Just curious. Why do Medical students hate on dental students? Moreover, why does that hate carry on to medical doctors hating on Dentists. Is it just that dentists make more money easily or is it something else. Please feel free to explain this phenomena.

Personally, I've never hated on someone, can you explain that phenomena? Now spitting, that I sometimes do on people.

I didn't realize there was animosity between med students and dental students. I think dentists are cool. They do something important that I could never do, and they make a good living. What's to hate?

I didn't realize there were any bad feelings either. I know a guy who just switched from pre-med to pre-dent and it didn't change my opinion of him at all. It's a job I would never want/never could do.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=242910&page=1

Run a search, you'll get a ****load of threads and kickass responces.

Main thing is that some medical students(bloody tools) think that because we only learn about the teeth we are inferior students and will become inferior doctors.

I know several people who decided on dentistry rather than medicine either because the hours/work involved with medical school and medical practice seemed to strenuous or because it was too difficult to get into med school and their grades weren't high enough. I've also known people to choose optometry or podiatry for the same reasons. There is nothing wrong with choosing dentistry/opto/podi for these reasons, but you can see why this might lead to med students developing a superiority complex.

I'm sure plenty of people go into dental/opto/podi out of pure interest and that many of those in these professions could have gotten into med school if they so desired, but that doesn't change the fact that these professions are sometimes "back-up" plans for med school rejects or pre meds with low science GPAs.

Backup plans that are rapidly changing to first choices.

my sister just accepted to dental school (see her smile to the side) and I love her SOOOOO much and am so proud of her. I have no problem with dentists at all!

Somebody buy me dental insurance so I can see a dentist. :D One of my teeth hurts sometimes when I chew.

But yeah, I don't feel any animosity towards dentists or anything. As an aside, my dad thinks it's weird and absurd that dentistry is not part of medical school. I never even thought about it before, but now it does seem like a good question of why. I

That's a pretty good smile..where's the rest of her :cool:

I think that all the negative feedback about DOs versus MDs, dentists versus mds, pharmacy versus MDS, teachers versus professors, science versus a liberal arts degree, etc etc happens mostly in undergrad school. By the time we all become (hopefully) professionals, there isn't as many class distinctions only perhaps financially.

I'm sure plenty of people go into dental/opto/podi out of pure interest and that many of those in these professions could have gotten into med school if they so desired, but that doesn't change the fact that these professions are sometimes "back-up" plans for med school rejects or pre meds with low science GPAs.
It totally depends on the dental school. The dental students at our dental school (UASOD) are quite brilliant, and are equivalent to med students w.r.t. grades and test scores. Quite frankly, you can't get into UASOD if you couldn't have qualified for our med school, either. The course pre-reqs are higher than for med students here, and they have EC requirements that go beyond those for med students. At least at the top tier dental schools, there is no one enrolled who had to use dentistry as a backup because they couldn't qualify for medical school.
Also, here at UAB, our dental students take the same tests from the same professors (as the med students) in most of the core classes. For several courses they sit in the same lectures as the med students.

However, I am not certain that this is the case everywhere: I found a listing of matriculant gpas & dat scores by dental school, and noticed that there is a fair amount of variability in student quality across dental schools. From the looks of it, some schools (looked like about half to me) do have average dental matriculant stats that don't look like average med student stats.

I tend to think the lack of respect for dental medicine is due to the fact that many MD students
a) don't really know what dentists do, or how they are trained.
b) still believe that there is nothing as academically or personally challenging as going to medical school.

I think medicine is more interesting and glamorous than dentistry, but that doesn't mean that dentistry is easier to do or to get into.

p.s. Alabama was #1 in the nation this year (2005) for part 2 of the national dental boards. Woo!

It's about the same where I go. The dental students take the exact same exams as the medical for the first 2 years, and thus far their grades have been superior.Every single one of the dental students at my school would of had to have dentistry as their first choice, there is no 'backup' as the requirements for the dental school is higher than that of the medical.
I know there are some here that didn't choose dentistry because of the higher tuition fees for the clinicals, and the fact that we have to purchase our own equipment at the start of year 2(around 4000USD)and it's a pretty big stretch for most locals.

At the end of the day, when we are all getting drunk after graduating, who really gives a ****.It then amounts to who is buying the next round of beers!

It's about the same where I go. The dental students take the exact same exams as the medical for the first 2 years, and thus far their grades have been superior.Every single one of the dental students at my school would of had to have dentistry as their first choice, there is no 'backup' as the requirements for the dental school is higher than that of the medical.
I know there are some here that didn't choose dentistry because of the higher tuition fees for the clinicals, and the fact that we have to purchase our own equipment at the start of year 2(around 4000USD)and it's a pretty big stretch for most locals.

At the end of the day, when we are all getting drunk after graduating, who really gives a ****.It then amounts to who is buying the next round of beers!

I like that mentality. Dentists have it made. Great lifestyle, great salary etc.

I like that mentality. Dentists have it made. Great lifestyle, great salary etc.

That's another reason docs might "disdain" dentists. They think dentists are taking the easy way out. I know I briefly considered going into dentistry because I was afraid of the internship year, taking call, and the hard lifestyle associated with practicing medicine. I thought dentistry might be a similar alternative where I wouldn't have to work quite as hard but could still make a good living.

Just curious. Why do Medical students hate on dental students? Moreover, why does that hate carry on to medical doctors hating on Dentists. Is it just that dentists make more money easily or is it something else. Please feel free to explain this phenomena.

I think its a historical artifact that dentists aren't MDs, dentistry in the past (I'm talking a long time ago before medicine and dentistry were well grounded in the basic sciences) has been considered a completely separate discipline to medicine. Dentists spend the first two years of schooling essentially learning the same things as med students. If there were no separate schools of dentistry, it could easily be assumed that dental residencies for md's would be as competitive as radiology, derm, ophthalmology and other "cushy and lifestyle" specialties that are highly desired.

I think medicine is more interesting and glamorous than dentistry...
Excuse me for a moment. I have to go do 2 rectals and a pelvic. When I get back tell me more about how glamorous medicine is.

Just curious. Why do Medical students hate on dental students? Moreover, why does that hate carry on to medical doctors hating on Dentists. Is it just that dentists make more money easily or is it something else. Please feel free to explain this phenomena.

Because they like to floss.

Just curious. Why do Medical students hate on dental students? Moreover, why does that hate carry on to medical doctors hating on Dentists. Is it just that dentists make more money easily or is it something else. Please feel free to explain this phenomena.

the fact is that some pre-dent and dental students suffer from "short man" disease because of the stigmas associated with the profession. You will find that most MD and MD students haven't heard of this stigma, but most dents have- mainly because at one time they were premed. They feel like they constantly have to assert superiority because most docs make more money, have more prestige, and given more respect by the public.

Somebody buy me dental insurance so I can see a dentist. :D One of my teeth hurts sometimes when I chew.

Are you being serious? Get it fixed before there's nothing left to do but pull it. This is the dental equivalent of those ER patients who say "I have this substernal chest pain that radiates down my arm, but I haven't done anything about it because I don't have insurance."


As an aside, my dad thinks it's weird and absurd that dentistry is not part of medical school. I never even thought about it before, but now it does seem like a good question of why.
There are a few people out there who believe in this model of dental training. There are several problems with this. One is that the hand skills required of a dentist are much more precise and tedious than those of MDs such as surgeons. Dentists measure things in tenths of a millimeter. The first year of dental school weeds out the people who just can't develop those hand skills. In contrast, there are no manual-dexterity requirements or tests for any med students applying to surgery, but they all somehow seem to learn to operate anyway. If a medical school graduate went into dentistry, you just can't teach manual dexterity in a fast-paced residency setting where you're already assumed to have a basic set of skills and are treating patients without much supervision.

Also, med students know absolutely nothing about dentistry or the mouth in general. An MD residency in dentistry would require at least a year or 2 of just books and labwork to make up for what dental students have already done. You're looking at at least a 3-4 year residency after 4 years of med school to reach the same goal that the current system provides in only 4 years of dental school.

Just my 2 cents.

I never heard of one having any problems with the other...the two are different branches of healthcare not either/or and certainly not in competition...I think some people just have problems with PEOPLE...

Are you being serious? Get it fixed before there's nothing left to do but pull it. This is the dental equivalent of those ER patients who say "I have this substernal chest pain that radiates down my arm, but I haven't done anything about it because I don't have insurance."


There are a few people out there who believe in this model of dental training. There are several problems with this. One is that the hand skills required of a dentist are much more precise and tedious than those of MDs such as surgeons. Dentists measure things in tenths of a millimeter. The first year of dental school weeds out the people who just can't develop those hand skills. In contrast, there are no manual-dexterity requirements or tests for any med students applying to surgery, but they all somehow seem to learn to operate anyway. If a medical school graduate went into dentistry, you just can't teach manual dexterity in a fast-paced residency setting where you're already assumed to have a basic set of skills and are treating patients without much supervision.

Also, med students know absolutely nothing about dentistry or the mouth in general. An MD residency in dentistry would require at least a year or 2 of just books and labwork to make up for what dental students have already done. You're looking at at least a 3-4 year residency after 4 years of med school to reach the same goal that the current system provides in only 4 years of dental school.

Just my 2 cents.

the reason it is separate mainly for historical resons... but when u think about it, it makes sense. dentists do not need to have the extensive knowledge base of the whole body.... they need some, but not to the same extent as the average MD. they just mainly need to know the mouth.

Medicine is a profession of egos for better or worse. Regardless of what you do, there will always be someone there with a thousand reasons why their specialty is better, harder, and in general, superior to yours. Part of that comes from loving what they do and the other part usually comes from ignorance as to what others do. I always get a good laugh out of it.

the reason it is separate mainly for historical resons... but when u think about it, it makes sense. dentists do not need to have the extensive knowledge base of the whole body.... they need some, but not to the same extent as the average MD. they just mainly need to know the mouth.
This is a great post by someone who obviously knows everything dental school entails. Do you even know what you're talking about here?

This is a great post by someone who obviously knows everything dental school entails. Do you even know what you're talking about here?

If you think that unoriginal's grasp of the situation is wrong, don't you think that it would be more helpful to enlighten him or her, rather than spew some sarcastic diatribe? Believe it or not, some people come here to learn and it is possible that those with preconceived notions can be swayed by careful argument. Sarcasm, however, rarely promotes positive results. I should know; I'm frequently guilty. :o

Medicine is a profession of egos for better or worse. Regardless of what you do, there will always be someone there with a thousand reasons why their specialty is better, harder, and in general, superior to yours. Part of that comes from loving what they do and the other part usually comes from ignorance as to what others do. I always get a good laugh out of it.

Perfect example of this above (unoriginal).

This is a great post by someone who obviously knows everything dental school entails. Do you even know what you're talking about here?

i did not say they only need to have a knowledge of the mouth; just mostly. i do understand that they must be able to understand how various drugs affect the rest of the body and how certain disease of the mouth might affect the rest of the body (and vice versa). however, they do not need the knowledge of the rest of the body to the extent that the average MD does. thus, it would be a waste for a dentist to have the training that medical school, internship, and residency entails. i am not claiming to be an expert here, just pointing out what i have found to be true.

the fact is that some pre-dent and dental students suffer from "short man" disease because of the stigmas associated with the profession. You will find that most MD and MD students haven't heard of this stigma, but most dents have- mainly because at one time they were premed. They feel like they constantly have to assert superiority because most docs make more money, have more prestige, and given more respect by the public.
You seem to be a real authority on this issue. Did you go medical as a backup after not getting into dental? ;)

Excuse me for a moment. I have to go do 2 rectals and a pelvic. When I get back tell me more about how glamorous medicine is.
...I think I've found my newest quotable.

...I think I've found my newest quotable.
Ya, that's what I tell patients when they say that working with the foot/ankle is "disgusting"! :laugh:

You seem to be a real authority on this issue. Did you go medical as a backup after not getting into dental? ;)

ha no. but dental school was a pretty serious backup if i did not get into medical school, as it was for most of the premed people (or law school). so, naturally i did my research and shadowed in both fields. that, or law school. well, i was merely sharing my views. do you disagree? i have yet to have anyone point out what was wrong with what i said? perhaps someone can correct me if i am totally wrong... :confused:

Well...I'll chime in with personal experience. I'm and pharmacist married for 30 years to a dentist. We met in school when we were taking classes with the medical students (yes....all three schools took classes together for much of the first two years!!!) Only a few in each of our classes were folks who previously had applied to medical school - most were like us and wanted to be pharmacists or dentists. The early years are all alike - biochemistry, histology, microbiology - but, when I was taking physical chemistry, he was taking a course on dental materials and medicine was taking a course on physical exams. Our third & fourth years - for all of us were clinical - in our own specialities. Professionally, we know lots of dentists and physicians. Neither of us wants to do the other jobs. We know 2 MD/DDS individuals - one is a head/neck surgeon and the other is an oral pathologist. My husband takes his own call - he actually went in to see 2 emergencies today - so you can't avoid that. My experience with the many dentists I know is they have a few things in common - they all love gadgets! (dental and otherwise!), love to use their hands to work on stuff and generally enjoy life. They do have to worry about their business because their equipment is so very expensive, but they rarely lament about the state of healthcare. Hope this helps!

Excuse me for a moment. I have to go do 2 rectals and a pelvic. When I get back tell me more about how glamorous medicine is.
Glamour has nothing to do with how much fun or pleasant somehting *actually* is. Glamour has to do with perceptions.

My partner is a dentist already, and I am just an accepted MD applicant. Yet I already get more respect from many people that we meet. (He is a male, so the respect isn't a gender thing.) Our society glamorizes medicine, and does not glamorize dentistry. If it did, Grey's anatomy & the MANY other shows on TV about medically related things would be about DMDs, instead of MDs. Respect for MDs has gone down in the last 50 years, but the profession still garners a huge amount of public interest and respect.

Glamour has nothing to do with how much fun or pleasant somehting *actually* is. Glamour has to do with perceptions.

My partner is a dentist already, and I am just an accepted MD applicant. Yet I already get more respect from many people that we meet. (He is a male, so the respect isn't a gender thing.) Our society glamorizes medicine, and does not glamorize dentistry. If it did, Grey's anatomy & the MANY other shows on TV about medically related things would be about DMDs, instead of MDs. Respect for MDs has gone down in the last 50 years, but the profession still garners a huge amount of public interest and respect.
This reads suspiciously like you're lecturing a practicing physician about how he ought to feel toward his own profession.

i did not say they only need to have a knowledge of the mouth; just mostly. i do understand that they must be able to understand how various drugs affect the rest of the body and how certain disease of the mouth might affect the rest of the body (and vice versa). however, they do not need the knowledge of the rest of the body to the extent that the average MD does. thus, it would be a waste for a dentist to have the training that medical school, internship, and residency entails. i am not claiming to be an expert here, just pointing out what i have found to be true.
My comment was referring less to the post quoted here, and more to the professional short-guy syndrome you cited in your original post. In three years of dental school, I can count exactly one time I've heard someone from school say he wished he'd gone into medicine. I agree that dentists in practice don't routinely employ the entire body of medical knowledge, but what specialist *does*? You've heard the one about what orthopods think the heart's function is, right?

In short, I think the stereotype of the dentist & his inferiority complex, like all foolish overgeneralizations, was invented & is maintained by the people who benefit from it--in this case, the thriving subpopulation of rank-obsessed overachievers within the collective pre-med & med school student body.

This reads suspiciously like you're lecturing a practicing physician about how he ought to feel about his own profession.
It wasn't meant to be a lecture about how he should feel. It WAS meant to clarify the fact that we were operating under 2 different uses of the word 'glamour.'

The implication of his reply to my original post was that I believed that practicing medicine was glamorous--in a way that it isn't, given the specifics of actually interacting with patients--under a definition that would mean I was either misinformed or a fool.

If dentistry were taught within the scope of med school, it would be a highly sought after specialty by med students. You guys are all killing yourselves as it is over derm residencies, and for what? To pop zits? Drain boils?

If dentistry were taught within the scope of med school, it would be a highly sought after specialty by med students. You guys are all killing yourselves as it is over derm residencies, and for what? To pop zits? Drain boils?

"Pimple Popper, MD!"

-Jerry Seinfeld

Also, med students know absolutely nothing about dentistry or the mouth in general.

Just my 2 cents.

we know absolutely nothing about the mouth? are you kidding?

if you go to the university of medicine and DENTISTRY of new jersey as a medical student you will definitely learn about the mouth and dentistry.

by the way, we should definitely think about learning something about the mouth as only 14% of the population regularly sees a dentist (i.e. if docs aren't doing oral care then the pt suffers and doesn't get the proper referral/care to/from a dentist).

-J

Another stupid M.D./D.O. vs. D.D.S./D.M.D. thread. :thumbdown

I think we all know the answer to the OPs questions, since they are common sense. I can't believe we feed into this.

:thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown

Another stupid M.D./D.O. vs. D.D.S./D.M.D. thread. :thumbdown

I think we all know the answer to the OPs questions, since they are common sense. I can't believe we feed into this.

:thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown

I agree. I dont understand why people seem to think that their carreer defines character and integrity. Who cares what you do if you enjoy it and do it well?

If dentistry were taught within the scope of med school, it would be a highly sought after specialty by med students. You guys are all killing yourselves as it is over derm residencies, and for what? To pop zits? Drain boils?

yeah and breathing bad breath & scratching teeth is much better? :laugh:

It wasn't meant to be a lecture about how he should feel. It WAS meant to clarify the fact that we were operating under 2 different uses of the word 'glamour.'

The implication of his reply to my original post was that I believed that practicing medicine was glamorous--in a way that it isn't, given the specifics of actually interacting with patients--under a definition that would mean I was either misinformed or a fool.
There may be a public misperception that medicine is more exciting than dentistry. I can even understand if you call that perception glamour. What I was pointing out is that physicians know better (at least they should) that that perception is bogus. I work in a place that is very much like a bus station with drunks and junkies and so on. I saw my dentist the other day and his office is clad in marble with classical music coming out of the speakers, DVDs for patients and wall to wall carpeting. It's like being at a painful day spa. Even the most "glamorous" medicine there is, which could arguably be being a plastic surgeon in Vegas, is not what it seems. A plastics guy I know once described what he does as "Spending day after day hanging bags of saline on narcissistic, anorexic strippers."

No matter what the public thinks medicine is not more glamorous than dentistry. And take it from an ER doc, the public are idiots.

we know absolutely nothing about the mouth? are you kidding?
Of course I'm not kidding. Other than 32 teeth and one tongue.

I really find it interesting to read how often MD's or Pre-MD's think that DMD/DDS students originally wanted to practice medicine but because they couldn't get into med school chose dentistry as a backup. I don't get this. Could it be that dentists are smarter for not wanting to deal with medical insurance? or maybe they didn't feel like being on call dealing with uninsured people at 3 am, maybe the dentists enjoy being with their family more and having set hours. Maybe it's owning their own business vs. working at a hospital. Maybe it's because on average dentists make more money than physicians. Maybe MD's don't realize that dentistry is a medical specialty much like opthamology, or podiatry. You know I really feel for people like unoriginal who don't realize that pre-DDS/DMD students like what they do and unoriginal should be happy that is the case, if it weren't all those much more highly qualified students would be MD's leaving him out in the cold.
I am great friends with many preMD's and these remarks are only directed towards people who think dental students couldn't hack it in med school. What is it that makes med school more difficult than dental school? And I don't want to hear residencies because more dental students than ever are doing AEGD/GPR's.

I really find it interesting to read how often MD's or Pre-MD's think that DMD/DDS students originally wanted to practice medicine but because they couldn't get into med school chose dentistry as a backup. I don't get this. Could it be that dentists are smarter for not wanting to deal with medical insurance? or maybe they didn't feel like being on call dealing with uninsured people at 3 am, maybe the dentists enjoy being with their family more and having set hours. Maybe it's owning their own business vs. working at a hospital. Maybe it's because on average dentists make more money than physicians. Maybe MD's don't realize that dentistry is a medical specialty much like opthamology, or podiatry. You know I really feel for people like unoriginal who don't realize that pre-DDS/DMD students like what they do and unoriginal should be happy that is the case, if it weren't all those much more highly qualified students would be MD's leaving him out in the cold.
I am great friends with many preMD's and these remarks are only directed towards people who think dental students couldn't hack it in med school. What is it that makes med school more difficult than dental school? And I don't want to hear residencies because more dental students than ever are doing AEGD/GPR's.

hey look, here's the "short guy" i was talking about in my previous post. ha ha. not one thing you listed is true. i never said that every dentist at one time want to be an MD, but there is a fairly good proportion that did and there is a fairly good amount of premeds that use dentistry, law, and grad school as backup plans. These are simple facts. The GPA and test score requirements to get into the average dental/law/grad school (not every school- the average one) are far lower than the average medical school requirements.

