Hi Guys

I set up this thread for a close friend of mine who wants to know more than WHAT I THINK of his DAT and GPA scores.

You guys can post few schools that he could get into if you dont mind.

Here are his scores:

He is a Minority student, applying very EARLY in the cycle - May, 2004 for fall 2005.

GPA: 3.5 - Sci: 3.4

DAT: Organic-19, GC-19, TS-18, Bio-17, PAT-17, AA-17, RC-15, QR-14

Thanks Fellas n Fillets :)

20% of you said he should re-take it! - I dont see WHY! - some people got in with scores much lower than that.

I guess SDN attracts the top tier applicants - and they see themselves as standard applicants.

80% of people also think you have a fair/great chance! Of course, objectivity is not the only thing that matters! He should try not to be so sensitive or reactive to the opinions he was asking for. It seems that you or he already had something in mind [ie. thought the scores were OK] and were looking for a mere justification of an opinion you or he already had. If your friend is happy with his scores then he should not re-take it. In terms of objectivity, he IS right smack in the middle. I would recommed re-taking it to merely insure a greater competitive edge. Competition is surely increasing for dental school admittance. Tell him to just be aware of this and take all the measures he deems sufficient to provide him the best shot at getting in. If he doubts his scores, then he should try to aim for a set of scores that he will no longer doubt.

He is happy about his results and feels confident he will get in somewhere - providing he applies early for the next cycle. He doesnt have a shot at this stage, I told him and he knows it.

My question was built on for 2005 admission, even though competition is rising, applying early adds benefits to be competitive with those scores.

WoW, 20 out of 24 of you think he has potential chances...

Thanks for raising his confidence guys. He is applying to Nova/Case/Unc/UofL/IUSD... and to be honest thats good enough for all of those schools.

Any criticisms?

17's across the board make a competitive DAT. Not bad, not great, but competitive. Ditto a 3.5 GPA. He'll get interviews with that, and the final decisions will probably be based on how he represented himself at those interviews. Good luck to him.

Applying "Early" should make him more competitive due to the competition in the early stages being moderate.

wait a min... your friend has a 17 AA while having 2 19's and a 17... he must have gotten 14's on reading and math. Most schools dont like to see that.

my 2 cents!

now that I know his RC and QR score, i change my vote to this guy has no chance unless he retakes the DAT

Originally posted by Mo007
Yes you are right Comet, he did get RC-15 and QR-14.

Now - which schools wouldnt accept his overall Stats?

Good GPA and TS/PAT scores can be good enough for him to be competitive if he applies early.

85% of the poll shows his chances are Good.

85% because they didn't know he got 15 & 14.

By the way, he called a lot of schools and he was told his stats are good enough for him to be a candidate for early application. I think many people in SDN set high standards, where in reality it is much different... My friends DAT scores maybe just about National Average, but his GPA is really good.

Now, honestly! - (assuming you was the adcoms on an average school) - would you turn him down?

Originally posted by Mo007
WoW, 20 out of 24 of you think he has potential chances...

Thanks for raising his confidence guys. He is applying to Nova/Case/Unc/UofL/IUSD... and to be honest thats good enough for all of those schools.

Any criticisms?

UNC with those scores? what a joke:laugh:

Originally posted by politicallyRite
UNC with those scores? what a joke:laugh:

You are good at motivating people, or was it a keyboard malfunction?

Its true that SDN is inflated, but not by that much!! Your friend's scores are very low, and Im 99% sure that people will ask him to retake his DAT...who cares if his GPA is 3.5....Unless he went to Columbia undergrad, a 14/15 DAT score will kill him....

Be nice... He did well on his sciences and PAT... give him credits.

He has a lot of extra-curricular activities and he is a minority student... maybe you are right avingupta - he should be rejected by all schools with his academic stats.

Be nice... He did well on his sciences and PAT... give him credits

TS = 18, PAT=17

These scores do not deserve credit...Im sorry to be blunt...if all his scores were like this, it would still be low, but given his GPA, I would expect a few acceptences...but when adcoms see these scores along with the 14 and 15....they are gonna pass on him for sure and tell him to retake the DAT...

