I am a MS-3 at Ross, any lately, I have been questioning the decision that I made 2 years ago to go to the Caribbean. Maybe I should have accepted the admission offers from the D.O. schools I applied to. Or Maybe I should have waited another year and reapplied to US Allopathic schools.

Do not take me wrong. The education at Ross is great and my USMLE 1 score is well above average. It is just that I do not know which state I will be practicing in, so I am constantly worrying about the different state licensure rules and being limited to practice in certain states, which will in turn limit my job opportunities. I also hate the agony of arguing with the Ross Clinical Department to change my schedule so that every core and elective that I do is done in a "green book" hospital that has an ACGME residency program in the area of that particular core or elective.

I am sorry for the rambling.........

Any way, any regrets from the Caribbean graduates/alumni? Any problems with state licensure, or frustrations over being limited in your job searching because of barriers placed by state licensing boards.

Thank you

I would not worry too much if I were you it sounds like you'll make out fine with your board scores.I'm not sure why all the fuss about where you do your rotations in med school..there are literally thousands of FMGs who trained in India,Pakistan etc..now practicing in virtually all US states who did not do even one rotation in an approved US hospital as medical students!

Originally posted by ny skindoc
..there are literally thousands of FMGs who trained in India,Pakistan etc..now practicing in virtually all US states who did not do even one rotation in an approved US hospital as medical students!

Those people (true FMGs) are in a different boat. They do not have to worry about their clinical rotations because rotations done in foreign countries are exempt from being "green book".

For example, Texas does not require a graduate from India to prove that his/her medical school is "substantially equivalent" to the medical schools in Texas to get licensed in that state. St. George, Ross, etc..... graduates on the other hand are having trouble getting licensed in Texas.

I'm a ross Graduate. I'm finishing my 3rd year in Family Practice.
My advice is to do all your rotations in a teaching hospital. Try not to do them in a D.O. teaching hospital. If you do that you will not have problems with getting a license. You may have to do more foot work to get t he license but you can get it. Ross has a good reputation. They have been around a long time.
Don't listen to all the talk that goes on. It's just talk. Just pass the boards get residency (and you will get one) and then go from there.
Many states require that fmg's do at least 3 years of residency before they can get a license. There are at least 10 that don't.
some say you need 2 years. some will do it if you have done one year. Once you have done residency in any state and you get a license in any state, then it gets easier to get another because you have proven yourself.

EH.

hey. i'm finishing up at sgu and have absolutely no regrets. i would def. do it all over again. ross kids do really well for residencies as well...many of the chiefs in the ny area for im were from ross.

i think you might run into some problems in states like texas and california but if you def. want to do residency or practice in those particular states, do the research right now and make sure you do your neuro, FP rotations or get your california letter, etc so you don't get screwed later. most of my classmates who wanted to go to texas or cali were able to go back to their home states. of course, it was for fp, im (usc, ucla), and neuro (baylor!) but if there is a will there is def. a way (one even got ortho at UTSW!!). I don't think residency would be as big of a deal but i hear getting your license in texas is a bit tough so you might want to look into that..but i think the rest of the country is pretty much fair game!!

all the best..you'll do fine! just keep doing your thing!

If you are an "above average" student you should be fine in pursuing most residency fields. Of course, Derm, NeuroSurg, Rads, and ENT will be tough. In general you'll be fine. I scored a categorical ANE position at a University program. My board scores were also "above average." Life is good from my perspective. Hang in there.

I'm not sure why anyone would ever go to a carribean medical school over an osteopathic school. Every single issue(loan options, living conditions, residency options, student body environment, licensure, etc) is easily tilted in facor of osteopathic schools.

Except that you have a DO behind your name.

I'm not sure why anyone would ever go to a carribean medical school over an osteopathic school. Every single issue(loan options, living conditions, residency options, student body environment, licensure, etc) is easily tilted in facor of osteopathic schools.


DO isn't a great plan for people who plan on working internationally.

Whats wrong with having a "D.O." behind your name? Its better than having to go to the Carribean schools and getting laughed at when you cant get a good job in the US.

Good luck EMTO36, you're going to need it!!!

Whats wrong with having a "D.O." behind your name? Its better than having to go to the Carribean schools and getting laughed at when you cant get a good job in the US.

Good luck EMTO36, you're going to need it!!!
Actually my post was in jest... I felt that spinestudent's previous post was so uninformed, prejudicial and moronic that it deserved a similar reply on the other side of the coin. Unfortunately, your latest post isn't much better.

I have no problems with DO's -- some of the most caring and kindest physicians in the hospital where I worked were DO's.

EMTO36:

OK, my bad, I was rude in what i wrote.

It just really came off as you blatantly bashing osteopathic medicine and physicians, and I had to defend my future profession.

I applogize, no hard feelings??

Hey no problem. I should have qualified the intent of my message sooner -- as it stood it was rude also. I appologize as well. No hard feelings :)

I hope no one gets offended but I for one don't want a DO behind my name. Sure IMG may make it a little more difficult getting a residency etc.. But after that its MD for your whole career. DO is forever. You have american docs and nurses who don't know what a DO is and don't respect them. Some might say that is minor or I should not go into medicine if I care what my title is, but if I bust my hump for 10 years, I should have whatever I am comfortable with and DO is not it. If you want DO great for you. If you don't THAT'S OK TOO !! But I don't think you should settle because like most things, if it bothers you now it will bother you in 20 years and you will be stuck with it. :thumbup:

I tend to disagree that "there are american docs who dont' know what a DO is." Perhaps they know little about what osteopathy is, but they know that the DO is a fellow physician/colleague. On the East coast, Midwest, and South there are a proportionately larger number of DO schools compared to the 2 DO schools in California, 1 in Arizona so osteopathy isn't an enigma. To top that off, Michigan and Oklahoma have state DO schools. Furethermore, I think only 10% of D.O.s practice osteopathy. As an allopathic doc, you are bound to see a D.O. and know they are a physician as well. I think some 15% or 20% of the Family Medicine physicians are DO's (correct me if I'm wrong) despite D.O.s being a significantly smaller proportion of physicians as a whole.

It's very feasible that some american nurses may not know a DO is a physician especially if they are younger and on the West Coast where if they are in one place, they may have never worked with one. On the other hand, they may have worked with one in the hospital and didn't even realize the physician was a DO and not an MD because initials aren't always plastered on your name tag.

I agree with you on your point that some people really, really want the M.D. and not D.O. behind their name. It doesn't really matter to me. I actually went M.D. because the D.O.'s have to work another 600+ hours studying OMM on top of usual M.D. curriculum. However, I would have gone D.O. if I had to over Carribean. There are alot of great D.O. docs. In fact, a handful of them teach at my allopathic school.

I hope no one gets offended but I for one don't want a DO behind my name. Sure IMG may make it a little more difficult getting a residency etc.. But after that its MD for your whole career. DO is forever. You have american docs and nurses who don't know what a DO is and don't respect them. Some might say that is minor or I should not go into medicine if I care what my title is, but if I bust my hump for 10 years, I should have whatever I am comfortable with and DO is not it. If you want DO great for you. If you don't THAT'S OK TOO !! But I don't think you should settle because like most things, if it bothers you now it will bother you in 20 years and you will be stuck with it. :thumbup:

a common mistake is the notion that getting a residency as a do is "easier" than IMG. PDs know that DOs and IMGs both failed to get into US allo schools (spare me your stories of the oddball who went DO for the theory and Ill spare you the story of the oddball who went IMG for the "expereince"). DOs do have DO only slots. But check out residency placement between DO schools and the best IMG schools before making the error in thinking one is simply easier than another. It comes down to a PD will go with what they are comfortable with. At my place there are more IMGs than DOs, but both are around. At another there may be more DOs. Its really what fits you. JUst do the leg work. both are viable and it may come down to which DO schools versus which IMG schools you get into. I'm pleased with my route and if you are with yours, way to go.
Steph

There are quite a few people who chose to attend a DO school vs. a US MD school when accepted to both. Just read some of the posts here. However, I have NEVER heard of someone choosing to go to St. George's over any US MD school. I mean NEVER. That's saying something. Also, the match list for St. George's is not that impressive and looks worse than most of the DO schools' match list. Just go to their website and check out the most recent match list. Sure, there are the rare exceptions that got excellent spots but that is out of a huge class (combining different entering classes). Just cause you got into rad onc at Hopkins doesn't mean anything for future applicants. I won't be surprised if Hopkins doesn't take any St. George's graduates for rad onc for another 50 yrs (assuming that school is still around in 50 yrs).

Whats wrong with having a "D.O." behind your name? Its better than having to go to the Carribean schools and getting laughed at when you cant get a good job in the US.

Good luck EMTO36, you're going to need it!!!

Do you consider being a Chief Resident at Johns Hopkins a good job?

Just curious, since that's stephew's current position and stephew attended a Carribean school. :)

Johnny

DO, MD . . . US graduate . . . FMG . . . why does it matter? As long as you get a license to practice medicine, who cares? I can give you first hand assurance that the vast majority of your patients (especially those in medically underserved areas) do not care what the intitals behind your name are; they just want to make sure you can help them; I thought that this is what medicine is truly about . . .

(Someone alluded to needing an MD to practice internationally in a previous post . . . the US DO degree is recognized in 50 countries . . so far.)

There are quite a few people who chose to attend a DO school vs. a US MD school when accepted to both. Just read some of the posts here. However, I have NEVER heard of someone choosing to go to St. George's over any US MD school. I mean NEVER. That's saying something. Also, the match list for St. George's is not that impressive and looks worse than most of the DO schools' match list. Just go to their website and check out the most recent match list. Sure, there are the rare exceptions that got excellent spots but that is out of a huge class (combining different entering classes). Just cause you got into rad onc at Hopkins doesn't mean anything for future applicants. I won't be surprised if Hopkins doesn't take any St. George's graduates for rad onc for another 50 yrs (assuming that school is still around in 50 yrs).

Yes, if I had gotten in at a US school, I would have gone there instead of SGU, but I think our recent residency placements are pretty darn good. The fact that stephew is from SGU and got into one of the most competitive fields at one of the most well-known programs gives the rest of us IMG's hope that with hard work and determination, it is possible to do what you want. Granted, IMG's do have hurdles to cross, but as stephew said, it's all about who a program feels most comfortable with.