Probably the best reason for someone for choosing medicine over dentistry would be the sheer number of options available with a MD compared to that of a DDS. The best reason for someone to pick dentistry over medicine is that they surely know that they would be happy working with teeth for the rest of their life and who see their job as only a job that's only purpose is to make cash. You listed a number of generalizations that just aren't always true. There are many medical specialities that offer the same lifestyle as a dentist. The kicker is that their avg income is about 3 times that of a dentist. In fact, if you check just about any statistics the avg physician will make at least 2 times that of a dentist. Not all physicians work in a hospital setting (i thought this was obvious). Not all physicians take call. Not all physicians work outragous hours. The benefit of medicine is that it offers this diversity.

Perhaps after a couple more years of undergrad you will gain a better understanding. As for how medicine is harder than dental school, I cannot give any definitive answers. It doesn't really matter. I would reckon to bet there are some dental programs that are pretty rigorous. However, we have 2 dentists in our class who are going to medical school because they were unsatisfied with dentistry. They both say that the tests we are given are much more detailed oriented. The last 2 years of medical school is spent working many, many hours in clinics and hospitals. The information is vast and something that cannot be simply mastered in 4 years, such as dentistry. The disease and sickness that can simply be treated by 3rd or 4th year students (such is the case with dental school where 3rd and 4th year students are able to do many of the procedures without much training). The main benefit of medicine (it's breadth) also makes it quite challenging.

hey look, here's the "short guy" i was talking about in my previous post. ha ha. not one thing you listed is true. i never said that every dentist at one time want to be an MD, but there is a fairly good proportion that did and there is a fairly good amount of premeds that use dentistry, law, and grad school as backup plans. These are simple facts. The GPA and test score requirements to get into the average dental/law/grad school (not every school- the average one) are far lower than the average medical school requirements.

Probably the best reason for someone for choosing medicine over dentistry would be the sheer number of options available with a MD compared to that of a DDS. The best reason for someone to pick dentistry over medicine is that they surely know that they would be happy working with teeth for the rest of their life and who see their job as only a job that's only purpose is to make cash. You listed a number of generalizations that just aren't always true. There are many medical specialities that offer the same lifestyle as a dentist. The kicker is that their avg income is about 3 times that of a dentist. In fact, if you check just about any statistics the avg physician will make at least 2 times that of a dentist. Not all physicians work in a hospital setting (i thought this was obvious). Not all physicians take call. Not all physicians work outragous hours. The benefit of medicine is that it offers this diversity.

Perhaps after a couple more years of undergrad you will gain a better understanding. As for how medicine is harder than dental school, I cannot give any definitive answers. It doesn't really matter. I would reckon to bet there are some dental programs that are pretty rigorous. However, we have 2 dentists in our class who are going to medical school because they were unsatisfied with dentistry. They both say that the tests we are given are much more detailed oriented. The last 2 years of medical school is spent working many, many hours in clinics and hospitals. The information is vast and something that cannot be simply mastered in 4 years, such as dentistry. The disease and sickness that can simply be treated by 3rd or 4th year students (such is the case with dental school where 3rd and 4th year students are able to do many of the procedures without much training). The main benefit of medicine (it's breadth) also makes it quite challenging.

I find your username and the content of your post rather ironic. Whatever you need to sleep at night. The world is full of egos.

You guys heard the joke right? What do you call a pre-medical student who doesn't get into medical school? ...a dentist. haha... jk. I'm in Pre-Medicine, but at least I will admit that if I do not get in after a couple shots, I'm not afraid to go for dentistry. It is what my advisor recommended, actually. What is so wrong with this?

....The information is vast and something that cannot be simply mastered in 4 years, such as dentistry. The disease and sickness that can simply be treated by 3rd or 4th year students (such is the case with dental school where 3rd and 4th year students are able to do many of the procedures without much training)....
"Medicine" is a much broader field, obviously, but MDs only become specialists in one of the specialties. That's why med school is such a generic education which only qualifies us to do H&Ps and chase down xrays. Let's don't kid ourselves here. Med school is really only 3 years...the 4th year is a joke with a few required rotations and other rotations where you can show up on the days you feel like it. As someone who has completed both medical and dental school, I have to say most med students who think they know what dentistry and dental school involves, when they have no insight at all.

When you describe dental students doing procedures "without much training", you've revealed your lack of knowledge pertaining to dental school. Most dental schools lose 5-10% of each first year class because they can't meet the manual dexterity requirements even after several hours a day of practice and lab work. The only manual dexterity equivalent my med school classmates had involved an XBox for several hours each day. Dentists measure their preps in tenths of a millimeter while my med school classmates never did anything more challenging than suturing. It seems like there would be some sort of manual dexterity test for surgical residencies.

...The last 2 years of medical school is spent working many, many hours in clinics and hospitals....

Give me a break. Med students spend the night "on-call" during some of the 2-months of surgery and maybe medicine and OB during 3rd year. The rest of the 4-years the late hours are no different than in dental school. I worked 20-30 hours a week in med school, while I never had that kind of free time in dental school. I was at school until around midnight at least 5-6 nights per week during the majority of dental school...even much of the 4th year.

I agree with most of your post, but it's not as cut and dry as most people think.

The best reason for someone to pick dentistry over medicine is that they surely know that they would be happy working with teeth for the rest of their life and who see their job as only a job that's only purpose is to make cash. You listed a number of generalizations that just aren't always true.

I'm not sure what all is going on in the mind of my dentist but I assure you that when I went into his office with a huge hole in my molar that hurt like hell and had him send me on my way 30 minutes later eating cooler ranch doritos(i just threw that in here for flavor) that he could muster up more purpose than "making cash". I apologize if i'm making a "generalization" that just isn't always true.(being sarcastic with a quote from the passage that I am debating)

I understand though.. I use to think that lawyers had little purpose other than monetary rewards until I got a couple speeding tickets.(the standard associative metaphor to show my analytical skills)


ahaha even though i'm right, im jk i got tired of everyone else having some argument to get passionate about



also, since ive already started typing this..dentistry allows ppl to serve other's in one aspect(health care) while giving more time to serve others in different aspects (church related, local politics, family, blah, blah,other things which im interested in and ignorantly assume others are too, blah..etc) which alot of physician's wouldn't normally have the time for..or as much...maybe they just dont want to put all their purpose eggs in one basket? a little purpose here.. a little purpose there.. a little purpose everywhere


anyway, my gpa isn't that great so I wont discuss this issue any farther


I detect an over-compensation for a lack of Crest's new Extended Reach toothbrush in your post. :luck: <- im not gay im scotch irish

.

There are many medical specialities that offer the same lifestyle as a dentist. The kicker is that their avg income is about 3 times that of a dentist. In fact, if you check just about any statistics the avg physician will make at least 2 times that of a dentist.



I think you're getting ahead of yourself here. Sure, there are some medical specialties that allow you to have the same lifestyle as a dentist.... if you can match into derm or radiology. But for the remainder of the 90 or 95% of the medical students out there, those specialties are out of reach. I think you'd be hard pressed to show me a Family Practitioner, Internist, Pediactrician, or OB/Gyn who makes the money you claim they make AND works only 40 hours a week. Sure, you can easily find a pediatrician who only works 40 hours a week. But at that rate, I highly doubt they would be making "at least 2 times that of a dentist."

Let's look at the dental student who graduates last in his/her class. He/she doesn't have to complete a residency and will still make, on average $166,000 in his/her first year owning a private practice working 40 hours a week (http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/careers/infopaks/practice.pdf (page2)). I don't think many medical school graduates, especially those at the bottom of the class, will have that experience. And remember, those med school graduates had to spend at least 3 years in residency working for less than $40K a year for at least 60 hours a week... all the while the dental school graduate worked 40 hours a week with a six figure starting salary right out of school.

Although these facts are pretty compelling, I somehow don't think they will do very much to change your opinion. But good luck in medicine. It is a great field. And so is dentistry. Take care.

My brother-in-law is a dentist, and while he pretends that he LOVES his job and it is so fascinating and what not... he recently broke it down to me over a few sammies that he only went to dental school b/c he didn't get into med school the first time he applied (low verbal score). he gets great pay, easy hours (and only works 4 days a week at most), never deals with life-and-death issues, and is never on-call... HOWEVER, he is now seeing a psychiatrist on a weekly basis b/c he is unhappy as hell.

I guess the take-home lesson I have is to be DAMN sure that you'd be happy practicing dentistry before you go to school (not that most pre-dents don't know this)... if you're looking to do it as a "back-up" to medicine, you might be seriously dissapointed.

My aunt and my cousin are both dentists, and both are intelligent enough that they could have chosen medicine instead. Why didn't they? In a lot of ways, dentistry is a nicer lifestyle- no call, less hassle with insurance companies, etc. but still a good salary. The fact is that dentistry was professionalized later than medicine (For a good read, see Oral History: How Americans got their straight, white teeth) For a long time, medicine had a lot more prestige associated with it. Now, though, dentistry is becoming much more popular and more difficult to get into. As the level of competition rises, so does the level of prestige associated with a profession (as we can all see from the continuing DO vs MD debate)
In some countries, dentistry was/is a specialty at the medical school, but in most cases, this has changed and I think that's for the best. Personally, I'd rather that my dentist have focused all his energy on developing his hand skills for working on my teeth during the last two years of school- since on something that small and visible a millimeter off is a big mistake. Go dentists! :love:

Statistically professional's have higher level of stress and other factors(dis-illusionment when their life didn't turn out to be the dream life planned) which can lead to higher suicide rates. You having a relative who is being treated by a psychiatrist (who have the highest suicide rate of any medical profession on several stats) is only one example of many in the healthcare profession and America for that matter who are not satisfied with their lives, careers, etc.. While it would not be ethical or appropriate to glorify in the fact that one career over another has higher suicide rates, we can learn factor about a career through studies done on the topic. Now I know the saying "lies, damn lies, and statistics"(it's the title of a book too), but by all the statistics which I have found on the internet, MD/DO's have a higher rate than DDS/DMD. Again, this isn't a glorifying matter, but a matter that can lead us to believe that the lack of satisfaction in the life of whatever number of dentists isn't secluded to only that branch of healthcare.

I read these stat's last week and am not going to try and find the link again but please do a google search if you feel they are wrong.

My brother-in-law is a dentist, and while he pretends that he LOVES his job and it is so fascinating and what not... he recently broke it down to me over a few sammies that he only went to dental school b/c he didn't get into med school the first time he applied (low verbal score). he gets great pay, easy hours (and only works 4 days a week at most), never deals with life-and-death issues, and is never on-call... HOWEVER, he is now seeing a psychiatrist on a weekly basis b/c he is unhappy as hell.

I guess the take-home lesson I have is to be DAMN sure that you'd be happy practicing dentistry before you go to school (not that most pre-dents don't know this)... if you're looking to do it as a "back-up" to medicine, you might be seriously dissapointed.Back while I was premed two family physicians I worked with told me they wanted to be veterinarians.

The first MD told me veterinary school was too hard and that’s why he chose medical school instead.

The second told me, after I asked if she liked her job, she responded “Sometimes, but I wish I had talked to more MDs before choosing this field. I would choose veterinary school in a heartbeat.”

And finally, one pediatrician told me “Max, are you sure you don’t want to go into dentistry instead?” He laughed as he said it, but I couldn’t help but notice a glint of honest advice with the way he said it.

I guess I’m not sure what the point of my post is. But I’m just saying, much like some dentists wish they had become MDs, a lot of MDs wish they had become dentists, and other MDs wish they had become veterinarians….

If you're going into medicine, you damn better be sure it's what you want to do.

Society views doctor > dentist. If you have problems with that perspective, take that issue up with the public at large instead of with physicians. Physicians don't perpetuate that stereotype. Physicians are not the ones producing medical dramas and depicting doctors as heroic figures on shows like E.R. Blame Hollywood but don't blame physicians. As a DO, I have already accepted the fact that some people will not give me equal respect to that of an MD. Likewise, dentists need to come to terms that they will never attain the same level of respect as doctors. Maybe this is due to superficial reasons such as the public being bombarded with television shows and movies depicting doctors in a heroic manner (ER, House MD). Has there even been one show in the history of television dedicated solely to dentists? It's the nature of the dental field. Almost all dentists practice in a clinical outpatient setting which is not considered exciting by the lay public. All doctor related shows are depicted in the ER, hospital wards or the OR despite the fact that most physicians also practice in a clinical outpatient setting. What's funny is Hollywood once tried to create a physician related program depicting doctors in the clinical outpatient setting and it bombed; it was called Southern California doctors or something like that. No one wanted to see a doctor when he was in the clinic.

Entrance stats and money have no correlation with prestige either. Realtors and car salesman can earn a lot of money and they are still considered low on the prestige scale. There are realtors that earn millions and they won't be distinguished from the ones who earn 30K. Likewise, it's harder to get into veterinarian school than medical school but vets are not given any more respect than doctors.

And then dentists need to come clean and take responsibility for the fact that many dentists are unethical and bill for unwarranted procedures. Anyone who moves to a new city and searches for a dentist knows exactly what I'm talking about. If you go to the wrong dentist, you could wind up scheduling a 1000 dollar procedure that you may not even need. Many people attribute seeing their dentist like seeing a car mechanic. They are worried they will come out of a dentist office with a host of problems they didn't originally go in for.

Medical doctors are obviously viewed by the public as having more prestige over dentistry because medical doctors both improve the quality of life, extend lives, and are more vital to a healthy society I would say than dentist.(notice I said "more" vital) I don't doubt that most pre-dents/dentist believe the same. If prestige is something that someone is looking for then I would deffinately recommend medicine over dentistry. If someone wanted a career in healthcare that also had a good amount but lower prestige and arguably a better time/compensation ratio, then I would without a doubt recommend dentistry over medicine. Thank God there are people who are intelligent, hard working, and compassionate enough to pursue medicine. I couldn't do it.

Society views doctor > dentist. If you have problems with that perspective, take that issue up with the public at large instead of with physicians. Physicians don't perpetuate that stereotype. Physicians are not the ones producing medical dramas and depicting doctors as heroic figures on shows like E.R. Blame Hollywood but don't blame physicians. As a DO, I have already accepted the fact that some people will not give me equal respect to that of an MD. Likewise, dentists need to come to terms that they will never attain the same level of respect as doctors. Maybe this is due to superficial reasons such as the public being bombarded with television shows and movies depicting doctors in a heroic manner (ER, House MD). Has there even been one show in the history of television dedicated solely to dentists? It's the nature of the dental field. Almost all dentists practice in a clinical outpatient setting which is not considered exciting by the lay public. All doctor related shows are depicted in the ER, hospital wards or the OR despite the fact that most physicians also practice in a clinical outpatient setting. What's funny is Hollywood once tried to create a physician related program depicting doctors in the clinical outpatient setting and it bombed; it was called Southern California doctors or something like that. No one wanted to see a doctor when he was in the clinic.

Entrance stats and money have no correlation with prestige either. Realtors and car salesman can earn a lot of money and they are still considered low on the prestige scale. There are realtors that earn millions and they won't be distinguished from the ones who earn 30K. Likewise, it's harder to get into veterinarian school than medical school but vets are not given any more respect than doctors.

And then dentists need to come clean and take responsibility for the fact that many dentists are unethical and bill for unwarranted procedures. Anyone who moves to a new city and searches for a dentist knows exactly what I'm talking about. If you go to the wrong dentist, you could wind up scheduling a 1000 dollar procedure that you may not even need. Many people attribute seeing their dentist like seeing a car mechanic. They are worried they will come out of a dentist office with a host of problems they didn't originally go in for.


Dude I was with you until I read the last paragraph. Sorry if you had a bad experience with a dentist but don't generalize. Like any other profession, sure we have our share of wacko's but not in any higher percentage than medical doctors or any other health care provider. And it's funny b/c in terms of charging for unnecessary procedures, the medical community needs to own up a lot more (case in point UMDNJ medicaid fraud).
Let me explain something to you. If you go to a dentist only when your tooth hurts - it's very likely that it's too late. Expect a root canal, crown and possibly more work. If you can't afford it, get it pulled out. Your post reminded me of an experience this past tuesday: a pregnant lady came in with a periodontal infection that I recommended she have taken care several months ago - b/f her pregnancy - but she didn't b/c "it didn't hurt" at the time. There's something called preventive medicine and dentistry. This means take care of problems b/f they get out of hand. In exaggerated terms you can understand, exercise and eat right b/f you get angina. Next time you have an appt. and your dentist recommends some work ask some questions and educate yourself. Most will be happy to show you an xray or other diagnostic equipment.

To the person who said dentistry's sole purpose is to make cash you're wrong. We do provide a very valuable service. I think you just are a little ignorant as to what dentists do. We do a lot more than exams and fillings. Look up my former mentor Samuel Berkowitz in Miami, a leading authority on cleft lip and palate orthodontic treatment and research, look up some of the salivary dysfunction specialists, oncology prosthodontists, maxillofacial surgeons, hundreds of others etc etc. Perhaps you may only go to the dentist for little or no work, but there is a significant portion of the population relying on dental specialists and general dentists for their well being.

Now regarding all the other posts - this topic is really played out. Not to worry though, once we're all in the real world, this competitive streak will be long gone and for the most part mutual respect will prevail. For the record, ya i think dentistry's awesome. No it wasn't a backup. Sure it has its good points and bad points. My brother's a vascular surgeon and gained 60 lbs during his residency, was treated for depression but now is doing much better. But i won't paint the entire surgery community as depressed and obese.

Dude I was with you until I read the last paragraph. Sorry if you had a bad experience with a dentist but don't generalize. Like any other profession, sure we have our share of wacko's but not in any higher percentage than medical doctors or any other health care provider. And it's funny b/c in terms of charging for unnecessary procedures, the medical community needs to own up a lot more (case in point UMDNJ medicaid fraud).
Let me explain something to you. If you go to a dentist only when your tooth hurts - it's very likely that it's too late. Expect a root canal, crown and possibly more work. If you can't afford it, get it pulled out. Your post reminded me of an experience this past tuesday: a pregnant lady came in with a periodontal infection that I recommended she have taken care several months ago - b/f her pregnancy - but she didn't b/c "it didn't hurt" at the time. There's something called preventive medicine and dentistry. This means take care of problems b/f they get out of hand. In exaggerated terms you can understand, exercise and eat right b/f you get angina. Next time you have an appt. and your dentist recommends some work ask some questions and educate yourself. Most will be happy to show you an xray or other diagnostic equipment.

To the person who said dentistry's sole purpose is to make cash you're wrong. We do provide a very valuable service. I think you just are a little ignorant as to what dentists do. We do a lot more than exams and fillings. Look up my former mentor Samuel Berkowitz in Miami, a leading authority on cleft lip and palate orthodontic treatment and research, look up some of the salivary dysfunction specialists, oncology prosthodontists, maxillofacial surgeons, hundreds of others etc etc. Perhaps you may only go to the dentist for little or no work, but there is a significant portion of the population relying on dental specialists and general dentists for their well being.

Now regarding all the other posts - this topic is really played out. Not to worry though, once we're all in the real world, this competitive streak will be long gone and for the most part mutual respect will prevail. For the record, ya i think dentistry's awesome. No it wasn't a backup. Sure it has its good points and bad points. My brother's a vascular surgeon and gained 60 lbs during his residency, was treated for depression but now is doing much better. But i won't paint the entire surgery community as depressed and obese.

TKD,
Great insight; however, do you know what forum you're in and have you read some of their threads/posts? You wasted a well written post that could be used in an eighth-grade health course to explain the topic of dentistry. Nothing against you, but somehow I think the audience here is slightly less knowledgeable. It is amazing that some MDs----the so-called whole body experts, know nothing about the oral cavity, the disease that effects it nor the complexity of it-----many of them should be embarrassed.

TKD, I was called for a consult at our teaching hospital by a peditrician and GP who were concerned about something a mom pointed out in her child's mouth-----I get there look in this 2 year olds mouth and now there are 3 MDs (the peditrician called his resident to come learn) wondering what the hell that blue spot on the gingiva was-----well in 2 seconds I DX an eruption cyst :laugh: They couldn't ask me enough questions; I filled-out the consult sheets and left scratching my head, thinking holy crap, they don't even know what one of the most typical anomalies in a 2 year old looks like nor how to diagnosis/treat it. Dentistry is so basic and straight-forward that we have 9 specialties because we each have a different way of brushing our patients teeth. :eek: :laugh:

It is amazing though, when I'm in the hospital doing an general anesthesia case, the ENT's, cleft palate plastics team, and other specialists, I'm typically working with are very knowledgeable about the complexities of the oral complex (TMJ, orophayrnx, dentition, etc...).