And him being a minority student will help him, BUT I dont know if its gonna overshadow the low DAT score...just my personal opinion.

If you want a real consenus about his chances, redo this poll with ALL THE INFORMATION, and Im positive you will see a complete change of votes...

Good DAT scores... sounds like he will get in somewhere for sure with that GPA and Minority status.

Originally posted by skypilot
Good DAT scores... sounds like he will get in somewhere for sure with that GPA and Minority status.

Now... THAT's a honest opinion. Applying in May is all he has to do to get into many places but not all.

looks like you finally got the answer you wanted for your friend. Only took 5 responses to get there. Were the other opinions not honest?

Originally posted by zimaad
looks like you finally got the answer you wanted for your friend. Only took 5 responses to get there. Were the other opinions not honest?

Other opinions were fine... criticisms are always around the corner on anything you say on SDN anyways.

Moo,

seriously, i think that this friend of yours is taking a big chance with those kind of scores.

yes his GPA is very good. yes most of his scores are at or slightly above the avg. however, i think that the 15 and 14 will stand out as a red flag. i know my 15 in RC has been killing me in this cycle.

he has plenty of time to retake and get ready for the nest cycle. why not retake it and do a little better and have that peace of mind?

I agree PERFECT3435... I voted for a "re-take", even though that was his 2nd DAT.

Again, lets remember people, he is applying early in May for 2005 which should raise his chances, and his minority status too.

Some schools might give him a chance, I dont expect all will...

btw,

i really think anything is possible. there are people that got accepted with a 14 in QR in this cycle. i have also known people who got accepted before they even took the DAT. most schools won't even look at your app until its all complete so i have no idea how you can get accepted without your DAT's.

so bottom line, anything can happen. another thing is that, the people that do get accepted with low scores or gpa must have other aspects of their app that really stand out.
no one will ever know.

good luck to your friend and you as well.

PERFECT

Thanks for sharing your views on this thread. My friend is heading off to Summer Program at Columbia which is structured like the 1st year of Dental School Curriculum, with a lot of Clinical Exposure... If he does well in that, that might be a PLUS on his application, and adcoms like to view that in addition to scores from DAT and GPA.

BTW: The Columbia Program is a 6 week program, primarily for Minority Students applying to Dental Schools. Columbia Adcoms are involved for recruitment purposes too.

If your friend applies early and casts a wide net he will be perfectly fine.

Originally posted by sxr71
If your friend applies early and casts a wide net he will be perfectly fine.

Tufts has offered him a spot today, even though he is not planning to attend Dental School this fall. Tufts cut off points are GPA 3.3, TS-16, PAT-14.. and he had much higher than those as you saw on the 1st post.

Tufts class size is about 140-150, and tuition is in the high 30's.

So, applying early to a lot of schools is definetly going to land him a "spot" somewhere, depending on his interviews skills.

When did he apply to Tufts? That's really good that he got an acceptance from them. I applied late (November) and even though I have higher stats (lower GPA, but significantly higher DAT scores), I haven't heard from Tufts yet.

Is your friend considering attending Tufts? Sometimes there is value in saving a year of time.

Originally posted by sxr71
When did he apply to Tufts?

Well, he called the admissions office this morning - and they told him the acceptances were going out, and his one was one of them.

They did tell him the class was not filled yet, so they are waiting to hear from students.

Originally posted by Mo007
Well, he called the admissions office this morning - and they told him the acceptances were going out, and his one was one of them.

They did tell him the class was not filled yet, so they are waiting to hear from students.


It's good to hear that they have space available. I am learning that the east coast schools work on a later schedule that the midwest schools. For example I applied in November and am only in contention for the alternate lists of the two schools in my state - Ohio. Both schools told me that I applied too late for consideration for the regular list.


I was wondering just out of curiosity when your friend sent in his application if you don't mind me asking.

Originally posted by sxr71
am only in contention for the alternate lists of the two schools in my state - Ohio.

Hey, am from Columbus, Ohio. Just being 2 schools in that state, with both average sized classes - is SOLD-OUT - from January in every year.

He applied back in October, I think you should hear something pretty soon from Tufts. If they have some spots open, and your stats are better than his, I think you shouldn't worry... depending on how you did on your interview.