And quite frankly, I think a program would be more open to at least consider a graduate from a particular school if their experience with others from that school has been positive. I may be wrong, of course. ;) Stephew, what are your plans when finished with residency?

a common mistake is the notion that getting a residency as a do is "easier" than IMG. PDs know that DOs and IMGs both failed to get into US allo schools (spare me your stories of the oddball who went DO for the theory and Ill spare you the story of the oddball who went IMG for the "expereince")

People that chose DO over MD are not "oddballs" by any stretch - it's a lot more common than you think.

Leukocyte,

I am also from Ross. I matched into my first choice this year for surgery. When the Ross match list from this year comes out you will feel much better. Don't worry about matching. If your scores are good then you will get the residency that you want. You will be able to do residency in any state that you want. If you have any questions just PM me. Good luck :luck:

GET REAL GUYS, md,do, it does not make a difference .
and really how many of you are going to go to work in another country?
come on, get over it.
EH.

what it comes down to is personal preference, and something to stroke the ego, but really what a dying or acutely ill person just want to know is "am I going to die? can you help me?" they don't give a damn about DO, or MD its the one's who are not on their death bed you gotta look out for, they watch out for your credentials like hawks. lol :laugh:

PDs know that DOs and IMGs both failed to get into US allo schools (spare me your stories of the oddball who went DO for the theory and Ill spare you the story of the oddball who went IMG for the "expereince").
I will probably go DO and did not "fail" to get into a US MD school. I am also not an oddball. I am really appalled that such an outrageous statement is coming from a moderator. :confused:

One of my best buddies turned down his acceptance to US allo school to go to AZCOM. Not common but folks do it.

I am a Saba grad. I don't regret it at all. I hardly ever went to class and barely ever studied during all six years of undergraduate study. And here I am an MD!

I would have probably gone to a DO school if I could have (I didn't apply to any med schools other that Saba).

Funny story is that when I was an intern I worked a month with a DO resident. He was very good. Two different times during my rotation patients we were admitting asked what a DO was. It really pissed him off.

At least with an MD you'll never have to explain what an MD is.

I personally have nothing against a DO... in fact, probably 2 or 3 out of the 5 best docs I ever worked with were DO, BUT it was the ignorance that made the decision for me. I had multiple patients who saw these same outstanding physicians in the ER, then told me later that they didn't trust them because they weren't a 'real doctor'. Of course, most of these folks were 70+ years old, and hadn't been educated about osteopathic medicine. I did my best to explain to them (in my limited understanding at the time) that the DO degree was comparable to the MD degree, just a different teaching pholosophy. Of course, they still weren't convinced, and I wasn't surprised. But regardless, this kind of attitude did influence me, as I knew for a fact that a certain number of patients will refuse to go to see a doctor if he wasn't an MD. Call it stupid, hardheaded, ignorant, whatever, it was a fact I had to confront.

Then there is the licensure issue in other countries. Some people are not interested in practicing outside the United States, and that's fine. But there are lots of us who are, whether on a permanent basis or a temporary basis, such as medical missions. My wife and I plan on both, and the DO degree is not (by my last investigation) accepted in her country of birth, therefore it was automatically ruled out in our case. At one time I actually thought I would prefer the DO mentality regarding teaching, but I am now glad I went the USIMG route at a reputable school. My licensure issues in the US will be a bit more of a headache, but if I do my homework ahead of time and follow the prescribed rules, I should be fine. This was the choice for me (I am one of those oddballs stephew spoke of choosing the offshore route for the 'experience', and damn proud of it) and the DO or US MD choice for others was theirs. Nothing wrong with that, and different situations call for different measures. I wish luck to any and all. I think the biggest problem we have in these matters is ignorance and elitism, neither of which should be condoned in a field as critical as medicine, but unfortunately are often not only condoned, but rewarded. I would like to do my little part to change that, by being a stellar physician who reflects well on the people who made the same choice I did.

Good luck!

Although we sometimes disagree, that was a kick a@@ post trmedic :thumbup:

here i am in the dilemma right now, i'm going thru every post to find what would be better for myself st george's or a u.s. do, i asked all the docs and residents that i worked with over the past few years and every one has an opinion but that's just it they' re all just opinions, no one can tell me a good answer. they have told me the conservative answers, like bottom line you're a minority if you become a d.o. what do you think it's going to be like for yourself competing against a stack of md's, the d.o.'s i know say it's great for the career choices they wanted to make but don't elaborate why they didnt take an offshore path when faced with md school rejections, the few st george grads i know say do the md it's safer in the long run. no one has told me the con's to what they chose to do, rather they slam the alternative,

it's seems you have to decide which battle you are willing to take on the rest of your life - yes my diploma says i went overseas or what's a d.o. from an ignorant patient, the u.s. md programs i have applied have wait listed me and flat out told me it's slim to none this year...

so what i'm really asking is for more people to revive this little debate and anyone that had to make the choice before to post some more pros and cons, foreign md vs do? any regrets ?

I was bored so I decided to reply...who cares what degree you have, if you keep thinking about it, you'll never be a good doctor, just go where your happy and comfortable cause either way MD, DO, IMG, medical school isn't easy...go to school for 4 years so you can learn how to help make people better. When I've shadowed doctors, most of them didn't care why I went to a DO school over an MD, I applied to all 3 USMD (Waitlisted), DO, and IMD school (SGU, ROSS)...I wanted to stay in the US cause I get gov't loans, my DO school along with Univ. Missouri -KC and University of Kansas Medical school all rotate professors, ex. we had pharm for our cardiology section, once KU ended their cario section he came to our school to teach us the same material...plus I like to environment and its cheaper than ROSS and SGU, the students help each other, its not an entire class of Gunner's who all try to be number 1. If people have problem with DO degree, its not just that one degree, they'll have other prejudices too...
FYI: Havard Medical school had a CME program on OMT
http://cme.med.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/hmscme.cgi?SECTION=CLASSES&ID=00241286&SO=N

You had darn well better think about it and preferably long and hard Bigworm ! And it does not bar you from being a good doctor. It makes you cautious and realistic which are daily limitations of the practice of medicine. If you don't mind being a DO stay in the US if you can. As I have stated previously , if you think that DO will bother you don't do it because it will still bother you in 20 years AND you will be stuck with it. If you don't want to be a DO don't let ANYBODY give you any crap about it !! IT IS OKAY TO HAVE A PREFERENCE !! If you bust your hump for 10 years get what you want. I have "HELPED PEOPLE GET BETTER" as a CNA, LPN & RN and I will still be attending medical school in 2006 If my plan stays on track. You have to answer the questions because you have to live with the answers and their consequences. Just give it some serious thought and decide what you want and to heck with anyone and their rosy it's all the same speech. Its only all the same if its all the same to you. Good luck :)

People that chose DO over MD are not "oddballs" by any stretch - it's a lot more common than you think.


Not really its not. I, as an IMG interested in med ed in general, know many DOs and have had this conversation. Its a fine education in general but most go into it because they failed to get into a U S allopathic school. Same with where I went to school.

I will probably go DO and did not "fail" to get into a US MD school. I am also not an oddball. I am really appalled that such an outrageous statement is coming from a moderator. :confused:
If its that easy to appall you I recommend youre not reading the daily news. Turn off CNN now. THAT is outrageous and appalling.

I think perhaps (perhaps) folks are taking issue with my use of "oddball". Dont take that too much to heart. I didnt mean "Weirdo". I meant merely someone taking the unusual route. But I stand by my statement that most DOs just like most IMGs, take that path because they failed to get into a US allopathic school.

I also stand by the notion that it is generally poor idea to choose to go overseas rather than go to a US allopathic school.By all means, medic, go out, be out standing and make all of us IMGs look good. But I would advise anyone who gets into a US MD program to take that route. Will that not be the best decision for every single person? -that's a rhetorical question. But it will be right for vast vast majority.

In the end I would say that anyone who shuns a DO degree because they want an "MD" behind their name should re-think why they're doing this medicine thing in the first place. Equally Id say that anyone who things the DO route is patently better than the IMG route is misguided. In short if you are choosing between DO or IMG, you've got a lot of work cut out for you; look at what schools are accepting you, then look at the outcomes for their grads. Then look at your personal needs and make your decision.

And finally, for the love of all things good and right, if these issues are the sort of things that make you take up arms, I can only say that you should count your blessings that these are the most stirring issues in your life and more power to you.

If its that easy to appall you I recommend youre not reading the daily news. Turn off CNN now. THAT is outrageous and appalling.

I think perhaps (perhaps) folks are taking issue with my use of "oddball". Dont take that too much to heart. I didnt mean "Weirdo". I meant merely someone taking the unusual route. But I stand by my statement that most DOs just like most IMGs, take that path because they failed to get into a US allopathic school.

I also stand by the notion that it is generally poor idea to choose to go overseas rather than go to a US allopathic school.By all means, medic, go out, be out standing and make all of us IMGs look good. But I would advise anyone who gets into a US MD program to take that route. Will that not be the best decision for every single person? -that's a rhetorical question. But it will be right for vast vast majority.

In the end I would say that anyone who shuns a DO degree because they want an "MD" behind their name should re-think why they're doing this medicine thing in the first place. Equally Id say that anyone who things the DO route is patently better than the IMG route is misguided. In short if you are choosing between DO or IMG, you've got a lot of work cut out for you; look at what schools are accepting you, then look at the outcomes for their grads. Then look at your personal needs and make your decision.

And finally, for the love of all things good and right, if these issues are the sort of things that make you take up arms, I can only say that you should count your blessings that these are the most stirring issues in your life and more power to you.

I agree about the oddball thing :thumbup: If someone using a word like oddball gets to you, then you're in for a world of hurt. :D

Anyone who is that "sensitive" should not even consider a career in public medicine.