TKD, I think you need to stick around the more intelligent forums or at the very least in the medical specialty forums. It's not a pissing match when knowledgeable doctors converse----only when those with little knowledge pretend they know it all.

"TKD, I was called for a consult at our teaching hospital by a peditrician and GP who were concerned about something a mom pointed out in her child's mouth-----I get there look in this 2 year olds mouth and now there are 3 MDs (the peditrician called his resident to come learn) wondering what the hell that blue spot on the gingiva was-----well in 2 seconds I DX an eruption cyst They couldn't ask me enough questions; I filled-out the consult sheets and left scratching my head, thinking holy crap, they don't even know what one of the most typical anomalies in a 2 year old looks like nor how to diagnosis/treat it. Dentistry is so basic and straight-forward that we have 9 specialties because we each have a different way of brushing our patients teeth"

That's a good one :laugh: :laugh:

Hey TKD

Good post :D. Very well said :thumbup:

Dude I was with you until I read the last paragraph. Sorry if you had a bad experience with a dentist but don't generalize. Like any other profession, sure we have our share of wacko's but not in any higher percentage than medical doctors or any other health care provider. And it's funny b/c in terms of charging for unnecessary procedures, the medical community needs to own up a lot more (case in point UMDNJ medicaid fraud).
Let me explain something to you. If you go to a dentist only when your tooth hurts - it's very likely that it's too late. Expect a root canal, crown and possibly more work. If you can't afford it, get it pulled out. Your post reminded me of an experience this past tuesday: a pregnant lady came in with a periodontal infection that I recommended she have taken care several months ago - b/f her pregnancy - but she didn't b/c "it didn't hurt" at the time. There's something called preventive medicine and dentistry. This means take care of problems b/f they get out of hand. In exaggerated terms you can understand, exercise and eat right b/f you get angina. Next time you have an appt. and your dentist recommends some work ask some questions and educate yourself. Most will be happy to show you an xray or other diagnostic equipment.



First, I'm a gal and not a dude. :love:

Likewise, I'm sure a car salesman will tell me not to generalize about them being unethical but it doesn't change the fact that many of them are unethical. There aren't official stats to support this just like there aren't official stats to support that many dentists are unethical. The public does not view doctors in this same regard. A patient does not fear a doctor scheduling them for a random procedure they are unaware of when they feel perfectly healthy. In fact, it's quite the opposite. They feel doctors don't do enough to serve them, and many patients will actually demand and request a full work-up when one isn't required. I never suggested the majority of dentists were corrupt but there is a significant portion of them who routinely cheat patients to the point that there are several websites, books, television documentaries, jokes about them in pop culture to suggest that you are aware of this phenomenon to some degree.

I went to see a dentist for a clearning; I had no pain like you assume. I have never had any cavities. I don't have a family history of cavities. I'm pretty regular about hygiene. The dentist suggested I get my molars sealed because their shape was deep which could later lead to cavities. I was suspicious so I saw another dentist who laughed at the previous dentist's recommendation and said I didn't need that. I then saw a "friend" who was a dentist suggested I put a crown on a different tooth altogether that both the other dentists missed. This was all done within a 2 week time span. 3 dentists had 3 different diagnoses? I talked to another dentist who is a member of our family. She said there is a large ethical gray area in dentistry that concerns "preventive care" in which the patient doesn't currently have anything wrong but X-rays may indicate a problem in the near future. However, she said that in many situations, the dentist could realistically avoid performing a procedure and wait for a more conclusive diagnosis but many dentists would go ahead and do the procedure "just to be on the safe side." Sound familiar? Dentists also try to push whitening and bleaching tray products which I don't feel is appropriate. There is a difference between knowing a service is available and pushing a service onto a patient which dentists are notorious for doing when it comes teeth whitening.

If dentists want to improve their perception among the public and hence their prestige, they need to address the fact that a significant percentage of their colleauges are unethical and simply trying to build the million dollar practice. You can't just downplay this by suggesting that all medical fields have their wackos. You guys even have magazines that unabashedly devote themselves to building these lucrative practices. In one of those magazines, they had photos of dentists posing at their practices. Some of the practices looked like Liberace built them with huge gaudy aquariums. It also doesn't help that when you drive on the freeway, you see big banners with ZOOM on them and some dentists' practice being advertised. These incidents only reinforce the image, however false it may be, that you are businessmen first and health providers second. This is why the public doesn't view dentists in the same light as doctors. Maybe it's time dentists took some responsibility for their image? I know as osteopaths we need to take responsibility for our image. We continue to preach about cranial manipulation although the evidence supporting such a practice is anecdotal. If we want the public to view us as equal to M.D. then we need to police ourselves. Even though the majority of osteopaths do not believe in cranial manipulation, we don't voice that opinion loud enough and thus give the false impression that all osteopaths are in favor of this type of manipuation.

I apologize if I offended you or other dentists but this is my perception of the situation. I'm aware there are far more honest dentists than corrupt ones but I think this is an issue that many dentists haven't really addressed among their colleagues. I will not respond as I think you should have the last word since I started this post. I'm also aware that I said some harsh things so I don't ask that you hold back if you need to attack osteopaths or the medical profession in general. We have some quackery as well especially with cranial manipuation IMHO of course.


Susan

Society views doctor > dentist. If you have problems with that perspective, take that issue up with the public at large instead of with physicians. Physicians don't perpetuate that stereotype. Physicians are not the ones producing medical dramas and depicting doctors as heroic figures on shows like E.R. Blame Hollywood but don't blame physicians. As a DO, I have already accepted the fact that some people will not give me equal respect to that of an MD. Likewise, dentists need to come to terms that they will never attain the same level of respect as doctors. Maybe this is due to superficial reasons such as the public being bombarded with television shows and movies depicting doctors in a heroic manner (ER, House MD). Has there even been one show in the history of television dedicated solely to dentists? It's the nature of the dental field. Almost all dentists practice in a clinical outpatient setting which is not considered exciting by the lay public. All doctor related shows are depicted in the ER, hospital wards or the OR despite the fact that most physicians also practice in a clinical outpatient setting. What's funny is Hollywood once tried to create a physician related program depicting doctors in the clinical outpatient setting and it bombed; it was called Southern California doctors or something like that. No one wanted to see a doctor when he was in the clinic.

Entrance stats and money have no correlation with prestige either. Realtors and car salesman can earn a lot of money and they are still considered low on the prestige scale. There are realtors that earn millions and they won't be distinguished from the ones who earn 30K. Likewise, it's harder to get into veterinarian school than medical school but vets are not given any more respect than doctors.

And then dentists need to come clean and take responsibility for the fact that many dentists are unethical and bill for unwarranted procedures. Anyone who moves to a new city and searches for a dentist knows exactly what I'm talking about. If you go to the wrong dentist, you could wind up scheduling a 1000 dollar procedure that you may not even need. Many people attribute seeing their dentist like seeing a car mechanic. They are worried they will come out of a dentist office with a host of problems they didn't originally go in for.


Wow. Until I read this post I would never have thought that a D.O. would say a dentist holds less prestige than a physician. D.O.'s of all people know how hard it is to fight for understanding, and here you are passing judgment on a whole field trying to do the same.

Sure, there are jerk dentists, just like there are jerk DOs that think OMM can cure everything. See how annoying it is to generalize, especially when it's about YOUR field? (and by the way, I'm married to an ethical mechanic!)

You may have encountered 3 different diagnoses, but that doesn't mean you need to go through with treatment. Yeah, the general public may not be aware of that, or what all the fancy terminology might mean, but that's where the public service of the health professions lie in education.

I hold dentists in high esteem. They are different from physicians because they treat disorders of the teeth and gums (and I'm sure more, but I'm not a dentist). I've had my two front teeth knocked halfway off, and you can bet I was just as grateful to the dentist who helped me out of that horrible pain as I was to the doctor who removed my thyroid cancer.

I really think the whole dentist vs. physician threads are dumb. They are made because people are looking for arguments and repeats of the same old mean comments by people on both sides of the fence.

If you are consumer of either dentistry or medicine, then contact the better business bureau or licensing board if you have trouble with a particular dentist or physician. Otherwise stop attacking either profession as if you really are better than the other.

If dentists want to improve their perception among the public and hence their prestige, they need to address the fact that a significant percentage of their colleauges are unethical and simply trying to build the million dollar practice. You can't just downplay this by suggesting that all medical fields have their wackos. You guys even have magazines that unabashedly devote themselves to building these lucrative practices. In one of those magazines, they had photos of dentists posing at their practices. Some of the practices looked like Liberace built them with huge gaudy aquariums. It also doesn't help that when you drive on the freeway, you see big banners with ZOOM on them and some dentists' practice being advertised.

Susan

Susan, you bring up a lot of points in your post. But to try to imply that dentists are the only healthcare providers who act like businessman/women is a little naive and short-sighted. I spent less than 2 minutes on google and uncovered these:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0826113117/104-3318187-9828736?v=glance&n=283155

http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=182793

In fact, a simple search of "cosmetic surgery" on google displayed several paid links by plastic surgeons adverstising their services. Just the way a search on "cosmetic dentistry" brings up paid links by dentists advertising their services. So clearly, MDs and DOs are doing just as much marketing for their services as are dentists. And if you watch Dr. 90210, you will see that the show is mostly about the lavish lifestyles lived by these plastic surgeons. It is, in my opinion, an hour long advertisement for the cosmetic surgery industry.

And to somehow imply that dentists are the only health care professionals who provide unneccessary care, I think this link will show you that MDs and DOs are guilty of doing the same thing:

http://www.newstarget.com/006343.html

My only point in my response is to show you that there are MDs and DOs that do the exact same things that you claim dentists do. To take a couple of isolated examples from either profession and generalize is a bit unfair, in my opinion.

Wow. Until I read this post I would never have thought that a D.O. would say a dentist holds less prestige than a physician. D.O.'s of all people know how hard it is to fight for understanding, and here you are passing judgment on a whole field trying to do the same.

Sure, there are jerk dentists, just like there are jerk DOs that think OMM can cure everything. See how annoying it is to generalize, especially when it's about YOUR field? (and by the way, I'm married to an ethical mechanic!).

It's not annoying, it's true. There are some crazy DO's who feel OMM can treat everything. Most of my class would agree with you. Likewise, it's also true the public views dentists with less prestige than doctors. They also view DO less than that of M.D. I don't have any issues with admitting the truth. I'm not saying I advocate this form of thinking but this the general perception.

Susan, you bring up a lot of points in your post. But to try to imply that dentists are the only healthcare providers who act like businessman/women is a little naive and short-sighted. I spent less than 2 minutes on google and uncovered these:



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0826113117/104-3318187-9828736?v=glance&n=283155

http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=182793

In fact, a simple search of "cosmetic surgery" on google displayed several paid links by plastic surgeons adverstising their services. Just the way a search on "cosmetic dentistry" brings up paid links by dentists advertising their services. So clearly, MDs and DOs are doing just as much marketing for their services as are dentists. And if you watch Dr. 90210, you will see that the show is mostly about the lavish lifestyles lived by these plastic surgeons. It is, in my opinion, an hour long advertisement for the cosmetic surgery industry.

And to somehow imply that dentists are the only health care professionals who provide unneccessary care, I think this link will show you that MDs and DOs are guilty of doing the same thing:

http://www.newstarget.com/006343.html

My only point in my response is to show you that there are MDs and DOs that do the exact same things that you claim dentists do. To take a couple of isolated examples from either profession and generalize is a bit unfair, in my opinion.

Plastic surgeons do behave in this manner but they make up a tiny percentage of all physicians. General dentists are "cosmetic dentists" so a much larger percentage of them practice in this manner. I never stated that physicians don't act in this manner. I only suggested that a larger percentage of dentists do act this way.

....I went to see a dentist for a clearning; I had no pain like you assume. I have never had any cavities. I don't have a family history of cavities. I'm pretty regular about hygiene. The dentist suggested I get my molars sealed because their shape was deep which could later lead to cavities. I was suspicious so I saw another dentist who laughed at the previous dentist's recommendation and said I didn't need that. I then saw a "friend" who was a dentist suggested I put a crown on a different tooth altogether that both the other dentists missed. This was all done within a 2 week time span. 3 dentists had 3 different diagnoses? ...
I don't really see why you think different opinions are unique to dentistry. Pain is irrelevant....hypertension and diabetes don't hurt either, but if you wait until it "hurts" you are in serious trouble. Sealants are preventative and there is disagreement as to which populations benefit from them. Some argue that a $30 sealant is non-invasive and cheap insurance to avoid a $900 crown down the road, while others argue that a sealant is a procedure on a tooth where there is no disease. It's your choice as the patient.

How many MDs missed my heart murmer before one said "anyone ever tell you that you have a murmer?"

Plastic surgeons do behave in this manner but they make up a tiny percentage of all physicians. General dentists are "cosmetic dentists" so a much larger percentage of them practice in this manner. I never stated that physicians don't act in this manner. I only suggested that a larger percentage of dentists do act this way.

What about all of the dermatologists who do cosmetic procedures? And some MDs/DOs with only residency training in internal medicine who do minor cosmetic work too? If you pick up any phonebook, you will see dozens of advertisements from MDs/DOs advertising cosmetic procedures. So saying that only plastic surgeons are guilty of excessive advertising is inaccurate. In fact, a large number of MDs/DOs are trying to branch into cosmetic work because it is so lucrative. So you have many MDs/DOs running around doing as much advertising as dentists do. But of course, these guys don't have Liberace style practices, right? Ever seen Dr. Robert Ray's office from 90210?

In addition, your statement that "general dentists are cosmetic dentists" is 100% false. Just because you are a general dentist doesn't mean you do cosmetic procedures like teeth whitening. So your attempt to imply that all general dentists are cosmetic dentists and since cosmetic dentists do advertising, then all general dentists do lots of marketing and are only after your money is very flawed.

You are generalizing about a profession based upon a couple of experiences. This is akin to me saying that all dermatologists are after my money because one dermatologist suggested to me that I have a large freckle removed from my face for cosmetic reasons. Is that fair for me to generalize like this? I don't think so.

It's not annoying, it's true. There are some crazy DO's who feel OMM can treat everything. Most of my class would agree with you. Likewise, it's also true the public views dentists with less prestige than doctors. They also view DO less than that of M.D. I don't have any issues with admitting the truth. I'm not saying I advocate this form of thinking but this the general perception.

No, it really is annoying.

First, I'm a gal and not a dude. :love:

Likewise, I'm sure a car salesman will tell me not to generalize about them being unethical but it doesn't change the fact that many of them are unethical. There aren't official stats to support this just like there aren't official stats to support that many dentists are unethical. The public does not view doctors in this same regard. A patient does not fear a doctor scheduling them for a random procedure they are unaware of when they feel perfectly healthy. In fact, it's quite the opposite. They feel doctors don't do enough to serve them, and many patients will actually demand and request a full work-up when one isn't required. I never suggested the majority of dentists were corrupt but there is a significant portion of them who routinely cheat patients to the point that there are several websites, books, television documentaries, jokes about them in pop culture to suggest that you are aware of this phenomenon to some degree.

I went to see a dentist for a clearning; I had no pain like you assume. I have never had any cavities. I don't have a family history of cavities. I'm pretty regular about hygiene. The dentist suggested I get my molars sealed because their shape was deep which could later lead to cavities. I was suspicious so I saw another dentist who laughed at the previous dentist's recommendation and said I didn't need that. I then saw a "friend" who was a dentist suggested I put a crown on a different tooth altogether that both the other dentists missed. This was all done within a 2 week time span. 3 dentists had 3 different diagnoses? I talked to another dentist who is a member of our family. She said there is a large ethical gray area in dentistry that concerns "preventive care" in which the patient doesn't currently have anything wrong but X-rays may indicate a problem in the near future. However, she said that in many situations, the dentist could realistically avoid performing a procedure and wait for a more conclusive diagnosis but many dentists would go ahead and do the procedure "just to be on the safe side." Sound familiar? Dentists also try to push whitening and bleaching tray products which I don't feel is appropriate. There is a difference between knowing a service is available and pushing a service onto a patient which dentists are notorious for doing when it comes teeth whitening.

If dentists want to improve their perception among the public and hence their prestige, they need to address the fact that a significant percentage of their colleauges are unethical and simply trying to build the million dollar practice. You can't just downplay this by suggesting that all medical fields have their wackos. You guys even have magazines that unabashedly devote themselves to building these lucrative practices. In one of those magazines, they had photos of dentists posing at their practices. Some of the practices looked like Liberace built them with huge gaudy aquariums. It also doesn't help that when you drive on the freeway, you see big banners with ZOOM on them and some dentists' practice being advertised. These incidents only reinforce the image, however false it may be, that you are businessmen first and health providers second. This is why the public doesn't view dentists in the same light as doctors. Maybe it's time dentists took some responsibility for their image? I know as osteopaths we need to take responsibility for our image. We continue to preach about cranial manipulation although the evidence supporting such a practice is anecdotal. If we want the public to view us as equal to M.D. then we need to police ourselves. Even though the majority of osteopaths do not believe in cranial manipulation, we don't voice that opinion loud enough and thus give the false impression that all osteopaths are in favor of this type of manipuation.

I apologize if I offended you or other dentists but this is my perception of the situation. I'm aware there are far more honest dentists than corrupt ones but I think this is an issue that many dentists haven't really addressed among their colleagues. I will not respond as I think you should have the last word since I started this post. I'm also aware that I said some harsh things so I don't ask that you hold back if you need to attack osteopaths or the medical profession in general. We have some quackery as well especially with cranial manipuation IMHO of course.


Susan
Susan,

You may be the single most naive person I have encountered on this forum. The elementary and immature perception you hold are of a person sorely misinformed and ignorant. The thought of someone who is a medical student furthers just adds to my disgust and dismay.

Dentists are business owners, my little silly one. 97% are self-employed, to say we are business owners first, as if that is something to be ashamed of, is moronic. We are business owners first. :laugh: Without our business we can't provide a service----Economics 101, einstein. Visit a plastic surgeon's "million dollar practice," with their leather couches, crown molding interior, $1000 paintings, their radio ads, phone book ads, huge highway banners (Feeling old, you don't need to look it----call...)and then take a stroll to your local dermatologist and watch them in action---botox, chem. peels, microdermabrasion, get real, and you're offended by teeth whitening. :eek:

Sadly you should mention a "preventive procedures" and then act as if that is an unheard of concept. I had a mole removed by a derm this year just to be "safe." A mole my local dermatologist followed for years and never felt it necessary to remove. I had a broken finger and an EXTRA x-ray just to make sure it was reduced correctly----in order to "prevent" future problems. It's indicated for that procedure as is yearly radiographs at your dentist. To wait for a MORE conclusive DX is borderline malpractice and raises the cost to the patient. To take care of an incipient problem costs minimal, saves tooth structure, stops the impending infection and is proper care; one that patients expect especially when a filling costs $100 and a crown $1200. Which would you perfer to pay; Think about it!? :eek: If we waited for the problem to become substantial we could then charge you handsomely! Nice argument to show our greed :laugh: ; I should hire you as my PR for my practice.

I've decided to qualify your comments by actually addressing them----when I should have let them stand for the ignorance they display. However, it is my hope that when you have a chance to really think through your perceptions and beliefs, you'll realize how shallow, immature, and hypocritical they are.

I truly wish you the best of luck, I pray for your colleagues, and cringe at the thought of someone calling you "doctor."

Someone alerted to this thread and I was disgusted. Susan, you have to realize that you are not only representing yourself on these forums but osteopathic physicians as well and I certainly do not agree with anything you have said. Your comments are disrespectful to the dental profession. I don't know what school you attend but I hope it isn't my school. Dentists are not any more unethical than physicians. I do agree that maybe the general perception is that dentists are more unethical but there is a reason for that. Many people lack dental insurance and are forced to paying for dental work out of pocket. Unethical physicians will just charge your insurance for additional work and many patients will be unaware of this since they don't have to pay for these extraneous charges out of their own money. Therefore, a patient sufferring from an unethical dentist will likely feel the brunt of this mistreatment more than from a physician and will probably vent like you did. But this in no way translates to dentists being more unethical than doctors.

And in regards to cranial osteopathy, to call it unethical is unfair and harsh. I don't know enough about cranial osteopathy to cast judgement on it. But I do know that many patients swear by it and consistently seek it. It may be in their head or it may actually work but regardless, these patients are receiving comfort for it. The physicians who perform cranial osteopathy are not greedy. They genuinely believe in it's efficacy and they have enough patients who seek this treatment that they are not forced to sell it or push it on anyone like snake oil. Please understand that many DO's who do cranial and other osteopathic procedures do not charge beyond a standard office visit so they are not becoming rich by performing these procedures. I know most osteopathic physicians do not believe in cranial osteopathy but they would never call these physicians unethical "wackos" as you refer to them. I also want to inform others that cranial osteopathy is not forced down our throats in DO school. The first thing they told us before teaching us this is that it isn't for everyone and not everyone will buy into its concept, and that was okay. Your comments are disrespectful to the osteopathic community and those patients who receive comfort from these procedures. You can disagree with it but to call those who practice it as unethical is disrespectful.

The last thing I want to say is that ignorant people like Susan always cast judgement on other fields until they are in need of their services. Wait until her teeth hurt and she will thank the lord that dentists exists. The same goes for chiropractors. Anyone who has a mild sports related injury that hurts like hell knows they can't get into an orthopedic surgeons' office or even a DO's office immediately. Chiropractors can be seen readily and provide much appreciated relief in these situations. Podiatrists are sometimes the only people willing to treat diabetics and their associated foot problems when many physicians would rather not deal with that. I know that if I'm a diabetic or if I have a diabetic relative in need of this care, I'm glad podiatrists exist.

Someone alerted to this thread and I was disgusted. Susan, you have to realize that you are not only representing yourself on these forums but osteopathic physicians as well and I certainly do not agree with anything you have said. Your comments are disrespectful to the dental profession. I don't know what school you attend but I hope it isn't my school. Dentists are not any more unethical than physicians. I do agree that maybe the general perception is that dentists are more unethical but there is a reason for that. Many people lack dental insurance and are forced to paying for dental work out of pocket. Unethical physicians will just charge your insurance for additional work and many patients will be unaware of this since they don't have to pay for these extraneous charges out of their own money. Therefore, a patient sufferring from an unethical dentist will likely feel the brunt of this mistreatment more than from a physician and will probably vent like you did. But this in no way translates to dentists being more unethical than doctors.

And in regards to cranial osteopathy, to call it unethical is unfair and harsh. I don't know enough about cranial osteopathy to cast judgement on it. But I do know that many patients swear by it and consistently seek it. It may be in their head or it may actually work but regardless, these patients are receiving comfort for it. The physicians who perform cranial osteopathy are not greedy. They genuinely believe in it's efficacy and they have enough patients who seek this treatment that they are not forced to sell it or push it on anyone like snake oil. Please understand that many DO's who do cranial and other osteopathic procedures do not charge beyond a standard office visit so they are not becoming rich by performing these procedures. I know most osteopathic physicians do not believe in cranial osteopathy but they would never call these physicians unethical "wackos" as you refer to them. I also want to inform others that cranial osteopathy is not forced down our throats in DO school. The first thing they told us before teaching us this is that it isn't for everyone and not everyone will buy into its concept, and that was okay. Your comments are disrespectful to the osteopathic community and those patients who receive comfort from these procedures. You can disagree with it but to call those who practice it as unethical is disrespectful.

The last thing I want to say is that ignorant people like Susan always cast judgement on other fields until they are in need of their services. Wait until her teeth hurt and she will thank the lord that dentists exists. The same goes for chiropractors. Anyone who has a mild sports related injury that hurts like hell knows they can't get into an orthopedic surgeons' office or even a DO's office immediately. Chiropractors can be seen readily and provide much appreciated relief in these situations. Podiatrists are sometimes the only people willing to treat diabetics and their associated foot problems when many physicians would rather not deal with that. I know that if I'm a diabetic or if I have a diabetic relative in need of this care, I'm glad podiatrists exist.


Amen! Susan class is adjourned and your homework is to memorize this post.

Rahula----clarity found in the murky depths of this ridiculous thread--- I applaud you, great post!

Are you being serious? Get it fixed before there's nothing left to do but pull it. This is the dental equivalent of those ER patients who say "I have this substernal chest pain that radiates down my arm, but I haven't done anything about it because I don't have insurance."


Easier said than done,

had a cavity turned into a root canal and got it minimally fixed (no crown) at a whooping discount price of $780.

:mad:

It's not annoying, it's true. There are some crazy DO's who feel OMM can treat everything. Most of my class would agree with you. Likewise, it's also true the public views dentists with less prestige than doctors. They also view DO less than that of M.D. I don't have any issues with admitting the truth. I'm not saying I advocate this form of thinking but this the general perception.
I know this is off topic, but why would you attend a D.O. school if you don't believe in OMM?? Do a lot of D.O. students see OMM as worthless?

I know this is off topic, but why would you attend a D.O. school if you don't believe in OMM?? Do a lot of D.O. students see OMM as worthless?

No, a lot of DO's see cranial osteopathy as being useless but they do believe in OMM in regards to other areas of the body like lower back pain.

1. The last I checked, I didn't have a dozen coupons in the mail from physicians with a picture of his family and dog saying "Family Internal Medicine at its Best" offerring "no copay" for first time visit.

2. When I was in the mall, I didn't see a physician's office located inside with a sign stating "Free EKG and Spirometry with Consultationl."

3. The last time I went to my internist, he didn't say: "Your cholesterol looks great but your crows feet under your eyes could be treated. Would you like some Boxtox?" (His practice "offers these services" but unlike John Smith DDS, he doesn't push his products on his patients that dentists are routinely used to doing)

4. Dermatologists and Plastic Surgeons make up a tiny fraction of physicians. They are the most selective programs because they have the fewest spots. The overwhelming majority of dentists are general dentists. Every general dentist has the capability of performing "cosmetic dentistry." And they don't have to have "Cosmetic Dentistry" on their shingle to practice it. Nearly every general dentist offers some cosmetic service so let's not pretend they don't. You would be hard pressed to find a general dentist who didn't offer bleaching trays at the very least. This is not true for internists and family practice doctors. Very few of these primary care doctors offer these services because they usually can't sustain enough demand to offer these products and services. The bulk of cosmetic work is handled by plastic surgeons/cosmetic surgeons and dermatologists. And I don't have coupons in the mail from these physicians nor do I see their ads next to the realtor's at the entrance of the grocery store.

had a cavity turned into a root canal and got it minimally fixed (no crown) at a whooping discount price of $780.
I :love: dentistry!!

But seriously, when I first started dental school it would bother me a little when a medical school classmate would say something about dental school admission being less competetive than medical school admission. Now that I've matured a little, I've come to appreciate that the percentage of total sh*theads in a given medical school class is equal to the percentage of total sh*theads in the general public. Live and let live.

I actually feel sorry for some of my high school classmates that went onto medicine; they really had no idea what they were getting into. They just focused on medicine because they thought (or their parents made them think) it was the only really worthwhile career. They were so busy trying to reach to goal of medical school acceptance, that they didn't stop to think if it was right for them.

I :love: dentistry!!

I actually feel sorry for some of my high school classmates that went onto medicine; they really had no idea what they were getting into. They just focused on medicine because they thought (or their parents made them think) it was the only really worthwhile career. They were so busy trying to reach to goal of medical school acceptance, that they didn't stop to think if it was right for them.

I hear this a lot from dentists. They love to tell people how they, unlike their medical school friends, actually thought about their career choice. The implication being that dentistry is a better choice of careers and that most medical students would have chosen dentistry had they spent time thinking about all the variables like the wise dental applicants. Sounds like a lot of rationalizing to me

I hear this a lot from dentists. They love to tell people how they, unlike their medical school friends, actually thought about their career choice. The implication being that dentistry is a better choice of careers and that most medical students would have chosen dentistry had they spent time thinking about all the variables like the wise dental applicants. Sounds like a lot of rationalizing to me

And you sound very bitter. Seriously, stop generalizing about dentists. I'm not really interested in dentistry as a career (I want to be a physician) and am disgusted with your attitude. Maybe they talk highly of dentistry because they actually *like* dentistry!

I've had experience with dentists in all settings in several states and countries. I've really never had any problems with them. I didn't get my first cavity until 22 and even then had a simple filling. I've since had to have my front 2 teeth crowned (they were knocked out) and root canaled, but standard stuff was performed.

Just because YOU had a bad experience doesn't make it fair to say EVERY dentist is greedy and unethical. Based on YOUR attitude as a future physician, I could say that ALL physicians have a God-complex because they look down on "other" fields and think they are less valuable.

Seriously, grow up. You are REALLY making yourself look bad. Usually a good argument has equal backing on either side of the argument. Seems like you are on one side vs. everyone else. Time to re-evaluate your thoughts and join us on planet Earth.

...Every general dentist has the capability of performing "cosmetic dentistry." And they don't have to have "Cosmetic Dentistry" on their shingle to practice it. Nearly every general dentist offers some cosmetic service so let's not pretend they don't. You would be hard pressed to find a general dentist who didn't offer bleaching trays at the very least. This is not true for internists and family practice doctors. Very few of these primary care doctors offer these services because they usually can't sustain enough demand to offer these products and services. The bulk of cosmetic work is handled by plastic surgeons/cosmetic surgeons and dermatologists. And I don't have coupons in the mail from these physicians nor do I see their ads next to the realtor's at the entrance of the grocery store.
I'm not sure I see the problem here with performing cosmetic dentistry. I've been offered "bleaching" at my dentist also, but I told them I wasn't interested. Now was that so difficult?

And if you think dentists are the only ones advertising then you need to open your eyes a little more.

Easier said than done,

had a cavity turned into a root canal and got it minimally fixed (no crown) at a whooping discount price of $780.

:mad:
Just curious...was it the price you didn't like? There are much cheaper ways to fix that problem.

1. The last I checked, I didn't have a dozen coupons in the mail from physicians with a picture of his family and dog saying "Family Internal Medicine at its Best" offerring "no copay" for first time visit.
What's this supposed to indicate? The only thing it tells me is that your local physicians are smart enough not to advertise insurance fraud.

2. When I was in the mall, I didn't see a physician's office located inside with a sign stating "Free EKG and Spirometry with Consultationl."

3. The last time I went to my internist, he didn't say: "Your cholesterol looks great but your crows feet under your eyes could be treated. Would you like some Boxtox?" (His practice "offers these services" but unlike John Smith DDS, he doesn't push his products on his patients that dentists are routinely used to doing)
You're comparing unrelated specialties here. If you have abnormalities other than cholesterol in the labs, I imagine you'd expect the internist to tell you about them even if they weren't specifically the reason you scheduled the appointment.

You'll find out, as you progress through school to eventually touch live patients, that their ideas of what's happening in their body frequently bear precious little resemblance to the reality of it, and it's your responsibility to inform them of the discrepancy in a manner they can appreciate.

Incidentally, what is "Boxtox"? A cardboard derivative of some sort?

4. Dermatologists and Plastic Surgeons make up a tiny fraction of physicians. They are the most selective programs because they have the fewest spots. The overwhelming majority of dentists are general dentists. Every general dentist has the capability of performing "cosmetic dentistry." And they don't have to have "Cosmetic Dentistry" on their shingle to practice it. Nearly every general dentist offers some cosmetic service so let's not pretend they don't. You would be hard pressed to find a general dentist who didn't offer bleaching trays at the very least. This is not true for internists and family practice doctors. Very few of these primary care doctors offer these services because they usually can't sustain enough demand to offer these products and services. The bulk of cosmetic work is handled by plastic surgeons/cosmetic surgeons and dermatologists. And I don't have coupons in the mail from these physicians nor do I see their ads next to the realtor's at the entrance of the grocery store.
Likewise back to the insurance fraud bit. Just to broaden the field, take a look in your local yellow pages and see how many opthalmologists offer a free initial consultation for vision correction surgery, which is itself almost a 100% elective procedure.

Look, lady, I don't know where you found this sense of smug superiority, but it's threatening to engulf you and may have already. Nobody here or anywhere is going to try stopping you from smearing dentistry all over the place if it makes you feel good, but what you evidently don't realize is how little your mini-crusade says about us, and how much it tells everyone about you.

Just curious. Why do Medical students hate on dental students? Moreover, why does that hate carry on to medical doctors hating on Dentists. Is it just that dentists make more money easily or is it something else. Please feel free to explain this phenomena.


As a pre med, headed to a medical school, let me say that I think you guys make some insane money.

Sometimes I sneak over to your dentistry and DAT forums and I ask myself,

"You know what? I should have spent more time looking into dentistry cause they seem to have much more time to live - and you guys make really nice money too, more so than a large number of doctors"

Having time to spend visiting friends and family is worth a lot more than money...and yet you still make a great salary.

That's pretty cool in my book.

I hear this a lot from dentists. They love to tell people how they, unlike their medical school friends, actually thought about their career choice. The implication being that dentistry is a better choice of careers and that most medical students would have chosen dentistry had they spent time thinking about all the variables like the wise dental applicants. Sounds like a lot of rationalizing to me
:laugh: "A lot" of rationalizing? I said some of my classmates; most of them are pretty happy with their choice actually. I have no problem with either careers, i just feel like there's a lot of hype with medicine that you don't get with dentistry. Also, I certainly didn't say that my friends who are unhappy with medicine should've thought more and realized that dentistry was the better choice. You drew that conclusion yourself. I think one of them would've been really happy going into business, getting an MBA, etc. Like I said, in terms of various careers I think the hype about medicine is on a level all its own. Peas.

nor do I see their ads next to the realtor's at the entrance of the grocery store.

Im from Phoenix, AZ and I can tell you that I have seen plenty of ads from plastic surgeons advertising breast augmentations and liposuction. Especially in the movie theater. These ads were from the supposedly best doctors in the state.

Im from Phoenix, AZ and I can tell you that I have seen plenty of ads from plastic surgeons advertising breast augmentations and liposuction. Especially in the movie theater. These ads were from the supposedly best doctors in the state.

I'm from Phoenix as well and I have never seen any Plastic Surgeon ads at the movies particularly the Harkins and AMC. I have seen plenty of ads from Gary Swallows Realty though; I think Gary is the only who can afford it, that guy is loaded :)

I'm from Phoenix as well and I have never seen any Plastic Surgeon ads at the movies particularly the Harkins and AMC. I have seen plenty of ads from Gary Swallows Realty though; I think Gary is the only who can afford it, that guy is loaded :)

I dont know how often you go to movies, or at least go early to see the ads, but there is no way you can miss the ad by Dr. Hiatt, plastic surgeon. This was a the harkins superstition springs. I think Ive seen it at others as well. It passes at least once every 3 minutes. The half naked women laying by the pool is sure to grab some attention.

Oyyee.. I hope a patient never stumbles on this page. Listen, we're all going to be patients at lots of times in our lives so let's drop the ego thing. We put a lot of trust in people to make us feel better (both internally and externally) and I'm sure no one wants a guy that only does his/her job to feed his/her ego. I know that it happens and it's quite tragic, but I guess it's just the way it goes.

Sometimes I'm glad that reimbursement rates are going down so that I can actually see a doctor that cares about ME, my LIFE, and how I feel instead of his/her paycheck at the end of the day. Falling salaries may actually get guys that truly want to be doctors to HELP PEOPLE. Surely, money is extremely important in this world, and it seems to inspire man to do great things. The real guys that should have egos seem to be the ones that are sitting in a lab figuring out how to save humanity from the perils of disease. Those are the real heroes, the ones that do it to leave the world a better place, not because of a title or money.

Wow, this thread has grown.

I would think that a lot of the negative attitudes towards dentists stem from the reality that no one really likes going to a dentist. I mean, we all like to have healthy teeth that are attractive and don't cause any pain or discomfort, but at the same time we don't exactly look forward to our bi-annual exams and the occasional filling, crown or root canal.

Or maybe that's just me, but I prefer to keep my mouth to myself. I have no problem going to a doctor and having a physical, but I don't like people messing around in my mouth. I hate having my teeth probed with metal objects, and when a stranger flosses your teeth and doesn't know the spots like you do it's really annoying.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, just sharing my opinion. Maybe other health professionals don't view dentists in a positive way because most people's only experience with dentists is having a cavity, tooth extraction ,or other problem. So it's a negative association that is formed very early on in life in some cases.

Wow, this thread has grown.

I would think that a lot of the negative attitudes towards dentists stem from the reality that no one really likes going to a dentist. I mean, we all like to have healthy teeth that are attractive and don't cause any pain or discomfort, but at the same time we don't exactly look forward to our bi-annual exams and the occasional filling, crown or root canal.

Or maybe that's just me, but I prefer to keep my mouth to myself. I have no problem going to a doctor and having a physical, but I don't like people messing around in my mouth. I hate having my teeth probed with metal objects, and when a stranger flosses your teeth and doesn't know the spots like you do it's really annoying.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, just sharing my opinion. Maybe other health professionals don't view dentists in a positive way because most people's only experience with dentists is having a cavity, tooth extraction ,or other problem. So it's a negative association that is formed very early on in life in some cases.

i've only been to a handful of dentists, but every time i go he/she barely says anything to me. they walk in, poke at my teeth for about 5 mins, then leave. this is probably another aspect that contributes to the public perception. Only about half the time do I get a "hello". If they say anything, it's most likely to the hygenist (hyg: check tooth #x out... dentist: looks fine... no change from xray.. blah blah). Whereas, if people go to a physician they are more likely to have more interaction (not always (i.e. surgeons) but more often so). The physicians always communicate that they are looking out for my best interest. Although this is probably true for my dentists, they don't communicate it.

Gary Swallows :) :laugh:

Or maybe that's just me, but I prefer to keep my mouth to myself. I have no problem going to a doctor and having a physical, but I don't like people messing around in my mouth. I hate having my teeth probed with metal objects, and when a stranger flosses your teeth and doesn't know the spots like you do it's really annoying.


that's exactly my opinion. spot on. :thumbup:

Dentistry is elective for the most part. You don't have to go.

Dentistry is elective for the most part. You don't have to go.

Good point Toof.. unless of course if you don't want to end up having to drink your food through a straw and eating applesauce forever.

Good point Toof.. unless of course if you don't want to end up having to drink your food through a straw and eating applesauce forever.
Here's another way to think about it: You have to see your dentist eventually....you can do it now or you can do it in the ER with your neck swollen and airway closing off.

Don't dentists have the highest rate of suicide among professionals???? hmmmm...just my two cents...hehehehe

Don't dentists have the highest rate of suicide among professionals???? hmmmm...just my two cents...hehehehe

Must be an Iowa thing :laugh: (Hey is Iowa's slogan still: Idiots Out Walking Around)

Must be an Iowa thing :laugh: (Hey is Iowa's slogan still: Idiots Out Walking Around)
where's iowa? is that in the carribeans?

Here's another way to think about it: You have to see your dentist eventually....you can do it now or you can do it in the ER with your neck swollen and airway closing off.

yes, because this is very common of people who don't go to their dentist often :rolleyes:

yes, because this is very common of people who don't go to their dentist often :rolleyes:


Ever hear of Ludwig's angina? >85% are of odontogenic origin. What about Actinomycosis infections of the submandibular space? :rolleyes:

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/179_10_171103/aqu10203_fm.html

Ever hear of Ludwig's angina? >85% are of odontogenic origin. What about Actinomycosis infections of the submandibular space? :rolleyes:

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/179_10_171103/aqu10203_fm.html

and how common are these? i do not recall seeing these on the list of top health problems in the US... :meanie:

LA: 24 to 62 cases per million
http://emj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/21/2/242.pdf

and how common are these? i do not recall seeing these on the list of top health problems in the US... :meanie:

LA: 24 to 62 cases per million
http://emj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/21/2/242.pdf

I just did a one month rotation in the ER and I would say that 1 out of 10 patients we saw had toof problems. Sure, most of them were disgusting pusy abscesses, but I didn't realize that many people didn't go to the dentist regularly. Anyone, I don't realize why MD's don't just start working on teeth and the mouth; they seem to be able to do everything else according to those on this forum.. you know, heal, confirm, marry, forgive.. I heard that once you get MD after your name, you're actually automatically made a god in heaven. It's just what I heard.

I just did a one month rotation in the ER and I would say that 1 out of 10 patients we saw had toof problems. Sure, most of them were disgusting pusy abscesses, but I didn't realize that many people didn't go to the dentist regularly. Anyone, I don't realize why MD's don't just start working on teeth and the mouth; they seem to be able to do everything else according to those on this forum.. you know, heal, confirm, marry, forgive.. I heard that once you get MD after your name, you're actually automatically made a god in heaven. It's just what I heard.

Those "toof" problems can be a bad thing.

What's up with all the animosity between physicians and dentists? A dentist just seems like a physician that works on problems pertaining to the teeth.

I agree with you about MDs....they often have a god complex, but the majority of them just prescribe medications that you already know you need.

Don't dentists have the highest rate of suicide among professionals???? hmmmm...just my two cents...hehehehe
Hmmmmm.....what are you talking about and how is this relevant....hehehehe

A dentist just seems like a physician that works on problems pertaining to the teeth.


ahem....I don't think so. :rolleyes:

ahem....I don't think so. :rolleyes:

Of course you don't. That was very witty of you, but what really blew my mind and made me thank god I was here to witness this day is your cunning explanation of why this is the case. Thank you LAZYGUY, I wish I was gay so I could marry you in Amsterdam [or if you're actually a woman, please PM me with your phone number]

:meanie:

Those "toof" problems can be a bad thing.

What's up with all the animosity between physicians and dentists? A dentist just seems like a physician that works on problems pertaining to the teeth.

I agree with you about MDs....they often have a god complex, but the majority of them just prescribe medications that you already know you need.


there's no animosity out in the real world. these snd'ers will know what i'm talking about eventually. right now they have a very naive, unrealistic view of medicine, are very ignorant about dentistry, have certain assumptions about dental students which are way off, but if it makes them feel better, go ahead. best thing is to ignore these types of threads.

Sometimes I'm glad that reimbursement rates are going down so that I can actually see a doctor that cares about ME, my LIFE, and how I feel instead of his/her paycheck at the end of the day. Falling salaries may actually get guys that truly want to be doctors to HELP PEOPLE. Surely, money is extremely important in this world, and it seems to inspire man to do great things. The real guys that should have egos seem to be the ones that are sitting in a lab figuring out how to save humanity from the perils of disease. Those are the real heroes, the ones that do it to leave the world a better place, not because of a title or money.

This is faulty logic. The more the reimbursement rate falls, the less time your physician is going to spend time with you. He is just going to compensate for it by seeing a higher volume of patients which translates to less time per patient. The patient if anyone has suffered from managed care and reduced reimbursement rates. Many honest physicians simply can't afford to stay in practice if they spend a lot of time per patient. It's sad that people like yourself come to these conclusions without really thinking about these issues.

There are arrogant physicians just like there are arrogant dentists. I have met many physicians who are caring, and selfless but you never hear about those doctors because they don't make many headlines. Likewise, you don't hear about the good dentists because the bad ones are so much more fun to put on the news.

This is faulty logic. The more the reimbursement rate falls, the less time your physician is going to spend time with you. He is just going to compensate for it by seeing a higher volume of patients which translates to less time per patient. The patient if anyone has suffered from managed care and reduced reimbursement rates. Many honest physicians simply can't afford to stay in practice if they spend a lot of time per patient. It's sad that people like yourself come to these conclusions without really thinking about these issues.

There are arrogant physicians just like there are arrogant dentists. I have met many physicians who are caring, and selfless but you never hear about those doctors because they don't make many headlines. Likewise, you don't hear about the good dentists because the bad ones are so much more fun to put on the news.
'
You make a good point sir, but from MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I've seen a lot more arrogant physicians than any other health care professionals. I'm not saying they are all arrogant, but it is just from my own experience. I agree that a physician will have to see more patients if the rates fall deeper (and they already have), but there is an equilibrium that has to be met, and I'm not sure we're there yet. Can we just get back to speaking about how dentists are toof mechanics?

Is this pissing contest STILL going on?

Is this pissing contest STILL going on?

Yup, I don't know why mid-level providers are always trying to measure up to MDs, especially dentists. :rolleyes:

Yup, I don't know why mid-level providers are always trying to measure up to MDs, especially dentists. :rolleyes:

Mid-level? We're up that high? :eek: Hooray, oh thank you MS-II! You are most kind Dr.

Yup, I don't know why mid-level providers are always trying to measure up to MDs, especially dentists. :rolleyes:

I meant between BOTH professions. :thumbdown

Degrading other professions to help keep air in one's own ego isn't acceptable. Keep it professional, please.

(To clear up any lingering confusion, "my profession can beat up your profession" posts are not professional.)

Degrading other professions to help keep air in one's own ego isn't acceptable. Keep it professional, please.

(To clear up any lingering confusion, "my profession can beat up your profession" posts are not professional.)

I thought dentists were technicians? Can anyone verify or refute this?

I thought dentists were technicians? Can anyone verify or refute this?




Actually you can get a dental degree at most community colleges; however, you must take all the advanced home ec courses as well as art. Oh, and you can not schedule any 6th period study-halls. That would make lunch 2 hrs long and that is unacceptable.

Actually you can get a dental degree at most community colleges; however, you must take all the advanced home ec courses as well as art. Oh, and you can not schedule any 6th period study-halls. That would make lunch 2 hrs long and that is unacceptable.

Well, I see this thread is now adopting the mentality, "if you can't beat them, join them". Hey, Dr. Pedo, I really like your motto at the bottom. ;). It's applicable here :laugh:

'
You make a good point sir, but from MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I've seen a lot more arrogant physicians than any other health care professionals. I'm not saying they are all arrogant, but it is just from my own experience.

I'd agree with this. Honestly though, doctors are the ones who have the most on the line with regards to patient care. If something goes wrong, every other practitioner will "notify MD". Doctors are the ones who will have to make the biggest decisions, at times life and death, and then sit down to dinner at night with their families. So if a nurse, PA, pharmacist, tech or other "mid-level" disagrees with the physician but the doctor goes ahead and does what he/she believes is right anyway...so be it. This is not ego, this is not a god complex --this is taking responsibility and having confidence in ones training and experience.

I agree that there are some MD's with huge egos, but i feel that most (at least the ones i've worked with) have the patients best interest at heart. In my experience it has been the mid-level people who make something ridiculous out of a non-issue. If your doctor didnt have the confidence to treat you without consulting every other healthcare provider, would you, as a patient, have any confidence in him/her?

I'd agree with this. Honestly though, doctors are the ones who have the most on the line with regards to patient care. If something goes wrong, every other practitioner will "notify MD". Doctors are the ones who will have to make the biggest decisions, at times life and death, and then sit down to dinner at night with their families. So if a nurse, PA, pharmacist, tech or other "mid-level" disagrees with the physician but the doctor goes ahead and does what he/she believes is right anyway...so be it. This is not ego, this is not a god complex --this is taking responsibility and having confidence in ones training and experience.

I agree that there are some MD's with huge egos, but i feel that most (at least the ones i've worked with) have the patients best interest at heart. In my experience it has been the mid-level people who make something ridiculous out of a non-issue. If your doctor didnt have the confidence to treat you without consulting every other healthcare provider, would you, as a patient, have any confidence in him/her?

I guess your conversion happens when you get accepted into medical school. Welcome sir.. :laugh:

I guess your conversion happens when you get accepted into medical school. Welcome sir.. :laugh:

okay jack*****. You don't know me or how long i have been in health care. Besides, who the Fu*k are you?? Hollywood, DMD?? Most likely a 3rd year dental student pissed you COULDN'T get in to med school, or that you have to work only with the mouth for the rest of your life! Sure i just got into school this year, but that means dick to what I was saying. Go ahead and live your life thinking most MDs are *******s, I could care less.

Sorry, didnt read your posts close enough to know you are a troll:

I don't realize why MD's don't just start working on teeth and the mouth; they seem to be able to do everything else according to those on this forum.. you know, heal, confirm, marry, forgive.. I heard that once you get MD after your name, you're actually automatically made a god in heaven. It's just what I heard.

GOOD LORD...grow up, get a life or better yet both. We all have our niches in life, know your roll and play it well!

And i am officially done with this thread! Good luck in your career, dentie :laugh:

And i am officially done with this thread! Good luck in your career, dentie :laugh:
Ooooohhhh! Man, he really told you off Blotterspotter!!!!

Listen frat boy, when you get to med school you'll realize that your pedestal exists only in your own mind. The medical degree is very generic and doesn't confer any special knowledge related to any particular anatomical region or specialty. There is no jack-of-all-trades in medicine....this is why we have specialties. Do you want an OB/GYN fixing your broken leg? Me neither. An orthopedist treats bones, OB/GYN's treat poons, and dentists treat mouths. There are actually no "gods" in health care.

I have a medical degree and I still mainly practice in one anatomical location....the face. Why don't you come back when you've actually started med school and know what you're talking about. Until then you're just another high-school troll.

yes, because this is very common of people who don't go to their dentist often :rolleyes:

You ought to see my patient pool :D

My brother-in-law is a dentist, and while he pretends that he LOVES his job and it is so fascinating and what not... he recently broke it down to me over a few sammies that he only went to dental school b/c he didn't get into med school the first time he applied (low verbal score). he gets great pay, easy hours (and only works 4 days a week at most), never deals with life-and-death issues, and is never on-call... HOWEVER, he is now seeing a psychiatrist on a weekly basis b/c he is unhappy as hell.

I guess the take-home lesson I have is to be DAMN sure that you'd be happy practicing dentistry before you go to school (not that most pre-dents don't know this)... if you're looking to do it as a "back-up" to medicine, you might be seriously dissapointed.
Same story with my cousin and dentistry - he recommended that I stay the heck away from it even though he is "living the lifestyle" of not working on weekends, nice car, home, etc. In fact, he is moving towards a new business of import/ export :eek: Keep in mind, I have heard from a lot of physicians " Are you sure you want to go to medical school?" ... many of them aren't so excited either, but they continue to practice medicine - but more cash-based medicine.

okay, I had to respond because this toof guy would be funny if he wasn't so blatantly idiotic:

Listen frat boy, when you get to med school you'll realize that your pedestal exists only in your own mind.

Where in my past posts did I come off arrogant or on a pedestal?

The medical degree is very generic and doesn't confer any special knowledge related to any particular anatomical region or specialty.

The MD/DO degree i agree is "generic". It is a foundation on which the residency specialty training is built. This is a min of 3 years and more like 7 or 8 if you count fellowship training in some specialties.

The dental degree is not generic, it is very specific...some of the first 2 year class are comparable to medicine but the rest of the time you are focusing only on the mouth. That is why you can go right into practice without any further training. Sure dental residencies exist: general, orthodontics, periodontics, etc but even they are only 1-3 years MAX. The one exception is OMFS where certain programs allow you to earn a medical degree while you complete this lengthy residency (but some dont). Bottom line is not every dentie does a residency and it is NOT a requirement for licensure.

There is no jack-of-all-trades in medicine....this is why we have specialties. Do you want an OB/GYN fixing your broken leg? Me neither. An orthopedist treats bones, OB/GYN's treat poons, and dentists treat mouths..

Obviously. Refer to my last post, "We all have our niches in life, know your role and play it well" ie whatever your specialty is, be happy and do it well.

There are actually no "gods" in health care.

Where do you come up with this crap?? I NEVER said anything about anyone being a "god" in medicine.

Why don't you come back when you've actually started med school and know what you're talking about. Until then you're just another high-school troll.

I have read the posts and since graduating from college I've worked in health care for a few years now. You're a joke if you think your last post has any form of logical response to what i've written.

love,
"high-school frat boy" :meanie:

As you can see by thier posts, they refer to themselves as doctors. And this is true, like there are Doctor of History, Doctor of Sociology... there are doctorates in everything, including dentistry. They say "you are doctors and we are doctors of the mouth - specializing in the mouth". Clearly, they are not physicians. They cannot refer to themselves as physicians. Physicians, specializing in the mouth. They are doctors - and doctor does not equal physician.

This does not mean they do not earn respect. But it's crazy to say you're the same as a physician because you earn a doctorate, just like most of your teachers did - except you know the teeth and they know Chemistry or Microbiology.

Where in my past posts did I come off arrogant or on a pedestal?
Ummm....the last one.

My brother-in-law is a dentist, and while he pretends that he LOVES his job and it is so fascinating and what not... he recently broke it down to me over a few sammies that he only went to dental school b/c he didn't get into med school the first time he applied (low verbal score). he gets great pay, easy hours (and only works 4 days a week at most), never deals with life-and-death issues, and is never on-call... HOWEVER, he is now seeing a psychiatrist on a weekly basis b/c he is unhappy as hell.

I guess the take-home lesson I have is to be DAMN sure that you'd be happy practicing dentistry before you go to school (not that most pre-dents don't know this)... if you're looking to do it as a "back-up" to medicine, you might be seriously dissapointed.

This is perhaps the most ridiculous generalization I have ever seen! :eek: You should be ashamed for posting your brother-in-law's psychiatric problem and making it completely dentistry's fault. How embarrassing. Perhaps a little less "slamming of sammies" and a little more realizing life's truly important joys, would help. And since we're making sweeping generalizations: Maybe there is more to his unhappiness-----hmm. If, not, it doesn't take a psychiatrist to come up with the solution: Here it is, I hope you're sitting-----quit dentistry :o

This thread is so silly that it can't go any further without turning into a Monty Python sketch. Here's my contribution:

I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK

I sleep all night and I work all day


...

Hope you enjoyed it.

This thread is so silly that it can't go any further without turning into a Monty Python sketch. Here's my contribution:

I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK

I sleep all night and I work all day


...

Hope you enjoyed it.

Spam, spam, spam, spam!!!!!!!!!! :)

This does not mean they do not earn respect. But it's crazy to say you're the same as a physician because you earn a doctorate, just like most of your teachers did - except you know the teeth and they know Chemistry or Microbiology.

Except I treat medical and dental conditions, write scripts, refer out, etc. Am I a physician? Heck no--I'd never claim to be.

Sure dental residencies exist: general, orthodontics, periodontics, etc but even they are only 1-3 years MAX. The one exception is OMFS where certain programs allow you to earn a medical degree while you complete this lengthy residency (but some dont). Bottom line is not every dentie does a residency and it is NOT a requirement for licensure.


Even oral surgery programs that don't earn an MD degree are longer than 3 years.

And dental residency IS a requirement for licensure in some states.

okay jack*****. You don't know me or how long i have been in health care. Besides, who the Fu*k are you?? Hollywood, DMD?? Most likely a 3rd year dental student pissed you COULDN'T get in to med school, or that you have to work only with the mouth for the rest of your life! Sure i just got into school this year, but that means dick to what I was saying. Go ahead and live your life thinking most MDs are *******s, I could care less.

Sorry, didnt read your posts close enough to know you are a troll:



GOOD LORD...grow up, get a life or better yet both. We all have our niches in life, know your roll and play it well!

And i am officially done with this thread! Good luck in your career, dentie :laugh:

I bow down to you oh wise one.. :love:

[QUOTE=SigPi]okay, I had to respond because this toof guy would be funny if he wasn't so blatantly idiotic:



Where in my past posts did I come off arrogant or on a pedestal?



The MD/DO degree i agree is "generic". It is a foundation on which the residency specialty training is built. This is a min of 3 years and more like 7 or 8 if you count fellowship training in some specialties.

The dental degree is not generic, it is very specific...some of the first 2 year class are comparable to medicine but the rest of the time you are
focusing only on the mouth. That is why you can go right into practice without any further training. Sure dental residencies exist: general, orthodontics, periodontics, etc but even they are only 1-3 years MAX. The one exception is OMFS where certain programs allow you to earn a medical degree while you complete this lengthy residency (but some dont). Bottom line is not every dentie does a residency and it is NOT a requirement for licensure.

There are some states where MDs only have to do a one year residency to be eligibile for licensure. You seem angry.

Just curious. Why do Medical students hate on dental students? Moreover, why does that hate carry on to medical doctors hating on Dentists. Is it just that dentists make more money easily or is it something else. Please feel free to explain this phenomena.

This excerpt from a recent article in the "Wall Street Journal" pretty much clarifies the tension that exists between some doctors and dentists:

"While medical reimbursement declines, dentistry is booming. Which makes doctors the poor relations of dentists.

I've got quite a few dentists who are clients. In my professional capacity I have found them personable, respectful, grateful for services rendered, not technology-averse, and extremely hard-working in improving their businesses as businesses. For dentists the greatest business challenge is finding and retaining good staff.

I've had medical doctors as clients, too. They've been smart, peremptory, technology-averse, knew more than I did about my own specialty (or gave that impression at any rate), jealous of their prerogatives, and slow to pay. I'm not sure what the greatest business challenge for medical doctors is today. It may be reimbursement.

That having been said I think that there are other reasons for the change in fortunes of dentists.

First, dentists don't seem to be quite as beholden to insurance companies as medical doctors are. Quite a few of my dentist clients don't accept insurance at all. And government doesn't seem quite as involved, either. It may be that entrepeneurialism is a more successful strategy than rent-seeking.

Second, dentistry is structured quite a bit differently than medicine. The really successful dentists of my acquaintance are not just billing their own time but have quite a team of hygienists, etc. whose time they're billing.

Have I mentioned that most dentists' offices (scores) I've been in are cleaner than the doctors' offices (also scores) I've been in?"

The way I see it, I believe that dentistry is not just a manual art but is a specialty of medicine. In fact, at many dental schools, medical and dental students are educated together in the first two years of the curriculum.

Historically, dentistry has been preoccupied with drilling cavities and scraping germs and unfortunately, infections everywhere else except the mouth have been considered as being serious health concerns. The mouth was not defined as being part of the body.

I definitely think there is a growing number of people who are realizing that dentistry is not limited to the study teeth but includes the diagnosis and treatment of conditions which are manifested in the tissues of the oral cavity.

The way I see it, I believe that dentistry is not just a manual art but is a specialty of medicine. In fact, at many dental schools, medical and dental students are educated together in the first two years of the curriculum.

Historically, dentistry has been preoccupied with drilling cavities and scraping germs and unfortunately, infections everywhere else except the mouth have been considered as being serious health concerns. The mouth was not defined as being part of the body.

I definitely think there is a growing number of people who are realizing that dentistry is not limited to the study teeth but includes the diagnosis and treatment of conditions which are manifested in the tissues of the oral cavity.

The guys that started the first dental school in the world (in Maryland) were actually physicians I believe. Schools of medicine did not want to integrate dentistry into their specialties because it was so new and distinct from traditional medicine. Physicans provide a wonderful service and so do dentists, in my opinion. Let's all live in harmony, if possible.. :p

Except I treat medical and dental conditions, write scripts, refer out, etc. Am I a physician? Heck no--I'd never claim to be.

so what is up with chiropractors and physical therapists trying to call themselves physicians? :confused: i think there is more reason to knock on chiro than dentistry.... like evidence vs. no evidence... hah hah hah...

so what is up with chiropractors and physical therapists trying to call themselves physicians? :confused: i think there is more reason to knock on chiro than dentistry.... like evidence vs. no evidence... hah hah hah...

I too think it's silly that some chiropractors call themselves physicians. What are physicians supposed to refer to themselves now? Okay, I understand that it isn't fair to just refer to yourself as a "doctor" since many other professions including chiropractors are doctors. But I thought the term physician was supposed to distinguish them from the general term "doctor" I suppose they could call themselves Allopathic Physician and Osteopathic Physicians but I think that would confuse the public even more than they already are? :)

I too think it's silly that some chiropractors call themselves physicians. What are physicians supposed to refer to themselves now? Okay, I understand that it isn't fair to just refer to yourself as a "doctor" since many other professions including chiropractors are doctors. But I thought the term physician was supposed to distinguish them from the general term "doctor" I suppose they could call themselves Allopathic Physician and Osteopathic Physicians but I think that would confuse the public even more than they already are? :)

Hello,

Now there are three more types of physicians. Someone about a year ago avocate that dentists should be called "Oral Physicians!!!". DP

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=258007

Hello,

Now there are three more types of physicians. Someone about a year ago avocate that dentists should be called "Oral Physicians!!!". DP

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=258007

To health care professionals other than MD/DO, the title "physician" is more about billing and reimbursement than prestige. Why are you so against dentists being called dental physicians? Is it because you are currently a dentist aspiring to be an MD/DO and are afraid that you wont be held at a higher esteem than your dental colleagues? Im just trying to understand what all this hype is about.

To health care professionals other than MD/DO, the title "physician" is more about billing and reimbursement than prestige. Why are you so against dentists being called dental physicians? Is it because you are currently a dentist aspiring to be an MD/DO and are afraid that you wont be held at a higher esteem than your dental colleagues? Im just trying to understand what all this hype is about.
Gee, I bet that's it exactly. :rolleyes:

To health care professionals other than MD/DO, the title "physician" is more about billing and reimbursement than prestige. Why are you so against dentists being called dental physicians? Is it because you are currently a dentist aspiring to be an MD/DO and are afraid that you wont be held at a higher esteem than your dental colleagues? Im just trying to understand what all this hype is about.

well it is sort of like calling yourself a professional athlete when you only play for your city's hockey team or like calling yourself a soldier when all you actually do is reenact the civil war a few times a year with your beer drinking buddies. Also, it would be like calling yourself a professor when you only have a masters and you teach at a community college or like calling yourself a personal racecar driver when all you really do is enter your clunker in the local derby. get the picture?

if you look up the term "physician" it implicitly implies MD or DO. these other professions are trying to steal the term physician so they can try and get some of the prestige that MD/DOs have. why try and trick the public into thinking you went to med school when you didnt?

well it is sort of like calling yourself a professional athlete when you only play for your city's hockey team or like calling yourself a soldier when all you actually do is reenact the civil war a few times a year with your beer drinking buddies. Also, it would be like calling yourself a professor when you only have a masters and you teach at a community college or like calling yourself a personal racecar driver when all you really do is enter your clunker in the local derby. get the picture?

if you look up the term "physician" it implicitly implies MD or DO. these other professions are trying to steal the term physician so they can try and get some of the prestige that MD/DOs have. why try and trick the public into thinking you went to med school when you didnt?


When it comes chiropractors, that's ridiculous. Their diagnosis and treatment methods are not evidence based, and have been shown to cause harm. Yes in their case, they are knowingly deceiving the public if they try calling themselves physicians. Even Dr. is a stretch.
Podiatrists - actually I don't know much about them. I know their education isn't as extensive as MD's or dentists undergo. I respect them for what they do, but they are deceiving the public by saying physician - that's not a term to be thrown around.
Optometrists - limited training again. Not to be equated with MDs in terms of training. Their scope of practice is limited for a reason.
Physical therapists - are you kidding me? NOT phyisicans or Dr.'s.
All the above providers have their own place and are very important (chiro's the least). I respect them for what they do - but if they are advertising to be physicians that's really inappropriate. Physician implies a certain amount of knowledge and practice scope. Dr. implies a certain amount of knowledge and practice scope as well.

Now dentists are another issue - they are specialists of the hard and soft tissue of oral cavity - this is coming from someone who has had a lot of work done by dental specialists - i've had no cavities, but other stuff. They don't try to deceive the public in my opinion. They can rightly be called surgeons. They have their own niche. And I think within the medical community we all think to ourselves, damn how come we're mismanaging our system of health care delivery while the dents have got it straight. I'm man enough to say this. Having said this, I dentistry's not my cup of tea, that's why I went into med.
This is my opinion.

When it comes chiropractors, that's ridiculous. Their diagnosis and treatment methods are not evidence based, and have been shown to cause harm. Yes in their case, they are knowingly deceiving the public if they try calling themselves physicians. Even Dr. is a stretch.
Podiatrists - actually I don't know much about them. I know their education isn't as extensive as MD's or dentists undergo. I respect them for what they do, but they are deceiving the public by saying physician - that's not a term to be thrown around.
Optometrists - limited training again. Not to be equated with MDs in terms of training. Their scope of practice is limited for a reason.
Physical therapists - are you kidding me? NOT phyisicans or Dr.'s.
All the above providers have their own place and are very important (chiro's the least). I respect them for what they do - but if they are advertising to be physicians that's really inappropriate. Physician implies a certain amount of knowledge and practice scope. Dr. implies a certain amount of knowledge and practice scope as well.

Now dentists are another issue - they are specialists of the hard and soft tissue of oral cavity - this is coming from someone who has had a lot of work done by dental specialists - i've had no cavities, but other stuff. They don't try to deceive the public in my opinion. They can rightly be called surgeons. They have their own niche. And I think within the medical community we all think to ourselves, damn how come we're mismanaging our system of health care delivery while the dents have got it straight. I'm man enough to say this. Having said this, I dentistry's not my cup of tea, that's why I went into med.
This is my opinion.

Podiatrists attend school for 4 years after college, the first two years follow an MD/DO curriculum, including basic sciences, systems, etc (some of the programs are with the MD/DO students). After that, they split off and focus on the lower extremity. After graduating, they receive a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine (DPM) and go on to a 3 year surgical residency. A podiatrist is the medical and surgical specialist of the foot and ankle within the healthcare system. They prescribe meds, admit and manage patients, perform complex surgery, etc. They are as qualified as any medical specialist (which is why 90% of our business is referred from MD/DO's). Because of our extensive training, we are often times referred to as "podiatric physicians". And for that matter, if a podiatrist isn't considered a physician (which they are by law for billing purposes in most states), than I'm not sure what qualifies one to be "a physician".
I consider dentistry to be a medical specialty. Not calling dentists physicians because they "only" deal with the mouth (like it's not attached to the rest of the body) is like not calling dermatologists physicians because they "only" deal with skin, or an ER doc because they often have to page a specialist (myself included), or proctologists, cardiologists, neurologists, OB, ortho, IM, FP, etc. These people deal with one aspect of the body. There is no such thing as a do-it-all "physician".
In the end, it doesn't really matter. I'm having fun and enjoying medicine. Let's all work together people.

To health care professionals other than MD/DO, the title "physician" is more about billing and reimbursement than prestige. Why are you so against dentists being called dental physicians? Is it because you are currently a dentist aspiring to be an MD/DO and are afraid that you wont be held at a higher esteem than your dental colleagues? Im just trying to understand what all this hype is about.

Good morning,

I personally do not believe that dentists should be called "oral physicians" but just simply... dentists. It is nothing about me aspiring to be a MD/DO at all and I have no problem about being a dentist. I have made the right career choice and is very very happy with it. The reasons why dentist terminology should be left unchanged :

1. To minimize public confusion. The term physician is traditional reserved for medical doctors (MD/DO). To be technical, dentists are "specialized physicians" too. Dentistry is a specialty of redering medical care where the oral cavity and associated structures are the dentistry's scope of practice. But to tell someone " Oh, I am an oral physician" (although we righfully are) would only spark confusion in the public.. " Humm... what's that? So you are a... dentist?...". "Well , yeah I am but here... let me explain..." It is just simply causing a lot of hassle .

2. Because it takes away of "who we are". Dentistry is a specialized field that requires both competency in motor and mental skills. It is not easy to become a dentist. Ones who could not muster acceptable laboratory work were quickly washed out of dental school. Our profession requires the skill of a "micro surgeon" where we work with millimeters... and in such fine details...The ones who have these skills are DENTIST and we should address ourselves in public as such. It really bothers me when someone tells me " I am a doctor" and upon further "investigation", that person is a dentist. Why would you NOT say you are a dentist in a first place?

3. Because it casts an image of "inferiority complex" on the profession. The truth is that physicians in the past and now are always in the public eyes as the most respected profession in the health care system. That's the way it was and that's the way it will be. A dentist who has 9 specialties with a 3.99 GPA will not be viewed as "prestige" or held in high esteem as a physician who graduated bottom of his medical class (and was held 3 years in med school due to poor grades to boot!) in the public eye. That's the way it is and it is a sad fact that some dentists are not willing to accept. That's why (personal belief) some respected maxillofacial surgeons went off shore and get the "quick" MD degrees to put after their names but have no intention to practice medicine at all. Then why put it there? Image problem here? It simply casts a bad image on one of the most difficult and respected dental specialty as well on ones who earned it.

We as dentists are DENTISTS and we should not address ourselves in any other ways except as being DENTIST. We are a unique group of medical professional and we must not convey ourselves as "dental/oral physicians, doctor (except when addressing to patients)" as it gives the impression that we do not wish to be indentified as "dentist" and wanted to get away from "our roots.." . Plus, it is simply confusing for the public. DP

I recently read an article that stated that dentists were making more money than most physicians on average. Dentists have nothing to feel inferior about if that is true.

Podiatrists - actually I don't know much about them. I know their education isn't as extensive as MD's or dentists undergo. I respect them for what they do, but they are deceiving the public by saying physician - that's not a term to be thrown around

I had the same impression you did in regards to Podiatrists until I went to class with them. At AZCOM, all the podiatrists take the same basic science classes and the same exams as well. They also do many of the same rotations alongside in a ward based hospital setting during their third and fourth years of medical school. The AZCOM podiatrists' training is closer in scope to ours than any dental students. Podiatrists also do a 3 year residency. Of course, not all podiatry schools offer this same course schedule and training so I suppose it's inaccurate of me to say they are closer to physicians in terms of training than dentists. I will concede that.


Now dentists are another issue - they are specialists of the hard and soft tissue of oral cavity - this is coming from someone who has had a lot of work done by dental specialists - i've had no cavities, but other stuff. They don't try to deceive the public in my opinion. They can rightly be called surgeons. They have their own niche. And I think within the medical community we all think to ourselves, damn how come we're mismanaging our system of health care delivery while the dents have got it straight. I'm man enough to say this. Having said this, I dentistry's not my cup of tea, that's why I went into med.

But dentists do not participate in clinical rotations during their 3rd and 4th year. And those rotations are not jokes. They are very real. They include shelf exams at the end of most of them and Step II/Comlex II is a formal board exam that tests you only on your clinical rotation experience. Also, dentists are not required to engage in a formal 3 year residency in a hospital/ward based setting. Oral surgeons are an exception but many of them also went to medical school and have an M.D.

I have supported dentists on this thread and I think of them like equals but they are not physicians. Not having that title does not make them inferior in any way. And this is my opinion, but I don't think it looks favorable if some dentists or others try to adopt the term "physician" in their title. It just gives the impression they are insecure and feel the need to use the term "physician" to somehow garner respect. This is why most dentists will never refer to themselves as physicians in any capacity. They are proud of what they do and know that dentistry is an equally respectful and professional career.

I had the same impression you did in regards to Podiatrists until I went to class with them. At AZCOM, all the podiatrists take the same basic science classes and the same exams as well. They also do many of the same rotations alongside in a ward based hospital setting during their third and fourth years of medical school. The AZCOM podiatrists' training is closer in scope to ours than any dental students. Podiatrists also do a 3 year residency. Of course, not all podiatry schools offer this same course schedule and training so I suppose it's inaccurate of me to say they are closer to physicians in terms of training than dentists. I will concede that.




But dentists do not participate in clinical rotations during their 3rd and 4th year. And those rotations are not jokes. They are very real. They include shelf exams at the end of most of them and Step II/Comlex II is a formal board exam that tests you only on your clinical rotation experience. Also, dentists are not required to engage in a formal 3 year residency in a hospital/ward based setting. Oral surgeons are an exception but many of them also went to medical school and have an M.D.

I have supported dentists on this thread and I think of them like equals but they are not physicians. Not having that title does not make them inferior in any way. And this is my opinion, but I don't think it looks favorable if some dentists or others try to adopt the term "physician" in their title. It just gives the impression they are insecure and feel the need to use the term "physician" to somehow garner respect. This is why most dentists will never refer to themselves as physicians in any capacity. They are proud of what they do and know that dentistry is an equally respectful and professional career.

I can inderstand where all of your comments and concerns are coming from. I just dont feel that its that big of a deal. If general Dentists were to call themselves oral physicians than that could be confusing. However, dental physician doesnt seem like something to fight over. As a DPM, I dont care if someone calls me a physician or not. Its really an opinion. These "turf" wars just get tiring. But technically there are many different definitions of a physician. For example, here is one.

Physician- means a Doctor of Medicine (M.D.), Doctor of Osteopathy (D.O.), Doctor of Dental Surgery (D.D.S.), Doctor of Podiatry (D.P.M.), Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.), Audiologist, Certified Nurse Anesthetist, Licensed Professional Counselor. Licensed Professional Physical Therapist, Midwife, Occupational Therapist, Optometrist (O.D.), Physiotherapist, Psychiatrist, Psychologist (PhD.), Speech Language Pathologist and any other practitioner of the healing arts who is licensed and regulated by a state or federal agency and is acting within the scope of his or her license.

www.healthinsure.com/glossary.html

The only real definition that can be used as a standard are those which are defined by the states. Even those vary.

I can inderstand where all of your comments and concerns are coming from. I just dont feel that its that big of a deal. If general Dentists were to call themselves oral physicians than that could be confusing. However, dental physician doesnt seem like something to fight over. As a DPM, I dont care if someone calls me a physician or not. Its really an opinion. These "turf" wars just get tiring. But technically there are many different definitions of a physician. For example, here is one.

Physician- means a Doctor of Medicine (M.D.), Doctor of Osteopathy (D.O.), Doctor of Dental Surgery (D.D.S.), Doctor of Podiatry (D.P.M.), Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.), Audiologist, Certified Nurse Anesthetist, Licensed Professional Counselor. Licensed Professional Physical Therapist, Midwife, Occupational Therapist, Optometrist (O.D.), Physiotherapist, Psychiatrist, Psychologist (PhD.), Speech Language Pathologist and any other practitioner of the healing arts who is licensed and regulated by a state or federal agency and is acting within the scope of his or her license.

www.healthinsure.com/glossary.html

The only real definition that can be used as a standard are those which are defined by the states. Even those vary.


this website demonstrates part of the problem. no disrespect to your professions, but physician has traditional been reserved for MDs/DOs. No matter how much you talk your profession up, it is not the equivelant of a MD/DO. if you look in most dictionaries, it will state the traditional meaning of the word.... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=physician&db=*
just because you walk and talk like a duck (and even participate in a few duck activities), doesn't make you a duck.

this would be like me enlisting in the reserve army and claiming i have the training of a marine because i went to bootcamp. i mean afterall, i did a lot of situps and pushups in my bootcamp... even had a lot of drills... my training must make me a marine!

this website demonstrates part of the problem. no disrespect to your professions, but physician has traditional been reserved for MDs/DOs. No matter how much you talk your profession up, it is not the equivelant of a MD/DO. if you look in most dictionaries, it will state the traditional meaning of the word.... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=physician&db=*
just because you walk and talk like a duck (and even participate in a few duck activities), doesn't make you a duck.

this would be like me enlisting in the reserve army and claiming i have the training of a marine because i went to bootcamp. i mean afterall, i did a lot of situps and pushups in my bootcamp... even had a lot of drills... my training must make me a marine!

Like I said, there are many definitions of what a "Physician" is. If one entity defines a "duck" as something that walks and talks like a duck, then as far as they are concerned, based on their definition, its a duck. Plus, you're missing the point. No one is trying to be an MD/DO with different letters behind their name. A physician is not necessarily defined as an MD but rather an MD is defined as a physician. This conversation is going nowhere. My personal opinion is that who cares who wants to be called a physician as long as the state defines them as such. There are more important things to worry about, like how to make health care more affordable while at the same time not jeopardizing the integrity of health services. It seems that there is too much emphasis on who is better than who and "I deserve more prestige than you" rather than the well-being of the patient. Or maybe its just SDN.

phy·si·cian (fĭ-zĭsh'ən)
n.
1. A person licensed to practice medicine; a medical doctor. (Sorry DO's!)
2. A person who practices general medicine as distinct from surgery. (Sorry Surgeons!)
3. A person who heals or exerts a healing influence. (My Mom's a physician, YIPPEEEEE!)


[Middle English fisicien, from Old French, from fisique, medical science. See physic.]

This is getting silly guys :)

phy·si·cian (fĭ-zĭsh'ən)
n.
1. A person licensed to practice medicine; a medical doctor. (Sorry DO's!)


That definition would include DO's. DO's practice Osteopathic medicine. We are medical doctors. It didn't say Allopathic Medicine.

I don't think it's a turf war. I think the only people making a big deal of this are the very very few dentists, chiropractors and podiatrists who insist they must have "physician" in their title. There is a reason the overwhelming majority of them do not refer to themselves as "physicians." And this is because they are secure with themselves and proud of their fields, and they don't feel the need to associate themselves with physicians to earn respect.



Who are these dentists that "instist they must have 'phsician' in their title?" I've never met one. It must be as common as physicians that want to be called dentists.

Who are these dentists that "instist they must have 'phsician' in their title?" I've never met one. It must be as common as physicians that want to be called dentists.

i have not heard of a dentist like this either... however i have met many (or seen many) podiatrists and chiropractors who want to call themselves physicians. Perhaps this stems from the fact that a majority of chiropractors & podiatrists started out as premed and didnt make the cut. This is what I have always assumed.

Although this may sound trivial, it is important that the public be able to distinguish the difference in training. For example, I know of a guy who died because he went off his blood pressure medicine because a chiropractic physician told him a natural herb would work better. The guy assumed he went to medical school because he called himself a physician.

i think most people would laugh at a student who just went through ROTC and army bootcamp in college who referred to himself as a marine. People who refer to themselves as physicians who have not went through med school are doing the same thing- trying to boost themselves up a notch.

That definition would include DO's. DO's practice Osteopathic medicine. We are medical doctors. It didn't say Allopathic Medicine.
Well then it would include Doctors of Podiatric Medicine (DPM's) as well. That's not my point. My point is that a "physician" is defined in many different ways. So, whatever floats your boat!

phy·si·cian (fĭ-zĭsh'ən)
n.
1. A person licensed to practice medicine; a medical doctor. (Sorry DO's!)
2. A person who practices general medicine as distinct from surgery. (Sorry Surgeons!)
3. A person who heals or exerts a healing influence. (My Mom's a physician, YIPPEEEEE!)


[Middle English fisicien, from Old French, from fisique, medical science. See physic.]

This is getting silly guys :)

Main Entry: phy·si·cian
Pronunciation: f&-'zish-&n
Function: noun
: a skilled health-care professional trained and licensed to practice medicine; specifically : a doctor of medicine or osteopathy

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Who are these dentists that "instist they must have 'phsician' in their title?" I've never met one.

I have never met one either. I was just taking someone else's word that some dentists do this. And I found that hard to believe which is why I argued that very very few do this if any. I'm on your side. I don't know of any dentists that refer to themselves as physician in any capacity. Why would they have to? This whole idea is silly

Main Entry: phy·si·cian
Pronunciation: f&-'zish-&n
Function: noun
: a skilled health-care professional trained and licensed to practice medicine; specifically : a doctor of medicine or osteopathy

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Yep, yet another definition. I do have a question though. I was told by a dental student that dental schools are now putting DMD (doctor of medical dentistry) on their diplomas instead of DDS. Is this true? I was under the impression that a DMD was an oral surgeon.

My point is that a "physician" is defined in many different ways. So, whatever floats your boat!

I could create a random health website with a dictionary that defines Physician to include nurses as well. Then by your logic, nurses should be called physicians too. Whatever floats your boat right?

I could create a random health website with a dictionary that defines Physician to include nurses as well. Then by your logic, nurses should be called physicians too. Whatever floats your boat right?
You're right, you could. And in the end, it still really wouldn't matter. Who cares?

i have not heard of a dentist like this either... however i have met many (or seen many) podiatrists and chiropractors who want to call themselves physicians. Perhaps this stems from the fact that a majority of chiropractors & podiatrists started out as premed and didnt make the cut. This is what I have always assumed.

Although this may sound trivial, it is important that the public be able to distinguish the difference in training. For example, I know of a guy who died because he went off his blood pressure medicine because a chiropractic physician told him a natural herb would work better. The guy assumed he went to medical school because he called himself a physician.

i think most people would laugh at a student who just went through ROTC and army bootcamp in college who referred to himself as a marine. People who refer to themselves as physicians who have not went through med school are doing the same thing- trying to boost themselves up a notch.

Since you lumped podiatrists with chiros I just had to ask. Im not being defensive, Im just curious. What is the difference between the education that you are receiving in DO school and what I am receiving in DPM school? If you want to do some research, I attend DMU.

You're right, you could. And in the end, it still really wouldn't matter. Who cares?

Well, apparently it does matter to some people who took the effort to change their title to incorporate the word "physician" in it.

What is the difference between the education that you are receiving in DO school and what I am receiving in DPM school? If you want to do some research, I attend DMU.

And what is the difference between your education and that of any M.D. school for that matter?

At AZCOM, the podiatry students differ from us in that they take podiatry classes in their non-basic science classes where we take clinical classes like ICM and Clinical Correlates. They don't do every rotation we do during our clinical years too.

Well, apparently it does matter to some people who took the effort to change their title to incorporate the word "physician" in it.

What do you say to the MD's that don't consider DO's to be physicians (and please tell me that you don't refer them to the dictionary website!)?

Yep, yet another definition. I do have a question though. I was told by a dental student that dental schools are now putting DMD (doctor of medical dentistry) on their diplomas instead of DDS. Is this true? I was under the impression that a DMD was an oral surgeon.

