What do you think? (BTW, I'm asking about the medical school, not the residency programs)

Honestly, who cares? They are both great schools with great reputations. If you feel you are being prepared well there then it has good training. I think you need to pick a school you will be happy at....not one you think will beat you down but has a great reputation. Reputation goes only so far. You don't want to contemplate suicide in the middle of med school because you picked the wrong school. Sorry.
I chose the right school for me and I got my degree. I don't think I am an inferior clinician because I didn't go to Harvard or Yale or Michigan. I am in the residency I wanted and I didn't need reputation to get me there.

Another factor is dinero!!

If you go to a state school and live at home: loan repayment ~$60,000. Big name private institution loan repayment: tuition ~ $140,000 + $80,000 living expenses if out of state.

These things make a big difference when you're about to enter some of the longer resdencies and you can't really start paying back loans until you're 33+ years of age.

Also, clinical training comes from experience gained during your rotations. If you're talking about basic science (1st two years of med school), then you're big name schools are far far superior. However, for clinical training as a student, I would argue rotating at a run down hospital with no ancillary support allows students to do tons of procedural work like IVs, central lines, all kinds of suturing of lacerations, intubations . . .

But then again, your knowledge base would probably be helped a lot when you're taught on rounds by world renown clinicians, so I guess it's a give and take. Ultimately though, everything comes back to the dinero.

Most of your clinical training will come during residency, so I kind of look at medical school as a way to secure a good residency. If you finish at the top of your class and do well on your board exams, you'll secure a residency at one of those top notch school even if you come from a state school (and you get paid the around the same).

After having said all that, in the end, you got to go with the name I guess. It must be something ingrained into our competitive little heads. Honestly, had I gotten into Harvard, Yale, Wash U, I would have gone there for sure. But to put things into perspective, my buddy last year matched at Wash U for Urology and he'll probably have his loan payed off in two-three years of practice.

P.S. I do give props to those of you that go to the Harvards and Yales for medical school because if you guy/gals go into academics, you will be a chairman before me.

Peace:clap:

In terms of medical student clinical training, I'd say that the difference between them is probably negligable. Both will teach you what you need to know, and both have rep's that will help you get into good residencies. If you want to be really picky abou it though, I'd reccomend looking at Michagan's website and seeing if you can find out what third and fourth year required clerkships they have. Some state schools (such as mine) send all of their students away during fourth year for rural rotations as part of program that allows them to get state funding (since states want to train doctors who will practice in their home state, preferably in underserved populations). I think Wash U has a good mix of required clinical third year clerkships too since they require ER during third year which is always good. I would let their financial aid package be the primary determinant of where you train. Sometimes Wash U can be pretty good in terms of FA if you are able to get one of their merit scholarships, but if you aren't, the michigan may be the way to go.

Another important question is where do you want to live for the next 4 years? In a "college town" or a midwest city? There is a big difference in life style with these 2 locations and 4 years can be a long time. I eliminated both of these programs as residency choices because I do not want to live in either place. You are probably still young enough that the college town environment might still be appealing.

My biggest concern is the overall difficulty of the 3rd year core clerkships--I want them to be as difficult as possible. I'm not a masochist. My reasoning is that I don't want to be completely annihilated as an intern; I reckon that the more difficult my clinical rotations are, the less painful my first year of residency will be. One of my friends is an intern at Duke (internal medicine residency), and he told me that the best preparation for residency is a set of core clerkships that are brutally difficult. The tougher the better. So which school offers the most difficult rotations--i.e., the best preparation for the 1st year of residency? WashU or UMich?

Originally posted by elias514
What do you think? (BTW, I'm asking about the medical school, not the residency programs)

Hey.. I agree that they're both equal schools, but go to Michigan... the football is better! :clap:

Originally posted by elias514
My biggest concern is the overall difficulty of the 3rd year core clerkships--I want them to be as difficult as possible. I'm not a masochist. My reasoning is that I don't want to be completely annihilated as an intern; I reckon that the more difficult my clinical rotations are, the less painful my first year of residency will be. One of my friends is an intern at Duke (internal medicine residency), and he told me that the best preparation for residency is a set of core clerkships that are brutally difficult. The tougher the better. So which school offers the most difficult rotations--i.e., the best preparation for the 1st year of residency? WashU or UMich?

Medical education is what you make of it. A slacker in the most difficult clinical programs will still be incompetent; whereas, a hard worker and enthusiastic student in the easiest of clinicial programs will be prepared for all future challenges. The tools for success in clinical medicine is inside not external.