J~

PD's favor DO over FMG's for the same reason they favor MD's over DO's. It's much tougher getting into a DO school than foreign medical school. Let's be honest, foreign medical schools essentially have no admissions process with the exception of SGU and even they are cakewalk as far as getting in. As far as skill is concerned, I know many FMG's that are amazing doctors and that are much better than U.S. trained MD's and DO's.

Skill and personality often have nothing to do with getting residency. A lot of times it is politics and you would have to extremely misinformed or stupid to suggest that FMG's are considered on the same level as DO's in the eyes of most PD's. Sure, there are exceptions possibly in New York but for the rest of the 95% of the PD's out there especially those outside the East Coast, DO's are overwhelmingly favored over FMG's. On the flip side, the west coast is especially brutal toward FMG's. In the west coast particularly California, it's no contest as to who is favored.

I know that many FMG's could have gotten into DO school. I won't deny that reality. But please, let's not deny that schools like SGU, Ross and AUC don't have their fair share of 2.8 GPAers either so let's not pretend that all or even most FMG's could have gotten into a DO school because they couldn't. The only significant difference between MD and DO admissions is the MCAT score. Many DO schools still boast average GPA's of around a 3.5 which is which is comparable to most MD schools. The reason why most people are forced to attending a DO school is because their MCAT scores were below 30. It's not because they had a 2.9 GPA like most Carribean grads. A person with a 3.5 GPA either does an MPH or retakes the MCAT before they settle on the Carribean. Most people who go to the Carribean have no legitimate shot an MD or DO school in general.

There are overwhelming advantages with being an DO over an Carribean MD that posts like these are sick jokes. Sure, there are standout FMG's like the moderator who the Chief of radonc at Hopkins. But DO's have their fair share of standouts as well. Let's stick to what everyone is trying to ascertain here and that is the rule and not the exception. The rule is that DO's are favored over FMG's. Yes, in the hierarchy of medicine, it goes MD, DO, FMG. The DO route is overwhelming superior to the Carribean route than many Carribean MD's have no problem admitting they would have gone DO if they could do it over again. But you will never hear a DO wish he did the Carribean route.

It is sad that the only reason why people chose an Carribean MD over a DO school was because they feared patients wouldn't know what a DO was and wouldn't see you. Go find a DO who will admit that he has lost significant business because of his initials. Guess what, you won't.

Finally, I chose DO school over MD. Yes, I'm an odball but a huge part of my decision had to do with geography. I wanted to attend medical school in a big city as opposed to attending some state medical school in a rural community like Oklahoma. And I have no desired to do surgery so I'm not concerned about being a DO. I know my patients aren't going to care if I'm a DO.

Do you consider being a Chief Resident at Johns Hopkins a good job?

Just curious, since that's stephew's current position and stephew attended a Carribean school. :)

Johnny

There is also a DO that matched into an allo dermatology residency at the Cleveland Clinic from AZCOM last year. There are exceptions in every field. Let's come back down to earth shall we. The vast majority of DO's and FMG's aren't going to come anywhere near programs like Hopkins. But at least the DO grad has control where he will do residency and his rotations. Unlike your Carribean grad, you aren't going to see many DO's forced to doing a third year rotation in the ghetto in NYC or doing family practice in some 10,000 population town in Nebraska. Yeah, the DO may not get Stanford but he isn't going to be forced to working in BFE either.

I hope no one gets offended but I for one don't want a DO behind my name. Sure IMG may make it a little more difficult getting a residency etc.. But after that its MD for your whole career. DO is forever. You have american docs and nurses who don't know what a DO is and don't respect them. Some might say that is minor or I should not go into medicine if I care what my title is, but if I bust my hump for 10 years, I should have whatever I am comfortable with and DO is not it. If you want DO great for you. If you don't THAT'S OK TOO !! But I don't think you should settle because like most things, if it bothers you now it will bother you in 20 years and you will be stuck with it. :thumbup:

Yeah, but the thing is if you do the Carribean route, you have pretty much settled on a primary care field and killed any legitimate chance at specialzing. There are exceptions but you need to ace the boards and get something that is ridiculously high on step 1 to stand a chance. FMG's have to do that much better than MD's and DO to be a viable candidate. DO's still get much more consideration than FMG's at most hospitals and then they get access to osteopathic residencies too. I would much rather be a DO orthopedic surgeon than an IMG MD family practice doc who failed to match ortho.

Any American doc that doesn't know what a DO is must not have a television set or heard of the internet either. And yes, there are plenty of nurses that don't know what a DO is but that usually doesn't matter since they refer to their DO colleauge by DOCTOR, the same title they call their FMG and US allo doctors as well. Your patients are going to care about your personality. You could tell a patient you went to Ross for medical school in the Carribean and they will probably think you were lucky to attend medical school in the islands. :) Most patients do not care one way or the other. It's rather silly to make your life so much more hectic because of an illegitimate fear. Yes, if the majority of your patients are US trained MD's then you should worry about being a DO.

Most people who go to the Carribean have no legitimate shot an MD or DO school in general??
Give me a break. I graduated with a gpa of 3.82 with a double major in bio and chemistry. I also scored a 33 in the MCAT. So you say I had no chance in getting in a US med school? I also had research experiences at Cornell medical school and Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center. Listen, I decided to attend an offshore med school for personal reasons. I guarantee you I?ll do well in the USMLE and get my match.
It is sad to say that people/patients and even MD?s do questioned DO?s. I shadowed 2 FP DO?s and 4 Psychiatrist MD?s for 2 yrs, and believe me, the DO?s were treated like *crap*. It didn?t matter that the DO was trying to explain their different philosophies; they were the joke of the week/month behind the close doors.
Now, I don?t have nothing against DO?s, as a matter of fact, I considered it. I just got ?hot? by you saying that most people attending offshore schools had bad grades/mcat scores. I worked really hard to earn my grades and scores to have someone like minimize it. I sit down every day in calss with a bright 46 year old Pharmacologist who graduated from Cornell 3.6 gpa 30 mcat, and worked for Cornell Hospital. It is ashamed that the only reason he got rejected to US med schools is because of his age: he has so much insight that you and me could only dream of.
You are right, some people here never stood a chance getting accepted to US med school, but some of us did. You are falling in the same trap in generalizing offshore students as most non-ethical doctors do.

It is sad to say that people/patients and even MD?s do questioned DO?s. I shadowed 2 FP DO?s and 4 Psychiatrist MD?s for 2 yrs, and believe me, the DO?s were treated like *crap*. It didn?t matter that the DO was trying to explain their different philosophies; they were the joke of the week/month behind the close doors.
I highly doubt that when you say those 2 DOs were the joke of the week. I would have been more inclined to believe you when if you said that two caribbean grads were the joke of the week.

Daelroy, it's good to see another person who chose DO over MD. Contrary to what our moderator on this board believes, us oddballs seem to be multiplying.:laugh:

The only significant difference between MD and DO admissions is the MCAT score. Many DO schools still boast average GPA's of around a 3.5 which is which is comparable to most MD schools. The reason why most people are forced to attending a DO school is because their MCAT scores were below 30. It's not because they had a 2.9 GPA like most Carribean grads. A person with a 3.5 GPA either does an MPH or retakes the MCAT before they settle on the Carribean.



Yup, many DO schools have a higher average GPA than MD schools.

KCOM even has a higher average MCAT than 40 of the Allopathic schools.

We have all heard stories of the one that went to DO over MD or the Carribean over USMD. But in the end, the only ones that will be good doctors in competitive fields are the ones that study, do well on their boards, do well with their patients and impress the PD. These are the people, MD or DO, that will be accepted. There is always the case of the DO getting derm (AZCOM) or the IMG getting derm(ROSS)...but you have also to realize those students were the best of the best. For whatever reason they ended up at a non-traditional school and obviously excelled to the point they impressed the PD and got a position. I just dont understand why people need to belittle others, probably because it makes their ego's bigger. Those that want a certain residency can gei it ONLY if they work HARD! No matter where you are from!!

Just my two cents!

[QUOTE=goolesss]Most people who go to the Carribean have no legitimate shot an MD or DO school in general??
It is sad to say that people/patients and even MD?s do questioned DO?s. I shadowed 2 FP DO?s and 4 Psychiatrist MD?s for 2 yrs, and believe me, the DO?s were treated like *crap*. It didn?t matter that the DO was trying to explain their different philosophies; they were the joke of the week/month behind the close doors.


I have friends with MD's who were "treated like crap" because they are minority and/or female, only they were the "joke of the day" to their faces.

Ignorance exists everywhere, regardless of one's education or initials.

It just really came off as you blatantly bashing osteopathic medicine and physicians, and I had to defend my future profession.

I can tell you that, having rotated with LECOM, NYCOM, PCOM, and Touro students in my cores already (and, yes, at ACGME/LCME approved rotations), we are in the same boat.

Always strongly resist the urge to bash anyone. You'll only end-up looking like an *****hole. Trust me. There are sh!tty LECOM students too. I know this firsthand. And, if you haven't made it to the clinic yet, you're in for a surprise when you see how many Ross, SGU, AUC (etc.) students you'll be doing your clerkships with.

-Skip

Now, I don’t have nothing against DO’s, as a matter of fact, I considered it. I just got “hot” by you saying that most people attending offshore schools had bad grades/mcat scores. I worked really hard to earn my grades and scores to have someone like minimize it. I sit down every day in calss with a bright 46 year old Pharmacologist who graduated from Cornell 3.6 gpa 30 mcat, and worked for Cornell Hospital. It is ashamed that the only reason he got rejected to US med schools is because of his age: he has so much insight that you and me could only dream of.
You are right, some people here never stood a chance getting accepted to US med school, but some of us did. You are falling in the same trap in generalizing offshore students as most non-ethical doctors do.

Are you seriously saying otherwise; that most FMG grads had normal stats that chose to go the Caribean route? Please, you are in denial. Hey, I will admit that most DO applicants had lower stats but give me a freaking break. The stats of most FMG grads is far lower than most DO's. That is why PD's favor DO's over FMG's is because they know that DO's have at least some admission standards as opposed to the open door policy that exists at Ross and AUC. And while SGU has somewhat normal admission standards, it is far easier getting into SGU than any DO school. It's a hierarchy if you haven't figured that out by now. Yes, while most PD's will favor their U.S. allo grads over DO students, they will also favor DO students over the FMG's for the same damn reason: it's tougher to get into a DO school than an foreign medical school. DUH! This should be common sense to you people. It's laughable how so many of you haven't grasped this simple concept. For crying out loud, Ross and AUC didn't even require the MCAT a few years ago.

