As a rebuttal to the post: "Do you resent URMs?" I would like to know what you think are the reasons that only a small fraction of medical students, and for that matter any major profession, has such a dearth of diversity? I'm very interested in hearing ALL points of view. Thank you.
Definition: www.aamc.org
Before June 26, 2003, the AAMC used the term "underrepresented minority (URM)," which consisted of Blacks, Mexican-Americans, Native Americans (that is, American Indians, Alaska Natives, and Native Hawaiians), and mainland Puerto Ricans.

As a rebuttal to the post: "Do you resent URMs?" I would like to know what you think are the reasons that only a small fraction of medical students, and for that matter any major profession, has such a dearth of diversity? I'm very interesting in hearing ALL points of view. Thank you.
Definition: www.aamc.org
Before June 26, 2003, the AAMC used the term "underrepresented minority (URM)," which consisted of Blacks, Mexican-Americans, Native Americans (that is, American Indians, Alaska Natives, and Native Hawaiians), and mainland Puerto Ricans.


Wow. As if this topic has never come up before.

Let's see:
1.) Stability of family(ie, having a father)
2.) Economic background
3.) Quality of secondary education(related to property value which is related to economic background)
4.) Perception of societal expectations for different types of people

Blah.

It doesn't matter anyways seeing as the only people in medicine in this country in the next 30 years will be Indian and Asian. ;)

are u referring to minorities in general or specifically urms? bc if its the former, then there is a LOT of diversity, especially asians and asian-indians...

are u referring to minorities in general or specifically urms? bc if its the former, then there is a LOT of diversity, especially asians and asian-indians...

I think most people are smart enough to realize that Asians and Indians are not underrepresented in medicine.

Try stopping by Duke sometime and taking a look at the most recent class portraits. ;)

JTANK if you read the post carefully the definition is provided. Additionally, Asians (in general) and not underrepresented in the sciences or medicine. This is my last comment unless a question is directed to me. Thanks.

Please tell me what you think...

Please tell me what you think...


No need to bump. People will choose to respond to or ignore your thread in time.

It's 4:30 in the morning here.

Relax.

No need to bump. People will choose to respond to or ignore your thread in time.

It's 4:30 in the morning here.

Relax.
:laugh:

How come only certain groups of minorities need special treatment? Why is it that Asians and Indians can be just as successful as whites without a helping hand? AA and URM status continue to lower the bar for certain groups of "special people" based solely on their skin color. If you can't compete than don't be a doctor and don't blame it on society.

How come only certain groups of minorities need special treatment? Why is it that Asians and Indians can be just as successful as whites without a helping hand? AA and URM status continue to lower the bar for certain groups of "special people" based solely on their skin color. If you can't compete than don't be a doctor and don't blame it on society.


I'm afraid the only answers you are going to get to this are going to be non-PC so most on SDN will not reply to you for fear of reprisal.

How come only certain groups of minorities need special treatment? Why is it that Asians and Indians can be just as successful as whites without a helping hand? AA and URM status continue to lower the bar for certain groups of "special people" based solely on their skin color. If you can't compete than don't be a doctor and don't blame it on society.


Because people like you exist in the world.

Because people like you exist in the world.

:: grabs popcorn ::

:: grabs popcorn ::Hey, that's my popcorn.

Hey, that's my popcorn.

It's the community popcorn.

















And I saw it first.

I was holding the bag. How could you see it first ?

I was holding the bag. How could you see it first ?

It has to deal with the speed of light.











Very complicated.

Because people like you exist in the world.


You are laughable. So Indians or Asians never face racial discrimination in America? Asians and Indians make up far less of the population than African and Spanish decent Americans, but have no problems getting into med school so what are some good reasons why Asians or Indians can't check off the URM box on applications just like those groups? ::Now waiting for the race card to be played and expecting to be called "racist"::

You are laughable. So Indians or Asians never face racial discrimination in America? Asians and Indians make up far less of the population than African and Spanish decent Americans, but have no problems getting into med school so what are some good reasons why Asians or Indians can't check off the URM box on applications just like those groups? ::Now waiting for the race card to be played and expecting to be called "racist"::

Because asians and indians are not URM in medicine. Keep the questions coming, Im here all night.

are u referring to minorities in general or specifically urms? bc if its the former, then there is a LOT of diversity, especially asians and asian-indians...

So why are there so many asians in the health services anyway? Is it because asians are more kindhearted and altruistic, :rolleyes: or are they better at convincing people that they are, or is it just because they have better numbers/ecs?

sorry to get off topic

Please tell me what you think...
in addition to other views given, perhaps they are not interested in medicine or don't think they can hack it.

So why are there so many asians in the health services anyway? Is it because asians are more kindhearted and altruistic, :rolleyes: or are they better at convincing people that they are, or is it just because they have better numbers/ecs?

sorry to get off topic
they often have great numbers

Because asians and indians are not URM in medicine. Keep the questions coming, Im here all night.


Right, so if they aren't under represented, then doesn't that highly suggest that race plays no role in their personal success? Why should race play a role in admissions then through AA and URM status?

Right, so if they aren't under represented, than doesn't that highly suggest that race plays no role in their personal success? Why should race play a role in admissions then through AA and URM status?


Because the govt./AAMC...whoever...decided that they want to deal with the problem of URM in medicine. If you do not know why it is a problem, than I suggest you go do research. I do not think URM and the asian population in the US are under the same social/societal stressors, so Im not sure I follow your arguement.

Right, so if they aren't under represented, than doesn't that highly suggest that race plays no role in their personal success? Why should race play a role in admissions then through AA and URM status?

Try signing up for a good course in African-american history or Hispanic-American history add to it, of course, a good course in ethnic sociology and the economical/educational history of racial/ethnical minorities in the U.S. (particularly: African americans, Native American and Latino). You can't, of course, leave out some studies on contemporary asian/indian history in the U.S.

If that is not available they try a distance/online course(s)

If all that fails, log on to google.com and find a couple of good books on the history of racial/ethnical minorities in the U.S. (particularly: African americans, Native American and Latino) together with corresponding sociology and economy books and analogous books on the asian/indian community of the U.S.

Once you do that, if you don't concur yet with the opinion of the AAMC and the U.S. supreme court on why URMs are in fact underrepresented, and why other groups have "greater" numbers than URMs come back and we will have a good discussion.

Right, so if they aren't under represented, than doesn't that highly suggest that race plays no role in their personal success? Why should race play a role in admissions then through AA and URM status?

I completely agree with you. If you can't cut it, you can't. As a poor (and thus disadvantaged) white boy, you get no help from the adcoms. nada. I would say really poor whites are just as underrepresented as blacks/hispanics/native americans.

I, however, am a lowly asian indian who must face both societal racial discrimination yet enjoy the status of overrepresentation in medicine.

I've learned to deal with my bitterness though because I like knowing that they don't have to lower their standards for me.

I completely agree with you. If you can't cut it, you can't. As a poor (and thus disadvantaged) white boy, you get no help from the adcoms. nada. I would say really poor whites are just as underrepresented as blacks/hispanics/native americans.

I, however, am a lowly asian indian who must face both societal racial discrimination yet enjoy the status of overrepresentation in medicine.

I've learned to deal with my bitterness though because I like knowing that they don't have to lower their standards for me.


Well if the groups overrepresented in medicine(such as asians and whites) start working in inner city areas, improving the health of African Americans, and being role models to African Americans so that they will have a model to improve themselves and overcome disparities, than fine get rid of AA. Until then, I agree with AAMC's decision to combat the societal disparities holding back African Americans(and other URM) because it improves the overall health and atmosphere of our nation. I know you are just going to say, well African Americans should just work hard and overcome these disparities on their own. To this, all I can say is, you have no clue about the history/problems in this country that many minorities face.


*I do however think that AA as a permanent fix is a very bad idea. At some point it will will have to be done away with.

-

I am an immigrant and I understand the many problems associated with being dark skinned and facing a language barrier. I have also studied US history and know the many unfortunate events in African American and Native American history.

It still doesn't change how I feel. My philosophy in life is "you have to work for it." Some people have it worse than others; they must work harder. I will never complain about the process of assimilating into American culture, as difficult as it was. Whatever I decide to do in life, I bring with me my past experiences and my culture. I would be insulted if someone "gave me a break," thus insinuating that I was not good enough to begin with.


Im not sure what you mean by "gave me a break". Are you insinuating that the practice of AA action places URM into medical school that can't handle the workload? The ultimate goal is to diversify the field of medicine and produce good doctors and improve the health of our nation. Adcoms are not just picking an applicant because they are an URM. They actually make sure they have what it takes to succeed in medical school.

I am an immigrant and I understand the many problems associated with being dark skinned and facing a language barrier.

Name the ones you experienced directly


I have also studied US history and know the many unfortunate events in African American and Native American history.

Name your study sources please


It still doesn't change how I feel. My philosophy in life is "you have to work for it." Some people have it worse than others; they must work harder. I will never complain about the process of assimilating into American culture, as difficult as it was. Whatever I decide to do in life, I bring with me my past experiences and my culture. I would be insulted if someone "gave me a break," thus insinuating that I was not good enough to begin with.

This is no doubt your opinion, after all obstacles most URMs encounter in their life, if one or two got a "break" and returned to its community to improve the lives of others who did not get the break and help destroy the poverty/sub-par education belts I would applaud it and call it social justice.

At least we know what 'over-representation' in medicine does for certain minorities-> Produces a competitive edge and a reputation for excellence worthy of envy. Good job asians, good job indians.

This is ofcourse excluding Dr. Jayant Patel aka "Doctor Death" by the BBC and "Dr. Evil" by I forget where - maybe Time magazine or US News or maybe it was Maxim :rolleyes:

I completely agree with you. If you can't cut it, you can't. As a poor (and thus disadvantaged) white boy, you get no help from the adcoms. nada. I would say really poor whites are just as underrepresented as blacks/hispanics/native americans.
What about if you live in a poor under-represented area in medicine? For instance on my AMCAS application there is a "(U)" next to both my place of birth and my current residence, and I am white. I know this is not the same as URM, but does it help at all for those who are not URM yet come from poor neighborhoods?

What about if you live in a poor under-represented area in medicine? For instance on my AMCAS application there is a "(U)" next to both my place of birth and my current residence, and I am white. I know this is not the same as URM, but does it help at all for those who are not URM yet come from poor neighborhoods?


Under the new position of the supreme court regarding A.A. it does plasticMan

Under the new position of the supreme court regarding A.A. it does plasticMan
:thumbup: :clap:

Name the ones you experienced directly



Name your study sources please



This is no doubt your opinion, after all obstacles most URMs encounter in their life, if one or two got a "break" and returned to its community to improve the lives of others who did not get the break and help destroy the poverty/sub-par education belts I would applaud it and call it social justice.

I read Roark's books on American history for my ap us history class. There are 2 editions of the book, one through the civil war and reconstruction, the 2nd from then to the modern era.

As far as personal racism experience, I remember the the summer after 10th grade when i was working at a local store as a cashier, I was told "to go back to my country and let americans do the job" by an annoyed customer after I couldn't figure out what he was asking for. Mind you, I speak fluent Engish.

But this is hardly the point. I'm not trying to "justify" my opinion to you. It is just that...my opinion. I'm not saying urm's get in BECAUSE of their race/ethnicity. But we can all agree it helps. White/Asians/Indians with similar stats are passed up for a few urm's that aren't necessarily better qualified AND some better qualified applicants are rejected.

Back to the original question - I think there are fewer URMs in medicine because there are few who are motivated to pursue a long career training process; many want to make money right away. There are fewer role models in medicine, and more in the media. I work at NIH, and I was talking with a African-American biotech sales rep. He had decent MCAT scores (above 30) but said he had no energy or patience for medical school. I was disgusted, but at least he as making a lot of money now. Also, I've had URM classmates/friennds who declared medicine freshman year, but by senior year, they gave up. It is true, some just don't have the desire. This is also true for non-URMs. However, these situations don't make affirmative action any less necessary.

There are fewer URM medical school applicants to start with - especially African-Americans. Yet, the acceptance rate for most URMs - especially African-Americans - is lower than all the other racial/ethnic groups. See the AAMC website.

In other words - despite the efforts of affirmative action and active recruitment, URM enrollment is now at an all-time low. So those who are crying against affirmative action should reevaluate their thinking and see that affirmative action is not a problem. URMs are not taking non-URM spots.

One more thing - slightly off topic: It seems that people are using the affirmative action debate to attack all URM applicants. For the privileged URMs, their stats are pretty comparable to the average statistics. Some URMs even have higher stats. Yet some non-URMs will still complain that these URMs were accepted simply because of URM status. These URMs have high acceptance rates.

For the less privileged URMs (the ones who really should benefit from affirmative action): they have had it rough, but they still have desires to improve the healthcare of their communities. Yet these URMs are attacked because they have lower stats. Many non-URMs think these URMs are less qualified to hack it in the medical profession.

The prevalance of these opinions - especially the first - shows how ignorant we can be. No one is perfect, we are all human. So to rectify a human error, we try a "non-human" approach - affirmative action. As long as these opinions of URMs prevail, the longer we will need affirmative action. So if you want affirmative action to go away, then the ignorant should keep their negative perceptions at bay so that many from different walks of life can pursue their professional dreams.

Go ahead flame away. I have said my piece, and I will post no more.

You are laughable. So Indians or Asians never face racial discrimination in America? Asians and Indians make up far less of the population than African and Spanish decent Americans, but have no problems getting into med school so what are some good reasons why Asians or Indians can't check off the URM box on applications just like those groups? ::Now waiting for the race card to be played and expecting to be called "racist"::


Because so many asians and south asians apply to med school. Isn't that like a cultural thing?

Aren't they disowned if they do not go into science. I hear that in many cases the parents attempt to force them into the profession.

I read Roark's books on American history for my ap us history class. There are 2 editions of the book, one through the civil war and reconstruction, the 2nd from then to the modern era.

No offense intented, but You are officially unqualified and unlearned in the area of the URM experience. You may confirm this with the head of African-american history of your nearest university with such a department - contact them for a chat and you'll see.


As far as personal racism experience, I remember the the summer after 10th grade when i was working at a local store as a cashier, I was told "to go back to my country and let americans do the job" by an annoyed customer after I couldn't figure out what he was asking for.

Having one or a few such experiences does not put you in the pool of those who share a historical and systematical lack of access and resources bro...


Mind you, I speak fluent Engish.

More than what many URMs can claim...


But this is hardly the point. I'm not trying to "justify" my opinion to you. It is just that...my opinion.

No one said you are, my replies are not intents to coerce you from expressing your constitutionally protected right to free speech, I am just making use of the very same right homes


I'm not saying urm's get in BECAUSE of their race/ethnicity. But we can all agree it helps.


As it should as can be seen by most sensible/educated people once they become "truly" conscious of the URM experience in the U.S.



White/Asians/Indians with similar stats are passed up for a few urm's that aren't necessarily better qualified AND some better qualified applicants are rejected.


better qualified in terms of numbers? perhaps, so are other equally qualified applicants passed up for other equally qualified ones, there just are not enough seats. So some of those seats are reserved for the purposes of social justice and the hope of improving medical service to underserved communities, I say Well done!!, about time!! (y)


The job of most medical institutions is not to accept a full class of 40+ MCAT 4.0 GPA applicants - their primary job is to serve the medical needs of the people of the U.S. - by accepting some URMs that missions is indeed being accomplished.

in addition to other views given, perhaps they are not interested in medicine or don't think they can hack it.

But WHY are they not interested in medicine or they don't think they can hack it?


Its based on a lot of factors. If you can't even get an A/B average in high school or junior college, then you will never even think about becoming a professional in general. Why would ONLY URMs decide not to become a professional? Your comment made it seem as if it were a lazy decision, but its just that some URM (mostly b/c of socioeconomic factors) are having a hard time even getting into college b/c of various barriers (language, financial, etc.) The UC system is seeing a statewide drop in URMs in college...so its not surprising that they have a hard time even getting in the right numbers for med school..

Having one or a few such experiences does not put you in the pool of those who share a historical and systematical lack of access and resources bro...


I'm sorry, but do you personally know Karat? If not (which I suspect is the case, since you called her "bro"), then you are supremely unqualified to make any pronouncements about what her experience as an immigrant in the US was like. In fact, making such assumptions about her background might even put you in the same "pool" as people who assume that URM's are unqualified matriculants of medical school. Imagine that.

You are laughable. So Indians or Asians never face racial discrimination in America? Asians and Indians make up far less of the population than African and Spanish decent Americans, but have no problems getting into med school so what are some good reasons why Asians or Indians can't check off the URM box on applications just like those groups? ::Now waiting for the race card to be played and expecting to be called "racist"::

this is the weirdest thing i've read all morning. and i've been reading the URM threads constantly bc they're so much fun.

I'm sorry, but do you personally know Karat? If not (which I suspect is the case, since you called her "bro"), then you are supremely unqualified to make any pronouncements about what her experience as an immigrant in the US was like. In fact, making such assumptions about her background might even put you in the same "pool" as people who assume that URM's are unqualified matriculants of medical school. Imagine that.


While I admire your loyal attempt to come out and defend karat, I must inform you, you are sorely mistaken at your criticism of my reply to karat.

If you would return to my reply, you will realize I was replying to karat's own admission and narration of her/his experience as an immigrant. So you are mistaken at claiming I know nothing about her experience, I asked Karat to let me in her/his experience, and once she did I replied to that only

I usually call bro' sis' homes, etc to most people indiscriminately, no offense intended and you would be too temperamental to take it as one.

In conclusion, hold your horses and kindly realize I have not done what you have accused me of ;)

The job of most medical institutions is not to accept a full class of 40+ MCAT 4.0 GPA applicants - their primary job is to serve the medical needs of the people of the U.S. - by accepting some URMs that missions is indeed being accomplished.
I think you make a very good point there. I have been wondering why immigrants or people of descent from eastern europe or previous USSR countries are not URMs. People that come from ex USSR are prolly just as poor and underprivledged as those represened as URM; however, the communities in the U.S. of these people are much smaller. There are many more underprivledged African American and Hispanic communities that need to be served medically.

I am an immigrant and I understand the many problems associated with being dark skinned and facing a language barrier. I have also studied US history and know the many unfortunate events in African American and Native American history.

It still doesn't change how I feel. My philosophy in life is "you have to work for it." Some people have it worse than others; they must work harder. I will never complain about the process of assimilating into American culture, as difficult as it was. Whatever I decide to do in life, I bring with me my past experiences and my culture. I would be insulted if someone "gave me a break," thus insinuating that I was not good enough to begin with.

What the F you talking about. George W. Bush (white male caucasian - C student) didnt he get a break in Yale because his family was rich and famous. Today a C student is the president of the United States. SO much for the "smartest must always be the ones to get the best".

I'm sorry, but do you personally know Karat? If not (which I suspect is the case, since you called her "bro"), then you are supremely unqualified to make any pronouncements about what her experience as an immigrant in the US was like. In fact, making such assumptions about her background might even put you in the same "pool" as people who assume that URM's are unqualified matriculants of medical school. Imagine that.

Thanks for standing up for me pepper, we should def hang out if we both end up at buffalo. :)

I just want to make it clear that I don't mean to offend anybody. Of course I understand that there has been a great deal of injustice (and ongoing justice today) in America. I know that people are not privileged like I am. I am not contradicting the unfortunate circumstances of many.

All I am saying is that when it comes to something like med school admissions, it's hard as an applicant to accept that it is an sometimes others' race is often an advantage (and often a disadvantage).

In my opinion, it is just as wrong to favor somebody on the basis of their race/ethnicity/sex/religion as it is to discriminate against them on the same basis. And yes, I do think that urm's receive a little special consideration when it comes to admissions...they are not ALWAYS held up to the same standard (yes, I'm talking about numbers here) as their non-urm peers. I know that a good doctor is not always determined by numbers blah blah, but come on there is a reason these things exist.

Once again, I do not mean to offend anyone with my OPINION. But I've wasted enough of my day with this thread. AAMC policies are out of my control just like AA. I will go back to worrying about things I can control.

Originally Posted by dreamcrusher
You are laughable. So Indians or Asians never face racial discrimination in America? Asians and Indians make up far less of the population than African and Spanish decent Americans, but have no problems getting into med school so what are some good reasons why Asians or Indians can't check off the URM box on applications just like those groups? ::Now waiting for the race card to be played and expecting to be called "racist"::




this is the weirdest thing i've read all morning. and i've been reading the URM threads constantly bc they're so much fun.


It's obviously a typo. Sue me.

While I admire your loyal attempt to come out and defend karat, I must inform you, you are sorely mistaken at your criticism of my reply to karat.

If you would return to my reply, you will realize I was replying to karat's own admission and narration of her/his experience as an immigrant. So you are mistaken at claiming I know nothing about her experience, I asked Karat to let me in her/his experience, and once she did I replied to that only

I usually call bro' sis' homes, etc to most people indiscriminately, no offense intended and you would be too temperamental to take it as one.

In conclusion, hold your horses and kindly realize I have not done what you have accused me of ;)

Haha, touche. Of course I realize that the term bro' is used indiscriminately, I was just trying to point out that you probably don't know everything about the poster. Just because you asked for specific experiences doesn't mean that she will then go ahead and post every discriminatory experience encountered from age 0. She gave an EXAMPLE of one such experience. It seemed pretty clear to me... And just because you preface a statement with "no offense" ("No offense intented, but You are officially unqualified and unlearned in the area of the URM experience") doesn't mean that it's not offensive. Particularly if you don't know anything about the poster's background, but simply assume that the example she gave of discrimination is the only one she has had. I certainly agree with many of your other comments in this thread, and even your responses to other parts of karat's post. However, the above snipped just struck me as rather uninformed and offensive.

I read Roark's books on American history for my ap us history class. There are 2 editions of the book, one through the civil war and reconstruction, the 2nd from then to the modern era.

Dude, that is a horrible source for real history. In order to understand history you must delve deeper than the blah blah PCstuff offered by AP history. They are not gonna give the whole story. You wanna get the whole story from the eyes of minorities or the souls of certain minority groups in this country? Try these for size: Souls of Black folk by WEB DuBois. Roots by Alex Haley. Autobiography of Malcolm X also by Haley. Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. Any non-fiction book on classical and modern black nationalism (and the US government's attempt to stifle it). Then Karat get back to me. Talking about black Americans, give me one other group of peoples whose history, culture, and dignity were stripped away? Ask any African American where their ancestors are from? Less than 1 and 10 (assuming they are not 2nd generation foreign) will not be able to tell you. And no, Africa is not a country.

What all those who "resent URMs" should stop and think about is how the world is viewed and encountered by certain minority groups in this country. I always like to present this thought experiment in racial debates: White people who are reading this, picture a time that you have been in the minority esp. among black people. I'm not talking about like 2 or 3. I'm talking about scores. Have you ever been in this situation? If so how did you feel. Probably how you felt is how many minorities feel on a daily basis. Go into any inner city school and ask them who their role models are. Seriously 99% of them will mention a musician, athlete, or other entertainer. Ask white kids the same question, the percentage will still be very high, but less than black kids. Why? bc there are many more successful white politicians, businessmen, etc. that are on TV and highlited by the media. As a URM, ORM, or whatever when you go home today, turn on the TV and observe it what situations you see whites in the media etc. and in what situations you see blacks in the media etc. Then do some serious thinking. Sorry for the ramble. But some of you need to take a step back and think about the "Souls of Black Folk"

I read Roark's books on American history for my ap us history class. There are 2 editions of the book, one through the civil war and reconstruction, the 2nd from then to the modern era.

Dude, that is a horrible source for real history. In order to understand history you must delve deeper than the blah blah PCstuff offered by AP history. They are not gonna give the whole story. You wanna get the whole story from the eyes of minorities or the souls of certain minority groups in this country? Try these for size: Souls of Black folk by WEB DuBois. Roots by Alex Haley. Autobiography of Malcolm X also by Haley. Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. Any non-fiction book on classical and modern black nationalism (and the US government's attempt to stifle it). Then Karat get back to me. Talking about black Americans, give me one other group of peoples whose history, culture, and dignity were stripped away? Ask any African American where their ancestors are from? Less than 1 and 10 (assuming they are not 2nd generation foreign) will not be able to tell you. And no, Africa is not a country.

What all those who "resent URMs" should stop and think about is how the world is viewed and encountered by certain minority groups in this country. I always like to present this thought experiment in racial debates: White people who are reading this, picture a time that you have been in the minority esp. among black people. I'm not talking about like 2 or 3. I'm talking about scores. Have you ever been in this situation? If so how did you feel. Probably how you felt is how many minorities feel on a daily basis. Go into any inner city school and ask them who their role models are. Seriously 99% of them will mention a musician, athlete, or other entertainer. Ask white kids the same question, the percentage will still be very high, but less than black kids. Why? bc there are many more successful white politicians, businessmen, etc. that are on TV and highlited by the media. As a URM, ORM, or whatever when you go home today, turn on the TV and observe it what situations you see whites in the media etc. and in what situations you see blacks in the media etc. Then do some serious thinking. Sorry for the ramble. But some of you need to take a step back and think about the "Souls of Black Folk"

I've seen many threads on this, and I think the subject should be put to rest.

I honestly believe this thread needs to come to an end, but at the same time I do believe the main reason for a far lower rate of representation is that there is far less emphasis put on education in inner cities and extreme rural settings (the latter being what I grew up in and the few of us who planned to attend college in something non-farm related were actively discouraged from doing so by the "respected" members of the community).

here are a few thoughts for what they are worth, probably just repeating what has already been said 10000000 times, i hate to beat the dead horse, but here goes..

1) we have an extremely diverse country so we need to train equally diverse physicians to treat everyone to the highest possible medical standards (which includes a first-hand cultural understanding)...if we trained only non-minority physicians, a huge population (the majority in california) would become more marginalized than they are today...currently, our best efforts at increasing representation in medicine are still failing

2) we need to see success given resources, not success on an absolute scale. by that i mean, if priveledge/status/resources can be viewed on a point scale, a URM that starts off @ -10 and works himself/herself up to a 50 is a lot more impressive than a non-URM who starts at 45 and works up to 60...(real life examples of barriers that minorities in underpriviledged communities face are: poor hs science education, necessity to provide income to family for rent/food, social/cultural low expectations, peers who often are not successful and even encourage failure, lack of proper role models like supportive school counselors, teachers and momma and poppa MDs (legacy), just plain negative inertia)



the real sad thing is that the applicants who are truly underrepresented and could contribute most to these threads are the ones that are holding 1 or 2 jobs right now just to pay the obscene cost of med school apps (just like they did to pay for college and probably to contribute to their family income during HS) SDN would be a completely different place if it represented all applicants, not just the ones priveledged enough to be able to waste hours and hours on it..........just a thought

I don't know why people hate these type of posts so much, they always provide me with some comedic relief.

Doh! me says there aren't many minorities in medicine because there is a minority of minorities applying to a field that a *minority* of both majorities and minorities apply for. Those that do choose a minority field are naturally going to be composed of a majority of majorities applying. :laugh:

eh i screwd it up too,lol too many minorities and majorities to keep straight :D

I don't know why people hate these type of posts so much, they always provide me with some comedic relief.

Doh! me says there aren't many minorities in medicine because there is a minority of minorities applying to a field that a majority of both majorities and minorities apply for. Those that do choose a minority field are naturally going to be composed of a majority of majorities applying. :laugh:

well played, sir! :thumbup:

intrinsic differences. i dont care if nobody else has the guts to say it. i suspect a mass no confidence vote now. typical.

ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

So why are there so many asians in the health services anyway? Is it because asians are more kindhearted and altruistic, :rolleyes: or are they better at convincing people that they are, or is it just because they have better numbers/ecs?

sorry to get off topic

I was told by an asian (and have also read it a bunch on these forums) that it's too make their parents proud, and/or their parents pressure them into it.

this is the weirdest thing i've read all morning. and i've been reading the URM threads constantly bc they're so much fun.

I think it was a typo, he meant to type descent (descended)

I was told by an asian (and have also read it a bunch on these forums) that it's too make their parents proud, and/or their parents pressure them into it.

I have also heard the same from Indians and Asians alike. Apparently the only profession their parents see fit for them is Medicine. So many of them are just in it because of their parent's wishes.
So that is the answer to one of the questions: how come there are more Asians and Indians than other minorities in medicine? It's a cultural thing.

here are a few thoughts for what they are worth, probably just repeating what has already been said 10000000 times, i hate to beat the dead horse, but here goes..

1) we have an extremely diverse country so we need to train equally diverse physicians to treat everyone to the highest possible medical standards (which includes a first-hand cultural understanding)...if we trained only non-minority physicians, a huge population (the majority in california) would become more marginalized than they are today...currently, our best efforts at increasing representation in medicine are still failing

2) we need to see success given resources, not success on an absolute scale. by that i mean, if priveledge/status/resources can be viewed on a point scale, a URM that starts off @ -10 and works himself/herself up to a 50 is a lot more impressive than a non-URM who starts at 45 and works up to 60...(real life examples of barriers that minorities in underpriviledged communities face are: poor hs science education, necessity to provide income to family for rent/food, social/cultural low expectations, peers who often are not successful and even encourage failure, lack of proper role models like supportive school counselors, teachers and momma and poppa MDs (legacy), just plain negative inertia)



the real sad thing is that the applicants who are truly underrepresented and could contribute most to these threads are the ones that are holding 1 or 2 jobs right now just to pay the obscene cost of med school apps (just like they did to pay for college and probably to contribute to their family income during HS) SDN would be a completely different place if it represented all applicants, not just the ones priveledged enough to be able to waste hours and hours on it..........just a thought


While I totally agree with what you say for 2), which is why I'm a huge fan of the AA-by-socioeconomic-status route, I have to admit, 1) took me by surprise. What, exactly, is the benefit of having a doctor of one race treat people of that race? I can see why perhaps sharing a similar language or a similar cultural understanding would possibly make a patient more comfortable with a particular doctor, but I see no reason why a white or asian person could not treat a hispanic patient just as well as a hispanic doctor could (given that the language barrier could be overcome). If I were to be treated by, say, an Indian doctor rather than a doctor of my own background I wouldn't feel marginalized in the slightest, even if our cultures are widely different.

Im not sure what you mean by "gave me a break". Are you insinuating that the practice of AA action places URM into medical school that can't handle the workload? The ultimate goal is to diversify the field of medicine and produce good doctors and improve the health of our nation. Adcoms are not just picking an applicant because they are an URM. They actually make sure they have what it takes to succeed in medical school.
I'll say "hell yes!" If the could hack it then why would they need a stepping stool?

In fact, there was a study done by a liberal on the affects of AA in law students. The study showed that by mis-matching applicants to harder schools then they were prepared for, the students did worse.

Link: http://chronicle.com/free/v51/i12/12a03501.htm

So, does AA give URMs an unfair advantage?

Yes.

Does AA hurt URMs?

Yes.

What the F you talking about. George W. Bush (white male caucasian - C student) didnt he get a break in Yale because his family was rich and famous. Today a C student is the president of the United States. SO much for the "smartest must always be the ones to get the best".
Kerry wasn't exactly the role model for good grades, either, so I hope you didn't vote for him either.

Re: While I totally agree with what you say for 2), which is why I'm a huge fan of the AA-by-socioeconomic-status route, I have to admit, 1) took me by surprise. What, exactly, is the benefit of having a doctor of one race treat people of that race? I can see why perhaps sharing a similar language or a similar cultural understanding would possibly make a patient more comfortable with a particular doctor, but I see no reason why a white or asian person could not treat a hispanic patient just as well as a hispanic doctor could (given that the language barrier could be overcome). If I were to be treated by, say, an Indian doctor rather than a doctor of my own background I wouldn't feel marginalized in the slightest, even if our cultures are widely different.


I dont think the question is whether or not a doctor of a different race will be capable of treating the patient well. I think that some individuals are a bit skeptical of other races and therefore physicans of those races. Being more comfortable with you doctor is incredibily important to establishing a strong doctor-patient relationship. I believe patients will be more comfortable in disclosing more of their health history and complying with doctor's orders (because of the trust they have developed in the relationship). In no way am I saying that an Indian doctor and a White patient are incapable of developing a strong and positive doctor-patient relationship, but I think that its more likely to occur when the patient feels more comfortable with that physican.

Exactly.
Even though a white/black doctor may overcome the language barriers when it comes to treating spanish-speaking patients, they can never overcome the connotations of the language and the culture. A white doctor won't know what the heck the patient is talking about if he says: "me tome un te de gordolobo", "use una pomada de abeja". This is an example of traditional/regional remedies that have uncommon names. If the patient is ill-educated, they will have a heck of a time trying to figure out what they are. And most doctors I know will probably assume that they know what the patient means and misunderstand the symptoms or causes of the illness.
Many of these people also feel uncomfortable with a "white/impressive/many-times-arrogant" doctor, and are less likely to spill information. Patients don't just need someone to look at a chart, they need someone to treat and understand them.

here are a few thoughts for what they are worth, probably just repeating what has already been said 10000000 times, i hate to beat the dead horse, but here goes..

1) we have an extremely diverse country so we need to train equally diverse physicians to treat everyone to the highest possible medical standards (which includes a first-hand cultural understanding)...if we trained only non-minority physicians, a huge population (the majority in california) would become more marginalized than they are today...currently, our best efforts at increasing representation in medicine are still failing


No, we don't. Should we lower our standards because someone has a different skin color then we do?


2) we need to see success given resources, not success on an absolute scale. by that i mean, if priveledge/status/resources can be viewed on a point scale, a URM that starts off @ -10 and works himself/herself up to a 50 is a lot more impressive than a non-URM who starts at 45 and works up to 60...(real life examples of barriers that minorities in underpriviledged communities face are: poor hs science education, necessity to provide income to family for rent/food, social/cultural low expectations, peers who often are not successful and even encourage failure, lack of proper role models like supportive school counselors, teachers and momma and poppa MDs (legacy), just plain negative inertia)


And poor whites don't face many of those barriers? Furthermore, should we be involved in social engineering? Will AA really make it so that there isn't any "social/cultural low expectations" or "peers who often are not successful and even encourage failure" How are they supposed to hack med school when they are expected to "provide income to family for rent/food"

So whites aren't affected by a "lack of proper role models like supportive school counselors" (grant it, I had to beat my HS guidence counselor over the head with a baseball bat to get into biology my 1st year of HS. The counselors did nothing for me, and I grew up in a middle-uppermiddle class area).


Do you honestly believe that lowering the bar for URMs is going to help? Aren't we just actually saying in the end while patting them on their head, "Don't worry. I know you couldn't hack high school or college, but its not your fault. We'll give you a second (or third, or fourth) chance. We know that you didn't achieve to the same standard as your med student peers, but don't worry about it. We'll give you a stool and lower the bar for you." Isn't that just as harmful?

hi seilienne
i depends on how we define "the best treatment" ...

i believe that not only curing the patients condition, but making the patient feel comfortable and understanding where they are coming from (culturally) is a necessary part of being a good physician

so, i would agree with you that if you assume a white or asian person can adequately understand the culture/background/liefstyle/language of a hispanic person, then they would be able to treat that patient just as well as a hispanic doctor could....

however, i believe that this is not an easy task that simply taking a medical spanish class or cultural competency class can teach someone...i believe that it requires a long-term dedication to that patient population with prolonged exposure to the lifestyle and issues they face...thus i believe that a physician who grew up within a specific demographic will generally have a better idea of how to relate and treat that demographic's specific issues and concerns

now, this is not to say doctors could or should only treat patients within their own demographic, but understanding and relating to your patients can go a long way with making them feel safe and comfortable thereby providing better medical care and justifying the need to admit a diverse medical school class

Now that is the sort of logical explanation I was hoping for. Bravo.

While I still think that AA shouldn't be ethnicity-based, that has to be the best justification for such a system I've seen thus far.

hi siggy

here are my responses to your comments::

"No, we don't. Should we lower our standards because someone has a different skin color then we do?"

-- no one ever mentioned skin color, even people within the same race can have different skin colors...this comment is just ignorant

-- also, we aren't "lowering standards" because the standard is to admit the person best qualified to TREAT THE PATIENT...if you think that numbers (ability to test) should be the sole standard in picking the next generation of good doctors, then you are very sadly mistaken

"Do you honestly believe that lowering the bar for URMs is going to help? Aren't we just actually saying in the end while patting them on their head, "Don't worry. I know you couldn't hack high school or college, but its not your fault. We'll give you a second (or third, or fourth) chance. We know that you didn't achieve to the same standard as your med student peers, but don't worry about it. We'll give you a stool and lower the bar for you." Isn't that just as harmful?"

-- i believe that no one is 'lowering the bar' or 'patting them on their head' and i do believe that medical schools are accepting the people who will be the best doctors...there is no correlation between how good people test (gpa/mcat scores) and being a good doctor (at least i haven't seen one) ... qualifications go beyond scores my friend, and scores do not predict intelligence...sorry to break it to you

-- also, the fact that a URM applicant is even in the position to apply to medical school is a testament to their commitment to medicine, determination, hard-work, self-motivation, ability to perseverve and overall strength of character that is necessary in the medical profession......i say we need more genuine doctors and less arrogant, self-satisfying, ego-hungry docs

For the 10,000th time, getting into med school is a whole lot more than GPA + MCAT. Why can't you people beat that into your premed brains? There is NO SUCH THING as and under-qualified student admitted to med school in the US. Seriously, if GPA and MCAT was all there would be no need for AMCAS, secondaries or interviews. It should be obvious to all of you that the fact that there are so many variables and steps to get into med school that it is a highly SUBJECTIVE proccess. There is absolutely no "lowering of the bar" for URMs for med school just like in undergrad admissions there is none for athletes or legacies. It is up to the school to decide who it is they want. Take it or leave it. I have posted on SDN before that the reason somple people resent the whole URM/AA thing is that they harbor some amount of insecurity about their own standing and own "credentials". Why are so worried?

a

hi siggy

here are my responses to your comments::

"No, we don't. Should we lower our standards because someone has a different skin color then we do?"

-- no one ever mentioned skin color, even people within the same race can have different skin colors...this comment is just ignorant

Well, URM is saying that there is no such thing as a white, Asian, etc that had a hard childhood or came from a less then ideal situation? Why should someone get an advantage or a helping hand just because of the land that their ancestors emigrated from?

There are blacks that had a rough childhood and there are whites that had it just as bad that grew up next door to them. The black applicant WOULD get an advantage soly because of his heritage. Something he can't control.



-- also, we aren't "lowering standards" because the standard is to admit the person best qualified to TREAT THE PATIENT...if you think that numbers (ability to test) should be the sole standard in picking the next generation of good doctors, then you are very sadly mistaken

No pre-med is qualified to treat any patient as a MD. We go to medical school to learn the trade of medicine. I'm not saying that schools should look only at numbers. There are other important things, such as clinical experience and research. Just because your the applicant's ancestors came from a different place in the world then mine does not make it right to give them an extra step up.


"Do you honestly believe that lowering the bar for URMs is going to help? Aren't we just actually saying in the end while patting them on their head, "Don't worry. I know you couldn't hack high school or college, but its not your fault. We'll give you a second (or third, or fourth) chance. We know that you didn't achieve to the same standard as your med student peers, but don't worry about it. We'll give you a stool and lower the bar for you." Isn't that just as harmful?"

-- i believe that no one is 'lowering the bar' or 'patting them on their head' and i do believe that medical schools are accepting the people who will be the best doctors...there is no correlation between how good people test (gpa/mcat scores) and being a good doctor (at least i haven't seen one) ... qualifications go beyond scores my friend, and scores do not predict intelligence...sorry to break it to you



Sorry to break it to you, but it has been shown in law students that AA hurts their education. Furthermore, MCAT scores have been linked to USMLE scores. http://www.academicmedicine.org/cgi/content/abstract/80/10/910

Furthermore, if there wasn't any correlation, then why do medical schools even care about your test scrores? If one person is going to be hired or admitted over another soley because their ancestors came from a special place then it is racism. Grant it, reverse racism, but it is still racism.


-- also, the fact that a URM applicant is even in the position to apply to medical school is a testament to their commitment to medicine, determination, hard-work, self-motivation, ability to perseverve and overall strength of character that is necessary in the medical profession......i say we need more genuine doctors and less arrogant, self-satisfying, ego-hungry docs
So, all URMs need help and it is a testiment to their ability, regardless of what their actual family background is.

In other words, you are saying that those poor URMs need a helping hand and that is the only way for them to succeed AND non-URMs lack any of those traits and are just score-whores. And this view isn't racist?

For the 10,000th time, getting into med school is a whole lot more than GPA + MCAT. Why can't you people beat that into your premed brains? There is NO SUCH THING as and under-qualified student admitted to med school in the US. Seriously, if GPA and MCAT was all there would be no need for AMCAS, secondaries or interviews. It should be obvious to all of you that the fact that there are so many variables and steps to get into med school that it is a highly SUBJECTIVE proccess. There is absolutely no "lowering of the bar" for URMs for med school just like in undergrad admissions there is none for athletes or legacies. It is up to the school to decide who it is they want. Take it or leave it. I have posted on SDN before that the reason somple people resent the whole URM/AA thing is that they harbor some amount of insecurity about their own standing and own "credentials". Why are so worried?


Yes, there are more to medicine then GPA/MCAT. The location on this earth that your ancestors came from and the skin pigment associated with it should not be a factor, though.

Yes, there are more to medicine then GPA/MCAT. The location on this earth that your ancestors came from and the skin pigment associated with it should not be a factor, though.

HERE WE GO WITH THE SKIN PIGMENT AGAIN!!!! :meanie:

I am hispanic and I am whiter than many white people. So are my parents (it's stupid for people to assume hispanics are all dark, remember we are a mixture of white + natives). It's not about the skin color, it's about making up for the disparities in healthcare and in society. Racism is still prevalent. When it is no longer necessary we will part with AA. But right now I think it's here to stay.

Will anyone here deny that giving preference to one race over another race is racism?

Yes, there are more to medicine then GPA/MCAT. The location on this earth that your ancestors came from and the skin pigment associated with it should not be a factor, though.

Why not? Med schools are free to choose their criteria. If you say that then you should say that volunteer hours should not be a factor in med admissions. And most premeds have padded their app. with volunteer activities to appease adcoms. Moreover, residency review committees don't really consider time spent volunteering in med school for their rankings. And residency is essentially where you become a "real" doctor (i.e. if you want to practice). Race can be one of many criteria considered by med school adcoms.

And also explain to me how that is different than athletes and legacies getting preference for undergrad admissions. It is very important to your point arguing againstthe consideration of race in me school admissions.

Will anyone here deny that giving preference to one race over another race is racism?

if you put it that way, yes. But you are being unreasonable. People smarter than you created these laws because they have studied the population and have come to the conclusion that it was necessary. I dare you to go argue with them.
It's not about the race/skin color, etc. It's about the disparities between cultures. If a white candidate was educated in good private schools, it is only logical that he will have better scores, probably better ec's, better interships and research experiences, etc. If the black counterpart grew up in the projects, in a low-resource high school, it is only logical he will have better scores. Now, let's say the white guy has a 3.9 from Harvard, a 35 MCAT. He is a good candidate. The black candidate has a 3.6 and a 29 MCAT. Who do you think holds the greater merit, the one who was only doing what he was taught to do, or the one who rose from the bottom to where he is right now. I would grant admission to both of them.
:meanie:

siggy, you're right, med schools look for more than just gpa/mcat, they look for research, community service, clinical experience....

but you also forgot some important things...

they also look for life experience, language abilities (are you bilingual), are you culturally-aware, do you have a passion for a specific part of medicine, etc...

i.e. "soft skills" that will make you a more well-rounded, competent and effective physician

Why not? Med schools are free to choose their criteria. If you say that then you should say that volunteer hours should not be a factor in med admissions. And most premeds have padded their app. with volunteer activities to appease adcoms. Moreover, residency review committees don't really consider time spent volunteering in med school for their rankings. And residency is essentially where you become a "real" doctor (i.e. if you want to practice). Race can be one of many criteria considered by med school adcoms.

And also explain to me how that is different than athletes and legacies getting preference for undergrad admissions. It is very important to your point arguing againstthe consideration of race in me school admissions.

1. I've never claimed to support either.

2. Legacy admissions are just as much of a sham as AA admissions.

3. The difference between Race/Legacy and athletic admissions in undergrad is that your ability in a sport is based off of how much you work for it. You can control your ability and control your GPA. You can not control your race.

4. Volunteering in medical situations is not really padding. By volunteering or working in a healthcare field you are telling the ADCOM that you already have experience working in healthcare. Again, this is also something that YOU, the applicant, have control over.

5. Public schools are not allowed to just make up any old criteria they want. Limits on AA have been established by the US Supreme Court in the Gratz v BOLLINGER and Regents of the University of California v. Bakke decisions. Private schools, on the other hand, are allowed to admit who ever they darn well please because they are a private institution. That being said, you can always put restrictions on grant money to limit any racism that may be present.

6. Finally, you have to get through medical school before you even think about trying to match into a residency. True, volunteering doesn't mean squat for residency. Grant it, you should also have a ton of clinical experience since, by the time you're applying to residencys, you would have over a year of rotating through different specilities.

How much control over volunteering does a person have when:
1) she/he has to work ~12-20 hrs/wk, or even more.
2) needs to get out of school in 4 yrs because unlike other people, mommy and daddy are not paying for it; therefore, taking 12 hrs/semester is a laughable idea for them.
3) he/she does not have a car, money for taxi, etc. It's hard to find a ride, to find someone whose schedule matches yours, etc.
4) does not have a daddy MD to get him/her an intership at a hospital or clinic (as I know many people get them).

if you put it that way, yes. But you are being unreasonable. People smarter than you created these laws because they have studied the population and have come to the conclusion that it was necessary. I dare you to go argue with them.

There is no law demanding affirmative action. Only a few presidential executive orders which left the term "affirmative action" undefined. Furthermore, if you want to take the stand of "don't question things, it was made by smarter people," then I hope you're a support of Operation Iraqi Freedom.


It's not about the race/skin color, etc. It's about the disparities between cultures. If a white candidate was educated in good private schools, it is only logical that he will have better scores, probably better ec's, better interships and research experiences, etc. If the black counterpart grew up in the projects, in a low-resource high school, it is only logical he will have better scores. Now, let's say the white guy has a 3.9 from Harvard, a 35 MCAT. He is a good candidate. The black candidate has a 3.6 and a 29 MCAT. Who do you think holds the greater merit, the one who was only doing what he was taught to do, or the one who rose from the bottom to where he is right now. I would grant admission to both of them.
:meanie:
[/quote]

If it wasn't about race, then how come:
1. A white child in a poor inner-city school doesn't get the same AA/URM boost?
2. How come an URM from a rich private school still gets that same AA/URM boost?

I'm sure that you would grant admission to both. I would to. Given the current averages, both should be admitted, regardless of their URM status (i.e. race). Unfortunately, you can't admit every applicant to medical school. There are simply not enough seats and setting aside seats or giving people a boost over others in terms of how a school doles out those seats on the basis of URM status (URM status, BTW, is based off of the applicant's race alone) is racist.

Did it bother anyone else that "less" should have been "fewer" in the title? That kills me.

As a rebuttal to the post: "Do you resent URMs?" I would like to know what you think are the reasons that only a small fraction of medical students, and for that matter any major profession, has such a dearth of diversity? I'm very interested in hearing ALL points of view.
There are plenty of professions that are quite diverse - my fellow EMTs are all over the racial rainbow - but as you climb the academic ladder, you tend to lose blacks and Latinos, because in the US, they have lower incomes, on average. Mexican immigrants rarely come to the US with money - rather, they come here to earn money, and blacks have only recently received all the opportunities that whites have had for centuries. The result is that they live in less affluent neighborhoods which consequently have lower property taxes, leaving the public schools underfunded and understaffed. The children receive a lower quality education and are less eligible for college admissions and college scholarships (not like they would be able to pay the soaring tuition anyways).

It has almost nothing to do with intelligence and motivation, and much more to do with a perpetual cycle of poverty. Add to that the fact that the US is shipping many of its entry-level jobs overseas, and you see the problem.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/CatsandCradles/p-admi-large.gif

Well, let me first say that I'm not entirely comfortable AA. I'm not entirely sure as to what the AAMC's stance on affirmative action as I am an osteopathic type.

However, when I look at many of the really poor and crime ridden areas around where our EMS service goes, I get the feeling that there has to be some sort of AA. Personally, I kind of wish it wasn't based on race or skin color, but on poverty.

Thus I kind of support an AA that is based on family income, but as for now at least we have something, rather than nothing.

Well, here's another AA picture. Enjoy.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/CatsandCradles/affirmative20action.gif

The above is sort of a good rebutall picture to those against AA. However, I would say that there are also plenty of poor white, asian, and indian folks that need a helping hand too.

AA should be based on common poverty and not on skin color, but at least it is something for the time being.

How much control over volunteering does a person have when:
1) she/he has to work ~12-20 hrs/wk, or even more.
2) needs to get out of school in 4 yrs because unlike other people, mommy and daddy are not paying for it; therefore, taking 12 hrs/semester is a laughable idea for them.
3) he/she does not have a car, money for taxi, etc. It's hard to find a ride, to find someone whose schedule matches yours, etc.
4) does not have a daddy MD to get him/her an intership at a hospital or clinic (as I know many people get them).


Lets see, I work 24 hours/wk (2 12 hour shifts) as an EMT, I just got done with a 18 unit quarter (my school has 10 week quarters. It must be nice at those schools where grades are based off of more then 2 tests), I volunteer 4 hours a week at a hospital plus put in 3-5 hours a week as a part of the leadership team (go me...). It can be done. Ohh, and my dad isn't a doctor. Neither is my mom. All it takes is a little research. Or listening to the annoucements in class or getting invloved with a pre-med club. The program I'm involved with I've heard about several times before I was even interested.

For everything else, there are loans. Most people don't just buy a car with cash. Most people don't just pay for school with cash. You aren't getting an education to be making minimum wage at the local fast food place.

[picture]

Well, let me first say that I'm not entirely comfortable AA. I'm not entirely sure as to what the AAMC's stance on affirmative action as I am an osteopathic type.

However, when I look at many of the really poor and crime ridden areas around where our EMS service goes, I get the feeling that there has to be some sort of AA. Personally, I kind of wish it wasn't based on race or skin color, but on poverty.

Thus I kind of support an AA that is based on family income, but as for now at least we have something, rather than nothing.

Well, here's another AA picture. Enjoy.


[picture]

The above is sort of a good rebutall picture to those against AA. However, I would say that there are also plenty of poor white, asian, and indian folks that need a helping hand too.

AA should be based on common poverty and not on skin color, but at least it is something for the time being.
A witty picture (saying) proves nothing. Education won't fix the the structual problems in these societies, such as gangs, lack of expectations, bad schools. How many rich minorities live in south central? Probably not very many. They want to get out of the poor places like that too.

Ohh, and my dad isn't a doctor. Neither is my mom. All it takes is a little research. Or listening to the annoucements in class or getting invloved with a pre-med club. The program I'm involved with I've heard about several times before I was even interested.
Where did you go to school? What kind of property taxes paid for your school?

A witty picture (saying) proves nothing. Education won't fix the the structual problems in these societies, such as gangs, lack of expectations, bad schools. How many rich minorities live in south central? Probably not very many. They want to get out of the poor places like that too.
Education won't solve their problems? :rolleyes: It's a CYCLE. People have low expectations because nobody can accomplish anything without an extremely strong will. When your mom's snorting crack, your sister's baby daddy is dealing off the back porch with some shady dudes, and your teacher barely graduated college and doesn't give a dang about your ability to read, only his next paycheck, just how do you expect someone to just "rise up and overcome"? That's great that you have a job as an EMT and pay for things on your own - I'm an EMT that pays for everything on my own too - but I'm grateful for the solid education I got and the stable neighborhood (and stable parents) that I grew up with.

this is the weirdest thing i've read all morning. and i've been reading the URM threads constantly bc they're so much fun.

Agree... although I've seen plenty of spelling error from 'dreamcrusher'

I dont think the question is whether or not a doctor of a different race will be capable of treating the patient well. I think that some individuals are a bit skeptical of other races and therefore physicans of those races. Being more comfortable with you doctor is incredibily important to establishing a strong doctor-patient relationship. I believe patients will be more comfortable in disclosing more of their health history and complying with doctor's orders (because of the trust they have developed in the relationship). In no way am I saying that an Indian doctor and a White patient are incapable of developing a strong and positive doctor-patient relationship, but I think that its more likely to occur when the patient feels more comfortable with that physican.

I was always wondering, how do people in other countries feel about organizations such as doctors without borders and with doctors from america coming and treating them and building clinics for them. Are they unwilling to be treated or being treated inaffectively becuase these doctors come from America and know absolutely nothing about their culture? Of course not, they take what they can get because they lack doctors, but in America apparently getting medical care is not good enough, your doctor has to know your culture too to treat you. I find this interesting. As long as a doctor shows sympathy and compassion to his/her patients, what does race/culture have to do with it??

I find this interesting. As long as a doctor shows sympathy and compassion to his/her patients, what does race/culture have to do with it??
Picture a doctor in your mind. Now, if someone walked into your room and looked radically different from that image, would you not be taken aback a little? This is even more the case if the patient is older. Many older people have deeply-rooted prejudices/preconceived notions, and would much rather have their doctor be, say, a 6' 50-year old white male with strong features. :laugh:

As for MSF and such, I think a lot of those people are just extremely grateful for the chance at medical care, but there are some who are suspicious of the "intruders."

Education won't solve their problems? :rolleyes: It's a CYCLE. People have low expectations because nobody can accomplish anything without an extremely strong will. When your mom's snorting crack, your sister's baby daddy is dealing off the back porch with some shady dudes, and your teacher barely graduated college and doesn't give a dang about your ability to read, only his next paycheck, just how do you expect someone to just "rise up and overcome"? That's great that you have a job as an EMT and pay for things on your own - I'm an EMT that pays for everything on my own too - but I'm grateful for the solid education I got and the stable neighborhood (and stable parents) that I grew up with.


Of course the opposite is that AA somehow fixes this. What is needed is a cultural/societal change. I took an intersting course my freshman year called "Why Some Countries Are Rich and Others Are Poor" based off of the book The Elusive Quest for Growth: Economists’ Adventures and Misadventures in the Tropics. You know what the one thing that seperated rich contries from poor countries every single time? Birthrate. Not education, resources, climate. Everything else had plenty of counter examples.

What needs to happen is a change in culture, American Culture. I'm not going to say that kids from poor neighborhoods start the same as everyone else. When your neighborhood is entertainment for everyone else, which local news in my area basically is, of course you're only going to see messages about murder and robbery and gang activity. What sort of message does it send, though, when the education system also tells you that you're going to get a boost because your situation. What sort of message does it send when even the college system doesn't expect them to achieve?


Finally, I find it interesting how no one has even commented on the study that shows that AA hurts URM law school students. So now these URMs (who people believe deserve to have the bar lowered for them) drop out of law school and have even more debt and are even futher behind.

Here is the link incase you missed it the first time around. http://chronicle.com/free/v51/i12/12a03501.htm

Where did you go to school? What kind of property taxes paid for your school?


UC Irvine.

Picture a doctor in your mind. Now, if someone walked into your room and looked radically different from that image, would you not be taken aback a little? This is even more the case if the patient is older. Many older people have deeply-rooted prejudices/preconceived notions, and would much rather have their doctor be, say, a 6' 50-year old white male with strong features. :laugh:

As for MSF and such, I think a lot of those people are just extremely grateful for the chance at medical care, but there are some who are suspicious of the "intruders."

Right, if you think there is a culture clash between a white doctors and a hispanic patient living in America, I shudder to think the culture clash between a American and say a poor native of a country within Africa. Also it is also rather comical when you can't understand a word your doctor is saying due to a thick accent. I know some indian doctors living in the US for 30+ who still have strong indian accents. Now that is rough.

As for MSF and such, I think a lot of those people are just extremely grateful for the chance at medical care, but there are some who are suspicious of the "intruders."
So the best way to fight racism (fear of the intruders) is with racism?

UC Irvine.
No - grade school/high school? What's the median income in that school district? (assuming you went to a public school?)

So the best way to fight racism (fear of the intruders) is with racism?
That's not what I said.

Right, if you think there is a culture clash between a white doctors and a hispanic patient living in America, I shudder to think the culture clash between a American and say a poor native of a country within Africa. Also it is also rather comical when you can't understand a word your doctor is saying due to a thick accent. I know some indian doctors living in the US for 30+ who still have strong indian accents. Now that is rough.

Of course there is no culture clash between a black doctor who has spent his entire life in the United States when he goes over to Africa for the first time.

You know what the one thing that seperated rich contries from poor countries every single time? Birthrate. Not education, resources, climate. Everything else had plenty of counter examples.
post hoc ergo procter hoc? In the US, poor people have more kids too. Birth rate follows wealth, not the other way around. Poor people (a. have to give birth more because their children are more likely to die without good medical care (b. have to have more children to take care of the farm.

What sort of message does it send when even the college system doesn't expect them to achieve?
Look, I'm in favor of providing a boost for poor white kids too, but your statement is ridiculous. THEY DIDN'T ACHIEVE. It's already done - if they had achieved, they wouldn't need help.

Finally, I find it interesting how no one has even commented on the study that shows that AA hurts URM law school students. So now these URMs (who people believe deserve to have the bar lowered for them) drop out of law school and have even more debt and are even futher behind.
That's why we need to catch them earlier, before we set them up for a big fall.

I was told by an asian (and have also read it a bunch on these forums) that it's too make their parents proud, and/or their parents pressure them into it.

it used to be that way, but these days, the (asian/indian) kids have more say in their career.

No - grade school/high school? What's the median income in that school district? (assuming you went to a public school?)
Fountain Valley High School, Fulton Middle School, and Tamura Elementry school if you truely need to know. All public schools. All in a nice middle class area.

Fountain Valley High School, Fulton Middle School, and Tamura Elementry school if you truely need to know. All public schools. All in a nice middle class area.
Then you're not making a fair comparison. Your teachers probably actually were at least slightly interested in seeing you succeed. Your parents probably provided an environment conducive to learning - they probably even told you to do your homework if you were falling behind. Poor students are already behind you at this point. Would I like to see a system that also helps poor white students? Of course.

ignore this post... troubles with firefox

Moving to the Topics in Healthcare forum for now.

Some reminders:

If want to discuss Affirmative Action, please take the discussion to the Everyone forum. If this thread turns into an Affirmative Action discussion, it will be moved to the Everyone forum.

We're not here to enforce opinions, but we do ask that you discuss these issues in a civil manner. If not, we'll have to close the thread.

Carry on...

That's not what I said.

Its implied. They fear the [ 6' 50-year old white male with strong features] doctor because he is an outsider. They fear him because of his apperance and race.

Its implied. They fear the [ 6' 50-year old white male with strong features] doctor because he is an outsider. They fear him because of his apperance and race.
Yah? And? I didn't say that the response should be a racist response, and you said that's what I said. Anyways, I'm about to stop responding, since I've got HW to do, and we've been pulled from my territory.

post hoc ergo procter hoc? In the US, poor people have more kids too. Birth rate follows wealth, not the other way around. Poor people (a. have to give birth more because their children are more likely to die without good medical care (b. have to have more children to take care of the farm.

Look, I'm in favor of providing a boost for poor white kids too, but your statement is ridiculous. THEY DIDN'T ACHIEVE. It's already done - if they had achieved, they wouldn't need help.


That's why we need to catch them earlier, before we set them up for a big fall.


Then you're not making a fair comparison. Your teachers probably actually were at least slightly interested in seeing you succeed. Your parents probably provided an environment conducive to learning - they probably even told you to do your homework if you were falling behind. Poor students are already behind you at this point. Would I like to see a system that also helps poor white students? Of course.
I agree, we need to catch them earlier. The solution is to fix the source. Poor inner-city schools. Fixing the problem at post secondary institutions is like trying to put the genie back into the bottle. Giving URMs advantage at medical school admissions is helping out at the wrong place and the wrong time and is going to benifit the URMs that don't deserve any extra help more then the average non-URM does.

Did it bother anyone else that "less" should have been "fewer" in the title? That kills me.

ooh good, i'm not the only grammar freak...everytime i see this thread, i say to myself, "LESS for intangible amounts, FEWER for things you can count" *sigh*

Some of y'all need to take an ethnic studies class and/or read some Tim Wise or Beverly Tatum (I highly recommend Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?).

im sure those classes and books are very objective

There are fewer because they're a minority? If there were ever more, then they'd be the majority and the minority would still have fewer?

yes but they wont rest until theyre exactly proportional with the population, and even then they will come up with a contrivance for more (25% to each major race, race proportional to the vicinity in which the school is located). it will never end

"im sure those classes and books are very objective"

Nothing is objective.
But don't knock it til you try it.

that may be true but classes meant to breed activism have more of an agenda than traditional ones. additionally, there should be a white studies class explicitly hailing white achievement to balance things out, but there isnt. thats more likely to be labeled "supremacy/nazi 101"

Shredder: there should be a white studies class explicitly hailing white achievement to balance things out

I think its called: American History and we all have to learn it.

I don't think an ethnic studies course will necesarily go out of its way to "hail ethnic achievements" and I dont think their purpose is to breed activism. Ethnic courses are informative and their purpose is to educate those who ("Ethnic" or "Non-ethnic")wish to become more knowledgeable about other cultures.

I think Sparkle was trying to suggest that learning about other ppl and their cultures will help in understanding their position and why they feel the way they do.

Kerry wasn't exactly the role model for good grades, either, so I hope you didn't vote for him either.

The point isnt about Kerry vs bush. Its about a white male caucasian(majority) who is a C student but just happens to be the President of the US of A.

A witty picture (saying) proves nothing. Education won't fix the the structual problems in these societies, such as gangs, lack of expectations, bad schools.

Thats completely the opposite. The very reason why they are poor is because of poor education or lack of it. Education WILL fix structural problems if not in the short term but definitely in the long term.

I was always wondering, how do people in other countries feel about organizations such as doctors without borders and with doctors from america coming and treating them and building clinics for them. Are they unwilling to be treated or being treated inaffectively becuase these doctors come from America and know absolutely nothing about their culture? Of course not, they take what they can get because they lack doctors, but in America apparently getting medical care is not good enough, your doctor has to know your culture too to treat you. I find this interesting. As long as a doctor shows sympathy and compassion to his/her patients, what does race/culture have to do with it??

Race/culture is part of who we are. To pretend that doctors are saints and perfect is naive (a notable example Tuskegee experiment). Imagine what the circumstances must have been like over 200 hundred year ago during slavery. The blacks then were not allowed to get an education. Do you think they got the best of care from the doctors (probably mostly causcasians) of the day when they got sick? Do you think this "sympathetic" and "compassionate" white doctor really gave 2 hoots about an individual whom society deemed sub-human? Do you think the establishment of Howard, Meharry and many other black institutions were just to play the race card? Gladly we are no longer living in those times but our race/culture hasn't changed. SO simply showing sympathy and compassion does not mean the patient has gotten quality care. Healing is much more complex than just some medical diagnosis, lab test or even surgery. The feeling of trust can add to a healing process. Thats where race/culture come in. The practice of medicine is not as cut and dry as just being altruistic that why schools stress on "well-roundedness". Anyway the point is it is not as simple as that.

Guys, you don't need to take sociology or ethinic studies classes to figure out that it's basically a cultural difference.

I am a non-URM minority who came to the U.S at 12 not knowing a single word of English. My parents made less than 20K a year all throughout middle school. I moved through 3 high schools with different ethnic compositions, being discriminated against at all of them. However, I went to an Ivy League college, did better on MCAT verbal than 98% of native english speakers, and is going to go to a top five medical school. I am not trying to generalize based on my personal experience, but there are tens of thousands of kids like me (of all races) who didn't have anything growing up and still made it because we tried.

THE POINT IS. How much obstacles you face is not as important as your motivation. It is all about what you WANT do to with your life. URM communities tend to have cultures that do not emphasize education - or sometimes hostile against education. How are you expected to think ahead to become a doctor when your high school classmates are all aspiring to be basketball players or rappers, and if you take an honors class you'll be hazed by your peers...

I think Affirmative Action is important to encourage URM to seek out professional careers, with hopes that they will help toward changing the self-perception and culture of URM communities. However, I don't know if doing this at the med school admissions stage is too late...

Maybe direct marketing to high school students may be more effective. Less of those Iverson Reebok commericals which glorify money, women, and cars (brainwashing kids to think that playing sprots is the way to get all the bling). Corporate America will try to get inner city kids to buy $150 sneakers beyond their means and to hope for glory beyond their reaches. What can we do... sadly that's what drives our economy...

Well if the groups overrepresented in medicine(such as asians and whites) start working in inner city areas, improving the health of African Americans, and being role models to African Americans so that they will have a model to improve themselves and overcome disparities, than fine get rid of AA.

I'm not weighing in for or against AA with this post, but I will note that a sad reality is that many if not most of the URMs do not end up practicing in an inner city area, or work to improve healthcare for minorities, etc. Whatsmore there is a problem in the communities perpetuated by the patients themselves who sometimes view white physicians as superior to their black counterparts...

How come only certain groups of minorities need special treatment? Why is it that Asians and Indians can be just as successful as whites without a helping hand? AA and URM status continue to lower the bar for certain groups of "special people" based solely on their skin color. If you can't compete than don't be a doctor and don't blame it on society.

Sorry, haven't read through the everything.

I have a quesiton. What do ya'll think about cultural bias? For instance, if my answer to this question was "Asian and Indian cultures promote hard work while other cultures do not," would you agree/disagree?

Sorry, haven't read through the everything.

I have a quesiton. What do ya'll think about cultural bias? For instance, if my answer to this question was "Asian and Indian cultures promote hard work while other cultures do not," would you agree/disagree?

I don't know about that, but I do understand that the history of Asians and Indians in this country is not the same as that of black Americans. The history of Africans is not the same as black Americans. There are a lot of different variables that factor into why things are the way they are. There is no way to have a completly fair way of rectifying the problem because it's too complex. It's terribly unfair to say that other cultures don't promote hard work. There are however some issues, but it can't be summed up like that.

How come only certain groups of minorities need special treatment? Why is it that Asians and Indians can be just as successful as whites without a helping hand? AA and URM status continue to lower the bar for certain groups of "special people" based solely on their skin color. If you can't compete than don't be a doctor and don't blame it on society.


There are many reasons why Asians are succesful in the united states. For example, Asians have the highest median household income of any of the broad race groups:

http://www.sces.org/lmi/data/trends/perCapita/income10.asp

This is a generalization b/c obviously there are poor Asians. This is only part of it, but to say that the bar is being lowered solely because of skin color for URMs shows an ingnorance about the underlying issues.

There are many reasons why Asians are succesful in the united states. For example, Asians have the highest median household income of any of the broad race groups:

http://www.sces.org/lmi/data/trends/perCapita/income10.asp

This is a generalization b/c obviously there are poor Asians. This is only part of it, but to say that the bar is being lowered solely because of skin color for URMs shows an ingnorance about the underlying issues.i recently discovered that supposedly jews are far and away the wealthiest "minority" group, but i guess they dont get credit due to skin color

There are many reasons why Asians are succesful in the united states. For example, Asians have the highest median household income of any of the broad race groups:

http://www.sces.org/lmi/data/trends/perCapita/income10.asp

This is a generalization b/c obviously there are poor Asians. This is only part of it, but to say that the bar is being lowered solely because of skin color for URMs shows an ingnorance about the underlying issues.

Today asians have a great median income; however, this is not always the case. Historically, immigrants are often rather poor. (If you doubt this, remember that one reason the conservatives in power right now like latin american immigration is that their average poverty makes them a fantastic source of cheap labor for buisness interests.) Perhaps we should be asking why have some asian populations become wildly successful, while others have remained poor. Asians-broadly construed--are an over-represented minority in medicine. This is not news. However, there are huge differences with respect to education achievment, representation in professions, etc. depending on which parts of Asia the original immigrants came from. What could account for their disparate levels of success? Values. Starting wealth & education.
The values and attitudes of the poor, undereducated whites in my city more closely resemble the values and attitudes of the poor, undereducated blacks in my city than they do the attitudes of the middle class and affluent whites. Similarly, the values of the affluent blacks in town most closely resemble the values of the affluent whites, and not the poorer blacks, despite shared skin color and relatively recent common history.

You want to know why Asians are overrepresented in medicine?

Think about the easiest way for immigrants to come to this country: graduate school. When there were shortages in science and medicine in the 60s-80s the U.S. was very willing to allow Asian immigrants to come to train and work. I have a good deal of Asian friends and would wager that over 90% of them have parents with graduate degrees in science or engineering. The U.S. is able to choose who they want to come into the country from Europe and Asia, so why not take the best and brightest? You can see how the story unfolds from here.

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, the thread is too long to check everything.

You want to know why Asians are overrepresented in medicine?

Think about the easiest way for immigrants to come to this country: graduate school. When there were shortages in science and medicine in the 60s-80s the U.S. was very willing to allow Asian immigrants to come to train and work. I have a good deal of Asian friends and would wager that over 90% of them have parents with graduate degrees in science or engineering. The U.S. is able to choose who they want to come into the country from Europe and Asia, so why not take the best and brightest? You can see how the story unfolds from here.

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, the thread is too long to check everything.

I'm not sure if its 90% but this is definitely a big part of it, i.e. which people from different populations get to the US and what they do when they are here (such as those pursuing graduate education for example). There is a similar skew when comparing South American Hispanics to American Hispanics, and Africans to African Americans.

Goodness! You'd think minorities were taking over in medical school classes the way some people rant. It's amazing, you all seem very vocal on a message board. Given the law of averages, you'd think I'd have met at least one of you once...Why don't you go up to one of the minorities in your premed/med class and have a heart-to-heart conversation to explain how you feel. You really need to get this off your chest. I'm sure they'd really be interested in knowing your opinions. :)

And sorry but poor white experience does not equal poor black/hispanic/native american experience. Similar perhaps, but not the same. But I do feel that poor whites should be judged favorably in the admissions process.

Just a thought to reflect on. Chris Rock is a comedian that some people find funny, not because he tells jokes, but because he makes observations that sometimes reflect truth. He said in one of his HBO specials:

There isn't a white man in this room that would change places with me. None of you. None of you would change places with me. And I'm rich!

Goodness! You'd think minorities were taking over in medical school classes the way some people rant. It's amazing, you all seem very vocal on a message board. Given the law of averages, you'd think I'd have met at least one of you once...Why don't you go up to one of the minorities in your premed/med class and have a heart-to-heart conversation to explain how you feel. You really need to get this off your chest. I'm sure they'd really be interested in knowing your opinions. :)

And sorry but poor white experience does not equal poor black/hispanic/native american experience. Similar perhaps, but not the same. But I do feel that poor whites should be judged favorably in the admissions process.

Just a thought to reflect on. Chris Rock is a comedian that some people find funny, not because he tells jokes, but because he makes observations that sometimes reflect truth. He said in one of his HBO specials:

OMG!! I've been thinking the same thing. After visiting this board I was under the impression that my whole med school class would be mostly black and hispanic. If this were not real life it would make a great comedy... :laugh:

Goodness! You'd think minorities were taking over in medical school classes the way some people rant. It's amazing, you all seem very vocal on a message board. Given the law of averages, you'd think I'd have met at least one of you once...Why don't you go up to one of the minorities in your premed/med class and have a heart-to-heart conversation to explain how you feel. You really need to get this off your chest. I'm sure they'd really be interested in knowing your opinions. :)

And sorry but poor white experience does not equal poor black/hispanic/native american experience. Similar perhaps, but not the same. But I do feel that poor whites should be judged favorably in the admissions process.

Just a thought to reflect on. Chris Rock is a comedian that some people find funny, not because he tells jokes, but because he makes observations that sometimes reflect truth. He said in one of his HBO specials:

So how is it that only minorities can *truly* understand the minority experience, but everyone can understand the poor white experience well enough to know that it does not equal the poor minority experience? I mean, frankly, I would agree, but only because nobody's experience is exactly the same (which is a definition of equal) as anyone else's.

I would trade to be Chris Rock. Are you kidding me?!

I would trade to be Chris Rock. Are you kidding me?!

I'm dam sure you're the ONLY white man in the universe that feels this way. :laugh:

PS-You wouldn't happen to have the sickle cell trait would ya? :laugh:

Sorry off topic, but out of all the topics in healthcare, why do we always start with minorities. What about obesity in the US or other problems? We are beating a dead horse. Some of the comments are shocking....to know that some day you guys will be my colleagues. I'm glad that some of are you are pre-meds. Since some of you are so upset about URMs, you need to apply to Idaho or Vermont. I'm just wondering what will happen to you if you happen to go on rotations at a less desirable site. Most of the teaching hospitals are in urban communities...have a discussion with them about URMs in medicine and AA.

Sorry off topic, but out of all the topics in healthcare, why do we always start with minorities. What about obesity in the US or other problems? We are beating a dead horse. Some of the comments are shocking....to know that some day you guys will be my colleagues. I'm glad that some of are you are pre-meds. Since some of you are so upset about URMs, you need to apply to Idaho or Vermont. I'm just wondering what will happen to you if you happen to go on rotations at a less desirable site. Most of the teaching hospitals are in urban communities...have a discussion with them about URMs in medicine and AA.

You think this is interesting, you should've read the post on "medical ebonics", or whatever. Whole topic was about how some other less educated mispronounce medical terms, name their children and etc. I'm sure some folks didn't have ill will when commenting, but still..... Aside from lack of funds, it's no wonder some segments of our society don't seek healthcare. If someone will make fun of you, there's no telling what else they might do.

Medical Ebonics (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=243309)

I too thought this thread, although occassionally amusing, was ultimately in poor taste. Especially more so, when it seemed that most of the patients they made fun of were likely black. People in the EM forum found it so popular, they made it a sticky .

Some patients may not be very educated, but they are very perceptive. And if they feel that their health care provider looks down on them or makes them feel inferior, it negatively affects the whole doctor-patient relationship. I've had many patients tell me that they've felt this before. It was comforting to them(whether they were right or not because they haven't met me) that I was less likely to give off that same vibe. Hopefully, every physician(minority or otherwise) has that same talent. Unfortunately, sometimes great grades and great bedside manner are mutually exclusive. It's then up to the Adcom committees to correctly figure this out. I've seen them make homeruns, and I've seen them strike out miserably.

Maybe I should look at those socially enept