Just curious,

I have heard a lot of people say that as a DO you should really take the USMLE and go for an allopathic residency. Are osteopathic EM residencies not producing good quality physicians. I just thought it might be more advantageous to go for an osteopathic EM res. being that it is your own. Can anyone elaborate?

BMW-

There are (a few) quality D.O. EM residencies. Do a search to find out which ones. Multiple threads address them. You don't have to take the USMLE to get an allopathic EM residency. COMLEX is just fine. One issue is the 4 years required in a D.O. program vs. 3 yrs in most M.D. programs. With either length of training, you will have the same basic competencies coming out of the program.

There are (a few) quality D.O. EM residencies. Do a search to find out which ones. Multiple threads address them. You don't have to take the USMLE to get an allopathic EM residency. COMLEX is just fine. One issue is the 4 years required in a D.O. program vs. 3 yrs in most M.D. programs. With either length of training, you will have the same basic competencies coming out of the program.

UT-Southwestern requires the USMLE. I recently spoke with the program director.

Looking at how the process is going this year, I'd definitely recommend that DO students interested in EM take the USMLE. I'd also recommend that you schedule the COMLEX-CE & PE relatively early in 4th year so that you have scores well before the match.

Thanks guys. I thought the one year DO internship was only if you practiced in certain states? Are all EM, DO residencies 4 years?

BMW-


Looking at how the process is going this year, I'd definitely recommend that DO students interested in EM take the USMLE. I'd also recommend that you schedule the COMLEX-CE & PE relatively early in 4th year so that you have scores well before the match.

All DO EM programs are 4 years.

Yes, the Osteo internship is only required in 5 states.

Can you elaborate on your perception of the "process". As a MSIII it seems like 75% of my class is talking EM. How is this playing out on the run-up for 2006?
Thanks.

IMO, EM is even more competitive this year. The NBOME doesn't make the COMLEX straight-forward to interpret, so it certainly makes it simpler for the PDs to compare everyone with a USMLE rather than trying to figure out the COMLEX. Also, if there are more MD students applying for EM spots, they're likely to automatically be more attractive to PDs. I think that having a USMLE score lessens this because it makes the applicants look less *different*.

If you're an MS3 looking at EM who didn't take the USMLE for step 1, remember that you can take step 2 alone. That appeared to help out one of my classmates with getting ACGME residency interviews.

I applied to both AOA and ACGME programs this year, but have decided to participate only in the AOA match (for a variety of personal reasons). I didn't take the USMLE and I think that it hurt me with a number of ACGME programs. That said, I have been getting interview invites from others.

Remember, just like getting into med school in the first place, there is a certain *crapshoot* aspect to applying for residency. Do anything you can to make your application more attractive.



It'll be interesting to see how competitive EM really is this year after the match results are out. Hard to really come up with anything other than opinion at this point.

Just to throw in my two cents. I believe there are about maybe a dozen quality Osteopathic EM Residencies (not meant as inflammatory just my humble opinion.) That being said I am applying to one of them (as the rest of them are not in places I/My lovely wife find desirable to live.) Otherwise I am applying Allopathic in an attempt to stay in certian regions of the country. The perception that "all DO EM residencies are not quality" is an (false) assumption by allopathic/some Osteopathic students/residents based on the fact that most DO EM residencies are in community hospitals and not academic centers.

The truth about that is that just because a program is community based and not academic in nature doesn't make it sub par in any way, just practice focused and not research focused. Take for example (using my experiences) Resurrection in Chicago, a community based EM program. I found the Attendings and Residents to be very, very smart, talented, interested in practicing evidence based medicine, and the residents get an oppurtunity to take care of very sick patients. One learns most from experience, and they get plenty of it at Resurrection.

On the other hand I also did a month of EM at Masonic (UIC program) and I found the quality of the residents to be quite sub par to the RES residents in knowledge and management, as well as in confidence in their procedures (which are often taken from them by the Trauma team or the attendings trying to "move pts").
All that being said I will probably (much to my own surprise) choose a DO EM as my first choice rather than skip the AOA match. I found the program I am choosing very solid, with great teaching and good rotations in some of America's finest hospitals. (By the way shouldn't we all agree the "AOA Match" is a bit of a joke, with all the "letters of intent" signed before match day.)

Yes DO programs are 4 years (counting internship), but so are some of the best Allopathic: Einstein, Cook County, Northwestern, Etc.

Yes you need to do an internship if you ever hope to rise to any AOA position (i.e. EM program director, Dean of AOA school, Etc) or at least get your allo internship resolution 42 approved

Yes you should take USMLE step 2 when applying. I took it and it was comparable to the Comlex and I did quite well - 99/250. Programs starting knocking on my door after seeing my score. I would avoid USMLE step 1 if your like me and suck at Biochem, Epi, math, boring crap in general (I did not take USMLE 1)

Yes you should be proud of your degree. Be a proud DO (you are not some second rate MD) I have been kicking the butts of students from some very good schools (e.g. Loyola, Rush, UIC, Nortwestern, Brown) as well as some not so good schools (Oklahoma, UT, Texas A+M) during my rotations, and there are many at my school better than me (see DrMoM, Idiopathic, Etc)

Yes DO's can work in Europe (YEAH!)

Yes DO chicks are way hotter! 'nuff said (See inappropriate OMT attire thread)

Later and good luck to everyone

The Mish

regarding the usmle/comlex for EM.

Is there a cutoff, so to speak, of comlex score that could be considered "safe" to use?
i.e. if you are above like a certain percentile on the comlex would it be a safer bet to just use that and not take the usmle step II?

regarding the usmle/comlex for EM.

Is there a cutoff, so to speak, of comlex score that could be considered "safe" to use?
i.e. if you are above like a certain percentile on the comlex would it be a safer bet to just use that and not take the usmle step II?

The point is not that an applicant's COMLEX score is too low, but rather that the ACGME PDs job is simpler with a straightforward way to compare applicants. Also, the NBOME doesn't release the percentiles (which are easily interpretable), but instead use a random 2-digit score that is very different from the USMLE 2-digit system.

I just want to encourage those D.O. students out there who only took the COMLEX to seekout and rank #1 the program that they really want to be at, whether it is MD or DO. If you want a spot at an MD program and you only took the COMLEX don't think of yourself as inferior to the other applicants, because your not and if you think you are that will be found out in your interviews.

I was told I coldn't get into medical school when I applied in 97' because my MCAT was 2 under the average. I got into AZCOM. I was then told I couldn't match into allopathic FP for residency without taking the USMLE, I matched at my #1 choice Mayo Clinic-Scottsdale. After finishing that residency I decided to apply for EM residency and was told that I had used all my Medicare funding, no programs would take me unfunded and EM is too competitive for a DO who only took the COMLEX, I matched at my #1 choice again Texas Tech.

Bottom line, don't listen to the lies and beware of some DO's (not all) who eat their young.

I just want to encourage those D.O. students out there who only took the COMLEX to seekout and rank #1 the program that they really want to be at, whether it is MD or DO. If you want a spot at an MD program and you only took the COMLEX don't think of yourself as inferior to the other applicants, because your not and if you think you are that will be found out in your interviews.

I was told I coldn't get into medical school when I applied in 97' because my MCAT was 2 under the average. I got into AZCOM. I was then told I couldn't match into allopathic FP for residency without taking the USMLE, I matched at my #1 choice Mayo Clinic-Scottsdale. After finishing that residency I decided to apply for EM residency and was told that I had used all my Medicare funding, no programs would take me unfunded and EM is too competitive for a DO who only took the COMLEX, I matched at my #1 choice again Texas Tech.

Bottom line, don't listen to the lies and beware of some DO's (not all) who eat their young.


I agree. DO grads can most-definitely be competitive candidates without having a USMLE score. As I said, I only took the COMLEX & I definitely got interviews from MD programs (and I only applied to a handful as a backup to my DO application). That said, I think I would not have been rejected pre-interview from some programs had I taken the USMLE (either step 1 or 2).

I agree with DrMom, the point is not to have some magic Comlex cutoff score, but to have a score the PD can understand and compare to other candidates (i.e USMLE). Yes it is possible to match without the USMLE, but if you are confident in your Comlex then you should do fine on the USMLE (Comlex-OMT=USMLE ;Actually easier for me).
In both my interviews thus far positive comments were made about my scores, as that is all they have to look into your clinical knowledge base (unless you rotated there).
Point being it opens doors for you and PD's are impressed by silly, superficial things like these tests instead of real issues like how much you bench, how good you look in a pair of scrubs, or how fast you can wolf down a cheeseburger between seeing patients.:p

Just do it and quit your whining :laugh:

Best wishes and good luck to all my future Emergentologists

The Mish

The point is not that an applicant's COMLEX score is too low, but rather that the ACGME PDs job is simpler with a straightforward way to compare applicants. Also, the NBOME doesn't release the percentiles (which are easily interpretable), but instead use a random 2-digit score that is very different from the USMLE 2-digit system.

That bites! :mad:
Isn't there something in the mix, or has already een done that is changingthe way nbome releases comlex scores to make them more interpretable by acgme PDs????? I thought I heard that at a SOMA convention a while back.
Thanks!

I agree with most of what you all are saying. But, with that said, I believe that even with the best USMLE scores, a DO degree will be a limiting factor at some EM programs. I have felt incredibly blessed and greatful to have received invites at some EM programs like Indianapolis, Mayo, UPitt, Maryland, UTSW, Emory, Christ Advocate, and Duke. But there are simply some EM programs that I believe would sooner rank an MD with subpar stats and credentials than rank a stellar DO. To me those programs are superficial and thus I am glad they are doing me the favor of not interviewing me. At least they are straightforward. There are some programs that occassionally interview DO's but never take one unless they have a bad year.

With that said, I believe Vanderbilt, Carolinas, perhaps UNM, and a few others would likely fall into the category of "give me MD or give me death". I mean I am with you Mishka, a good USMLE score (step II 262/99) will get you some very serious looks from allopathic programs, but short of being an MD, some programs just don't care. Luckily though, except for Carolinas, all the top programs are willing to interview a DO. I am not sure why Vandy thinks they are all that nestled in the middle of country music hell anyhew!! :laugh:

Your my new hero corpsmanUP, I really have been wanting an interview at Christ and have heard nothing either way. I'll trade you UIC and Chritiana care for it, huh? how 'bout it? But yeah, I was really supprised to get interviews at UT southwest and Washinton U (wasn't sure if they were DO friendly)

Still waiting on Christ, U of C, Orlando - no news is good news I guess

Later

The Mish

That bites! :mad:
Isn't there something in the mix, or has already een done that is changingthe way nbome releases comlex scores to make them more interpretable by acgme PDs????? I thought I heard that at a SOMA convention a while back.
Thanks!


What would be their motivation to do this? They have no compelling reason (at least in their general line of thinking) to help DO grads get into MD programs.

What would be their motivation to do this? They have no compelling reason (at least in their general line of thinking) to help DO grads get into MD programs.

What I got from it was; Since it is inevitable to have DO grads go acgme, knowing very well thefact that there just are not enough DO spots for the number of DO grads, they would make the scores more readable by PDs.
DISCLAIMER: I am not stating anything like fact, just what I overheard "student" delegates at a convention talking about

What I got from it was; Since it is inevitable to have DO grads go acgme, knowing very well thefact that there just are not enough DO spots for the number of DO grads, they would make the scores more readable by PDs.
DISCLAIMER: I am not stating anything like fact, just what I overheard "student" delegates at a convention talking about

The AOA does not want DO grads going to ACGME programs. They certainly would not do anything to help DO grads get into ACGME programs more easily.

What I got from it was; Since it is inevitable to have DO grads go acgme, knowing very well thefact that there just are not enough DO spots for the number of DO grads, they would make the scores more readable by PDs.
DISCLAIMER: I am not stating anything like fact, just what I overheard "student" delegates at a convention talking about

Well, that is certainly the student opinion.

I don't know if there are further plans to change the scores, but they just changed the 2-digit scoring system recently. (I originally had a percentile score on step 1, but now they list the new 2-digit score.)


All of this said, there are people in the AOA/NBOME who are interested in helping DO grads into whatever residency they want to attend. We just need more like them. Once again, I encourage students/residents to become involved in SOMA, COSGP, AOA committees, etc. They have means for us to have a voice...and if we can get involved now & stay involved we can end up with a new generation of DOs who are active in the AOA & affiliated organizations.

Well, that is certainly the student opinion.

I don't know if there are further plans to change the scores, but they just changed the 2-digit scoring system recently. (I originally had a percentile score on step 1, but now they list the new 2-digit score.)


All of this said, there are people in the AOA/NBOME who are interested in helping DO grads into whatever residency they want to attend. We just need more like them. Once again, I encourage students/residents to become involved in SOMA, COSGP, AOA committees, etc. They have means for us to have a voice...and if we can get involved now & stay involved we can end up with a new generation of DOs who are active in the AOA & affiliated organizations.


Well, maybe they will read the "dean's letter" carefully enough to get the percentile...for whatever it would be worth.

But there are simply some EM programs that I believe would sooner rank an MD with subpar stats and credentials than rank a stellar DO.



that really is very few.....especially when you are getting interviews from places such as pitt and emory. yeah maybe carolinas but that is one of the best in the nation...i can't even get an interview there (don't want to live in charolette besides). i have not heard from pitt, christ, christiana (that one baffles me).....i finally called emory and then they extended the interview. this after most people i've talked to have said with my grades and scores i should hear from just about everyone i apply to. of course i may not be a good example to compare from.....i haven't heard from weird ones such as buffalo. in terms of md's, i'm becoming convinced one big factor that i can't change is the region i am in.....philly.....i am becoming convinced that people assume i want to stay there. ie....getting rejected from utah before they stop accepting applications...sadly i was going to call them and express my interest also but they beat me to it. they win my wtf awad because they are a new program. so i don't know if this helps. but it is obvious to me that if you are a good canidate regardless of the title, they will interview you and then you are halfway there. plus the places you interview you can look at the other residents and see if they take do's....a sign that they are do friendly.

plus the places you interview you can look at the other residents and see if they take do's....a sign that they are do friendly.


Unfortunately you cannot use this at most places because for the shear numbers of EM programs, there are in reality only a handful of DO's who apply. So even if they rank a DO high they may never get one because of the limited number they interview. I emailed several programs about this and they told me that they have ranked many DO's high on their list but still had not matched any. So its hard to say. I think a better reference for us would be to know which programs routinely interview DO applicants, and which do not. I'll post a new thread after interview season detailing the feeling I get from each place I interviewed and whether they truly were DO friendly. I get the feeling that except for a few southern programs, that most interview DO's and probably rank them fairly.

Thanks for the postings/opinions/advice.
I unfortunately did not know about the Step-II-only option. I took step I of the USMLE and passed comfortably, but my score is not competitive. (at least by the stratospheric numbers put up on SDN) I don't really think it's competitive in the real world either...sub-210.
I plan on taking Step II in August. the question banks that I have completed thus far indicate I should perform a good bit better on II than I.

My question is this-
As a DO will a strong Step II "trump" a mediocre Step I, or is a marginal Step I going to kick me out of the running regardless of my Step II performance?
Thanks.

My question is this-
As a DO will a strong Step II "trump" a mediocre Step I, or is a marginal Step I going to kick me out of the running regardless of my Step II performance?
Thanks.

It totally will help and while I dont know if it would trump your Step 1 it will at the very least help balance it out. Just from the interviews offered threads you can see that a number of DOs are getting not only a good number of interviews but also interviews at impressive places. I think that EM is def one of the more DO friendly fields. This tends to be less the case in Surg and other more comp fields. the best advice take it in August, score really well. It will def help you out a lot!

Thank you all for engaging in this discussion. Your input however has sparked additional questions for me. I know I could "just do a search" but that is not as much fun as getting real time feedback.

1) Since all DO EM programs require a 1 year osteo internship, does that mean you get accepted to a DO EM program and then do the 1 year +3 at their hospital? Or do you apply for a 1 year internship at any hospital and then apply for an EM program?

2) What do you say to the program directors when they ask you why you took Comlex 1 but USMLE step 2?

3) Does this one year DO internship deter a lot of DO applicants from applying to AOA EM residencies and can it be combined with the 3 years at any program

Thanks for all the input, bear with me as I am only a first year DO student who is heavily interested in EM

BMW-



It totally will help and while I dont know if it would trump your Step 1 it will at the very least help balance it out. Just from the interviews offered threads you can see that a number of DOs are getting not only a good number of interviews but also interviews at impressive places. I think that EM is def one of the more DO friendly fields. This tends to be less the case in Surg and other more comp fields. the best advice take it in August, score really well. It will def help you out a lot!

Thank you all for engaging in this discussion. Your input however has sparked additional questions for me. I know I could "just do a search" but that is not as much fun as getting real time feedback.

1) Since all DO EM programs require a 1 year osteo internship, does that mean you get accepted to a DO EM program and then do the 1 year +3 at their hospital? Or do you apply for a 1 year internship at any hospital and then apply for an EM program?

2) What do you say to the program directors when they ask you why you took Comlex 1 but USMLE step 2?

3) Does this one year DO internship deter a lot of DO applicants from applying to AOA EM residencies and can it be combined with the 3 years at any program

Thanks for all the input, bear with me as I am only a first year DO student who is heavily interested in EM

BMW-

Most AOA EM residencies have linked specialty emphasis internships, meaning that you are automatically in for the residency and do not need to reapply.

[QUOTE=BMW19]Thank you all for engaging in this discussion. Your input however has sparked additional questions for me. I know I could "just do a search" but that is not as much fun as getting real time feedback.

1) Since all DO EM programs require a 1 year osteo internship, does that mean you get accepted to a DO EM program and then do the 1 year +3 at their hospital? Or do you apply for a 1 year internship at any hospital and then apply for an EM program?

most DO EM programs are linked, meaning you match at said hospital for internship and residency.

2) What do you say to the program directors when they ask you why you took Comlex 1 but USMLE step 2?

you still have to take Comlex 2 & 3 to get licensed

3) Does this one year DO internship deter a lot of DO applicants from applying to AOA EM residencies and can it be combined with the 3 years at any program


for some it does, however there really are some very good DO programs and if you have your foot in the door with them then it is kind of hard to pass up. of course the extra year sucks though.

Just to throw in my two cents. I believe there are about maybe a dozen quality Osteopathic EM Residencies (not meant as inflammatory just my humble opinion.)


I would agree with this statement,10-12 quality programs, then there is a steep drop off in quality from the top DO programs to the lesser ones.

I would agree with this statement,10-12 quality programs, then there is a steep drop off in quality from the top DO programs to the lesser ones.
Understanding that this is an opinion, I would appreciate a look at that list.
I have found that getting real info. about DO programs is significantly more difficult than those accredited by the ACGME.

To piggyback on BMW's questions-
If you match at an AOA/ACGME combined residency, can you sit for both boards (ABEM and ABOEM), can you choose, or does your degree dictate your board requirement?

To piggyback on BMW's questions-
If you match at an AOA/ACGME combined residency, can you sit for both boards (ABEM and ABOEM), can you choose, or does your degree dictate your board requirement?



you can sit for both

you can sit for both

Which are the dually accredited residencies?

I'd be interested in applying to those.

Which are the dually accredited residencies?

I'd be interested in applying to those.

Newark Beth Israel
PCOM Albert Einstein

I think that either the ACOEP or DO-Online websites have info on which ones are dually approved. I can't remember which.

Newark Beth Israel
PCOM Albert Einstein

I think that either the ACOEP or DO-Online websites have info on which ones are dually approved. I can't remember which.


Add:

Lansing
St. Luke's in PA

Add:

Lansing
St. Luke's in PA

Anywhere else other than in New England?

(no offense)

Anywhere else other than in New England?

(no offense)
Since none of these are in New England...none taken! :)

Isn't Arrowhead in Cali. dual?

Since none of these are in New England...none taken! :)

Well Pennsylvania and New Jersey may not technically be in New England, so let's just basically say any dually accredited residencies not in the Northeast?

When a Texan says New England, they mean anything north of Maryland and east of Ohio.

Well Pennsylvania and New Jersey may not technically be in New England, so let's just basically say any dually accredited residencies not in the Northeast?

When a Texan says New England, they mean anything north of Maryland and east of Ohio.


last time i checked lansing was in michigan

last time i checked lansing was in michigan
Actually he means anything north of Ok, east of La., and west of NM. It gets so cold everywhere else, and there's just so many dunkin' donuts!

Well Pennsylvania and New Jersey may not technically be in New England, so let's just basically say any dually accredited residencies not in the Northeast?

When a Texan says New England, they mean anything north of Maryland and east of Ohio.

As a Texan, New England to me is anything north and east of New York State. Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey...those are not New England my friend. Have you even been to these places? They are not all that bad, and not really cold.

As a Texan, New England to me is anything north and east of New York State. Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey...those are not New England my friend. Have you even been to these places? They are not all that bad, and not really cold.

Nah, never been there. I'm a fan of the Southwest & South.

I hear people up there are pretty rude and the cost of living is very high.

Not to mention I don't like snow.

A dated a girl from Maine for about a year, and she gave me all the info about the north. She moved down here for a reason.













By the way guys, I'm saying this in jest, so no need to take offense.

Isn't Arrowhead in Cali. dual?

Nope. But for some odd reason it is listed under the saem.org website under the ACGME sxn.

To piggyback on BMW's questions-
If you match at an AOA/ACGME combined residency, can you sit for both boards (ABEM and ABOEM), can you choose, or does your degree dictate your board requirement?

Does anyone know if you go though the AOA or ACGME version of the match to apply to the dual programs as a DO? Thanks.

E-

Hey guys,

This is a very interesting thread. I am not sure if it is the region of the country you are applying or what, but I submitted COMLEX scores only, and I feel as if I have a faily decent list of interviews. I am couples matching with my wife and my feeling from the interviews that we have been on, and what's up coming, is that we will be fine.

It was funny. Before I read this thread, I was just telling my wife, hey...it looks like we didn't need the USMLE afterall.

My COMLEX scores are not phenominal either. Decent, but not 99th percentile. My letters of recommendation, however are stellar.

IMHO, a few well timed rotations, and some really good letters of recommendation will get you very far.

I went to the medical student symposium as part of the SAEM conference in Manhattan this year, and after speaking with many program directors, I was told that EM is a very small community. All program directors know eachother. Therefore if you get a good letter from a program director...or two, other programs will be much more likely to "see what you're all about".

Also, for those programs that you really want, but think that it will be difficult to match there, do an away rotation and bust your ass. I don't think being a DO will hinder you in any way....at least in Emergency Medicine.

Good luck to everyone this year.

DOnut

Does anyone know if you go though the AOA or ACGME version of the match to apply to the dual programs as a DO? Thanks.

E-


To answer the above two questions. Yes, you can sit for both boards if you complete at dual accreditted (AOA/ACGME) residency.

For the second questions, it depends on the program. For example, Newark Beth Isreal requires that you go through the AOA match. Einstein in Philly wants you to go through the allo match.

Well, I applied mostly in the SE US. Maybe that was an issue, although I did get interviews. I also only did a *trial run* app to the ACGME programs as a backup to the AOA program that I really wanted, so I didn't apply to very many places. I would have added more if I'd decided to stay in the MD match. I still think that I would have gotten a better response with a USMLE score, although that is pure conjecture. :)

I agree with most of what you all are saying. But, with that said, I believe that even with the best USMLE scores, a DO degree will be a limiting factor at some EM programs. I have felt incredibly blessed and greatful to have received invites at some EM programs like Indianapolis, Mayo, UPitt, Maryland, UTSW, Emory, Christ Advocate, and Duke. But there are simply some EM programs that I believe would sooner rank an MD with subpar stats and credentials than rank a stellar DO. To me those programs are superficial and thus I am glad they are doing me the favor of not interviewing me. At least they are straightforward. There are some programs that occassionally interview DO's but never take one unless they have a bad year.

With that said, I believe Vanderbilt, Carolinas, perhaps UNM, and a few others would likely fall into the category of "give me MD or give me death". I mean I am with you Mishka, a good USMLE score (step II 262/99) will get you some very serious looks from allopathic programs, but short of being an MD, some programs just don't care. Luckily though, except for Carolinas, all the top programs are willing to interview a DO. I am not sure why Vandy thinks they are all that nestled in the middle of country music hell anyhew!! :laugh:

Just to let you know a DO I know matched at Vandi last march. So maybe country music has some love.

Just to let you know a DO I know matched at Vandi last march. So maybe country music has some love.

Not in Emergency Medicine they didn't! Perhaps in family medicine or something else. but not EM. They have no DO EM residents and never have that I know of.

Also, for those programs that you really want, but think that it will be difficult to match there, do an away rotation and bust your ass. I don't think being a DO will hinder you in any way....at least in Emergency Medicine.

DOnut

Be careful w/ this one. You guys get very few chances to do "audition" rotations. So you don't want to waste them. I did one at well known NYC program, busted my furry butt, honored the rotation and got a great letter from them but... Didn't get an interview!?!? They're pretty big into pedigree over there. Then I did an Ultrasound rotation at another program... My attending pulled me aside one day and said, "hey you're doing a great job, and everyone loves you and you would totally fit in here but... You're a DO and the higher ups will take that as a big hit against you." In my attendings defense he was pretty frustrated about it too. And no, I didn't get an interview. But this is not to say I totally wasted these rotations. I learned a BOAT load in both of them and looked like a star at my next "audition" where I wanted to match at in the end. So the moral of the story: Make your auditions count ie. make sure the program is at least sort of DO friendly before you put in your time/money or make sure they are a fantastic teaching/learning experience before you fly off.

As always, sorry for the spellig.
FG

Be careful w/ this one. You guys get very few chances to do "audition" rotations. So you don't want to waste them. I did one at well known NYC program, busted my furry butt, honored the rotation and got a great letter from them but... Didn't get an interview!?!? They're pretty big into pedigree over there. Then I did an Ultrasound rotation at another program... My attending pulled me aside one day and said, "hey you're doing a great job, and everyone loves you and you would totally fit in here but... You're a DO and the higher ups will take that as a big hit against you." In my attendings defense he was pretty frustrated about it too. And no, I didn't get an interview. But this is not to say I totally wasted these rotations. I learned a BOAT load in both of them and looked like a star at my next "audition" where I wanted to match at in the end. So the moral of the story: Make your auditions count ie. make sure the program is at least sort of DO friendly before you put in your time/money or make sure they are a fantastic teaching/learning experience before you fly off.

As always, sorry for the spellig.
FG

We get 8 months of elective rotations.

We get 8 months of elective rotations.

Thats nice but are you going to do 8 EM rotations? And during the prime audition months space tends to be a little limited. All I'm saying is spend your time wisely.

God my spelling sucks.
FG

Thats nice but are you going to do 8 EM rotations? And during the prime audition months space tends to be a little limited. All I'm saying is spend your time wisely.

God my spelling sucks.
FG

That brings up an interesting point:

How many elective rotations should you do?

Is it more important to do non-EM rotations or to do the auditions?

What would be a good balance of auditions and non-EM rotations if you get 8 months of electives?

What are the essential non-EM elective rotations to do?


Thanks!

So, what are the few "good" osteopathic EM programs???

I would also be very interested in seeing a list of "10-12 quality DO EM programs". Having rotated in a DO EM program as well as 2 allopathic EM programs, I've found a key difference which markedly defines the differences in quality. It's the simple fact that allopathic programs are built upon the foundations of the RRC guidelines. This simply means that the allopathic programs ALL have big brother looking over their shoulder to ensure that these programs have all the components to provide adequate emergency medicine training. This includes all sorts of parameters including volume, exposure to trauma, off service rotations, amount of procedures,....the list is a mile long. There are a few D.O. programs that also provide a similar experience WITHOUT RRC guidelines. However, there are many DO programs that may now be deficient in certain areas, or may be in jeopardy of falling deficient in the future without strict guidelines to adhere to. So it's not really a difference in community vs. academic setting that makes a difference. Bottom line....allopathic programs have a component of "quality control" that DO programs do not have. Again, this is not to say that some DO programs can't provide a similar training experience without set guidelines.....however, my list of those programs that do is certainly shorter than 10 or 12. This is just more information to add into your decision making process.... and by the way flemish giant...your spelling does suk.

and by the way flemish giant...your spelling does suk.

Dude, I know. Just trying to be helpful.

FG

Okay I will start by saying that this is just my list and my opinions based on my own research, rotations, and conversations.

In Order by my rank: (this is only my opinion I am no expert)

1) Albert Einstein Philly Dual accreditted Allo/Osteo
2) Beth Israel Newark Dual accreditted Allo/Osteo
3) St James Olympia Fields (Chicago)
4) St Barnabas Bronx
5) Henry Ford Warren (Detroit)
6) Arrowhead Colton, Ca
7) St. John Oakland, MI
8) OUCOM Columbus
9) Mount Sinai Miami Beach
10) Southwest Oklahoma City
11) Freeman Joplin
12) St Vincent Erie, Pa

Obviously the dual accredited use the guidelines, but all the osteo programs must comply with the ACOEP residency guidelines, which by review are quite similar to the ACEP guidelines.

Next Issue: You must decide your residency Tactic. Be realistic. Do you want to stay in one or a couple areas of the country, do you want the absolute best you can get regardless of location, or do you want only an osteo or only an allo program? I chose to focus in one region of the country regardless of Osteo/Allo, with some other areas of the country for back-up (momma didn't raise no fool!)

If you chose this regional tactic your osteo options may/may not be limited.(osteo options in Michigan and Ohio are almost limitless. No Osteo EM in Texas)
If Osteo, do rotations early, like July, Aug. Sept. (most interviews are quite early compared to allo)
If Allo try Aug, Sept, Oct, Nov. (allo interviews tend to be later)

I did Three Audition rotations all in the same area. I did two EM and One IM subspecialty (as I am applying IM/EM and EM) as well as an EM my third year at my base hospital. You might want to do three electice EM, unless your required EM is one of your desired (such as OSUdoc08 in OKC).

Try different settings, I did one regional center, one community, one academic/tertiary/LevelI trauma center. You'll find which is the best fit, and probably learn a ton as well. I liked the community center the best.

Then fill in with rotations that improve your Knowledge/Skills - such as if you will do auditions later (want allo) do an Early month (July/Aug) of Gas/Rads,Surgery/plastic surgery, or Ortho - attendings will be impressed you can intubate/suture the face/do double or triple layer closure/cast/identify fractures/reduce dislocations.

Take ACLS prior to EM rotations - this knowledge impresses attendings as well. Rotate at the programs you are less interested in first to gain knowledge/skills for the programs you are more interested in later. (July = least interest, Oct/Nov. = most interest)

Lastly, if you are trying to stay in one area you may be able to only apply to one or two osteopathic programs, as any other osteo picks (out of that area)will pull you out of the Allo match and thus that area for your allo picks.

Choose the best program for you regardless of "the hype." I found one big name program to have very poor teaching and sub par residents compared to a "no name" osteopathic program. (In my humble opinion) Residency is a personal choice and you will only become your best at a place that fulfills your specific personal requirements.

The Mish

I absolutely positively agree with the above post. I even agree with his list of programs. There are definitely VERY strong osteopathic programs out there. Some of which are MUCH better than a few allo programs. I can sight examples, but you never know who's reading....and who knows you. PM me for details.

I am completing my 3rd EM rotation now. Personally I think 2 rotations is plenty. 3 is a little overkill. Pick a place where you feel you will be happiest and get the type of experience you desire. If you want a very busy urban trauma center, don't rank a small level 2. If you would rather the slower pace teaching and labs at smaller programs, then hey...do that.

Hope everyone finds what they are looking for.

Peace

DOnut

Here is what I emailed to another student with same the same question as yours:

If you want MD program and you want to do that right after your 4th
year (without doing an internship, like I did, then know that you
will not be able to do this in Michigan. Michigan requires an AOA
internship).

However, if you are interested in a ACGME program (I will just call
it MD program from now on) then it really does not make that much of
a
difference if you have rotated at the specific program or not. I got
into my program without doing a rotation here or even any rotations
in the illinois area. What most MD programs look for are your
letters of rec (most want SLOR http://www.cordem.org/slor.htm ), your
deans letter, your board scores, and your class rank.

If you are interested in Calif (I am from San Diego (UCSD)myself so
know what you mean about the snow), then I highly suggest taking and
doing really well on the USMLE... (this was the main reason I did not
get many interviews in Calif...I have only taken COMLEX and did
pretty well on it but most of the programs in calif wanted USMLE
scores. This was not the case with many of the other programs that I
interviewed at, outside of Calif.

One other thing about MD programs is that if you do rotate at their
program and you do really well you might get a "courtesy" interview
that you would not have gotten if they did not know you.. However,
doing 600 ED rotations is definitely a negative thing on your
application ... at the most do 3 ED rotations and even with these see
if you can do a different rotation than just regular ED after you
have completed your first required ED(i.e. EMS rotation, ED research
rotation, ED Sub-Internship, Peds ED etc...)Make sure you do really
really well and get as many SLORs as you can when you do your core ED
rotation.

During your rotations be nice to the residents... most programs
(almost all programs) will have their current residents interview and
choose the new residents..

If you want to do a DO residency (I do not know much about the
process) but I can tell you that when I was a student it seems as if
they placed alot of emphasis on people that had rotated in their
facility and almost exclusively interviewed only the ones that they
knew... (this is definitely different on the MD side)...

As far as Michigan I spent my whole third year there.. mostly at
POH.... Unless things have changed alot since then, and they might
have, I would not do many rotations there.. The patient volume is
way too low and they have way too many residents for the number of
patients ... you will have a easy rotation but not too educational...
Small hospitals are good in that they have a much easier schedule and
you will get more attention from the attending but you will not be
able to do as many procedures (as not many get done in these
hospitals)... you will generally learn more if there is a strong
residency program in the rotation that you are doing as residents
will be your primary teachers....

Well I am being paged now....so I have to go.. sorry for all the
typos (I had to type this email really really fast)....

Okay I will start by saying that this is just my list and my opinions based on my own research, rotations, and conversations.

In Order by my rank: (this is only my opinion I am no expert)

1) Albert Einstein Philly Dual accreditted Allo/Osteo
2) Beth Israel Newark Dual accreditted Allo/Osteo
3) St James Olympia Fields (Chicago)
4) St Barnabas Bronx
5) Henry Ford Warren (Detroit)
6) Arrowhead Colton, Ca
7) St. John Oakland, MI
8) OUCOM Columbus
9) Mount Sinai Miami Beach
10) Southwest Oklahoma City
11) Freeman Joplin
12) St Vincent Erie, Pa



The Mish


I would add Lehigh Valley Osteopathic EM program to the list. We are definitely a strong academic program. It is a hidden secret but residency is just phenomenol. I am currently a pgy-1 and would have to agree that we are on par and better than half of all allopathic residencies out there. The strong financial funding makes that possible.

Grand rounds monthly includes national speaker from around the country. We have had ACEP presidents lecture and speak. This past month was the program director from Maryland. Our faculty are a good mix of DO and MD trained. MDs from Harvard, John Hopkins, etc.

Albert Einsteins EM residents rotate through our Trauma 1 EM facility for the magnitude of blunt trauma we get. We are the #1 trauma center in PA this year. This is truly not a rinky dinky program. The environment is collegial and friendly. Facilities are brand new, up to date, and computerized. Lehigh Valley hospital is ranked in US new top 100 in many areas!

I am happy to be here. The rank list last year went 19 deep for only 12 spots. Compared to St. Lukes Hospital, our adjacent DO/EM program, the match list went much higher. All of my fellow interns are truly exceptionally smart and talented.

If you are considering a quality program, and want to stay DO, I would highly reccommend Lehigh Valley EM program. Take a look at the website lvhemres.com.

1. Lehigh Valley
2. Genesys
3. Mount Clemens
4. Lansing
5. CCOM- Chicago
6. Doctor's- Columbus
7. Einstein
8. Beth Israel

these are the ones i applied to anyway and r in no particular order yet, still have to see what kind of flexibility my hubby's job has. i would avoid the d.o. st. john as they are on probation and residents that i knew fled the program. henry ford bi-county has reputation for being quite weak.

Okay I will start by saying that this is just my list and my opinions based on my own research, rotations, and conversations.

In Order by my rank: (this is only my opinion I am no expert)

1) Albert Einstein Philly Dual accreditted Allo/Osteo
2) Beth Israel Newark Dual accreditted Allo/Osteo
3) St James Olympia Fields (Chicago)
4) St Barnabas Bronx
5) Henry Ford Warren (Detroit)
6) Arrowhead Colton, Ca
7) St. John Oakland, MI
8) OUCOM Columbus
9) Mount Sinai Miami Beach
10) Southwest Oklahoma City
11) Freeman Joplin
12) St Vincent Erie, Pa

Obviously the dual accredited use the guidelines, but all the osteo programs must comply with the ACOEP residency guidelines, which by review are quite similar to the ACEP guidelines.

Next Issue: You must decide your residency Tactic. Be realistic. Do you want to stay in one or a couple areas of the country, do you want the absolute best you can get regardless of location, or do you want only an osteo or only an allo program? I chose to focus in one region of the country regardless of Osteo/Allo, with some other areas of the country for back-up (momma didn't raise no fool!)

If you chose this regional tactic your osteo options may/may not be limited.(osteo options in Michigan and Ohio are almost limitless. No Osteo EM in Texas)
If Osteo, do rotations early, like July, Aug. Sept. (most interviews are quite early compared to allo)
If Allo try Aug, Sept, Oct, Nov. (allo interviews tend to be later)

I did Three Audition rotations all in the same area. I did two EM and One IM subspecialty (as I am applying IM/EM and EM) as well as an EM my third year at my base hospital. You might want to do three electice EM, unless your required EM is one of your desired (such as OSUdoc08 in OKC).

Try different settings, I did one regional center, one community, one academic/tertiary/LevelI trauma center. You'll find which is the best fit, and probably learn a ton as well. I liked the community center the best.

Then fill in with rotations that improve your Knowledge/Skills - such as if you will do auditions later (want allo) do an Early month (July/Aug) of Gas/Rads,Surgery/plastic surgery, or Ortho - attendings will be impressed you can intubate/suture the face/do double or triple layer closure/cast/identify fractures/reduce dislocations.

Take ACLS prior to EM rotations - this knowledge impresses attendings as well. Rotate at the programs you are less interested in first to gain knowledge/skills for the programs you are more interested in later. (July = least interest, Oct/Nov. = most interest)

Lastly, if you are trying to stay in one area you may be able to only apply to one or two osteopathic programs, as any other osteo picks (out of that area)will pull you out of the Allo match and thus that area for your allo picks.

Choose the best program for you regardless of "the hype." I found one big name program to have very poor teaching and sub par residents compared to a "no name" osteopathic program. (In my humble opinion) Residency is a personal choice and you will only become your best at a place that fulfills your specific personal requirements.

The Mish

Add:

Lansing
St. Luke's in PA

Thought I would make a correction:

St. Luke's in Bethlehem, Pa is not dually accredited. They have both allopathic and osteopathic programs at the same hospital, but not a dually accredited one. Subtle, but important difference.

To my knowledge (current as of about 6 months ago), the only dually accredited EM programs are Albert Einstein in Philly; Sparrow Hospital in East Lansing, Mi; and Newark Beth Israel Medical Center in Newark, NJ.

This is subject to change at any time, given the fanciful nature of the AOA...

Sorry if this has been corrected already..

jd

First of all, good luck to everyone. As usual, there's some very good (and accurate) discussion taking place here on the SDN. From my own admittedly humble and narrow perspective, it is foolish to focus only on the COMLEX/USMLE question. If programs discriminate against you because of a 'hard to interpret' COMLEX score, then it seems reasonable to assume that the DO degree itself may function as yet another obstacle. Let's face it; application is tough.. the travel arrangements and selection process is even tougher. Applicants lack time and money enough to satisfy every single program director's concern. Talk to Quinn and other DOs on this forum, and you're likely to discover that, yes, some prejudice does exist w/regard to selection of osteopathic candidates. Fortunately, the EM specialty is soo well penetrated with DOs that the issue of comlex vs usmle is a non issue. I did quite a bit of my own research on this topic prior to going through the nrmp/acgme match. There are a few programs who admittedly don't give a damn about a comlex score. The majority of EM residencies, however, tend to evaluate candidates on a much grander scale. The application process at UMaryland, for example, is representative of the discussions that are currently taking place across the country. Though one of our associate pd's is a DO, most residency higher-ups are acutely aware of DO/COMLEX issues and do not take conscious steps to minimize their 'confusion.' Board scores and class rank function merely as 'screening' indicators of the applicant's ability. A COMLEX score of 90%, though not direclty comparable with a USMLE score, states volumes about a particular candidates qualifications. Poor board scores are just that, and function to move someone's ERAS papers to the bottom of the pile. My point is simply this: as a fourth year medical student, you've got sooo many more issues to consider than whether or not a program prefers comlex over the usmle. Though taking both boards re-affirms your scholastic aptitude, it says little about your personality and suitability as an intern. You still need to do your research and talk to the individual program directors. Taking both examinations may get your app noticed at a few more schools, but this matters little in the end game of the match. Talk with PDs and faculty at your local programs and at the regional SAEM/AAEM/ACEP conferences and ask about COMLEX scores directly. I was pleasantly surprised at just how few programs told me that completion of the USMLE was required for consideration. If you've got extra time, extra money, and frequent flyer miles, then this whole discussion will quickly fade away into irrelevance. In summary, if the original poster's heart is set on Vanderbilt , Carolines, or certain NYC programs, then you'd better start saving some cash. If not, let your academic accomplishments and interview skills speak for themselves. Good luck!

this maybe late but, im a TY at swedish covenant hospital in chicago, and they are in the process of being approved for a DO EM residency starting in the year 2007. the paperwork is still in process, but they expect to take 4-6 residents a year.

swedish is supposedly going to be the new DO hospital in chicago, as their affiliation with midwestern is getting stronger as the days go on.

this maybe late but, im a TY at swedish covenant hospital in chicago, and they are in the process of being approved for a DO EM residency starting in the year 2007. the paperwork is still in process, but they expect to take 4-6 residents a year.

swedish is supposedly going to be the new DO hospital in chicago, as their affiliation with midwestern is getting stronger as the days go on.


Affiliation with a DO school does not make a hospital a "DO" hospital. If it was a freestanding hospital with MD's before, it will still have MD's. It may very well be a new training hospital for the DO school CCOM but it is not a DO hospital just because of such.

Affiliation with a DO school does not make a hospital a "DO" hospital. If it was a freestanding hospital with MD's before, it will still have MD's. It may very well be a new training hospital for the DO school CCOM but it is not a DO hospital just because of such.

i stand corrected. semantics semantics semantics.

Where do FMG/IMG MD's fall into the mix. Are they competetive for allopatheic residencies if they have good Step 1 and 2 scores? Do PD's tend to take DO's over them?

Where do FMG/IMG MD's fall into the mix. Are they competetive for allopatheic residencies if they have good Step 1 and 2 scores? Do PD's tend to take DO's over them?

EM in general pretty friendly to DO's. The only way I would think this would happen is in ACGME programs that don't typically accept DO's.