I don't have a problem with people going to the Carribean but let's quit the BS and be a little more honest. You guys are going to the Carribean for the MD title. That's it. you aren't going there because you feel you will have a better chance at matching competitive residencies when compared to being a DO. There are always trade offs. Sure, you are getting your MD but you are also taking a hit in securing better residencies. There are always exception of the Ross student or the SGU student who secured something amazing but that's the exception and not the rule. However, DO routinely secure competitive fields; sure not at the same level as allo grads but far higher than their Carribean counterparts. That's just the reality. Anyone who genuinely believes that being an FMG is better than being a DO in regards to securing competitive fields is simply ignorant or being defensive. We all know the truth. Let's move on.

Not really its not. I, as an IMG interested in med ed in general, know many DOs and have had this conversation. Its a fine education in general but most go into it because they failed to get into a U S allopathic school. Same with where I went to school.

Agreed, but the reality is that most Carribean grads couldn't even get into a DO school let alone an allopathic school. I know it's convenient for the sake of argument to suggest that all Carribean grads got into DO schools and chose to hit the islands but we know that's b.s. I understand that you have an agenda to protect Carribean grads but now you are getting to the point of pure dishonestly. I know there is a good percentage of students that could have gotten into a DO school but let's not kid ourselves, the majority of IMG's had no choice but to attend a foreign medical school. Plenty of your classmates had sub 3.0 GPA's that couldn't have gotten them into any US medical school: MD or DO. Why do you think so many people fail out of Ross and AUC; it's because they were terrible students to begin with and couldn't hang once admitted. It's not easy for a 2.5 GPA student to suddenly take Human Anatomy and be expected to be proficient.

PD's know this which is why DO's are given preferential treatment over IMG's. This is the rule. Yes, I know some random hospital in New York likes FMG's better but for every hospital that prefers IMG's to DO's, I can give you 10 hospitals that favor DO's over IMG's.

Yeah. MOST Caribs have subpar numbers, end of story. But that doesn't mean anything for the end result of what comes out at the end of four years. In fact, the "big three" carib school graduates actually have pretty low records of having disciplinary actions taken against them (remember, I said "big three" not places like Spartan that seems to get on the news everyday).

I think, like any other school it depends on the applicant. The sad truth is, yes, most US schools do just depend on raw numbers. That 3.0 with a gazillion science units is NOT going to stack up against that 3.5+ humanities major unless you catch the admissions officers eyes with something. And the Caribbean offers those of us who screwed the pooch somewhere down the line to prove that we're worthy and get that MD we've desired for so long.

Oh, btw.. Adapt.. just anectodal evidence.. our Health Center's docs are DO's and i wouldn't trust them with a cold. :-D

Yeah. MOST Caribs have subpar numbers, end of story. But that doesn't mean anything for the end result of what comes out at the end of four years. In fact, the "big three" carib school graduates actually have pretty low records of having disciplinary actions taken against them (remember, I said "big three" not places like Spartan that seems to get on the news everyday).

And the big "three" also have low records of placing their students into competitive spots. Besides, FMG's are notorious for being absolutely clueless during rotations because they get no preclinical training whatsoever. They always have to work far harder than their US counterparts because of this disadvantage.

And the 3.5 humanities major isn't going to get into medical school without a solid MCAT so he must know some science. That excuse is rather weak. It suprises me that the 3.0 grad with "all the science courses" couldn't muster up a decent MCAT. I guess those sciences courses were not all that impressive

I think if you take a look at SGU's past residency placements, you'll see that we, in fact, get quite respectable residencies. Granted, we don't usually get super-competitive ones, but Orthopedic Surgery and Radiation Oncology are ultra-competitive, and we've had students get those residencies in the past (only a small number, but they've got them, just the same).

And yes, there are some clueless clinical students that come from here. But I've seen quite a few clueless clinical students from U.S. schools as well--even full-fledged physicians who graduated from U.S. schools. As we all know, it's really not where you come from, but what you put in to your education. I think you should look at your own school before you point the finger at others.

I'm curious why do people even bother arguing who is better than who, this is just like a stupid ego contest...everyone made their decisions already and has to live with what they chose. As for competitive residencies, they are always going to be tough to get into...anyone has a chance to apply...everyone US MD, DO, FMG all get rejected...they'll take who they know more than what your grades were, so if you want a tough residency do a rotation with a hospital that has that specific residency program and do your best to sell yourself and why they should keep you there.

Well said Wolverine7DO :thumbup:

Agreed, but the reality is that most Carribean grads couldn't even get into a DO school let alone an allopathic school. I know it's convenient for the sake of argument to suggest that all Carribean grads got into DO schools and chose to hit the islands but we know that's b.s. I understand that you have an agenda to protect Carribean grads but now you are getting to the point of pure dishonestly. I know there is a good percentage of students that could have gotten into a DO school but let's not kid ourselves, the majority of IMG's had no choice but to attend a foreign medical school. Plenty of your classmates had sub 3.0 GPA's that couldn't have gotten them into any US medical school: MD or DO. Why do you think so many people fail out of Ross and AUC; it's because they were terrible students to begin with and couldn't hang once admitted. It's not easy for a 2.5 GPA student to suddenly take Human Anatomy and be expected to be proficient.

PD's know this which is why DO's are given preferential treatment over IMG's. This is the rule. Yes, I know some random hospital in New York likes FMG's better but for every hospital that prefers IMG's to DO's, I can give you 10 hospitals that favor DO's over IMG's.

Sorry but you'll have to accept that I disagree with you. And I could accuse you of having the same adgenda and the same intellectual dishonesty. You have laid out many assumptions but your asserting them doenst make them true I'm afraid. The simplistic formula that US allopathic is better than DO is better than IMG is misleading.

Ive sat on residency candidacy numerous times now and I'm quite confident in my views. Put simply, PDs see DOs and IMGs generally as people who failed to get into US allopathic programs. program directors don't favor DOs over IMGs as a rule, and very often its an issue of which DO school versus which IMG school your talking about.

Now you are 100% right to the extent that there are some IMG schools who take anyone who pays and many of these folks wouldnt gain admission into even a DO school or a better IMG school. The produce weaker students who don't do nearly as well and Im sure pale next to DOs from better school. And this is when the particulars of the school matter. (But even then Ive known decent students choose to go to weaker IMG schools for a variety of reasons -cost or other things they were attracted to at the time, whether a good idea or not).

This phenomenon of the school mattering may also explain why you are hearing others relate stories of rotating next to DO students from certain schools and shining so much next to them. Even with your own bias you admit to pockets where IMGs are favored; the schools those IMGs come from may produce suprior students on the whole to DOs in the region. Those PDs become biased in favor of students from those IMG schools.

In the end I encourage the student to look at the outcomes from each school, where they match, and for IMGs you have also the issues of licensing, usmle pass rate and % who make it to the boards (Im suspect being a DO is far easier in this respect)

And for the record, I was accepted over even US allopathic students. Which knocks the whole formula on its head doesnt it? And since you are already accusing me of dishonesty I may as well cut you off at the pass here by asserting upfront that i had no connections, nor did I do anything less than salubrious to get the residency spot.

I'm curious why do people even bother arguing who is better than who, this is just like a stupid ego contest...everyone made their decisions already and has to live with what they chose. As for competitive residencies, they are always going to be tough to get into...anyone has a chance to apply...everyone US MD, DO, FMG all get rejected...they'll take who they know more than what your grades were, so if you want a tough residency do a rotation with a hospital that has that specific residency program and do your best to sell yourself and why they should keep you there.
I agree 100% It is an ego thing which is why whenever a student asks in earnest "which is better" i remind them that they should be wary of any poster who is vehement or insistant on the issue.

When I was a kid the big thing was which was better, Duran Duran or Culture Club. We still love our cliques and need to be better!
(BTW: Duran Duran obviously)

And the big "three" also have low records of placing their students into competitive spots. Besides, FMG's are notorious for being absolutely clueless during rotations because they get no preclinical training whatsoever. They always have to work far harder than their US counterparts because of this disadvantage.

And the 3.5 humanities major isn't going to get into medical school without a solid MCAT so he must know some science. That excuse is rather weak. It suprises me that the 3.0 grad with "all the science courses" couldn't muster up a decent MCAT. I guess those sciences courses were not all that impressive


Youre right, its harder for IMGs to get more competitive spots. Just like DOs most IMGs tend to primary care. But..

Check the sgu web site. Youll see ER, ortho, etc. The sad thing is sgu underrepresents where their grads go; until this year they were using only student reporting as to where folks were going for internship. Thus most folks who went after year one into speciality weren't represented. For instance I went into radonc; check the 1999 list and you wont see that. There are currently 5 sgu folks in radonc and one won the national prize this year. And a derm resident from sgu one a national prize as well. This year sgu got some info from the NRMP thankfully and even then apparently they've left out a few.

No preclin training? Gosh we did some in my first year and for 6 mons in our second year we go to for hosptial rotations several times a week. Ie. preclinical training.

What's so bad about the notion that some IMG schools are quite good and people do very well for themselves? How does that threaten DOs?

I agree 100% It is an ego thing which is why whenever a student asks in earnest "which is better" i remind them that they should be wary of any poster who is vehement or insistant on the issue.

When I was a kid the big thing was which was better, Duran Duran or Culture Club. We still love our cliques and need to be better!
(BTW: Duran Duran obviously)


:thumbup: Duran Duran... best alt band of the 80's (right there with Depeche Mode, the Smiths, the Cure)

J~ :D

Agreed, but the reality is that most Carribean grads couldn't even get into a DO school let alone an allopathic school. I know it's convenient for the sake of argument to suggest that all Carribean grads got into DO schools and chose to hit the islands but we know that's b.s.