BTW: Which school in Ohio would you go for if you got accepted to both? and why?

Moo.

i am very happy that your friend got in. it just goes to show you that anything really is possible.

i ihave one question for you. do you think your friend would ever post anything on SDN himself?

I'm VERY surprised he got in Tufts with those DATs..

I had a 20/21/18 with a mid 3 GPA and was flat out REJECTED.

go figure!

Originally posted by ShawnOne
I'm VERY surprised he got in Tufts with those DATs..

I had a 20/21/18 with a mid 3 GPA and was flat out REJECTED.

go figure!

If you go to Tufts website - it clearly shows last year's incoming class's profile - with averages of AA-18's and PAT-17's.

If you have those DAT scores, I dont think you have been rejected on the basis of your DAT performance - I am certain 90% of Dental schools would accept you with that, but then - the rest of your application would have to be reasonable enough to be considered.

So, If someone got in to Tufts with GPA 3.5 and 17/17/18... and someone with 20/21/18 didnt - something is really wrong there.

Did they mention "why" they rejected you?, because they still have some spots open for the Class of 2008 as of Today.

Good Luck

Originally posted by ShawnOne
I'm VERY surprised he got in Tufts with those DATs..

I had a 20/21/18 with a mid 3 GPA and was flat out REJECTED.

go figure!
Hmm... maybe I'm just paranoid, but could you have been tanked by one of your LOR writers? That's the only thing I can think of, and it's been known to happen on rare occasion.

trypmo

That's a very "mean" possibility. I hate to be the one who brought this issue up - but it doesnt make sense - especially with Tufts - those DAT scores are very COMPETITIVE from ShawnOne.

Either the REJECTION was due to a very late application or simply a bad day at the interview - anything more is beyond me.

I know Acceptances become more difficult towards the end of the cycle - but still - his Stats should get him in at this particular school. He statistfied the REQUIREMENTS for GPA/DAT - maybe something else did hurt his chances of getting into that school.

Could it be his Personality?

he got flat out rejection (no interview). i guess your friend's URM status helped.

Originally posted by Mo007
trypmo

That's a very "mean" possibility. I hate to be the one who brought this issue up - but it doesnt make sense - especially with Tufts - those DAT scores are very COMPETITIVE from ShawnOne.

I totally agree; it is an extremely mean possibility, and truly inexcusable behavior, when it happens, on the part of LOR writers. Sometimes that's the only explanation you're left with when everything else has been eliminated (and other times you actually know for sure).

Also, "tanking" can be outright or it can be extremely subtle on the part of a letter writer, like damning with faint praise and stuff like that.

It was just a thought. I hope to heaven most LOR writers aren't that mean (especially, like, mine when the time comes)! :scared:

You need the right people to write you the LOR - thats the whole idea - but that is not good enough explanation - because assumption is not the right approach.

So, if someone gets REJECTED without any explanation - then I think the applicant has the right to know - WHY he/she was REJECTED? - even "flat-out" rejections should come with a reason - if not stated on the rejection letter - then the adcoms should make the reason available for the applicant if requested.

Originally posted by Mo007
You need the right people to write you the LOR - thats the whole idea - but that is not good enough explanation - because assumption is not the right approach.

So, if someone gets REJECTED without any explanation - then I think the applicant has the right to know - WHY he/she was REJECTED? - even "flat-out" rejections should come with a reason - if not stated on the rejection letter - then the adcoms should make the reason available for the applicant if requested.

From my experience in the business world, I know companies will never give you a reason as to why you were not offered a position. The biggest reason is liability. By disclosing some of the weaknesses in an application it opens up the possibility for lawsuits (such as letter writers, previous employers etc.). I'd imagine that the same issues apply to schools as well.

Probably.

It's a UNIVERSAL B.S.:laugh:

Just to clear things up...

I had 4 LORs. 3 from professors, 1 from dentist.

After the LORs were sent, the professors emailed me a copy. All three were very positive.

My letter from the dentist was GREAT. I have a great relationship with my mentor, and he wrote me a kick-ass letter.

I applied in mid June. Definately not late.