My friends at WashU said their clinicals are demanding and rewarding. Don't know anything about UMich.

Does WashU even have a football team?

Originally posted by elias514
Does WashU even have a football team?

Yeah, it's Div-III....they're so bad, they actually recruited me to play years back.:laugh:

Originally posted by quicksilver2000
If you're talking about basic science (1st two years of med school), then you're big name schools are far far superior.

How do you prove this or even believe this? In this day and age, med school curriculum should be fairly standardized. I can't imagine that a students education at one school is so different from anothers at a supposedly lesser school.
Students at some of these lesser schools really shouldn't be scoring off the charts on their boards if their education was sub-par. Med school and residency education is all self motivation. When you go to a med school you are really paying for the name on your degree.

As far as the general surgery rotations go, the UMich students are handled w/kid gloves. I can't believe how easy they have it! Even on the tough rotations, like vascular and trauma, they still don't put in the kind of hours I put in as a med student at my no-name state school. In addition, they really don't get much hands-on experience. My co-residents who were med students here hadn't so much as put in a central line when we started as interns, nor had they ever intubated anyone. I actually work less as a surgical resident at Michigan than I did as a med student at my school. This is ONLY regarding surgery, though--I can't speak to the other clerkships, though I've heard the medicine one is pretty tough.

Great insight LaCirujana:D

jashanley:

I do actually agree with you 100%. Med school and residency is all about self-motivation and study since everyone essentially learns the same material. I was just trying to make a counterpoint to justify paying extra to go to a private big name institution. There are over ten students (not me!) who scored >250 Step 1 at my state school and most likely they all will match into ivy league residencies if that's what they want.

As I'm making my rank list for general surgery, I am having a really hard time deciding whether going to a big name surgery residency is worth moving away.

Take care.

It was posted somewhere above that WashU requries ER for its third year- not true. I did not take it. It's an elective, but lots of students do take it. Also, the WashU third year is completely and totally what you make of it. Compare two of my classmates:

1.) Wanted to go into psychiatry. Did 12 weeks of incredibly easy surgical rotations, as she knew she did not like or want to be involved with surgery too much. Had easier medicine rotations.

2.) Student B, whom I personally think is a bit crazy, did 12 weeks of incredibly hard surgical rotations (vascular, CT, and general) where she took call voluntarily with the residents because she enjoyed it. She also had 12 weeks of ward medicine, because she chose to do things that way.

Bottom line: Third year can be tailored pretty easily at WashU, as long as you listen to upperclassmen and your classmates who have already done third year. I took a middle-of-the-road pathway, with some pretty tough rotations and some breathers. Just my philosophy. I really liked the fact that there really was variety present for all the different students.

Hope this helps the original poster's question.

I tried so hard to understand and in the end it didn't even matter.


+pity+

I totally agree with Quicksilver, who said you get more out of your clinicals as a student if you work at more run-down hospitals. A place like Wash U is great for residents b/c the hospital is so efficient, but med students don't get to do much b/c of it. I don't know much about Michigan, but LaCirujana says its the same there too.

My med school made us work our tails off on our clinicals. Maybe we didn't get as much study time to increase our USMLE scores like some prestigeous schools do, but at least I know how to put in a foley and a bunch of other little skills that people who went to schools with great nursing staff don't get to do.

If you want to get into a primo residency and become chairman somewhere, go for the big names. If you want to be a hard-working resident with practical knowlege (and still have a shot at the big name residencies), go somewhere with the most run-down, understaffed hospital you can find b/c that's where you get to do a lot.

No matter where you go, be interested and ask your residents lots of questions and be aggressive about finding opportunities to do things, it is what you make of it.

Originally posted by fourthyear
No matter where you go, be interested and ask your residents lots of questions and be aggressive about finding opportunities to do things, it is what you make of it.

Absolutely true! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've given poor evals for students who are disinterested, don't ask questions, and don't read before coming to clinic.

You give out poor evals as a resident??

Sorry, but I have never given a medical student a bad evaluation, even if they were sh*t. The bottom line is that success in medicine is all about YOU. Even if you are at the worst program in the country, the knowledge you need to have is available, but it is up to you, and how willing to work/study to get it. If a medical student comes in to my reading room disinterested, I send them home, why do I give a sh*t?? If they are motivated in life and medicine in general, they will be fine, otherwise, they deal with their own failures. I guess I still remember what it was like to be a med student forced to do rotations in stuff I had no real interest in. We are all adults, and judging 25+ year old adults just doesn't seem like something I should be doing.

This obsession with names is really stupid. The place you will be most happy is where you will be the most successful.