Hi fellow non-trads,

I am in need of some serious advice as to what to do about my present dilemma. The dilemma is whether or not to continue on my path to applying to med school. Let me start with a brief history: I am a 27-year old married female former artist, who was fed up with my prior career and as a 25-year-old decided to pursue medicine. I did a post-bacc program (informal) at a 4-year university, did reasonably well (3.7) and took the August MCAT, in which I got a 25 (didn't have much time to study, felt I could do better.)

After the August MCAT, I got a job working full-time at a hospital as a clinical research assistant. My job is okay, but it has definitely shown me the worst sides of medicine, and that, combined with the fact that my husband is in medicine and I see the worst parts of it through him as well, are starting to sway me towards just stopping the whole process right now. Plus, I started actually applying for fall '05 and I haven't even gotten an interview by now, and I'm studying for the April MCAT again, which isn't helping, because I'm fed up with the whole process. I'm really wrestling with whether or not to continue on this med school path, and I wondered if anyone has any input.

While I feel that medicine is the career best suited for my personality and interests, there are many major cons as I see it. In order of importance for me, these cons are: fear of contracting a blood borne illness, malpractice, the 8 years of training, 8 years of hard-core studying, loss of income potential during med school and residency (for the most part), the horrible way med students and residents are treated by attendings, the inability to be able to pursue outside interests with much vigor, and the fact that I'm already old and worry about the impact that being a doctor will have on my future kids.

On the other hand, I have searched and searched for a profession or career that would "complete me" and have come up empty-handed. I feel very at home in the hospital, love being around sick people, love working in the operating room, and am very inspired by the human body and healing others.

I did struggle with my post-bacc courses, and getting my 3.7 was at times difficult, and I also worry how I'll be able to handle 5 basic science med school courses at once. I also struggle with whether I want to be a "normal" person with a 9 to 5 job who goes home and doesn't have to study and can pursue outside interests, or whether I want to have a career that's not just a career but an identity.

Does anyone have any advice or insight as I struggle with these questions? Do any non-trads who are currently in med school regret their decision? If so, why?

Thanks so much,

Bloat

Have you thought about pursuing an RN degree? As a nurse, you would be in the hospital, around patients, etc..., but would not require nearly the amount of time in training. The enormous negative is then the compensation, but you no longer have worries over malpractice or insurance reimbursements. What you will not avoid is the potential exposure to disease, but if you desire to be in a hospital, there is no way around that. As far as life with a child, you would only need to find part time employment during the years you wish to raise them (as a nurse in the office where I work does), but that assumes you are supported by an outside income (husband or family). Good luck, hope this helps!

Thanks for the nursing suggestion but I really want a job where I'm in the position to be the decision-maker. Plus, I really don't want to go back to school if medicine is not what I end up pursuing. I'm thinking small-business owner might be another option.

Has anyone faced similar questionings? What has helped make the decision? Just a FYI: my husband is very supportive of medicine for me, but the rest of my family is 100% unsupportive--they want me to be a housewife. But they were 100% unsupportive from day 1 of my post-bacc, and I've chosen to ignore them.

Thanks,

BB

What about pharmacy? One of my good friends is a pharmacist and it is a great job for anyone who wants regular hours and a family, while still having contact with patients, earning a good salary, and being in the health-care field. No blood-borne pathogens to worry about. You don't have to work at Walgreen's, either; there are hospital pharmacists, formulary pharmacists who make their own pills, and even some research pharmacists. I thought about going into pharmacy for a while but decided against it because the medical degree is more flexible and I want to do clinical research. I still think that the pharmacy curriculum sounds more interesting though. :laugh:

Just surfing through & noticed your post...thought I would give you my two cents worth.

Have you looked into the Physician Assistant profession? You would be able to practice medicine in much less time than it would take to complete medical school & residency. You would, of course, be practicing medicine under the supervision of a physician or physicians depending on where you work. PAs are working in almost every area of medicine & are given as much autonomy as their supervising physician(s) feels comfortable giving them.
You mentioned needing to be the boss...as a PA you would never be the head honcho but you would be making many decisions for your patients on a daily basis.

If you want more info on the profession check out the American Academy of Physician Assistants website at www.aapa.org

Good luck in your quest,
M :)

Hi fellow non-trads,

(SNIP to make the post a little shorter.)

I did struggle with my post-bacc courses, and getting my 3.7 was at times difficult, and I also worry how I'll be able to handle 5 basic science med school courses at once. I also struggle with whether I want to be a "normal" person with a 9 to 5 job who goes home and doesn't have to study and can pursue outside interests, or whether I want to have a career that's not just a career but an identity.

Does anyone have any advice or insight as I struggle with these questions? Do any non-trads who are currently in med school regret their decision? If so, why?

Thanks so much,

Bloat

Hi there,
One of the most important aspects of medical school and medicine is that it gives you hundreds of options. You will have plenty of time to decide what kind of career you want and how you will pursue it. You already know something about the research end and possibly the clinical end in terms of what your husband does but there are tons of other possibilities.

Heathcare legislation: There are plenty of opportunities for physicians here both to help write healthcare legislation and provide input into the reforms that are going to be needed for practice in today's world.

Preventive medicine: Here is 9-5 medicine if ever there was such a thing. Not only can you impact the future of your patients, you can have a role in keeping them healthy for long periods of time. No emergencies and no long hours.

Administration: You can be the administrative partner in a large physician practice. You may have to obtain an MBA along with your MD/DO but lots of physicians are working toward executive MBAs which turn out to be pretty useful. Again, if you are in a large enough group, your administrative talents will be used in exchange for you not having to do the night call, emergency call etc.

Lifestyle specialties: Optho and derm (very competitive but very lucrative) are two specialties that have very comfortable hours and great income properties. Again, they are options after medical school with little after-hours work.

Medical school: Is not difficult other than ramping your study skills to tackle and assimulate large amounts of material in a fairly short period of time. You get lots of shots at doing this: first in medical courses, second in review for your board exams, third in review for your in-training exams and regularly as a practicing physician. Once you kind of "make peace" with how you do first and second year, medical school is very doable and is quite interesting. The other thing is that I found almost every medical class facinating in some way. There were lots of "Aha" moments for me. Unlike undergraduate and some graduate programs, you are not forced to take courses just for a requirement but because they have practical application to your practice. It's all about finding a balance and making peace with the fact that you can never know it all but the quest for knowledge is pretty interesting.

Medical practice: I am currently a resident physician but I love every aspect of what I do. My days are never routine and I have an impact in my patient's lives. Medicine is NOT my identity but my profession and I thorougly enjoy it. When I am outside the hospital, I am not Dr. but just me. I do not expect that medicine is going to define my life but enrich my life.

Only you can decide what you need to have for happiness but if I had to life life over again a thousand times, I would choose the practice of medicine for its challenges and rewards. It isn't for everyone but it has great options and offers great careers.

Good luck with your choices!
njbmd

I completely sympathize. I think one of the disadvantages of being a non-trad is that you see everything for what it is. When you're younger you don't necessarily see all the downfalls of going to medical school. But it is going to be a stress on your family, your finances, and your sanity. There's no doubt about it. I talked to a woman who started late (she's currently a 2nd year resident and is 40 years old) and I asked her if it was worth it. She has a family and everything, so I felt she was in a similar situation to me. She did hesitate a moment and said it was worth it, but she definitely wishes at times that she could just go home and be with her family.

I'm currently going through the same thoughts as you. Do I really want to work all the time, or would I rather have a 9-5 job? Is all the financial burden and stress going to be worth it in the end? Can I handle it?! I think it's okay to have these questions, and make sure medicine is really what you want to do. I have thus far managed to tell myself that I still want to pursue medicine as a career. But that may not be the case for you. I don't know. Just know that many of us have to battle with ourselves about whether or not we're doing the right thing. You just have to weigh out the pros and cons, and decide what's best for you.

FYI: I've take the MCAT twice (22N then a 23Q), and I don't have any interviews yet either. I'm also studying for the April MCAT and am preparing to reapply next year. So I know how this doubt sets in during these hard times.

I wish you the best in your decision. Take care.

you're close khenon, don't give up yet.

you could do the PA thing, alot of people do. it's only two years, you can get into any area of medicine, it's very accomodating for someone interested in a family, and it's good money for your investment.

you're probably competitive for a DO program except for the fact that you got into the application game a little late for that.

if you want to be "the man" stick to a md/do program. PA's practice the same medicine, but you don't get to make "every" call. if you need that kind of responsibility/power/autonomy/whatever then you won't be satisfied as a PA. if you want to practice medicine semi-autonomously, have a more 9-5 lifestyle where you leave your work at work, then check out the PA programs on the allied health threads here on SDN.

There's probably not a non-trad out here who hasn't and isn't wrestling with the same kinds of doubts. I am lucky enough to have been accepted into the school of my choice, but as you can probably imagine, the soul searching and second guessing doesn't stop. By definition, we as a non-traditional group, are giving something up to enter medicine. Just like most others on this forum, it appears as if sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is not as bright as it could be, and you sometimes get the feeling that is this all going to be worth it in the end?

Let me address some of your concerns to the best of my ability

fear of contracting a blood borne illness,
-- actually, this shouldn't be a huge concern, with double-gloves, the fact that the RNs/LPNs do most of the scut etc. I would categorize this as an occupational hazard, just the same way carpal tunnel syndrome affects programmers etc. Risk of contracting a pathogen is quite low.


malpractice,
-- this is a big concern of mine. However, there are specialties that are less litiginous than others. You can also work for a hospital, which pays your malpractice. Apparently from what I've heard - there are 2 safeguards - be as meticulous and don't take shortcuts, and document,document,document.

the 8 years of training, 8 years of hard-core studying,
-- yeah its a long time. but look at this way, whether you like it or not, those years are going to flow by, and its not like you're going to be happy if you let 8 years float by status quo. Even if things don't work out, at least you'll know u gave your dreams a chance.


loss of income potential during med school and residency (for the most part),
-- one of the harder things for me is the financial feasibility of the whole thing. I am hoping that I can plan my way so that by the time i graduate, i'm in debt by only 100K or less.



the horrible way med students and residents are treated by attendings,
-- pimping may be a bit harder to take for non-trads, since the attendings are very likely of the same age or younger. Also having been in the workforce for a while, you tend to become intolerant of stupid practices. however, you just grin ad bear it i guess. its a necessary evil.


the inability to be able to pursue outside interests with much vigor, and
the fact that I'm already old and worry about the impact that being a doctor will have on my future kids.

-- I'm prepared to bid adios to outside interests other than family. 4 years of medical school will at least give me more "home time" to spend with them. But yeah, its a sacrifice. However your kids will feel good telling others that their mom or pop is a physician - don't you think? :)

Hope this helped a little. All the best - and I hope u don't give up your plans.

I struggle with the same questions that you do. I took a year off to do a post-bacc, and am now applying to med schools. I've moved home, and my bank account is completely depleted. Meanwhile, my friends are now making 6 figures, while I spend my time at the grocery store wondering if I can afford hummus this week.

What I tell myself is this: if I was happy at what I was doing before, I wouldn't have made this decision. The 9 to 5 won't satisfy you, because you'll have a hard time spending 8 hours each day doing something you don't feel strongly about. And it's not just 8 hours each day, it's 8 hours each day for the rest of your life. And those evenings you think you'll have to pursue other interests? nonexistent. When I worked my 9 to 5, I was too exhausted when I got home to do anything.

the way i see it - there really is no ideal career. at the end of the day, a job is a job, and every job will have its good days and its bad days. what gets you through your bad days are your reasons for being there. for me, getting through a bad day and telling myself that i helped 14 patients today makes me less miserable than telling myself that i completed 4 excel sheets with macros. likewise, every job has its pitfalls. in medicine, this is malpractice, the rigid hierarchy, among other things. you'll find different pitfalls in other careers. i suppose it's a case of "choose your poison"

I consider everything (time and money) an investment. Sure, it hurts now, and you may feel the pinch, but nothing has more of a guaranteed return than becoming a doctor. You'll get the return financially, and emotionally. It just takes a little longer.

Thanks for the nursing suggestion but I really want a job where I'm in the position to be the decision-maker. Plus, I really don't want to go back to school if medicine is not what I end up pursuing. I'm thinking small-business owner might be another option.

Has anyone faced similar questionings? What has helped make the decision? Just a FYI: my husband is very supportive of medicine for me, but the rest of my family is 100% unsupportive--they want me to be a housewife. But they were 100% unsupportive from day 1 of my post-bacc, and I've chosen to ignore them.

Thanks,

BB

There are some good posts here ... everyone's choices are hard and every situation is different. I understand the "unsupportive" respect of family. Its funny b/c my parents always said go to med school, till I got to be 25 (yes 25 years YOUNG) and said that I would waste the best years of my life in school and I should just do law. My parents think its because I can't stick with anything. Maybe I can't stick with anything because I've always known what "I" want to do but never had the guts to really do anything about it. Medicine has always fascinated me, even when younger, but I never truly knew what it was until recently. I know my direction - I came from business background, currently trying to finsh my MBA and start my prereqs. I am doing medicine. I wanted to do nursing 2 years ago, thank god I didn't. I don't think I would have been happy. But I wasn't happy in my job out of college, instead I found another job that offered more money while I figured out what I wanted. Now I know ... my parents were against it at first ... totally. My mom went as far to say that they wouldn't support me. She has offered that I could move back home to save money, etc. I know they might not agree with everything but they come around because they see my dedication. They are just worried about the time commitment and suggest PA programs, etc. But they know I'm determined and I get what I want. I don't know if I'll get in on the first try to med school or the second, but I know I will get in. :thumbup:

In your heart, what does your heart tell you? I find that sometimes people need to listen to that and work around the rest. You have to live with your decisions you make, noone else. Best of luck! You've found a wealth of advice and comfort here :luck:

What I tell myself is this: if I was happy at what I was doing before, I wouldn't have made this decision. The 9 to 5 won't satisfy you, because you'll have a hard time spending 8 hours each day doing something you don't feel strongly about. And it's not just 8 hours each day, it's 8 hours each day for the rest of your life. And those evenings you think you'll have to pursue other interests? nonexistent. When I worked my 9 to 5, I was too exhausted when I got home to do anything.

the way i see it - there really is no ideal career. at the end of the day, a job is a job, and every job will have its good days and its bad days. what gets you through your bad days are your reasons for being there.


I am in total agreement with this having worked a 9 to 5. :thumbup: It will NOT SATISFY YOU if you do not like it. Having to motivate yourself everyday to go to work for the rest of your life will make you miserable. I met several people that settled for their jobs because it was allowing them to get the things that they wanted in life. It is not hard to find these people. Just existing in any career will actually make you unhappy. The best thing to do is to try to find a career that you are at least somewhat happy with and which fits your lifestyle. You may be able to find this in medicine contrary to popular belief. (Thanks for the info Njbmd!!!!)

EVERYONE has posted excellent information and advice!!! This probably has a lot to do with having life experiences. Nontrads are wonderful. :D

I am in total agreement with this having worked a 9 to 5. :thumbup: It will NOT SATISFY YOU if you do not like it. Having to motivate yourself everyday to go to work for the rest of your life will make you miserable. I met several people that settled for their jobs because it was allowing them to get the things that they wanted in life. Just existing in any career will actually make you unhappy. The best thing to do is to try to find a career that you are at least somewhat happy with and which fits your lifestyle. You may be able to find this in medicine contrary to popular belief. (Thanks for the info Njbmd!!!!)

EVERYONE has posted excellent information and advice!!! This probably has a lot to do with having life experiences. Nontrads are wonderful. :D
This is exactly where I am right now. I have a good job and I get paid okay. If I were to stay, I'd be able to get most of my debt (minus student loans) paid off, and have a good savings account. But I don't really like what I'm doing, and I do have to motivate myself every morning when I wake up. It's not a horrible job, but it's not what I want to be doing for the rest of my life. So, on the one hand, it won't kill me if I don't get in this year and have to reapply (maybe I CAN get that debt paid off before med school), but on the other hand, if I do get in, then I'm going for it. I'm not getting any younger, and if I have to acquire more debt, then so be it. But that's a very personal choice on my part. It's not for everyone. In fact several people that work in my lab have at least thought about applying to med school, if not had applied in the past. They all have reasons now, for not pursuing it further (family, money, etc.) and I respect that. They made a choice that they're comfortable with and seem pretty happy. But I know I need to move on. And every morning when I wake up and have to get myself into the "work" groove, I know I've made the right choice by torturing myself with this whole medical school application process. :)

This is exactly where I am right now. I have a good job and I get paid okay. If I were to stay, I'd be able to get most of my debt (minus student loans) paid off, and have a good savings account. But I don't really like what I'm doing, and I do have to motivate myself every morning when I wake up. It's not a horrible job, but it's not what I want to be doing for the rest of my life.

........

And every morning when I wake up and have to get myself into the "work" groove, I know I've made the right choice by torturing myself with this whole medical school application process. :)

This is me .... every day ... for work :(

Have you looked into the Physician Assistant profession?Be careful. There is no doubt that PA's provide an important function. Just be careful that you become one for the right reasons. If you enjoy working in an ancillary role with limited autonomy and responsibility, then becoming a PA may be the right decision for you. The PA's in our medical school who develop proficiencies outside the basic skills of a physician, or provide a niche service that is not economical for a physician to perform, seem especially satisfied with their career choice.

However, if you feel that becoming a PA will be a shortcut to being "just like a doctor", you may be making a mistake. In whatever specialty area you work, there will be significant limits on what you know and on what you are able to do. Even after working in the field for several years, you probably won't know as much about medicine as a first-year resident, and will often have to defer to residents and physicians in many clinical situations. Remember that it takes years of rigorous and formalized education to become a physician, with most doctors training for at least a decade. And just like an Internist will never magically become a Cardiologist just because he/she practiced medicine for several years, a PA will ever become "just like a doctor" without the rigorous and formalized training that he/she lacks.

There seems to be some very good advice here. Very intelligent responses.

My personal opinion is that you should stick with it. The issues that you mentioned did not seem as if they should stop you. I could think of many similar examples in any other field of endeavor.

Your concern for starting, or managing, a family is legitimate. But, remember, it does not have to be one or the other. I think you could balance it somehow, but I'm a guy so it's easy for me to say. However, as a guy, I don't want to be an absentee father, and so I can understand. But, it can work out if you seek balance.

It seems that you may regret it if you don't pursue an MD/DO.

For some inspiration, I was talking to my cell bio professor a few months ago. He was mentioning his 6 children. I said, "you must be catholic!", and as it turns out, he and his wife are. She's a practicing MD though, and from what I know, they just really work together to make it all work out. But, I know that they're still able to be quite involved in their kids lives.

Good luck.

Oh what a great thread...I feel the same way as all of you do! And thank god I am not alone either. I am 26 years old (and while some of you may not think that is too old to start a career in medicine, I do in a way) and will soon be married. My decision to become a doctor definintely put a huge burden on my fiancee and myself. When we got engaged, I was not up to the point of going back to school for medicine, I was going to do physical therapy. But then realized, like the other poster on this board, that PT would not be enough.

I too, worry about the financial struggles that my education will put on my family. I had a good job before this, and had a chance of becoming director of my department making a pretty good salary, but I gave it all up to pursue my dream. This isnt easy, and it is not easy explaining it to people but you are the one who has to live with yourself.

Sure, when I am in the library until 3am a week before finals, I want to cry and scream and say why did i do this? And then I remember the long term dream that I once set out to pursue....to become a doctor.

I am a post bacc, and recently I had a major set back in my life and my grades fell. Now, I wonder whether or not (especially as a post bacc), I can ever pull my grades back up. I dont know, I sure will try though....and if I dont get in the first time around, I will keep trying! Keep fighting and keep going. As a woman, family life, to me, is important and it will be a struggle to plan children, a home, and a life with my family. But the way I look at it is, it will just fall into place; it has to!

I once spoke to a fourth year oncology resident who told me: "There are people out there who spent 20 miserable years hating their profession. They chose it out of convenience, or money, or because they just did not know what else to do." Point is, at least you know, and are acting on it. You can spent 20 years hating your job, or you can spent half that time going back to do something you will love forever.

As a non-traditional applicant, this decision has caused me nothing but problems and anguish but I wouldn't trade it for the world. You just have to look ahead and do your best. Keep at it! DONT give up.

I think a lot of posters had some really good suggestions regarding 9-5pm jobs in medicine. I too, dont want to be an on call doctor forever. I want to spend time with my family and my children, which is why I would choose a branch of medicine that is not overly high stressed and will give me the flexibility to enjoy my life, the life I worked very hard to get!

I completely agree that this is a great thread. When I started having my doubts about what I was doing (applying to medical school), I thought maybe that was a sign that I shouldn't be doing this. I was afraid that if I wasn't 150% gun-ho about it, then there would be no way I could succeed in medical school. But after talking to a couple of non-trad med students/residents I realized that we all go through this. And in fact we may even regret our choice as we go through the rigors of medical school. But I'm told this is all temporary. And when you finish that first year of residency and finally start "knowing" stuff, you'll remember why you did all this and it will all be worth it.

Perhaps this is a thread that should be stickied? Might be of value to other non-trads in a similar situation.

Hello, it's the OP here. I think all your responses are really great. I have some more thoughts on the issue, that I'd like to share here.

I guess my main concern is whether or not I want to be that "normal" person who comes home after their 9 to 5 job, reads books for fun, watches movies, and has hobbies that they pursue with vigor. I feel that when I'm a student, the "burden" of always having a test, paper, etc. hanging over your head kind of precludes 100% guilt-free free time. I think about this issue a lot, and think that only time will tell. My current plan is to keep applying for fall '05, even though I have not gotten a single interview (I haven't heard from most of my schools at all, in fact). We'll see what happens and I'm studying to take the April MCAT again.

Next on my concern list is if I can hack the rigors of med school. I was an English major in college, took little science, and did all my pre-med requirements for the first time as a post-bacc. While I ended up with a 3.7 science average, it was far from easy most days. I hired some grad students to tutor me in physics and orgo, and so this leads me to wonder whether or not a "liberal arts" type like myself will ever be able to hack hardcore science. Do any of you wonder this also? What if I can't hack it and I end up killing a patient someday as a result? I worry about this. I mean I know you have to pass the boards and all, but what if truly excellent doctors possess an innate ability in science that I don't have and will never have?

Also, I know that if I don't do medicine, I won't be happy doing any other job but one--starting my own business. I don't want to go through more schooling since I already have my MA, and feel that being a business owner would provide a lot of the same benefits and career satisfaction as being an MD, so these are the two professions I'm kind of mulling over.

I guess when I see my husband going through residency, and how hard it is, and how he has no time to do anything (and we don't have any kids yet--and it's hard enough as it is to have time for each other) I get worried. I worry that when I'm 33-37 I won't be able to handle staying up all night every 5th night or waking up at 5 am only to come home at 6 pm--every single day for three years or never having a totally "free" weekend because of the constant, undending need to study. Because this is the lifestlye I've witnessed firsthand via my hubby.

Medicine has intrigued and motivated me for the past few years ever since I decided to follow this path. But lately, especially because of my hospital job, I've been wavering. I feel like I'm at my all-time low of motivation and enthusiasm for the career, and am starting to wonder if all the nay-sayers in my family are right--that I am making a big mistake.

-BB

Hello, it's the OP here. I think all your responses are really great. I have some more thoughts on the issue, that I'd like to share here.

I guess my main concern is whether or not I want to be that "normal" person who comes home after their 9 to 5 job, reads books for fun, watches movies, and has hobbies that they pursue with vigor. I feel that when I'm a student, the "burden" of always having a test, paper, etc. hanging over your head kind of precludes 100% guilt-free free time. I think about this issue a lot, and think that only time will tell. My current plan is to keep applying for fall '05, even though I have not gotten a single interview (I haven't heard from most of my schools at all, in fact). We'll see what happens and I'm studying to take the April MCAT again.

Next on my concern list is if I can hack the rigors of med school. I was an English major in college, took little science, and did all my pre-med requirements for the first time as a post-bacc. While I ended up with a 3.7 science average, it was far from easy most days. I hired some grad students to tutor me in physics and orgo, and so this leads me to wonder whether or not a "liberal arts" type like myself will ever be able to hack hardcore science. Do any of you wonder this also? What if I can't hack it and I end up killing a patient someday as a result? I worry about this. I mean I know you have to pass the boards and all, but what if truly excellent doctors possess an innate ability in science that I don't have and will never have?

Also, I know that if I don't do medicine, I won't be happy doing any other job but one--starting my own business. I don't want to go through more schooling since I already have my MA, and feel that being a business owner would provide a lot of the same benefits and career satisfaction as being an MD, so these are the two professions I'm kind of mulling over.

I guess when I see my husband going through residency, and how hard it is, and how he has no time to do anything (and we don't have any kids yet--and it's hard enough as it is to have time for each other) I get worried. I worry that when I'm 33-37 I won't be able to handle staying up all night every 5th night or waking up at 5 am only to come home at 6 pm--every single day for three years or never having a totally "free" weekend because of the constant, undending need to study. Because this is the lifestlye I've witnessed firsthand via my hubby.

Medicine has intrigued and motivated me for the past few years ever since I decided to follow this path. But lately, especially because of my hospital job, I've been wavering. I feel like I'm at my all-time low of motivation and enthusiasm for the career, and am starting to wonder if all the nay-sayers in my family are right--that I am making a big mistake.

-BB

Whoa! This is deep. Let me try to answer a few points that were made. I know what you mean when you said you feel guilty about relaxing when in school. I am currently in graduate school now. My spring classes have not started and I feel guilty right now that I have not finished reading at least the first chapter in my books. So, when classes actually start I will feel guilty about doing anything outside of studying. But, if you do not have any outside activities, you burn out. If I volunteer for only a couple of hours a week, I do not think my grades will really suffer. In fact, if I find out through volunteering or community service that medicine is my calling, it will actually motivate me to be more focused with my studies. I will set my schedule so that I can manage to do both. If I do nothing but study, I may put things off because I think that I have more time to do them.

Also, you did very well in your postbac coursework. Don't believe for one minute that people get good science grades without much effort. Being tutored on the college level (for science classes) is nothing like being tutored through grade school. In my mind, there is no stigma associated with it. You want to get the best grades possible. It does not matter how you do it.

If you do well in your science courses, being a liberal arts major is not a factor. Your science GPA is important and admissions committees actually like people with non-science backgrounds.

You also mentioned that you will have a lot of free time while working. Keep in mind that this is only if you REALLY have a 9 to 5. When I started working, I thought that I had a 9 to 5 but I worked 10 hour days sometimes because it was a very demanding job. I had little time to do anything during the week but go home, eat, sleep, and then go back to work for the next day. The only time that I really had was on the weekends. You have to talk to someone beforehand to find out if your job is really only just 9 to 5 on paper. If you do not know anyone who works there, you have no idea what to expect.

Just my opinion :)

I must say, reading through all these posts has been very helpful to me. And what I've gotten is that these are the people who are going to make the best, most sincere and enthusiastic doctors out there. The conscious time put into this 'nontraditional' process and all of this -wondering if i/we are good enough or sure enough- will only help to solidify the decision. Going back into school, i've been disappointed to see how many young students blindly jump into medicine, not even having had enough experiences to really validate that decision. I am certainly making a broad judgement, but OP or BB, as long as you are actively thinking about what choices to make, the answer will inevitably become clearer.
I also have felt these feelings and have, at times, lost a lot of confidence, but I don't think anything else would make me want to live this broke and this busy studying. I guess I'm hooked.
Sometimes when I'm at a crossroads, I try to think this way, where would the most regret lie? Maybe for your situation, would you regret never having gone through with pursuing medicine more, or would you regret getting into medical school? Like I said, as long as you are not just sitting on your ass waiting for an answer to drop on your lap, it will only become easier to see where your ultimate happiness lies.

While I feel that medicine is the career best suited for my personality and interests, there are many major cons as I see it. In order of importance for me, these cons are: fear of contracting a blood borne illness, malpractice, the 8 years of training, 8 years of hard-core studying, loss of income potential during med school and residency (for the most part), the horrible way med students and residents are treated by attendings, the inability to be able to pursue outside interests with much vigor, and the fact that I'm already old and worry about the impact that being a doctor will have on my future kids.

BrotherBloat;

I certainly do not know you & am loathe to come across as though I do, there are several things in your post that concern me. First & foremost, you seem to have chosen to pursue medicine through some sort of impersonal decision tree. Let me be clear about this, medicine is far too challenging a profession to have not chosen because it is your passion. Frankly, you do not sound as though you have this level of conviction - forgive me if I am wrong. Now, I am not implying that medicine is not the correct chouce for you - it may very well be. However, what I feel you need to do is invest time in doing some serious introspection - be 300% honest w/ yourself - and see if the passion for medicine truly dwells w/i you. It is my humble opinion that the frequently tauted levels of professional dissatisfaction amongst physicians for their profession is rooted in people choosing medicine for the wrong reasons. Commonly you hear non-physicians chastise physicians & physicians in training as being born of the silver spoon, mom &/or dad were/are docs, seeking wealth and all sorts of other negative connotations.

Having worked in the medical fields for in excess of 20 years, I have found these people to be fortunately exceedingly rare. However, I have found it to be alarmingly common for physicians to have chosen medicine for reasons that were not valid, not their passion or misperceptions. A personal theory is that smart, driven & competitive students tend to choose to take on tasks that are perceived as difficult. I think a lot of these folks end up in medicine because it is so difficult out of seeking the challenge...but I digress.

In essence, I think you need to spend a lot of time deciding whether this is the correct path for you. If it is - by all means GO FOR IT! However, if it is not, there is no shame in altering your direction. At stake, you have your own personal & professional sense of satisfaction & life is way too short to undertake things that make you miserable.

If I may, I also wish to quote you & address some things you state that I feel are blatant misconceptions:

While I feel that medicine is the career best suited for my personality and interests, there are many major cons as I see it. In order of importance for me, these cons are: fear of contracting a blood borne illness, malpractice, the 8 years of training, 8 years of hard-core studying, loss of income potential during med school and residency (for the most part), the horrible way med students and residents are treated by attendings, the inability to be able to pursue outside interests with much vigor, and the fact that I'm already old and worry about the impact that being a doctor will have on my future kids.

Fear of contracting a disease from your patients - while the risk is real, in actuality, such an occurence is exceedingly rare. Avoiding such an event is largely your own responsibility for takin reasonable precautions in dealing with your patients. OTOH, you encounter risk for much more common & catastrophic outcomes in every day life. Hell, you are far far more likely to die driving anywhere than you are to contract hepetitis or HIV from a patient. So, don't allow yourself to be duped by sensationalism - look the situation rationally & objectively.

The malpractice crisis is an unfortunate reality that will hopefully be dealt with over time. It is an extremely complex issue for which there is no easy solution. Tort reform may seem to be the repair of choice, but there are downsides to this too. Above all else the quality & safety of the care we deliver to our patients should be paramount in any solution we negotiate. As physicians, we are entrusted with the responsibility to do our best to sustain our patients most precious asset - their health & dignity.

8 years of training/8 years of education - let me quickly dispell this. As a physician, you have committed yourself to a lifelong committment to learning, training & study. Your patients deserve no less than a doctor who is up to date on the most current understanding of their health, pathophysiology & treatment of disease. A lifetime is even adequate to master this. So, you will always be reading & learning.

"The horrible way med students are treated" - this gets a hell of a lot of press & it absolutely irks me to no end. In "the old days" this was much more of a truism; however, today, this is the exception & not the rule. Yes, the are docs out there who are total pricks. But, there are @$$holes who work at Wendy's, J C Penneys, Microsoft & every other employer out there. As with all of those others, the overwhelming majority are just normal Joes who work & get along relatively well with others. Physicians are people BEFORE they are physicians & are subject to the same rules. Some of us are wonderful, caring & extremely personable. Others are pricks. Most of us lay somewhere in between those extremes. Furthermore, some medical students, in their own self-serving interests, feel it is advantageous to play the role of the sycophant (suck-@$$) - that somehow playing to role of doormat or "yes-man/woman" will endear them & earn them positive evals of which they may be undeserving. Even as a resident & as a med student, I have witnessed this tactic. Believe me, when on the receiving end, you are hard-pressed to remain civil. So, as with most situations, there is more than one side to the story.

Pursuing interests outside of medicine is all about choices, priorities & balance. Physicians can & do have lives outside of medicine - but they have chosen to do so & taken measure to ensure this comes to fruition. Medicine only has as much power over you as you allow it to have. Now, in med school & residency, this is not fully accurate as your schedule is more or less out of your hands. But, once you are out - you make the choices that determine your fate. And, to some extent, that ability to choose is true as a resident too. I know this because I choose to have a life (husband, father, hunter, recreational shooter....) and I am a resident in a busy program. It is not easy, but it is my choice.

I hope my post helps you see things more clearly...at least as I see things. Understand that medicine is not for everyone & that everyone who seeks to become a physician will not succeed. That may seem harsh, but it is probably best. Feel free to reply with questions, comments or "go to hell's"

I wish you the best of luck & success.

Bloat,

Although many others have contributed invaluable advice from what they've experienced, I think the answer to your question is still ultimately for you to decide. No one on this board, your husband, or your family can make that decision for you. No one, but you.

As a fellow non-traditional application, I think it's natural (and healthy) to have doubts as to your decision to pursue medicine. It's a long and arduous road ahead of you and it's perfectly normal for you to be cautious before you embark on this journey. In my opinion, I think every individual considering medicine should endure the same level introspection as you have to make certain that medicine is suited for them and that also they are suited for medicine.

I, too, have struggled with many of the same questions and frustrations that you have posted. I currently work for the federal government and derive almost zero satisfaction from my job. I shudder to think that I would spend the rest of my life behind a desk, waiting to collect my retirement check as life slowly passes me by. As I searched for a new career, it seems that medicine is what I always seem to "discover" as completing me.

Based solely on what you've posted so far, I gather that you do have a sincere dedication to want to pursue medicine, lest anyone tell you otherwise. You've gone back to school to complete a post-bacc and on top of that perform exceptionally well, given that you studied English in college. You've taken the MCAT. You've sought out a job in a hospital so that you can aquire experience in the medical field. All these things indicate to me that you have some semblence of motivation that's required to become a physician.

You mentioned that you've seen the worst parts of medicine through your husband. Have you asked him what are some of the positive aspects? Those facets are probably what motivates, if not inspires, him to get up everyday.

You need to realize that everything has both a positive and negative aspect (everything!). I think another question to ask yourself is, "Do the positive aspects of medicine outweigh the negative ones?"

Lastly, from my personal experience and exchanges with others, the one thing I've come to realize is that the hardest part of medical school is getting in. (Granted it's not a cake-walk once you're in!)

I wish you the best of luck in your decision. I'm hope that whatever it is will be the best for you.

Warmest Regards,

Sam

P.S. I hope this will be of some confort to you. I took the April 2004 MCAT and recieved a 27Q (6V, 10P, 11B). Knowing that I could do better, I retook it in August of the same year and received a 33R (9V, 12P, 12B), using ExamKrackers' materials. I applied for the fall 2005 entering class and have had one interview so far from GWU (my alma mater). I'm still waiting to hear from Stanford, Albert Einstein, Brown, Jefferson, Baylor, and Howard. I was rejected pre-secondary from Uniformed Health Services and Wake Forest. I have a 3.33 BCPM GPA (3.06 overall) and a 3.89 graduate GPA, both from studying mechanical engineering.

I just wanted to thank OldManDave for that post. I found it particularly comforting . . . especially the info on residents and personal lives. This has been a big concern of mine, and I was wondering if the resident abuse has declined in recent years. The only person I know to complete a residency was done in 1999, and she spent 4 years crying. I had never seen a more miserable person. I was very concerned that I may be the same, but I hope you're right that it's not as bad anymore. And I truly believe in the concept that you make of life what it is. You can have some control over how much you work and how much of a personal life you have. Keeping in mind that your choices may cause you not to get promoted as fast as others, or may cause you to get a divorce. But there's balance, if you make it happen. But regardless there will be great sacrifise, and I guess this is what we all battle with. I wish everyone the best in their decisions. It's by no means an easy one.

The only person I know to complete a residency was done in 1999, and she spent 4 years crying. .

After reading your story, I personally find it very hard to believe that any residency could EVER have you in such shape given what you've gone through to get to this point.

Actually it *does* depend a lot on the residency that you pursue. I have seen a variety of residents and some look like death warmed over on a daily basis while others do not (derm). So it is all highly variable not only on residency choice but also where you do it. Some things are in your hands but a lot of them are out of your control.

Next on my concern list is if I can hack the rigors of med school. I was an English major in college, took little science, and did all my pre-med requirements for the first time as a post-bacc. While I ended up with a 3.7 science average, it was far from easy most days. I hired some grad students to tutor me in physics and orgo, and so this leads me to wonder whether or not a "liberal arts" type like myself will ever be able to hack hardcore science. Do any of you wonder this also? What if I can't hack it and I end up killing a patient someday as a result? I worry about this. I mean I know you have to pass the boards and all, but what if truly excellent doctors possess an innate ability in science that I don't have and will never have?


Hi Brotherbloat,

I had to respond to this part of your message, because frankly it makes me quite angry to see an obviously intelligent and motivated woman (YOU!) using what you call your lack of innate science ability as an excuse to cop out of going to medical school. If you decide that medicine isn't the right field for you, that's one thing. But don't not do it because you don't think you "possess an innate ability in science". Having aptitude for science, while helpful, is not even sufficient to be a good scientist. There are no people who are born knowing the concepts of physics, chemistry, and biology. We all have to work to learn these things, and some of us may learn them more quickly than others, but we all have to put forth the effort nonetheless. The drive to succeed is the most important quality that a pre-med student can possibly possess. If you are of at least average intelligence (i.e., not mentally disabled) and you are willing to work hard, then you DO have enough science aptitude to succeed as a doctor.

You said you were an artist, so here is an analogy that may put this more into perspective for you. There are certainly many people who are born with some innate talent for art. However, if they do nothing to develop this talent, it is essentially like they don't even possess the talent. No one will ever benefit from their ability, not even themselves. On the other hand, you have people who are not particularly naturally good but work very hard at developing their artistic abilities, and become competent at their art. No one may ever mistake them for artistic geniuses, but their artistic accomplishments are still significant, and they are certainly "real" artists. No one thinks any less of them for having worked hard at their art.

I have 8 years of experience as a chemist and a graduate student in chemistry, and I teach MCAT prep courses for Kaplan as well as undergraduate chemistry classes at my university. I have also tutored students in these subjects; I would guess that among all of these jobs I have worked with several hundred pre-med students over the years. I can tell you from the side of being that graduate student tutor that I'd rather have one student like you, who is "merely" competent at science but motivated and hard-working, instead of 100 science geniuses who can't even be bothered to show up to class. I respect the former immensely, and I will do whatever I can to help them reach whatever potential they are capable of reaching. There isn't actually much that I can do to help the latter; they are a waste of my time and someone's tuition money.

cfdavid has written some great posts about special forces soldiers being relatively physically average but refusing to give up, and in my experience, his analogy is apt. Guess which students of mine are the ones that end up succeeding in their quest to go to med school? Not the lazy geniuses: they end up becoming business majors or dropping out of school altogether. No, the ones that make it are the seemingly average students who just won't give up.

After reading your story, I personally find it very hard to believe that any residency could EVER have you in such shape given what you've gone through to get to this point.
That was so sweet! Thanks for that comment . . . I hope you're right! :D

FYI: She was in an OB/GYN residency, so I don't know if that's particularly tough or not. But she also got a starting job at $250,000, so maybe it was worth it! :rolleyes:

Hi fellow non-trads,

While I feel that medicine is the career best suited for my personality and interests, there are many major cons as I see it. In order of importance for me, these cons are: fear of contracting a blood borne illness, malpractice, the 8 years of training, 8 years of hard-core studying, loss of income potential during med school and residency (for the most part), the horrible way med students and residents are treated by attendings, the inability to be able to pursue outside interests with much vigor, and the fact that I'm already old and worry about the impact that being a doctor will have on my future kids.



Have you considered psychiatry. (I'm a psychologist doing pre-med now; planning on one day being a psychiatrist).
From what I understand that specialization may alleviate some of your fears, i.e., contracting blood borne diseases and being unable to pursue outside interests during residency and post-residency.
Peace. :)
P.S. Or what about anesthesiology or radiology?

I always chuckle at the folks in their twenties (or thirties) who wonder how they'll survive long call nights when they're in their thirties (or forties). I am 49 and halfway through my first year of residency. I have done plenty of call nights where I did not ever see the bed in my call room except to throw my bag onto it... and I don't think I've had any worse a time of it than my much younger colleagues. No question but that a steady diet of disrupted sleep gets real old after awhile... but you do it, and you bitch & moan about it, and you get through it. And I, for one, get a lot of satisfaction out of it.

I do think that perhaps I find the demands of residency not as onerous as many people because I am so damned happy to be doing this. I love my job. And so even though the gist of my post here is that "old people can stay up all night, too," I was inspired to write by OldManDave's response talking about having passion for your career choice.

I am sure that at least part of the reason I don't get flustered by the excessive time demands of residency is because I love what I am doing. I feel exceedingly fortunate to have gotten into a career where I honestly do feel like I have had fun, learned something, and made a difference every single day.

I always chuckle at the folks in their twenties (or thirties) who wonder how they'll survive long call nights when they're in their thirties (or forties). I am 49 and halfway through my first year of residency. I have done plenty of call nights where I did not ever see the bed in my call room except to throw my bag onto it... and I don't think I've had any worse a time of it than my much younger colleagues. No question but that a steady diet of disrupted sleep gets real old after awhile... but you do it, and you bitch & moan about it, and you get through it. And I, for one, get a lot of satisfaction out of it.

I do think that perhaps I find the demands of residency not as onerous as many people because I am so damned happy to be doing this. I love my job. And so even though the gist of my post here is that "old people can stay up all night, too," I was inspired to write by OldManDave's response talking about having passion for your career choice.

I am sure that at least part of the reason I don't get flustered by the excessive time demands of residency is because I love what I am doing. I feel exceedingly fortunate to have gotten into a career where I honestly do feel like I have had fun, learned something, and made a difference every single day.

Great response. I hope to be that way. I think many of us non-trads can appreciate that since we are making such a major change in our lives. I'm happy for you, and good luck in the future.

Hi fellow non-trads,

I am in need of some serious advice as to what to do about my present dilemma. The dilemma is whether or not to continue on my path to applying to med school. Let me start with a brief history: I am a 27-year old married female former artist, who was fed up with my prior career and as a 25-year-old decided to pursue medicine. I did a post-bacc program (informal) at a 4-year university, did reasonably well (3.7) and took the August MCAT, in which I got a 25 (didn't have much time to study, felt I could do better.)

After the August MCAT, I got a job working full-time at a hospital as a clinical research assistant. My job is okay, but it has definitely shown me the worst sides of medicine, and that, combined with the fact that my husband is in medicine and I see the worst parts of it through him as well, are starting to sway me towards just stopping the whole process right now. Plus, I started actually applying for fall '05 and I haven't even gotten an interview by now, and I'm studying for the April MCAT again, which isn't helping, because I'm fed up with the whole process. I'm really wrestling with whether or not to continue on this med school path, and I wondered if anyone has any input.

While I feel that medicine is the career best suited for my personality and interests, there are many major cons as I see it. In order of importance for me, these cons are: fear of contracting a blood borne illness, malpractice, the 8 years of training, 8 years of hard-core studying, loss of income potential during med school and residency (for the most part), the horrible way med students and residents are treated by attendings, the inability to be able to pursue outside interests with much vigor, and the fact that I'm already old and worry about the impact that being a doctor will have on my future kids.

On the other hand, I have searched and searched for a profession or career that would "complete me" and have come up empty-handed. I feel very at home in the hospital, love being around sick people, love working in the operating room, and am very inspired by the human body and healing others.

I did struggle with my post-bacc courses, and getting my 3.7 was at times difficult, and I also worry how I'll be able to handle 5 basic science med school courses at once. I also struggle with whether I want to be a "normal" person with a 9 to 5 job who goes home and doesn't have to study and can pursue outside interests, or whether I want to have a career that's not just a career but an identity.

Does anyone have any advice or insight as I struggle with these questions? Do any non-trads who are currently in med school regret their decision? If so, why?

Thanks so much,

Bloat


why not apply to West Virginia medical schools? I know plenty of people here that have gotten into a DO school here with only 17's on the MCAT

BB, I share the same concerns that you and the others have mentioned. I think the responses have been insightful and hopefully will help you make the decision, although I agree with the poster who said that the decision is ultimately and uniquely yours. I have so many different interests that sometimes I think it is possible to have more than one passion or calling in life. It sounds as though being a doctor and being a business owner are both ideas that have surrounded and appealed to you for some time, and whichever one you choose, you can and will make it a worthwhile decision.

One thing you probably have considered but which I will toss out there anyhow is that starting your own business, from what I hear, is also extremely challenging, time-consuming, expensive and risky. Fostering a young business is probably not a 9-5 job either. Both seem to be difficult yet rewarding roads in their own respects.

i am a 31 year old male, married 1st year med student and we have 2 children. trying to juggle everything in life is difficult enough without compounding it with a 20 course hour workload.

the bottom line is: DO YOU WANT IT??

of course there are negative aspects of practicing medicine. we had a 2 hour discussion just yesterday in one of my classes about that very subject. and we concluded that your career in medicine is what you make of it. you can fall into the molds that exist and deal with the bull**** that goes along with being a physician and also contribute to that same bull****, or, you can work within the system, giving way where you need to while maintaining your sanity and the drive that got you there in the 1st place.

can you honestly picture yourself as a physician? think about it. think about the positives that can come from it.

all i can advise is to find what it is inside you that makes you want it and follow what you know is true.

good luck,

clkimmey

Sounds like your mind is made up so get your apps out everywhere and get into a school!!! It is normal to have all those apprehensions especially as the time draws near to being a set commitment. I had many of the same fears and worries and so did most all of my classmates. But you have come this far so GO FOR IT!!! It is the most awesome thing in the world when your hard work finally starts paying off in the hospital as you begin to manage patients as a member of the clinical team. Yes you will be in a HUGE hole financially. Yes you will lose a lot of valuable years of your life. Yes you will struggle with your classes and your studies. Yes you will stress out before every single of 200 exams. Yes you will be standing tall and feeling proud of your accomplishments when you walk through the wards with your white coat interacting with patients and writing in their charts!!!!! :-)
BEST OF LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like your mind is made up so get your apps out everywhere and get into a school!!! It is normal to have all those apprehensions especially as the time draws near to being a set commitment. I had many of the same fears and worries and so did most all of my classmates. But you have come this far so GO FOR IT!!! It is the most awesome thing in the world when your hard work finally starts paying off in the hospital as you begin to manage patients as a member of the clinical team. Yes you will be in a HUGE hole financially. Yes you will lose a lot of valuable years of your life. Yes you will struggle with your classes and your studies. Yes you will stress out before every single of 200 exams. Yes you will be standing tall and feeling proud of your accomplishments when you walk through the wards with your white coat interacting with patients and writing in their charts!!!!! :-)
BEST OF LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uhmmm...this thread was back in 2005.:)

:laugh::shrug:

Holy blast from the SDN past! I wonder what BB decided to do.