I was told my pesonal statement was good by a couple interviewers.

I have had a perfect 4.0 in my last 60 units (including all my BCP classes)

negatives:
my application lacks research experience. I had none.
I got a 16 in RC which was offset by a 25 in ochem. (other scores were 20's)

I was not granted an interview at Tufts. Just a straight out rejection. I was also not granted an interview at Loma Linda (no surprise, I'm jewish), Arizona (I wrote a real $hitty essay on the secondary just to finish it), and Tufts (I have no idea why).

Originally posted by ShawnOne
Just to clear things up...

I had 4 LORs. 3 from professors, 1 from dentist.

After the LORs were sent, the professors emailed me a copy. All three were very positive.

My letter from the dentist was GREAT. I have a great relationship with my mentor, and he wrote me a kick-ass letter.

I applied in mid June. Definately not late.

I was told my pesonal statement was good by a couple interviewers.

I have had a perfect 4.0 in my last 60 units (including all my BCP classes)

negatives:
my application lacks research experience. I had none.
I got a 16 in RC which was offset by a 25 in ochem. (other scores were 20's)

I was not granted an interview at Tufts. Just a straight out rejection. I was also not granted an interview at Loma Linda (no surprise, I'm jewish), Arizona (I wrote a real $hitty essay on the secondary just to finish it), and Tufts (I have no idea why).


Don't worry about research, you don't need it to get into a good school. I don't understand why Tufts could have rejected you. Have you heard from BU?

yeah, actually I was accepted to BU and I turned them down.

I was also accepted to Nova and UNLV.

Although I absolutely LOVED Nova, I plan on going to Las Vegas baby!

ShawnOne

Whichever Dental School fits your personality is the better school for you. Afterall, they are all equally important and capable of making you a Dentist, and being a better Dentist can only be determined after Dental School.

You Bet.

shawn.

i am glad that you aren't going to BU. i hope you didn't give them the deposit.

A minority student will get in with those DAT scores and his GPA is good. However, he should retake the DAT anyway. How can you have a 3.5 GPA and 14/15 on any part of the dat unless it was the PAT.

Originally posted by Mo007
Hi Guys

I set up this thread for a close friend of mine who wants to know more than WHAT I THINK of his DAT and GPA scores.

You guys can post few schools that he could get into if you dont mind.

Here are his scores:

He is a Minority student, applying in May for fall 2005.

GPA: 3.5 - Sci: 3.4

DAT: Organic-19, GC-19, TS-18, Bio-17, PAT-17, AA-17, RC-15, QR-14

Thanks Fellas n Fillets :)

The only concern are the RC and QR scores. Usually when an applicant has a low RC score, the dental schools will tend to look at the English mark(s) to see if there is any correlation. If there is, dental schools might ask your friend to retake the DAT to improve on the RC score. Hopefully your friend has good English mark(s).

As for QR scores, many of the dental school do not take heavy consideration to this, and since your friend has competitive science GPA and DAT scores, this will be overlooked.

Originally posted by The Musketeer
The only concern are the RC and QR scores. Usually when an applicant has a low RC score, the dental schools will tend to look at the English mark(s) to see if there is any correlation. If there is, dental schools might ask your friend to retake the DAT to improve on the RC score. Hopefully your friend has good English mark(s).

As for QR scores, many of the dental school do not take heavy consideration to this, and since your friend has competitive science GPA and DAT scores, this will be overlooked.

That's an interesting point - because his English and Math courses are A's - so it doesnt mean he is terrible at MATH nor ENGLISH, it could simply be a bad day on the DAT.

Well, at least about 65%-70% of you who voted so far think he will be fine. :)

Here is what someone PM'ed me - regarding the topic on this thread:

PM to Mo007
I got into Tufts, and have similar stats, Bio 19, g-chem 20, Ochem 21, reading comp 14, Quantative reasoning 15, Pat 19. Your stats look pretty good you should get accepted to BU and Tufts.

Even though many of you think its not possible to get into Dental School with some 17's, 18's and 19's - then what exactly that's the National Average say about getting into Dental School? - a slim Chance?

