As a DO applying to an MD orthopedic surgery residency, I am also planning on doing an osteopathic internship. Does this mean that I will apply to the ortho programs during my internship year or do I apply during my MS IV year.

Thanks guys.

If you are applying for allopathic ortho spots you will be applying for a PGY1 slot, so you will have to apply during your 4th year. Its not like some of the aoa programs, where you have to apply for a PGY2 spot during your internship. If you plan on doing an osteopathic internship and apply for PGY2 allo spot all I can say is good luck. There are very few PGY2 spots that open up and you would have a better chance applying for a pgy1 spot. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter which way you go b/c both osteopathic and allopathic ortho spots are hard to come by.

depends, some states require osteopathic grads to do an osteopathic internship before starting an allopathic residency. If you apply for residency in one of those states, you would do so during your osteopathic internship. If you apply to one of the states that do not require the internship, you could apply during yoru fourth year, but most programs will not offer you a one year leave, so your best bet, if you plan to do an osteopathic internship anyway is to apply during your internship for allopathic PG1 spots and hope that you may luck out and land a PG2 spot somewhere. Don't waste the money as an MSIV if you don't plan on starting the residency for two years.

depends, some states require osteopathic grads to do an osteopathic internship before starting an allopathic residency. If you apply for residency in one of those states, you would do so during your osteopathic internship. If you apply to one of the states that do not require the internship, you could apply during yoru fourth year, but most programs will not offer you a one year leave, so your best bet, if you plan to do an osteopathic internship anyway is to apply during your internship for allopathic PG1 spots and hope that you may luck out and land a PG2 spot somewhere. Don't waste the money as an MSIV if you don't plan on starting the residency for two years.

Technically, those 5 states require that you have completed an osteopathic intership to be eligible to practice in those states. You can do an allopathic residency including the intership in one of those states, but if the AOA does not recognize the internship as being "equivalent" to the osteopathic intersnship, you will not be allowed to practice in that state. If the above poster does want to practice in one of those 5 states, he/she will have to complete the osteopathic internship. Pretty straight foward huh? :rolleyes: I'm not entirely sure about this but I was under the impression that the government won't allow graduates to repeat an internship twice, so applying to a allo pgy1 spot after an osteopathic internship may not be an option. Can anyone clarify this?

Actually, there is some paperwork hoops that have to be jumped through and some CME to be completed, but it is pretty much a formality to get licensed in those five states, from what I have heard.

What would you recommend I do Idio? Apply for ortho in my fourth year or wait until intership to apply. Thanks idio, you have been helpful.

I am currently in one of those 5 states and all the osteo residents that are in our allo programs first completed an osteo internship. They haven't had any funding issues regarding the 2nd internship that I know of, but I can't confirm that right now.

What would you recommend I do Idio? Apply for ortho in my fourth year or wait until intership to apply. Thanks idio, you have been helpful.

Remember that osteo ortho programs are pyrimadal which means they weed 6 of the 8 interns out leaving them to fend for themselves.

The delimma is that if you apply for osteo ortho intern year you and match you are booted out of the allo match for 2005. You can always scramble into a DO intern year and hope to impress the hell out of people in the ortho department, land strong letters, do some research (not sure how this works as an intern), and network like a champ to help you get an osteo ortho position.

Not sure if I'd want to go to wherever the hell Botsford is, but you'll find something.

Vent...would you recommend that I just go ahead and apply to the allopathic match as a MS IV or as an intern? The place that I would like to do my residency has an allopathic ortho program and an osteo. intern program.

Thanks man.

What would you recommend I do Idio? Apply for ortho in my fourth year or wait until intership to apply. Thanks idio, you have been helpful.

Taking an internship without a guaranteed PGY-2 spot scares me, I wont lie. I cant offer much more than that.

Giznut, if you are seriously considering allo you definitely need the stats to be seriously considered, along with prayer to your favorite gods b/c even qualified MDs get rejected. I'm not saying its immpossible b/c its happeded before but I would dare say that if you don't have a usmle step 1 score >230 and are, at the very least, top 25% of your class, or that your dad happens to be the PD, your chances are slim that you will even be given consideration for an interview. If you do have the numbers though I think that you should give it some serious thought to apply to allo programs that are DO friendly. Vent was right that some osteo programs do use a pryamidal system, but currently half the programs now are "linked", meaning that a program can only take the same number of interns for amount of pgy2 spots that they will have opening up. This isn't exactly a guarantee either, it just means that instead of 8 interns competing for 2 spots, they will just have 2 interns, but if you perform "unsatisfactory" they can legally terminate your contract and take someone from out of house. I only know of 2 programs so far that have done this and most students are avoiding those programs like the plague. Most programs will stick with who they choose to go with initially. With that being said, it is still extermely difficult to land a "linked" spot. Hope this helps.

recent JAMA shows that about 1-2% of all Allo spots are filled by DO's, so the deck is obviously stacked against you. You will need a stellar app, great aways, or good connections to get in....all three would really help.

Whereas I hate to be discouraging, obtaining an allopathic ortho spot after osteopathic school is like mission impossible. Your poop cannot stink. However, anything is possible and some do accomplish it. If you think you have a chance for some specific reason(s), then go for it!

You would probably be better off applying for a DO orthopaedic residency. This would typically be done during your 4th year of school. You learn the same things, do the same operations, take care of the same type of patients, and apply for the same type of jobs. I guess there are some limitations, but the work is basically the same.

Good luck to you.

Whereas I hate to be discouraging, obtaining an allopathic ortho spot after osteopathic school is like mission impossible. Your poop cannot stink. However, anything is possible and some do accomplish it. If you think you have a chance for some specific reason(s), then go for it!

You would probably be better off applying for a DO orthopaedic residency. This would typically be done during your 4th year of school. You learn the same things, do the same operations, take care of the same type of patients, and apply for the same type of jobs. I guess there are some limitations, but the work is basically the same.

Good luck to you.

Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if 10 DO's + in a given year match into allo orthopedic surgery. I personally know three people who have. It's not as uncommon as you think. Granted, they aren't at the most prestgious allopathic hospitals and some are in tiny little towns. :) Nonetheless, you are right, there are about 50+ spots for DO ortho which isn't bad considering there are only 20 DO schools and most DO's choose to do primary care. Ortho is one field where I don't think it really hurts to be a DO.

I don't think there is as much DO bias as people let on. Remember that we only have 20 schools compared to 125 allopathic schools so obviously the total number of DO applicants will pale in comparison to allopathic graduates. And for all any of us, how do we know those DO applicants who were rejected all had competitive scores? DO's generally don't exell on the USMLE because they are trained on the COMLEX. So the number of DO applicants with competitive Step 1 scores is probably not that great in number. I'm generalizing of course but I'm not convinced that allopathic PD's don't give DO's a fair chance with the exception of fields like neurosurgery, dermatology, opthalmology and integrated plastics which are impossible for MD's to match in let alone DO's.

Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if 10 DO's + in a given year match into allo orthopedic surgery. I personally know three people who have. It's not as uncommon as you think. Granted, they aren't at the most prestgious allopathic hospitals and some are in tiny little towns. :) Nonetheless, you are right, there are about 50+ spots for DO ortho which isn't bad considering there are only 20 DO schools and most DO's choose to do primary care. Ortho is one field where I don't think it really hurts to be a DO.

I don't think there is as much DO bias as people let on. Remember that we only have 20 schools compared to 125 allopathic schools so obviously the total number of DO applicants will pale in comparison to allopathic graduates. And for all any of us, how do we know those DO applicants who were rejected all had competitive scores? DO's generally don't exell on the USMLE because they are trained on the COMLEX. So the number of DO applicants with competitive Step 1 scores is probably not that great in number. I'm generalizing of course but I'm not convinced that allopathic PD's don't give DO's a fair chance with the exception of fields like neurosurgery, dermatology, opthalmology and integrated plastics which are impossible for MD's to match in let alone DO's.

last year, there were 12 out of 600 spots. I would say that is pretty uncomon...impossible, no, but quite uncomon. And since you brought it up, ortho has fewer FMGs adn DOs than neuro, plastics, derm, or optho.

last year, there were 12 out of 600 spots. I would say that is pretty uncomon...impossible, no, but quite uncomon. And since you brought it up, ortho has fewer FMGs adn DOs than neuro, plastics, derm, or optho.

We are talking about DO's not FMG's. You would be hard pressed to find 12 DO's who matched in all four fields combined let alone in any single one of those fields. I would bet my house that not one DO matched integrated plastics last year or ever for that matter. And I still don't know of any DO who matched in an allopathic neurosurgery program ever. I know of someone who transferred to a program at UC Davis. In 2003, there were only 2 total DO's that matched in dermatology and usually it's been anywhere from 0-3 DO's that match derm every year.

Considering there are 3000 DO's that graduate in a year compared to 16,000 U.S. M.D.'s, it wouldn't suprise me to see that only 12 were accepted given the fact that there are nearly 60 DO ortho positions availaible and the high percentage of DO's who declare for primary care fields. Also, given the unlikelihood that DO applicants had USMLE scores anywhere near that of their M.D. colleagues, 12 isn't suprising.

In short, you are wrong

We are talking about DO's not FMG's. You would be hard pressed to find 12 DO's who matched in all four fields combined let alone in any single one of those fields. I would bet my house that not one DO matched integrated plastics last year or ever for that matter. And I still don't know of any DO who matched in an allopathic neurosurgery program ever. I know of someone who transferred to a program at UC Davis. In 2003, there were only 2 total DO's that matched in dermatology and usually it's been anywhere from 0-3 DO's that match derm every year.

Considering there are 3000 DO's that graduate in a year compared to 16,000 U.S. M.D.'s, it wouldn't suprise me to see that only 12 were accepted given the fact that there are nearly 60 DO ortho positions availaible and the high percentage of DO's who declare for primary care fields. Also, given the unlikelihood that DO applicants had USMLE scores anywhere near that of their M.D. colleagues, 12 isn't suprising.

In short, you are wrong

What exactly am I wrong about? Am I wrong about the # of DO orthopods, or the fact that Ortho has a higher percentage of US MD's than any specialty?

I was just spouting numbers off that I thought I could remember, but since you had to go out and be a prick about it...an uniformed prick at that, I guess I will have to ask when do you want to sign over your house to me buddy.


First of all, I will admit that my numebr of 12 for ortho was wrong....there are only 18 DOs in allo orth for all 3024 spots in the country and 97% of spots filled with US MD's...here are the rest of the numbers for you smart guy.

Neurosurgery...3 DO's out of 775 positions with 93% US MD's
Derm....20 DO's out 994 positions with 89% US MD's
Plastics....1 DO out of 556 positions with 94% US MD's
Ophtho...19 DO's out of 1260 positions with 81% US MD's

SO, it looks like you were wrong about 10+ matching in ortho with 18 total in a 5 year system it is 2-4 per year...pretty damn hard if you ask me. Ortho also appears to be more difficult to match as a DO than Ophtho and Derm and slightly easier to mathc in as a DO than NSG. Plastics is obviously the most difficult match as a DO. If you are not a US MD, however, Ortho is definitely the most difficult match out there.


How do you like me now?

What exactly am I wrong about? Am I wrong about the # of DO orthopods, or the fact that Ortho has a higher percentage of US MD's than any specialty?

I was just spouting numbers off that I thought I could remember, but since you had to go out and be a prick about it...an uniformed prick at that, I guess I will have to ask when do you want to sign over your house to me buddy.


First of all, I will admit that my numebr of 12 for ortho was wrong....there are only 18 DOs in allo orth for all 3024 spots in the country and 97% of spots filled with US MD's...here are the rest of the numbers for you smart guy.

Neurosurgery...3 DO's out of 775 positions with 93% US MD's
Derm....20 DO's out 994 positions with 89% US MD's
Plastics....1 DO out of 556 positions with 94% US MD's
Ophtho...19 DO's out of 1260 positions with 81% US MD's

SO, it looks like you were wrong about 10+ matching in ortho with 18 total in a 5 year system it is 2-4 per year...pretty damn hard if you ask me. Ortho also appears to be more difficult to match as a DO than Ophtho and Derm and slightly easier to mathc in as a DO than NSG. Plastics is obviously the most difficult match as a DO. If you are not a US MD, however, Ortho is definitely the most difficult match out there.


How do you like me now?

WRONG Again-

What exactly are you wrong about? For one thing,integrated plastics isn't the same as a plastic fellowship. You are wrong about implying that it is more difficult for a DO to match into allo ortho than allo derm, neurosurgery, opthalmology and integrated plastics. And I find your numbers to be a little sketchy. Ever heard of a URL. For one thing, 20 DO's in allo derm would mean 4 DO's per year were accepted into an allopathic derm program. Knowing that in some years 1 or no DO's were taken, I find it hard to believe that 6 or 7 DO's matched allo derm in a given a year. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/longk/DermMatch2003.htm

Count the number in each class. Oohh, how ya like that

Okay, I tried to be nice but since you are trying to cover your ass after being proven wrong, I will just stick it to you. Unfortunately, we were not talking about percentages, we were talking about the likelihood that a DO could nail an allo ortho spot vs. allo derm, INTEGRATED plastics, optho and neuro. Also, we were not talking about the total number of spots granted in a 5 year period. For all we know, 25 or 30 ortho positions could have been granted in the previous 5 years.

How many DO's matched in ortho vs. Integrated Plastics, Neurosurgery, Derm and Optho last year? Also, there is a difference between integrated plastics and plastics genius. Integrated plastics are the 5-6 year programs you match into directly out of medical school. I'm not talking about a plastics fellowship attained after a general surgery fellowship. There has not been one DO that has ever matched in integrated plastics. And just so there isn't any confusion, I clearly stated INTEGRATED plastics in my initial post. Looks like I'm keeping that house. Also, even if only 4 DO's matched in Ortho last year, that is definitely more than all of the DO's that matched in Derm(1), Neurosurgery(o), and Plastics (o) for LAST YEAR. Also, find me a match list where one DO matched in Neurosurgery in the last 3 years? I know one DO Neurosurgeon who transferred to an MD program at Cal Davis.

Okay smart guy since I know you will try to offer some weak rebuttal, go to the General Residency and the Osteopathic forum and post a thread stating that it is harder for a DO to match into allo Ortho Surgery than Allo Derm, Plastics, Neurosurgery and Optho. That should be entertaining. Don't worry, I know you don't have the balls to do that because nearly everyone of us "misinformed" people would laugh at you.

WRONG Again-

What exactly are you wrong about? For one thing,integrated plastics isn't the same as a plastic fellowship. You are wrong about implying that it is more difficult for a DO to match into allo ortho than allo derm, neurosurgery, opthalmology and integrated plastics. And I find your numbers to be a little sketchy. Ever heard of a URL. For one thing, 20 DO's in allo derm would mean 4 DO's per year were accepted into an allopathic derm program. Knowing that in some years 1 or no DO's were taken, I find it hard to believe that 6 or 7 DO's matched allo derm in a given a year. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/longk/DermMatch2003.htm

Count the number in each class. Oohh, how ya like that

Okay, I tried to be nice but since you are trying to cover your ass after being proven wrong, I will just stick it to you. Unfortunately, we were not talking about percentages, we were talking about the likelihood that a DO could nail an allo ortho spot vs. allo derm, INTEGRATED plastics, optho and neuro. Also, we were not talking about the total number of spots granted in a 5 year period. For all we know, 25 or 30 ortho positions could have been granted in the previous 5 years.

How many DO's matched in ortho vs. Integrated Plastics, Neurosurgery, Derm and Optho last year? Also, there is a difference between integrated plastics and plastics genius. Integrated plastics are the 5-6 year programs you match into directly out of medical school. I'm not talking about a plastics fellowship attained after a general surgery fellowship. There has not been one DO that has ever matched in integrated plastics. And just so there isn't any confusion, I clearly stated INTEGRATED plastics in my initial post. Looks like I'm keeping that house. Also, even if only 4 DO's matched in Ortho last year, that is definitely more than all of the DO's that matched in Derm(1), Neurosurgery(o), and Plastics (o) for LAST YEAR. Also, find me a match list where one DO matched in Neurosurgery in the last 3 years? I know one DO Neurosurgeon who transferred to an MD program at Cal Davis.

Okay smart guy since I know you will try to offer some weak rebuttal, go to the General Residency and the Osteopathic forum and post a thread stating that it is harder for a DO to match into allo Ortho Surgery than Allo Derm, Plastics, Neurosurgery and Optho. That should be entertaining. Don't worry, I know you don't have the balls to do that because nearly everyone of us "misinformed" people would laugh at you.


plastics vs integrated plastics doesn't really matter...I already said it is harder to get into plastics. There is only 1 DO in 500+ plastics spots in the country...I don't know if it is integrated or not. I also didn't say that it was harder to match in ortho than neurosurg, based on the numbers, it is slightly harder to match in neurosurg as a DO than Ortho. However, based on the numbers of DOs in each residency it is more difficult to match in ortho as a DO than it is to match in derm or ophtho. The numbers I posted are directly from JAMA last week, so I trust that they are correct. I think it is less likely that they are more sketchy than a personal web page. Go to your library if you don't believe them. By the way, how do you think it is possible that there were 25-30 ortho spots offered last year, when there are only 18 DO ortho in all allo ortho residencies?

The question is ....how many DO's actually applied to MD ortho programs...and how many didn't match? I don't think that there are many DO's that apply to the allo match.

The question is ....how many DO's actually applied to MD ortho programs...and how many didn't match? I don't think that there are many DO's that apply to the allo match.

Agreed

Considering there are 58 or so ortho spots that are available only to DO's, it's not difficult to see why.

Easy boys...

Starting to reconsider ortho...any DO's out there care to comment on the 'DO-friendly' ortho progs that I might want to rotate at?

Starting to reconsider ortho...any DO's out there care to comment on the 'DO-friendly' ortho progs that I might want to rotate at?
I know very little about this, but I do know that there are several DOs that have matched at Medical College of Georgia ortho residency program in recent years (just about one out of three spots for every year is held by a DO)... check out the website.

Here is a question for anyone knowledgable about the osteopathic programs....does anyone know which programs are "linked" now? Also, which programs are considered better and which ones should you stay away from? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

If you go to the AOA website you will find a list of programs that are linked. However, b/c the AOA is so organized :rolleyes:, the best thing to do is call each program that is not listed b/c some are but it has not been updated on the website. Examples are Columbus, Independence, and Des Peres. As to which programs are the best, I would have to say that the top programs are Grandview, Botsford, Mt Clemens, Ingham, and Genesys. Most programs in Michigan and Ohio are solid. I assume you attend OSU and they have a solid program and have just exapnded to take 2 reseidents per year. If you're interested in PCOM or Pinnacel at Harrisburg, I would discourage you from trying to match at those programs b/c they heavily favor students from PCOM. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

Here's the website.
www.do-online.org
Then click on student and resident resources. The click the opportunities page.

I only know of 2 programs so far that have done this and most students are avoiding those programs like the plague. Most programs will stick with who they choose to go with initially. With that being said, it is still extermely difficult to land a "linked" spot. Hope this helps.


which 2 programs

DOindahouse I pm'd you.

plastics vs integrated plastics doesn't really matter...I already said it is harder to get into plastics. There is only 1 DO in 500+ plastics spots in the country...I don't know if it is integrated or not. I also didn't say that it was harder to match in ortho than neurosurg, based on the numbers, it is slightly harder to match in neurosurg as a DO than Ortho. However, based on the numbers of DOs in each residency it is more difficult to match in ortho as a DO than it is to match in derm or ophtho. The numbers I posted are directly from JAMA last week, so I trust that they are correct. I think it is less likely that they are more sketchy than a personal web page. Go to your library if you don't believe them. By the way, how do you think it is possible that there were 25-30 ortho spots offered last year, when there are only 18 DO ortho in all allo ortho residencies?

I know that your messages are from a while ago, but I needed to respond to them. I just hope that neither you nor the guy you have been responding to were accepted into an ortho residency program. I do not want to be in a profession with to people like you.

I know that your messages are from a while ago, but I needed to respond to them. I just hope that neither you nor the guy you have been responding to were accepted into an ortho residency program. I do not want to be in a profession with to people like you.



maybe you should consider internal medicine then buddy...I am already in an ortho program. Good luck in the match...

I know that your messages are from a while ago, but I needed to respond to them. I just hope that neither you nor the guy you have been responding to were accepted into an ortho residency program. I do not want to be in a profession with to people like you.

Let's get this straight, you created an ID just to respond to a post from several months ago just to let us know you don't approve of us.

Naw.....too easy :laugh:

Actually orthoman05, they make good arguments. Another (I think biggest) factor in the equasion is what giznut brought up. How many actually apply MD ortho .....and see it to the end. Everyone who wanted to do ortho in my class (and I mean everyone) applied ERAS and AOA match and when they knew there fate in the DO world proceeded from there (AOA match is first) If they matched, they got kicked out of the ERAS system. Now Ortho is crazy tough to match in both matches, and the AOA spots pick the best of the best and offer spots to them before the match (applicants usually hear through the "grapevine" to keep the program out of trouble) So, the field is usually picked over by the time the ACGME match occurs throwing out most of these stats, and I'm sure that transcends over the other specialties as well. Those DO's that match MD ortho are usually those that know beforehand, or those that are creme de' la' creme and take an extreme gamble. Our #1 guy, 252 USMLE, and good ortho research took the first spot offered to him... which happened to put him at Bi-County DO ortho program. I would have loved to see if he would have landed an MD spot.

maybe you should consider internal medicine then buddy...I am already in an ortho program. Good luck in the match...


Maybe I will consider IM. Anyway, if you're already in an ortho program, then maybe you should spend a little more time studying your Ortho instead of wasting your time on this forum.

Maybe I will consider IM. Anyway, if you're already in an ortho program, then maybe you should spend a little more time studying your Ortho instead of wasting your time on this forum.


mom...is that you???

Let's get this straight, you created an ID just to respond to a post from several months ago just to let us know you don't approve of us.

Naw.....too easy :laugh:

Not as easy as getting into DO school. :meanie: :meanie: :meanie:

ok, about the DO ortho programs. whats this about them being pyramidal? even if you match into the residency program itself, you're only guaranteed your PGY1 internship year? you have to slit the throats of everyone else in the program to keep going?

which ones are like this? and which ones are actually completely linked programs years 1-4 etc?

what do the people who are SOL and get cut from the program end up doing? they just get credit for an internship and try to re-match somewhere or in something else? all this sounds scary.

how does the DO ortho match work anyway? are the DO ortho progs letting you match in for your PGY2 as an MSIV, the way anesthesiology does in allo?

ok, about the DO ortho programs. whats this about them being pyramidal? even if you match into the residency program itself, you're only guaranteed your PGY1 internship year? you have to slit the throats of everyone else in the program to keep going?

which ones are like this? and which ones are actually completely linked programs years 1-4 etc?

what do the people who are SOL and get cut from the program end up doing? they just get credit for an internship and try to re-match somewhere or in something else? all this sounds scary.

how does the DO ortho match work anyway? are the DO ortho progs letting you match in for your PGY2 as an MSIV, the way anesthesiology does in allo?

Traditionally in the past none of these programs were linked and they would take as many interns who were interested in getting a PGY2 spot. So what you would end up with is 8-10 interns competing for 2-3 PGY2 spots. Once they landed a PGY2, they finished out the remainder of the residency. Those that didn't land a spot were forced to pick a residency in a different specialty.

Now, about 4-5 years ago some of the less popular programs decided to link the internship with the residency, meaning that if you landed the internship you would go on to the PGY2 spot w/o fear of someone else taking it (basically the same as the MD programs). The reason that the less popular programs did this was to attract better candidates from the more popular programs. Over the next couple of years, this forced more programs to link b/c the quality of their applicants was going down. Currently, about 20 of the 29 programs are "linked" and every year more programs end up "linking".

