Dear Ms. DrMaryC,

Thank you for your email. Unfortunately, DO's cannot sit for the surgery
boards and Institution X is not an approved Osteopathic training institute at this time. Therefore, we do not interview DO's. I wish you well in your career choice.

Harry Feltersnatch
Educational Manager
Institution X Surgery Department


This was kind of a kick in the teeth. Especially since this was the fastest turnaround on an email I've ever received. On one hand, he's cutting to the chase, on the other hand, I think his reasoning is bullshyt. Especially since Institution X has plenty of DO residents in all specialties. I emailed him back and called him out, basically. I know it probably won't help my chances at all (granted, I was still polite) but I wasn't going to accept this and just go away.

Someone hold me. :mad:

edit: as I highlighted in the bold statement above, this is the part that makes me laugh. wtf is this supposed to mean "...cannot sit for the surgery boards..." oh that's right. all DO's do FP :rolleyes: :mad:

Harry Feltersnatch


:laugh:
ROLMFAO

I am applying for medicine and rotated at Mt Sinai in the city. One of the more influential doctors took a liking to me and my performance and without my asking went to talk to the PD on my behalf.

After learning abt this meeting I emailed the PD expressing interest and excitement for a possible interview. He shot me down right away - no DO's "due to problems we have had in the past."

I wrote back thanking him for his honesty...Bull ****. There is still a bias in all fields depending on the institution. Just thought I would share.

Chris

depending on the institution.

I thought with medicine you're a shoo-in. Not that it's any comfort, but at least your PD's excuse was truly the reason. I think this schmuck (not even the PD!) is an ignorant ball of fluff who's too afraid to say what your PD said. I hope we go around and around.

and... at another local MD institution, they already invited me for an interview and haven't even downloaded the Dean's letter yet.

These are the consequences of getting a D.O. degree instead of an M.D.

These are the consequences of getting a D.O. degree instead of an M.D.
Then this must change...

Then this must change...

Not likely, the medical establishment is resistent to change. It's more likely that getting an M.D. degree will not compromise your training and career options.

Not likely. It's more likely that getting an M.D. degree will not compromise your options in the future.

Perhaps that's my point as well, and really I should have just put this thread into Pre-Osteopathic. Overall it's frustrating, and a joke, and goes to show that you have no clue what programs or PD's are thinking until you talk to them directly.

Thanks for striking the nerve. Now hold me.

:thumbdown

I am applying for medicine and rotated at Mt Sinai in the city. One of the more influential doctors took a liking to me and my performance and without my asking went to talk to the PD on my behalf.

After learning abt this meeting I emailed the PD expressing interest and excitement for a possible interview. He shot me down right away - no DO's "due to problems we have had in the past."

I wrote back thanking him for his honesty...Bull ****. There is still a bias in all fields depending on the institution. Just thought I would share.

Chris


Hmmm...considering that all residencies are granted by the United States Government (and paid for by....), I would think you should really go talk to a lawyer and stick it to the man on principle...this screams of first class discrimination and the government HATES to be labeled with discrimination.... I smell dollar signs.....damn lawyers...

Unfortunately, DO's cannot sit for the surgery
boards

This isn't true, though, so how can it be used as an excuse to reject DOs? The American Board of Surgery's eligibility requirements state, "Applicants must have graduated from an accredited school of allopathic or osteopathic medicine..." (You can read the ABS full requirements here. (http://home.absurgery.org/xfer/ABS_BookletOfInfo05.pdf))

You know what gets me is that some programs say that they will except COMLEX scores on their website, but tell other people interviewing they do not like to interview DOs? Bad of me to assume that if they say specifically on their website they will accept COMLEX for DOs , that equals them being DO friendly.

Im an MD but I have a question.. Can MDs apply for DO spots? Like if I wanted to do an DO ortho or ophtho or other things like that? It is my understanding that we (MDs) are not allowed to apply to these programs. Is this true? In many ways I think this is total BS but at the same time.. I know programs that wont interview me just because of where I go to med school. I think this bias is silly but i think it pervades more than just the MD vs DO.

Hmmm...considering that all residencies are granted by the United States Government (and paid for by....), I would think you should really go talk to a lawyer and stick it to the man on principle...this screams of first class discrimination and the government HATES to be labeled with discrimination.... I smell dollar signs.....damn lawyers...

Yup, this discrimination is illegal and you can sue.

Im an MD but I have a question.. Can MDs apply for DO spots? Like if I wanted to do an DO ortho or ophtho or other things like that? It is my understanding that we (MDs) are not allowed to apply to these programs. Is this true? In many ways I think this is total BS but at the same time.. I know programs that wont interview me just because of where I go to med school. I think this bias is silly but i think it pervades more than just the MD vs DO.
Nope, and this is just one example of dysfunction in the mystical world of the AOA (our governing body).
I asked this question of the president of this fine organization last year. He looked totally incredulous that any DO student would want MDs in osteo spots. This followed what had been a fairly long discussion on the osteo-world's dependence on ACGME residency positions.
My quote "thank god the MD world doesn't feel this way". :o

BTW-I just this Spring recognized that my top two hoped-for EM slots will not interview or even rotate DOs. This was a huge punch in the gut that made me wish I had perhaps thrown a wider net during those app. days. :(

Congrats on your interviews.

You sure about that? Declining to interview DO's, while reprehensible, is probably not a basis for taking this to court. If they somewhere (website, email, brochure, etc etc etc) claim they interview/accept DO's, you may be able to sue for falso advertisement or something lame like that which would only be an excercise in frustration. I'm not a lawyer, by the way.

From the Cornell Law School Website:

"Employment Discrimination laws seek to prevent discrimination based on race, sex, religion, national origin, physical disability, and age by employers."

-X

Yup, this discrimination is illegal and you can sue.

Hmmm...considering that all residencies are granted by the United States Government (and paid for by....), I would think you should really go talk to a lawyer and stick it to the man on principle...this screams of first class discrimination and the government HATES to be labeled with discrimination.... I smell dollar signs.....damn lawyers...

So does that mean MDs can sue to get into DO derm residencies too? Denying us that right is pure discrimation! Why not just put all us MDs in reservations while you are at it, since you are denying us this fundamental freedom! :rolleyes:

The osteo programs/AOA can always stand behind the "our training is significantly different" (i.e. 2 weeks of OMT during internship :rolleyes: ) but unless the AMA or a program says MD-only (which would likely cause a lawsuit), they will always have to say outright "we dont take DO's for X reason". As long as they have a valid reason, there is no basis for a suit. DrMary, that statement is probably false, and it might be grounds to at least call someone and bitch about it or threaten them, just to feel better. Of course it wont help.


As is well documented in another thread, interviews for anesthesia are interesting (and surprisingly competitive this year) and I have received interviews from non-hater programs (U Florida, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, etc.), programs with no DOs (Virginia) and have not heard anything from other programs (Emory, etc.) that have no DOs. I guarantee my degree is costing me interviews, as the rest of my app is pretty spot-on. Make of that what you will, but I have never been as skeptical of the "you can go anywhere and do anything as long as you make the grades and ace the boards". It's simply not completely true. With that said, it is still competitive, I have several interviews at programs I would be thrilled to go to and I will end up somewhere good. I simply cannot imagine what getting into Gen Surg takes if you are a DO.


Food for thought. I would never encourage anyone to not go to DO school based on this info, but we do need to branch out into more specialties and integrate further into the general medical community (i.e. through residency, membership, partnerships, etc.) before we can feel entitled to these spots as candidates on an equal footing with allo grads. As it is, many programs are simply unfamilir with, or have had a negative experience with, DOs.

Based on the fact that DOs dont want MDs in their programs perhaps the PDs are "protecting" their field by doing the same to you. I am applying to EM and I have noticed that at least a few of the PDs are DOs. I would guess these programs are more receptive. I would assume that some fields like Allo Derm, ENT and Rads would be completely off limits to DOs because they are already off limits to 90% of people in MD school. Am i right in this thinking? This whole thing is kind of an interesting topic..

BTW as far as suing my wife is a lawyer and there is NO way in hades you could sue, except for the false advertising bit which would be darn hard to prove and even if you could what would be your damages? you wouldnt get any money so no lawyer would help you. They can say that your training is different or because you went to DO school you arent as qualified. While this might not be true it happens all the time. Look at wall street it is made up of Ivy League grads because of nepotism. Surely someone somewhere is smarter than those guys but couldnt get a job cause he went to some state school is the south or midwest.

Im an MD but I have a question.. Can MDs apply for DO spots? Like if I wanted to do an DO ortho or ophtho or other things like that? It is my understanding that we (MDs) are not allowed to apply to these programs. Is this true? In many ways I think this is total BS but at the same time.. I know programs that wont interview me just because of where I go to med school. I think this bias is silly but i think it pervades more than just the MD vs DO.

I am a DO student and I agree that MDs should be able to compete for DO spots. Unfortunately the old school leadership of the AOA still has a chip on their shoulder from like 40 years ago.

Based on the fact that DOs dont want MDs in their programs perhaps the PDs are "protecting" their field by doing the same to you. I am applying to EM and I have noticed that at least a few of the PDs are DOs. I would guess these programs are more receptive. I would assume that some fields like Allo Derm, ENT and Rads would be completely off limits to DOs because they are already off limits to 90% of people in MD school. Am i right in this thinking? This whole thing is kind of an interesting topic..

BTW as far as suing my wife is a lawyer and there is NO way in hades you could sue, except for the false advertising bit which would be darn hard to prove and even if you could what would be your damages? you wouldnt get any money so no lawyer would help you. They can say that your training is different or because you went to DO school you arent as qualified. While this might not be true it happens all the time. Look at wall street it is made up of Ivy League grads because of nepotism. Surely someone somewhere is smarter than those guys but couldnt get a job cause he went to some state school is the south or midwest.

Not that I think anyone should sue, god the backlash could be devestating to DOs. Anyway the fault in your analogy to Wall street is that the funding for those jobs do not come from the federal government. If anything we should lobby the government to look into this issue as they are supposed to provide oversight of the fair use of these funds.

I am a DO student and I agree that MDs should be able to compete for DO spots. Unfortunately the old school leadership of the AOA still has a chip on their shoulder from like 40 years ago.

If DOs don't let MDs into their residencies why should we let DOs into ours?

Thanks for your guys' attention. I'm not sure why I'm so fired up about this, because I kind of knew that this might happen (the old self-fulfulling prophecy?) But you know, med school and residency and the medical career are a marathon.

When you run a marathon, you prepare knowing you're going to run the 26 miles, and plan your perseverance accordingly. This situation I and many others are in is like the AOA basically saying "go ahead and run your marathon, but you might not reach your goal, or you might. We're not sure."

Here's the guy's response after I questioned further:

"...I don't know what the various departments, such as Family Practice, have for their qualifications. The information I was given came from the Graduate
Medical Education Office here at the hospital and I have to abide by their
policies. Perhaps the USMLE is part of it all, as well as the sitting for
the surgery boards. I honestly don't know. I just wanted to let you know
in advance so that you could arrange for interviews at other programs
accordingly..."

So this is the guy the program has listed on ERAS for contact information. He HONESTLY DOESN'T KNOW!!

I know that I could get back to him and/or the GME office with the facts...maybe I should. Maybe no one else has done it so far.

Fact is, the MD program is ignorant and the DO world has rose-colored sunglasses. I thought the battles were fought and the rules were in place. I guess it's still 1950.

If DOs don't let MDs into their residencies why should we let DOs into ours?

Because MD's aren't trained in OMT.

When you run a marathon, you prepare knowing you're going to run the 26 miles, and plan your perseverance accordingly. This situation I and many others are in is like the AOA basically saying "go ahead and run your marathon, but you might not reach your goal, or you might. We're not sure."

Mary I am really sorry that you have been given such the bum's rush from this guy :(

If you want I will mail him poo and/or sit on him.

Speaking of poo and marathons... I just learned today that it is not unheard of for marathon runners to poo on themselves during a marathon. This is completely new news to me. I had known about the idea of peeing on yourself, which doesn't seem all that great either, but pooing seems rather messy and diaper rash forming.

Because MD's aren't trained in OMT.

Not that I am trying to bash but how often is that Dermatologist or ENT or Surgeon breaking out the OMT? (I dont know the answer to this Q but my gut tells me they dont) Theoretically couldnt we just have MD schools train us in it if it gave us an advantage to get into these competetive fields?

If DOs don't let MDs into their residencies why should we let DOs into ours?

Because allo programs need their FP slots filled. Its a trade off, for sure.

Not that I am trying to bash but how often is that Dermatologist or ENT or Surgeon breaking out the OMT? (I dont know the answer to this Q but my gut tells me they dont) Theoretically couldnt we just have MD schools train us in it if it gave us an advantage to get into these competetive fields?


Yes, I know. I'm not saying they do. I'm just guessing that that's what the DO world says.

And you know, there's good DO programs and bad DO programs, just like there are good MD programs and bad. My bytch is that there seems to be this undertone in the DO world that we can do anything we want, but it's just not true 100% of the time.

I just wanted to interview/apply at this place because it would give me the opportunity to stay in the area, closer to my family. And the fact that I have to pursue surgery without a cut and dried path annoys me.

Trust me, if there's one person who sees the flip side to every coin, it's me. MD's have every right to question why they can't train at DO institutions.

This might start a flame war, but I'm going to say it anyway...

If DOs truly want to be treated like MDs, then they should have gone for an allopathic school. Osteopathic schools are *supposed* to be different; they are supposed to have a different focus, right? But it seems like the DOs graduating now want allopathic and osteopathic degrees to mean the same thing, which they were not meant to do. They are two different degrees.

I think one of the main problems here is that some people (perhaps many) go the DO route because they were not able to go the MD route, not because they actually agree with the DO philosophy, which has a primary care focus.

Just a thought.

This might start a flame war, but I'm going to say it anyway...

If DOs truly want to be treated like MDs, then they should have gone for an allopathic school. Osteopathic schools are *supposed* to be different; they are supposed to have a different focus, right? But it seems like the DOs graduating now want allopathic and osteopathic degrees to mean the same thing, which they were not meant to do. They are two different degrees.

I think one of the main problems here is that some people (perhaps many) go the DO route because they were not able to go the MD route, not because they actually agree with the DO philosophy, which has a primary care focus.

Just a thought.


That's water under the bridge.

Go into any hospital you see DO's and MD's working next to each other, taking care of patients. They just want to get the work done.

But the path to get to this point is convoluted. I don't disagree with you, but I think most, including my self, went to med school to become a physician, not to get wrapped up in bullshyt philosophies.

And the point of this thread is to call out a stuffy little turd in his little office who is supposed to know the facts, and he doesn't. Allopathic meccas aren't all they are cracked up to be.

No hospital is a mecca, whether that is harvard, hopkins etc or bubba's community hospital. These teaching institutions are there to help people sadly the medical field is in such a f'ed up state that the people we have to deal with are completely retarded and often dont know what is going on at their own desk let alone in their department. Part of the problem is many places are run by a monarch (the PD) who just does what he/she wants without asking anyone for any input. During last yrs match I was doing Ob and you know what hit the fan.. One of the people that EVERY (I do mean EVERY) person wanted in the OB residency didnt make it.. She had better board scores than others they took, she was the most liked by the attendings and the residents (who had a lot of input esp the sr residents (who told me the details of this)). In the end this girl decided to rank only 1 place and since the PD decided for some weird reason he didnt want her she didnt match. Sure it was dumb to rank one place but at the same time he made a unilateral decision no one liked and no one knew about either..

Dr Mary.. you are right these people are clueless.. but this is the game we have to play in the medical field.

If DOs truly want to be treated like MDs, then they should have gone for an allopathic school.

True that. You can't expect to be treated like an MD who graduated from a US school when it comes to getting a residency/fellowship when you're trying to get into the profession through the back door.

No hospital is a mecca, whether that is harvard, hopkins etc or bubba's community hospital. These teaching institutions are there to help people sadly the medical field is in such a f'ed up state that the people we have to deal with are completely retarded and often dont know what is going on at their own desk let alone in their department. Part of the problem is many places are run by a monarch (the PD) who just does what he/she wants without asking anyone for any input. During last yrs match I was doing Ob and you know what hit the fan.. One of the people that EVERY (I do mean EVERY) person wanted in the OB residency didnt make it.. She had better board scores than others they took, she was the most liked by the attendings and the residents (who had a lot of input esp the sr residents (who told me the details of this)). In the end this girl decided to rank only 1 place and since the PD decided for some weird reason he didnt want her she didnt match. Sure it was dumb to rank one place but at the same time he made a unilateral decision no one liked and no one knew about either..

Dr Mary.. you are right these people are clueless.. but this is the game we have to play in the medical field.

Yes, the above situation happens at DO hospitals too. Overall applying for residency is kind of a crazy time, huh? I can't wait to be through with this! :)

True that. You can't expect to be treated like an MD who graduated from a US school when it comes to getting a residency/fellowship when you're trying to get into the profession through the back door.

I'm calling you out again, Dire Straits/troll.

I'm calling you out again, Dire Straits/troll.

Whatever, the "troll" defense only goes to show you want to divert attention away from the discussion. Maybe my choice of wording wasn't the most politically correct, but you should not expect to be treated like an M.D. when you are not an M.D. We don't treat foreign MDs equal to MDs from the states when it comes to residency so it's understandable that DOs are treated likewise because they are not U.S. educated MDs. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

True that. You can't expect to be treated like an MD who graduated from a US school when it comes to getting a residency/fellowship when you're trying to get into the profession through the back door.

So, between all the fluff, Chief Resident really has some insight.

"When I finish residency I want a job as a doctor where I will work 40 hours a week (9-5 schedule), not work on the weekends, have no call, and not be responsible for teaching residents/med students or having anything to do with research. Is FP best suited for this?"

Thanks for keeping the allo profession pure for the rest of us. Also, I guess at that allo school of yours they teach you that CABG's are done by cardiologists? Sweet. Score one for cardio :rolleyes:

Ill put my resume/credentials (as well as those of several colleagues) up against yours any day, so dont bring that weak-ass **** in here.

Whatever, the "troll" defense only goes to show you want to divert attention away from the discussion. Maybe my choice of wording wasn't the most politically correct, but you should not expect to be treated like an M.D. when you are not an M.D. We don't treat foreign MDs equal to MDs from the states when it comes to residency so it's understandable that DOs are treated likewise because they are not U.S. educated MDs.

:laugh:

You're an ignorant dufus who can't stay on topic with the thread.

So, between all the fluff, Chief Resident really has some insight.

"When I finish residency I want a job as a doctor where I will work 40 hours a week (9-5 schedule), not work on the weekends, have no call, and not be responsible for teaching residents/med students or having anything to do with research. Is FP best suited for this?"

Thanks for keeping the allo profession pure for the rest of us.

So I don't want to be a slave to my job like I see so many doctors are, so what?

Also, I guess at that allo school of yours they teach you that CABG's are done by cardiologists? Sweet. Score one for cardio :rolleyes:

CABGs are done by CT surgeons, angio is done by cardiologists and massages are given by DOs.

Ill put my resume/credentials (as well as those of several colleagues) up against yours any day, so dont bring that weak-ass **** in here.[

If you have a DO degree then the rest of your "resume/credentials" are moot against an MD degree.

:laugh:

You're an ignorant dufus who can't stay on topic with the thread.Actually you were the one who pulled the "troll" card to divert attention from the discussion.

Actually you were the one who pulled the "troll" card to divert attention from the discussion.

And you were the one who made it MD vs DO instead of the original discussion about Graduate Medical Education, which is the basis of this forum.

Because MD's aren't trained in OMT.

And DOs aren't trained in EBM or as well in molecular basis of disease, so what? We all spend 4 full years in medical school, it's not as if we sit around and do nothing while you learn OMT. While you learn OMT, we learn the aforementioned things, so why should we let you into our residency programs when 1) you guys are completely arrogant about shutting MDs out of DO residency programs and 2) you guys lack the same education we do, considering OMT is replacing the EBM, molecular basis of disease, and overall bench-to-bedside research bent of MD training. Thus for the same reason MDs cant go into DO programs because we dont know OMT, you shouldn't be able to go into our programs because you did not learn the things we did.

The complete arrogance of DOs saying "we do everything an MD does and more (OMT)" is astonishing. And then you expect us to sit around and welcome you into the MD fold when you have the hubris to tell us "we should be treated as equals in MD programs, but you aren't allowed to enter DO programs because you don't know OMT." You guys went to DO school, you know the philosophy and you espouse it as what makes you different by ribbing MDs about "treating the whole patient not the disease". And then you want to come to MD residencies even though it is the very uniqueness of the so-called osteopathic philosophy that prevents MDs from applying to DO residencies.

Give me a break, the only DO specialties MDs would want are derm, plastics, ortho, ent, and ophtho, NONE of which involve OMT. You guys just want the best of both worlds while shutting us out of yours, and that is BS. It's either we are equal or not. You can't have it both ways. You guys should really listen to yourself, because it is quite disturbing what you guys expect (which is to get everything and give nothing in return). And MDs are supposedly the arrogant breed? Please... :rolleyes:

And DOs aren't trained in EBM or as well in molecular basis of disease, so what? We all spend 4 full years in medical school, it's not as if we sit around and do nothing while you learn OMT. While you learn OMT, we learn the aforementioned things, so why should we let you into our residency programs when 1) you guys are completely arrogant about shutting MDs out of DO residency programs and 2) you guys lack the same education we do, considering OMT is replacing the EBM, molecular basis of disease, and overall bench-to-bedside research bent of MD training. Thus for the same reason MDs cant go into DO programs because we dont know OMT, you shouldn't be able to go into our programs because you did not learn the things we did.

The complete arrogance of DOs saying "we do everything an MD does and more (OMT)" is astonishing. And then you expect us to sit around and welcome you into the MD fold when you have the hubris to tell us "we should be treated as equals in MD programs, but you aren't allowed to enter DO programs because you don't know OMT." You guys went to DO school, you know the philosophy and you espouse it as what makes you different by ribbing MDs about "treating the whole patient not the disease". And then you want to come to MD residencies even though it is the very uniqueness of the so-called osteopathic philosophy that prevents MDs from applying to DO residencies.

Give me a break, the only DO specialties MDs would want are derm, plastics, ortho, ent, and ophtho, NONE of which involve OMT. You guys just want the best of both worlds while shutting us out of yours, and that is BS. You guys should really listen to yourself, because it is quite disturbing what you guys expect (which is to get everything and give nothing).

:thumbup: :thumbup:

CABGs are done by CT surgeons, angio is done by cardiologists and massages are given by DOs..

From Chief Resident, posted today

"You have to ask yourself if there are enough cases in valve repair, arrhythmia surgery, aortic surgery, transplant and so on to go around for everybody as more and more CABGs are taken over by cardiologists. There are only so many positions for CT surgeons in academic centers."

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you. Of course, when you are making your 100K as an 8-5 FP doc (with Fridays off!) and serving my kids fries at the ski lodge to "moonlight", at least you'll be able to hang your hat on that MD.

(Please note, this flame is specific to Chief Resident. No future FP or fry seller should take any offense at the above post....just the troll)

:D

The reason I started this thread is because I'm having a "general residency issue".

I've run into a frustrating problem that I hoped that I wouldn't.

I'm trying to demonstrate my frustration with an anonymous forum in the passive-aggressive atmosphere it's meant to be.

Do you really want to do a DO residency/fellowship? Or just any competetive program that will take you? Well, that's my standpoint. I don't give a crap if it's DO or MD. I want to stay in this area. Just thought I'd give it a shot.

And DOs aren't trained in EBM or as well in molecular basis of disease, so what?

Boy I really have to get my school's curriculum committee to get rid of our biostatistics, biochem, micro, pathology, and EBM courses. Thanks for letting me know that we dont get trained in this!

Awesome.

From Chief Resident, posted today

"You have to ask yourself if there are enough cases in valve repair, arrhythmia surgery, aortic surgery, transplant and so on to go around for everybody as more and more CABGs are taken over by cardiologists. There are only so many positions for CT surgeons in academic centers."

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you.

You don't have to be sorry for misunderstanding me, it was probably an honest mistake on your part. My statement meant that not as many CABGs are being done by CT surgeons because cardiologists are doing more angios thereby reducing the need for CABGs.


Of course, when you are making your 100K as an 8-5 FP doc (with Fridays off!) and serving my kids fries at the ski lodge to "moonlight", at least you'll be able to hang your hat on that MD.

LOL, didn't you think we'd all know what movie you copied that bit about "serving my kids fries at the ski lodge", sucker.

Well Dr Mary,

I think you and I got to vent about this GME bs in BOTH DO and MD programs.. I will now be checking out of this as I am way too busy to get into ANOTHER MD vs DO discussion. Good luck to all the MDs and DOs..

Peace
Ectopic

Well Dr Mary,

I think you and I got to vent about this GME bs in BOTH DO and MD programs.. I will now be checking out of this as I am way too busy to get into ANOTHER MD vs DO discussion. Good luck to all the MDs and DOs..

Peace
Ectopic

Yep, I'm out too. Chief Resident has turned this into a flame war. :luck: to you!

LOL, didn't you think we'd all know what movie you copied that bit about "serving my kids fries at the ski lodge", sucker.

Of course I did. It isnt funny if no one gets it.

Ive enjoyed this. I was in the mood for a good DO/MD debate. Thanks for being such a good target.

Of course I did. It isnt funny if no one gets it.

Ive enjoyed this. I was in the mood for a good DO/MD debate. Thanks for being such a good target.

Giving up already? I was just beginning to take you and your "resume" apart. Come back when your feelings aren't hurt. :)

Ok, so chief resident is not as tactful as he/she could be. But he has a point, aside from the flaming.

DOs who think that they can do an osteo degree and then get allopathic residencies ARE taking the back door, as chief pointed out. And while there are some DOs who are brilliant and have excellent resumes, it seems like the majority of them did the DO route because they could not get into the MD route. And if that is the case, then why should they be treated equally?

What I was trying to say earlier is that if you go into DO knowing what the focus is, then you will not be disappointed when all you can get is a primary care residency. If you go into DO thinking that it is the easier way of being a doctor and don't want to bother with getting the MD, then you will be outraged when programs "discriminate" against you. Really, if you want to be an allopathic doctor, then go to an allopathic medical school.

This is not an MD vs DO war. It is realizing what your degree means and what you are trained to do. Suppose a nurse practitioner came on here and complained about discrimination because he couldn't get an allo residency. We would all say, well, you should have gone to medical school. That's not MD vs nurse, that's reality.

Ok, so chief resident is not as tactful as he/she could be. But he has a point, aside from the flaming.

DOs who think that they can do an osteo degree and then get allopathic residencies ARE taking the back door, as chief pointed out. And while there are some DOs who are brilliant and have excellent resumes, it seems like the majority of them did the DO route because they could not get into the MD route. And if that is the case, then why should they be treated equally?

What I was trying to say earlier is that if you go into DO knowing what the focus is, then you will not be disappointed when all you can get is a primary care residency. If you go into DO thinking that it is the easier way of being a doctor and don't want to bother with getting the MD, then you will be outraged when programs "discriminate" against you. Really, if you want to be an allopathic doctor, then go to an allopathic medical school.

This is not an MD vs DO war. It is realizing what your degree means and what you are trained to do. Suppose a nurse practitioner came on here and complained about discrimination because he couldn't get an allo residency. We would all say, well, you should have gone to medical school. That's not MD vs nurse, that's reality.

They probably know what you're saying is true, but they don't want to accept or acknowledge it.

I met many do's on the interview circuit as most programs carib grads like myself in with the same pool as DO's. The US allo grads that interviewed with us were basically bottom of the barrel which is pretty much what i expected. On avg. the allo grads that I interviewed with were scoring 50 points lower(!) on step 1 then i had. Thats the penalty that PD's give to non us and non allo grads. When I was a medicine intern I participated in the interview process and my PD ranked EVERY US allo applicant (many with mutliple failed classes, multiple step attemtps, a few with documented discipline issues) over the best of the best carib grads (many with 95+ both steps and great lor's), and they didnt even bother interviewing DO's. Whether you want to face it or not a large percentage of DO's went to their schools looking for a backdoor into the match and simply settled for the stigma of carrying a DO instead of a degree from some 3rd world dump. I think the OP either fell for the DO sales brochure or simply made the mistake of believing what the school admins were telling him.

In any case good luck with the match.. there are alot of gems buried beneath the top tier programs and hopefully you will find a place that makes you happy.

Can we all agree that there are two main accrediting bodies when it comes to GME? The ACGME and the AOA. Lets say a hospital or physician group in Happy, Texas wants to start a training program in Dermatology. The Dermatology dept. is made up of 10 physicians (9 MDs, 1 DO). Since they are mostly MDs are wish to include everyone (MDs and DOs alike) they are going to seek accreditation from the ACGME and the ADA. Based on this how the HELL do you figure MDs/Allopaths own the residency. So why not seek dual approval from the AOA/ACGME? Too many hoops to jump through w/ the AOA. Besides why bother when ACGME accreditted program is inclusive to MDs and DOs. Plus those dudes running the AOA are nuts I'll admit that. The same would apply if it was 10 DOs seeking AOA approval only, except in this case they wish to includes DOs only. Unfair yes, but they probably have a chip on their shoulder from all the allo PDs that wouldn't give them the time of day. Can you blame them for not wanting to include MDs? Now obviously this scenario only holds for community programs w/o med school sponsorship which invariably dictates the accreditation they seek. The good thing is that more and more programs are becoming dually accredited (Even MD school programs) albeit primary care programs (at least I am happy) which will likely be the only programs I apply to so you self righteous pricks (only intended to those complaining) will stop bitching about how we stole your spots. The the right to interview and rank should be up to the Residency program. Its obvious that many dept chairs/PDs think that having a DO resident will make their program appear less competitive to ignorant med students that don't realize that there are those that chose to attend an osteopathic school for reasons other than not gaining acceptance into an MD school. Hard to believe but it happens. Flame on.

And DOs aren't trained in EBM or as well in molecular basis of disease, so what?

Response to EBM
Crap... You mean I took that epidemiology, Biostats, and EBM test for nothing.

Response to molecular basis of dz
Again, crap... I guess I can stop reading Robbin's. Someon better tell the mighty Goljan this at OSU.

If DOs don't let MDs into their residencies why should we let DOs into ours?

Dude, were you beaten or molested by a DO when you were a child or something. Whats with all the hostility towards DOs? You never have anything remotely nice to say.

Ok, so chief resident is not as tactful as he/she could be. But he has a point, aside from the flaming.

DOs who think that they can do an osteo degree and then get allopathic residencies ARE taking the back door, as chief pointed out. And while there are some DOs who are brilliant and have excellent resumes, it seems like the majority of them did the DO route because they could not get into the MD route. And if that is the case, then why should they be treated equally?

What I was trying to say earlier is that if you go into DO knowing what the focus is, then you will not be disappointed when all you can get is a primary care residency. If you go into DO thinking that it is the easier way of being a doctor and don't want to bother with getting the MD, then you will be outraged when programs "discriminate" against you. Really, if you want to be an allopathic doctor, then go to an allopathic medical school.

This is not an MD vs DO war. It is realizing what your degree means and what you are trained to do. Suppose a nurse practitioner came on here and complained about discrimination because he couldn't get an allo residency. We would all say, well, you should have gone to medical school. That's not MD vs nurse, that's reality.


Do you really believe in the crap comming out of your mouth? Do you honestly believe that an allopathic medical school is harder than an osteopathic school?

Seriously!!! What is with the holier than though complex here.

MODERATOR...can we PLEASE stop this rediculous BS!!!

This is OBVIOUSLY gone far away from the OPs reasoning for starting this thread, and has become an MD v. DO thing (again)

Do you really believe in the crap comming out of your mouth? Do you honestly believe that an allopathic medical school is harder than an osteopathic school?

Seriously!!! What is with the holier than though complex here.

I don't know whether osteopathic school is harder than allopathic school. My point was that it is easier to get into osteopathic school.

There is no holier than thou complex. I know that I am not the smartest or the hardest working medical student in my class. I accept that and I also accept the limitations that go along with it. If you sign up for a DO then you should understand the limitations that go with that. And honestly, we all know that DO often means the person could not get into an allopathic school in the U.S. When I was applying for medical school I did not even consider a DO school, because I knew I could get into a competitive allopathic school. I'm guessing that most of the DO students would have gone to MD schools if they could have.

So, between all the fluff, Chief Resident really has some insight.

"When I finish residency I want a job as a doctor where I will work 40 hours a week (9-5 schedule), not work on the weekends, have no call, and not be responsible for teaching residents/med students or having anything to do with research. Is FP best suited for this?"

Thanks for keeping the allo profession pure for the rest of us. Also, I guess at that allo school of yours they teach you that CABG's are done by cardiologists? Sweet. Score one for cardio :rolleyes:

Ill put my resume/credentials (as well as those of several colleagues) up against yours any day, so dont bring that weak-ass **** in here.


You know the residency issues dont bother me, but what is bothering me is this whole having to give up my seat in the front of the bus when a US MD climbs aboard. Seriously... Grow the Funk up. :thumbdown

I don't know whether osteopathic school is harder than allopathic school. My point was that it is easier to get into osteopathic school.

There is no holier than thou complex. I know that I am not the smartest or the hardest working medical student in my class. I accept that and I also accept the limitations that go along with it. If you sign up for a DO then you should understand the limitations that go with that. And honestly, we all know that DO often means the person could not get into an allopathic school in the U.S. When I was applying for medical school I did not even consider a DO school, because I knew I could get into a competitive allopathic school. I'm guessing that most of the DO students would have gone to MD schools if they could have.

ok, so I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring as well...

let's start off by asking this question: WHAT is the difference in getting accepted into an allo v. osteo program...GPA?, MCAT?...ok...how 'bout this...I'll give you both....SO, we are looking at a person who, for WHATEVER reason, DIDN'T get in into an allo school...maybe they were rushing a fraternity and had really bad semester, maybe there were other things going on in life, maybe they were not good in physics--which WE ALL know HOW MUCH we used in EVERYDAY medicine :rolleyes: , maybe they are the "non-traditional" student, and oh yes...maybe...just maybe they WANTED to go to a DO school--KINDA LIKE ME, who was accepted into MCV, Rush, AND Finch but decided to go to where I am now since I TRULY like the place and felt VERY comfortable here (and it's the school that had the JD component as well, which was an added bonus :thumbup: )

so now that we've established that the differecne b/w student A who goes to allo v. student B who goes to osteo is the "lower" (see below) GPA and MCAT that student B has, for whatever reason (see above)...now, let's analyze how the education is easier or harder....it is often said that the hardest part of medicine is GETTING into medical school....now, maybe I am wrong in this, but I AGREE with it....if you think about, an acute pancreatitis is gonna be an acute pancreatitis no matter if you learn it in Harvard, Penn, PCOM, NYCOM, UMDNJ, Ross, St. Georges, India, China, Pakistan, Israel, well...I thikn you get the picture.... :laugh: POINT: schools are NOT easier or harder than each other (remember, there is a COUNCIL that oversees edumacation and has standards set forth). We often "swap" tests w/ other schools "allo and osteo" here so we have more study material....I guess the allo students "must" be morons for doing something w/ an osteo school, right :rolleyes: ....EDUCATION is EDUCATION....acute pancreatitis is acute pancreatitis.....

case in point, just came back from a sub-I @ a VERY PRESTIGIOUS US institution...when we all sat there (myself and other students from that institution) to discuss a case, a particular disease process, or whatever, there were some questions that I got right and some that I got wrong, and there were some questions that others got right as well as wrong....the point: INITIALS AFTER YOUR FRIGGIN' NAME MEANS ABSOLUTE S**T....HOW GOOD OF A FUTURE PHYSCICIAN IS ALL THAT IT'S ABOUT!!!! There are good DOs and bad DOs, as there are good MDs and bad MDs....

it's a shame that the bad DOs give the rest of us a bad name, and its a shame that the bad MDs "get away with it" since they have the "MD" after their name....BUT THAT IS LIFE!!! :idea: :idea: :idea:


FYI: whether you choose to believe me or not in this (which I really am NOT gonna lose sleep over if you don't), here are my "LOW" GPA and MCAT scores to get admittied to "only an osteopathic school" :D :rolleyes: :

3.69 bio major w/ psych minor from U.Penn
MCAT: 31 (12 bio, 10 phy, 9 verbal)

3.69 bio major w/ psych minor from U.Penn
MCAT: 31 (12 bio, 10 phy, 9 verbal)
You might want to consider bringing your verbal up if you want to practice medicine in the US....

Ok, so chief resident is not as tactful as he/she could be. But he has a point, aside from the flaming.

DOs who think that they can do an osteo degree and then get allopathic residencies ARE taking the back door, as chief pointed out. And while there are some DOs who are brilliant and have excellent resumes, it seems like the majority of them did the DO route because they could not get into the MD route. And if that is the case, then why should they be treated equally?

What I was trying to say earlier is that if you go into DO knowing what the focus is, then you will not be disappointed when all you can get is a primary care residency. If you go into DO thinking that it is the easier way of being a doctor and don't want to bother with getting the MD, then you will be outraged when programs "discriminate" against you. Really, if you want to be an allopathic doctor, then go to an allopathic medical school.

This is not an MD vs DO war. It is realizing what your degree means and what you are trained to do. Suppose a nurse practitioner came on here and complained about discrimination because he couldn't get an allo residency. We would all say, well, you should have gone to medical school. That's not MD vs nurse, that's reality.

ok...so paragraph by paragraph...

1) the "back door" issue: c'mon....do you REALLY pride youself in thinking that you are THAT much "superior" than a DO? In other words, your "back door" comment quite reasonably implies that you think DOs are trying to "compensate" for their apparent lack of the prestigious "MD" initials by going into an allopathic residency...now, I would think this is just a LITTLE bit rediculous, don't you? don't mean to start a war here, b/c to be honest, all this is rediculous. But, that doesn't mean that I am gonna sit here w/ a pacifist approach either....anyways, and how exactly is it a "back door" which also implies that it is "easier" to get into than the "front door." I would also say that it is HARDER for DOs to get allo spots than MDs (duh!! :rolleyes: :idea: ) and MAYBE a little easier than FMGs (some places prefer FMGs than DOs since they still have the "MD")...so, in essence, it's NOT a back door in the easy sense, and neither is it a back door in that "nepoleonic-I-wish-I-were-an-MD-but-since-I-am-not-I-think-I'll-try-to-get-an-allopathic-MD-residency-so-I-can-feel-good-about-myself" issue either....sorry to disappoint you, robot ;)...and 1 more thing....a DO going to an MD residency won't "magically" be able to become the MD and will STILL be the DO...just doing his/her training @ an MD institution...

2) Go to an allopathic school: COULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU ANYMORE, BROTHA'!!!!!! If you are truly gonna be "ashamed" at wriiting "DO" after your name, then robot is ABSOLUTELY correct....go to the MD school!!!! Be happy with yourself!!!

3) What your degree means: Ok?...this was interesting...so what do YOU think the "DO" means....do you think that we should just sit there and crack necks and backs all day?....do you think we should be out in the boonies of Arkansas (apologies to anyone from AK here :) ) and deliver babies in the pale moonlight....or does that mean that we should see our patients and chant "Om" with them until their illnesses magically go away....no need for a exorcisim though...THAT would be crazy! :laugh: :laugh: Don't mean to sound harsh, but just tryin' to get an understanding of what YOUR opinion of the "DO" actually means....I guess ALL THAT TIME I spent learning about pathology, OB, surg, peds, medicine, etc etc was SUCH a waste of time since I can ONLY use my DO to do the aforementioned things anyways. :laugh: :D

Just a chess game!!

You might want to consider bringing your verbal up if you want to practice medicine in the US....


i hab bery bery bhad gremmier bhich is bhy i do no gud in vurbaal! :laugh: :laugh:

i hab bery bery bhad gremmier bhich is bhy i do no gud in vurbaal! :laugh: :laugh:
Ah.. that explains all! Your forgiven.. continue on..

Boy I really have to get my school's curriculum committee to get rid of our biostatistics, biochem, micro, pathology, and EBM courses. Thanks for letting me know that we dont get trained in this!

Awesome.

MD and DO school are both 4 years. You guys learn OMT, we learn other things obviously. Whether that is more in depth pathology, physiology, diagnosis, etc I dont know nor do I care. The fact of the matter is while you guys are doing OMT we are doing something else. That something else makes us different enough that whatever lame excuse you use to let yourself compete for MD slots but not allow us to get DO spots is bullcrap and you know it.

And I love how no one responded to the rest of my post, I guess you agree completely that DOs have become so hypersensitized to not having an MD that they are acting like spoiled children wanting to get into MD residencies as equals but not allowing us to get into DO residencies as well.

Frankly, there is not a single good reason for MD programs to accept a DO as long as DOs arrogantly refuse to return the favor. So don't act as if allopaths owe you anything as long as you keep barring us from your residencies (but then laughably threatening to sue us for discrimination for not considering you for some programs, when you won't consider us for ANY) and as long as you keep spewing this "oh we treat the whole patient with OMT" nonsense.

Either we are equals or not, so pick. In either case, just stop being so arrogant and greedy. You chose to go to DO school, so don't act surprised that once you leave this magical fairyworld of SDN where DO=MD if the real world is different and shows are called House MD instead of House DO because no one would know what the latter show would be about. And frankly, as long as people keep spouting this "whole patient" bullcrap and denying MDs the right to get into the competitive DO specialties (derm, ortho, etc), don't expect to be treated any better either.

The fact of the matter is while you guys are doing OMT we are doing something else. That something else makes us different enough that whatever lame excuse you use to let yourself compete for MD slots but not allow us to get DO spots is bullcrap and you know it.

Okay, I am going to play :D . First of all, we do not learn OMT over something else that MD may be learning. We learn OMT on top of eveything else that MDs learn. Second off, a good friend of mine from a MD school came to visit me and realized that we both learn the same things except DOs also have to learn OMT. I am not saying one is better than the other just wanted to clear that little misunderstanding on your part.

Something to ponder on, my friend also told me at her MD program there was a student there that started off in the class of 2005. Failed 1st year, repeated it. Then failed 2nd year was able to repeat it. Last she heard the person was now in the class of 2007, or maybe even in the class of 2008. At my school 3 strikes and you are out. No ifs, ands, or buts. Like I said just something to ponder on.

You never have anything remotely nice to say.

The truth isn't always nice when it comes to this topic.

I am not up for getting involved in a pissing contest but I do have a question for my MD colleagues. What do you guys think of a DO student who performs well on USMLE, outperforming many of the MD students?. Would you prefer to be working with a student/Dr. with inferior board scores just because he is an allopath ? Do you think DO students who perform well on your board exam deserve a shot aty allopathic residencies ? I agree MD students should be allowed a shot at DO residences - it is only fair. But the AOA, in it's inifnite wisdom, will never let that happen, much like they will never support the combined match.

Good luck to everyone - MD and DO - with interviews and boards this season !

Chris

PS I am a DO who will be joining the allopathic ranks in IM. I am excited to work with both the MDs and DOs. I would hope that everyone would judge what kind of Dr/student I am based on my abilites rather than the initials on my jacket. Just my 02

So does that mean MDs can sue to get into DO derm residencies too? Denying us that right is pure discrimation! Why not just put all us MDs in reservations while you are at it, since you are denying us this fundamental freedom! :rolleyes:

NO it doesn't. I think MD's should be considered for DO slots. The problem is that MD's technically aren't qualified. The only difference between a strictly DO program (many are joint AMA and AOA and thus accept both), is that it was specifec osteopathic manipulative medicine requirements. Since MD's are not trained or certified to do manipulation they can not fulfill the requirements needed for the residency and thus it is not discrimination.

That being said, I firmly believe that if an MD were to take courses and get certified in manipulation I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to persue a strictly DO residency.

And DOs aren't trained in EBM or as well in molecular basis of disease, so what?



Ummm...that is flat out wrong. Dont' want to be mean, but DO's are definitely taught EBM and to utilize it. I don't know where you got the idea that they aren't.

I would agree with you though that most DO schools do not train as deeply in molecular basis of disease (hard core histology, biochem, etc.) because most are not research based institutions, they are there to train physcians, not necessarily researchers, but their are sereral MD schools that do likewise. MD schools hit some core science things harder not because it will make you a better physician but because it will make you a better researcher.

And I love how no one responded to the rest of my post, I guess you agree completely that DOs have become so hypersensitized to not having an MD that they are acting like spoiled children wanting to get into MD residencies as equals but not allowing us to get into DO residencies as well.

Read my other response to DO's not allowing MD's.

The real reason why....there are not enought DO residencies. Over half of all DO's do ACGME residencies and it isn't because they prefer those. It has to do with numbers. There are only enough DO residencies to fill about 50-60% of graduating DO's. Since it is easier to get accredited by the ACGME and since the ACGME allows both, their is no need for AOA certification and those many programs don't follow though with getting both.

I think the AOA's stupid policy of forcing one to take a DO residency if they match to one also effects the numbers. I have looked at many residency programs. My first choice is to return to Texas and several of the programs I like, including my first choice just happen to be ACGME or dually accredited. If I apply to DO programs and get accepted to one (say the 6th on my list) I will be forced to take that spot even if my number 1 or 2 spot (one ACGME and one dual accredited) except me. Because of this I chose not to even apply to the AOA programs and many of my friends made the same decision.

Incidentally I had very competitive scores coming out of college and chose to go to a DO school for several reasons. True my top school which I did not get into was an AMA program, but it was not my top school because of that...I just liked the program and the location. (Incidentally I was later granted admission on a rolling basis for the following year but was already a semester thourgh school).

My goal was to be a doctor, I could really care less wether it was an MD or DO. In the Army programs they don't even distinguish between them, your just a physician.

Okay, I am going to play :D . First of all, we do not learn OMT over something else that MD may be learning. We learn OMT on top of eveything else that MDs learn. Second off, a good friend of mine from a MD school came to visit me and realized that we both learn the same things except DOs also have to learn OMT. I am not saying one is better than the other just wanted to clear that little misunderstanding on your part.


This is exactly the arrogance of DOs I have been talking about the whole time. "We don't treat the disease we treat the whole patient" "We learn OMT on top of eveything else that MDs learn" That is so cocky it's not even funny. To say you learn OMT on top of everything else MDs learn in the same 4 year span obviously means you believe you learn more (as if we sit on our hands while you are learning OMT). That is downright insulting, and probably another myth propagated by the AOA.

Obviously you don't do everything an MD does plus OMT, because if that was true you wouldn't be performing so poorly compared to MDs on USMLE exams. But of course, your natural response to this difference is that "We aren't trained for that test, we take our own test" Well, then its not true that you do everything an MD does + OMT now is it? The only way that score difference exists is because 1) our curricula are different, and thus a DO shouldn't be able to get into an MD residency the same way MDs aren't allowed into DO residencies because of OMT or 2) DOs are dumber. I will imagine that most people would pick the former as the most logical and politically correct explanation.

It's really frustrating hearing such arrogance. And whether you realize it or not, it breeds more resentment than you can imagine.

So feel free to keep saying these things to your MD colleagues, but don't expect much sympathy from us when you want to get into our residency programs and are discriminated against. Because the way DOs act towards MDs, you guys shouldn't even be allowed in our programs as long as you keep barring us from yours.

And I dont care about the shortage or AOA residency spots, that's not the point. The point is, are DOs and MDs equal or not? If we are, then both our residency programs should be open to free competition. If we are unequal, then we should keep our programs seperate as in the status quo, but bar DOs from MD residencies to return the favor.

If you have a DO degree then the rest of your "resume/credentials" are moot against an MD degree.

Yo Chief,

HOW ARE YOU FEELING ABOUT YOURSELF THESE DAYS???

Thought so. Get some counselling bro, you could be so much happier.

So I scheduled a SICU rotation at the Institution X the other day, not anticipating the swift rejection from the surgery department. But today I decided to cancel the SICU rotation and do it at another place, so I had to call the Anesthesia department to cancel it.

I told the secretary I talked to the other day that I had to cancel and the reason why, and even told her about the email that my good bud Harry sent back to me and she goes "Wow, really? That's weird. It's weird because our program director is a DO and we have lots of DO residents, and my family doctor is a DO and I just think they are the greatest in the world!" She told me I should come and do anesthesia there. :D

I realize surgery still has a lot of issues with women and DO's, and hopefully that will change someday.

I still plan on getting back to Harry.

Oh and btw.....time to quit arguing MD vs DO. Take it back to the pre Allo and pre Osteo forums guys.

So I scheduled a SICU rotation at the Institution X the other day, not anticipating the swift rejection from the surgery department. But today I decided to cancel the SICU rotation and do it at another place, so I had to call the Anesthesia department to cancel it.

I told the secretary I talked to the other day that I had to cancel and the reason why, and even told her about the email that my good bud Harry sent back to me and she goes "Wow, really? That's weird. It's weird because our program director is a DO and we have lots of DO residents, and my family doctor is a DO and I just think they are the greatest in the world!" She told me I should come and do anesthesia there. :D

I realize surgery still has a lot of issues with women and DO's, and hopefully that will change someday.

I still plan on getting back to Harry.

Oh and btw.....time to quit arguing MD vs DO. Take it back to the pre Allo and pre Osteo forums guys.


Hi DrMary, let me know what happens with your application. If they already HAVE DO residents, (do they in the surgery dept?) why would they say that they can't offer you an interview? Do you think maybe it was there lame way of denying you an interview in general?

And to the people on this board that are being immature, you know who you are- just get over it, you are NOT going to change what is already here (MD's, DO's and IMG's), learn to work with eachother for Pete's sake and LEARN SOME RESPECT FOR YOUR COLLEAGUES its shameful... seriously

and yes, I'm an MD US grad, but who REALLY CARES? My patients don't, isn't that what you all should be worried about? WHAT YOUR PATIENT WORRIES ABOUT? :idea:

This is exactly the arrogance of DOs I have been talking about the whole time. "We don't treat the disease we treat the whole patient" "We learn OMT on top of eveything else that MDs learn" That is so cocky it's not even funny. To say you learn OMT on top of everything else MDs learn in the same 4 year span obviously means you believe you learn more (as if we sit on our hands while you are learning OMT). That is downright insulting, and probably another myth propagated by the AOA.

Obviously you don't do everything an MD does plus OMT, because if that was true you wouldn't be performing so poorly compared to MDs on USMLE exams. But of course, your natural response to this difference is that "We aren't trained for that test, we take our own test" Well, then its not true that you do everything an MD does + OMT now is it? The only way that score difference exists is because 1) our curricula are different, and thus a DO shouldn't be able to get into an MD residency the same way MDs aren't allowed into DO residencies because of OMT or 2) DOs are dumber. I will imagine that most people would pick the former as the most logical and politically correct explanation.

It's really frustrating hearing such arrogance. And whether you realize it or not, it breeds more resentment than you can imagine.

So feel free to keep saying these things to your MD colleagues, but don't expect much sympathy from us when you want to get into our residency programs and are discriminated against. Because the way DOs act towards MDs, you guys shouldn't even be allowed in our programs as long as you keep barring us from yours.

And I dont care about the shortage or AOA residency spots, that's not the point. The point is, are DOs and MDs equal or not? If we are, then both our residency programs should be open to free competition. If we are unequal, then we should keep our programs seperate as in the status quo, but bar DOs from MD residencies to return the favor.


Calm down BOY!!! I did Not say that in an arrogant manner! You are the one with the bone to pick. You were the one that started the attack. I personally think that Texdrake already addressed the reason why MDs can not apply to the DOs residency. Me I could care less. Frankly, I think that is all should be combined. By the way what year are you in?

Yo Chief,

HOW ARE YOU FEELING ABOUT YOURSELF THESE DAYS???


I'm feeling great, thanks for asking. How are you?

The root of this problem is DOs assuming they should be treated the same as MDs when they are not MDs. Last I heard the DO degree isn't even recognized in other countries.

Giving up already? I was just beginning to take you and your "resume" apart. Come back when your feelings aren't hurt. :)
Loser

The root of this problem is DOs assuming they should be treated the same as MDs when they are not MDs. Last I heard the DO degree isn't even recognized in other countries.
Loooooooooooser!

The root of this problem is DOs assuming they should be treated the same as MDs when they are not MDs. Last I heard the DO degree isn't even recognized in other countries.
Hi my name is chief resident, I try to make myself feel better by cutting down D.O.'s. Cutting down D.O.'s cant make up for your problems, do you need to talk to someone. Sounds like your really insecure!!!!!!!

Hi my name is chief resident, I try to make myself feel better by cutting down D.O.'s.

Your name is allendo.

The root of this problem is DOs assuming they should be treated the same as MDs when they are not MDs. Last I heard the DO degree isn't even recognized in other countries.

I guess it is also a problem that I assume I should be treated like white people when I am not white. Last I heard blacks are not treated fairly in many other countries. Don't you have a anti-DO/IMG clan meeting to attend.

Wow, this is a great thread. Patient care is obviously #1 on a lot of peoples list. Also, the MD primary care programs need us DOs, because pre-Madonna MD students won't touch those programs. So, they won't be shutting us out any time soon. Good luck trolling Fantasy and Chief, you guys must have rewarding lives.

I guess it is also a problem that I assume I should be treated like white people when I am not white. Last I heard blacks are not treated fairly in many other countries. Don't you have a anti-DO/IMG clan meeting to attend.

Nice, trying to play the irrelevent race card.

I've seen numerous patients state that they could careless if someone is a DO, MD, PA, whatever as long as they are knowledgeable and compassionate. Only people that argue MD vs DO and give a flying f are MD's that feel for some reason superior when actually they suck ass and patients hate them....or DO's that are insecure and have a chip on their shoulder. My man chief resident falls into to 1st category......

Nice, trying to play the irrelevent race card.
Oh so now your not just an idiot your a racist! Rally starting to impress me here, but what can I expect where bull there is $hit. Hey chief are you going to get the moderater after me?

I've seen numerous patients state that they could careless if someone is a DO, MD, PA, whatever as long as they are knowledgeable and compassionate. Only people that argue MD vs DO and give a flying f are MD's that feel for some reason superior when actually they suck ass and patients hate them....or DO's that are insecure and have a chip on their shoulder. My man chief resident falls into to 1st category......
I don't have a chip on my shoulder I just can't stand people like Chief rectum.

I've seen numerous patients state that they could careless if someone is a DO, MD, PA, whatever as long as they are knowledgeable and compassionate. Only people that argue MD vs DO and give a flying f are MD's that feel for some reason superior when actually they suck ass and patients hate them....or DO's that are insecure and have a chip on their shoulder. My man chief resident falls into to 1st category......

It's not my problem if you don't like the truth about the limitations with being a DO. Nobody forced you to get that degree and you should've been aware of the potential problems of getting a residency as a DO beforehand instead of complaining now and expecting to be treated like an MD.

It's not my problem if you don't like the truth about the limitations with being a DO. Nobody forced you to get that degree and you should've been aware of the potential problems of getting a residency as a DO beforehand instead of complaining now and expecting to be treated like an MD.
What limitations?

What limitations?

Try reading this thread.

Try reading this thread.
I think you live in a box and think that everyone wants to be a neurosurgeon or a cardiologist(false) Everyone does not want to be in the most competetive specialties.

Calm down kids. :thumbdown

Sure there are programs that for various reasons don't interview DOs, but that doesn't shut DOs out of any specialties.



Since this thread has degenerated, I'm going to close it.