Mo007, those are solid stats, do your self a favor, go tell your friend to take a little break, and right when june hits..... apply. I am sure that your friend ;) will get in!:clap: :clap:

Quick Slvr

No more :( , No more :confused: , and definetly no more :scared: .

Good Luck with Tufts.

Dude, you have enough opinions. Do us all a favor now and just *. You continually bump this thread meaning that you obviously have nothing better to do in your life than start and continue stupid conversations about some * none of us have ever met.

clap:



*edited by DrMom*

Originally posted by primerz
... Do us all a favor now and just STFU... you obviously have nothing better to do in your life than start and continue stupid conversations about some ********er none of us have ever met... Here's a good site you might like www.moveon.org...

Wow!

First of all, I am not going to make a showdown out of those remarks, but I am so astonished with this aggression, and wonder how any moderator will allow that to stand.

2nd of all, SDN is about helping each other, not a place to slur on other people, even if you feel to do so. I don't understand why your attitude to my queries on this thread is pessimistic, and what exactly makes you think it's wrong to continue getting more opinions from other members. If you find this thread annoying, then don't share your insolence with the people that this thread might concern.

If you have something personal to say - PM me, but dont post your nuisance, and feel good about it.

Get better sarcastic jokes. :D

*edited by DrMom*

multiple TOS violations

primerz

"Banned" is my favorite sin. :laugh:

you know i really don't understand why people start things like primerz.


if you don't like it, LEAVE. you don't have to read it.
unfortunately, there are few other immature kids like him still fooling around SDN and will hopefully be banned as well.

I'm relatively new to SDN, and this is the first time I've seen this thread. That being said, I know why you had a 20% response of "retake". It's because you failed to mention what schools your friend was applying to. Certainly the GPA was good, but the scores were only average. So if you listed schools that were traditionally less competitive (in terms of incoming class scores), I'm sure the 20% "retake" reply would have been a lot lower.

Originally posted by HBomb888
I'm relatively new to SDN, and this is the first time I've seen this thread. That being said, I know why you had a 20% response of "retake". It's because you failed to mention what schools your friend was applying to. Certainly the GPA was good, but the scores were only average. So if you listed schools that were traditionally less competitive (in terms of incoming class scores), I'm sure the 20% "retake" reply would have been a lot lower.

The 3 things to consider on top of the stats are:

1. Applying in May.
2. Minority Status.
3. Applying to his State Schools - Ohio State (and other private schools like Case, Tufts and Nova).

Having emphasised that in the begining, fewer people might have said "re-take" the DAT. The poll still shows that this applicant will have small problems getting in to those schools, and majority of the private schools.

Originally posted by Mo007
The 3 things to consider on top of the stats are:

1. Applying in May.
2. Minority Status.
3. Applying to his State Schools - Ohio State (and other private schools like Case, Tufts and Nova).

Having emphasised that in the begining, fewer people might have said "re-take" the DAT. The poll still shows that this applicant will have small problems getting in to those schools, and majority of the private schools.

I don't know a lot about Case, Tufts and Nova, but I guess my point was that if the candidate wanted to go to these schools in particular (and if the DAT scores were competitive for these schools), then it wouldn't make too much sense to retake the DAT. If, on the other hand, the candidate wanted to also see if he/she could get into say Harvard (I'm taking the extreme case), then I'd say retake. Obviously there are some schools that would make a grey, middle ground.

Sounds like things worked out for your friend (with Tufts, correct?).

Yep.

Originally posted by ShawnOne
Just to clear things up...

I had 4 LORs. 3 from professors, 1 from dentist.

After the LORs were sent, the professors emailed me a copy. All three were very positive.

My letter from the dentist was GREAT. I have a great relationship with my mentor, and he wrote me a kick-ass letter.

I applied in mid June. Definately not late.

I was told my pesonal statement was good by a couple interviewers.

I have had a perfect 4.0 in my last 60 units (including all my BCP classes)

negatives:
my application lacks research experience. I had none.
I got a 16 in RC which was offset by a 25 in ochem. (other scores were 20's)

I was not granted an interview at Tufts. Just a straight out rejection. I was also not granted an interview at Loma Linda (no surprise, I'm jewish), Arizona (I wrote a real $hitty essay on the secondary just to finish it), and Tufts (I have no idea why).

You have an awesome application with solid grades, and a solid DAT (one 16 won't hurt you since the rest of your scores are solid). I can't understand for the life of me what Tufts has on their mind. I have what I feel to be good stats and I haven't heard anything from them. I am expecting my rejection to come soon (what else if I haven't been invited to interview yet?). This process is the weirdest thing sometimes. I seriously wonder if there is an upper cut off sometimes (and I'm not trying to be arrogant when I say that). It's almost like a school telling you that they don't really want to improve their stats and they want to keep it right where it is.

Originally posted by sxr71
This process is the weirdest thing sometimes. I seriously wonder if there is an upper cut off sometimes (and I'm not trying to be arrogant when I say that). It's almost like a school telling you that they don't really want to improve their stats and they want to keep it right where it is.

Maybe.... Here is one possibility.

We all know most schools strongly emphasize - an incomplete application means NO interview, regardless of how good your GPA/DAT scores are. Even though you think your application is complete, it's wise to check with the school they have things in order... just to be on the safe side.

I can't think of any other reason - when someone who has the stats like ShawnOne is rejected with no logical reason (It would be interesting to know what the reasons were on the actual rejection letter).

That's the only thing I can think off.... Admission's Office Organization Errors, which could easily lead to incomplete files. Who can really say that can NEVER happen? - when a school gets so many applications, things can slip-up... specially schools with a large application pool.

Oh well... I guess it pays off to apply to multiple-schools afterall.

That's the only thing I can think off.... Admission's Office Organization Error, which could easily lead to incomplete files. Who can really say that can NEVER happen? - when a school gets so many applications, things can slip-up... specially schools with a large application pool.

Oh well... I guess it pays off to apply to multiple-schools afterall.

Mo007,

Great point. I think this happens more often than anyone of us would like to believe. I just imagine it so easy for some documents or files get lost...or perhaps unattended to. A friend of mine (recent dental school graduate) told me that this is one reason why I should consistently check up/call the admissions offices to all the schools that I've applied, so that they can put a voice to a name to a file, and perhaps lowering the chances of things being misplaced.

Schools expect you to monitor the status of your file (Complete or Incomplete) by calling the admission's office... and it doesn't even take 1 mins.

Imagine getting rejected due to an incomplete file... and your stats were very competitive. It's a critical responsibility that many take for granted.

apply AS an earliest bird!!!!

just apply early, i'm sure you'll get in if you apply early!

Some schools just do not want to talk to applicants at all. For example every time I called Tufts they asked me several times whether I've checked my status on Infosource before letting me speak to someone who has access to admissions information. After being very assertive about speaking to someone who really has something to do with admissions, all I got was "your application is complete and is under review, please check infosource for future status updates." One time I got a whole explanation of how they received a record number of applicants this year, that they don't have time to answer everybody who calls and that people should just check Infosource. Quite frankly the message I got was far from "Schools expect you to monitor the status of your file (Complete or Incomplete) by calling the admission's office..." and closer to "please stop calling us and bothering us."

On the contrary some schools have been absolutely a joy to contact by phone. Columbia stands out in this way, Dr. McMannus picks up the phone personally most of the time. UOP was a good experience in that the person who picked up was able to access my application and look at my stats and give me valuble information (however the previous times I called them I got the standard "your app is in review"). UMICH was also great in that the person who picked up was knowledgeable and had application status information every time I called. Even at NYU you can get connected to Amy Knowles who is very professional and can give you first hand information on your application.

Anyhow, after hearing that your application is complete and under review there's really nothing you can do unless you are local to the school.

"please stop calling us and bothering us."

I think many schools believe in info-source so much... they just don't realize how usless the service can be when it comes to specific information about the applicant's status.

I think they should change the updating recurrency. AADSAS should consider making it at least twice a week. That way, school's can update the information mid-week and end of week... they can make a full use of this system.

Some schools are not even part of infosource, and have poor admission's office status checkers! - sometimes, you just have to accept these hussles that is not worth our $$$.

just apply early, i'm sure you'll get in if you apply early!

Hope so. :thumbup: