My father who has practiced in the states for over 25 years has seen the good and bad of family practice. Although he specialized in internal medicine, he is a family doc. Well, I watched him raking in over 100k a month and now he barely makes 10k. It's pretty friggun crazy.

I spoke to him today about whether I should enter his field. Let's face it, we're going to medical school and all the crazy residency stories so I want to be compensated.

He says he is not making much money nowadays because he is old and doesn't want to work so hard. I also hear that his colleagues that are family docs are doing very, very well. With 3 clinics in spanish areas of Los Angeles, they are doing very well.

At my interviews, when I told my interviewers that I wanted to be a family doc, 2 / 4 expressed their concern to me that I won't make as much I used to as a business owner (20k/mo.). Something in line with " Are you sure you want to go into family practice and make significantly less when you left such a successful company". Well, I am not in this for the money, but I don't want to be punished for going through all the schooling either...

So, if you open up a couple clinics, have some fresh docs work for you and put a little business into it, can you live a lifestyle that I feel we all deserve? Or is it still a battle with HMOs and all the b.s. that exists today?

Thank you for all of your input. It's greatly appreciated.

Edit: Fresh docs = right out of school and in debt

Hmm, I'm just trying to wrap around your father's past income. So he made more than a million dollars a year? At a time when a house cost like $10K? :confused:

I can just imagine life at your house: "What's that, OnMyWayThere, you want a new car? Sure, Daddy will just work 3 extra hours this week". ;)

It just seems a little unbelievable.

At medicaleconomics.com you can find the average incomes per specialty. FP is beaten by everyone except pediatricians and GPs (which is a dying breed anyway). I have always theorized that the income distribution for FPs has a larger SD than other specialties because of the broad practice scope, though, but I don't know if that's true.

Interesting topic, btw.

Hmm, I'm just trying to wrap around your father's past income. So he made more than a million dollars a year? At a time when a house cost like $10K? :confused:
He did make more than a million dollars a year... I guess you are unaware of the 80's.

I can just imagine life at your house: "What's that, OnMyWayThere, you want a new car? Sure, Daddy will just work 3 extra hours this week". ;)
Not even close. It was more like " drive this Toyota til you're 18 and old enough to work and buy your own car"

It just seems a little unbelievable.

At medicaleconomics.com you can find the average incomes per specialty. FP is beaten by everyone except pediatricians and GPs (which is a dying breed anyway). I have always theorized that the income distribution for FPs has a larger SD than other specialties because of the broad practice scope, though, but I don't know if that's true.

Interesting topic, btw.

I was actually asking if it's possible to still make a good living if one ties in the business aspect of the world to his/her practice. I guess it is possible though, just takes some strategies that were unnecessary in the past.

I still find it hard to believe. The average income now for an FP is around 130K. With inflation, are you saying doctors have taken a 90+% salary cut since the 80s? :wow:

I still find it hard to believe. The average income now for an FP is around 130K. With inflation, are you saying doctors have taken a 90+% salary cut since the 80s? :wow:

You have not helped answer my question one bit, but to answer you question, go back to my original post and read it over... focus on the part that said

He says he is not making much money nowadays because he is old and doesn't want to work so hard.

That should answer the question you have just stated. Back to the topic please.

OnMyWayThere

One of the great parts about family practice is there are so many options. If you read some of the previous threads you will see people talk at length about this issue, one option is to acquire the training for many different procedures. If a family physician does lots of procedures and has other doctors working under him he has the potential to make a very adequate income, probably not what your father was making. But it's not unreasonable for a family physician doing procedures to make 150,000-250,000. Then if he has 2 doctors working under him, he would probably pocket 30,000-60,000 dollars from each doctor.
Just my thoughts, as a 3rd year medical student, take it for what it's worth

OnMyWayThere

One of the great parts about family practice is there are so many options. If you read some of the previous threads you will see people talk at length about this issue, one option is to acquire the training for many different procedures. If a family physician does lots of procedures and has other doctors working under him he has the potential to make a very adequate income, probably not what your father was making. But it's not unreasonable for a family physician doing procedures to make 150,000-250,000. Then if he has 2 doctors working under him, he would probably pocket 30,000-60,000 dollars from each doctor.
Just my thoughts, as a 3rd year medical student, take it for what it's worth

That's good enough. I don't plan on becoming a millionaire pursuing medicine, but I just don't want to fight to make some extra money for all the hard work ahead. Thanks for your response. I just wanted some outside opinions. :thumbup:

You have not helped answer my question one bit,

Whoa whoa, calm down buddy, I'm no expert at this. I don't know exactly what it is you want to know. I can just repeat myself and tell you that FPs make little money compared to some other specialties. The average annual income is now around 130K. Whether it was once 10 times more, I really don't know; I'm just saying I strongly doubt it. Maybe your dad just did some lucrative procedures or had lots of people under him; I suspect he was the exception to the rule.

Like bmickelsen suggested, there is a wide span of incomes out there for FPs but if you're looking to make a million dollars a year, FP is not the smartest choice. (Actually, med school probably isn't the smartest choice......) :)

OTOH, many FPs live in a rural areas where the money stretches further. These days, that's a huge factor in what sort of standard of living you'll have. In some areas, on 130K, you'll be the richest guy in town. I guess everything is relative that way. And to sound really lame, wealth isn't just about money.

OnMyWayThere,

I can truly understand where you are going with this, since as I've said in many postings, there is a whole wealth of income that the FP doc is not tapping into.

We can't practice today's medicine with yesterday's approach. Nowadays, a pt would feel cheated if they didn't get a vascular study, endoscopic procedure, pulmonary function test, immunotherapy panel, full blood work up, and whatever else they feel we need to diagnose their illness. All of these procedures we can provide as FP docs.

This is medicine, and, b/c of HMOs and insurance, it is also a consumer driven market. We provide a service now that is not so inaccessible to the public. If a pt. doesn't like you, they can go elsewhere, and pay the same copay. So to them, nothing is lost. We have to find a way around that for our own personal survival. This is so easy to do within the scope of our practice, no "get rich quick schemes" here!

So now with the advance of medicine, we are now able to get certification and hire ancillary staff to help us perform the very procedures that are driving up the cost of medicine. In addition to that, we can hire staff (PAs, new docs, NP, RN, CNA, LPN, etc.) to staff our practices to help improve productivity. Add in the "Bedside Manner" we try to perfect, and you have happy people. Happy pts, happy staff, and happy doctor that has a grip on it.

This is family medicine today, and I just love when people interested in other specialties try to compare. Specialists don't have the capability to cater to their customer like Primary care docs can. An orthopedic surgeon can make alot of money just by providing their service. An opthamologist can make money by just treating eyes. But the two specialties don't have the flexibility that FP can afford.

An FP can make the same money as the two by just using business sense, and at the same time, do what they love, see a variety of illness, and enjoy the schedule they like. An FP practice can't be run by just blind medicine and faith in insurance reimbursements.

Ok, don't know where all that came from, but I stand behind it! lol

Thanks BelKicker for giving your insight... that's more what I was asking. :thumbup:
Hey dr_almondjoy_do, that was a great post. I appreciate your effort in clearing that up. I just kept hearing all this negative stuff from interviewers to docs about how I will be struggling as a FP. I was really thinking I must go into a specialty and that was not my original plan. I was hoping I would hear everything you just said. Thanks!
I guess before it was almost as easy as opening up shop and being in good shape. That's simply not the case now and that's just fine with me. But the scope of practice for a FP is indeed very attractive. It seems as though if one doesn't want to have business involved and still wants to make some money, it is best to specialize. Thanks for the input guys. :horns:

OnMyWayThere,

I know exactly where you are coming from. The 80s were very good to doctors and I have no doubt your dad was pullin in some major cash, even as a family medicine doctor. It's all about business sense. Making money may have been easier for our fathers, but with ingenuity, hard work, and a solid business plan I think we can match their revenue. Don't let people dissuade you with the averages they looked up. In my community I know of a family med physician that has several offices, associates, ancillary staff, and a lab. I would not be surprised if he makes well over a million. If you have great business skills and can capitalize on opportunity, then the sky is the limit. I have heard the same BS while on interviews about family med not making money. However, I think the people who make these statements are ignoring the possibilities that exist for people like us who are willing to take chances and act on our entrepreneurial spirit. So, to answer your question, yes you can still make similar money as your dad once did. You just have to adapt to the market. On the other hand, if you simply set up shop someplace without much organization and vision for the future, then plan on being average.

capt

OnMyWayThere,

You said it best when you said that doctors that just want to open shop and make money should specialize. They will get paid for making widgets all day, and they'll be very happy.

When you look at your fellow classmates, I know you will find a good number that would be eaten alive in the real world. These people specialize. No need to think about anything else except for the work at hand, and the end of the day. I'm sure it's reassuring to know that you just do your job and go home and bank, but that gets so tired after a while, especially having to work 80-100 hrs a week, and having to spend so many years as fellows and residents. No money there until they're completely done!

I wonder why people even compare. FPs have such a wide range of hours worked, and compared to surgeons and other specialists that work 100 + weekly, how can you compare their pay to a Family doc that works 50 hrs, no call always, and a flexible schedule?

We need to find a source that shows payment per hour.

Here's hours worked per specialty. As far as I could tell, FPs work less than every other specialty except GPs and pediatricians.

http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=127161&&pageID=2

Now, here's the average wages earned by specialty:

http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=112482

I was wrong yesterday. I guess FPs actually make 150K on average with the average male FP making 180K. That's comparable to IM. 3% of FPs reported earnings above 400K.

Right on. :thumbup: It makes sense.

Hello,
I think that a Sticky/FAQ on family practice is WAYYYY overdue. Although I have been swamped lately, I will try to work on one. Having been in private practice for over a year, I got quite a few things to say...

PEACE!

-Derek

Hello,
I think that a Sticky/FAQ on family practice is WAYYYY overdue. Although I have been swamped lately, I will try to work on one. Having been in private practice for over a year, I got quite a few things to say...

PEACE!

-Derek

Please do share whenever you get a chance. I'm sure lots of people would like to hear. Thank you for your insight :thumbup:

please don't post a sticky letting people know how sweet FP really is, b/c then we'll have board score posts and "Do you think I can get in with a 99%, top person in my class, saved the free world, and cured cancer? I'm worried because I didn't get a LOR from the surgeon general..."

No really, I do feel it's long overdue.....Thanks!

OnMyWayThere,

You said it best when you said that doctors that just want to open shop and make money should specialize. They will get paid for making widgets all day, and they'll be very happy.

When you look at your fellow classmates, I know you will find a good number that would be eaten alive in the real world. These people specialize. No need to think about anything else except for the work at hand, and the end of the day. I'm sure it's reassuring to know that you just do your job and go home and bank, but that gets so tired after a while, especially having to work 80-100 hrs a week, and having to spend so many years as fellows and residents. No money there until they're completely done!

I wonder why people even compare. FPs have such a wide range of hours worked, and compared to surgeons and other specialists that work 100 + weekly, how can you compare their pay to a Family doc that works 50 hrs, no call always, and a flexible schedule?

We need to find a source that shows payment per hour.


Okay, I'm going to play the other card on this one. There are plenty of specialties where one can make more with seeing fewer patients, less call, and with fewer or comparable hours to a FP. Rads, rad onc, derm, anes, ophtho, GI, EM, ENT, rheumatology, nuc med, etc. just to name some. Another plus to specializing is that you can focus on medicine instead of dealing with as much paper work and all the other managed care hassles. And with some specialties, you won't even have to worry about running a practice/business which would free up your time to pursue other interests. And since when did FP's have no call? Flexible schedule? They always seem tied to their pagers.

252 Step I, 243 Step II, 3 publications in American Family Physician, AOA senior year. Can I get a spot in a competitive FP program?

:) Sorry, could not resist.

252 Step I, 243 Step II, 3 publications in American Family Physician, AOA senior year. Can I get a spot in a competitive FP program?

:) Sorry, could not resist.

:rolleyes: :D

252 Step I, 243 Step II, 3 publications in American Family Physician, AOA senior year. Can I get a spot in a competitive FP program?

:) Sorry, could not resist.

highly unlikely. I would try a less competitive specialty like ortho or derm. Good luck.

It's not just your board scores or publications. FP is about people and how you deal with them. Most FP doctors are down to earth and laid back. If you are that person, then you should shine.

you scores get you an interview, who you are get you a job.

Best wishes,

EH.

It's not just your board scores or publications. FP is about people and how you deal with them. Most FP doctors are down to earth and laid back. If you are that person, then you should shine.

you scores get you an interview, who you are get you a job.

Best wishes,

EH.


That is very true, but you can always have a back up, like gyn/onc or cardiothoracic surgery....lol

Okay, I'm going to play the other card on this one. There are plenty of specialties where one can make more with seeing fewer patients, less call, and with fewer or comparable hours to a FP. Rads, rad onc, derm, anes, ophtho, GI, EM, ENT, rheumatology, nuc med, etc. just to name some. Another plus to specializing is that you can focus on medicine instead of dealing with as much paper work and all the other managed care hassles. And with some specialties, you won't even have to worry about running a practice/business which would free up your time to pursue other interests. And since when did FP's have no call? Flexible schedule? They always seem tied to their pagers.


Yeah, but you failed to remember how long it takes for these students to become doctors. Some of these specialties, besides EM, derm, rads, will have you as a resident/fellow until you're 40 if you started early enough. FP is a two year residency, and one year traditional/rotating internship. Three years top, and you are on the way! Plenty of time to scut at group practice and get real life knowledge in a real practice before running your own.

You are right when you say that these people make money, and they do, but they don't have the freedom of variety like fp does. FP is truly for creative people to make money and like it. But you have to be that kind of person.

I would love to manage my practice and know what is coming in and out. I hear alot of rich, bored specialists at my hospital now complaining still about protocols, policies, hours, call schedules, alloted time in the OR, hospital priviledges, etc, etc, etc..... bottom line, they are making good money, but they are not their own boss. I think its important to like what you do where and how you do it. These people work so hard and went to school for so long.

And FP docs do not have to take call if they have an agreement with a hospital for inpatient care by a hospitalist, and they can do outpatient only. Then they use the inpatient care in collaboration with their office care. An inpatient doc does have to do call. I don't mind it, but its not mandatory.

Sorry, but I had to do it! The thread is about the status of FP today, not "how can I make the most $$$$ and work the least, but spend more time as a medical student?" lol

That's funny. Your going to use cardiothorasic surgery as you back up. hehe.

Good luck man.

Usually it's the other way around.

They are not even in the same catagory. One is primary care and the other is ultra-subspecialty.

During the interview the guy is going to ask you why you want to get into cardio surgery and your gonna say hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm well I could not get into FP. lol.

He is going to say. GET REAL.

EH.

That's funny. Your going to use cardiothorasic surgery as you back up. hehe.

Good luck man.

Usually it's the other way around.

They are not even in the same catagory. One is primary care and the other is ultra-subspecialty.

During the interview the guy is going to ask you why you want to get into cardio surgery and your gonna say hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm well I could not get into FP. lol.

He is going to say. GET REAL.

EH.

dood?? itz a joke...

My father who has practiced in the states for over 25 years has seen the good and bad of family practice. Although he specialized in internal medicine, he is a family doc. Well, I watched him raking in over 100k a month and now he barely makes 10k. It's pretty friggun crazy.

I spoke to him today about whether I should enter his field. Let's face it, we're going to medical school and all the crazy residency stories so I want to be compensated.

He says he is not making much money nowadays because he is old and doesn't want to work so hard. I also hear that his colleagues that are family docs are doing very, very well. With 3 clinics in spanish areas of Los Angeles, they are doing very well.

At my interviews, when I told my interviewers that I wanted to be a family doc, 2 / 4 expressed their concern to me that I won't make as much I used to as a business owner (20k/mo.). Something in line with " Are you sure you want to go into family practice and make significantly less when you left such a successful company". Well, I am not in this for the money, but I don't want to be punished for going through all the schooling either...

So, if you open up a couple clinics, have some fresh docs work for you and put a little business into it, can you live a lifestyle that I feel we all deserve? Or is it still a battle with HMOs and all the b.s. that exists today?

Thank you for all of your input. It's greatly appreciated.

Edit: Fresh docs = right out of school and in debt


You know, I think that your father is giving you really good advice. It also seems that you have quite the entrepreneurial spirit. I'd hate to see that dampened by medical school and then by finally killed by going into family practice. To go give up your successful business and go to medical school and do a residency would be economic suicide.

I guess it boils down to if you are business oriented and a people person or not. The latter must specialize if he/she wants a good income.
Banner... My father didn't really give me advice on what to get into it, other than what I will enjoy. I was an entreupeneur and a successful one. I don't see why I can't use those skills once I am done with medical school and residency? I love medicine. I love people. And I like business. You mentioned that going to medical school and family practice would be an economic suicide but from the above posters, it seems like it's not for a person like myself. I am not trying to become a millionaire from medicine, I just don't want to make 10k before taxes, student loans, malpractice, etc. Can you elaborate on how it would be an economic suicide for a person like me though?

I was an FP PA with 1 other PA and 3 total docs. We did no special procedures although I personally did toenails, biopsies, excisions, and other small things. We worked in a suburb of a major city, each saw about 25 patients a day, and in the end we were truly nothing more than a med refill office liberal in our referrals. Even such, the PA's made 100K, and the docs each made about 180K, 250K, and 350K respectively...ballpark area. We had one satellite clinic with another doc, and we just all had good bedside manners where patients came to see us because they liked us. My guess is that if we had done more procedures, and branched out and worked harder to see more patients, we could have done even better. The myth that FP's make 120K is based on the idiots who came into FP and have no people skills, and don't want to work more than 36 hours per week. And rural FP is even higher potential for pay.

I've heard a few docs mention, as you have, "if an FP chooses to be aggressive with procedures, he/she could make much more." I know FP's are doing biopsies, cryotherapy and such but when you say "more procedures," Exactly what procedures are you speaking of? How aggressive do you have to be to do them?

And how many hours were you guys working? Any call? Weekends.

Finally, if anyone cares to chime in, I'd love to hear about the economics of contracting with hospices and nursing facilities in terms of time invested and income generated from them.

Thanks

I just wanted to say this is turning into one helluva thread. :thumbup:

I just wanted to say this is turning into one helluva thread. :thumbup:

Its about time the family medicine forum represented. :thumbup:

Its about time the family medicine forum represented. :thumbup:


dewd.... :cool:

DOOD!! :mad:

dude?? :confused:

hehe... dwed.....

hey so you are gonna goto kcumb for shure then?? kewl... :thumbup:

I've heard a few docs mention, as you have, "if an FP chooses to be aggressive with procedures, he/she could make much more." I know FP's are doing biopsies, cryotherapy and such but when you say "more procedures," Exactly what procedures are you speaking of? How aggressive do you have to be to do them?

And how many hours were you guys working? Any call? Weekends.

Finally, if anyone cares to chime in, I'd love to hear about the economics of contracting with hospices and nursing facilities in terms of time invested and income generated from them.