Matching ortho, whether its allopathic or osteopathic, is a very difficult task b/c there are many more applicants than spots. The reality is that many people are turned away and have to choose another profession.

just curious what programs you more vehement posters are associated with...

[QUOTE=Gibby Haynes]Giznut, if you are seriously considering allo you definitely need the stats to be seriously considered, along with prayer to your favorite gods b/c even qualified MDs get rejected. I'm not saying its immpossible b/c its happeded before but I would dare say that if you don't have a usmle step 1 score >230 and are, at the very least, top 25% of your class, or that your dad happens to be the PD, your chances are slim that you will even be given consideration for an interview.


The fact that qualified MD's get rejected has absolutely nothing to do with the issue and can be construed as quite offensive. Considering that a D.O is in every way shape and form just as qualified as an M.D. to complete an orthopedic residency. D.O friendly programs has nothing to do with it either...My advice to any D.O who is interested in an M.D. ortho spot is to do a rotation with that program. Audition yourself and demonstrate leadership skills and excellent medical knowlege...you will without a doubt be granted an interview (As I was). Few D.O's are in M.D. ortho spots because most top D.O. applicants match in the D.O. match...which is earlier than the M.D. match. I must say having rotated at both M.D. and D.O. ortho programs that D.O. ortho programs will give just as good an education as M.D. residency programs. Most M.D. programs are in fact quite open and prefer to accept the most qualified applicant. That means YOU D.O...but you just have to audition yourself with a rotation.

Make your life easier find a linked osteopathic ortho program and gun for it. All of this other crap is too damn complicated. As for the guy that says where the heck is Botsford. Its probably one of the top 3 osteopathic ortho programs in the country. I think Grandview is very good as well. I won't say which one I'm from but we compete for "Ortho trackers" every year and alot of students will hit Botsford and Grandview, then the competition begins. Personally I just don't see the benefit of doing an allopathic residency. You have liscensing issues and other headaches. Being a DO orthopod is a great thing. Think about it, the vast majority of DOs go into primary care, much higher percentage than MDs do. You have a built in referral base in alot of areas ,especially in the midwest, that are going to roll to you when you come in.

I wouldn't worry too much about not making it to PGY2. If a programs says they are linked I wouldn't worry about it. The truth is you are vulnerable every single year. You sign year to year contracts in residency. I would be more concerned about the hospital's financial stability i.e. the texas program. Its not like you are Tom Brady and going to ink a 5 year contract when you match a spot. But if you behave like TO then you can be canned. Just not in your last 6 months of residency.

Make your life easier find a linked osteopathic ortho program and gun for it. All of this other crap is too damn complicated. As for the guy that says where the heck is Botsford. Its probably one of the top 3 osteopathic ortho programs in the country. I think Grandview is very good as well. I won't say which one I'm from but we compete for "Ortho trackers" every year and alot of students will hit Botsford and Grandview, then the competition begins. Personally I just don't see the benefit of doing an allopathic residency. You have liscensing issues and other headaches. Being a DO orthopod is a great thing. Think about it, the vast majority of DOs go into primary care, much higher percentage than MDs do. You have a built in referral base in alot of areas ,especially in the midwest, that are going to roll to you when you come in.
Having gone through the old system that is 1 of 10 interns trying to get 1 of 2-3 spots in ortho created a crappy intern year. I was glad when programs started to link. You cannot believe the stress and tension between the interns competing for the ortho spots. Even after the annoucement there was a alot of resentment between thoses that got a spot and thoses that did not. In my opinion, the whole issue about DOs applying for MD ortho residencies has been blown out of proportion. Thoses DOs fortunate enough to land a MD ortho residency is still going to graduate from residency as a DO. The liscensing headaches are real, I know of one such individual who spent a year trying to obtain recognition of his sugical internship. In the end he had to make up deficiencies because his internship was not an osteopathic rotating internship. He peformed additional rotations during his busy residency, I don't know how he pulled it off. Once he completed his rotations he obtained a state license and DEA number. This is insanity and happen to him since he was in one of those states that required an osteopathic internship. Anyway most ortho residents do fellowships and obtaining a competitive fellowship as a DO is not difficult. The playing field for fellowships is fairly level for both MDs and DOs. There are major differences between MD and DO residencies which is another discussion all together. As I said before the best residency is the one you get into MD or DO. All DO programs are accredited by the American Osteopathic Academy of Orthopedics (AOAO) and have to meet stardards. I remember when I was a medical student interested in ortho the AOAO close down 4 ortho programs because they failed to meet their standards. Be assured whatever DO program a person gets into he/she will graduate a competant orthopedic surgeon capable of handling general orthopedics. Just offering another opinion.

Be assured whatever DO program a person gets into he/she will graduate a competant orthopedic surgeon capable of handling general orthopedics. Just offering another opinion.
The bottom line
great post
end of discussion

If you're interested in PCOM or Pinnacel at Harrisburg, I would discourage you from trying to match at those programs b/c they heavily favor students from PCOM. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.
Well, I just matched into Pinnancle Health and I'm from Oklahoma. Another guy who matched is from Arizona.....Hence 2 out of 3 from Out of State.

What exactly am I wrong about? Am I wrong about the # of DO orthopods, or the fact that Ortho has a higher percentage of US MD's than any specialty?

I was just spouting numbers off that I thought I could remember, but since you had to go out and be a prick about it...an uniformed prick at that, I guess I will have to ask when do you want to sign over your house to me buddy.


First of all, I will admit that my numebr of 12 for ortho was wrong....there are only 18 DOs in allo orth for all 3024 spots in the country and 97% of spots filled with US MD's...here are the rest of the numbers for you smart guy.

Neurosurgery...3 DO's out of 775 positions with 93% US MD's
Derm....20 DO's out 994 positions with 89% US MD's
Plastics....1 DO out of 556 positions with 94% US MD's
Ophtho...19 DO's out of 1260 positions with 81% US MD's

SO, it looks like you were wrong about 10+ matching in ortho with 18 total in a 5 year system it is 2-4 per year...pretty damn hard if you ask me. Ortho also appears to be more difficult to match as a DO than Ophtho and Derm and slightly easier to mathc in as a DO than NSG. Plastics is obviously the most difficult match as a DO. If you are not a US MD, however, Ortho is definitely the most difficult match out there.


How do you like me now?


haha i like you. Thats tight. Thats why I like ortho. Its awesome.

haha i like you. Thats tight. Thats why I like ortho. Its awesome.
I hope it continues to be very hard. No more new residency spots and continue the shortage. Sounds good to me.

I was on the Orthopedic residency page of Tulane randomly.. and it seems like they just excepted half of their residency class as DO's. Although that is only 1 out of 2 spots.

And I am doing some ortho research at Cinncinati Childrens.. I noticed that two resident roatators in ortho ped are DO's.. one from Oklahoma and one from NYCOM... so Cincinnati seems open to DO's.

[QUOTE=Gibby Haynes] Most M.D. programs are in fact quite open and prefer to accept the most qualified applicant. That means YOU D.O...but you just have to audition yourself with a rotation.

I really didn't believe this at first so I emailed PD's at a number of MD ortho programs asking their honest opinions on this whole subject. Three PD's returned my email today telling me they're really just interested in finding the best candidate and don't care much about the initials behind your name. If you score well on the boards, have a great audition rotation, and are fun and easy to get along with you have a decent chance at matching into an MD ortho spot. I'm sure there are plenty-o-programs that will exclude you because you're a DO, but that shouldn't be too discouraging. I have competitive board scores and tried my hardest to learn as much orthopedic surgery over the past year and I think I'm a good candidate for any program. But lemme tell you if I match into a D.O. program I'm going...without a doubt a bird in the hand is worth 100 in the bush.

I commend you for your actions, most people would not have had the guts to email different PDs to ask for their opinions. Keep in mind, you may not get a completely honest answer. It does not make sense for PD to openly discriminate against DOs and state their views in public (a personal email can become public information). Take their responses with a grain of salt. PDs often will not consider a DO canidiate because we have our own residencies. DO ortho residencies are open to DOs but not to MDs, yet DOs can apply to MD ortho residencies. Is this fair or unfair to the MDs, most MD applicants will tell you that this is completely unfair and the PDs know this. For every 1 DO that gets an allopathic residency, I can give you the names of 20 that failed to land a MD residency. These canidates were not slackers, already a self-select group of people with board scores in the 95th %+ and 1 or 2 class rank were repeatly rejected from MD programs. The ones I know that got spots had extensive and well established connections, attending's son/daughter or special circumstances. The DO that got into Tulane accomplished a difficult feat and should be congradulated for his hard work. Keep in mind that he applied post-Katrina when 2 out of the 3 hospitals in New Orleans shut down, lost faculty, and residents had to relocate to other states to finish their training. The programs had fewer applicants that year and in the process of rebuilding. The situation in Cincinnati consist of DO rotators and fellows, a different ball of wax altogether, 100% of their ortho spots are filled by MDs. What would I advise other DOs; strong applicants should attempt to land a MD spot if that what they want, I would not give up a DO ortho spot in hopes of securing a MD spot that would be foolish.

I agree with Pin-Lag-Lock, if a DO applicant truly wants MD ortho and feels that they are competitive against the best of the best MD applicants than apply to MD ortho programs and definitely do an audition rotation there.

BUT, my question is...what's wrong with DO programs. If you want to be an orthopedic surgeon, either route will train you well. Ortho is hard to match into whether it be DO or MD. If DO applicants have the luxury of DO ortho programs solely for DOs...take advantage of that. There are pros/cons to DO vs. MD programs (pm me if you'd like), but both will prepare you to practice on your own.

With that said, I think many DO applicants could be very competitive in the MD ortho world. But it is true that these top DO applicants are offered DO spots early on and it would be foolish to push those aside. Reject sure thing for a chance at another. It takes a lot of soul searching to figure out if you're willing to risk not matching by going for an MD spot.

IF you want to try at MD ortho, ROTATE there. No matter what the bias, if you show up, work hard, bring your "A" game and you have an application that rivals competitive MD applicants, I believe that you will be viewed as an equal come rank list time.

It is a tough road, but in the end very exciting. Good luck.

CP

pm me with any questions

No offense but DO's in an MD Ortho program are like unicorns...I've heard of them but I've never actually seen one. (and that's after 5 years of residency)

No offense but DO's in an MD Ortho program are like unicorns...I've heard of them but I've never actually seen one. (and that's after 5 years of residency)


No offense taken

http://www.ttuortho.com/view_biography.asp?ID=17

http://www.ttuortho.com/view_biography.asp?ID=16

http://www.hscj.ufl.edu/ortho/osr/residents.asp

http://www.mcg.edu/resident/ortho/currentres.html

http://cms.clevelandclinic.org/ortho/body.cfm?id=243

If you ever do run into a unicorn don't play leap frog with it.

No offense, I've never been called a unicorn before though. It can happen. My program has had 2 previous DOs that I know of in their existence as a residency program.

So it has been answered that landing a spot in allo programs is possible and doable.
but, why? what's so good about allo ortho programs? You are a DO no matter what programs you are in and you treat the same types of patients. Why bother?
No offense, I just don't understand it.

So it has been answered that landing a spot in allo programs is possible and doable.
but, why? what's so good about allo ortho programs? You are a DO no matter what programs you are in and you treat the same types of patients. Why bother?
No offense, I just don't understand it.

There is a common belief in the DO world that MD training is better in one regard or another. I don't blame them for wanting the best training possbile, but that belief is unfounded in my experience and definately isn't true in my program or any of the 5 that I rotated at as a student (3 DO and 2 MD). Fact is, all programs have their problems. Examples... weak didactics, no tumor, not enough cases, too much of one subspecialty, or fellows/chief residents doing all the operating. Those are a range examples of problems ANY program from the Best MD/DO programs to the worst MD/DO programs can have. Trick is to find out where the best fit for you is at and go for it.

No offense taken

http://www.ttuortho.com/view_biography.asp?ID=17

http://www.ttuortho.com/view_biography.asp?ID=16

http://www.hscj.ufl.edu/ortho/osr/residents.asp

http://www.mcg.edu/resident/ortho/currentres.html

http://cms.clevelandclinic.org/ortho/body.cfm?id=243

If you ever do run into a unicorn don't play leap frog with it.


I think that yes it is doable, but it is very hard. If you look at table 11 of the NRMP match data from this year (2008) it shows that the aren't that good:

Number of DOs matched to MD Ortho positions:
2004: 1
2005: 4
2006: 3
2007: 2
2008: 2 (out of 636 positions)

So of those links that you are showing above they make up about half of the DOs that matched in the last 5 years.

But how many actual DO's applied MD ortho? I can't think that it would be that many. I'm contemplating applying MD ortho as a DO, and scored well 245/99 on STEP I, but I know it will be an uphill battle being a DO. I did talk to a program director I know and he thought I was a very competitive applicant and they have ranked DO's in the past, but who knows for sure. Definitely have to shine on some aways and all that good stuff.

My problem with the DO ortho, is that most of them are not in places that I want to live, I really want to stay in the midwest and I have a family with kids, so that is important to me, but most DO ortho are in Michigan, ohio, or further east. Very few in the midwest.

Yea, showing the number who matched allo MD as a DO is kind of unfair. The DO match is first, and once you match you are taking out of the allopathic. It takes someone pretty ballsy to skip out on the osteopathic match and only put your eggs into MD. The ones that do tend to have very strong stats.

True...every ortho program (MD or DO) has their advantages and disadvanatages. I rotated at some DO programs that were better than some of the MD community hospitals that I interviewed at. It all depends on what you want out of your training and career. It's been beaten to death that the general opinion is that DO = community hospital, early surgical experience, little formal didactics and MD = big, academic institution, possibly less operative experience, structured didactics. In general, yes...it seems true. But you may thrive in one versus the other. In the end, both DO and MD trained orthopedic surgeons are the same...orthopedic surgeons. And, you'd be kidding if you didn't agree that Grandview, PCOM, or Doctor's is more presitigious than Hopkins, HSS, Mayo, Cleveland clinic. Does prestige matter? No, but those institutions are at the forefront of orthopedics in the world, can't deny that.

:confused: