Reading some of the threads in the allo. and medical boards, it seems that carrib. grads are looked down upon more than true FMGs (born/raised and went to their own countries med schools) in applying to residencies and in practice. Have any of you carrib. grads noticed this? Is this an exageration?

It is true, but that is the medical profession in general.

American/Canadian med students look down on Caribbean med students.

4th year med students look down on 3rd year.

Interns look down on 4th year

Residents look down on Interns

Attendings look down on residents

Fellows look down on attendings...

etc etc ad nauseum...

Caribbean grads will be MDs just like everyone else and at that point, it is only as important as you make it out to be.

x

I find that one should be careful in generalizing. But there's both advantages and disadvantages for a US (Carib) FMG and a non-citizen IMG:
Carib FMG
Pros: US-emulated educational system; geared towards aceing the USMLE.
Cons: With rare exceptions, Carib grads are people who tried unsuccesfully to get into a US school. That they were rejected obviously doesn't make them bad docs, but some PDs might frawn upon it.
Non-citizen IMG:
Pros: Graduates from a top school in their native country, say Oxford/Cambridge/Imperial/Karolinska etc. can get a education on a par with some of the best US schools, and might leverage alumni connections or otherwise stand out.
Cons: Not geared towards USMLE tests; educational details not necessarily known by PDs; can be less of a known entity to hospitals; possible language problems; visa issues.

Overall, I'd say that a recent grad. would have better chances as a US citizen coming out of a Carib school than a foreign national coming out of a native school. More experienced/research oriented grads however, could possibly set themselves out more, and get a choice residency...

Residencies will snap up the talented Carribean grads from schools like SGU because they have rotated in the U.S. Generally a Caribbean grad from the top three will have an easier time matching than another FMG.

It is true, but that is the medical profession in general.

American/Canadian med students look down on Caribbean med students.

4th year med students look down on 3rd year.

Interns look down on 4th year

Residents look down on Interns

Attendings look down on residents

Fellows look down on attendings...

etc etc ad nauseum...

Caribbean grads will be MDs just like everyone else and at that point, it is only as important as you make it out to be.

Thats true. I ve met many docs in prestigious positions who kinda envy the undergrads and med students bc many of them actually have real lives (fully equipped with friends, girlfriends, and free time) bc many of them didn't have a life bc they spent it all in the library. So its an endless cycle. The grass is always greener.

Thats true. I ve met many docs in prestigious positions who kinda envy the undergrads and med students bc many of them actually have real lives (fully equipped with friends, girlfriends, and free time) bc many of them didn't have a life bc they spent it all in the library. So its an endless cycle. The grass is always greener.

The name is "doctors haters." :)
I wonder why that attitude??
We are not responsible for what they did or did not do anyway.
It's just a way to make us feel like nothing.

I find that one should be careful in generalizing. But there's both advantages and disadvantages for a US (Carib) FMG and a non-citizen IMG:
Carib FMG
Pros: US-emulated educational system; geared towards aceing the USMLE.
Cons: With rare exceptions, Carib grads are people who tried unsuccesfully to get into a US school. That they were rejected obviously doesn't make them bad docs, but some PDs might frawn upon it.
Non-citizen IMG:
Pros: Graduates from a top school in their native country, say Oxford/Cambridge/Imperial/Karolinska etc. can get a education on a par with some of the best US schools, and might leverage alumni connections or otherwise stand out.
Cons: Not geared towards USMLE tests; educational details not necessarily known by PDs; can be less of a known entity to hospitals; possible language problems; visa issues.

Overall, I'd say that a recent grad. would have better chances as a US citizen coming out of a Carib school than a foreign national coming out of a native school. More experienced/research oriented grads however, could possibly set themselves out more, and get a choice residency...

Another pro/con:
US citizens that go to the Caribbean don't have to worry about visa issues and might be more attractive to programs that don't want to deal with visa issues or aren't equipped to deal with visa issues.

Just like in any other aspect of life there are people out there who look down their nose at others, including students from the Carribean. But as an ER resident who went to St. George's I can assure you there are just as many who do not, probably many more.

Medicine, for some weird reason, is percieved by those within it to be more competitive than other professions or other ways of life. I find this so rediculous that it makes me laugh at times. I was in a completely other realm when I decided to go to med school at 40 years old, and I can assure you that realm was every bit as competitive, and cut throat as anything I've seen in medical school. The difference is the lack of self righteous attitude that one's **** don't stink in many other lines of work. I have never seen such arrogance and need for one-upsmanship that I've seen in the medical profession, starting from pre-med on up. It's learned behavior, passed down from one disfunctional moron to the next. These are the ones who look down their noses. Ignore them, they do not matter. Only envy of them puts you in a position of feeling belittled.

So, going to a Carribean school, especially St. George's, and doing well there, will get you any where you want to go if you want it more than anything else. That's the key, the only key. If you do ok, get by, slip through, you'll still be a doctor. But you may find you're still envious of those you feel are looking down at you. That's of your own making.

Just like in any other aspect of life there are people out there who look down their nose at others, including students from the Carribean. But as an ER resident who went to St. George's I can assure you there are just as many who do not, probably many more.

Medicine, for some weird reason, is percieved by those within it to be more competitive than other professions or other ways of life. I find this so rediculous that it makes me laugh at times. I was in a completely other realm when I decided to go to med school at 40 years old, and I can assure you that realm was every bit as competitive, and cut throat as anything I've seen in medical school. The difference is the lack of self righteous attitude that one's **** don't stink in many other lines of work. I have never seen such arrogance and need for one-upsmanship that I've seen in the medical profession, starting from pre-med on up. It's learned behavior, passed down from one disfunctional moron to the next. These are the ones who look down their noses. Ignore them, they do not matter. Only envy of them puts you in a position of feeling belittled.

So, going to a Carribean school, especially St. George's, and doing well there, will get you any where you want to go if you want it more than anything else. That's the key, the only key. If you do ok, get by, slip through, you'll still be a doctor. But you may find you're still envious of those you feel are looking down at you. That's of your own making.

AMEN! And I'm a US grad - but I'm non traditional (33 yo previous nurse) so guess what, add yet ANOTHER group that are looked down on it just doesn't end. And it is pretentious, and its wrong. Some of the best docs I worked with went to Ross, or SGU, and I really don't care you know why? They were able to teach me a bunch of stuff I didn't know and a lot of times even better than Dr.Impressive from Yale who has a personality worth .0000001 cents ;)

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK AND CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR DEVOTION TO MEDICINE PEOPLE!

I could not have put it better myself.



Just like in any other aspect of life there are people out there who look down their nose at others, including students from the Carribean. But as an ER resident who went to St. George's I can assure you there are just as many who do not, probably many more.

Medicine, for some weird reason, is percieved by those within it to be more competitive than other professions or other ways of life. I find this so rediculous that it makes me laugh at times. I was in a completely other realm when I decided to go to med school at 40 years old, and I can assure you that realm was every bit as competitive, and cut throat as anything I've seen in medical school. The difference is the lack of self righteous attitude that one's **** don't stink in many other lines of work. I have never seen such arrogance and need for one-upsmanship that I've seen in the medical profession, starting from pre-med on up. It's learned behavior, passed down from one disfunctional moron to the next. These are the ones who look down their noses. Ignore them, they do not matter. Only envy of them puts you in a position of feeling belittled.

So, going to a Carribean school, especially St. George's, and doing well there, will get you any where you want to go if you want it more than anything else. That's the key, the only key. If you do ok, get by, slip through, you'll still be a doctor. But you may find you're still envious of those you feel are looking down at you. That's of your own making.

09-13-2005, 01:55 PM #1
NRAI2001
Registered User
2000+ Posts


Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uc berkeley
Carrib. grads looked down upon more than other FMGs? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reading some of the threads in the allo. and medical boards, it seems that carrib. grads are looked down upon more than true FMGs (born/raised and went to their own countries med schools) in applying to residencies and in practice. Have any of you carrib. grads noticed this? Is this an exageration?




not true at all.

if you look like an american, act like an american, talk like an american, smell like an american.......and are an american then you are miles ahead of a foreign person, unless you are in queens NY where english speakers are a minority.

having people look down on you is really not something that happens considering 28% of US physicians are FMG's, and with so many foreigners running around, people usually automatically assume that an american is an american graduate. 99% of people never ask or figure out you are not a US grad.
what matters most of all is how you do your job and the respect you earn from the staff ( other MD's and the nursing staff.....and your patients )
like many other professions, respect is earned. you may start out lower on the theoretical totem pole than your US grad colleague, but trust me : after a few weeks the best people are the ones that get the respect, no matter where they went to medical school. it flat out does not matter 99% of the time.
where you are lible to encounter bias is with NON-medical people like hairdressers, insurance salesmen, bartenders , valet parking attendants........people that you might meet socially that are doing nothing jobs , that might think you are substandard since you attended a caribbean school. I get a crack out of the dude that works as a lawnmower that wants to give us crap for where we went to medical school. Classic !

not true at all.

if you look like an american, act like an american, talk like an american, smell like an american.......and are an american then you are miles ahead of a foreign person, unless you are in queens NY where english speakers are a minority.

having people look down on you is really not something that happens considering 28% of US physicians are FMG's, and with so many foreigners running around, people usually automatically assume that an american is an american graduate. 99% of people never ask or figure out you are not a US grad.
what matters most of all is how you do your job and the respect you earn from the staff ( other MD's and the nursing staff.....and your patients )
like many other professions, respect is earned. you may start out lower on the theoretical totem pole than your US grad colleague, but trust me : after a few weeks the best people are the ones that get the respect, no matter where they went to medical school. it flat out does not matter 99% of the time.
where you are lible to encounter bias is with NON-medical people like hairdressers, insurance salesmen, bartenders , valet parking attendants........people that you might meet socially that are doing nothing jobs , that might think you are substandard since you attended a caribbean school. I get a crack out of the dude that works as a lawnmower that wants to give us crap for where we went to medical school. Classic !


lol! :laugh: That's great. I've run into the same thing. Usually when I'm asked what med school I attend by hospital staff or other students I'm met with enthusiam and a story of a "great Ross student" the person has met. But non-medical people will 99% of the time look down on me with a "oh, a caribbean school" look. I used to want to beat the s**t outta them but now I just laugh.

Pros: US-emulated educational system; geared towards aceing the USMLE.


Is that why IMG's take 3 to 6 months of additional prep time when compared to U.S. students?

This is extremely misleading. IMG's spend anywhere from 3-12 months (post MS2) preparing for the USMLE. That is a significant advantage over an American grad who usually has 6-8 weeks to prepare for the same test. To suggest that foreign schools gear their students to "aceing the USMLE" is misleading.

not true at all.

if you look like an american, act like an american, talk like an american, smell like an american.......and are an american then you are miles ahead of a foreign person, unless you are in queens NY where english speakers are a minority.

It really depends on the situation. For example, a program director of a dermatology program is more likely to accept a foreign national who was a practicing dermatologist in his or her country for several years or a dermatology resident than a U.S. citizen who graduated from Ross or another foreign school. Assuming of course that this foreign national had competitive board scores for derm (250+ on Step I) and good communication skills, he or she would have an advantage over you. Most of the IMG's who match into one of these insanely competitive fields are foreign nationals with this type of background. For example, I personally know an IMG who matched ortho in this country. He was a well known orthopedic surgeon in Germany who decided he wanted to move to this country.

I see your point too. In general, PD's are more likely to accept U.S. citizens than foreign nationals because they have better communication skills, already adjusted to life in the United States and are familiar with clinical medicine in the United States. But I think this applies to fields that are not very competitive such as primary care fields which accounts for most of the positions filled by FMG's each year.


where you are lible to encounter bias is with NON-medical people like hairdressers, insurance salesmen, bartenders , valet parking attendants........people that you might meet socially that are doing nothing jobs , that might think you are substandard since you attended a caribbean school. I get a crack out of the dude that works as a lawnmower that wants to give us crap for where we went to medical school. Classic !

You have it completely backwards. Your hairdresser, bartender, insurance salesman etc. will only care about what type of doctor you are and the type of money you are making. They don't know the difference between Ross and Rush but they do know the difference between a Family Practice doctor or "general practioner" as they would put it and a plastic surgeon. Hell, your hairdresser might even think you were cool for being able to study in the tropics. The "common" folk only care what type of car you drive, how big your house is, what type of physician you are, and if you are popular or well known in the community. In their eyes, the doctor with the 5000 square foot home and the Benz in the driveway is more intelligent and successfull than the U.S. grad with a FP clinic in the strip mall next to Subway who went to Duke. Your gardener will never ask you what you got on Step I or if you were a first author on a research paper. Your realtor won't care if you got a 21 on the MCAT. The hot bartender at the most exclusive club in the city will prefer your SABA educated ass and cardiology training over your U.S. educated friend who is an endocrinologist and earns half of what you make each year.

The only ones who will impose any sort of bias are your colleagues who graduated from U.S. schools because they will know you were the guy who couldn't get into a stateside medical school. They won't say anything to your face but they will think they are better than you: "Who is Bob? Oh yeah, he is the FMG" Physicians are competitive and ego-driven by nature which is why they will use whatever competitive advantage they can have over you. This is why program directors still adhere to these biases despite the fact that many IMG's and DO's outscore U.S. graduates on Step I. This is why DO's are discriminated against as well because U.S. grads are aware it's easier gaining acceptance into a DO school versus an allopathic school.

lol! :laugh: That's great. I've run into the same thing. Usually when I'm asked what med school I attend by hospital staff or other students I'm met with enthusiam and a story of a "great Ross student" the person has met. But non-medical people will 99% of the time look down on me with a "oh, a caribbean school" look. I used to want to beat the s**t outta them but now I just laugh.

I thought non-medical people wouldnt even really know the difference between carribean schools and US schools? From what i understand its more of your fellow docs and residents that will show you some bias?

.
You have it completely backwards. Your hairdresser, bartender, insurance salesman etc. will only care about what type of doctor you are and the type of money you are making. They don't know the difference between Ross and Rush but they do know the difference between a Family Practice doctor or "general practioner" as they would put it and a plastic surgeon. Hell, your hairdresser might even think you were cool for being able to study in the tropics. The "common" folk only care what type of car you drive, how big your house is, what type of physician you are, and if you are popular or well known in the community. In their eyes, the doctor with the 5000 square foot home and the Benz in the driveway is more intelligent and successfull than the U.S. grad with a FP clinic in the strip mall next to Subway who went to Duke. Your gardener will never ask you what you got on Step I or if you were a first author on a research paper. Your realtor won't care if you got a 21 on the MCAT. The hot bartender at the most exclusive club in the city will prefer your SABA educated ass and cardiology training over your U.S. educated friend who is an endocrinologist and earns half of what you make each year.



Thats true, the public (including your patients) doesnt know the difference. So it may not effect your business much, but you may get less respect from other docs (not substaintally less). But if its your only option for med school take it.

Thats true, the public (including your patients) doesnt know the difference. So it may not effect your business much, but you may get less respect from other docs (not substaintally less). But if its your only option for med school take it.

Honestly who cares what other docs think of you. They aren't paying your bills. If some doctor wants to speak ill of you behind your back, so what. If they lacked the courage to say it to your face, they are obviously intimidated by you to some degree. Your success as a physician will be determined by patients' perception of you and not what some other physicians think. I know some IMG's who are earning well into the 7 figures. Do you think they care what some U.S. graduate thinks of them when they are driving their Porsche.

Honestly who cares what other docs think of you. They aren't paying your bills. If some doctor wants to speak ill of you behind your back, so what. If they lacked the courage to say it to your face, they are obviously intimidated by you to some degree. Your success as a physician will be determined by patients' perception of you and not what some other physicians think. I know some IMG's who are earning well into the 7 figures. Do you think they care what some U.S. graduate thinks of them when they are driving their Porsche.

I never said that anyone should care :thumbup:

I thought non-medical people wouldnt even really know the difference between carribean schools and US schools? From what i understand its more of your fellow docs and residents that will show you some bias?

That hasn't been my experience. The general public will usually ask where Ross is and as soon as I tell them they will get that "look". I've only run into a couple of attendings who treated me poorly based of where I went to school. Maybe I've been lucky, in the hospital, to work with open-minded attendings/residents/US med students. Besides, if you work hard and know your stuff in the hospital no one will care where you went to med school. I've always found (and the attendings and residents confirm) that Carib med students are a lot harder working and less whiney than US med students. No offense. ;)

Maybe I've been lucky, in the hospital, to work with open-minded attendings/residents/US med students. Besides, if you work hard and know your stuff in the hospital no one will care where you went to med school. I've always found (and the attendings and residents confirm) that Carib med students are a lot harder working and less whiney than US med students. No offense. ;)

I'm a DO and I have never been mistreated by any of my allopathic U.S. colleagues. That doesn't mean they support DO's or think of us as being equals. Most people don't vent their true feelings directly to the person. Just something you might want to think about

I agree with you about IMG's being hardworking. Both IMG's and DO's have to work harder than allopathic grads to compensate for any perceived lack of training.

As a DO, my friends and others not in the medical field ask what me what DO stands for. I'm never offended because they are just curious. I don't get the feeling they are trying to put me down. When I tell them that I'm a resident at such and such hospital and my field, any doubts about my training is quickly eliminated. I think you will find the same thing. I would be very suprised if a lay person thought negatively of you simply because you trained overseas. I just find it difficult to believe non-medical people would give you a hard time since that hasn't been my experience and I'm a DO. In fact, when I tell people I'm a DO, I almost always get asked to perform some OMM or that "DO's have less attitude than regular docs." I find myself defending the other side by replying that there are cocky DO's too.

I never said that anyone should care :thumbup:

Actually you did imply that and I agree with Dal that it shouldn't be a negative factor that other physicians might think less of you. The only thing that should weigh your decision into going to a particular medical school is whether you will be happy studying there and will it afford you certain opportunities. You should never attend a school based on how others might perceive you.

I have a good friend who attended AUC. He got into a DO school but went to AUC. I was happy for him. He loved the school and the island which is why he went there. He didn't attend AUC because he wanted some initials; he genuinely loved the school and curriculum. And he is self-motivated and very bright. I know he will be one of the few to match into his field of choice. I was very happy for him. Go where you will be happy. That's what counts.