http://tampatrib.com/floridametronews/MGB5LI0GRGE.html

This is such BS. These universities think they can open up these foreign med schools, attach an "american university" label on it, and their graduates get free entry into american licensure?

This is a joke. If you operate a foreign med school, then your graduates are FOREIGNERS, NOT AMERICAN MEDICAL STUDENTS AND THEY SHOULD NOT QUALIFY FOR AMERICAN LICENSURE. They should be required to go thru the same FMG steps that everybody else from foreign med schools have to go through.

first we have Cornell and their pet project in Qatar. Then harvard joins in with another middle eastern cesspool, and now we have USF going to India.

I'm sick and tired of these back door attempts to get a free shot at american medical licensing. These are not american students, they should be in the same group as the rest of the FMGs.

Hey MacGyver, tell us how you REALLY feel ;)... after reading that little article, the question I have, is this set up for a US school to provide docs and nurses for india or for indian docs and nurses to be able to work in the US.

interesting...

this will continue as long as we allow it..it is all about making $$$

this is good for free markets. licensure is a form of protectionism. patients can decide which docs they want to see. it may hurt american docs but its better for everyone else. as long as there is a "doc shortage" and "rising costs" i expect this type of thing to become increasingly common

I think graduates from Cornell in Quatar has to go through FMG process.

Q – As a graduate of WCMC-Q, how may I obtain a license to practice medicine in the United States?
A – Students and graduates of the Weill Cornell Medical College in Qatar will be eligible to undergo the United States Medical Licensing Examination ( USMLE ) under the rules established by the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates ( ECFMG ). The USMLE is the sole examination system for United States medical students and graduates as well as for international medical graduates seeking medical licensure in the United States.

http://www.qatar-med.cornell.edu/admissions/med_faqs.html?name1=Requirements+for+Medical+Progr am&type1=2Select&name2=FAQ‘s&type2=3Active

this is good for free markets. licensure is a form of protectionism. patients can decide which docs they want to see. it may hurt american docs but its better for everyone else. as long as there is a "doc shortage" and "rising costs" i expect this type of thing to become increasingly common

1) Doctors incomes as a whole have been flat/declining since the mid 1980s. The rise in healthcare costs from mid 1980s onward therefore has nothign to do with doctor salaries.

2) US has one of the highest doctor/patient ratios in the world. There is no such thing as a doctor shortage in america

2) US has one of the highest doctor/patient ratios in the world. There is no such thing as a doctor shortage in america

That's not true. While medical centers in cities have a HUGE proportion of docs, there are still many areas that remain "underserved" (rural and inner city), hence the justification for so many debt-repayment progs. if you work in those areas.

2) US has one of the highest doctor/patient ratios in the world. There is no such thing as a doctor shortage in america

If this is the case, why did AAMC decide to increase the enrollment of medical schools. Have you read the article before?

http://tampatrib.com/floridametronews/MGB5LI0GRGE.html

This is such BS. These universities think they can open up these foreign med schools, attach an "american university" label on it, and their graduates get free entry into american licensure?

This is a joke. If you operate a foreign med school, then your graduates are FOREIGNERS, NOT AMERICAN MEDICAL STUDENTS AND THEY SHOULD NOT QUALIFY FOR AMERICAN LICENSURE. They should be required to go thru the same FMG steps that everybody else from foreign med schools have to go through.

first we have Cornell and their pet project in Qatar. Then harvard joins in with another middle eastern cesspool, and now we have USF going to India.

I'm sick and tired of these back door attempts to get a free shot at american medical licensing. These are not american students, they should be in the same group as the rest of the FMGs.

Are students of the Cornell Qatar, harvard (where?), and USF programs considered FMGs or are they still considered US grads since the school has US connections?

My friend says that Columbia has a similar program in Isreal. His best friend goes there, and he claims that he will graduate as an American grad, not an FMG. Is this true?

Are students of the Cornell Qatar, harvard (where?), and USF programs considered FMGs or are they still considered US grads since the school has US connections?

My friend says that Columbia has a similar program in Isreal. His best friend goes there, and he claims that he will graduate as an American grad, not an FMG. Is this true?

Take a look at my post above. It seems the Cornell Qatar program grads are considered FMG. I copied that info from their web site.

Education is one the most important vehicles for the advancement of humanity. America has the best graduate university system in the world. It has a moral duty to forward the scientific education, & thus welfare, of the third world.

The OP complains that the these expansions are BS because they supposedly are motivated by profits. Even if they are financially motivated, (which is not clear) that is not necassarily bad. A lot of great things are based on the profit motive. What is morally questionable is limiting the flow of medical education, & limiting the world's ability to fight disease, so as to protect one's income.

RE: The argument that these are not American Universities is seems kind of narrow minded. There seems to fair labeling. The education is about the curriculum, faculty, & organization, not the geography. It is Cornell's, Harvard's, & USF's decision if they want to bestow their names on this education.

Yea the Cornell Quatar program has really high gpa and mcat avgs. The website said that they had an avg gpa of 3.69 and mcat score of 11. Seems like that is better than most US medical schools? Is this true or were there statements misleading? Are they talking about the original Cornell med school?

Hurray Lindihopper!
thats the sort of people we need to bridge the "america" and "rest of the world" gap.Yes..US is at the forefront and has some of the best programs for the upliftment n empowerment of those who weren't fortunate enough to be born in the "land of innovation n technical advancemnet".

MacGyuver,
Does geography matter so much..As a doctor from a developing country , I can tell u that when students,volunteers n doctors from US come down for internships,observorships etc we welcome them , host them the best possible way we can.And very honestly its more of a learning experience for them than anything else.Not knowing the languages spoken by the underserevd communities here..they can hardly take part in the actual health care or education process.
Ofcourse, after their first visit...good number of them carry home valuable perspective with them and very often return with concrete plans to help.
The point however is..we dont deny them their learning opportunity nor do we treat them like "outsiders".
Different parts of the world have different resources.Whats wrong with extending them to each other[even if they r financially motivated, the point is..they are motivated! ]
And how exactly are these "backdoor" attempts? If the students in weill cornell have to slog to get into medschool just like the rest of us..and if they have to clear the same USMLE steps..then what sets them beneath u??Geography?Race? Dont tell me!
Grow up..there's enough for everyone out there.
No one was complaining when US outsourced "customer support" to India and saved big bucks in the process, nor when microsoft employs practically all the best engineers of India!!

I don't see what the big deal is , good for those students who get accepted into those types of programs. I'm happy there will be more doctors out there, they still have to pass the USMLE to become a doctor so whats the big deal.

I don't see what the big deal is , good for those students who get accepted into those types of programs. I'm happy there will be more doctors out there, they still have to pass the USMLE to become a doctor so whats the big deal.

People are bitter seeing other people happy. A lot of these people going to carribean and foreign schools were the people who had fun in college and had real lives. Now that they are going to still be able to go to med school and still become fully competent doctors many of their nerdy counterparts are bitter. :thumbdown

Given the proverbial laziness and scientific incompetence of American students, an infusion of studious foreigners can only improve the profession.



Listen, you brain-dead three-toothed redneck bigot punk. You can take your "middle eastern cesspool" and shove it up your Cletus-reamed ass. You want to sing "America the Beatiful" while ****ting on middle easterners, the infantry is hiring. We don't need you and your lone brain cell in medicine -- the rattling sound coming from your skull distracts us.

Clearly, you have the moral high-ground here... :rolleyes: Way to fight stereotypes with stereotypes, there champ. :thumbup:

Hurray Lindihopper!
thats the sort of people we need to bridge the "america" and "rest of the world" gap.Yes..US is at the forefront and has some of the best programs for the upliftment n empowerment of those who weren't fortunate enough to be born in the "land of innovation n technical advancemnet".

MacGyuver,
Does geography matter so much..As a doctor from a developing country , I can tell u that when students,volunteers n doctors from US come down for internships,observorships etc we welcome them , host them the best possible way we can.And very honestly its more of a learning experience for them than anything else.Not knowing the languages spoken by the underserevd communities here..they can hardly take part in the actual health care or education process.
Ofcourse, after their first visit...good number of them carry home valuable perspective with them and very often return with concrete plans to help.
The point however is..we dont deny them their learning opportunity nor do we treat them like "outsiders".
Different parts of the world have different resources.Whats wrong with extending them to each other[even if they r financially motivated, the point is..they are motivated! ]
And how exactly are these "backdoor" attempts? If the students in weill cornell have to slog to get into medschool just like the rest of us..and if they have to clear the same USMLE steps..then what sets them beneath u??Geography?Race? Dont tell me!
Grow up..there's enough for everyone out there.
No one was complaining when US outsourced "customer support" to India and saved big bucks in the process, nor when microsoft employs practically all the best engineers of India!!

:thumbup:

Given the proverbial laziness and scientific incompetence of American students, an infusion of studious foreigners can only improve the profession.



Listen, you brain-dead three-toothed redneck bigot punk. You can take your "middle eastern cesspool" and shove it up your Cletus-reamed ass. You want to sing "America the Beatiful" while ****ting on middle easterners, the infantry is hiring. We don't need you and your lone brain cell in medicine -- the rattling sound coming from your skull distracts us.
You can state your arguments much more effectively by avoiding personal attacks. You do yourself a disservice by stooping to this level.

Language of this nature is not acceptable on SDN. Consider this your warning.

That's not true. While medical centers in cities have a HUGE proportion of docs, there are still many areas that remain "underserved" (rural and inner city), hence the justification for so many debt-repayment progs. if you work in those areas.

Read my post again. The aggregate national average for teh US is very high relative to other nations. So what if there are underserved rural areas, that has nothing to do with overall doctor supply. Its a distribution problem, not a supply problem. Ergo, there is no national shortage.

Pumping out more doctors will NOT solve that problem. Just because you have more docs does not mean they will migrate towards the underserved rural areas. We've seen that time and time again, yet the idiot politicians arent paying attention and foolishly assume that more med schools = more rural doctors when in fact thats patently false.

Also, those "underserved rural areas" ignore the contributions of NPs and PAs. You do know that NPs and PAs run their own rural ERs and clinics with virtually zero doctor oversight dont you? Yet none of the rural analyses includes that impact. They assume that if a rural county has zero doctors, that nobody in that county is getting healthcare, when in fact they all go see thier local PA or NP.

I ve never seen a PA or NP practicing completely solo. Usually they are in supervision of a doctor. Especially in an ER clinic? Do you mean urgent care clinic?

I ve never seen a PA or NP practicing completely solo. Usually they are in supervision of a doctor. Especially in an ER clinic? Do you mean urgent care clinic?

I'm talking about rural ERs, urgent care clinics, solo offices, everything.

The state regulations are incredibly weak. "supervision" by a physician means nothing more than a telephone review of 5% of all patient records EVERY 6 MONTHS with no personal visit by the doctor.

PAs and NPs effectively run their own clinics. The oversight supervision rules are a joke.

There is a predicted shortage, not just of rural Drs, of ~200,000 Drs by 2025.

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/141/9/705

First of all USF is a reputable allopathic medical school in Florida, not a diploma mill. The graduates of these progams will not recieve US licensure, it is primarily being founded to provide Inda with qualified health practitioners.

Also the program is at the request of one of USF's largest donors, Kiran Patel, who is from India and Im assuming will also be funding a majority of this program. This is not another way for them to make money.

I'm talking about rural ERs, urgent care clinics, solo offices, everything.

The state regulations are incredibly weak. "supervision" by a physician means nothing more than a telephone review of 5% of all patient records EVERY 6 MONTHS with no personal visit by the doctor.

PAs and NPs effectively run their own clinics. The oversight supervision rules are a joke.

alas it's true...they are letting those pa's run rampant...why just the other day I worked a 16 hr shift with no doc on in the er...wait, that's my regular job.....
there are pa's running solo er's and icu's. there are pa's doing cardiac caths. I work in a small dept where I am the only provider so I see whatever comes in the door from mi's to trauma, etc
sample job posting from national recruiter:

SOUTHWEST GEORGIA RURAL ER!

Rural Southwest Georgia Hospital has IMMEDIATE opening for Physician Assistant in the emergency room. Join team of two other PAs in sharing coverage duties. Must have at least three years experience in an emergency room and be capable of independent practice. acls/atls/pals required. Solo position requires comfort with a full range of medical and trauma patients.
Great quality of life in rural, agricultural based community with easy access to larger cities. Excellent hospital system with long history of physician assistant utilization. Salary $75-90K to start with bonus structure. exceptional cafeteria-style benefit package including paid CME, professional memberships, licensure, malpractice insurance, retirement and relocation!

recent article from duke medical school on their website:

The Rise of Midlevel Providers
author : Medical Center News Office , (919) 684-4148
dukemednews@contact.duke.edu
date : Summer 2002
editor's note : by Lloyd Michener, MD; Chairman, Department of Community and Family Medicine

The last time you went to the "doctor's office," who treated you? Increasingly, people who are asked that question may not picture the traditional family doctor, but a caregiver who doesn't have a medical degree--a nurse practitioner (NP) or physician assistant (PA). Around the country, patients are being anesthetized by nurse anesthetists instead of anesthesiologists, having babies delivered by nurse midwives instead of obstetricians or family physicians, even having cardiac catheterizations performed by physician assistants instead of cardiologists. And while most of these caregivers practice with physician supervision, a growing number of states are granting some the right to practice independently.

As the lines between PAs, NPs, and MDs blur, some physicians worry that non-physician clinicians are encroaching on their scope of practice--to the possible detriment of patient care. But evidence is growing that it is time to rethink traditional provider roles. Health care may be facing both a shortage of physicians and an explosion of medical knowledge, challenges that we cannot adequately meet using physicians alone. Instead, we will best serve patients by looking for new ways to use the skills of non-traditional clinicians, and working with them in teams to meet the need for high-quality, affordable care.....

there is more but I think you get the idea

First of all USF is a reputable allopathic medical school in Florida, not a diploma mill. The graduates of these progams will not recieve US licensure, it is primarily being founded to provide Inda with qualified health practitioners.

Also the program is at the request of one of USF's largest donors, Kiran Patel, who is from India and Im assuming will also be funding a majority of this program. This is not another way for them to make money.


How will this provide India with doctors? I thought this was a carribean style program for US kids?

http://tampatrib.com/floridametronews/MGB5LI0GRGE.html

This is such BS. These universities think they can open up these foreign med schools, attach an "american university" label on it, and their graduates get free entry into american licensure?

This is a joke. If you operate a foreign med school, then your graduates are FOREIGNERS, NOT AMERICAN MEDICAL STUDENTS AND THEY SHOULD NOT QUALIFY FOR AMERICAN LICENSURE. They should be required to go thru the same FMG steps that everybody else from foreign med schools have to go through.

first we have Cornell and their pet project in Qatar. Then harvard joins in with another middle eastern cesspool, and now we have USF going to India.

I'm sick and tired of these back door attempts to get a free shot at american medical licensing. These are not american students, they should be in the same group as the rest of the FMGs.

someone posted that as stated on the websites for the schools (at least for cornell, i'm assuming for the rest as well) - these foreign med grads are considered to be fmg's and not american grads so what's ur problem? Americans who go to the carribean schools should be considered fmgs but they're not (are they? i might be wrong on this). ur over reacting.

How will this provide India with doctors? I thought this was a carribean style program for US kids?

Thats where u guys are all wrong.....No where in the article did it say anything about this. The school is a state school, not a private school looking for money.

someone posted that as stated on the websites for the schools (at least for cornell, i'm assuming for the rest as well) - these foreign med grads are considered to be fmg's and not american grads so what's ur problem? Americans who go to the carribean schools should be considered fmgs but they're not (are they? i might be wrong on this). ur over reacting.


carribean grads are considered fmgs

Thats where u guys are all wrong.....No where in the article did it say anything about this. The school is a state school, not a private school looking for money.

So why are they starting this program?

How does it provide doctors for India?

So why are they starting this program?

How does it provide doctors for India?

1. To train medical professionals in India
2. Ummmmmm......Its a med school and Nursing school in India, thats how it provides doctors for india.

USF already has programs that train the Citizens of India as healthcare professionals. These programs will not even be open to US grads, unless of course they plan to stay in India. Like the article said the programs are being considered to complement the hospitals that have already been opened with the funds of one of USF's largest donor.

2) US has one of the highest doctor/patient ratios in the world. There is no such thing as a doctor shortage in america

take the blinders off (nothing offensive..hope you're not sensitive)....doctor shortage in america isn't about ratios it's about shortage of doctors that actually see the patients in a rural area....ya of course we have the highest ratio, but that doesn't mean we have don't ahve a shortage....there are plenty of physicians in the city but can they access the patient that makes up their ratio if the patient lives in 50 miles away in a rural area... the point is there are physicians for patients...but the physicians are all in teh same area, (suburbia, metro, lesss in rural areas!)

Basically the OP is talking form the standpoint of greed. All worried about more docs driving down salaries, a supply/demand thing. We aren't talking about GM line-workers here buddy. If you're the least bit compassionate you realize the need for more healthcare workers at every level.

It doesn't matter what the dr to patient ratios are here in the states. Saying they are "good" is a relative thing. They may be "good" compared to the rest of the world but that's it. Fact is, even if you flooded the U.S. market with docs how is that a bad thing? If it drives the salary down then maybe jobs overseas start looking more competitive or AT LEAST not as bad and you end up with a better distribution of healthcare throughout the world. This world has a global economy and that's NOT going to change other than for globalization to increase as means of transportation improve.

What this world REALLY needs is a global governing body for medicine. If we had uniform standards then we could clear hurdles for working ANYWHERE.

1. To train medical professionals in India
2. Ummmmmm......Its a med school and Nursing school in India, thats how it provides doctors for india.

USF already has programs that train the Citizens of India as healthcare professionals. These programs will not even be open to US grads, unless of course they plan to stay in India. Like the article said the programs are being considered to complement the hospitals that have already been opened with the funds of one of USF's largest donor.


Doesnt India produce enough of its own doctors? Many of them immigrate to the US already.

Doesnt India produce enough of its own doctors? Many of them immigrate to the US already.

Not nearly enough to cover the really big population (> 1 billion people)

RE: The argument that these are not American Universities is seems kind of narrow minded. There seems to fair labeling. The education is about the curriculum, faculty, & organization, not the geography. It is Cornell's, Harvard's, & USF's decision if they want to bestow their names on this education.

You can add Duke to the list. I believe they are opening a medical school next year in conjunction with the National University of Singapore.

Cheers.

Yea the Cornell Quatar program has really high gpa and mcat avgs. The website said that they had an avg gpa of 3.69 and mcat score of 11. Seems like that is better than most US medical schools? Is this true or were there statements misleading? Are they talking about the original Cornell med school?
Interestingly, some of you seem to see this as American schools lowering their standards but somehow positioning themselves as the lucky country's new "Harvard". But if the new Indian school were to adopt admissions standards comparable to the above American stats, this would be quite a bit less demanding than what is required to get into AIIMS, in New Delhi. I suspect an American satellite campus would be wealthier and have better facilities. But the wealth of a country's universities isn't always as closely related to academic standards as it seems to be in the US. India has med schools that are wealthier and better equipped than AIIMS but which are also known to have clearly lower standards both for admissions and level of instruction.

As for any joint project between Duke and the National University of Singapore, you might want to consider the Times 2005 ranking of the top 100 universities for Biomedicine: NUS ranks 15th...Duke, 23rd.

A few years back, a physician surpluss was predicted. Many residency programs reduced their sizes or shut down. Many medical schools reduced their class sizes. It turned out that whoever made the prediction was wrong, because they failed to take into account something very important-the changing demographics of the physician work force, namely the relative increase in female physicians. Females now make up about 50% of new doctors. Many female physicians would like to work part-time, or be limited to a 40 hour work week. Even males are now less willing to work the 80-90 hours a week that doctors used to work in the past and would rather take a paycut and work only 40-50 hours a week. Pretty much all areas of medicine are becoming more "lifestyle friendly." Although the number of doctors has risen to the level of what they predicted when the surpluss was predicted, because physicians are not willing to work as many hours as they had in the past, there is a shortage. Currently, that shortage is being filled with FMGs. Right now med schools across the country have begun to increase their class sizes, so that in about 5 years or so there won't be such a deficit of AMGs.l

this is good for free markets. licensure is a form of protectionism. patients can decide which docs they want to see. it may hurt american docs but its better for everyone else. as long as there is a "doc shortage" and "rising costs" i expect this type of thing to become increasingly common

Of course if you increase supply of docs their costs go down...but realize that doc salaries make a slim margin of total health care costs, just like nursing salaries do.

How bout this!! How about to truly be free market, we ignore all patent protection and let whoever clone Ipods, download free music, rip car designs and fabricate Rx drugs!! Insane you say? Why would Americans bother to invent stuff in such a climate?! Same thing with docs, when you allow mass influx of IMGs and thus salaries slightly dip, solid American prospects will go way down. You think depending on foriegn sources of oil is bad?? How about Al Qaeda as your kids' Pediatrician??

I think shot is from the area where USF is gunning to open up an "American" medical school.
http://www.elconfidencial.com/fotos/internacional/2006011738antieeuu_20060115_o.jpg

I have one word: DEPORTATION. that is my word of the day.

Of course if you increase supply of docs their costs go down...but realize that doc salaries make a slim margin of total health care costs, just like nursing salaries do.

How bout this!! How about to truly be free market, we ignore all patent protection and let whoever clone Ipods, download free music, rip car designs and fabricate Rx drugs!! Insane you say? Why would Americans bother to invent stuff in such a climate?! Same thing with docs, when you allow mass influx of IMGs and thus salaries slightly dip, solid American prospects will go way down. You think depending on foriegn sources of oil is bad?? How about Al Qaeda as your kids' Pediatrician??

I think shot is from the area where USF is gunning to open up an "American" medical school.

I have one word: DEPORTATION. that is my word of the day.


I can't believe that future doctors are capable of such hate.

Why do American schools open these foreign charter schools? Is it to make profit like the other off shore schools?

Why do American schools open these foreign charter schools? . .
That's what universities do. They teach. They spread knowledge.

That's what universities do. They teach. They spread knowledge.

Cornell for example i think they opened a med school in Dubai and its primarily marketed/directed towards american kids who plan to practice in america. So if they are soley out to spread knowledge why not just open up those extra seats in your own med school?

= It would be difficult to add about 200 students a year (or whatever the number is) to your class, and it would bring down your avg stats. Those 200 students would generate a lot of cash though that you could spend on varies classes, hospitals, clinics, research.......etc.

Cornell for example i think they opened a med school in Dubai and its primarily marketed/directed towards american kids who plan to practice in america. So if they are soley out to spread knowledge why not just open up those extra seats in your own med school?

= It would be difficult to add about 200 students a year (or whatever the number is) to your class, and it would bring down your avg stats. Those 200 students would generate a lot of cash though that you could spend on varies classes, hospitals, clinics, research.......etc.

It's Cornell Medical in Qatar, not Dubai. The medical school is for the local Qataris and regional students, primarily, not Americans.

Almost every one I have talked to that has had medical attention complains that every time they go to the hospital, they cannot prounce their doctor's name. Call this rascist all you want, I don't really care. Culturally, to provide the best care, we need to educate Americans, raised with an American culture to treat patients. This is what people want. More effort should be made to build new schools in america. Thousands of qualified americans get turned down from medical schools every year due to the seat shortage.

Im not opposed to private schools using their funds to educate students over seas if those students want to remain over seas, but I think it is wrong to educate foreigners for the purpose of bringing them to america when so many americans desire and need the education.

Almost every one I have talked to that has had medical attention complains that every time they go to the hospital, they cannot prounce their doctor's name. Call this rascist all you want, I don't really care. Culturally, to provide the best care, we need to educate Americans, raised with an American culture to treat patients. This is what people want. More effort should be made to build new schools in america. Thousands of qualified americans get turned down from medical schools every year due to the seat shortage.

Im not opposed to private schools using their funds to educate students over seas if those students want to remain over seas, but I think it is wrong to educate foreigners for the purpose of bringing them to america when so many americans desire and need the education.

Racist

maybe the patients need to change.

Racist

maybe the patients need to change.

Earth to Berkeley poster: Maybe doctors should be able to communicate effectively with the people they are supposed to administer to. Also, medicine is a free market, people have the option to take their $$$ to people they relate to and feel comfortable opening up to.

We cant all be good little Communists like you , singing campfire songs at the IHouse with all the people that want to destroy evil capitalism.

But I dont blame you, you are in an environment of the pure political correctness and quite naive. Dont worry little guy, the wide wide world outside of Cal isnt as scary as they say.

right on LAdoc, I couldn't agree more. And to NRA I would like to point out that the patients I talked about earlier are from all different kinds of ethnic/american backgrounds. But I guess that is racist for wanting a doctor they are comfortable with. I mean, they are shelling out thousands for care, but a doctor they can understand, no one deserves that. I mean they should worry about some foreign doctors feelings before there own health, cuz that is what america is about, right?

There is open-minded, and then there is being so open-minded that your brain falls out, i think you fall into the latter.

Earth to Berkeley poster: Maybe doctors should be able to communicate effectively with the people they are supposed to administer to. Also, medicine is a free market, people have the option to take their $$$ to people they relate to and feel comfortable opening up to.

We cant all be good little Communists like you , singing campfire songs at the IHouse with all the people that want to destroy evil capitalism.

But I dont blame you, you are in an environment of the pure political correctness and quite naive. Dont worry little guy, the wide wide world outside of Cal isnt as scary as they say.

If its a free market then there should be no problems. Patients would go to docs they feel more comfortable with and the other docs would be out of business.

I think you have a very distorted view of what berkeley is like, its not the 70s in berkeley anymore.

right on LAdoc, I couldn't agree more. And to NRA I would like to point out that the patients I talked about earlier are from all different kinds of ethnic/american backgrounds. But I guess that is racist for wanting a doctor they are comfortable with. I mean, they are shelling out thousands for care, but a doctor they can understand, no one deserves that. I mean they should worry about some foreign doctors feelings before there own health, cuz that is what america is about, right?

There is open-minded, and then there is being so open-minded that your brain falls out, i think you fall into the latter.

:laugh: I m glad to know that we ve must have met at some point...bc you making comments like you know me would be completely retarded if we hadnt ever met before. :laugh:

Cornell for example i think they opened a med school in Dubai and its primarily marketed/directed towards american kids who plan to practice in america. So if they are soley out to spread knowledge why not just open up those extra seats in your own med school?

Unfortunately you are sadly misinformed. It's in Qatar, as someone else pointed out.

Weill in Qatar was designed for pumping more doctors into Qatar, not for Americans who couldn't cut it to an American school. It isn't "yet another Caribbean". I actually got a job as a premed TA there, but turned it down. It's a great program and no wonder the entrance stats are high. I was told that graduates would have no problems getting residencies at Cornell's New York Presbyterian or associated hospitals. It's about spreading knowledge around the world. Doctors are needed everywhere, and an oil-rich country like Qatar can afford to establish a medical school under the aegis of a prestigious American school.

Unfortunately you are sadly misinformed. It's in Qatar, as someone else pointed out.

Weill in Qatar was designed for pumping more doctors into Qatar, not for Americans who couldn't cut it to an American school. It isn't "yet another Caribbean". I actually got a job as a premed TA there, but turned it down. It's a great program and no wonder the entrance stats are high. I was told that graduates would have no problems getting residencies at Cornell's New York Presbyterian or associated hospitals. It's about spreading knowledge around the world. Doctors are needed everywhere, and an oil-rich country like Qatar can afford to establish a medical school under the aegis of a prestigious American school.

Yea maybe i was misinformed. My friend was interested in the program and he described it to me as a Carribean style program.

But there are many other countries who do have carribean style programs: UK, Ireland, Australia, Poland, India, South America.......etc

This is only showing some people's bigotry towards the whole issue- Firstly, no doctor is going to be granted licensure without USMLE.

Secondly, I think the world has reached a point where countries need each other for different issues- so if foreign doctors come to the states, american companies have huge markets in Asia- so is it fair to say we shd all retract back to our original countries and stop all forms of international exchange.

Biologically its survival of the fittest- so fight it out without cribbing!

This is only showing some people's bigotry towards the whole issue- Firstly, no doctor is going to be granted licensure without USMLE.

Secondly, I think the world has reached a point where countries need each other for different issues- so if foreign doctors come to the states, american companies have huge markets in Asia- so is it fair to say we shd all retract back to our original countries and stop all forms of international exchange.

Biologically its survival of the fittest- so fight it out without cribbing!

Ah,

With this thread it may have been better to let sleeping dogs lie.

If its a free market then there should be no problems. Patients would go to docs they feel more comfortable with and the other docs would be out of business.

I think you have a very distorted view of what berkeley is like, its not the 70s in berkeley anymore.


Sure seems like berkeley is stuck in the 70s from when I visited last year...Walking all up and down their main street all I saw was hippies, all I could smell was burned incense, all they really had to sell were hemp-based products and retro paraphenalia.

Maybe berkeley isn't completely unchanged from the 70s, but it seems to me like a lot more has changed everywhere else but berkeley since then.

Medical schools in Qatar, India or wherever else mentioned in the article are not LCME schools, no matter who actually owns them. LCME includes Canada, PR, and the 125-ish MD schools here as well as the DO schools. That's it. EVERYBODY else is an FMG, and has to go through hell to land an American residency. And trying to actually practice here without an American residency? Forget about it.

Even if they went to friggin' Oxford, graduated first in their MBBS class, and are 10 years post-residency, they have to jump though all these hoops to practice here. So, don't worry, MacGuyver, your job is safe.

Now one reason we have these restrictions on FMGs is because other countries do the same thing. An American trying to practice in Britain has to go through similar hell. It would be nice to see a NAFTA-style arrangement between all industrial countries with reputable medical schools to do away with some of these artificial barriers...

Listen, you brain-dead three-toothed redneck bigot punk. You can take your "middle eastern cesspool" and shove it up your Cletus-reamed ass. You want to sing "America the Beatiful" while ****ting on middle easterners, the infantry is hiring. We don't need you and your lone brain cell in medicine -- the rattling sound coming from your skull distracts us.



I rise in support of my good friend MacGyver. "Cesspool" is a fairly accurate description of much of the Middle East, a region in which I did actually spend a little time as an infantryman.

Why are you busting down on the infantry? It is a difficult job that requires skill, courage, discipline, and the kind of selflessness that is in short supply in most other professions. I'd take 100 Marine infantryman over 100 of the typical *******s for which medical schools seem to select.

I want you to announce, in a loud voice, your antipathy to our fighting men and see how many of your attendings were ex-Marines, soldiers, or Navy corpsmen.

I can't believe that future doctors are capable of such hate.

Medicine is not a cult. I'm an American first, not a physician. I'd have no problem deporting some of the more venemous imported doctors and medical students I have encountered.

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism blah blah blah." The old-fashioned kind of patriotism aint bad either.

THis thread is retarded........someone please shut it down.

Ah,

With this thread it may have been better to let sleeping dogs lie.
Can't say it better myself. While a few things were overlooked for moderation this thread is old and was bumped. Either continue with a rational and professional discussion on the original topic or this thread WILL be closed.

Thanks! :)

Shut her down.

Within 10 years, a large percentage of the North American population will be over 65. This, in itself, will place hugh demands on our healthcare system and resources....not to mention the cost factor. The question is, where will the money come from?
Perhaps we should be thinking of ways to promote lifestyle changes through wellness programs which will help decrease the demand for healthcare resources in the future.

Within 10 years, a large percentage of the North American population will be over 65. This, in itself, will place hugh demands on our healthcare system and resources....not to mention the cost factor. The question is, where will the money come from?
Perhaps we should be thinking of ways to promote lifestyle changes through wellness programs which will help decrease the demand for healthcare resources in the future.

So that we can postpone people getting sick? They'll all get sick eventually, regardless of how healthy, the question is really what age. From a purely economic point of view, everyone who knocks off at 65 doesn't live long enough to get alzheimer's and a heart attack at 85. Lifestyle changes don't save money unless they come with less treatment when you actually get sick.

So that we can postpone people getting sick? They'll all get sick eventually, regardless of how healthy, the question is really what age. From a purely economic point of view, everyone who knocks off at 65 doesn't live long enough to get alzheimer's and a heart attack at 85. Lifestyle changes don't save money unless they come with less treatment when you actually get sick.

It's not the people that "knock off at 65" who cost the healthcare system so much money. Think of the person who strokes out at 55, stops working and therefore paying taxes/contributing to the economy, goes through expensive rehab, in and out of the hospital for years with aspiration pneumonias because he can't handle his secretions, and finally succumbs to sepsis 20 years later. Or the poorly controlled diabetic who goes blind from retinopathy and starts hemodialysis in his mid 50's -- same situation, and of course medicare pays for dialysis.

It's not the people that "knock off at 65" who cost the healthcare system so much money. Think of the person who strokes out at 55, stops working and therefore paying taxes/contributing to the economy, goes through expensive rehab, in and out of the hospital for years with aspiration pneumonias because he can't handle his secretions, and finally succumbs to sepsis 20 years later. Or the poorly controlled diabetic who goes blind from retinopathy and starts hemodialysis in his mid 50's -- same situation, and of course medicare pays for dialysis.

I'll start this with the disclaimer that I think we should try and cure people.

It's really no different than the person who strokes out at 75 and does the same thing. That's really my point. From an individual perspective, prevention makes a lot of sense, as 20 extra years of life is a good thing. From a public health perspective (when the government is paying the bill), getting sick is getting sick, and it will cost what it costs when it happens. For every stroke out at 55 that lives to 75, another 10 will die within the next 10 years and not collect social security, while simultaneously avoiding 20 more years of other medical issues followed by the same strokeout.

I'm not advocating anything I said above as public health policy. I'm just pointing out that prevention as a cost saving public healthy measure is bogus. To save money, you have to offer fewer things to fewer people.