So what do foot and ankle specialized orthopedic surgeons do that podiatric surgeons don't?

There has to be something . . . since it wouldn't be worth doing all that residency to have the same job as a podiatrist would it?

So what do foot and ankle specialized orthopedic surgeons do that podiatric surgeons don't?

There has to be something . . . since it wouldn't be worth doing all that residency to have the same job as a podiatrist would it?


aside from correcting podiatry surgeries gone wrong, a lot of foot and ankle orthopods do a fair ammount of general ortho and basic ortho trauma.

"So what do foot and ankle specialized orthopedic surgeons do that podiatric surgeons don't?"

Answer:
1. Indicated procedures in a skillful manner.
2. Revisions of what podiatrists screw up

If you notice you do not see MD after podiatrists name. You may see Dr, but you can study flowers and still have Dr. before your name.
Case in point, stay away from podiatrists.

For all the DO's same respest as MD goes for you folks to. I only use MD as a general term.

Well, sounds like the answer is... nothing. Not to say that I disagree with the above posters, though, about being careful who you go to for surgery.

I'm just curious...Do podiatrists know how to do complicated procedures like ankle joint replacements?

I'm just curious...Do podiatrists know how to do complicated procedures like ankle joint replacements?

The answer is 10000% no, and I sure hope they never try. They can mainly be found in nursing homes checking feet, not anyplace near the OR.

The answer is 10000% no, and I sure hope they never try. They can mainly be found in nursing homes checking feet, not anyplace near the OR.

I don't know why everyone is bagging on podiatrists here, including the above incorrect post.

Many/most podiatrists do simple foot and ankle surgery (in the OR). Anyone who says that podiatrists don't do surgery is either not in the U.S. or is talking out the anal sphincter. Podiatrists are relied on to take care of problems that, while often minor in medical nature, have a large influence on people's lives. Ask any PCP or general surgeon in a smaller town....who else wants to care for feet? All the diabetic problems? An orthopod? No...who are we trying to kid here.

Sure, podiatry school may be easier to get into, and some people probably go into the field to be called doctor. The majority are probably good hardworking folks (the podiatrist at my hospital is). A lot of MDs out there went into medicine to wear the white coat and be called Dr....(seems to be the same people who take offense to other people being called Dr.).

Bottom line, podiatrists have a limited but important role, like many health care providers. Calling them names is immature at best and ignorant in the least.

I don't know why everyone is bagging on podiatrists here, including the above incorrect post.

Many/most podiatrists do simple foot and ankle surgery (in the OR). Anyone who says that podiatrists don't do surgery is either not in the U.S. or is talking out the anal sphincter. Podiatrists are relied on to take care of problems that, while often minor in medical nature, have a large influence on people's lives. Ask any PCP or general surgeon in a smaller town....who else wants to care for feet? All the diabetic problems? An orthopod? No...who are we trying to kid here.

Sure, podiatry school may be easier to get into, and some people probably go into the field to be called doctor. The majority are probably good hardworking folks (the podiatrist at my hospital is). A lot of MDs out there went into medicine to wear the white coat and be called Dr....(seems to be the same people who take offense to other people being called Dr.).

Bottom line, podiatrists have a limited but important role, like many health care providers. Calling them names is immature at best and ignorant in the least.



I agree with you for sure. I was in a way busting ball.... To say that they are even on the same level as a othro is way off base. They do some "or" work, most of which is done in office these days to save money.

For the most part they are hard working, as most workers.

You are an egocentric, arrogant, and very sad person. I have had ankle surgery done by a Foot and Ankle Physician when I was in highschool (My father is a Cardiologist with connections and the best guy he knew for the job was a Podiatric Surgeon! DPM's that want to specialize in ortho surgery on the foot and ankle do a 4-5 yr residency after the 4 years of Podiatric Medical School and are as qualified to do "like proceedures" as the ortho surgeon.....The American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons is 99% DPM's ....lol With the move towards specialization in the past 20 yrs the value of having an MD/DO degree is diminishing. Alot of Oral Maxo-facial Surgeons don't have MD's (only DDS). My brother is doing his residency in Surgery then a hand fellowship and he has seen some pretty damn good Podiatric Surgeons and OMF's too.......Things are changing---I am getting my OD degree (to be a Eye Doctor, for arrogant folks like you----------a PHYSICIAN of the Eye..lol) Right now the Optometry profession is winning different battles to get laser surgery----it is only a matter of time....Opthamologists are very opposed--------it amuses me----because in 4 yrs when I am done I am going to do these procedures!!! with an OD degree!!! You need to wake up and smell the coffee...one of these days your attitude is going to get you in a heap of trouble and I am assuming that having an MD isn't going to save you from a physical conflict.......RESPECT other people WE are all equals! Listen to your momma! :laugh:

WE are all equals! Listen to your momma! :laugh:

Now don't get carried away, an optometrist is not in the same league as an opthamologist (the former confined to limited practice of one piece of anatomy, the latter full practice of the eyes, orbits, other medical conditions etc). While they often both work on the same anatomy, this does not mean that the specialists in the respective specialities have equal knowledge or ability.

If you want to talk about an attitude that will get someone in a heap of trouble, I suggest that it is the cavalier attitude that less training can equal equivalent skill and knowledge that is most likely to increase morbidity.

Even if podiatrists don't go to medical school, they are training clinically. Dentists are obviously clinically trained. Optometrists do refraction and stuff, but are *not* trained for surgery! They simply don't have the same knowledge of the human body to deal with pre-op and post-op medical evaluations. They won't have the same knowledge to consult with other physicials including ENTS (orbit problems?), neurosurgeons (injury to the eye involving CNS or peripheral nerves?), neurologists (neurological deficits related to vision?). Anesthesia? What about complications? So many possibilities, and optometry students do not do two years of clinical rotations followed by a residency. An opthalmology residency especially, is not easy to get into and is serious stuff.

So even if laws were passed to let ODs do eye surgery, that would not make ODs into physicians!

My original question was about the difference in scope between podiatrists and orthopods, but I never intended to question the OBVIOUS difference in level of qualification between any surgeon in any specialty and someone who never went to medical/dental school.

*Sigh* next chiropracters will want priveleges to fix discs, and school counselors will want to manage kids on antidepressants. :laugh:

i have witnessed some of the OR "training" that podiatrists recieve and i liken it to the blind leading the blind. all jokes aside, i have interacted with a load of podiatrists in training and i would not want them managing anything more than my toenails.

You are an egocentric, arrogant, and very sad person. I have had ankle surgery done by a Foot and Ankle Physician when I was in highschool (My father is a Cardiologist with connections and the best guy he knew for the job was a Podiatric Surgeon! DPM's that want to specialize in ortho surgery on the foot and ankle do a 4-5 yr residency after the 4 years of Podiatric Medical School and are as qualified to do "like proceedures" as the ortho surgeon.....The American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons is 99% DPM's ....lol With the move towards specialization in the past 20 yrs the value of having an MD/DO degree is diminishing. Alot of Oral Maxo-facial Surgeons don't have MD's (only DDS). My brother is doing his residency in Surgery then a hand fellowship and he has seen some pretty damn good Podiatric Surgeons and OMF's too.......Things are changing---I am getting my OD degree (to be a Eye Doctor, for arrogant folks like you----------a PHYSICIAN of the Eye..lol) Right now the Optometry profession is winning different battles to get laser surgery----it is only a matter of time....Opthamologists are very opposed--------it amuses me----because in 4 yrs when I am done I am going to do these procedures!!! with an OD degree!!! You need to wake up and smell the coffee...one of these days your attitude is going to get you in a heap of trouble and I am assuming that having an MD isn't going to save you from a physical conflict.......RESPECT other people WE are all equals! Listen to your momma! :laugh:




You are not a physician, and will never be in the eyes of anyone who is in the medical field. The mistake the public makes is that your profession gives the false pretense that you teat as a physician. OD?s can cannot teat 99.9% of eye disease, and can only treat post operatically. I am not bagging your career, we are all well needed.
A physician is only a MD and OD.

As far as your dad only knowing a podiatric to do your ankle procedure; that is pretty sad. I would like you to go to a major medical center (NYU, Duke, Harvard, and Columbia) and see what they say about Podiatric profession. I can tell you from the perspective of at least one of the above mentioned university affiliated medical centers, and the perception is not good, since that is where I practice.

As far as you doing procedures, my vet does procedures; a plumber does procedures; although they are not physicians. To go back to your analogy of smelling coffee, a coffee house worker does procedure, but they are not physicians.

Get a grip, and come to the realization you are not a medical doctor. If you need more clarification, check with your local board of health.


As far as my attitude, it will save me a matter of fact. It will keep me from making mistakes and hiring the wrong people for the job.

Best of luck to you, you will need it reading those eye charts with your head so far up your as?

Now don't get carried away, an optometrist is not in the same league as an opthamologist (the former confined to limited practice of one piece of anatomy, the latter full practice of the eyes, orbits, other medical conditions etc). While they often both work on the same anatomy, this does not mean that the specialists in the respective specialities have equal knowledge or ability.

If you want to talk about an attitude that will get someone in a heap of trouble, I suggest that it is the cavalier attitude that less training can equal equivalent skill and knowledge that is most likely to increase morbidity.


Well said

i have witnessed some of the OR "training" that podiatrists recieve and i liken it to the blind leading the blind. all jokes aside, i have interacted with a load of podiatrists in training and i would not want them managing anything more than my toenails.


I made ref. to toenails as well in mypost above.... Nursing homes is where they belong, not in the OR.

You are an egocentric, arrogant, and very sad person. I have had ankle surgery done by a Foot and Ankle Physician when I was in highschool (My father is a Cardiologist with connections and the best guy he knew for the job was a Podiatric Surgeon! ...Things are changing---I am getting my OD degree (to be a Eye Doctor, for arrogant folks like you----------a PHYSICIAN of the Eye..lol) Right now the Optometry profession is winning different battles to get laser surgery----it is only a matter of time....Opthamologists are very opposed--------it amuses me----because in 4 yrs when I am done I am going to do these procedures!!! with an OD degree!!! You need to wake up and smell the coffee...one of these days your attitude is going to get you in a heap of trouble and I am assuming that having an MD isn't going to save you from a physical conflict.......RESPECT other people WE are all equals! Listen to your momma! :laugh:



:thumbdown future eye doc, you may have problems becoming an "eye doc" when you can't spell "ophthalmologist" right. with your OD, you will be asking "is it clearer in 1 or 2?"
as an orthopedic surgeon, i do indeed need those podiatrists. they are a great dumping ground for crap that i have no interest in doing... diabetic feet, hammer toes, hallux valgus, etc.
your cardiologist dad with the connections really didn't hook you up.
you may want to stop listening to your mama if she continues to give you such advice.

Still noone has answered the OP's question. The answer by and large is this:

Ortho foot guys make 2-3 times more money than the DPM. DPM's can be members of the ACFAS because it is their organization...duh..!! They also only have to do 3 years post grad, not 4-5. And they are generally lost when it comes to managing any semi-sick patient who might not fit the olympic athlete profile. DPM's are not full scope doctors, and only full scope doctors will be operating on my family members. Imagine this scenario.

Anesthesiologist: Dr. DPM, the patient's BP is dropping and he's bleeding out the ET tube, do you think he forgot and actually took his nifedipine, his enalapril, and coumadin today pre-op? What do you want to do?

DPM: Well, my training did not test us heavily on the clotting cascade, and thus I am unaware of what labs to order to check for coagulopathy other than a PT/PTT. But even if they come back abnormal, I have no idea how to intervene. This is a typical scenario by and which I would guess that the anesthesiologist would have to save the DPM's ass and page the internist on call.

See, you can rest assured knowing that every Ortho doc at one time was tested on all aspects of medicine having passed 3 steps of the USMLE or COMLEX. Without that certainty, I would never feel comfortable. My thinking is let the DPM's take the USMLE like the DO's were finally allowed to do. The results would look very grim I can promise you, but it probably should be done once and for all to prove that these guys are no physicians. Honestly, should they someone pass the USMLE, then I would have no problem changing my viewpoint. But the odds of a DPM passing the USMLE is about as good as a PA passing it.

No offense, but this analagy is pretty silly. No orthopod would have a clue, or want to have any say in the management of this issue. The orthopod would take care of the foot, and the anesthesiologist would manage the other issues.

As for the original question, podiatrists handle minor foot procedures, toenails, bunions, hammertoes, clawtoes, diabetic feet, etc... Some podiatrists are more skilled and venture out into reconstruction, fusions, joint replacement, etc... Some rightly so, and some really screw things up by venturing outside their level of training. Orthopods specializing in foot and ankle, do the minor procedues mentioned above, but also manage major reconstructions. They will take patients with terrible foot deformities that have been non-ambulators for year adn give them a plantigrade pain-free foot to walk on.

Here we go again........My whole family is MD's The school I will be attending for Optometry has hospital rounds as part of the last two years of CLINICAL training.....I will admit though it is a limited scope (occular, etc.) The one thing you and many other MD's on here fail to realize is that podiatrists, chiropractors, and optometrists are limited scope primary care physicians---------check the legal verbage! I attended a 1 1/2 years of a Doctor of Chiropractic program before I switched over to optometry and you sound like an idiot with the closing comment about (fixing a disc) in your response. That program was a lot tougher than the optometry program that I will be attending. We had 2x as much anatomy (20 scheduled hours a week of dissection for over a year!) as my brother's MD program. I would venture to say that many MD's including yourself are so insecure about semantics (i.e the physician label.) In legal verbage in my state (Ohio) a chiropractor can choose the title of Chiropractic physcician, Chiropractor, and Doctor of chiropractic! My point is "on paper" all of these (Doctor of Optometry, Doctor of Podiatry, Doctor of Chiropractic) are all limited scope physicians in almost every states legal verbage! Whom am I to give credibility to? The AMA-------(yeah right) an organization that ferociously fought Dentistry for years, tried to kill chiropractic--lost to chiropractic in Wilks vs AMA 1987, and spent 25 years trying to prevent optometrists from using prescription drugs as a therapeutic modality? OR state law and the patient? DUH------that is a no brainer! Just the about the ENTIRE WORLD refers to an Optometrist as EYE DOCTORS. The funny thing is 90%+ of patients don't even know the difference between an opthamologist or optometrist...lol Most patients don't care if the name has OD, MD, DO or whatever next to it.......what they care about is," Doctor can you help me get better." My father is a Cardiologist who has been practicing for 30 yrs now-----an honest man, great doctor, and a humble human being. He refers to MD's, DO's, DC's, DDS's, OD's all as physicians of varying scope and reach. The bottom line is HUMILITY--------------go to the pharmacy and buy some. :D

I love it!!!!!!! (as for the mispspelling of opthalmologist----I had no time to type you jack....... and I was in a hurry.......) ok now to the endodork........(You probably couldn't win a hand to hand if your life depended on it!) Anyway, I don't want to be an MD! Actually (believe it or not) I got accepted to an MD program-----(I will readily agree it is the toughest program to get into without a doubt) a few years ago, never attended, (I am now 30 yrs old) but it took me longer to figure out what I wanted. As to sticking my head up my as......... I think that is not in my scope! LOL That would be your job with your scalpel....(as an MD rectums are in your scope)......I am just going to help my patients----be loved by them and live comforably :) As for you I would just love to see you at a bar telling an optometrist, chiropractor, or a podiatrist the garbage that comes out of your mouth and listen for 2 sounds---the second of which would be you hitting the ground....(Maybe they could careflight you to the Cleveland clinic or to Duke University Medical center) so you can have an ENT work on your face! HUMILITY HUMILITY you sanctamounious.....S...of @$#$%#$#! By the way I hope you have a good day..... :) God Bless.........Oh wait are you God? lol :meanie:

Here we go again........My whole family is MD's The school I will be attending for Optometry has hospital rounds as part of the last two years of CLINICAL training.....I will admit though it is a limited scope (occular, etc.) The one thing you and many other MD's on here fail to realize is that podiatrists, chiropractors, and optometrists are limited scope primary care physicians---------check the legal verbage! I attended a 1 1/2 years of a Doctor of Chiropractic program before I switched over to optometry and you sound like an idiot with the closing comment about (fixing a disc) in your response. That program was a lot tougher than the optometry program that I will be attending. We had 2x as much anatomy (20 scheduled hours a week of dissection for over a year!) as my brother's MD program. I would venture to say that many MD's including yourself are so insecure about semantics (i.e the physician label.) In legal verbage in my state (Ohio) a chiropractor can choose the title of Chiropractic physcician, Chiropractor, and Doctor of chiropractic! My point is "on paper" all of these (Doctor of Optometry, Doctor of Podiatry, Doctor of Chiropractic) are all limited scope physicians in almost every states legal verbage! Whom am I to give credibility to? The AMA-------(yeah right) an organization that ferociously fought Dentistry for years, tried to kill chiropractic--lost to chiropractic in Wilks vs AMA 1987, and spent 25 years trying to prevent optometrists from using prescription drugs as a therapeutic modality? OR state law and the patient? DUH------that is a no brainer! Just the about the ENTIRE WORLD refers to an Optometrist as EYE DOCTORS. The funny thing is 90%+ of patients don't even know the difference between an opthamologist or optometrist...lol Most patients don't care if the name has OD, MD, DO or whatever next to it.......what they care about is," Doctor can you help me get better." My father is a Cardiologist who has been practicing for 30 yrs now-----an honest man, great doctor, and a humble human being. He refers to MD's, DO's, DC's, DDS's, OD's all as physicians of varying scope and reach. The bottom line is HUMILITY--------------go to the pharmacy and buy some. :D


Maybe you can get some of your good HUMILITY RX in Canada.. With any luck it will come from India, and you will see who is a "real" physician when you need to go to the ER.


I'm not sure where you get your number regarding patients knowing the difference of a MD, DO, ect.. I am sure you would know if you went to the "doctors" for a Pantalar fusion and you were asked to read top line from left to right.

Good Luck, and keep your dreams high....

Nothing like a legit thread getting reduced to name-calling and chat room threats of violence. The bottom line is that DPMs will see less complicated foot and ankle problems than an ortho foot and ankle specialist and will make less money. Whether fair or not, DPMs have a reputation for being less competent surgeons. Probably some deserve it and some don't, so you have to find out who is good in your area if you refer. The same goes for any other speciality. The whole thing with 'Doctor' is quite overblown, all it basically says is that you've put 4 post grad years in and have acquired an area of expertise. Everybody's a doctor these days. The trap of having "Dr of something" after your name (MD/DO too) is that you can overstep your bounds and treat beyond your capacity. I think physicians have every right to question the training of other providers because we owe it to our patients to make sure they get the standard of care. However, to make things black and white and say no OD can do laser surgery or no DPM can do a good ankle reconstruction is being arrogant and territorial. Let's not belittle their role in heathcare either. They should be allowed pursue the training, but they also shouldn't get pissed if only the top 1-2% are good enough to get the job done. I don't know why anyone would want to look at feet all day either way :D , but I'm glad someone does.

: :thumbdown future eye doc, you may have problems becoming an "eye doc" when you can't spell "ophthalmologist" right. with your OD, you will be asking "is it clearer in 1 or 2?"
as an orthopedic surgeon, i do indeed need those podiatrists. they are a great dumping ground for crap that i have no interest in doing... diabetic feet, hammer toes, hallux valgus, etc.
your cardiologist dad with the connections really didn't hook you up.
you may want to stop listening to your mama if she continues to give you such advice.

HEY....I like your sense of humor....lol The Podiatric surgeon that I saw did a 4 yr residency thru the Ohio College of Podiatric Medicine after he spent four years there. He worked in the Cleveland clinic system and pretty damn good......He spent 12 yrs from undergraduate to finish and had a decade of experience.......I actually won spelling bees in elementary school and have a Masters degree.........so I can spell! I can't type very well and have probably a minute to respond each time I get on here! Hey my Mom is an MD too so she gives great advice! I want to spend four years plus maybe one extra year of internship and focus on one area of the body doing primary care eye medicine.....I have absolutely no interest in all the other "scut" work----in my opinion that family practice doctors do..(God Bless them though)........An Optometrist is a primary care eye doctor and no more......not in any way a medical doctor but a limited scope physician none the less. My brother is in his third year of residency and will attend a hand fellowship when he is finished------EVEN he agrees with me. I want to go to work in my private practice and hospital setting (I will specialize in occular diseases)----do my 40 hours a week and take home $100K and pursue my real life------wrestling, coaching football, and competing in powerlifting competitions. I want to start my professional life at 35 not 40 (which opthalmology would definitely lead me to.) If I had my choice right now and you could give me an OD or an MD I would take the OD because it suits me better and is much less headache for me. Having attended a year of Chiropractic school I worked with an ortho doc for a year and have a great deal of respect for them (except for the ones that hate chiropractors)---you don't want to open this pandora's box with me....Anyway we are all equals in our own rights.....ulimately though I will say the most valuable doctor is that primary care MD/DO because they treat the majority of people in the most general sense...... :thumbup:

Can we get a thread closure here, and maybe a couple bans for garnish?

Hey, I have to admit you have a good sense of humor.....very important trait! I am just a smart-ass Italian guy who loves to argue and will lobby like bulldog when I am out practicing. lol I have actually seen a "full scope" real physician in the ER and she did a decent job. I will pursue my dream and become a "limited scope" real physician of the eye (OD) and work in harmony with my surgical brothers "full scope" real physicians of the eye (OMD's). :D Remember the eyes are the gateway to the soul......

Good luck to you too :thumbup: ;)


Go Ohio State Buckeyes!

You are an egocentric, arrogant, and very sad person. I have had ankle surgery done by a Foot and Ankle Physician when I was in highschool (My father is a Cardiologist with connections and the best guy he knew for the job was a Podiatric Surgeon! DPM's that want to specialize in ortho surgery on the foot and ankle do a 4-5 yr residency after the 4 years of Podiatric Medical School and are as qualified to do "like proceedures" as the ortho surgeon.....The American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons is 99% DPM's ....lol With the move towards specialization in the past 20 yrs the value of having an MD/DO degree is diminishing. Alot of Oral Maxo-facial Surgeons don't have MD's (only DDS). My brother is doing his residency in Surgery then a hand fellowship and he has seen some pretty damn good Podiatric Surgeons and OMF's too.......Things are changing---I am getting my OD degree (to be a Eye Doctor, for arrogant folks like you----------a PHYSICIAN of the Eye..lol) Right now the Optometry profession is winning different battles to get laser surgery----it is only a matter of time....Opthamologists are very opposed--------it amuses me----because in 4 yrs when I am done I am going to do these procedures!!! with an OD degree!!! You need to wake up and smell the coffee...one of these days your attitude is going to get you in a heap of trouble and I am assuming that having an MD isn't going to save you from a physical conflict.......RESPECT other people WE are all equals! Listen to your momma! :laugh:

Hey FutureEYEcoc, Why don't you come over to the Ophthalmology forum with your crap meatball boy and get your a** handed to you...you wanna-be DOC...I dare you. There is a good discussion about the subject of scope of practice... (what a waste of life to go to optometry school, when having already been accepted to medical school..which I don't believe...no one could be that damn dumb. Who would what to be second class eye doctors? Maybe you should have listened to your mamma :eek:

Hey FutureEYEcoc, Why don't you come over to the Ophthalmology forum with your crap meatball boy and get your a** handed to you...you wanna-be DOC...I dare you. There is a good discussion about the subject of scope of practice... (what a waste of life to go to optometry school, when having already been accepted to medical school..which I don't believe...no one could be that damn dumb. Who would what to be second class eye doctors? Maybe you should have listened to your mamma :eek:


That is to funny.... "meatball boy" HAHAHA

Funny thing is, he threatened me and I am a girl who works 100+ hrs a week including beeper, and I would still beat his meatball as?.