Do you also say that most DO grads couldn't get into U.S. Allopathic schools? :D

J~

:thumbup: Duran Duran... best alt band of the 80's (right there with Depeche Mode, the Smiths, the Cure)

J~ :D
God to this day the smiths still crackle. And billy bragg is another (his softie songs were what I particularly liked).
But i dont know if id call D.D. alternative! Id say they were as mainstream as it gets!

Funny thing about the smiths, cure and D.M.-all became popular in the US after they hit their creative peak; i'm sorry "enjoy the silence" and "personal Jesus" are a mere shadow of DM's best in my view. Hey you want to hear something incredible; check out rufus wainwright.

Ok back to regular programing:
DO!
IMG!
DO!
IMG!!

God to this day the smiths still crackle. And billy bragg is another (his softie songs were what I particularly liked).
But i dont know if id call D.D. alternative! Id say they were as mainstream as it gets!

Funny thing about the smiths, cure and D.M.-all became popular in the US after they hit their creative peak; i'm sorry "enjoy the silence" and "personal Jesus" are a mere shadow of DM's best in my view. Hey you want to hear something incredible; check out rufus wainwright.


I think the older DM stuff was definitely much better than that last stuff they were doing in the 90's. They are however one of the few bands who put out a ton of albums and I would have a hard time finding any of their songs that I didn't like.

I saw the Cure on some show a couple of months ago...they still sound good believe it or not. That guy still looks and sounds exactly the same...must be the mascara and hairspray lol :)

And if I remember right, I saw Duran Duran playing at the superbowl pregame show or something like that this year... which I would have NEVER EXPECTED. They still sounded ok, but the whole "Wild Boys" thing didn't click for me this time like it used to... I'm just getting old probably :p

I think the older DM stuff was definitely much better than that last stuff they were doing in the 90's. They are however one of the few bands who put out a ton of albums and I would have a hard time finding any of their songs that I didn't like.

I saw the Cure on some show a couple of months ago...they still sound good believe it or not. That guy still looks and sounds exactly the same...must be the mascara and hairspray lol :)

And if I remember right, I saw Duran Duran playing at the superbowl pregame show or something like that this year... which I would have NEVER EXPECTED. They still sounded ok, but the whole "Wild Boys" thing didn't click for me this time like it used to... I'm just getting old probably :p
the cure are one tour again. Never thought they were great live but you should see them once. Yeah duran duran never knew what to do after the new romatic phase. They've reformed by the way, the original five. I think two of duran duran were DOs, two were IMGs and one was a holistic healer- but he wasn't one of the "taylors".

I can attest to what stephew is saying. Ross does the same thing, puts the prelim year without listing the ultra-competitive residency that the person got into after the prelim year is done. Stupid, really, considering how important those lists are for people trying to decide their future and how much it would help their own reputation.

But then again, I have called to check on grades with the person on the other side of the phone in the Registrar's office not even able to pronounce the name of the rotation I finished (I mean, how hard is it to say the word "nephrology" with it spelled in front of you -- talk about confidence in your school).

And Duran Duran, no question. Remake of White Lines has to hit high on the unintentional Comedy Scale (apologies to Bill Simmons).

I can attest to what stephew is saying. Ross does the same thing, puts the prelim year without listing the ultra-competitive residency that the person got into after the prelim year is done. Stupid, really, considering how important those lists are for people trying to decide their future and how much it would help their own reputation.


And Duran Duran, no question. Remake of White Lines has to hit high on the unintentional Comedy Scale (apologies to Bill Simmons).

Thanks for the confirmation and Im glad to know ross does the same thing; both because it makes sgu look slightly less imcompetant in getting the info out, and also because now I can make note to other IMGs that ross may have some more competitive residencies that aren't made obvious.

Tell your school the NRMP will send them a list for a fee-sgu just figured this out this year (i think its for a fee; anyway its definitely from the NRMP)
Oh man, White lines, I know. :scared:

With the prelim matches wouldn't it go both ways though? I've been told that there are plenty of sgu/ross general surgery matches that are prelim spots by students who were trying to match categorical.

When considering the total # of competitive matches, I think a lot of people forget the class size. If South Alabama had 2 people match ent and Ross had 2 people match ent, South Alabama actually had 4 or 5 times as many people match ent. It's also pretty tough to look at practicing specialists in some fields and identify them as sgu/ross grads because the competitiveness of certain matches is very cyclical. Just because something is really tough to match now doesn't mean it was tough to match several years ago.

Base on what you just said:

If some specialties are hard to get into in some years and easy in others, there must be a reason for it. that reason is that a specialty may be saturated or getting saturated.

However, those spots still need to be filled, so the residency people lower their expectations based on the number of applicants. If they don't do that they don't get money from the government for their residency program.
So, it's no so much what school you go to, it's more like how bad do they need residents. This is most likely not all true, but there is a good amount of truth to this.

EH.

For those of you who went to a Carrib school, can you give me more information on or describe the "hurdles" you had to cross when trying to licensed in different states... specifically the big three states--Cali, NY and Texas. Also, any website with more information would greatly be appreciated. Thanks!

Patient: "What's a D.O.? Doctor of Optometry? There's nothing wrong with my eyes!"

vs.

Patient: "The Car-i-bean? Why did you go THERE?"

Since one of these two will happen, I'd pick D.O. purely for the reason of getting to stay in the U.S., and the having to face less red-tape for licensure.

Patient: "What's a D.O.? Doctor of Optometry? There's nothing wrong with my eyes!"

vs.

Patient: "The Car-i-bean? Why did you go THERE?"

Since one of these two will happen, I'd pick D.O. purely for the reason of getting to stay in the U.S., and the having to face less red-tape for licensure.


Caribbean MD: Hey, I haven't seen you in a while, what field are you in?

DO: I'm in PM&R or Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation. I work about 40 hours a week and pull down 250K per year? What do you do?

Carribean MD: Oh, I wanted to go into PM&R but being an FMG, it was either family practice or internal medicine. I didn't have much options. I make about about 130K and work 50-60 hours a week doing mostly paperwork. I'm pretty burnt out too considering I had to do my residency in the Bronx in New York where the rest of us FMG's went. We didn't much choice where we could do clinicals and residency. Hey, but I still have my MD

DO: You got me there.

Youre right, its harder for IMGs to get more competitive spots. Just like DOs most IMGs tend to primary care. But..

Check the sgu web site. Youll see ER, ortho, etc. The sad thing is sgu underrepresents where their grads go; until this year they were using only student reporting as to where folks were going for internship. Thus most folks who went after year one into speciality weren't represented. For instance I went into radonc; check the 1999 list and you wont see that. There are currently 5 sgu folks in radonc and one won the national prize this year. And a derm resident from sgu one a national prize as well. This year sgu got some info from the NRMP thankfully and even then apparently they've left out a few.

No preclin training? Gosh we did some in my first year and for 6 mons in our second year we go to for hosptial rotations several times a week. Ie. preclinical training.

What's so bad about the notion that some IMG schools are quite good and people do very well for themselves? How does that threaten DOs?

Ross also has similar standout placements; what's your point? My point is that those placements are rare especially considering the number of people graduating from SGU. And regarding PD's impression of DO vs. IMG, you are simply being defensive and stubborn. Maybe, it's because you are located in the northeast but accross the country as a whole, DO's are given preference over IMG's. You can't honestly tell me that IMG's are favored over DO's by PD's in the West, South and particularly the Midwest? That's the 3/4 of the country right there. Give me a break!

Also, your argument is rather convenient. PD's give preference to U.S. Allopathic physicians over DO's and IMG's because they know that both groups couldn't get into an MD school yet they somehow aren't aware that many IMG's couldn't get into a DO school? Do you really think PD's aren't aware of the admissions process of these foreign schools compared to the admissions process at a DO school? PD's know that it is much tougher getting into a DO school than a foreign medical school. This is why U.S. students both MD and DO are favored first and IMG's are favored last on the rung. There are always exceptions of students like yourself but the rule doesn't change. The northeast is different because most IMG's tend to settle there. First, they are usually forced to doing their clinicals there which enables them to meet and work alongside PD's. They have been doing this for a long time so the reputation of IMG's in the northeast isn't as bad it is in other parts of the country. And you happen to be in the northeast which is why you haven't experienced the anti-IMG stigma. Go outside the northeast and you will see exactly what I mean.

And in rural areas of the South and certain states in the Midwest like Ohio and Michigan, many PD's aware that many DO's (probably 1/3 of all DO's) chose to attend an osteopathic school over an allopathic school, and thus really don't give much preference to MD's over DO's especially if the DO student has competitive Step 1 scores. Yes, there are many DO's that chose to attend osteopathic school over allopathic school. And if you don't believe me, check out the campus of a DO school. Many DO students are hippy granolas that are into alternative healing and the idea of alternative medicine. They are smart granolas that had high GPA's and MCATs who elected to go DO. I personally know several of these students so it's not an excuse. So we also have our pockets in the country that don't share any DO bias at all. That is also something you failed to acknowledge.

In regards to securing competitive residencies, you are putting yourself at a statistical disadvantage by attending a foreign medical school versus a DO school.

The "stigma" of being an IMG is probably greater than that of being a US DO.

Somehow I get the feeling you think that is the way it should be?

i thought that was too funny
aren't those the things we fight over post after post :meanie:
i totally feel you about the placement issues :laugh:

I would go to the Carib over DO simply because there no DO's practicing in Louisiana( a few scattered) but a lot of img carib grads. Plus, I lived in the Virgin Islands for a years, the carib is a sweet place to live. I would pick it over some Allo school, or DO school in the middle of the country.


Are you seriously saying otherwise; that most FMG grads had normal stats that chose to go the Caribean route? Please, you are in denial. Hey, I will admit that most DO applicants had lower stats but give me a freaking break. The stats of most FMG grads is far lower than most DO's. That is why PD's favor DO's over FMG's is because they know that DO's have at least some admission standards as opposed to the open door policy that exists at Ross and AUC. And while SGU has somewhat normal admission standards, it is far easier getting into SGU than any DO school. It's a hierarchy if you haven't figured that out by now. Yes, while most PD's will favor their U.S. allo grads over DO students, they will also favor DO students over the FMG's for the same damn reason: it's tougher to get into a DO school than an foreign medical school. DUH! This should be common sense to you people. It's laughable how so many of you haven't grasped this simple concept. For crying out loud, Ross and AUC didn't even require the MCAT a few years ago.