Thanks


FP's do the following (not an exhaustive list):

PAPs
Colposcopies
Biopsies (of all sorts)
LEEPs
C-Sections
Vasectomies
Endoscopies
Sigmoidoscopies
Colonoscopies
Circumcisionss
Joint injections
Central lines
Venous Cut-downs
Incision & Drainages (I&Ds)
Casting
Suturing of Lacs


The list is actually pretty long and includes plenty of things that I probably left out. Feel free to add to the list...


Willamette

treadmill stress tests
cryotherapy (skin lesions, cervical dysplasias, etc.)
spinal taps

Thoracentesis
Paracentesis
Minor Cosmetic Procedures With Appropriate Training(botox, Etc)

dewd.... :cool:

DOOD!! :mad:

dude?? :confused:

hehe... dwed.....

hey so you are gonna goto kcumb for shure then?? kewl... :thumbup:

Yep, it's KCUMB for sure!! :D

if an fp pa can do it then an fp doc can too.....I'm talking rural here of course.....I know of primary care rural pa's who have tapped large malignant pleural effusions to ease work of breathing in fairly sick folks at a distance from a tertiary care facility.

FP's do the following (not an exhaustive list):

PAPs
Colposcopies
Biopsies (of all sorts)
LEEPs
C-Sections
Vasectomies
Endoscopies
Sigmoidoscopies
Colonoscopies
Circumcisionss
Joint injections
Central lines
Venous Cut-downs
Incision & Drainages (I&Ds)
Casting
Suturing of Lacs


Outside of bumbleding, WY. An FP will not get priveleges to do many of these procedures in hospitals. Most FPs will not take on the added liablility due to soaring malpractice.

I am almost about 75% done with the sticky...As soon as I get it done, it will be posted....


-Derek

how exactly does malpractice insurance work when you are an fp attending who wants to do these things? does the amount you pay to the ins co depend on what type of practice you plan to do (hospital, outpt, both, er, etc.)??

I'd like to know if a FP who is EMcertified gets paid and treated the same as a physician who has completed a residency in Emergency Medicine???

I'd like to know if a FP who is EMcertified gets paid and treated the same as a physician who has completed a residency in Emergency Medicine???

Do a search in the EM forum about family practice or FP. They talk about it in there quite extensively.

I am almost about 75% done with the sticky...As soon as I get it done, it will be posted....


-Derek

Eagerly waiting ot read it. :thumbup:

The list of procedures that I saw in this page is correct, EXCEPT:

What you have to realize is that you don't do all of these on a regular basis. And not all insurance pays for all of the above procedures.


What you need to do is advertise for a specific procedure that the other guys are not doing. Everybody does paps.

The ones that make money are the injections. (just as an example)

Advertise for joint pain, discomfort. Do hylan injections.

EH.

WOOHOO!!!

It is done and will be posted shortly...By the way, whoever moderates this group, can you pelase hook a brotha up with a moderator position on this board??? please?? :D

-Derek

If one chooses to go into cosmetic as a family doc... is lip augmentation (via collagen injection or implant) out of the family doc's scope of practice? If so, are there problems associated with doing it as a family doc (malpractice coverage / liability)? Thanks :thumbup:

PACtoDOC, I am pasting my private message to you because your box is full.

I wanted to thank you first for answering questions that I posted on the FP thread, you've been a lot of help in clearing up many important facts!
I realize a family doc can focus on dermatology and advertise "Dermatology". I've seen several successful practices doing such out here in Los Angeles. I am wondering, will your malpractice insurance charge you higher premiums because you are not a board certified dermatologist doing those procedures (using Dermatology as an example here, not my particular interest)? Will they even cover you if you screw up since that's not what you were trained to do in your post graduate training? I realize you are given the title of Physician and Surgeon and can do virtually anything that you know how to, but doesn't liability play a factor in this such as those I mentioned (coverage, higher costs, etc.)?

Sorry about the ignorance in this area! I appreciate you filling me in. Thanks a lot! :thumbup:

I do these procedures in my office.

I had to pay extra. It is considered under catagory 2 in my state. Catagory 3 would be if I did ER as well. Catagory 2 is the level of Urgent care medicine.

It was not that much more.

EH.

I do these procedures in my office.

I had to pay extra. It is considered under catagory 2 in my state. Catagory 3 would be if I did ER as well. Catagory 2 is the level of Urgent care medicine.

It was not that much more.

EH.

If you don't mind sharing, may I ask what state you're in and approximately what premiums run there? Here in AZ I believe our FP's pay 14K per year for the basic premium. And what is the differential for category 2 and 3?

what procedures can you do as an FP in a big city?

Eric

Did you have to attend many seminars or courses to become comfortable with these procedures, or did performing these procedures feel natural to you?

Hmm, I'm just trying to wrap around your father's past income. So he made more than a million dollars a year? At a time when a house cost like $10K? :confused:

I can just imagine life at your house: "What's that, OnMyWayThere, you want a new car? Sure, Daddy will just work 3 extra hours this week". ;)

It just seems a little unbelievable.

At medicaleconomics.com you can find the average incomes per specialty. FP is beaten by everyone except pediatricians and GPs (which is a dying breed anyway). I have always theorized that the income distribution for FPs has a larger SD than other specialties because of the broad practice scope, though, but I don't know if that's true.

Interesting topic, btw.
I often thought about this also. I think part of the reason these surveys show such low salaries may be due to women starting a family and working less. My wifes last physician worked for a group part time (~20hr/wk) because she had a few kids and didn't want to work that much. She said she was making like 80K, but her husband more than made up for her missed income. There could be many stories like this that bring down the stats. Look at the salary survey for FP (w/o OB) below. It actually goes down at the >3yrs in practice. Maybe thats a typo, but I can't explain it any other way.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

Let me chime in here with my fourth year medical student opinion which is worth what it is worth as I have gleaned it from medical students, residents, practicing FPs, and administrators:

As you may know, I scrambled into Familiy Practice and have only recently learned a little about the compensation available for FPs. I am feeling better and better about it the more I learn.

1. It may be true that the median income for FPs is only 130,000 per year. But it is also true that most of the 130,000 per year jobs I have seen listed are for four days per week of eight hour days. Seems like a pretty good salary for a lifetime of three-day weekends.

2. It is also true that the median income might be dragged down by a few factors. First, the survey does not take into account all forms of compensation. An FP (who wants to do the survey) might dutifully report only his salary but not his production bonus, his moonlighting, or the big chunk of his student loans that many of the jobs I have seen posted agree to pay off (usually in the form of a loan which is forgiven if the doctor stays for a contractually agreed upon time).

Second, there are a few major markets where a glut of all physicians leads to lower slaries. I understand that the 120K and below salaries are typical of the East Coast, the West Coast, and places like Colorado. You take a salary hit for wanting to live in a place where you can get designer sushi at 4 AM. If you are willing to practice in "flyover country," however, not only will greater demand drive up your compensation but the cost of living is lower allowing you to live better. In my hometown (where I plan on returning), $300,000 buys you a 4000 square foot mansion on 2 acres. In San Francisco it buys you what we would call a **** hole here in Louisiana.

Folks. Indianapolis, Omaha, Dubuque, Little Rock, Shreveport, and half a hundred up and coming American cities are great places to live.

I know an FP who told me that in exchange for working in a small town in Louisiana, he got a 16,000/month salary guarantee for three years, a 50,000 loan to pay back his studeent loans which would be forgiven after three years and he practices in an underserved area so the state pays off 15,000 of his student loans per year (for three years).

3. I have been told (so I don't know if its true) that patients are in plentiful supply wherever you go. Consequently, your income is limited to a large extent by how hard you want to work. I imagine that a four-day per week job supplemented with a little moonlighting in an ED or in an urgent care clinic (or even working five days as opposed to four per week) would boost your income considerably.

Are we going to get rich in familiy practice? Probably not. On the other hand we have a three year, relativley benign residency which gives you a lot of flexibility and the opportunity make a respectable amount of money in a useful and respected career. Will we have to work harder than some other specialties to make the same money they can make working four day weeks? Probably but those are the breaks. You can always work 20 hours per week and still make an income which puts you in the top one percent of wage earners in my state. Hell, many of my neighbors salivate at the idea that I will be making the princely sum of $40,000 per year as a resident. This is a lot of money down here. Many families live on about that or less.

Well have you heard of any doctors that travel long distances? I am interested in working in one area that is underserved in the midwest and does compensate well, but if I do this I want to work 3-4 days a week and commute home. I know there are locum tenens jobs that may allow this, but I don't know..

Hell, many of my neighbors salivate at the idea that I will be making the princely sum of $40,000 per year as a resident. This is a lot of money down here. Many families live on about that or less.

Exactly! :thumbup:

This is why people annoy me who say, "Oh, we will only be making $130k." Only??? In the town I am from this is a ton of money. I will be more than happy to make $130K as an FP.

Exactly! :thumbup:

This is why people annoy me who say, "Oh, we will only be making $130k." Only??? In the town I am from this is a ton of money. I will be more than happy to make $130K as an FP.


FPs make a lot more than 130K in my neck of the woods. Of course, it depends on how you practice, how much you want to work, and your priorities. 130K is the salary for for a typical four-day-per-week schedule.

I think the only thing you give up salary-wise as an FP compared to other specialities is that you generally have to live in a more rural area to maximize your compensation. This is no sacrifice for me as I want to live in a rural area. If you want to live in the San Francisco Bay area, on the other hand, you might not even be able to afford a decent house as an FP.

Medicaid, for example, only pays 35 dollars for a "well-child" visit in our city but 90 dollars for the exact same visit in a rural area. This is a huge difference, especially since this kind of patient is going to be a big part of your practice in FP (and Peds, of course).

Additionally, there is a shortage of doctors almost everywhere in "flyover country" so you will have plenty of patients wherever you go. There is a huge demand for FPs and other primary care doctors everywhere except the coasts and a few other metropolitan conglomerates.

please define "flyaway" state....i know what i coastal state is, but just making sure..

please define "flyaway" state....i know what i coastal state is, but just making sure..

i think you mean flyover, and it basically means country that has nothing particularly interesting or any attractions to itlike large cities or museums, operas, famous restaurants, etc.... we are talking about farm land, ranches, swamps, and the like....



http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=flyover+country&defid=235463

http://www.wordspy.com/words/flyovercountry.asp

i think you mean flyover, and it basically means country that has nothing particularly interesting or any attractions to itlike large cities or museums, operas, famous restaurants, etc.... we are talking about farm land, ranches, swamps, and the like....



http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=flyover+country&defid=235463

http://www.wordspy.com/words/flyovercountry.asp

It means a state which is held in disdain by those who live on the coasts even though its inhabitants probably enjoy a higher quality of life for much less money.

For the price that my twin brother paid for a 1400 square foot house in the Boston area you can get a house three times the size with a huge yard and a swimming pool here in Shreveport.

Certainly there is more "culture" in Boston but like Joesph Geobbels when I hear the word "culture" I reach for my revolver.

PACtoDOC, I am pasting my private message to you because your box is full.

I wanted to thank you first for answering questions that I posted on the FP thread, you've been a lot of help in clearing up many important facts!
I realize a family doc can focus on dermatology and advertise "Dermatology". I've seen several successful practices doing such out here in Los Angeles.

There is a caveat to all this A Family Doc can hang "dermatology" on his shingle but he can't hang dermatologist on it. You can practice dermatology much the same way a general dentist can practice orthodontistry. However,a general dentist can't call himself an orthodontis and a Family Doc can't call himself a dermatologist.

The idea of the FP playing the dermatologist is catching on and is becoming pretty common. By the time you graduate, nearly every FP is going to incorporate dermatology and cosmetic procedures in his or her practice. General internists are doing the same thing. It doesn't take much expertise to hire a technician and attend some weekend seminars to acquire some vauge dermatology credentials or be a part of some vague cosmetic/dermatology board. The FP docs that are doing this at the moment are reaping close to a 1/2 a million dollars per year but as more and more FP's and Internists catch on, the market is going to be saturated especially by the time you graduate. And it doesn't help that news organizations like Dateline are allerting the public of the difference between an FP and a dermatologist. At the moment, the public is not aware of any distinction between the two but that will soon change. It has for other procedures.

Don't get me wrong, i don't think there is anything ethically, morally or legally wrong with an FP practicing dermatology. I think this is a turf war issue. But a major reason these FP's are receiving cosmetic related business is the public is pretty ignorant as to what constitutes an FP practicing dermatology vs. a dermatologist much like they don't know the difference between a board certified plastic sugeon vs. a general surgeon/oral surgeon w/a 1 year cosmetic fellowship.

It means a state which is held in disdain by those who live on the coasts even though its inhabitants probably enjoy a higher quality of life for much less money.

For the price that my twin brother paid for a 1400 square foot house in the Boston area you can get a house three times the size with a huge yard and a swimming pool here in Shreveport.

Certainly there is more "culture" in Boston but like Joesph Geobbels when I hear the word "culture" I reach for my revolver.

It's always funny when I hear big city people talk as if small town America is some paradise. I grew up in a small city in Texas much like Shreveport; population was ~ 150K. Let's just say that I'm not white. Growing up there was an experience because your race, religion and nationality is always an issue. Most of the time, it's not a bad issue but you are constantly treated as if you are foreigner despite the fact that I was born and raised in the U.S. and is a red blooded American male just like anyone else. I would get asked all the time why I didn't have an accent when i spoke English. When i told them that I was born and raised in the U.S., they still didn't get it. It was just so unbelievable to them that a person of a different race could speak English with an American accent because they assumed my parents taugh me English so I should have an accent like them. When it came to dating, there were issues too because I wasn't Christian. People would come up to me and say they are going to pray for me because they thought I was going to hell. They would remind me to my face that I was going to hell. Some women wouldn't date me because their parents frowned on dating someone of a different race. It was okay for me to be friends with their daughter but I wasn't allowed to date them.

And lastly, the racial jokes were irritating. In the South and in small towns, people there believe it's okay to use racial epithets on a regular basis. It's strange because these people were not racist per say,they were not trying to offend me but they thought it was okay to use the word N word, gook or camel jockey in a joking manner and that I should just go along with it because they were trying to be funny. And my race was always an issue. If someone met me, the first they noticed about me was my race and ask what country I was from. Even my so-called friends tried to make me out as a stereotype as opposed to a person. Again, these people had very little exposure so they didn't know better.

While we are at it. Let's talk about the quality or lack thereof of high school education. Football and sports were number one at my school. The education was substandard. We spent an entire year, learning to write one term paper. We had an "honors" system at my high school but it was more or less a class distinction. The preppy kids were in the honors classes despite the rigor of the classes were not much more difficult than the regular classes. They just found a way to prevent the rich kids from being in class with the blue collar kids. The odd thing is the blue collar kids and the rich kids had the same mentality. Unlike wealthy parents in more diverse cities, in our city, the wealthy inherited their wealth so their mentality was very blue collar. Most rich parents didn't make anything of themselves and usually inherited property, oil wells or some business like the local mill or bottling company. My classmates that chose to attend college usually went to the state school for the purpose of joining a frat and partying.

I live in a large city now and I would never expose my children to that backward life I experienced. It's funny because I'm treated like a normal person now but it was quite a challenge growing up in the South. My parents chose to live in small town America to escape the hustle of living in New York City. Yes, the cost of living was low and the stress on my parents (physicians) was low because small town life has it's perks.

I think if you are a white, conservative and Christian, small town life is great. I think you will fit in but if you are liberal, and/or not white, small town life can be hell. It was for me. And I think liberal is a strong word to describe me. I'm not liberal in the sense that most people define liberal but relative to where I was, I was pretty liberal.

I'm just presenting this view because I keep hearing on SDN about how these physicians think it's going to be perfect when they move to some small city in the South because they can make a lot of money and have a low cost of living not to mention reduced stress. But there is definitely a price to paid for lving in a small city. I'm not an intellectual snob. I don't need to live in a city like Boston to have access to great restaraunts and museums. But I realize now that living in a large metropolitan city on one of the coasts has it's advantages because you get to be around normal people. I don't think it is asking too much to be surrounded by people who educated and tolerant. That is a huge perk in and of itself.

There is a caveat to all this A Family Doc can hang "dermatology" on his shingle but he can't hang dermatologist on it. You can practice dermatology much the same way a general dentist can practice orthodontistry. However,a general dentist can't call himself an orthodontis and a Family Doc can't call himself a dermatologist.

The idea of the FP playing the dermatologist is catching on and is becoming pretty common. By the time you graduate, nearly every FP is going to incorporate dermatology and cosmetic procedures in his or her practice. General internists are doing the same thing. It doesn't take much expertise to hire a technician and attend some weekend seminars to acquire some vauge dermatology credentials or be a part of some vague cosmetic/dermatology board. The FP docs that are doing this at the moment are reaping close to a 1/2 a million dollars per year but as more and more FP's and Internists catch on, the market is going to be saturated especially by the time you graduate. And it doesn't help that news organizations like Dateline are allerting the public of the difference between an FP and a dermatologist. At the moment, the public is not aware of any distinction between the two but that will soon change. It has for other procedures.

Don't get me wrong, i don't think there is anything ethically, morally or legally wrong with an FP practicing dermatology. I think this is a turf war issue. But a major reason these FP's are receiving cosmetic related business is the public is pretty ignorant as to what constitutes an FP practicing dermatology vs. a dermatologist much like they don't know the difference between a board certified plastic sugeon vs. a general surgeon/oral surgeon w/a 1 year cosmetic fellowship. Once the public becomes informed, you will see the demand drop as they become more selective as to where they get their cosmetic prodedures.

sure they can. dermatologist = someone who practices dermatology.

you just cannont say you are bc/be in dermatology. but sure, dermatologist? go ahead....

It's always funny when I hear big city people talk as if small town America is some paradise. I grew up in a small city in Texas much like Shreveport; population was ~ 150K. Let's just say that I'm not white. Growing up there was an experience because your race, religion and nationality is always an issue. Most of the time, it's not a bad issue but you are constantly treated as if you are foreigner despite the fact that I was born and raised in the U.S. and is a red blooded American male just like anyone else. I would get asked all the time why I didn't have an accent when i spoke English. When i told them that I was born and raised in the U.S., they still didn't get it. It was just so unbelievable to them that a person of a different race could speak English with an American accent because they assumed my parents taugh me English so I should have an accent like them. When it came to dating, there were issues too because I wasn't Christian. People would come up to me and say they are going to pray for me because they thought I was going to hell. Some women wouldn't date me because their parents frowned on dating someone of a different race. It was okay for me to be friends with their daughter but I wasn't allowed to date them.

And lastly, the racial jokes were irritating. In the South and in small towns, people there believe it's okay to use racial epithets on a regular basis. It's strange because these people were not racist per say,they were not trying to offend me but they thought it was okay to use the word gook or camel jockey in a joking manner and that I should just go along with it because they were trying to be funny. And my race was always an issue. If someone met me, the first they noticed about me was my race and ask what country I was from.

While we are at it. Let's talk about the quality or lack thereof of high school education. Football and sports were number one at my school. The education was substandard. We spent an entire year, learning to write one term paper. We had an "honors" system at my high school but it was more or less a class distinction. The preppy kids were in the honors classes despite the rigor of the classes were not much more difficult than the regular classes. They just found a way to prevent the rich kids from being in class with the blue collar kids. The odd thing is the blue collar kids and the rich kids had the same mentality. Unlike wealthy parents in more diverse cities, in our city, the wealthy inherited their wealth so their mentality was very blue collar. Most rich parents didn't make anything of themselves and usually inherited property, oil wells or some business like the local mill or bottling company. My classmates that chose to attend college usually went to the state school for the purpose of joining a frat and partying.

I live in a large city now and I would never expose my children to that backward life I experienced. It's funny because I'm treated like a normal person now but it was quite a challenge growing up in the South. My parents chose to live in small town America to escape the hustle of living in New York City. Yes, the cost of living was low and the stress on my parents (physicians) was low because small town life has it's perks.

I think if you are white, conservative and Christian, small town life is great. I think you will fit in but if you are liberal, and not white, small town life can be hell. It was for me. And I think liberal is a strong word to describe me. I'm not liberal in the sense that most people define liberal but relative to where I was, I was pretty liberal.

I'm just presenting this view because I keep hearing on SDN about how these physicians think it's going to be perfect when they move to some small city in the South because they can make a lot of money and have a low cost of living not to mention reduced stress. But their is definitely a price to paid for lving in a small city. I'm not an intellectual snob. I don't need to live in a city like Boston to have access to great restaraunts and museums. But I realize now that living in a large metropolitan city on one of the coasts has it's advantages because you get to be around normal people. That is a huge perk in and of itself.

forgive me, but you sound like you are whinning. i grew up in a big city and occasionally got the chance to get out to a small town. i think what you saw was that most ppl fell into these clics. same thing happens in a big city, just that the minority groups have more members so you dont notice it as much.

for some of us, the ppl on the coasts or big cities are NOT normal, and so the small towns are more pleasant/peaceful and more inviting to us.

apparently you did not have this feeling. but some of us do.

if you want to practice medicine in a big city. go ahead, most doctors do.

sure they can. dermatologist = someone who practices dermatology.

you just cannont say you are bc/be in dermatology. but sure, dermatologist? go ahead....

I would be careful before assuming this information. This could be considered some type of fraud or misrepresentation. I personally know a lot of FP docs who practice as dermatologists and they are careful not to refer to themselves as a dermatologist. I will ask them to clarify and post my findings.

forgive me, but you sound like you are whinning. i grew up in a big city and occasionally got the chance to get out to a small town. i think what you saw was that most ppl fell into these clics. same thing happens in a big city, just that the minority groups have more members so you dont notice it as much.

for some of us, the ppl on the coasts or big cities are NOT normal, and so the small towns are more pleasant/peaceful and more inviting to us.

apparently you did not have this feeling. but some of us do.

if you want to practice medicine in a big city. go ahead, most doctors do.

No offense but your response didn't suprise me. When I saw jesus freak in your label, I immediately realized you are representative of the people I described so obviously you took offense of my account. How else do you explain how someone could ignore the racist and closed minded elements I spoke of and justify that as merely being cliquish. You and I obvously have very different values.

forgive me, but you sound like you are whinning. i grew up in a big city and occasionally got the chance to get out to a small town. i think what you saw was that most ppl fell into these clics. same thing happens in a big city, just that the minority groups have more members so you dont notice it as much.

for some of us, the ppl on the coasts or big cities are NOT normal, and so the small towns are more pleasant/peaceful and more inviting to us.

apparently you did not have this feeling. but some of us do.

if you want to practice medicine in a big city. go ahead, most doctors do.

I guess you missed that part where he said "I think if you are white, conservative and Christian, small town life is great." Most self admitted "Jesus freaks" like yourself tend to fit this descrpition. He wasn't referring to people like you. He was referring to people like me who are not religious or conservative. I'm considering practicing in a small town for the lifestyle, not for it's cultural values. I enjoyed reading Daelroy's account and he touched upon issues I had not considered. Anyway, i think if you two want to continue this discussion just pm each other. Let's not turn this into a liberal vs. conservative values thread.

sure they can. dermatologist = someone who practices dermatology.

you just cannont say you are bc/be in dermatology. but sure, dermatologist? go ahead....

This is simply not the case. That person does in fact have to be bc/be in dermatology. Advertising "dermatology" is one thing. Advertisising as a dermatologist is something entirely different.

forgive me, but you sound like you are whinning. i grew up in a big city and occasionally got the chance to get out to a small town. i think what you saw was that most ppl fell into these clics. same thing happens in a big city, just that the minority groups have more members so you dont notice it as much.

for some of us, the ppl on the coasts or big cities are NOT normal, and so the small towns are more pleasant/peaceful and more inviting to us.

apparently you did not have this feeling. but some of us do.

if you want to practice medicine in a big city. go ahead, most doctors do.

You are pretty rude if you ask me. He was merely offering an account of his life and you completely belittled his experience. You sound like a typical closed minded, conservative person who has no tolerance for other cultures or faiths. Apparently racism and religious intolerance don't seem to be major vices in your view so maybe small town life in the deep south might serve you well.

To Daelroy

I wouldn't depict all small towns as being conservative. I grew up in a small town in New England. Many towns in New England are small but very liberal and open minded. Schools in those areas are known for being excellent as well. I hope you don't depict all small towns as the one you grew up in. I'm considering moving back and should you ever consider small town life, check out New England.

No offense but your response didn't suprise me. When I saw jesus freak in your label, I immediately realized you are representative of the people I described so obviously you took offense of my account. How else do you explain how someone could ignore the racist and closed minded elements I spoke of and justify that as merely being cliquish. You and I obvously have very different values.


i still live in the city, and everyday i encounter ppl who are mock me for believeing in Jesus or people of different races who talk a different language to get around me or look at me strange. the neighborhood i live in is predominantly a different race than i am.

am i offended by your accounts? no. i am just giving you my prospective on yours since i am already in a big city.

i still live in the city, and everyday i encounter ppl who are mock me for believeing in Jesus or people of different races who talk a different language to get around me or look at me strange. the neighborhood i live in is predominantly a different race than i am.

am i offended by your accounts? no. i am just giving you my prospective on yours since i am already in a big city.

Did it ever cross your mind that maybe you offend people by trying to push your religion on others? I'm Catholic but I'm not a freak about my religion? I don't know how you act but many jesus freaks are very pushy with their religion and can tend to annoy people. And many people speak a different language because they don't speak English well and it's easier to communicate in their native language out of ease. I don't think they are speaking a second language just to talk behind your back.

You are pretty rude if you ask me. He was merely offering an account of his life and you completely belittled his experience. You sound like a typical closed minded, conservative person who has no tolerance for other cultures or faiths. Apparently racism and religious intolerance don't seem to be major vices in your view so maybe small town life in the deep south might serve you well.

to me he was being rude, putting anyone who is white or christian or conservative as equal to racist small town idiots.

any generalization you can make, will backfire. just because im christian does not mean im white, and just because im christian does not mean im racist.

:(

Did it ever cross your mind that maybe you offend people by trying to push your religion on others? I'm Catholic but I'm not a freak about my religion? I don't know how you act but many jesus freaks are very pushy with their religion and can tend to annoy people. And many people speak a different language because they don't speak English well and it's easier to communicate in their native language out of ease. I don't think they are speaking a second language just to talk behind your back.

actually i had a few friends that actually understood them and said a few of the things they were saying were pretty mean. its easy to make fun of someone when you are "behind a mask"....

im sure people can become offended if you try to push your religion on them, or tell them what people in their religion are like, just as has been done here to me. I do not push my religion on anyone. if you would like to discuss christianity, i will be more than glad to comply. but i believe that God gave everyone one power - to chose, so no matter what you do/say you are never going to force someone to believe whatever someone else believes. it is always that person's choice.

i am a Jesus freak, because many people around me, some of my friends, and some close family are very synical about christianity and think of me as a freak. so i have personally taken the name as a sort of honor actually.

to me he was being rude, putting anyone who is white or christian or conservative as equal to racist small town idiots.

any generalization you can make, will backfire. just because im christian does not mean im white, and just because im christian does not mean im racist.

:(

He never said that. He said if you are a combination of white, christian and conservative, then you might enjoy the South. You misread it completely. And it's true for the most part. Let's be honest, many people in small towns in the rural south are caucasian, southern baptist and conservative.

to me he was being rude, putting anyone who is white or christian or conservative as equal to racist small town idiots.

any generalization you can make, will backfire. just because im christian does not mean im white, and just because im christian does not mean im racist.

:(

How do you know that he is wrong? Are you a non-white and non-Christian person who was raised in a small town in the South? Maybe there is some validity to his account? I didn't get the notion that he was generalizing. It sounded autobiographical to me. And you have to be careful about lumping Christians because there are so many denominations and not every denomination shares the same beliefs. Southern Baptists are very different from Episcopaleans for example. There is a major difference between a fundamentalist Christian and a non-practicing one. Maybe you attract attention because you are a fundamentalist Christian?

He never said that. He said if you are a combination of white, christian and conservative, then you might enjoy the South. You misread it completely. And it's true for the most part. Let's be honest, many people in small towns in the rural south are caucasian, southern baptist and conservative.

I wonder how it would be for someone who's Christian but not Southern Baptist--would they "fit in" or have some of the same problems?

Wow, so this is why the FP forum is dead :(

Gentlemen, Gentlemen. (and Ladies, of course)

I was just pointing out that it costs less, generally, to live in a small city in middle-America then it does in Boston or LA and that your material quality of life will be a lot higher.

I didn't mean for this to devolve into a liberal versus conservative thread. Obviously not all small towns are conservative and cheap to live in. My own home town of Norwhich, Vermont is both extremely liberal and extremely expensive.

Come on, folks. If you all want to argue then I invite you to my usual stomping grounds, the Everyone Forum, where you can argue to your heart's content.

Gentlemen, Gentlemen. (and Ladies, of course)

I was just pointing out that it costs less, generally, to live in a small city in middle-America then it does in Boston or LA and that your material quality of life will be a lot higher.

I didn't mean for this to devolve into a liberal versus conservative thread. Obviously not all small towns are conservative and cheap to live in. My own home town of Norwhich, Vermont is both extremely liberal and extremely expensive.

Come on, folks. If you all want to argue then I invite you to my usual stomping grounds, the Everyone Forum, where you can argue to your heart's content.

I agree. Take it somewhere else.

ummm, so going back to the original question, a flyover state would be a non coastal state like in the midwest?

does anyone know how much more an fp would make in the midwest than the coasts? salary.com has a NY fp making more than a IA fp, for example... just asking.....

all denominations and religious parties can answer please... lol

man...this thread fizzled out right quick, huh? It was interesting until the fight broke out. But I'm from Shreveport, Louisiana myself, now living in Delaware, though. I have to agree that the small town (and medium sized, too) South is not ideal. I am white and I am Christian but I'm not a redneck, so, really, I never enjoyed it all that much and was glad when I got out. Delaware isn't much better, and the truth is, there are rednecks everywhere, even in California, which I found surprising.

That being said, I would prefer "flyover country" to the big city strictly for the financial advantages. You just get more bang for your buck.

ummm, so going back to the original question, a flyover state would be a non coastal state like in the midwest?

does anyone know how much more an fp would make in the midwest than the coasts? salary.com has a NY fp making more than a IA fp, for example... just asking.....

all denominations and religious parties can answer please... lol

I think you make about $80K to start right out of residency. When it comes to FP it's all about volume from what I have seen.

I think you make about $80K to start right out of residency. When it comes to FP it's all about volume from what I have seen.

Where at Cananda? There are PAs and Pharmacists making more than that.

Where at Cananda? There are PAs and Pharmacists making more than that.

Sounds low to me too.

He'd make double that if he had 2 PAs because we (for some idiotic reason) will work just as hard for half as much $$. I routinely bill $32-36k/month for my services but my salary is $75k/yr. I earn it. I'm not complaining but the docs make 2x that with production incentive. I don't get production because "we don't pay the midlevels that way" (FYI, the other midlevels--ick, hate that word--work at the college health center and see 6-12 patients a day, 9 months of the year).
Lisa PA-C
(applying to med school 2006)

OnMyWayThere

One of the great parts about family practice is there are so many options. If you read some of the previous threads you will see people talk at length about this issue, one option is to acquire the training for many different procedures. If a family physician does lots of procedures and has other doctors working under him he has the potential to make a very adequate income, probably not what your father was making. But it's not unreasonable for a family physician doing procedures to make 150,000-250,000. Then if he has 2 doctors working under him, he would probably pocket 30,000-60,000 dollars from each doctor.
Just my thoughts, as a 3rd year medical student, take it for what it's worth