No way these stats are correct

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

PeterG

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2006
Messages
29
Reaction score
0
My friend sent me this email. It's ridiculous. There is no way these stats are correct. Anyone else read this one?

DOCTORS

(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year
are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician are 0.171.
(Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept. of Health and Human
Services)

GUNS

(A) The number of guns owners in the U.S. is
80,000,000. Yes, that is 80 million.
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all
ages groups, is 1500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is
0.000188.


Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times
more dangerous than gun owners!

Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do!"

FACT: NOT EVERY AMERICAN HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST
EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.


Out of concern for the public at large, we have
withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear the shock
would cause people to panic and seek medical
attention!

Members don't see this ad.
 
If they are correct, what will that say about the threat of guns that the media has totally blown out of proportion? :laugh:

Seriously, though, even if these numbers are true, there's a difference.

Most people don't go in to see a doctor totally healthy. Sometimes if the doctor did nothing, the patient would have died anyway, yet now that the doc has intervened, it's his fault.

Someone who gets shot is usually relatively healthy beforehand :laugh:
 
Members don't see this ad :)
bananaface said:
But, 66% of Americans are now obese. :p

Yeah and they worry about guns? What's the point when they're busy killing themselves?
 
Now compare the number of INTENTIONAL deaths by docs per year to the number of intentional deaths by guns per year, where the dead person wasn't a willing participant. I'll bet the figure is altogether different.

But who cares? Don't get me wrong because I am not anti-gun but this is obviously a pro-gun argument. One of the many that hold no water. People shouldn't insult other people's intelligence with such crap.
 
CaveatLector said:
Now compare the number of INTENTIONAL deaths by docs per year to the number of intentional deaths by guns per year, where the dead person wasn't a willing participant. I'll bet the figure is altogether different.

But who cares? Don't get me wrong because I am not anti-gun but this is obviously a pro-gun argument. One of the many that hold no water. People shouldn't insult other people's intelligence with such crap.

Well...

I think it's handy to compare the scale when the media demonizes particular risks. How many MVA deaths are there per year?

It's useful to know what's most likely to actually kill you, because if you believe the media, it's either guns, terrorists, or escaped convicts.
 
I remember when the study came out which esitmated 120k death per year. It was my understanding that those were all the deaths due to health care errors, including those made by nurses, docs, the pharmacy etc. It may also have included preventable in hospital injuries (falls out of bed, etc.) So the premise that docs are inherently more dangerous then guns is silly.

jbar
 
This is one of the stupidest posts because it has no DEFINITIONS!!

Seriously ... what do you define as an accidental death? Is an accidental death one in which given all current medical possibilities, the patient still dies under medical care? Or is it that the doctor is unable to make or misses a particular diagnosis and the patient experiences a bad outcome (in this case death)?

The fact is that deaths while under the care of physicians is not as straightforward as death due to a gun. The concept of "intention" is of key importance. You can't use malpractice settlements or any other settlements.

And what is an accidental gun death? I don't feel you can ONLY use *accidental* gun deaths. The fact is that if somebody has a knife and no gun they are much less likely to be able to kill somebody else because it just isn't as easy and requires close range. (This is an assumption, but since you're making countless erroneous assumptions, why not?) So the TOTAL number of deaths due to firearms and the TOTAL number of deaths due to doctors has to be taken into account, because it is to be expected that 100% of accidental deaths due to doctors approximately equals the total number of deaths due to doctors (because the number of doctors intentionally killing their patients isn't that high). However, the number of accidental deaths due to guns is FAR less than the number of intentional deaths.

So I re-visit my position that the OP is either trying to be sarcastic or has no idea what he's talking about.
 
bananaface said:
But, 66% of Americans are now obese. :p
No, 66% are overweight or obese. It's something like 30% are obese. (This is American adults).
 
oh god.. those accidental deaths are way overreported. You have to look at what they consider an accidental death.
 
Seems overreported to me too. Like an earlier poster asked, what is an accidental death?

On the other side of the coin, studies show that among gun owners who actually use a gun to kill another human being they are not generally using it in a self-defense manner. Studies show that a gun is more likely to be used to kill another member of your own household than to be used to kill someone (ie: burglar) in self-defense.

With that said, guns are a risk in society. Many other things are a risk as well. We, as a society, have decided that a certain amount of risk is okay in relation to the benefit of gun ownership or ownership of anything else that poses a risk to human life that is currently legal to own/use. Guns are obviously unsafe to a degree. And so are so many other things in this country. But the benefit outweighs the risk to us.

Bottom line is comparing gun deaths to medical related deaths is apples to oranges. I am not anti-gun. However I don't call myself pro-gun either (at least not in the michigan militia sort of way). Guns are not safe to play with and if not treated with respect/handled properly/stored properly that they can be dangerous. That danger is a risk I am willing to assume in society at this point.

Doctors, like every human, are NOT infallable. Some may cause death by a stupid mistake. Most will regret it and never do it again because statistically speaking I have to think that MOST doctors who cause a death don't do it again. Does that make it easier on the family of the deceased? No. And I do sympathize. However, doctors will always be human and therefore unintentional deaths will always be caused. We should strive to prevent it but it simply cannot be done 100%. That's not pessimism that is just a fact of life.

Really this thread is not a healthcare topic at all. It just serves to try to justify gun ownership by comparing it to a random mode of accidental death. I think that is ignorant. However, I don't think gun ownership needs to be justified by such a comparison. We, as a society, have decided that the utility of gun ownership outweighs the potential risk. Bottom line, end of story.
 
I think we all know that the real killer out there is........MAD-COW DISEASE!!!! And frankly, if you're crazy enough that you're still eating meat, you deserve it.
 
It would help to know if the definition for "accidental death" by physician. You could use a very broad term which may include all accidental hospital deaths that may not be a result of a physician at all. Sounds like dumb propaganda to me.
 
aphistis said:
You insensitive jerk. The correct term is "specific-gravity deficient."

:D
As always, one can count on Bill to come up with something original.... :thumbup:
 
PeterG said:
DOCTORS

(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year
are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician are 0.171.
(Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept. of Health and Human
Services)

According to the CDC, the average per year "for USA for Accidental death: 93,591 per year, 7,799 per month, 1,799 per week, 256 per day, 10 per hour, 0 per minute, 0 per second." That's 93,591 total accidental deaths, which they define as "unintentional injuries".

The last year of statistics that you can currently search for, though, is from 2002. In that year it is the fifth leading cause of death overall, however it is number one from ages 1 to 44. The top twenty for 2002 are : Heart
Disease 696,947; Malignant Neoplasms 557,271;Cerebro-vascular 162,672;Chronic Low. Respiratory Disease 124,816;UnintentionalInjury 106,742;Diabetes Mellitus 73,249;Influenza & Pneumonia 65,681;Alzheimer's Disease 58,866;Nephritis 40,974;Septicemia 33,865;Suicide 31,655;Liver
Disease 27,257;Hypertension 20,261;Homicide 17,638;Pneumonitis 17,593;Parkinson's Disease 16,959;Aortic Aneurysm 14,818;Perinatal Period
14,254;HIV 14,095; and Athero-sclerosis 13,821.

This Article, though, makes different claims, mostly based on drug reactions, whether or not it was actually the physician's fault. However, one could claim these as "accidental" deaths caused by physicians based on certain criteria:

Medical Errors - A Leading Cause of Death

The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness. (drug reactions are the most common cause).


You gotta' decide for yourself what you want to believe, but keep in mind that the general public reads this and believes that physicians are killing people every day.
 
BlahtoThis said:
This is one of the stupidest posts because it has no DEFINITIONS!!

Seriously ... what do you define as an accidental death? Is an accidental death one in which given all current medical possibilities, the patient still dies under medical care? Or is it that the doctor is unable to make or misses a particular diagnosis and the patient experiences a bad outcome (in this case death)?

The fact is that deaths while under the care of physicians is not as straightforward as death due to a gun. The concept of "intention" is of key importance. You can't use malpractice settlements or any other settlements.

And what is an accidental gun death? I don't feel you can ONLY use *accidental* gun deaths. The fact is that if somebody has a knife and no gun they are much less likely to be able to kill somebody else because it just isn't as easy and requires close range. (This is an assumption, but since you're making countless erroneous assumptions, why not?) So the TOTAL number of deaths due to firearms and the TOTAL number of deaths due to doctors has to be taken into account, because it is to be expected that 100% of accidental deaths due to doctors approximately equals the total number of deaths due to doctors (because the number of doctors intentionally killing their patients isn't that high). However, the number of accidental deaths due to guns is FAR less than the number of intentional deaths.

So I re-visit my position that the OP is either trying to be sarcastic or has no idea what he's talking about.

Everything that the OP posted was actually used in a commercial by a law firm that is now focusing on malpractice cases.

That stuff is ambiguous on purpose: to scare the lay person into hiring a lawyer everytime they vist the doc. so that the lawyer can somehow truly lookout for their lives.

lawyers are ignorant...nuff said
 
Top