I don't have a problem with people going to the Carribean but let's quit the BS and be a little more honest. You guys are going to the Carribean for the MD title. That's it. you aren't going there because you feel you will have a better chance at matching competitive residencies when compared to being a DO. There are always trade offs. Sure, you are getting your MD but you are also taking a hit in securing better residencies. There are always exception of the Ross student or the SGU student who secured something amazing but that's the exception and not the rule. However, DO routinely secure competitive fields; sure not at the same level as allo grads but far higher than their Carribean counterparts. That's just the reality. Anyone who genuinely believes that being an FMG is better than being a DO in regards to securing competitive fields is simply ignorant or being defensive. We all know the truth. Let's move on.

I have to admit in experiencing just a little schadenfreude when I found this statement on the Quackwatch website:

Osteopathic physicians (DOs) are the legal equivalents and, in most cases, are the professional equivalents of medical doctors. Although most DOs offer competent care, the percentage involved in dubious practices appears to be higher than that of medical doctors. For this reason, before deciding whether to use the services of a DO it is useful to understand osteopathy's history and the practical significance of its philosophy.

The article also briefly touches on cranial therapy espoused by many DOs:

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

I would go to the Carib over DO simply because there no DO's practicing in Louisiana( a few scattered) but a lot of img carib grads. Plus, I lived in the Virgin Islands for a years, the carib is a sweet place to live. I would pick it over some Allo school, or DO school in the middle of the country.

There are no DO's practicing in Louisiana? That's funny, check out this link http://www.loma-net.org/physicianreferral/findado.htm

There are a ton of DO's practicing in New Orleans and Baton Rouge. I take it New Orleans and Baton Rouge are in Louisiana correct? Enter the zip code of the section of the city you are interested and you are bound to find at least one DO. Gotta love the "There are no DO's in my area" excuse. And like always, it never proves to be true.

Grenada isn't the U.S. Virgin Islands and it's anything but "sweet" Again, do not equate the Caribbean with Fantasy Island, Ibiza or any other luxury vacation resort. They are third world nations. The only exception to this is AUC on St. Maarten. It's actually a pretty nice island with casinos, bars, clubs etc. It still has it's fair share of island problems like travel costs to the U.S. and the standard power outages but AUC isn't exactly St. George now is it?


NEXT

I have to admit in experiencing just a little schadenfreude when I found this statement on the Quackwatch website:



The article also briefly touches on cranial therapy espoused by many DOs:

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

You are mistaken if you think all DO's love OMM. Most of us just wanted to be physicians and will never practice OMM. Others of us will. We all have our own opinions. Many DO's think OMM is quackery too and never practice it.

If Carribean schools like St. George enabled its students to have the same access to residencies like DO students then why doesn't most DO students simply apply to St. George and some of the best schools overseas? Since we have already accepted the idea that most DO students were MD rejects that aspired to go to an MD school first, why wouldn't we all apply to St. George if their school is so reputable in the United States? Think about that for a minute. DO's are not unaware that the MD label can make your situation easier at times particularly during clinical rotations, so why wouldn't they just go to St. George? We have accepted that most(3/4 or 2/3) of all DO's would prefer to have attended a US allopathic school if given the chance. Do you really think that those 75% or 66% of all students who chose DO school are dumb and haven't done their research on schools like St. George? Please!

The only advantage to attending a school like St. George over a DO school is for the MD label and that's it. There are some amazing St. George students that break the mold but those students are rare. Statistically speaking, you have better odds of specializing as a DO than as an IMG. DO's students know this which is why they would rather be a DO and specialize or do primary care at competitive hospitals than be an IMG and have much more limited opportunities. To DO students, it's not worth sacraficing opportunities and living conditions for an MD label. So if you want the MD label, then by all means go to the Carribbean. If you want to stand a better chance of specializing and acquiring competitive residencies, go to a DO school. That's the bottomline. Yes, you can take your chances at St. George and get lucky and match into an amazing specialty but its rare that St. George students do that. For every ENT or Radonc they match, look at where the rest of 90% match at those schools. Everyone remembers the rare superstar but forgets where the majority of their students match. And yes, we all think we will be that unique standout person but reality speaks otherwise. So what will happen if you go to St. George and you end up doing your clinical rotations in some dumpy part of Queens, New York only to end doing family practice in the middle of nowhere. That's a closer reality than the student getting radiation oncology at St. George.

For those of you who went to a Carrib school, can you give me more information on or describe the "hurdles" you had to cross when trying to licensed in different states... specifically the big three states--Cali, NY and Texas. Also, any website with more information would greatly be appreciated. Thanks!

Hi Orchid,

Try www.valuemd.com (http://www.valuemd.com) . The site has plenty of info that you might find helpful.

not one to step into the middle of a great pissing match cause people will have hard core opinions no matter what....

BUT..

wasn't the point of this thread to see if any graduates had regrets? I think the first few posts were a pretty obvious no. I'm still interested in hearing about the process of going from a caribbean school to a residency.

not one to step into the middle of a great pissing match cause people will have hard core opinions no matter what....

BUT..

wasn't the point of this thread to see if any graduates had regrets? I think the first few posts were a pretty obvious no. I'm still interested in hearing about the process of going from a caribbean school to a residency.

Exactly what I mean! After just reading the posts from the people who are so anti IMG, it just helped me make a conclusion that they have nothing better to do than go rant about how horrible it is to go abroad vs. going to a DO school.

Do you realize you've offended some of the people who WANT do family medicine or some subspecialty in Internal Med? And there are those people who are COMMITTED to working with the underserved/rural communities? Are you trying to say most of the general practritioners (even ones who came from US allopathic schools) are imcompetent and couldn't get into other specialties?

I figured all the negative remarks/comments you are making are due to your anger caused by people who went to allopathic schools and are making your life hell because they have shown little respect for DOs, as you are doing to IMGs.

In the end, as long as a US licensed physician is genuinely concerned about my well-being and are competent enought to provide me with care, and has not had a few malpractice suits, I could care less where they got their degree from...... whether it is the US, some country I've never heard of or someone with a DO degree.

I'm sure there are many others who would agree with me on that, considering there are a shortage of physicians in most areas of the country....

So please post somewhere else as this thread is titled " Caribbean School Graduates/Alumni, Any Regrets? " and obviously should have no relevance to you, since 1) you are not a Alumni of a Carib school and 2) you are not interested in attending a Carib school.

Exactly what I mean! After just reading the posts from the people who are so anti IMG, it just helped me make a conclusion that they have nothing better to do than go rant about how horrible it is to go abroad vs. going to a DO school.

Do you realize you've offended some of the people who WANT do family medicine or some subspecialty in Internal Med? And there are those people who are COMMITTED to working with the underserved/rural communities? Are you trying to say most of the general practritioners (even ones who came from US allopathic schools) are imcompetent and couldn't get into other specialties?

I figured all the negative remarks/comments you are making are due to your anger caused by people who went to allopathic schools and are making your life hell because they have shown little respect for DOs, as you are doing to IMGs.

In the end, as long as a US licensed physician is genuinely concerned about my well-being and are competent enought to provide me with care, and has not had a few malpractice suits, I could care less where they got their degree from...... whether it is the US, some country I've never heard of or someone with a DO degree.

I'm sure there are many others who would agree with me on that, considering there are a shortage of physicians in most areas of the country....

So please post somewhere else as this thread is titled " Caribbean School Graduates/Alumni, Any Regrets? " and obviously should have no relevance to you, since 1) you are not a Alumni of a Carib school and 2) you are not interested in attending a Carib school.

I never said practicing family practice in a rural area is bad. I just said that's not something I would want to do. I just don't want to be statistically limited to a particular field or certain area of the country as an IMG. I have admitted in the past that if one has the desire to practice in a primary care field in a rural area of the country while still acquiring an MD, then the Carribean is most appropriate route. Don't misread that as me stating that IMG's are permanently banned from the most competitive fields in medicine as they most certainly are not. However, the odds favor a DO as opposed to an IMG in securing competitive fields and hospitals in addition to having a say in regards to the location of where one wants to do clinicals and residency. That is a fact. Compare the match lists of all DO schools versus the match lists of all Carrbbean graduates including SGU graduates and there is a higher percentage of DO's that specialize and do primary care specialties at competitive hospitals.

The issue I have is one someone suggests that IMG's and DO's have equal access to competitive hospitals and residency because they both are seen as "not being good enough to get into a US MD school." If you post something like that then rest assured many DO's and osteopathic students will correct that inaccurate statement. I have a right to post on this thread when people start posting fallacies in regards to osteopathic education and being a DO. This is the student doctor network so we have the privilege of posting anywhere on this forum; we aren't limited to the osteopathic forum only.

I have friend that are graduating from offshore schools and I don't have a problem with that. I know that many students attend offshore schools for the MD and that's their right. However, it becomes an issue when one inaccurately claims that by attending SGU or another Carribean school, he or she will have equal access to the most competitive hospitals and residency as a DO. That is not true because DO's have an edge in this area despite the fact that some standout Carribbean grads do quite nicely for themselves. The statistics favor DO's. Is that so hard to admit? That in no way puts down SGU or other Carribbean schools. All it says is that as an SGU student, you will have a tougher time than attending many DO schools if you want to specialize; the odds will not be in your favor but it in no ways says you can't specialize coming out of SGU. I looked at SGU's matchlist and it is impressive. But something I noticed about SGU's matchlist was that they had far more students as well and the competition for the top positions must be brutal. It seemed like were CLOSE TO 300 STUDENTS for their 2003 match list. Talk about competition!

This thread is going in circles. Everybody here has had their say at least twice.

You'll find the answer to the original question easier by asking at http://www.valuemd.com and by doing a search there. Since that's specifically an IMG forum, there are a lot more IMGs there that can give an answer.

Guys, If your are comparing the Match list at Ross with a D.O. school, please do not. The Ross list is NOT COMPLETE. My friend pre-match Urology at Mt. Sinai and it is not on the list.

