is physical therapist considered a doctor

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Linda_00

New Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
hi all..I graduated from my high school.since 2 years ago..and now I wanna go back to learning and schools ....but i'm woundering is a physical therapist counted as a doctor , since they own their clinics ,,..my gpa was 3.6 at highschool ..I love to have a high pay with a great title job , like doctors , but i dont want to spend alot of time studying , friends told me about the physical therapy..so what you guys think?


:luck: LiNdA :luck:

Members don't see this ad.
 
nope. a PT is just that, a PT. the only "doctors" are people who's degree has the name doctor in it... MD, DO, PhD, PsyD, etc.
 
Linda_00 said:
hi all..I graduated from my high school.since 2 years ago..and now I wanna go back to learning and schools ....but i'm woundering is a physical therapist counted as a doctor , since they own their clinics ,,..my gpa was 3.6 at highschool ..I love to have a high pay with a great title job , like doctors , but i dont want to spend alot of time studying , friends told me about the physical therapy..so what you guys think?


:luck: LiNdA :luck:
I guess it all depends on what you mean by "doctor." I'm assuming you mean physician, so the answer to your question would be no. Physical therapists and physicians are two seperate professions with different responsibilities. You can get a doctorate in physical therapy, but I don't even think that the people with these degrees go around calling themselves doctor because to the average person, doctor=physician in a clinical setting.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Meg-

I'm an OT; no flames from me here - I think your post was great.

There is a "colorful dialogue" going on in the PT world about the doctorate - many (maybe better to say 'most') PT schools are have moved, are moving or will move their programs to offer a DPT to graduates. So, their degree will indeed be "Doctor of Physical Therapy". Among several other issues is the one Meg mentioned about confusion to the general public about the Doctor PT and the related perception of such. Only the future will tell us how this shakes out.

If one is looking into PT school now, chances are you'll be able to look at schools that can grant you a DPT. Please note that you will be spending 5 or 6 years in school, and that there will be intense studying; I cannot comment on how much or how different it is as compared to medical schools, but I can assure you that few find their way through Gross Anatomy and Neuro without at least moderately intense studying. The pay in my area (upstate NY) is around $40K-50K starting up to the mid 70's if you work for someone else; maybe you'll get into the six-figures if you work like a dog and have your own clinic, and if you have great referral sources. The debt load for new DPTs is fairly high, but many hospitals in my area are offering tuition payback/assistance for time worked, and that is a great gig if you can get it. The job market is currently very good, but can wax and wane with Medicare changes (like the 1999 BBA and the Medicare B therapy caps).

Good luck in whatever you do.

dc
 
Linda_00 said:
hi all..I graduated from my high school.since 2 years ago..and now I wanna go back to learning and schools ....but i'm woundering is a physical therapist counted as a doctor , since they own their clinics ,,..my gpa was 3.6 at highschool ..I love to have a high pay with a great title job , like doctors , but i dont want to spend alot of time studying , friends told me about the physical therapy..so what you guys think?


:luck: LiNdA :luck:
also...you don't sound like you want too much schooling. I believe it now takes 6 years for a basic PT degree. A bachelors (4yrs) plus 2 yr PT program.
 
PT's are "not" doctors, nor are they considered "providers" either. However, there is a big push amongst PT's to achieve the doctorate level and establish "Direct Access". This means PT's would be able to open clinics and do not need a referral (i.e.-Assess patients and order PT on their own). However... this is several years off (At least 5), and may or may not come to fruition as the medical model will take much longer to adapt to this new concept. Afterall, who writes referrals to PT's anyways? Ortho docs, Primary Care docs with sports med training, etc. Not something that will change overnight, or necessarily ever for that matter.
 
"Insurance companies and Medicare/Medicaid need a physician referral to make sure it's a "necessary" service." - WE HAVE A HAIR-SPLITTER HERE, FOLKS. "Provider"-as in the sense of not the restricted, narrow field of musculoskeletal care alone. "Provider" - as in the way most people consider an NP, PA, or Doc; not a "Therapist". "THAT" was the original "intent" of the first post, and "THAT" is what I was referring to.
 
Megboo said:
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. PTs are considered providers in all 50 states, but are not considered "primary care" like a physician. Anyone can go to a PT without a referral and pay privately. Insurance companies and Medicare/Medicaid need a physician referral to make sure it's a "necessary" service. There is a push in all allied health fields for clinical doctorates to help increase their autonomy. I am an independent SLP and contract my services to the Early Intervention program in Illinois. I work with many PTs and OTs as well. If a child qualifies for EI services, paid by the state, then a physician referral is required, and I have never come across a physician who denied it. However, if someone came to me with a speech-language issue and wanted private therapy, I wouldn't need a physician referral, same for OT/PT.

By the way, are you a PT? How did you come to your conclusion?

Meg

I am a PT and to split hairs, there are 37 states with some type of direct access provided for in the state practice acts. most have a set time limit during which it is LEGAL for a PT to evaluate and treat an individual. It does not happen all that often right now as one of the earlier posters suggested but that is because of the policies of the third party payers. The Medicare direct access bill that is now in congress with many cosponsors would allow medicare patients direct access to PT. That in turn, the PT community believes, will encourage other payors to follow suit, lending more autonomy to the PT profession. I used to work in KC and in Kansas there is direct access for evaluation but not treatment, in Missouri, there was (I think) a 21 or 30 day window where it was legal to eval and treat.
 
Reality Check: "It does not happen all that often right now as one of the earlier posters suggested but that is because of the policies of the third party payers"....That'll take time (Time time time...) as well as a cultural shift in the medical community required to make it happen (Remember "referrals"?). PT resentment regarding lack of current autonomy will only slow that cultural shift down. More relevantly, if you're shooting for a DrPT, why not just 'do it' and be asports medicine doc? Read the original post for yourself -"I love to have a high pay with a great title job , like doctors , but i dont want to spend alot of time studying". The DrPT thang totally (TOTALLY) defeats that guys purpose...
 
rooster said:
Here's the solution for Linda- :rolleyes:

- No Studies
- No Admissions
- No Attendance
- 7 days
- $249
- Great title(Dr.)


http://www.belforduniversity.org/university/doctorateprogram.asp?mcid=4#4

Rooster,

For once you and I agree :thumbup: :p

BUT, it will cost her $498; after all, in order to cover all of her bases she should get the doctorates in both medicine and "chiro-cranial therapy" (both listed on the site)!

At first I laughed out loud at the link. Now I'm kind of scared. Did you see that they send both transcripts and verification letters? WTF!

- H
 
Nope, just answering the post. 2 years to practice medicine vs Doctorate for therapy, it's a no-brainer. Read it again yourself....."I love to have a high pay with a great title job , like doctors , but i dont want to spend alot of time studying ".........
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Cranial work is the domain of osteopaths. Oh well, I am sure someone must have alerted them, and they will have it corrected shortly.
 
:) ................................
 
FoughtFyr said:
BUT, it will cost her $498; after all, in order to cover all of her bases she should get the doctorates in both medicine and "chiro-cranial therapy" (both listed on the site)!
Hey! For an additional $150 you can graduate Summa Cum Laude.
Now how much are they charging for residency? Will my MSIII year count for the "life experience"? :rolleyes:
 
FoughtFyr said:
Rooster,

For once you and I agree :thumbup: :p

BUT, it will cost her $498; after all, in order to cover all of her bases she should get the doctorates in both medicine and "chiro-cranial therapy" (both listed on the site)!

At first I laughed out loud at the link. Now I'm kind of scared. Did you see that they send both transcripts and verification letters? WTF!

- H

Sigh! I guess Osteopathic Medicine or Osteopathy isn't even respectful enough for this "school accredited by the International Accreditation Agency for Online Universities" to offer for purchase. :thumbdown: Guess you can't get life-experience w/ osteopathy in general, only with cranial :D


Have you read the testimonials - it's kinda funny :)

Now the question - if you were an employer and you see on someone's resume degrees from this school - will you invite them for an interview just for the heck of it?
 
K..............Sure.........I learned about my profession "IN SCHOOL". I read quite often to keep up in my field, but I do "not" need a doctorate to read on my own (Nor does anyone else for that matter, it's plain overkill...). Lets cut the "C&%P". It's obvious the original poster does not want doctoral training to be a therapist.
 
As a person who has a great deal of respect for the physical therapy profession and also understands what a "doctorate" really is, I have to say that the DPT isn't a "real" doctoring level degree. No morphing has taken place when you analyze the BSPT all the way to the DPT. The education has always been a three year program, it’s that the program used to be offered over three of four years of undergraduate training and now they require a BS/BA before you start your 3 year "doctorate" program. The thing really is a scheme that the APTA has MANDATED in order to apply a little political leverage and fight for an ever expanding piece of the manual therapy pie. The DPT has little to do with education and a lot to do with reimbursement, autonomy, direct access, and respect. The material that is taught in a PT program hasn't changed.

Take a look at all the people that actually believe that it is a doctoring profession on this forum. This is why the ATPA mandated it - Because people will buy into it. Education has to be one of the easiest things to sell these days. Unfortunately, the clinical doctorates are simply a facade.
 
lawguil said:
As a person who has a great deal of respect for the physical therapy profession and also understands what a "doctorate" really is, I have to say that the DPT isn't a "real" doctoring level degree. No morphing has taken place when you analyze the BSPT all the way to the DPT. The education has always been a three year program, it’s that the program used to be offered over three of four years of undergraduate training and now they require a BS/BA before you start your 3 year "doctorate" program. The thing really is a scheme that the APTA has MANDATED in order to apply a little political leverage and fight for an ever expanding piece of the manual therapy pie. The DPT has little to do with education and a lot to do with reimbursement, autonomy, direct access, and respect. The material that is taught in a PT program hasn't changed.

Take a look at all the people that actually believe that it is a doctoring profession on this forum. This is why the ATPA mandated it - Because people will buy into it. Education has to be one of the easiest things to sell these days. Unfortunately, the clinical doctorates are simply a facade.

I am really not trying to be argumentative, but what exactly establishes a profession as a "clinical doctoring" profession? Are ODs a doctoring profession? Are clinical psychologists? are Naturopaths?

The point about PT school being the same as it was when it was all certificate and BS programs is just not true. I graduated from PT school in 1991 and replaced a guy who graduated in 1966. The department that I inherited did not even have the charge for an evaluation on the books (indicating that he didn't do them, just did what the doctor told him to do)

The expansion of the education required does, in fact add to the scope of knowledge a PT has when he/she graduates and begins practice. If you think about the courses that make up actually the technical teaching of physical therapy, they were interspersed with the general education requirements over 4 years. Pretty diluted. With the master's programs the same number of credit hours are required to get a bachelor's first but most of that is prerequisite science, math, stats, etc . . . BEFORE the PT program begins. This translates to better scientific bases for the new PT student to learn and advance the profession with EBP. Now, with the DPT programs, there is yet more education regarding pharmacology (not that we can or want to prescribe meds but it helps us predict patient's responses to treatments) and radiology (again, we can't order imaging but it often comes down to the PT to explain the reports in terms that the patient can understand). We also learn a bit more about the different responses to health care professionals from people of different cultures. These are generalities but there really is more information being taught. the guy that I replaced did hot packs, ultrasound, and massage to everything. I think what you may be having a problem with is the rapid transition from BS to MS to DPT and I can see your frustration but I think in the mid 80's and after, the quality of the profession took a quantum leap forward and the degrees really didn't keep up. Now they are.

I don't know what qualifies as clinically doctoring profession, I only know that my doctors that I work with don't know nearly as much about NMS evaluation as I do and they know that too. Its not a power thing at all, just the nature of our training. I don't know beans about respiratory alkalosis and how to treat it.(I used to be able to explain it but can't anymore) I know that the only real doctors are the ones with DO and MD after their names and I think that there aren't many PTs who don't think that way, but most real docs also respect the vastly more complex knowledge of the PT with regard to function and assessment, and return to function.
 
After six months of research, and almost nine years of working experience, I applied for your life experience degree. I am now teaching full-time at a community college; a job I could not have gotten without my doctorate degree.”

Tera Jacob
Doctorate Degree,
Early Childhood Education

Okay, that's just scary. And we wonder why education has been so poor for college students.

As far as lawguil's comments on clinical doctorates, they are true. It is all political. However, medicine did it first. In much of the world it is a bachelor's degree as well. I guess what's good for the goose...
 
Unfortunately, this degree inflation thing is endemic in the Mid-Level professions as well. At a fundamental level, programs have not really changed. I imagine I would focus intensely on selected examples to rationalize extra years of my life and out-of-pocket expense as well. It must be frustrating...
 
DPTATC said:
I am really not trying to be argumentative, but what exactly establishes a profession as a "clinical doctoring" profession? Are ODs a doctoring profession? Are clinical psychologists? are Naturopaths?

The point about PT school being the same as it was when it was all certificate and BS programs is just not true. I graduated from PT school in 1991 and replaced a guy who graduated in 1966. The department that I inherited did not even have the charge for an evaluation on the books (indicating that he didn't do them, just did what the doctor told him to do)

The expansion of the education required does, in fact add to the scope of knowledge a PT has when he/she graduates and begins practice. If you think about the courses that make up actually the technical teaching of physical therapy, they were interspersed with the general education requirements over 4 years. Pretty diluted. With the master's programs the same number of credit hours are required to get a bachelor's first but most of that is prerequisite science, math, stats, etc . . . BEFORE the PT program begins. This translates to better scientific bases for the new PT student to learn and advance the profession with EBP. Now, with the DPT programs, there is yet more education regarding pharmacology (not that we can or want to prescribe meds but it helps us predict patient's responses to treatments) and radiology (again, we can't order imaging but it often comes down to the PT to explain the reports in terms that the patient can understand). We also learn a bit more about the different responses to health care professionals from people of different cultures. These are generalities but there really is more information being taught. the guy that I replaced did hot packs, ultrasound, and massage to everything. I think what you may be having a problem with is the rapid transition from BS to MS to DPT and I can see your frustration but I think in the mid 80's and after, the quality of the profession took a quantum leap forward and the degrees really didn't keep up. Now they are.

I don't know what qualifies as clinically doctoring profession, I only know that my doctors that I work with don't know nearly as much about NMS evaluation as I do and they know that too. Its not a power thing at all, just the nature of our training. I don't know beans about respiratory alkalosis and how to treat it.(I used to be able to explain it but can't anymore) I know that the only real doctors are the ones with DO and MD after their names and I think that there aren't many PTs who don't think that way, but most real docs also respect the vastly more complex knowledge of the PT with regard to function and assessment, and return to function.


The subtle changes that you describe could and would have been changes that occurred in a BS program if it still existed. Where I work, we have an athletic training program (BS-level). Three/four years ago we added additional courses in pharmacology and radiology for AT students. In fact we added the courses to the DPT program when we transitioned to the DPT last year. You don't add 6 credits and suddenly have a doctorate degree. The educational standards in every profession continually change and become more rigorous and/or adapt to the provisions of a field, however the APTA has done a poor job of this. Why don't they mandate CME/CEU's at the national level? The DPT is truly a second bachelor’s degree for a student. It’s like going to school and earning a BS/BA, then going back to school to earn another BS. It isn't doctorate level education nor is any other clinical doctorate. Show me valid research that shows that the undergraduate BSPT education was inadequate. When the APTA mandated a MSPT, most schools offered it in a five year masters program (go an extra year and we'll GIVE a student a masters). How is that a masters degree? Now we have the DPT which still takes three years to complete!

Unfortunately big business is winning the game, even in education. There is no "clinical doctorate” or "clinical masters" that is going to win over the approval of a tenure-track faculty member in higher education with the exception of the MD/DO. Cheers!
 
Top