Dentistry has been granting the DMD title since the 1800s, back when most practicing dentists and physicians didn't have much more than on-the-job training anyway.

Oral surgeons hold the same degree as other dentists, but a small percentage are dual-degreed (DMD/DDS and MD).

What do you say to the MD's that don't consider DO's to be physicians (and please tell me that you don't refer them to the dictionary website!)?

That's a different argument altogether. Even the most cynical M.D. knows DO's and FMG's are physicians. He would never argue that. However, he would argue we are inferior because our respective schools are easier to get into versus a U.S. Allopathic school.

And what is the difference between your education and that of any M.D. school for that matter?


I dont really know what that meant, did you want me to say medical school instead of DO school? Anyway, I feel like I am insulting my own intelligence just by participating in this thread so I will sign off with this; "Physician" is only a word. It doesnt change how professions will practice, only how they will get paid by insurances. Remember, at one time Osteopathic schools were not considered medical schools nor were they considered "physicians". Things change.

Since you lumped podiatrists with chiros I just had to ask. Im not being defensive, Im just curious. What is the difference between the education that you are receiving in DO school and what I am receiving in DPM school? If you want to do some research, I attend DMU.

not that it matters much, but i am at a MD school. the difference should be obvious by looking at the end product. Med schools train physicians in the aspects of health that deal with the whole body. You have to realize that just because you take some classes with MD students doesn't make you an MD- which is why you will only be licensed as a foot doctor.

Years 1&2 are not what makes a physician, a physician. Years1&2 lay down the very basics so that med students can learn how to be physicians in years 3&4 and on into residency. What do you do in years 3&4? Do you rotate through hospitals/clinics in family medicine, OB-GYN, internal medicine, radiology, pediatrics, general surgery (not foot surgery), neurology, etc? Do you take the same shelf exams these years? Your training may similar to a MD/DO, but it's not the same- not by a long shot. The foot is emphasized in your education (After you have had basic sciences). Please provide links that show othewise. I find it hard to believe you would have the exact same training and yet get another degree and spend your training only on the foot/ankle.

With that said... i don't think i would group podiatry with chiropractic. Podiatry is miles above chiropractic.... as in- there is actually evidence to back it up and you are trained in evidence based medicine. I was just making the comment above that a lot of chiropractors and podiatrists try and make themselves equivalant to MD/DOs- which is completely wrong.

"Physician" is only a word. It doesnt change how professions will practice, only how they will get paid by insurances. Remember, at one time Osteopathic schools were not considered medical schools nor were they considered "physicians". Things change.

If it's just a word, why are only M.D.'s, D.O.'s and dental students applying for oral surgery programs allowed to participate in the match. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the match is for PHYSICIANS.

I will be more than happy to call a podiatrist a physician when

a.) They are allowed to sit for the USMLE I,II, and III
b.) They are allowed to participate in the match aka application for residency

not that it matters much, but i am at a MD school. the difference should be obvious by looking at the end product. Med schools train physicians in the aspects of health that deal with the whole body. You have to realize that just because you take some classes with MD students doesn't make you an MD- which is why you will only be licensed as a foot doctor.

Years 1&2 are not what makes a physician, a physician. Years1&2 lay down the very basics so that med students can learn how to be physicians in years 3&4 and on into residency. What do you do in years 3&4? Do you rotate through hospitals/clinics in family medicine, OB-GYN, internal medicine, radiology, pediatrics, general surgery (not foot surgery), neurology, etc? Do you take the same shelf exams these years? Your training may similar to a MD/DO, but it's not the same- not by a long shot. The foot is emphasized in your education (After you have had basic sciences).


Guess what, we do rotate thru various services E.R., Internal med, ortho, private practice, general surgery, plastics, derm, etc. it just dosen't happen the same time you have your rotations. I am glad to see that you give us some respect. This pissing contest is incredible waste of time. Future podiatric physician

If it's just a word, why are only M.D.'s, D.O.'s and dental students applying for oral surgery programs allowed to participate in the match. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the match is for PHYSICIANS.

I will be more than happy to call a podiatrist a physician when

a.) They are allowed to sit for the USMLE I,II, and III
b.) They are allowed to participate in the match aka application for residency

The fact of the matter is that Pods are defined as physicians by law in most states but it really doesn't matter. I have a feeling that you are not yet in the clinical aspect of your medical training. You will learn soon enough how it all works. However, when the chief of medical staff at the hospital your rotating at is a podiatrist (like the last hospital I was at), I would invite you to go tell him that he's not a "real physician"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it's just a word, why are only M.D.'s, D.O.'s and dental students applying for oral surgery programs allowed to participate in the match. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the match is for PHYSICIANS.

I will be more than happy to call a podiatrist a physician when

a.) They are allowed to sit for the USMLE I,II, and III
b.) They are allowed to participate in the match aka application for residency

We have a match and crps just like you. our dean will one day have us sit for usmle I the time is approaching. We take boards to it is just a different governing body just like comlex.

repeat post

We have a match and crps just like you. our dean will one day have us sit for usmle I the time is approaching. We take boards to it is just a different governing body just like comlex.

Unlike podiatrists, we can sit for the USMLE and apply to the allopathic (M.D.) match because our training is considered identical. As of now, they ACGME does not recognize your training as being identical.

Maybe things will change in the future and when they do, I will call podiatrists "physicians."

Unlike podiatrists, we can sit for the USMLE and apply to the allopathic (M.D.) match because our training is considered identical. As of now, they ACGME does not consider your training identical.

Maybe things will change in the future and when they do, I will call podiatrists "physicians."
I'm done with this. Good luck to you. As I said, soon enough, you'll find out how it all works. And I think you'll be quite shocked! The bottom line is as long as I can prescribe drugs, admit patients, medically and surgically manage my patients, I really don't care what you call me. Take care of the AZPOD boys.

The fact of the matter is that Pods are defined as physicians by law in most states but it really doesn't matter. I have a feeling that you are not yet in the clinical aspect of your medical training. You will learn soon enough how it all works. However, when the chief of medical staff at the hospital your rotating at is a podiatrist (like the last hospital I was at), I would invite you to go tell him that he's not a "real physician"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The chief of the hospital medical staff has more to do with policy and politics. Was this podiatrist the Chairman of Internal Medicine or Surgery? Was this podiatrist a chief resident or an attending giving orders to other medical students and residents. No, I didn't think so

You said "most" states so many states do not recognize podiatrists as physicians. Every state recognizes M.D.'s and D.O.'s as physicians.

And why don't you write to the people in charge of ERAS. Tell them you should be allowed to fill out of one these because you are a "physician"
http://www.aamc.org/audienceeras.htm

Unlike podiatrists, we can sit for the USMLE and apply to the allopathic (M.D.) match because our training is considered identical. As of now, they ACGME does not recognize your training as being identical.

Maybe things will change in the future and when they do, I will call podiatrists "physicians."

I'm done with this. I'm going into surgery tomorrow (triple arthrodesis of an ankle) and I've got reading to do. Good luck to you in DO school. As I said, soon enough, you'll see how it all works and I think you'll be quite shocked! Until then, as long as I can prescribe meds, admit patients, medically/surgically manage my patients, and get paid a lot of money, I really don't care what you call me! On the other hand, next time the ER pages me, do you think I'd still have to go if I told them I wasn't a "real physician"? :laugh: Take care of those AZPOD boys for me.

The chief of the hospital medical staff has more to do with policy and politics. Was this podiatrist the Chairman of Internal Medicine or Surgery? Was this podiatrist a chief resident or an attending giving orders to other medical students and residents. No, I didn't think so

You said "most" states so many states do not recognize podiatrists as physicians. Every state recognizes M.D.'s and D.O.'s as physicians.

And why don't you write to the people in charge of ERAS. Tell them you should be allowed to fill out of one these because you are a "physician"
http://www.aamc.org/audienceeras.htm
Actually, yes! Before that, he was the chief of surgery!!!!!!

I'm done with this. Good luck to you. As I said, soon enough, you'll find out how it all works. And I think you'll be quite shocked! The bottom line is as long as I can prescribe drugs, admit patients, medically and surgically manage my patients, I really don't care what you call me.

How about a "Podiatrist" :laugh:

Actually, yes! Before that, he was the chief of surgery!!!!!!

Proof? Sorry but I can't give you the benefit of the doubt on this issue. I'm open-minded but I'm not gullible.

If podiatrists want to call themselves physicians, I suggest they take that up with these two organizations

ttp://www.nrmp.org/

http://www.aamc.org/students/eras/about/start.htm

As of now, podiatrists can't participate in these. Again, I respect podiatrists. Many of the best students in our class our podiatry students. However, even these students are secure enough with themselves to not call themselves future physicians; they are proud to be podiatrists.

Proof? Sorry but I can't give you the benefit of the doubt on this issue. I'm open-minded but I'm not gullible.

If podiatrists want to call themselves physicians, I suggest they take that up with these two organizations

ttp://www.nrmp.org/

http://www.aamc.org/students/eras/about/start.htm

As of now, podiatrists can't participate in these.
Maybe not gullible, but quite Naive. Just worry about part 1 of the COMLEX right now my friend. I'm quite positive that you'll be of a different mind when you get into the medical world. That would explain why no MS 3-4's, or residents are jumping in to help you out! Theoretical medicine and the real world are two different things! Good luck!

Guess what, we do rotate thru various services E.R., Internal med, ortho, private practice, general surgery, plastics, derm, etc. it just dosen't happen the same time you have your rotations. I am glad to see that you give us some respect. This pissing contest is incredible waste of time. Future podiatric physician


well... what you are saying is the equivalant of an army grunt calling himself a navy seal... "duh, we both go through bootcamp and we both do plenty of situps... therefore i must be a navy seal". Although you may do some rotations through these, the same kinds of things are not being stressed. You are not taking the same shelf exams and you are not doing the same types of procedures. You are focusing on the foot.

Maybe not gullible, but quite Naive. Just worry about part 1 of the COMLEX right now my friend. I'm quite positive that you'll be of a different mind when you get into the medical world. That would explain why no MS 3-4's, or residents are jumping in to help you out! Theoretical medicine and the real world are two different things! Good luck!

No, I'm just good at telling when someone is lying especially when they have lost an argument and are scrambling to save credibility. This is probably why you haven't provided a link backing up your claim when I asked for proof.

And I just researched the podiatry curriculum at Midwestern.

http://www.midwestern.edu/azpod/

just click on curriculum to the left. Compare there clinical schedule to the DO's at

http://www.midwestern.edu/azcom/

Again, the 3rd and 4th year curriculum is completely different. That is the only point that I and others have made. You have similar but not identical training which is why you shouldn't be referred to as a physician.

Maybe not gullible, but quite Naive. Just worry about part 1 of the COMLEX right now my friend. I'm quite positive that you'll be of a different mind when you get into the medical world. That would explain why no MS 3-4's, or residents are jumping in to help you out! Theoretical medicine and the real world are two different things! Good luck!

I fear for your future patients. It are always the people who think they are physicians, without the proper training, that hurt people. There is a reason your scope of practice is limited to about 1/20th of the body (the foot)... it is because this is all your training prepares you for. You are not a physician- in the true sense of the word... sorry. If you wanted this, you should have retook some classes, boosted your GPA, retook the MCAT, and applied again to med school. Good Luck to you.

Again, the 3rd and 4th year curriculum is completely different. That is the only point that I and others have made. You have similar but not identical training which is why you shouldn't be referred to as a physician.

For the same reasons an army grunt cannot call himself a navy seal. Although the training is similar, a physician's training is more rigorous & broader than a podiatrist's training.

Believe me, you're just naive. You beginners are funny! I never said the curriculums were the same.

I fear for your future patients. It are always the people who think they are physicians, without the proper training, that hurt people. There is a reason your scope of practice is limited to about 1/20th of the body (the foot)... it is because this is all your training prepares you for. You are not a physician- in the true sense of the word... sorry. If you wanted this, you should have retook some classes, boosted your GPA, retook the MCAT, and applied again to med school. Good Luck to you.

Look, another 1st year!!!! 1/20th? That could be said for any medical specialist. Don't fear for my CURRENT patients. I would never practice outside of my scope. That is the key word, "SCOPE". Every physician has one. As far as the stats go, any pod could have easily gone to a DO school.

I fear for your future patients. It are always the people who think they are physicians, without the proper training, that hurt people. There is a reason your scope of practice is limited to about 1/20th of the body (the foot)... it is because this is all your training prepares you for. You are not a physician- in the true sense of the word... sorry. If you wanted this, you should have retook some classes, boosted your GPA, retook the MCAT, and applied again to med school. Good Luck to you.

we have a couple podiatrists in our class who did just that. it has to be weird going back to undergrad after podiatry school and taking MCAT. perhaps jonwill will eventually do this.... it reminds me of the guy who always has to buy the biggest truck to compensate... :meanie:

Every physician has one. As far as the stats go, any pod could have easily gone to a DO school.

Why are the entrance stats for podiatry schools considerably lower than DO schools on average? Making up information again. I see you are quite good at that.

To be honest, I'm not sure if chiropractic schools have higher entrance stats than podiatry schools on average?

Why are the entrance stats for podiatry schools considerably lower than DO schools on average? Making up information again. I see you are quite good at that.

To be honest, I'm not sure if chiropractic schools have higher entrance stats than podiatry schools on average?
DMU CPMS: 3.4 GPA, 23 MCAT (higher than some DO schools) No, I won't be doing anymore schooling after this. 4 years college + 4 years pod school + 3 year surgical residency is plenty of schooling for me. Besides, I really enjoy focusing on medicine and surgery of the lower extremity. Remember, you guys will one day specialize too.

we have a couple podiatrists in our class who did just that. it has to be weird going back to undergrad after podiatry school and taking MCAT. perhaps jonwill will eventually do this.... it reminds me of the guy who always has to buy the biggest truck to compensate... :meanie:

Why should Jonwill go to medical school He can just join the mythical hospital where his mythical podiatrist was the Chief of Surgery who was giving orders to other medical students. :laugh:

Why should Jonwill go to medical school He can just join the mythical hospital where his mythical podiatrist was the Chief of Surgery who was giving orders to other medical students. :laugh:
Contact Broadlawns Medical Center in Iowa and talk with the Chief. As far as Chiros go, I wouldn't knock them if I were you (OMM)!!!!

It's been fun chatting with you guys. I've got to read now so I don't get balled out in the OR tomorrow. Good luck to both of you.

DMU CPMS: 3.4 GPA, 23 MCAT (higher than some DO schools) No, I won't be doing anymore schooling after this. 4 years college + 4 years pod school + 3 year surgical residency is plenty of schooling for me. Besides, I really enjoy focusing on medicine and surgery of the lower extremity. Remember, you guys will one day specialize too.

The class of 2009 boasted a 3.37 and a 22 MCAT


DMU will take the GRE and the DAT as a substitute for the MCAT.
http://www.dmu.edu/cpms/admissions/profile/

Yes, these stats are higher than a few DO schools but on average, DO schools entrance stats far outweigh Podiatry schools. Without going into detail about AZPOD's admissions, I will just say that if someone wanted to go to AZPOD, they could go to AZPOD. That's all I'm saying. :)

Contact Broadlawns Medical Center in Iowa and talk with the Chief. As far as Chiros go, I wouldn't knock them if I were you (OMM)!!!!

The chief of the medical staff at Broadlawns Medical Center is Dr. Donald Jensen M.D. He is not a podiatrist. Would you like to try again? I wasn't knocking chiros or pods. I'm just stating the facts. Podiatry school may be less competitive to get into than chiropractic school.

http://www.broadlawns.org/medical_staff.htm

DMU will take the GRE and the DAT as a substitute for the MCAT.


Wow. Looks like podiatry school is the ultimate backup school.. for those that can't get into med school, dental school, or graduate school.... they will except your exams! It's funny how he keeps say lower extremity. I think he just likes to use words that make podiatry sound better than it is. How about you just say "foot" and podiatrist.... and be truthful :meanie:

Wow. Looks like podiatry school is the ultimate backup school.. for those that can't get into med school, dental school, or graduate school.... they will except your exams! It's funny how he keeps say lower extremity. I think he just likes to use words that make podiatry sound better than it is. How about you just say "foot" and podiatrist.... and be truthful :meanie:


Let's keep in mind, we are arguing with a person who claimed a podiatrist was the chief of surgery at a teaching hospital. The same podiatrist who is an M.D. by the name of Donald Jenson, chief of staff at Broadlawns medical center in Des Moines, Iowa. :laugh:

http://www.broadlawns.org/medical_staff.htm

The person he was referring to was Vincent Mandracchia, who is the section chief of podiatric medicine and the residency director for podiatric surgery at the program. These are impressive credentials but this is a far cry from being chief of surgery at the hospital. This was probably an old wives tale that got out of hand at DMU and pretty soon a guy who was the section chief of podiatry becomes the "chief of surgery" at this hospital. You know how the rumor mill goes....

Anyway, I'm going to end my involvement with this thread. I'm giving the impression that I don't respect podiatrists or podiatry students which is not the case. At the same time, I'm showing them no disrespect by stating that they should not be referred to as physicians. They don't have the identical education and training as a physician thus they should not be called one.

Let's keep in mind, we are arguing with a person who claimed a podiatrist was the chief of surgery at a teaching hospital. The same podiatrist who is an M.D. by the name of Donald Jenson, chief of staff at Broadlawns medical center in Des Moines, Iowa. :laugh:

http://www.broadlawns.org/medical_staff.htm

The person he was referring to was Vincent Mandracchia, who is the section chief of podiatric medicine and the residency director for podiatric surgery at the program. These are impressive credentials but this is a far cry from being chief of surgery at the hospital. This was probably an old wives tale that got out of hand at DMU and pretty soon a guy who was the section chief of podiatry becomes the "chief of surgery" at this hospital. You know how the rumor mill goes....

Anyway, I'm going to end my involvement with this thread. I'm giving the impression that I don't respect podiatrists or podiatry students which is not the case. At the same time, I'm showing them no disrespect by stating that they should not be referred to as physicians. They don't have the identical education and training as a physician thus they should not be called one.

wow, good detective work. yeah, i think it was obvious he was full of crap. i

I don't understand this whole debate with pods being called physicians. I view pods (I want to be one) like dentists...specialists in their area. When I was in law school there was a chiro. near where I lived who called himself a chiro. physician. I thought he was an MD/DC until I came to this site. Being called a physician for billing is acceptable in my opinion, but I would refrain from using the term when dealing with the public for the confusion it can create. I agree with one of the previous posters who said that pods lack the training of physicians. It makes sense since MD/DO students do 2 years of rotations plus their residency which is at minimum of 3 years. Being a pod and specializing in foot/ankle issues is nothing to be ashamed...it's still difficult schooling and important work. I will be proud to call myself a pod. and I hope the others on this site do too.

I don't understand this whole debate with pods being called physicians. I view pods (I want to be one) like dentists...specialists in their area. When I was in law school there was a chiro. near where I lived who called himself a chiro. physician. I thought he was an MD/DC until I came to this site. Being called a physician for billing is acceptable in my opinion, but I would refrain from using the term when dealing with the public for the confusion it can create. I agree with one of the previous posters who said that pods lack the training of physicians. It makes sense since MD/DO students do 2 years of rotations plus their residency which is at minimum of 3 years. Being a pod and specializing in foot/ankle issues is nothing to be ashamed...it's still difficult schooling and important work. I will be proud to call myself a pod. and I hope the others on this site do too.

i agree 100%

I think someone needs to remind podiatrists that most people question if their services are even needed in the first place. Dentists serve a need and provide a service that physicians don't attend to. Podiatrists don't do anything that a foot and ankle orthopedic surgeon, a regular orthopedic surgeon and a family practice physician can't address. I would never see a podiatrist if I needed foot and ankle surgery. Do you ever hear of professional athletes seeing a podiatrist for major surgery on the lower extremity, hell no! Okay, I'm sure some pod will pull some random professional athlete who saw a podiatrist once but the vast majority prefer foot and ankle surgeons over podiatrists. Orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons charge higher fees and have a longer wait time so some desperate patient who can't afford to see one of these docs will settle on seeing a podiatrist.

The podiatrists living in rural areas and less populated areas might do a fair number of surgeries because they don't have to worry about competition from orthopedic surgeons. But in any major metropolitan area, podiatrists are essentially limited to clipping diabetic's toe nails, dealing with in-grown toe nails and administering sores and fungus on feet. And the only reason they get enough of that business is because Ortho, FP and IM refer these cases to them because they would rather not deal with those messy foot issues. I was bored so I checked out the podiatry forum. There are so many threads in which ex-podiatry students warn current students to drop out. And there are even more threads where podiatry students express their regret with their decision to attend podiatry school. Maybe some small hospital out in BFE or Des Moines might be desperate enough to have a podiatrist teach medical students but no self-respecting teaching hospital in a metropolitan area would make a podiatrist chief of surgery or an attending with any major authority over medical students.

Your admissions process is pretty much non-existant. Any school that is willing to take three different standardized tests shows you that they are desperate for students. The best podiatry school (DMU) has an avg MCAT of 22 and a 3.4 GPA when most of them will take anyone with a 3.0 and a pulse. This is from the Ohio College of Podiatric Medicine: "We generally look for candidates who have a science and cumulative GPA in the range of a 3.0 average. Our most recent incoming classes have had overall GPAs ranging from 3.07-3.09."

Trust me, you guys have many other issues to worry about other than being called physicians. The idea that you are making such a big deal of this physician labeling is a joke. You should just be happy that anyone acknowledges you at all.

... If you wanted this, you should have retook some classes, boosted your GPA, retook the MCAT, and applied again to med school. Good Luck to you...
.

I think this thread needs to be closed soon by a moderator but I'll throw in my 2 cents before it gets closed. Why this topic is at hand I have no idea... it seems to be pretty black and white.

Where it the gray area in the following?
D.O. / M.D. = Physician
DDS/DMD = Dentist
Podiatrist = Podiatrist
Chiropractor = Chiropractor

And all of the above and many more people can call themselves a doctor of whatever they studied. So what's the problem. We need all levels of people in this world. We need garbage collectors or the world would be a mess, we need schools and professors to educate the world, we need the above for all the healthcare they provide... take it easy people. Nobody is more important than the other - everybody is NEEDED and deserves respect.

Question, should I get a platinum grill or white gold? Any suggestions? Apparently, that'll definetly get you girls so I think I'll focus on that rather than on what name I'll be called.

I think someone needs to remind podiatrists that most people question if their services are even needed in the first place. Dentists serve a need and provide a service that physicians don't attend to. Podiatrists don't do anything that a foot and ankle orthopedic surgeon, a regular orthopedic surgeon and a family practice physician can't address. I would never see a podiatrist if I needed foot and ankle surgery. Do you ever hear of professional athletes seeing a podiatrist for major surgery on the lower extremity, hell no! Okay, I'm sure some pod will pull some random professional athlete who saw a podiatrist once but the vast majority prefer foot and ankle surgeons over podiatrists. Orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons charge higher fees and have a longer wait time so some desperate patient who can't afford to see one of these docs will settle on seeing a podiatrist.

The podiatrists living in rural areas and less populated areas might do a fair number of surgeries because they don't have to worry about competition from orthopedic surgeons. But in any major metropolitan area, podiatrists are essentially limited to clipping diabetic's toe nails, dealing with in-grown toe nails and administering sores and fungus on feet. And the only reason they get enough of that business is because Ortho, FP and IM refer these cases to them because they would rather not deal with those messy foot issues. I was bored so I checked out the podiatry forum. There are so many threads in which ex-podiatry students warn current students to drop out. And there are even more threads where podiatry students express their regret with their decision to attend podiatry school. Maybe some small hospital out in BFE or Des Moines might be desperate enough to have a podiatrist teach medical students but no self-respecting teaching hospital in a metropolitan area would make a podiatrist chief of surgery or an attending with any major authority over medical students.

Your admissions process is pretty much non-existant. Any school that is willing to take three different standardized tests shows you that they are desperate for students. The best podiatry school (DMU) has an avg MCAT of 22 and a 3.4 GPA when most of them will take anyone with a 3.0 and a pulse. This is from the Ohio College of Podiatric Medicine: "We generally look for candidates who have a science and cumulative GPA in the range of a 3.0 average. Our most recent incoming classes have had overall GPAs ranging from 3.07-3.09."

Trust me, you guys have many other issues to worry about other than being called physicians. The idea that you are making such a big deal of this physician labeling is a joke. You should just be happy that anyone acknowledges you at all.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those who tirelessly researched the podiatric profession and brought to light unbiased facts about its training, education and average MCAT scores. It feels good to know that there exist future practitioners of all types who maintain a strong sense of humility and respect for other members of the health care team. It is unfortunate however that our character and integrity is not defined by our career. Thank you all for your kind words.

I would also like to apologize for starting the "physician" debate when I voiced my opinion about the title "physician" not being a big deal. Apparently some of you disagree with me and that’s fine. I could care less if you think I or a dentist should or should not be called a "physician". I only thought it was a petty argument. This whole notion about pods not being proud of being a pod is ridiculous, I am proud of my choice of career. If I wanted to be anything else I would have applied to a program offering a different degree. Again, I appreciate the support. Its good to know that the opinions expressed on SDN represent the general opinion of the health care work force.

Question, should I get a platinum grill or white gold? Any suggestions? Apparently, that'll definetly get you girls so I think I'll focus on that rather than on what name I'll be called.

I hope you are talking about your Caddy and not your mouth. :laugh:

I would also like to apologize for starting the "physician" debate when I voiced my opinion about the title "physician" not being a big deal. Apparently some of you disagree with me and that’s fine. I could care less if you think I or a dentist should or should not be called a "physician".

In all fairness to the dentists, don't drag them into this debate. They were not the ones that had issues with not being called a physician.

In all fairness to the dentists, don't drag them into this debate. They were not the ones that had issues with not being called a physician.

Please rahilazcom. Go back and read the thread. I responded to a dentist who did not agree that dentists should be called physicians. Leave your ego at the door. You're embarrassing yourself!

I think this thread needs to be closed soon by a moderator but I'll throw in my 2 cents before it gets closed. Why this topic is at hand I have no idea... it seems to be pretty black and white.

Where it the gray area in the following?
D.O. / M.D. = Physician
DDS/DMD = Dentist
Podiatrist = Podiatrist
Chiropractor = Chiropractor

And all of the above and many more people can call themselves a doctor of whatever they studied. So what's the problem. We need all levels of people in this world. We need garbage collectors or the world would be a mess, we need schools and professors to educate the world, we need the above for all the healthcare they provide... take it easy people. Nobody is more important than the other - everybody is NEEDED and deserves respect.


Totally agree with ya and well said :)

Please rahilazcom. Go back and read the thread. I responded to a dentist who did not agree that dentists should be called physicians. Leave your ego at the door. You're embarrassing yourself!

You asked if there was a difference in curriculum between your podiatry program and a DO program. When I answered your question, you didn't acknowledge my answer because you didn't like it. I'm sorry if you have failed to convince others that your training is identical to that of a physician but it isn't. I'm just stating a fact. It has nothing to do with ego. I have a great respect for your field and podiatrists in general. I just wish you felt the same way.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those who tirelessly researched the podiatric profession and brought to light unbiased facts about its training, education and average MCAT scores..

Don't you mean average DAT, GRE and MCAT scores. I'm assuming they don't take the LSAT?

You asked if there was a difference in curriculum between your podiatry program and a DO program. When I answered your question, you didn't acknowledge my answer because you didn't like it. I'm sorry if you believe your training is identical to that of a physician but it isn't. I'm just stating a fact. It has nothing to do with ego. I have a great respect for your field and podiatrists in general. I just wish you felt the same way.

Ok? That was random. I didnt respond to you because it would not have mattered what I said. I asked for what you thought and you gave it to me. There was no need to continue. However I will take this as an interest to learn more. AzPod is new, I dont know what their rotations include because it has never happened yet. Neither do you. Thats why I thinks its funny that you consider yourself an expert on the matter. Our 3rd and 4th year are clinicals. Although much of that is podiatric surgery and medicine we do have rotations in various fields such as IM. The majority of our exposure to other specialties comes from the 1st year of residency, where we rotate through ER, general surgery, FP, peds, plastics, cardiology etc. We are treated as a resident of that specialty and are required to perform as such. We take ER call and treat the patients as anyone else would. Although it is not in our scope while practicing, it is in our scope as a resident. I dont think they would let us do this if they thought we were incompetent. I agree that your clinical exposure is more extensive to IM and other related fields considering we spend more time on the lower extremity. We are not trying to be MDs here. But it is imperative that we are also knowledgeable about the body as a whole considering the many systemic conditions that manifest themselves in the lower extremity.

Bottom line glendale boy, I dont care if you call me a physician or not. It will not change the way I practice, only the way I am reimbursed. Just be prepared to see it in literature such as journal articles, even from JAMA. (Im not going to research it for you and provide links, I dont care if you believe me). I see "Podiatric Physician" used in the media a lot too. It seems the public has handled it ok. I dont see what the big issue is. If they took the title away, who cares? I wouldnt be angry at that either. You guys are too concerned about meaningless issues. Spend your little, yet valuable time elsewhere.

Don't you mean average DAT, GRE and MCAT scores. I'm assuming they don't take the LSAT?

Why are you people in medical school? Read the post. Only the MCAT scores were addressed. Wow! I feel like Im trying to have a conversation with monkeys.

Why are you people in medical school? Read the post. Only the MCAT scores were addressed. Wow! I feel like Im trying to have a conversation with monkeys.

Please indicate where I was wrong about average MCAT scores? The average MCAT for the class of 2009 at DMU was a 22. Let me guess, you will ignore me because "you don't have time to research the answer" aka "I can't contradict what you said because it's true." If you really wanted to be a physician, why didn't you at least go to the Caribbean? Oh wait, I think even Ross requires the MCAT. Sorry, I guess they wouldn't take your GRE score like DMU.

Send me a PM. I'll see if I can get you into my alma mater. It's not too late you know. There are several ex-pods in medical school these days. That way you can yourself a physician and no else will laugh.

Uh, yeah I do. Here is the link: http://www.midwestern.edu/azpod/

Just click on curriculum on the left bar. It has their 3rd and 4th year schedule displayed.



I'm aware of this. However, the point is you don't do the exact same rotations that medical students undergo. So when you asked what the difference between your training and a DO's training, the answer is we do a different set of clinical rotations.



That's nice but you don't have the same responsibilities as medical students during those residencies. I know that you are exposed to these areas but the point is it's not the same experience as a medical resident.



I'm aware that podiatrists must have knowledge of these areas however, you just admitted that you are not trying to be MD's (DO's). The point is MD's and DO's are physicians. So if you are not trying to be them then why do you want to referred to as one? If you don't have the same training then why should you have the same title?

I agree with everything you said here except for the part where pods dont have the same responsibilities in residency as MD/DOs. They do, but its just for the duration of the rotation. We are arguing different things though. It all depends on the definition of "physician". Your def is an MD/DO. Thats fine. I agree with everything you say under that definition. With the increasing involvement of other health care practitioners (non MD/DO) in the management of the patient, I tend to define Physician differently. This is a topic that is actually being discussed in a class I am currently taking for my Masters in Heath Administration. There are many opinions on both sides just like we see here on SDN, although in class the arguments are presented in a more professional manner. So at this point, lets just agree to disagree, professionally.

Please indicate where I was wrong about average MCAT scores? The average MCAT for the class of 2009 at DMU was a 22. Let me guess, you will ignore me because "you don't have time to research the answer" aka "I can't contradict what you said because it's true." If you really wanted to be a physician, why didn't you at least go to the Caribbean? Oh wait, I think even Ross requires the MCAT. Sorry, I guess they wouldn't take your GRE score like DMU.

Send me a PM. I'll see if I can get you into my alma mater. It's not too late you know. There are several ex-pods in medical school these days. That way you can yourself a physician and no else will laugh.

Your personal attacks are untactful and unprofessional. I wasnt contesting the MCAT scores themselves. Just explaining why I only said MCAT scores and not MCAT, GRE, and DAT scores as you had asked in your post. the MCAT was the only test that was addressed in the post I was responding to. You must be really confused.

I agree with everything you said here except for the part where pods dont have the same responsibilities in residency as MD/DOs. They do, but its just for the duration of the rotation.

Where are you getting your information? I swear it's like talking to a David Koresh follower, do they brainwash you this much. Unlike you, I'm actually a resident; an IM resident to be more specific. We have podiatry residents rotate at my hospital. They have completely different responsibilities. Half the time, I'm instructed by my attending to teach the podiatry students since my attending doesn't want to bother doing it. I had to teach one how to intubate a patient the other day which is something they should have learned during their third year of rotations. They had absolutely no clue. The others can't write SOAP notes to save their lives. You guys don't have to show up at 5 AM to pre-round on patients. And half the time, you aren't required to be at morning report. I suggest you do a better job researching your information because you have no idea what you are talking about. Their call schedule is a joke too. We beg our attending if some of the pods can take call for us but he smiles and looks the other way. To hear someone say they have the same responsibilities makes my ribs hurt from laughing so hard.

Where are you getting your information? I swear it's like talking to a David Koresh follower, do they brainwash you this much. Unlike you, I'm actually a resident; an IM resident to be more specific. We have podiatry residents rotate at my hospital. They have completely different responsibilities. Half the time, I'm instructed by my attending to teach the podiatry students since my attending doesn't want to bother doing it. I had to teach one how to intubate a patient the other day which is something they should have learned during their third year of rotations. They had absolutely no clue. The others can't write SOAP notes to save their lives. You guys don't have to show up at 5 AM to pre-round on patients. And half the time, you aren't required to be at morning report. I suggest you do a better job researching your information because you have no idea what you are talking about. Their call schedule is a joke too. We beg our attending if some of the pods can take call for us but he smiles and looks the other way. To hear someone say they have the same responsibilities makes my ribs hurt from laughing so hard.

Well, I guess some programs arent the way they should be. Dont generalize based on your one program. I know and talk to many residents both podiatric and allo. Not everything is the way it is where you are. But that doesnt matter. I see that you have already developed your own personal opinion about pods and it probably wont change. Too bad. Many pods are good poeple and dont deserve your lack of respect. As for myself, I have been entertained enough here. Burt may I ask what program you are at?

Please remember that this is a professional forum & we need to be respectful of other medical professionals. We may have different roles and responsibilities, but that doesn't mean that any one is more or less important to patient care.

People can ask questions and disagree, of course, but just keep it professional. :)

If the disrespectful posts continue, this thread could end up closed. Also, those users making these disrespectful posts are in violation of the TOS (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/faq.php?faq=about_sdn#faq_sdn_terms_of_service) as quoted below.

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Where are you getting your information? I swear it's like talking to a David Koresh follower, do they brainwash you this much. Unlike you, I'm actually a resident; an IM resident to be more specific. We have podiatry residents rotate at my hospital. They have completely different responsibilities. Half the time, I'm instructed by my attending to teach the podiatry students since my attending doesn't want to bother doing it. I had to teach one how to intubate a patient the other day which is something they should have learned during their third year of rotations. They had absolutely no clue. The others can't write SOAP notes to save their lives. You guys don't have to show up at 5 AM to pre-round on patients. And half the time, you aren't required to be at morning report. I suggest you do a better job researching your information because you have no idea what you are talking about. Their call schedule is a joke too. We beg our attending if some of the pods can take call for us but he smiles and looks the other way. To hear someone say they have the same responsibilities makes my ribs hurt from laughing so hard.

I have a couple friends at 2 diff pod schools and from experience i have shadwoing at 2 different places, this is pretty much an accurate description of what I have encountered... which is how i have formed my opinion. Obviously, podiatrists only need to be trained well with dealing with problems with the foot... and this is what their training affords. I do not know why they want to argue otherwise.

Well, I guess some programs arent the way they should be. Dont generalize based on your one program. I know and talk to many residents both podiatric and allo. Not everything is the way it is where you are. But that doesnt matter. I see that you have already developed your own personal opinion about pods and it probably wont change. Too bad. Many pods are good poeple and dont deserve your lack of respect. As for myself, I have been entertained enough here. Burt may I ask what program you are at?

What makes you think your pod residents can recognize the difference in training? The ones at my program have no clue. And we are too busy and professional to remind them of the distinction. They just assume they have the same responsibilities. This naivete seems to be common among podiatry students. You assumed your training was the same as a DO student's a few pages ago. This leads me to think that podiatry schools feed their students a lot of propaganda; they are trying to convince their students they have the same training as physicians. Your assumptions were wrong then and they are wrong now. It's unfortunate that you are unwilling to concede a point despite people having more experience and knowledge on this matter. All you are doing is displaying your ignorance and further embarrassing yourself.

And this doesn't occur at just my program. Even as a medical student, I rotated at other programs with pods and they got to go home early and were not allowed the autonomy we were. They didn't have to learn how to put in central lines as an example. A lot of them were not required to do ICU either. If you want an accurate idea of whether you are doing the same work, talk to a medical resident and not a podiatry resident. What do you really expect your colleauges to say: "No, we don't have the same responsibilities. The medical students are required to do much more than us."

Regardless, you are a second year podiatry student. You haven't started rotations much less a residency. When you are in a qualified position to provide an opinion, I'm sure you will offer one then. Listen kid, you will probably never learn the distinction because your future medical attendings are too polite to inform you of how little you are doing in comparison to the medical residents. And frankly, there is no reason to inform you of this distinction because you are not physicians and thus you don't require the same training for your position as podiatrists.

I think this thread needs to be closed soon by a moderator but I'll throw in my 2 cents before it gets closed. Why this topic is at hand I have no idea... it seems to be pretty black and white.

Where it the gray area in the following?
D.O. / M.D. = Physician
DDS/DMD = Dentist
Podiatrist = Podiatrist
Chiropractor = Chiropractor

And all of the above and many more people can call themselves a doctor of whatever they studied. So what's the problem. We need all levels of people in this world. We need garbage collectors or the world would be a mess, we need schools and professors to educate the world, we need the above for all the healthcare they provide... take it easy people. Nobody is more important than the other - everybody is NEEDED and deserves respect.

well put. :thumbup:

What makes you think your pod residents can recognize the difference in training? The ones at my program have no clue. And we are too busy and professional to remind them of the distinction. They just assume they have the same responsibilities. This naivete seems to be common among podiatry students. You assumed your training was the same as a DO student's a few pages ago. This leads me to think that podiatry schools feed their students a lot of propaganda; they are trying to convince their students they have the same training as physicians. Your assumptions were wrong then and they are wrong now. It's unfortunate that you are unwilling to concede a point despite people having more experience and knowledge on this matter. All you are doing is displaying your ignorance and further embarrassing yourself.

And this doesn't occur at just my program. Even as a medical student, I rotated at other programs with pods and they got to go home early and were not allowed the autonomy we were. They didn't have to learn how to put in central lines as an example. A lot of them were not required to do ICU either. If you want an accurate idea of whether you are doing the same work, talk to a medical resident and not a podiatry resident. What do you really expect your colleauges to say: "No, we don't have the same responsibilities. The medical students are required to do much more than us."

Regardless, you are a second year podiatry student. You haven't started rotations much less a residency. When you are in a qualified position to provide an opinion, I'm sure you will offer one then. Listen kid, you will probably never learn the distinction because your future medical attendings are too polite to inform you of how little you are doing in comparison to the medical residents. And frankly, there is no reason to inform you of this distinction because you are not physicians and thus you don't require the same training for your position as podiatrists.

Ok people, calm down. For crying out loud get a hold yourself. I never said Podiatrists were the same as MDs. I was only giving an opinion on the definition of "physician". Im sorry you are upset. I did not intend to offend your greatness. It is clear that you are very smart and as a podiatric student, I am intellectually challenged. Just for clarification, I mentioned in my previous post that I talked to both podiatric and medical residents. Maybe all those whom I spoke with are exceptions to the rule. Lets just take a deep breath, and try to be more civil. After all, this is the internet. No need to prove yourself.

I am glad there are specialties such as dentistry (I have not dealt with podiatry in the ER) - couple of recent cases…

A lady came in to the ER complaining of sinus discomfort (frontal and maxillary) and pain in her upper jaw/teeth. Clearly, irritation of the maxillary nerve (trigeminal V3) - no need for a dentist and an easy diagnosis.

A young guy came in complaining of lower jaw/tooth pain and denied trauma to the face and unlikely impingement of the alveolar nerve – now what? Call a frakin dentist because other than that it would be a disservice to the patient to continue (IMHO) since it is not something a physician could routinely treat. Yes, we can hand out some vicoden and an antibiotic but in the end you need to go see a dentist and we are only putting off the inevitable.

So like everything else –no one person knows it all! Other specialties have a legitimate role in healthcare and I am always grateful they are out there to help out the patient – because I do not know it all!

I am only a first year and I work weekends in the ER (as an RN) because my kids apparently have to eat – so I really don’t know it all :laugh: