What do most oral surgeons in the real world do? I know of oral surgeons saying that they are stuck pulling 3rd, since most of the other more intensitive maxillofacial surgeries (eg TMJ/othoganatic) are performed by surgeons in the medical field. Is this true?

Is this true?

No

I beg to differ here.In most cases where the omfs goes into office based practise ,they do end up pulling 3rd.Nevertheless,I do know atleast one person who makes over 900 grand doing this.So ,he doesnt care.Those who decide to work in the hospitals are not as handsomely paid as pvt practise but get to do lot more.Again ,there is a clash with ENT and head nad neck surgeons and they do consider DDS as just dentists.Ii guess, that is where the MD helps.I happened to ave a discussion about having an MD to a head n neck surgeon and his response was something like this,"2 yrs med school does not mean anything more than MD and omfs training.Me personally ,if I could pull teeth and make 900 grand ,gee ,I can do that all day along .I could care less about what someone thinks about my profession.

What do most oral surgeons in the real world do? I know of oral surgeons saying that they are stuck pulling 3rd, since most of the other more intensitive maxillofacial surgeries (eg TMJ/othoganatic) are performed by surgeons in the medical field. Is this true?

M3 extraction is the bread and butter of OMS. I know a guy who just does implants. And there's another guy who just does orthognathic. They're all single degree OMS. I was told by an OMS faculty that the MD is useful if you want to do facial plastics in California (or another state limiting practice) or you want to become involved in the higher levels of a hospital.

Again ,there is a clash with ENT and head nad neck surgeons and they do consider DDS as just dentists.Ii guess, that is where the MD helps.

My understanding is ENTs work posterior to the pterygomandibular raphe. ENTs are not trained to "deal" with teeth and occlusion.

The head of OMFS at UConn "only" has a DMD. He does orthognathics all the time. It's the "content" of the residency program and the individual surgeons comfort level that determines the scope of practice in OMFS.

The MD is good if you want to stay on another year and get a general surgery certificate or expand your practice outside of OMFS. But the lack of this certificate does not hinder the surgeons who are properly trained and only have a DMD/DDS degree.

What's not necessarily true is the idea that DMD/MD automatically do more than just DMD/DDS.

You mentioned TMJ & Orthognathics done by other surgeons "in the medical field". I don't know of any non-oral surgeons who are trained in this. There are a handfull of plastic surgeons who have done craniofacial fellowships that dabble in orthognathics, but this is predominantly an oral surgery procedure.

Most of these "bigger" surgeries aren't done much because reimbursement is so low. Where I went to dental school, a single-jaw orthognathic case was paid $800 and a double-jaw was $1200. That's ridiculous for the amount of pre-op planning and time that goes into the surgery. Not to mention all the post-op care. Most oral surgeons would rather make the exact same money by doing a 30-minute set of 3rd molars. Extractions also have much lower morbidity and less severe risks/complications. Also, you can do it in your office and don't have to share with a hospital.

I agree with all of you.I ma yet to come across a omfs with or without MD who could make it into a medical fellowship,principally plastics.Infact check out this website safeplasticsurgery.org.
I do agree when an MD questions your surgical skills as most of the time your specialty deals only oral cavity and TMJ.Comfort levels of a surgeon is an issue,but most of the time oral surgeons in pvt practise prefer to do only small procedures coz 'if by any chance they get sued they can defend themselves.If you are sued for a radical neck dissection ,even with an MD the Omfs will be in hot water.It all comes down to economics as some above mentioned .The more riskier the procedure more the insurance.
I always wondered about people going to an oral surgeon for iv sedation.Incase ,the patient codes on his chair ,office doesnt even have a backup MD,or specifically an anesthesiologist.When I am ready to get my 3rd pulled out I am going to a hospital where there is a back up when I am sedated .All this because ,one of my patients coded and I could see the omfs faculty pissin in their pants coz they did not have an anesthesiologist .I guess lot of things are deduced out of personal experiences.

I agree with all of you.I ma yet to come across a omfs with or without MD who could make it into a medical fellowship,principally plastics.Infact check out this website safeplasticsurgery.org.
I do agree when an MD questions your surgical skills as most of the time your specialty deals only oral cavity and TMJ.Comfort levels of a surgeon is an issue,but most of the time oral surgeons in pvt practise prefer to do only small procedures coz 'if by any chance they get sued they can defend themselves.If you are sued for a radical neck dissection ,even with an MD the Omfs will be in hot water.It all comes down to economics as some above mentioned .The more riskier the procedure more the insurance.
I always wondered about people going to an oral surgeon for iv sedation.Incase ,the patient codes on his chair ,office doesnt even have a backup MD,or specifically an anesthesiologist.When I am ready to get my 3rd pulled out I am going to a hospital where there is a back up when I am sedated .All this because ,one of my patients coded and I could see the omfs faculty pissin in their pants coz they did not have an anesthesiologist .I guess lot of things are deduced out of personal experiences.
Huh? You have no idea what you're talking about, and you have no clue as to the training required of an oral & maxillofacial surgeon in the US. You can start by going here to get a clue: http://www.aaoms.org/media_relation.cfm#

Last time I checked I went to school over here and ,did GPR going on 2nd yr .Maybe ,even omfs if I ever get a chance.So ,I might just happen to know few things as much as you or maybe even better.Oh,forgot to tell you ,I went to Harvard.

This is straight out of the website you asked me to check .Please do read towards the conclusion and I do not want to get in to any arguments with anybody here.
"Definition of Dentistry
Dentistry is defined as the evaluation, diagnosis, prevention and/or treatment (nonsurgical, surgical or related procedures) of diseases, disorders and/or conditions of the oral cavity, maxillofacial area and/or the adjacent and associated structures and their impact on the human body; provided by a dentist, within the scope of his/her education, training and experience, in accordance with the ethics of the profession and applicable law"

Oh,forgot to tell you ,I went to Harvard.
Where?

This is straight out of the website you asked me to check .Please do read towards the conclusion and I do not want to get in to any arguments with anybody here.
"Definition of Dentistry
Dentistry is defined as the evaluation, diagnosis, prevention and/or treatment (nonsurgical, surgical or related procedures) of diseases, disorders and/or conditions of the oral cavity, maxillofacial area and/or the adjacent and associated structures and their impact on the human body; provided by a dentist, within the scope of his/her education, training and experience, in accordance with the ethics of the profession and applicable law"
You'll have to explain what you're pointing out here...I guess I didn't go to Hahvad.

If you are sued for a radical neck dissection ,even with an MD the Omfs will be in hot water.It all comes down to economics as some above mentioned ..

Dude, you are cracking me up, keep talking.


I always wondered about people going to an oral surgeon for iv sedation.Incase ,the patient codes on his chair ,office doesnt even have a backup MD,or specifically an anesthesiologist.When I am ready to get my 3rd pulled out I am going to a hospital where there is a back up when I am sedated ..

You go dog...that hospital sedation will cost you fortunes!!!

Backup MD, what for, so he can get the coffee for you?

All this because ,one of my patients coded and I could see the omfs faculty pissin in their pants coz they did not have an anesthesiologist .I guess lot of things are deduced out of personal experiences.

Broken english, omfs pissin pants because a pt. is coding....what 3rd world country was this taking place?

Oh,forgot to tell you ,I went to Harvard.


The funniest part is....you think that impresses us!

So you know how to read a journal article now....

within the scope of his/her education, training and experience, in accordance with the ethics of the profession and applicable law"


Yup, no arguments. We get trained to do radical necks, so where is the problem here?

Last time I checked I went to school over here and ,did GPR going on 2nd yr .Maybe ,even omfs if I ever get a chance.So ,I might just happen to know few things as much as you or maybe even better.Oh,forgot to tell you ,I went to Harvard.
Harvard obviously has very stringent entrance requirements such as spelling and grammar.

Can someone please translate??? I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt and so I assume it's just me who's having a hard time understanding what's being said. I speak english and want to know if there is someone here who speaks......well whatever BBGUN speaks.

Maybe it's because I didn't go to Harvard???

He has no idea how entertaining this is.

An update on my confusion. I tried to use the google.com translation page but it was a no go :confused: It won't translate Klingon to English.

Dude, it is the fact that everything is done in broken english! It just makes your comments that much sweeter.

I ma yet to come across a omfs with or without MD who could make it into a medical fellowship,principally plastics

I've got it!!!!!!! He speaks Cajun!

I've got it!!!!!!! He speaks Cajun!

Nope....that's not it :(

Last time I checked I went to school over here and ,did GPR going on 2nd yr .Maybe ,even omfs if I ever get a chance.So ,I might just happen to know few things as much as you or maybe even better.Oh,forgot to tell you ,I went to Harvard.

Man, they have some weird grammar over there at Harvard. Since when did the comma follow a space, and then not get a space after the comma (see how I did that...pretty tricky, huh?) I feel bad for the Hardvard students and grads out there. I mean, do they really want this grammatically challenged individual representing them? I hope not.

Alright, BBGun is upset. He PM'd me just to let me know I suck. I take it all back. Everything was perfectly intelligible and I was being a mean person. I'll be a good boy now :D

I got a PM too, but it didn't really make any more sense. I'm not sure why he's hiding now. Maybe you guys can help decipher:

"I can feel every pore in your body oozing jealousiness.It is human to be like that,and american board of oral an maxillofacial surgeons is the parent body.Dint feel like putting it out in the open ,thus demeaning your intelligence.
And ,if you dont know where harvard is,this might just realate to your life"Little knowledge is dangerous".
Sorry,if I sound arrogant .Have to step up and be like that in this worl d.You know what I am talking about.But,I retreat and will give you the benefit of being unwise." --BBGUN

BBGun is also upset that I "stooped down" and referred to him/her as a male without knowing his/her gender. I wholeheartedly apologize for my assumptions about BBGuns gender.

Last time I checked I went to school over here and ,did GPR going on 2nd yr .Maybe ,even omfs if I ever get a chance.So ,I might just happen to know few things as much as you or maybe even better.Oh,forgot to tell you ,I went to Harvard.


Bro...and let me comment...it seems obvious why you did a GPR....because you don't know anything about either dentistry or OMFS

I also apoligize to any Cajun board members as I now know that the word "Cajun" is a noun describing a large community of people in southern Louisiana originally of French Canadian origin and not a language.

Guys,I just joined the forum and came right into a warzone.
Do not be this unprofessional,people.Let go.I am not taking any sides here,so do not roll all over me.It really pays to listen to what others have to say.Sometimes,thats how we learn new things.Maybe,the moderator needs to inttervene.
Can any oral surgeon(or would be) here explain to me the scope of oral surgery other than pulling 3rds in a private practise?I do understand that training includes many things ,but what about the real world?All of you ,how the dental school training is.I mean though they teach us a lot ,there is always areas where they do not educate us with anything.I did an externship and realised how little they trained us for managing medical emergencies.
Any kind of input will be appreciated.

I told ya,you did learn something new. :)

I also apoligize to any Cajun board members as I now know that the word "Cajun" is a noun describing a large community of people in southern Louisiana originally of French Canadian origin and not a language.

Guys,I just joined the forum and came right into a warzone.
Do not be this unprofessional,people.Let go.I am not taking any sides here,so do not roll all over me.It really pays to listen to what others have to say.Sometimes,thats how we learn new things.Maybe,the moderator needs to inttervene.
Can any oral surgeon(or would be) here explain to me the scope of oral surgery other than pulling 3rds in a private practise?I do understand that training includes many things ,but what about the real world?All of you ,how the dental school training is.I mean though they teach us a lot ,there is always areas where they do not educate us with anything.I did an externship and realised how little they trained us for managing medical emergencies.
Any kind of input will be appreciated.


Did you go to Harvard too? Or do you just coincedentally have the same grammatical style as our friend?

Did you go to Harvard to? Or do you just coincedentally have the same grammatical style as our friend?

I'm ready to urinate in my pants! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm ready to urinate in my pants! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:laugh:

I dont get your point.

I dont get your point.

Uconn_sdm
I dont get your point.


Too much water today. Sorry :thumbup:

Just when I thought today would be boring..

I do not get your point.What grammatical style are you talking about?
How about helping me out with my question.You can vent your anger at the other cat,why me?

You got that right buddy.
Just when I thought today would be boring..

do not get your point.What grammatical style are you talking about?
How about helping me out with my question.You can vent your anger at the other cat,why me?

Why are you picking on me? GBDental is the one who commented on your style of writing.

What GBdental?You guys are out of your mind.I should have posted my question elsewhere.This seems like the drunken thread.

What GBdental?You guys are out of your mind.I should have posted my question elsewhere.This seems like the drunken thread.

Sorry Dentist1, or is it BBGun, I'm confused. ;)
You have a "unique" grammatical style and I applaud you for embracing it. As far as this being the drunken thread, that's not a bad idea. Seeing as UConn is already pissing his pants though, that might not be a good idea. :laugh:

"That's it, that's all I have!"

As far as this being the drunken thread, that's not a bad idea. Seeing as UConn is already pissing his pants though, that might not be a good idea. :laugh:

"That's it, that's all I have!"

Let the vino rosso flow freely and let the Depends take care of the consequences!

buona sera

I give up too.I took my post elswhere to surgery forum.That is the best I can do.This thread needs intervention.Dentist1 out.

When GP's refer crown lengthening, do they refer to OMFS or Perio? Just curious.

Perio,as far as I know.
When GP's refer crown lengthening, do they refer to OMFS or Perio? Just curious.

Sorry Dentist1, or is it BBGun, I'm confused. ;)
You have a "unique" grammatical style and I applaud you for embracing it. :laugh:

"That's it, that's all I have!"
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I agree with all of you.I ma yet to come across a omfs with or without MD who could make it into a medical fellowship,principally plastics.Infact check out this website safeplasticsurgery.org.
I do agree when an MD questions your surgical skills as most of the time your specialty deals only oral cavity and TMJ.Comfort levels of a surgeon is an issue,but most of the time oral surgeons in pvt practise prefer to do only small procedures coz 'if by any chance they get sued they can defend themselves.If you are sued for a radical neck dissection ,even with an MD the Omfs will be in hot water.It all comes down to economics as some above mentioned .The more riskier the procedure more the insurance.
I always wondered about people going to an oral surgeon for iv sedation.Incase ,the patient codes on his chair ,office doesnt even have a backup MD,or specifically an anesthesiologist.When I am ready to get my 3rd pulled out I am going to a hospital where there is a back up when I am sedated .All this because ,one of my patients coded and I could see the omfs faculty pissin in their pants coz they did not have an anesthesiologist .I guess lot of things are deduced out of personal experiences.


I am always amazed by the quickness of some to criticize the scope of practice of a field (OMS) they obviously know nothing about. Frankly, it's disrespectful to do so, as it fails to recognize the sacrifice, tremendous effort, and knowledge that has been developed by these doctors. To hear this from a dentist is just plain shocking. I guess the clinical exposure at Harvard is as deficient as I am told. I can't imagine any other explanation for your misguided notions.

You need to spend a week with an OMS in a hospital and then you'll have a much better idea of what they do.

grabs popcorn...

I am always amazed by the quickness of some to criticize the scope of practice of a field (OMS) they obviously know nothing about. Frankly, it's disrespectful to do so, as it fails to recognize the sacrifice, tremendous effort, and knowledge that has been developed by these doctors. To hear this from a dentist is just plain shocking. I guess the clinical exposure at Harvard is as deficient as I am told. I can't imagine any other explanation for your misguided notions.

You need to spend a week with an OMS in a hospital and then you'll have a much better idea of what they do.


Amen :thumbup:

You need to spend a week with an OMS in a hospital and then you'll have a much better idea of what they do.
Mah diddy said he don't want no dentist pullin no teef without knockin him out cause he shoots dogs what come in the yard.

http://img237.echo.cx/img237/6271/harvarddogpoop0ie.jpg

<dinesh falls to the ground laughing uncontrollably>

Dog is probably really enjoying that.

http://img128.echo.cx/img128/1872/outhouseharvard2ql.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

this is some funny stuff....good one tx oms! :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: Man, I love this! :thumbup:

Freaking too funny!! :laugh:

I agree with all of you.I ma yet to come across a omfs with or without MD who could make it into a medical fellowship,principally plastics.Infact check out this website safeplasticsurgery.org.
I do agree when an MD questions your surgical skills as most of the time your specialty deals only oral cavity and TMJ.Comfort levels of a surgeon is an issue,but most of the time oral surgeons in pvt practise prefer to do only small procedures coz 'if by any chance they get sued they can defend themselves.If you are sued for a radical neck dissection ,even with an MD the Omfs will be in hot water.It all comes down to economics as some above mentioned .The more riskier the procedure more the insurance.
I always wondered about people going to an oral surgeon for iv sedation.Incase ,the patient codes on his chair ,office doesnt even have a backup MD,or specifically an anesthesiologist.When I am ready to get my 3rd pulled out I am going to a hospital where there is a back up when I am sedated .All this because ,one of my patients coded and I could see the omfs faculty pissin in their pants coz they did not have an anesthesiologist .I guess lot of things are deduced out of personal experiences.

Wow, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Based on your post history, I'm guessing that you are a foreign trained dentist, a liar (who didn't go to Harvard), and someone who knows ABSOLUTELY nothing about OMFS.

For your education, I've posted a copy of the Accreditation Standards for Residency Training in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery. I'm sure you'll apologize to everyone after you read these pages and find that you are sorely mistaken about what oral surgeons can and cannot do.

For example, you seem to think that OMFS aren't trained to administer anesthesia or manage codes...Please refer to Anesthesia - Section 4-9, PP. 25-26

Can someone please translate??? I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt and so I assume it's just me who's having a hard time understanding what's being said. I speak english and want to know if there is someone here who speaks......well whatever BBGUN speaks.

Maybe it's because I didn't go to Harvard???

Man, cut the guy some slack. He went to Harvard afterall...you know he has no hand skills. Can barely type a couple words, much less a complete sentence.

I'm ready to urinate in my pants! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Oh crap! Did your patient code and the anesthesiologist go on break?

I got a PM too, but it didn't really make any more sense. I'm not sure why he's hiding now. Maybe you guys can help decipher:

"I can feel every pore in your body oozing jealousiness.It is human to be like that,and american board of oral an maxillofacial surgeons is the parent body.Dint feel like putting it out in the open ,thus demeaning your intelligence.
And ,if you dont know where harvard is,this might just realate to your life"Little knowledge is dangerous".
Sorry,if I sound arrogant .Have to step up and be like that in this worl d.You know what I am talking about.But,I retreat and will give you the benefit of being unwise." --BBGUN

I guess the poor guy couldn't take the heat publicly anymore, and had to get his last word in private. Unbelievable...

I've seen and heard some ridiculous things from Harvard guys, but this guy seems a little too bizarre to actually be one of them. I'm seriously doubting that this guy has finished dental school, much less started a GPR. If he's already starting his second GPR year, how many more are in store for him? I'd have to venture a guess of three or four?

This is just basic info on the MD option.

Look at the program as some only go a couple years, others do 3 and some a bit more. We do 1 partial ,2,3 and part of 4th here.

1st. 4 year guys are just as well trained in OMFS as 6 year guys, even more so in certain aspects of OMFS, as they typically spend more than the 30 months on service required by the ADA; most 6 year progams only have time for 30 months on OMFS. With that said, the 6 year guys usually have a better grasp of medical knowledge and how to apply it...please do not argue 4 year guys it is not a matter of intelligence here just the facts of spending more time in the classroom and on rotations as a medical student. The choice to do a 6 year program has to do with your personal goals nothing more.

However, According to JOMS, MD trained OMFS have more privilages in hospitals for procedures. This is just a fact and has to do with licensing boards at hospitals, not skill levels. You must have the DDS with a license to get sedation privilages in all states unless you are a gas passer (aesthesiologst) so this is a mute point. In general those pursuing MDs usually THINK they prefer hospital settings as career choices (much less pay, more hours, but bigger cases) but this not always the case.

Hope this helps.

P.S. When I was in dental school I thought it was ok for perio or a GD to get IV sed certified. After spending some time on anesthsia, doing a few hundred sedations, and seeing what can go wrong, I no longer feel this is in the pt's best interest. OMFS guys have required training in anesthesia and perform more sedations during residency alone than most perio/GD will do in a lifetime so they usually have a great grasp of how to manage emergencies...think about it a second. As well, OMFS are the only dental specialty with hospital admitting privilages which means they have the needed education to preoperatively evaulate a patient prior to sedation...believe me, know who can safely undergo sedation is more important than knowing how to push drugs.

Training, whether in a 4-year or 6-year program, depends a lot on the program itself rather than its duration. Some programs are very dentoalveolar-heavy, others are orthognathic-heavy, while others are pathology/cancer-heavy. Every resident, whether in a 4-year or 6-year program, is going to be trained more thoroughly in some areas than others, however all will (or should) have a minimum amount of training in all the required disciplines. On top of that, you should be aware that some 6-year programs have some 4-year residents filling-in for drop-outs. It happens. Do you think that the 4-year chief resident is going to be better trained than his 6-year cohort?





Look at the program as some only go a couple years, others do 3 and some a bit more. We do 1 partial ,2,3 and part of 4th here.

1st. 4 year guys are just as well trained in OMFS as 6 year guys, even more so in certain aspects of OMFS, as they typically spend more than the 30 months on service required by the ADA; most 6 year progams only have time for 30 months on OMFS. With that said, the 6 year guys usually have a better grasp of medical knowledge and how to apply it...please do not argue 4 year guys it is not a matter of intelligence here just the facts of spending more time in the classroom and on rotations as a medical student. The choice to do a 6 year program has to do with your personal goals nothing more.

However, According to JOMS, MD trained OMFS have more privilages in hospitals for procedures. This is just a fact and has to do with licensing boards at hospitals, not skill levels. You must have the DDS with a license to get sedation privilages in all states unless you are a gas passer (aesthesiologst) so this is a mute point. In general those pursuing MDs usually THINK they prefer hospital settings as career choices (much less pay, more hours, but bigger cases) but this not always the case.

Hope this helps.

P.S. When I was in dental school I thought it was ok for perio or a GD to get IV sed certified. After spending some time on anesthsia, doing a few hundred sedations, and seeing what can go wrong, I no longer feel this is in the pt's best interest. OMFS guys have required training in anesthesia and perform more sedations during residency alone than most perio/GD will do in a lifetime so they usually have a great grasp of how to manage emergencies...think about it a second. As well, OMFS are the only dental specialty with hospital admitting privilages which means they have the needed education to preoperatively evaulate a patient prior to sedation...believe me, know who can safely undergo sedation is more important than knowing how to push drugs.[/QUOTE]

I ma yet to come across a omfs with or without MD who could make it into a medical fellowship,principally plastics.Infact check out this website safeplasticsurgery.org.
.


That website was whacked. What the hell is with the colour coded alert system? It's like a homeland security advisory... Better send in the troops, those uppity dentists are at it again...

Seriously, some of the states it had listed as 'safe' were states that Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeons are the most heavily into cosmetic or aesthetic surgery... Texas... Minnesota...

Amusing, the deliberate use of the term 'dental surgeon' instead of Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeon. In which case, I would agree with them. A Doctor of Dental Surgery (DDS) without any postgraduate training does not have the skills to perform most aesthetic surgery procedures.

I think we as a specialty should make a foray into butthol bleaching. I hear the money is huge... Come in for your wizzies, get your anus whitened at the same time, all whilst aslumber in a twilight sleep...

Sheesh.

Strength and Honour.

sounds like the consenses is in on BBGUN. I'm a 3rd year dental student applying for OMFS. any suggestions for research, externships...

any sources that tell you what kind of stats are needed for the 6yr and 4yr programs. what type of NDBE and GPA are needed for each?

any sources that tell you what kind of stats are needed for the 6yr and 4yr programs. what type of NDBE and GPA are needed for each?

Do a search. The stats are the same either way...get over a 90 on boards, top 10% class rank and you will probably get a spot as long as you don't botch your interviews.

You must have the DDS with a license to get sedation privilages in all states unless you are a gas passer (aesthesiologst) so this is a mute point.

Or.......you can be a reject and obtain a DMD.

Do a search. The stats are the same either way...get over a 90 on boards, top 10% class rank and you will probably get a spot as long as you don't botch your interviews.

Ha, I'll try not to piss'em off. I'm getting diff #'s from diff schools. do u know of a site that compares the programs? It seems like a vague process.

Any insight would be appreciated.

The requirements are vague because your competition is whoever else applies, and it differs every year. The answer is just do your best and see what happens.