I love it!!!!!!! (as for the mispspelling of opthalmologist----I had no time to type you jack....... and I was in a hurry.......) ok now to the endodork........(You probably couldn't win a hand to hand if your life depended on it!) Anyway, I don't want to be an MD! Actually (believe it or not) I got accepted to an MD program-----(I will readily agree it is the toughest program to get into without a doubt) a few years ago, never attended, (I am now 30 yrs old) but it took me longer to figure out what I wanted. As to sticking my head up my as......... I think that is not in my scope! LOL That would be your job with your scalpel....(as an MD rectums are in your scope)......I am just going to help my patients----be loved by them and live comforably :) As for you I would just love to see you at a bar telling an optometrist, chiropractor, or a podiatrist the garbage that comes out of your mouth and listen for 2 sounds---the second of which would be you hitting the ground....(Maybe they could careflight you to the Cleveland clinic or to Duke University Medical center) so you can have an ENT work on your face! HUMILITY HUMILITY you sanctamounious.....S...of @$#$%#$#! By the way I hope you have a good day..... :) God Bless.........Oh wait are you God? lol :meanie:




First off Salami man, I am a chick who will give you a good beating. The beating may not be physical like you would enjoy, buy mentally. I actually studied to go through medical school and to earn my MD, PhD, and go through residency.

So go back to your forum where you belong, this is intended for MD?s.

I actually won spelling bees in elementary school and have a Masters degree.........so I can spell!

Hey my Mom is an MD too so she gives great advice!

This dude's a 30-year-old 7th-grader. Get real.


I bet you know all about what else she gives...


1. You never got into medical school. Don't lie. You're 30 (and just starting OD school) because you lacked the intellectual prowess and academic accomplishments to even get entertained by medical schools. In any event, there is a do-not-admit-Neanderthal admission policy.


2. ODs are not physicians. Don't play. It's not polite to dumb down medicine, not to mention very dangerous. You ODs work in Costco and in eyeglass stores, because that's the only way to get patients (trapping them when they want new glasses with their > 1 year old prescription with your empty appointment book). I bet that free membership really helps, doesn't it?

3. Please report back to the ancillary staff forum, and stop permeating this thread with your anti-intellectual tomfoolery.

I love it!!!!!!! (as for the mispspelling of opthalmologist----I had no time to type you jack....... and I was in a hurry.......)

You spelled ophthalmologist wrong again
:thumbup:

As for you I would just love to see you at a bar telling an optometrist, chiropractor, or a podiatrist the garbage that comes out of your mouth and listen for 2 sounds---the second of which would be you hitting the ground....(Maybe they could careflight you to the Cleveland clinic or to Duke University Medical center) so you can have an ENT work on your face!

I'm a postbac student at harvard extension and I'm kind of confused by this statement. Hypothetically, if you were hit in the face at a bar why would an ENT doctor work on your face? I would think it would be a plastic surgeon or oral maxillofacial surgeon. Someone please clarify this for me.

JRJ

I'm a postbac student at harvard extension and I'm kind of confused by this statement. Hypothetically, if you were hit in the face at a bar why would an ENT doctor work on your face? I would think it would be a plastic surgeon or oral maxillofacial surgeon. Someone please clarify this for me.

JRJ


ENT, MaxFax, and Plastics would all do it... there is a significant amount of overlap between the three when it comes to certain procedures. Trauma being one.. Personally MaxFax and/or ENT would be my first choice if I got smacked in the face with a crowbar and my facial bones and sinuses and nerves were wrecked.. followed by plastics because ENT and MaxFax have more head/neck and cranial bone reconstruction training than plastics.. but if I had full thickness chemical or other burns to my head neck, I'd rather have plastics take care of me as they have way more training in this area... including full body soft tissue manipulation and cosmetic procedures. Now if the plastics surg did an extra craniomaxillofacial fellowship and had more experience in cranial reconstruction.. then I'd say go with the plastics guy.

Just my .02

Nice thread going on here. Very entertaining....

I'm a postbac student at harvard extension and I'm kind of confused by this statement. Hypothetically, if you were hit in the face at a bar why would an ENT doctor work on your face? I would think it would be a plastic surgeon or oral maxillofacial surgeon. Someone please clarify this for me.

JRJ

I'm not suprised you're confused, since most lay people would be. Hopefully, when you graduate medical school sometime within the next decade (or residency within two decades), it'll all become clearer...

If you're going to knock meatball man tacitly, then you would be prudent to be informed.

Yeah...post-bac at Harvard Extension School? I'm sure you dropped that in accidentially; nevertheless, if you ever get into medical school, no one's going to care (or even be remotely impressed) where you did a small part of undergrad, trust me...because everyone's impressive. Name dropping is a bad habit to start.

Isn't this a physician and student doctor forum?

Yeah...post-bac at Harvard Extension School? I'm sure you dropped that in accidentially; nevertheless, if you ever get into medical school, no one's going to care (or even be remotely impressed) where you did a small part of undergrad, trust me...because everyone's impressive. Name dropping is a bad habit to start.

Isn't this a physician and student doctor forum?

MS3NavyFS2B, thanks for the advice.

OzDDS, thank you for answer my question.

JRJ

Yeah...post-bac at Harvard Extension School? I'm sure you dropped that in accidentially; nevertheless, if you ever get into medical school, no one's going to care (or even be remotely impressed) where you did a small part of undergrad, trust me...because everyone's impressive. Name dropping is a bad habit to start.

Not to mention that ANYONE can take courses at Harvard Extension School. You simply register for courses. There is no admissions process.

I bet this person tells everyone that they're a student at Harvard.

Not to mention that ANYONE can take courses at Harvard Extension School. You simply register for courses. There is no admissions process.

I bet this person tells everyone that they're a student at Harvard.


Your right people can take undergrad classes, although grad school is a bit different. You can take up to 3 classes, and you must be admitted to earn masters degree. Just some inside knowledge...

Hey FutureEYEcoc, Why don't you come over to the Ophthalmology forum with your crap meatball boy and get your a** handed to you...you wanna-be DOC...I dare you. There is a good discussion about the subject of scope of practice... (what a waste of life to go to optometry school, when having already been accepted to medical school..which I don't believe...no one could be that damn dumb. Who would what to be second class eye doctors? Maybe you should have listened to your mamma :eek:


You crack me up! My whole family is MD's and you are way to arrogant. The point is, you piece of $%#%$#$#, when I got accepted to ONE school-----I mean ONE school---and had familial connections there---my 3.45 GPA and 10 MCAT score were OK but not spectacular. At the time had a medical serious medical condition that prevented me for at least one year from matriculating. Following that I had a job making $80k in sales (not much jack$ from a surgeon standpoint but healthy for a college grad nonetheless). The bottom line is you moron I chose NOT to go because I readily admit that I will NOT commit 8-9 years of my life to become an OMD--NO WAY. I really don't have any interest in doing full-scope medicine or sugery--not really unless it is profitable for me. I compete in powerlifiting competitively (2nd in the country in 1999) and coach wrestling (almost made the olympics after college :) )--I am an athlete and will NOT give it up for anything-------OD is the best way to keep my lifestyle and become a eye doctor. The bottom line is-----I want to do primary care......OD's provide 70% of this function in the US yearly. I like refraction and treating some eye disease (and leaving the more serious things up to the OMD's.) I have tons of respect for OMD's (as my cousin is one)-----------you jerk. So instead of critical of an entire noble profession--be critical of me-----THAT'S OK----because you sound like a jerk.....


Go Buckeyes! :)

You spelled ophthalmologist wrong again
:thumbup:
LOL

:) This dude's a 30-year-old 7th-grader. Get real.


I bet you know all about what else she gives...


1. You never got into medical school. Don't lie. You're 30 (and just starting OD school) because you lacked the intellectual prowess and academic accomplishments to even get entertained by medical schools. In any event, there is a do-not-admit-Neanderthal admission policy.


2. ODs are not physicians. Don't play. It's not polite to dumb down medicine, not to mention very dangerous. You ODs work in Costco and in eyeglass stores, because that's the only way to get patients (trapping them when they want new glasses with their > 1 year old prescription with your empty appointment book). I bet that free membership really helps, doesn't it?

3. Please report back to the ancillary staff forum, and stop permeating this thread with your anti-intellectual tomfoolery.

I got into an MD program you primate and CHOSE not to go----I couldn't at the time (Being in an out of the hospital for a year doesnt make medical school seem very appealing)------You just cant believe that a person would change thier mind and not attend. I don't have the patience to grind thru 8-9 years to become an OMD----I ADMIT IT! An actually the optometrist I see works at a hospital thank you very much. This is amusing though and I love a good fight! CHEERS

:)

I got into an MD program you primate and CHOSE not to go----I couldn't at the time (Being in an out of the hospital for a year doesnt make medical school seem very appealing)------You just cant believe that a person would change thier mind and not attend. I don't have the patience to grind thru 8-9 years to become an OMD----I ADMIT IT! An actually the optometrist I see works at a hospital thank you very much. This is amusing though and I love a good fight! CHEERS


SPELLING correction

And actually the optometrist................... :thumbup:

First off Salami man, I am a chick who will give you a good beating. The beating may not be physical like you would enjoy, buy mentally. I actually studied to go through medical school and to earn my MD, PhD, and go through residency.

So go back to your forum where you belong, this is intended for MD?s.


Are you good looking? Maybe we could get coffee sometime? :)

"chuckling" congradulations on the Phd...I have a Masters and will probably stop after my OD.........Cheers!

By the way what is your sign? :love:

That is to funny.... "meatball boy" HAHAHA

Funny thing is, he threatened me and I am a girl who works 100+ hrs a week including beeper, and I would still beat his meatball as?.


I am in love!!!!!!!!!!

I am in love!!!!!!!!!!


I have to say, you are a funny good sport. Also, I am married....

:)

I got into an MD program you primate and CHOSE not to go

Which program? Just curious.

Which program? Just curious.


University of Dream Land

I have to say, you are a funny good sport. Also, I am married....


Thank you.....I have to admit as well that you seem very intelligent and witty....I am sure you are a good doctor.......

University of Dream Land


Actually you are very perceptive.....Dream Land is close...because the school I got into is a lower rung Medical School (probably one of the five easiest in the country to get accepted too.) I applied at the right place and right time and repeated 8 classes in my Pre-Med sequence (biochemistry, Second Organic Chem, Microbiology, Anatomy and Physiology, Physics 2, etc... and added a Graduate level molecular genetics class with a research project about the HIV virus......I got 7 A's and one B (organic)--hey noone is perfect huh? Anywho, I kissed ass with faculty at the (unmentioned) school and my parents have connections there....These factors aided me combined with the fact that my brother was already attending!-----AND I achieved a double digit composit on the MCAT (10)---back then (10) was very competitive----now in 2004 it is only better than average. I got offered a seat at ONE school and turned down by 12! (that really sucked but my 8 W's on my transcript from undergrad and my masters program killed me in the eyes of every other school I applied for.......The fact is as well that I am a MINORITY------------------------I repeat------------------MINORITY----------------all of these factors got me accepted. If you are a minority and/or female your chances are much better--*FACT*. White males are definitely discriminated against....Shortly after I fell ill------Psychological---(depression) resulting from a medical condition for over a year and could not attend.......I did a lot of thinking and although my whole family is MD's--mother, father, and brother (surgeon)......the whole thing seemed too morbid to me.....My undergraduate and masters degree are in Health Promotion and Education.......with primary prevention being the key theme......Medicine at the time to me seemed too involved in secondary and tertiary intervention and not enough preventative medicine and health promotion. I was offered an 80,000/year job in the Health and Fitness Equipment Industry and HONESTLY got greedy and went for the money....(I regret that choice.) I have spent many years with my father, mother, brother, and cousin----observing them and know very well what the MD (or DO---they are complete equals and acually a DO has an advantage with training in Manipulative Medicine OMM--Osteopathic Medical Manipulation) is all about. I am 30 years old and "school" tired......I can give of myself for 5 years and that's it! I am an athlete and will not slow down in that regard....Optometry gives me the window to being a primary care eye doctor in the most efficient amount of time and a much less stressful lifestyle....I will work 40 hours a week, will never be on call--thank GOD and pull $100K and I would be content with that...It gives me more time to be with my future wife and kids, be involved with my religion (activities), and being a part-time athlete.
Do I regret not going to the MD program----for a year I had some regrets BUT after I spent time with a couple of eye doctors I found out how Optometry was such a wonderful fit. So to answer you and that other guy that didn't believe me.......I CHOSE not to go because I knew I would not commit to 8-9 years to become an OMD......let's face it--it is a lot more work and I have no interest in surgery (for myself)--although I will lobby in my state to get LASIK surgery for my counterparts. So just understand that getting into an MD program is very tough but not impossible.....a close friend of mine applied for 3 YEARS and finally got in.....Anybody who is determined and intelligent can do it.

Are you good looking? Maybe we could get coffee sometime? :)

"chuckling" congradulations on the Phd...I have a Masters and will probably stop after my OD.........Cheers!

By the way what is your sign? :love:

You spelled congratulations wrong.

Actually you are very perceptive.....Dream Land is close...because the school I got into is a lower rung Medical School (probably one of the five easiest in the country to get accepted too.) I applied at the right place and right time and repeated 8 classes in my Pre-Med sequence (biochemistry, Second Organic Chem, Microbiology, Anatomy and Physiology, Physics 2, etc... and added a Graduate level molecular genetics class with a research project about the HIV virus......I got 7 A's and one B (organic)--hey noone is perfect huh? Anywho, I kissed ass with faculty at the (unmentioned) school and my parents have connections there....These factors aided me combined with the fact that my brother was already attending!-----AND I achieved a double digit composit on the MCAT (10)---back then (10) was very competitive----now in 2004 it is only better than average. I got offered a seat at ONE school and turned down by 12! (that really sucked but my 8 W's on my transcript from undergrad and my masters program killed me in the eyes of every other school I applied for.......The fact is as well that I am a MINORITY------------------------I repeat------------------MINORITY----------------all of these factors got me accepted. If you are a minority and/or female your chances are much better--*FACT*. White males are definitely discriminated against....Shortly after I fell ill------Psychological---(depression) resulting from a medical condition for over a year and could not attend.......I did a lot of thinking and although my whole family is MD's--mother, father, and brother (surgeon)......the whole thing seemed too morbid to me.....My undergraduate and masters degree are in Health Promotion and Education.......with primary prevention being the key theme......Medicine at the time to me seemed too involved in secondary and tertiary intervention and not enough preventative medicine and health promotion. I was offered an 80,000/year job in the Health and Fitness Equipment Industry and HONESTLY got greedy and went for the money....(I regret that choice.) I have spent many years with my father, mother, brother, and cousin----observing them and know very well what the MD (or DO---they are complete equals and acually a DO has an advantage with training in Manipulative Medicine OMM--Osteopathic Medical Manipulation) is all about. I am 30 years old and "school" tired......I can give of myself for 5 years and that's it! I am an athlete and will not slow down in that regard....Optometry gives me the window to being a primary care eye doctor in the most efficient amount of time and a much less stressful lifestyle....I will work 40 hours a week, will never be on call--thank GOD and pull $100K and I would be content with that...It gives me more time to be with my future wife and kids, be involved with my religion (activities), and being a part-time athlete.
Do I regret not going to the MD program----for a year I had some regrets BUT after I spent time with a couple of eye doctors I found out how Optometry was such a wonderful fit. So to answer you and that other guy that didn't believe me.......I CHOSE not to go because I knew I would not commit to 8-9 years to become an OMD......let's face it--it is a lot more work and I have no interest in surgery (for myself)--although I will lobby in my state to get LASIK surgery for my counterparts. So just understand that getting into an MD program is very tough but not impossible.....a close friend of mine applied for 3 YEARS and finally got in.....Anybody who is determined and intelligent can do it.

1. You spelled no one wrong (it's two words)--I'm not sure about it in ebonics.

2. Inferiorly-qualified minorities have a much easier time getting accepted to medical school than do similarly inferiorly-qualified whites and Asians, I agree. In addition, marginally-qualified minorites have a much easier time getting accepted than highly-qualified white and Asians--the reason of which is not obscure: it's that highly qualified minorities are few and far between, and there are quotas to be filled, so schools settle for marginally-qualified minorities in place of highly-qualified whites and Asians. (And, actually NOT anyone can get accepted to an allopathic US med school...see the stats, only 1/3 EVER get admitted--thus, PAs, NPs, CRNAs, etc.) I know you're going to call me a racist and play on victimology, but I'm actually only citing sociological facts, without bias one way nor the other. The truth hurts whites and Asians much more than it'll ever hurt blacks, until--of course--John McWhorter of Berkely comes into the public eye to a greater degree (no pun intended).

3. DOs are equals to MDs only in the most strict academic sense. There is DEFINITELY no advantage to being a DO worldwide or in the US. Most DOs are DOs because it's the secret backdoor into doctoring under the pretense of a different philosophy on the practice of medicine (look at the admission stats). This is a thread in and of itself. Let's play a game: name that famous osteopath.

4. 100,000K is peanuts, but I doubt it's that high after the Costco fees and insurance.

4. 100,000K is peanuts, but I doubt it's that high after the Costco fees and insurance.

On the other hand, you're usually like 25 feet from the hotdog stand.

On the other hand, you're usually like 25 feet from the hotdog stand.

25 ft??? He's selling the hotdogs!

1. You spelled no one wrong (it's two words)--I'm not sure about it in ebonics.

2. Inferiorly-qualified minorities have a much easier time getting accepted to medical school than do similarly inferiorly-qualified whites and Asians, I agree. In addition, maginally-qualified minorites have a much easier time getting accepted than highly-qualified white and Asians--the reason of which is not obscure: it's that highly qualified minorities are few and far between, and there are quotas to be filled, so schools settle for marginally-qualified minorities in place of highly-qualified whites and Asians. (And, actually NOT anyone can get accepted to an allopathic US med school...see the stats, only 1/3 EVER get admitted--thus, PAs, NPs, CRNAs, etc.) I know you're going to call me a racist and play on victimology, but I'm actually only citing sociological facts, without bias one way nor the other. The truth hurts whites and Asians much more than it'll ever hurt blacks, until--of course--John McWhorter of Berkely comes into the public eye to a greater degree (no pun intended).

3. DOs are equals to MDs only in the most strict academic sense. There is DEFINITELY no advantage to being a DO worldwide or in the US. Most DOs are DOs because it's the secret backdoor into doctoring under the pretense of a different philosophy on the practice of medicine (look at the admission stats). This is a thread in and of itself. Let's play a game: name that famous osteopath.

4. 100,000K is peanuts, but I doubt it's that high after the Costco fees and insurance.



Hey Buddy...........don't knock Costco it is a fine retail establishment! :) Actually I will be working in a surgery center with OMD's but that was a good one!

25 ft??? He's selling the hotdogs!

Hey---don't make fun of hot dogs----they are great at a football game!

;)

Hey Buddy...........don't knock Costco it is a fine retail establishment! :) Actually I will be working in a surgery center with OMD's but that was a good one!


I do have a question for you---a serious one. Do you find that the minority counterparts of yours are less effective and of lower quality----on the average---based your experience?

I do have a question for you---a serious one. Do you find that the minority counterparts of yours are less effective and of lower quality----on the average---based your experience?

I would rather not open up that can-o-worms. Let's just say that--more and more--privately-funded medical school scholarships are being recinded by the donors because of schools admitting too many inferiorly-qualified minority students.

The way many donors (usually white) feel is that, if this continues, there will be only a few spots in the upcoming years for white males.

In fact, I knew a black chick at my undergrad that was in some minority-in-medicine program who got in the TEENS on the MCAT (17) and was admitted to a school from which I was not even granted an interview via that program.

There's a solid arguement. If people want to be treated as equals, get rid of the freakin' double-standards, and judge ALL-COMERs by the same standards!

The schools will say that the minorites go back and serve their communities...but that's hog-wash, since the most even remotely intellectually-inclined individuals move as far away from the underserved areas as they can (look up the stats).

They'll also talk about affirmative action and so on...but name that minority who knew a slave. It's interesting that Asians came to this country a hundred years or more after blacks, but the Asians are now AHEAD of whites in terms of socioeconomic status, whereas the blacks are consistently at the lowest on most socioecomonic parameters. Are they vicitims?

The final point I'll leave up to you. Ask your attendings behind closed doors how they trust minority attendings for anything...then you'll really have your answer.

PS:
Some may take offence to these truths. Please don't. It is NOT meant to hurt anyone. It's just the way things are currently. It's quite objective, not subjective. Instead of bashing me, try to get rid of these silly double-standards, because the faster it's done, the better.

I would rather not open up that can-o-worms. Let's just say that--more and more--privately-funded medical school scholarships are being recinded by the donors because of schools admitting too many inferiorly-qualified minority students.

The way many donors (usually white) feel is that, if this continues, there will be only a few spots in the upcoming years for white males.

In fact, I knew a black chick at my undergrad that was in some minority-in-medicine program who got in the TEENS on the MCAT (17) and was admitted to a school from which I was not even granted an interview via that program.

There's a solid arguement. If people want to be treated as equals, get rid of the freakin' double-standards, and judge ALL-COMERs by the same standards!

The schools will say that the minorites go back and serve their communities...but that's hog-wash, since the most even remotely intellectually-inclined individuals move as far away from the underserved areas as they can (look up the stats).

They'll also talk about affirmative action and so on...but name that minority who knew a slave. It's interesting that Asians came to this country a hundred years or more after blacks, but the Asians are now AHEAD of whites in terms of socioeconomic status, whereas the blacks are consistently at the lowest on most socioecomonic parameters. Are they vicitims?

The final point I'll leave up to you. Ask your attendings behind closed doors how they trust minority attendings for anything...then you'll really have your answer.

PS:
Some may take offence to these truths. Please don't. It is NOT meant to hurt anyone. It's just the way things are currently. It's quite objective, not subjective. Instead of bashing me, try to get rid of these silly double-standards, because the faster it's done, the better.


Your point is very well taken......Thank you for the response... :thumbup:

I would rather not open up that can-o-worms. Let's just say that--more and more--privately-funded medical school scholarships are being recinded by the donors because of schools admitting too many inferiorly-qualified minority students.


misspelled rescinded................... sorry, couldn't resist.

Looks like I may become an internist after all.



Carpe

Easy boys.

Navy,

Your comments reflect an ideology that most of us minorities thought was relatively dead decades ago. You simply have no idea about what it is like to grow up as a minority. The hurdles are monumental. MCAT does not mean a damn thing in terms of minority future success as a physician. I had a 23M MCAT score, but my USMLE and COMLEX scores were very good....232/94, 715/99. Your statments glare of bigitry and I can promise you that your flight surgeon future will not be successful if you maintain that attitude. If you thought being around minorities was bad in civilian world, just wait until you get in the Navy. The Navy is flooded with Philipinos, Hispanics, African Americans, and tons of minority physicians. I suggest you put yourself out of your misery now and pay back your scholarship, and move to rural Idaho where you can get a piece of high land near Ruby Ridge!!


Being a minority as well I still believe that Navy is just telling it as he sees it. I personally think standardized tests are financial extortion and worthless as a diagnostic to predict the future competance of doctors whether it is the MCAT, DAT, OAT, GRE (science) etc.......I just took the OAT and got a 350 (average is around 320) and felt like the whole time it was a "load of crap" just like when I took the MCAT and did well on it (30). The ability to be a critical thinker, diagnose, solve problems (patient related), possess "bedside manner"---I know it is an overused term, and be and effective communicator can never be deduced from a 2-dimensional waste of pencil lead that a standardized test is. But you here the comments about how there are direct correlations with good MCAT scores and successful medical students..... :sleep: I bet if they eliminated standardized tests as a requirement for admission to any of these professional programs previously mentioned...the rule of natural selection would still apply and only the ones who have the self-efficacy and abilty would graduate from medical school, optometry school, dental school and so on. You still have GPA, extra-curriculars, interviews and so on....to give them a measuring stick. There are a lot of doctors out there who have absolutely no communication skills whatsoever and being a person who did marketing and sales for years I must say that it is ridiculous that people like that end up as physicians! lol Anyway I must return from my tangent......I agree with Navy but respect your opinion too.....My parents where immigrant doctors here in the early 70's and went thru a lot of crap!

Being a minority as well I still believe that Navy is just telling it as he sees it. I personally think standardized tests are financial extortion and worthless as a diagnostic to predict the future competance of doctors whether it is the MCAT, DAT, OAT, GRE (science) etc.......I just took the OAT and got a 350 (average is around 320) and felt like the whole time it was a "load of crap" just like when I took the MCAT and did well on it (30). The ability to be a critical thinker, diagnose, solve problems (patient related), possess "bedside manner"---I know it is an overused term, and be and effective communicator can never be deduced from a 2-dimensional waste of pencil lead that a standardized test is. But you here the comments about how there are direct correlations with good MCAT scores and successful medical students..... :sleep: I bet if they eliminated standardized tests as a requiremant for admission to any of these professional programs previously mentioned...the rule of natural selection would still apply and only the ones who have the self-efficacy and abilty would graduate from medical school, optometry school, dental school and so on. You still have GPA, extra-curriculars, interviews and so on....to give them a measuring stick. There are a lot of doctors out there who have absolutely no communication skills whatsoever and being a person who did marketing and sales for years I must say that it is ridiculous that people like that end up as physicians! lol Anyway I must return from my tangent......I agree with Navy but respect your opinion too.....My parents where immigrant doctors here in the early 70's and went thru a lot of crap!


By the way....for all the Michigan fans out there

Ohio State 37
Michigan 21

:laugh:

Go Buckeyes......

From reading all of the posts and replys in this forum, I would have to agree with most of the sentiments stated. However, I feel as though the most important piece of info left out of the discussion is the patient's well being.

Where is the talk about taking the patients welfare into consideration and determining what is the BEST way to care for any sick individual? Whether the referral may to an MD, DO, DDS, DPM, DVM, OD, DC, PT, OT, etc. ... does it really matter what the letters are behind their name? The previous statement is made with the understanding that those treating patients are well within their scope of practice (limited or not), and are TRAINED to provide the care the patients need.

No matter what field of medicine or specialty we look into, there will always be those bad apples in the bunch and to sterotype one class as being subpar is in the words of dr dre, "immature at best and ignorant at least".

As for ortho vs podiatrists ... I agree with the fact that orthos fix pod mistakes. And the same goes in reverse. Podiatrists fix ortho mistakes as well. Rash generalizations that are one-sided show arrogance and ignorance. We are all part of a team whose main concern is the "patient".. Fighting over semantics is a waste of time and I'd rather spend my time learning about how better to treat my patient's illness.

From reading all of the posts and replys in this forum, I would have to agree with most of the sentiments stated. However, I feel as though the most important piece of info left out of the discussion is the patient's well being.

Where is the talk about taking the patients welfare into consideration and determining what is the BEST way to care for any sick individual? Whether the referral may to an MD, DO, DDS, DPM, DVM, OD, DC, PT, OT, etc. ... does it really matter what the letters are behind their name? The previous statement is made with the understanding that those treating patients are well within their scope of practice (limited or not), and are TRAINED to provide the care the patients need.

No matter what field of medicine or specialty we look into, there will always be those bad apples in the bunch and to sterotype one class as being subpar is in the words of dr dre, "immature at best and ignorant at least".

As for ortho vs podiatrists ... I agree with the fact that orthos fix pod mistakes. And the same goes in reverse. Podiatrists fix ortho mistakes as well. Rash generalizations that are one-sided show arrogance and ignorance. We are all part of a team whose main concern is the "patient".. Fighting over semantics is a waste of time and I'd rather spend my time learning about how better to treat my patient's illness.
:thumbup: Your post is the best I have ever read on here......I agree.

From reading all of the posts and replys in this forum, I would have to agree with most of the sentiments stated. However, I feel as though the most important piece of info left out of the discussion is the patient's well being.

Where is the talk about taking the patients welfare into consideration and determining what is the BEST way to care for any sick individual? Whether the referral may to an MD, DO, DDS, DPM, DVM, OD, DC, PT, OT, etc. ... does it really matter what the letters are behind their name? The previous statement is made with the understanding that those treating patients are well within their scope of practice (limited or not), and are TRAINED to provide the care the patients need. blah blah blah

I think it matters if DVM is "behind their name." You see, Doctors of Veterinary Medicine really shouldn't be practicing human medicine. I'm not sure I would refer Bigfoot or a werewolf to a DVM.

blah blah blah

I think it matters if DVM is "behind their name." You see, Doctors of Veterinary Medicine really shouldn't be practicing human medicine. I'm not sure I would refer Bigfoot or a werewolf to a DVM.

All you can say is blah blah blah? You read the post and took it literally that a referral for a human being would be sent to a DVM? Can you not infer that those degrees were included for completeness sake? Have you no concern for your patients and their wellbeing? Who says DVM's practice human medicine? For the safety sake of your patients I hope they stay clear away from you since you seem to show such a lack of respect for the person as a human being. Blah blah blah ...

The original question if I recall was what is the difference b/t ortho foot and ankle surgeons and operative podiatrists. The question has degenerated into name calling of "I'm an MD and you're not." In my experience the main difference b/t MD's and all other ancillary health professions (optometrists, chiropractors, podiatrists etc..) is that there is a consistency and uniformity to the training which none of the other fields can assure patients of. If you are seeing a board certified Orthopaedic Surgeon you can be assured that they have been through rigorous training and are capable of making decisions about your care. That said, sometimes the surgeon may say,"you need to see this operative podiatrist I know, he is very good." The fact is you can feel assured with that recommendation that the foot doc is capable (and yes, I have seen an operative podiatrist do a total ankle very well - after being fellowship trained). Unfortunately, there is little uniformity to training in non MD fields. You will see some chiropractors suggesting they can cure allergies and read extremity MRI's. There is little evidence to support the interventions of many of these people. It boils down to doing what is billable. I would also suggest that Eyedoc get the chip off of his/her shoulder though...you are clearly very sensitive about not getting an MD.

All you can say is blah blah blah? You read the post and took it literally that a referral for a human being would be sent to a DVM? Can you not infer that those degrees were included for completeness sake? Have you no concern for your patients and their wellbeing? Who says DVM's practice human medicine? For the safety sake of your patients I hope they stay clear away from you since you seem to show such a lack of respect for the person as a human being. Blah blah blah ...

Blah Blah Blah . . .

I made ref. to toenails as well in mypost above.... Nursing homes is where they belong, not in the OR.

Hey,

I think you are a self centered freak that needs a major attitude change. :thumbdown

How are you expected to be a great physicain (asset to society) when you feel the need to bash others that are more humble than you. I for one, want to become a DPM to specialize in foot & ankle surgery. It would take you at least two more years of training to know as much as a DPM with a PM&S-36 residency. As you must not understand, Podiatry has recently been more focused on becoming a surgical subspecialty. Hence, all of the residencies are either PM&S-24 or PM&S-36.

As for undergraduate study, majority of entering students have a Biology or Chemistry B.S. and have taken the MCAT. (I believe this is more than studying flowers!) Also, there is a lot of research going on in Podiatry. Have you noticed that this last year Scholl College of Podiatric Medicine at Rosalind Franklin University has won a major award in their studies from their famous center for ambulatory research lab with diabetic patients. One of the top researchers in diabetic feet, Dr. Armstrong DPM/PhD, has published over 30 articles many in JAMA.

I refuse to carry your negativity about the field of Podiatric Medicine on my back. I am a competitive student with a 3.8GPA, many scholar awards, worked 5 years in a "Nursing Home" and 2 years as a Medical Technologist at the Mayo Clinic. So, I am very aware of the different types of doctors that MD/DO's make up. So, will I every think of myself lower than you (an MD) NEVER!! :laugh:

Speaking of "Nursing Homes", have you ever worked/volunteered in one? Would you ever be so humble to trim someones nails? I have. Also, what medical institute are you affiliated with?

So, my advice to you is to first educating yourself about a professional field before bashing it.

There is a difference between ortho and pods. Pods now see more foot procedures in their residency than an ortho will see in their entire career. In general, orthos NO LONGER TOUCH the foot. The majority of foot surgery in the US is now performed by podiatrists (AMA). Orthos are great with other parts of the body but denying that their needs to be a specialty for the foot alone is like saying that any orthopod can take a hack at the hand. This mentality needs to change because more and more, pods are correcting ortho surgery gone wrong (and it only hurts the patients). Are there bad, poorly trained podiatrists out there? YES! Are poorly trained orthopods out there? YES! Don't get me wrong, I love ortho, and ortho loves podiatry (as ortho groups are a major employer). However, everybody needs to know there place. Podiatrists are the foot and ankle specialist.

As podiatrists are trained, work with, and are employed by orthopods, I can tell you that the opinions of some of these supposed "doctors" are not the opinions of the profession in general.

If you are seeing a board certified Orthopaedic Surgeon you can be assured that they have been through rigorous training and are capable of making decisions about your care.

However, your statements are also applicable to DPMs. If you are seeing a DPM who is a fellow of the American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons (board certified by the ABPS), than you can rest assured that the foot and ankle surgeon has completed rigorous training and passed oral and written examinations, including submission of cases for review.

Currently the ABPS is the only certification for foot and ankle surgeons. Orthos have no board for foot and ankle. If you read some opinions by Michael Pinzur, MD (foot and ankle ortho/ Loyola) in Foot and Ankle International. You'll see how general ortho training in the foot and ankle is lacking. You can complete residency with 10 foot cases. We need 350.

Some DPMs do routine care in nursing homes, and others perform complex reconstructions (as the one I performed in my avatar).

Unfortunately turf battles are a part of medicine, and ignorance fuels most of them.

An article published in the July 2003 issue of "Foot and Ankle International," the clinical journal of the American Orthopedic Foot and Ankle Society, reveals that foot and ankle residency training among orthopaedic residents is 'vague' and does not 'require experience or proficiency in this discipline.'"

"Lead author of the article, Michael S. Pinzur, MD, of the Department of Orthopaedic Surgery and Rehabilitation at Loyola University Medical Center, utilized a survey form sent to the chairs of 148 accredited residency programs in orthopedic surgery in the United States. The response rate was 100%."

"Results showed that 80 programs (54.1 percent) had just one faculty member, while 21 programs (14.2 percent) had no faculty member with a dedicated interest in foot and ankle orthopedics. Fifteen programs (10.1%) did not have a committed faculty member, nor did their residents have a clinical rotation dedicated to foot and ankle care."

"Ninety-six percent of the programs had a dedicated clinical foot and ankle experience, while 33 assigned their residents to clinical foot and ankle rotations at multiple times during their training. Overall, the total duration of their foot and ankle clinical training ranged from as little as 6 weeks, to as much as 24 weeks, out of a possible 260 weeks of residency training."

"The authors state the survery results show the disparity of commitment to foot and ankle orthopaedics in American graduate medical education in orthopaedic surgery. The article concludes by stating, 'While most programs are in compliance with the guidlines published by the Accreditation Council for Graduate medical Education, many programs offer virtually no exposure to this important discipline.'"

"In stark contrast is the training of podiatrists," said APMA President LLoyd S. Smith, DPM. 'Our students currently receive six to seven years of formalized training in the foot, ankle and related structures during their educational experiences. Their initial years are of a general nature quite similar to medical school students. Many of those classes are now held jointly at health science centers where the medical and podiatry students are integrated into the same classrooms.'"

"During the second and third years, the future podiatrists begin to focus on the lower extremity issues. Ultimately the fourth year in school and the subsequent years as a resident allow the podiatrist to receive vastly more training and experience in lower extremity pathology than any other health care professional in the United States."

An orthopod is a highly trained expert, who has sacrificed a great deal of his or her time to their craft. They are usually the best of the best in their respective medical school classes.
Podiatrist are also highly trained specialist, with their focus being mainly on the lower extremity. Some Podiatrist do complicated foot and ankle surgery. Some podiatrist do more pallative work such as c&c.
I think we podiatrist are able to offer more nonsurgical options than your average foot and ankle orthopod due to the nature of our training, but there are exception to that rule.
I think when it comes down to it, its not the degree of the practioner one need to take soley into consideration, but the individual experience of that doctor.( I have to say though, it kills me when someone comes to me for a foot or ankle problem and they tell me they went to a chiropractor first, but thats another topic)
Personally, I know a orthopod who is an absolute magnificent foot and ankle guy. I also know a foot and ankle ortho who is a hack. Same holds true for Podiatry( we all know someone in our class who we wouldnt let trim our toenails let alone do surgery on us).
I am in the process of looking for a good pediatrican, but just because there may be a MD behind someones name doesnt make me feel comfortable with just anybody. Its all about the individual. My 1.5 cents.