Can some residents or practicing OMS give their opinions and perspectives on the two programs. I'm an older student, like OMS, and am curious about what the MD really does for you. Thanks.
4 year vs. 6 year OMS Programs
- Thread starter drhobie7
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I will be entering a 6 year oms residency come this july.
Some reasons I opted for the extra 2 letters.
- more academic training
- ALL my mentors encouraged me to get the 2 letters
- schwarzenegger said only people with the extra 2 letters can have more "practicing priviledges" in california
- i want to make my name longer
Some reasons I opted for the extra 2 letters.
- more academic training
- ALL my mentors encouraged me to get the 2 letters
- schwarzenegger said only people with the extra 2 letters can have more "practicing priviledges" in california
- i want to make my name longer
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Doggie said:- schwarzenegger said only people with the extra 2 letters can have more "practicing priviledges" in california
That must suck for 4 year OMS that have been practicisng already. Its not like they can go back and get the MD now. Imagine doing something you have been doing for years, but are not allowed to do it now.
OMS always peaks my interest, but 6 years is just too long. And 4 years would be no fun if you couldn't do the interesting stuff
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drhobie7 said:
The official position of the American Association of OMFS is that scope of practice is not dictated by degree. That is, DDS/DMD OMFS are as qualified to practice the full scope of OMFS as DMD/MD, DDS/MD oral surgeons.
Now, for those of us who live in the real world, I'd say, from both personal experience (as a GPR resident in a large health center) and conversations with oral surgeons, that public perception is a totally different story. I'm in the Northeast, where, based on my experience, it appears that dual-degree surgeons are more readily accepted as 'surgeons' by physicians, whereas single-degree OMFS are considered "dentists". Of course this is total bull, because ALL OMFS are BOTH Dentists and Surgeons. But, public perception/perception within the medical community is a different story.
Long story short - there is a "two-tiered" view of oral surgeons based on degree, and this misconception exists because AAOMS has be totally ineffective at educating the public about what OMFS do and how they are trained.
Personally, if you're young and energetic, I'd recommend going for the MD. Who knows how laws will change in the future (eg California and cosmetic procedures), and it appears that the MD will help protect you (to some degree) against these changes, because you will be a licenesed physician.
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ajmacgregor said:
AAMOS has done nothing wrong. The public is dumb. And they won't be getting any smarter anytime soon so i wouldn't worry much. And i wouldn't worry much about MD vs. just a DDS becuase the piggy bank will always be sitting behind the second molar no matter how many degrees you have.
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airvent said:
This is not true at all. Many old 4-year OMFSs (who are in practice for many years) are going to this online "offshore"/international medical school to obtain their MD degree. There was this article in the JOMS not too long ago about this 4-year OMFSs getting their MD degree from an international medical school (which are AAMC accredited). All the 6-year MD/OMFSs were all bitching and moaning about it.
here's the reference:
JOMS, 63:571-572, 2005
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north2southOMFS said:ajmacgregor said:Long story short - there is a "two-tiered" view of oral surgeons based on degree, and this misconception exists because AAOMS has be totally ineffective at educating the public about what OMFS do and how they are trained.
Yes, American Airlines Material Ordering System (http://www.aamos.org/) has done nothing wrong. I was talking about AAOMS.
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Yah-E said:
Yep, these guys give oral surgeons (both single and dual degree) a bad name. The MD/OMFSs were up in arms because these guys were claiming to be MDs but are not licensed to practice medicine. You cannot be licensed to practice medicine unless you pass all three parts of the USMLE and complete at least one year of post-graduate training in an AMA approved residency.
With a chilling amount of foreshadowing, Daniel Laskin wrote an editorial about this in JOMS in 2000:
Laskin DM. A double standard in double degree. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2000 Sep;58(9):933-4. PMID: 10981971.
In this editorial, Laskin states that:
"Thus, such persons may be entitled to place MD after their name, but they
cannot legally practice under that degree. One might argue that we already have some oral and maxillofacial surgeons with a medical degree who never
sought medical licensure. However, graduation from an American or Canadian medical school guarantees a certain standard of education that is subject to overview by an accreditation process, which is not necessarily true in all medical schools around the world. Therefore, there is the potential for a double standard in the double degree, which may be misleading to the
public and unfair to the single-degree as well as the qualified dual-degree oral and maxillofacial surgeon. I believe that our specialty is currently facing sufficient challenges from some of our medical colleagues without adding another unnecessary factor, such as this, to the equation."
DANIEL M. LASKIN
In fact, this pathway probably won't be viable - many states are likely to follow the state of Kansas and prevent these guys from advertising their MDs.
See - http://www.dentalwatch.org/reg/thomas.html
Also, Yah-E, you're totally incorrect about accreditation. The Antigua medical school is not recognized by the AMA or the AAMC:
From - http://www.dentalwatch.org/edu/uhsa.html
UHSA is not accredited by the Liaison Committee for Medical Education (LCME), which only accredits U.S. and Canadian medical schools. Graduates from international medical schools can be licensed in the United States once certain criteria are met. But UHSA graduates from UHSA are not permitted to apply for medical licenses in at least two states, California and Indiana [2]. In response to the American Medical News story, the president of the American Association of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons, responded that the vast majority of oral and maxillofacial surgeons with MDs have attained their MD degree by completing oral and maxillofacial surgery residency training programs that integrate two to three years of medical education in an LCME-accredited medical school [3]. These programs are also vastly superior to the UHSA program.
From - http://www.uhsa.ag/pstudent/lib-artsci/student-profile.htm
The American Medical Association (AMA) does not approve Medical Programs outside of the United States. Therefore, our Institution does not need approval other than that from World Health Organization (WHO). Successful completion of the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) is essential for those graduates interested in practicing in the United States. The American Medical Association (AMA) or State Licensing Boards will not rubber stamp any foreign Medical School's Program regardless of the Program's content. Some State Licensing Boards usually request information about the Program along with the official records of the student after he/she has graduated and passed the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE).
Thanks for the replies. Very informative. There are two 5 year dual degree programs in the US: Nebraska and Case Western (I think). What's the word on the street about those. I probably sound petty trying to trim off a year of residency. What can I say, I'm a petty man.
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Ahhh, I see! Someone is over compensating for something!!!Doggie said:I will be entering a 6 year oms residency come this july.
- i want to make my name longer
Back to the topic, if I had a choice bw 4yr and 6yr then I would go for 6yr. Why not go all the way, right?! You probably will practice over 20-30yrs. 2 extra yrs seem to be insignificant, imo, if you don't think about losing around $500K for those 2yrs! (if you were practicing as an OMFS)
My name would look something like, Big "Ego" Head, BS, MS, DMD, MD, SOB, FAOMS
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Did you guys see this website. Plastic surgeons are ripping single degree Omfs off. It's crazy.
http://www.safeplasticsurgery.org/
http://www.safeplasticsurgery.org/
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MAXFAC said:
Another argument for getting the MD.
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Actually having a MD degree doesn't mean you're formally trained to do plastic surgery, even 6yr OMFS. Any MD/DO can call themselves "plastic/cosmetic surgeon" regardless of the training, skills and background.shiftyeyes said:
The website is absurd! A bunch of spin doctors. It probably was set up by a disgruntled plastic surgeon! They've blown things out of proportion. According to them "dentists" and "dental surgeons" want to do plastic surgery. That's just total bs.MAXFAC said:
Navigating through all of the bs, they do have a valid point, "if you are a patient considering plastic surgery *- find board certified plastic surgeons"
It doesn't matter whether one is MD or DDS/MD. There're a lot of butchers out there. No one should perform plastic surgery unless he/she has done a plastic surgery residency and they should be board certified in plastic surgery.
An OMFS at my school can receive a plastic surgery residency
http://www.surgery.upmc.edu/Plastics/Residency/Application.htm
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Wooo 
Those guys are angry. They have a point, but don't say that many "dental Surgeons " are MDs as well.
here is their comparsion:
http://www.safeplasticsurgery.org/documents/comp_chart.pdf
Those guys are angry. They have a point, but don't say that many "dental Surgeons " are MDs as well.here is their comparsion:
http://www.safeplasticsurgery.org/documents/comp_chart.pdf
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Those neurology & ob/gyn clerkships will be invaluable during a genioplasty.safeplasticsurgery.org said:
Is this completely objective? There's DIAGNOSIS and MANAGEMENT for the med students, but I don't see anything about all the hours spent looking for the chief resident's stethoscope calibrator, or the paper splitter, or...
(Please note the ellipsis--just like on the other website, it implies the existence of mountains of further corroborating data that you should just trust me about.)
You know, this part strikes me as a little funny too. Any dentist who passes dental school & a licensing exam is at least minimally competent to practice dentistry independently. If apprentice plastic surgeon spend 24 months on DIAGNOSIS and MANAGEMENT while dental students just sit on our thumbs all day...how is it that we're ready to practice as soon as we climb down from the graduation stage, while the only thing most new interns are qualified to do is ask the floor nurses or page the chief resident?
Odd, that.
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This is another whole can of worms, but this statement is a assumption which shows the success of the Plastics propoganda put out by the ASPS. When you say "plastic surgery" I'm guessing you really mean "cosmetic surgery". Plastic & Reconstructive surgery is a very broad field including hand surgery, burn reconstruction, free flaps, cancer/mastectomy reconstruction, etc. It's ironic that they don't get as much cosmetics training as the general public thinks. The Plastics residents at my institution only spend 3 months in a "cosmetics" rotation their chief year, and this time is spread thin across the entire body. This is the main reason why a fellowship-trained OMFS, ENT, etc can easily be more experienced in facial cosmetics. Some ENT & OMFS programs do enough facial cosmetics that a fellowship probably isn't even necessary.lnn2 said:
I'm personally not interested in cosmetics, but just something to think about.
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Agree with Toofache. A resident graduating from my program will have done nearly 4 times or more cosmetic head and neck surgeries than PRS residents at the same institution...not to mention they will have done nearly 6 times as much head and neck trauma...
Political things suck.
When one of the head OR nurses' kid needed a rhinoplasty, did she go to plastics? Did she go to ENT? Noooo. She came to OMFS...and she knows how all of them operate...
Political things suck.
When one of the head OR nurses' kid needed a rhinoplasty, did she go to plastics? Did she go to ENT? Noooo. She came to OMFS...and she knows how all of them operate...
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So who's dropping the ball on getting the word out? AAOMS? The OMS themselves? Somebody else entirely?River13 said:
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aphistis said:
Sad thing is not ALL OMFS residencies are like mine...wish they were...
Still I can't see how anyone can argue that even an everyday OMFS who puts a blown-off face from a gunshot back together can't do a simple cosmetic procedure...
That's the reason the website isn't entitled "Safe Head and Neck Surgery for Trauma Patients"...trauma patients typically don't pay well, so PRS's don't care that the area is filled with OMFS's.
Who's fault on not getting the word out? Got me...I feel like its all I do.
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Yes, I meant "cosmetic surgery". I agree, it's another whole can of worms! It's politics. And it's a turf war between plastic/cosmetic vs OMFS vs general surgery vs MD with no formal surgery training vs other quacks.....toofache32 said:
An unreal example is that a GP dentist who's been practicing 10, 20+ yrs of dentistry and thinks that he knows everything about endodontics thus starts calling himself an endodontist! Sure he might have a lot of experience, possibly a better clinician than an inexperienced endodontist but he can't call himself endodontist....
I think that anyone who's calling themselves "Plastic/Cosmetic surgeon" should have done a plastic/cosmetic surgery residency, fellowship and board certified. It may not mean much to an experienced surgeon but it's the creditbility & liability aspect. It minimizes the chances of running into a quack performing surgery. It's what separates an US cosmetic surgeon from a south of border cosmetic surgeon. That's why a specialist can charge a sky high price and a quack usually charges much less.
When I think about a cosmetic surgeon, I think of artistic eyes and experience hands. If I were to have a cosmetic surgery procedure done then I would ask for referals and I would definitely check the surgeon's formal training, fellowship, board certified, how many particular cases has the surgeon operated, litigations...On the other hand, a board certified doesn't necessarily mean that he's not a butcher! So being an educated consumer helps! but not every regular Joan Public knows how to chose a cosmetic surgeon.
I can see an OMFS doing facial cosmetic surgery but anything below the neck should require at least some formal training. I don't have any problems with an OMFS performing a rhinoplasty on me. I know they have the training and experience. My school even have a rhinoplasty brochure, explaining the procedure for dental patients.
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Putting a blown-off face from a gunshot is like bringing a 20% face back or as close to as 100% of a normal face. It's a "reconstructive" procedure. It's rare to achieve 100% result. I believe that it's very different than doing a simple/complex cosmetic procedure (nip/tuck!) in a 100% healthy but with minor imperfections face. In this case you have to get the procedure very close to 100% or over 100%. It's a "cosmetic" procedure.River13 said:
I'm sure that ER docs do surgery too but they definitely do not perform "cosmetic" surgery in the hospital. If every professional sticks to their scope of practice then it would prevent a lot of complications to the patients and themselves!River13 said:
I can legally do biopsy, invasive oral surgery but I know better not to do it because it could blow up in my face. I don't have a formal training to back it up! All it takes is just one screwed up case to ruin my career!
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lnn2 said:
Good point. I personally think that there's plenty of money in routine OMFS procedures (thirds, implants, etc.). You could probably make more money doing routine OMFS rather than doing face lifts/rhinoplasties/blephs.
Some make the argument that OMFS elect to do facial plastics procedures because routine OMFS stuff can get pretty monotonous...Besides, if you really need that much intellectual stimulation, take trauma call.