And if you are comparing match statistics between D.O applicants and IMG'S, again don't. The match percentage of IMGs in general does not speak for Carribean applicants (Ross, SGU) specificly. PDs do not see Ross/SGU graduates (who did all their clinicals, MS-3 and MS-4, years with residents and US allopathic medical students at ACGME accredited teaching hospitals) like the rest of the "true" FMGs.

Guys, If your are comparing the Match list at Ross with a D.O. school, please do not. The Ross list is NOT COMPLETE. My friend pre-match for Urology at Mt. Sinai ant it is not on the list.

And if you are comparing match statistics between D.O applicants and IMG'S, again don't. The match percentage of IMGs in general does not speak for Carribean applicants (Ross, SGU) specificly. PDs do not see Ross/SGU graduates (who did clinicals with residents at ACGME accredited teaching hospitals) like the rest "true" FMGs.

Compare the match list of SGU (the best Carribean school) with the match list of a DO school. SGU has some impressive placements which I will candidly admit. The problem occurs when you count the total number of students that are involved in the match at SGU for a given year. SGU had close to ~350 students for their 2003 match. DO schools vary with the number of students per each class but many don't exceed a 130 usually. I would much rather compete with a 130 students than 350 students in a given year. With that many students, it shouldn't be a suprise to anyone that SGU managed to have some students that attained some competitive fields. Yes, out of 350 graduates, SGU had ONE orthopedic surgeon. They had ZERO neurosurgeons listed. Out of 350 grads, they had ONE opthalmologist. Out of 350 grads, they had TWO PM&R physiatry. They had ZERO radiologists. They had ZERO radiation oncologists. They had ZERO dermatologists (one was incorrectly listed for Harvard). They had a whopping FIVE anesthesiologists out of 350 grads. Close to 120 graduates were going into internal medicine. Close to 45 students were entering Family Practice. I haven't even counted those entering Pediatrics which exceed those entering family practice.

The vast majority of those ~300 students were involved in primary care fields. Another interesting statistic was that an overwhelming number of students from the SGU 2003 class were on the East Coast. There were hardly any students in California, Texas and the like.

Finally, Ross and SGU students aren't the only ones who do clinicals in the U.S. . AUC, SABA and students from European schools also do clinicals in the U.S.

Now, now....Who said SGU was the best carribean school. Was it officially published, officially polled, officially ranked.................. :laugh:

(Please note sarcasm) ;)

Now, now....Who said SGU was the best carribean school. Was it officially published, officially polled, officially ranked.................. :laugh:

(Please note sarcasm) ;)

:) Man, let's not even go there. Ross didn't start accepting the MCAT....the freakin MCAT!... as an admissions tool until a year ago. In the past, they only required that students take the MCAT but their scores wouldn't be used as an admissions tool. And they only started that policy a few years ago. For the longest time, Ross didn't even accept the MCAT. :LOL: I think we can safely say that SGU is the best foreign medical school because unlike Ross, they at least had some entrance standards.

Ross is essentially a diploma mill because they accept anyone which is why so many of their students fail out of the school too. They accept students who shouldn't be admitted to medical school. I heard that approximately 20% of all Ross students who are admitted fail out of their school

Compare the match list of SGU (the best Carribean school) with the match list of a DO school. SGU has some impressive placements which I will candidly admit. The problem occurs when you count the total number of students that are involved in the match at SGU for a given year. SGU had close to ~350 students for their 2003 match. DO schools vary with the number of students per each class but many don't exceed a 130 usually. I would much rather compete with a 130 students than 350 students in a given year. With that many students, it shouldn't be a suprise to anyone that SGU managed to have some students that attained some competitive fields. Yes, out of 350 graduates, SGU had ONE orthopedic surgeon. They had ZERO neurosurgeons listed. Out of 350 grads, they had ONE opthalmologist. Out of 350 grads, they had TWO PM&R physiatry. They had ZERO radiologists. They had ZERO radiation oncologists. They had ZERO dermatologists (one was incorrectly listed for Harvard). They had a whopping FIVE anesthesiologists out of 350 grads. Close to 120 graduates were going into internal medicine. Close to 45 students were entering Family Practice. I haven't even counted those entering Pediatrics which exceed those entering family practice.

The vast majority of those ~300 students were involved in primary care fields. Another interesting statistic was that an overwhelming number of students from the SGU 2003 class were on the East Coast. There were hardly any students in California, Texas and the like.

Finally, Ross and SGU students aren't the only ones who do clinicals in the U.S. . AUC, SABA and students from European schools also do clinicals in the U.S.


do you read the responses people post? it's been pointed out several times that the sgu match list is incomplete. as IMGs we can pre-match and avoid the process all together and many of those spots are not represented on the list. furthermore, as steph reported on pages 2 and 3 she just finished her rad-onc residency, but only her prelim year was listed on the match list. So you see, a lot of those IM matches are just prelim years. And, while we're on the topic, why do you think the harvard derm listing was a mistake? That person just finished her intern year and was apparently present at the SGU open house in NYC not too long ago. Not that it matters, you'll still continue to badger all of us about our choice to become IMGs. A choice so dismal that absolutely no one has claimed to regret their choice- now that doesn't make any sense, does it?

do you read the responses people post? it's been pointed out several times that the sgu match list is incomplete. as IMGs we can pre-match and avoid the process all together and many of those spots are not represented on the list. furthermore, as steph reported on pages 2 and 3 she just finished her rad-onc residency, but only her prelim year was listed on the match list. So you see, a lot of those IM matches are just prelim years. And, while we're on the topic, why do you think the harvard derm listing was a mistake? That person just finished her intern year and was apparently present at the SGU open house in NYC not too long ago. Not that it matters, you'll still continue to badger all of us about our choice to become IMGs. A choice so dismal that absolutely no one has claimed to regret their choice- now that doesn't make any sense, does it?

Oh, I read it but guess what SGU isn't the only school whose match lists may be incomplete because of the pre-lim year posting. I'm certain the match list would look drastically "different" if that information was suddenly posted. There are many DO schools that fail to provide that information as well. It sounds like an excuse to me and a rather convenient one at that. In regards to the Harvard derm position, I read the thread regarding that position. Scroll down and you will see it. You still haven't addressed the fact that you had close to 350 students in the match and nearly 1/3 of those students went into internal medicine which didn't include the large numbers of family practice and pediactrics residents. What about the large percentage of students on the east coast: so much for geographic flexibility...oh but I'm sure they all wanted to remain there. Apparently you didn't read my post too well. Go ahead and take another look at it....more carefully this time.

I'm not attacking IMG's. I'm only attacking fallacious statements suggesting that IMG's have an equal opportunity to acquire competitive residencies as DO's. It's simply not true. I support those who feel the need to go offshore for the MD degree. Everyone has his or her own reasons. Just don't post wrong information about DO's and I won't be here.

:) Man, let's not even go there. Ross didn't start accepting the MCAT....the freakin MCAT!... as an admissions tool until a year ago. In the past, they only required that students take the MCAT but their scores wouldn't be used as an admissions tool. And they only started that policy a few years ago. For the longest time, Ross didn't even accept the MCAT. :LOL: I think we can safely say that SGU is the best foreign medical school because unlike Ross, they at least had some entrance standards.

Ross is essentially a diploma mill because they accept anyone which is why so many of their students fail out of the school too. They accept students who shouldn't be admitted to medical school. I heard that approximately 20% of all Ross students who are admitted fail out of their school

Okay, I couldn't help it, this was just too ironic to not point out. Umm...you do know that you're responding to Leukocyte, who if I remember correctly goes to Ross! :laugh:

PS This is not a knock on Ross, just an observation of irony :D

Okay, I couldn't help it, this was just too ironic to not point out. Umm...you do know that you're responding to Leukocyte, who if I remember correctly goes to Ross! :laugh:

PS This is not a knock on Ross, just an observation of irony :D

Yes

My apologies to this forum. I have said enough and I don't want to get into personal attacks. If any of you have questions about pursuing the DO vs. IMG route, PM me or ask others on the Osteopathic forum for their opinion. Good Luck to all.

Daelroy, I seem to come by your posts a lot and you often offer some very insightful info...but some of your comments kinda concern me...

You are mistaken if you think all DO's love OMM. Most of us just wanted to be physicians and will never practice OMM. Others of us will. We all have our own opinions. Many DO's think OMM is quackery too and never practice it.

I think it's sad that people will go into osteopathic school without regard for the history and philosophy of osteopathic medicine. I think it takes away from osteopathic medicine when "most of [you] just wanted to be physicians." And to think that some DOs even think that OMM (which is one of the main reasons that makes osteopathic medicine unique and different from allopathic medicine) is "quackery" and have no intent to "practice it" kind of disturbs me.



Statistically speaking, you have better odds of specializing as a DO than as an IMG. DO's students know this which is why they would rather be a DO and specialize or do primary care at competitive hospitals than be an IMG and have much more limited opportunities. If you want to stand a better chance of specializing and acquiring competitive residencies, go to a DO school. That's the bottomline.

You know what, even though my brother is going to SGU and I'm sure I may rattle some of the SDNers who are currently at foreign medical schools, your belief that DO graduates have an advantage in the match over US-IMGs is probably almost 100% true. I've looked at some of the DO matchlists and some of them are incredible. But that still bothers me...



So what will happen if you go to St. George and you end up doing your clinical rotations in some dumpy part of Queens, New York only to end doing family practice in the middle of nowhere.

I just went to the aacom.org website and looked at every single osteopathic medical school. On either the AACOM, the osteopathic school's own website, or links off of the osteopathic school websites, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM mentioned a commitment to one or more of the following:

(1) primary care- first and foremost
(2) rural medicine
(3) the underserved

And so I can't help but wonder...isn't "family practice in the middle of nowhere" often consistent with the principles of osteopathy save for the OMM?

As I've stated before, my brother decided to go to SGU and I totally respect that. I am premed and I will probably apply for US allopathic, US osteopathic, and SGU in 2005 (2006 if I decide to take a glide year to teach at my former high school, do research, or get a MA or MS in bioethics/clinical ethics). As you can see, I am interested in osteopathic medical schools and may attend one in the future. One of the reasons I really respect osteopathy is the philosophy that so many people dismiss as rubbish. I think that people who want to go into medicine not for the money, but for the opportunity to practice primary care and help the most destitute are some of the most respectable doctors out there. They are the people who really understand what medicine is all about. So even if one of these people (osteopathic, allopathic, or FMG-allopathic) is making "130K and work(ing) 50-60 hours" as opposed to some guy that goes into PM&R that is making 200K+ and working less hours, what's your point? As far as I'm concerned people who go into medicine willing to work harder and earn less because they have the genuine intent to help those in need rather than because they wanted prestige, money, or lifestyle, are precisely the types of people who should go into medicine. :thumbup:

My apologies to this forum. I have said enough and I don't want to get into personal attacks. If any of you have questions about pursuing the DO vs. IMG route, PM me or ask others on the Osteopathic forum for their opinion. Good Luck to all.

I'm sure most of us are thankful for your contributions and know that your purpose isn't to make personal attacks. Again, thanks for the info and I'm sure it'll be very helpful for those deciding to go DO or FMG. :thumbup:

To Phil Anthropist

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

daelroy,

So, There are no DO's practicing in Louisiana? That's funny, check out this link http://www.loma-net.org/physicianreferral/findado.htm huh?

Wrong!!!! You are full of C***p!!! Try my zip code?96826
It is ashamed how your D.O ego gets to your head and try to down play off shore students!!! And before you start talking smack, I graduated with a 3.8 gpa and score a 33 in the mcat?.In case you are just wondering I did not wanted to wait a year in half to apply to a school in the states?.I am currently living my dream..
Please do your homework before you post anything in this forum?..for now, you are just a liar.

Daelroy, your contribution is very much helpful and some of what you said has taught me more about the issue. I chose DO school over 2 US MD schools but I know that there are people who choose caribbean over DO with no question. In fact, I would even argue that DOs can specialize just as easily as US MDs but that is an argument for another time. :D

I'd also like to comment that I've visited the ValueMD forum and it is super-pro caribbean and often times they speak negatively about DOs. I guess it's all about the propaganda you hear. I am glad SDN is very pro DO especially since the founder of SDN is a DO FP from COMP. :)

daelroy,

So, There are no DO's practicing in Louisiana? That's funny, check out this link http://www.loma-net.org/physicianreferral/findado.htm huh?

Wrong!!!! You are full of C***p!!! Try my zip code?96826
It is ashamed how your D.O ego gets to your head and try to down play off shore students!!! And before you start talking smack, I graduated with a 3.8 gpa and score a 33 in the mcat?.In case you are just wondering I did not wanted to wait a year in half to apply to a school in the states?.I am currently living my dream..
Please do your homework before you post anything in this forum?..for now, you are just a liar.
Well, if you go here...

http://directory.aoa-net.org/cfm/PublicSearch.cfm

...and put LA, you get 48 DOs.

daelroy,

So, There are no DO's practicing in Louisiana? That's funny, check out this link http://www.loma-net.org/physicianreferral/findado.htm huh?

Wrong!!!! You are full of C***p!!! Try my zip code?96826
It is ashamed how your D.O ego gets to your head and try to down play off shore students!!! And before you start talking smack, I graduated with a 3.8 gpa and score a 33 in the mcat?.In case you are just wondering I did not wanted to wait a year in half to apply to a school in the states?.I am currently living my dream..
Please do your homework before you post anything in this forum?..for now, you are just a liar.

Ever heard of putting your foot in your mouth. Well you just did that. The zip code you gave me is for Honolulu, Hawaii. That search bank was for the state of Louisiana. Uh oh...someone just got exposed. Hawaii and Louisiana are in two different states. Try reading the entire URL before you think you have a case. There is a reason why Honolulu's zip code won't yield results on a LOUISIANA website. You just embarassed yourself big time!

Here are two physicians practicing in New Orleans, type in this zip code 70112. That's a 107 DO's in just this zip code Yeah, I'm a liar. What was I thinking? One of these physicians happens to practice on Canal street which is the most prominent street in New Orleans. Keep in mind that there are hundreds of zip codes so if a DO doesn't live in your particular zip code it doesn't mean they aren't in Louisiana.

http://www.loma-net.org/physicianreferral/physicians.asp

How is that foot tasting? I :laugh:

I think it's sad that people will go into osteopathic school without regard for the history and philosophy of osteopathic medicine. I think it takes away from osteopathic medicine when "most of [you] just wanted to be physicians." And to think that some DOs even think that OMM (which is one of the main reasons that makes osteopathic medicine unique and different from allopathic medicine) is "quackery" and have no intent to "practice it" kind of disturbs me.

Osteopathic medicine just doesn't concern OMM. It also includes a focus on preventatitve medicine and care. And contrary to popular believe 95% of osteopathic medicine includes the same principles that are taught in allopathic medicne.

I just went to the aacom.org website and looked at every single osteopathic medical school. On either the AACOM, the osteopathic school's own website, or links off of the osteopathic school websites, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM mentioned a commitment to one or more of the following:

(1) primary care- first and foremost
(2) rural medicine
(3) the underserved

And so I can't help but wonder...isn't "family practice in the middle of nowhere" often consistent with the principles of osteopathy save for the OMM?

Yes, you have a point. And most of us are hypocrites because we aren't exactly down with osteopathic beliefs and medicine. Many of us just wanted to be physicians. I got into my state MD school but I like DO school much better. And for the field I'm considering PM&R, being an osteopath actually has it's advantages so I won't have any trouble matching into PM&R should I become a competitive candidate.

As I've stated before, my brother decided to go to SGU and I totally respect that. I am premed and I will probably apply for US allopathic, US osteopathic, and SGU in 2005 (2006 if I decide to take a glide year to teach at my former high school, do research, or get a MA or MS in bioethics/clinical ethics). As you can see, I am interested in osteopathic medical schools and may attend one in the future. One of the reasons I really respect osteopathy is the philosophy that so many people dismiss as rubbish. I think that people who want to go into medicine not for the money, but for the opportunity to practice primary care and help the most destitute are some of the most respectable doctors out there. They are the people who really understand what medicine is all about. So even if one of these people (osteopathic, allopathic, or FMG-allopathic) is making "130K and work(ing) 50-60 hours" as opposed to some guy that goes into PM&R that is making 200K+ and working less hours, what's your point? As far as I'm concerned people who go into medicine willing to work harder and earn less because they have the genuine intent to help those in need rather than because they wanted prestige, money, or lifestyle, are precisely the types of people who should go into medicine. :thumbup:

You won't be alone. There are many people in osteopathic schools that very pro-DO, very pro osteopathic philosophy. And the people that aren't into OMM and osteopathic philosophy don't have a problem with those who espouse it.

But I'm a practical person. I have no problem admitting that 2/3's of all DO's settled on osteopathic school and that most could care less about OMM. Most DO's wanted to be physicians and would rather deal with a DO title than have an MD title and be at a statistical disadvantage when trying to match into competitive fields.

Daelroy:
"Enter the zip code of the section of the city you are interested and you are bound to find at least one DO. Gotta love the "There are no DO's in my area" excuse. And like always, it never proves to be true."

Well, there are no DO's in my area, however, there are DO'S in my state.....not my area!

Daelroy:
"Enter the zip code of the section of the city you are interested and you are bound to find at least one DO. Gotta love the "There are no DO's in my area" excuse. And like always, it never proves to be true."

Well, there are no DO's in my area, however, there are DO'S in my state.....not my area!

That was a Louisina search site. We were talking about Louisiana since you claimed there were "only a few DO's scattered in the state." I would say that 107 DO's in one zip code of New Orleans is more than a "few scattered in the state." The city I was referring to was NEW ORLEANS not Honolulu, Hawaii. What do you think "section of the city" was referring to? It didn't say "section of the country." Honolulu is not a section of New Orleans. Did you just pull that zip code out of your ***** thinking there would be no DO's in remote Honolulu? nice try

Thanks for Playing! Also keep in mind, there are only 20 DO schools in the country and 13,000 practicing DO's compared to nearly 750,000 MD's in the U.S. Can you comprehend math? Also, look below! This is the SECOND time I have spanked you. Do you want a third spanking; you seem to like them? You are too easy. I suggest actually reading the URL otherwise you would have realized that search engine was for the state of Louisiana and not the entire United States. You are too easy.

Name City State/Province ZIP Primary specialty
Denise C. Kellaher, DO Honolulu
HI

96826 - I believe this is the zip code you were referring to.

http://directory.aoa-net.org/cfm/PublicDisplay.cfm

Psychiatry

Yes, out of 350 graduates, SGU had ONE orthopedic surgeon. They had ZERO neurosurgeons listed. Out of 350 grads, they had ONE opthalmologist. Out of 350 grads, they had TWO PM&R physiatry. They had ZERO radiologists. They had ZERO radiation oncologists. They had ZERO dermatologists (one was incorrectly listed for Harvard). They had a whopping FIVE anesthesiologists out of 350 grads.

wrong. we have 5 radonc docs in residency including me (and you KNOW Im both an sgu grad and in radonc), two derms, two neurosurgeons in the last five years I know of. qnumber of orthopods but i cant tell you the number. many many anesthesiologist which is no biggie since its been easy to get. also a number of radiologists as I know five but again I can't give hard numbders.

BTW the national research winner at the radonc national association is...an sgu grad. A major derm award this year? Sgu grad.

Im afraid you want to hard to make a point you use stats either ignorantly or willfully misleading; i dont know which.

but to clear it up, why is the list ont he web site underrepresenting where sgu grads go?
until this year sgu couldnt get the match list except by getting the info at graduation. thus several things happened:
1) not everyone's info was collected and
2) they asked only for the intern year- so people in radonc, etc (ie specialities) often didnt mention where they were going for pgy-2.

I try very hard not to make comments and give stats about things I know little about just to prove my point. I would kindly ask others to return the favor.

prospectives should read this http://www.sgu.edu/nhome.nsf/webcontent/2CDA044ECC718CCD85256E6A0078E556?OpenDocument and check out the information for themselves rather than take the word of a net user.