...

I have heard of students from morocco checking "african american".

North Africans are typically considered Caucasians.

North Africans are typically considered Caucasians.

......

Caucasian is not available as a choice in the medical school application, instead the choice is White, and I am certainly not white. Besides many people in the Asian continent are Caucasian including Indians but they get their own box to tick. As for me I would guess my ancestry is a mixture of Black, White, and Middle Eastern people.

In that case, the best thing to do might be to check 'other', and explain your ethnicity (if you deem it necessary) further in your application. Going from your thread title, you seem less concerned with your ethnicity, and more concerned with achieving URM status, to which I say :laugh:

I would suggest doing the following, in order:

1) Look at your options on paper.

2) Look in the mirror.

3) Look at your options on paper.

4) Look in the mirror.

5) Fill in as many boxes as you see fit.

--------

This question isn't suppose to be a difficult AMCAS question. Perhaps this might make it easier: Growing up, did you always consider yourself African-American/Black, or ANY other race/ethnicity? If it was anything other than African-American/Black, then DO NOT check that box. If you feel that your race/ethnicity isn't an option on the list, select OTHER and fill in the blank with whatever the hell sounds good to you.

The fact of the matter is that you don't want to select a box and then show up at an interview lookin like something way different. They will either think A) you have mental issues, or B) you are having an identity crisis (which could be a form of option (A). Either way, I'd just select Chinese and move on.

(I am tired and going to bed... <yawn> )

Overdose on Melanotan II; you won't even know what you are at the end :P

I think a good way to resovle these types of threads forever is for the OP's to ask their Mother's if they are URM's. That should settle the issue right there. :rolleyes:

North Africans are typically considered Caucasians.


Look at the US Census Website....Caucasian refers to those people of European, Middle Eastern, and North African descent.

Which means that black people can be caucasians....and white people and can be african american

I am from the African continent, and I was wondering would I have the benefits of being classified as URM?

not in my book
you admitted you are "non-black"....soooooooooooooooo...why would you even consider yourself as possibly being a URM?

I am from the African continent, and I was wondering would I have the benefits of being classified as URM?
Why not? It seems to me like the whole URM system was designed to be abused. I mean, if my fabulously wealthy, prep-school educated roomate who happens to be of Hispanic origins can claim URM status, I see no reason why anyone shouldnt be able to :rolleyes:

Why not? It seems to me like the whole URM system was designed to be abused. I mean, if my fabulously wealthy, prep-school educated roomate who happens to be of Hispanic origins can claim URM status, I see no reason why anyone shouldnt be able to :rolleyes:

The form is inelegant and poorly written, but clearly the point of URM is to address historic disadvantages of certain peoples of minority in this country. It has nothing to do with the net worth or need of the current individual (such as your roommate), it addresses as a group. Thus by African American on the form they clearly mean black, because that is the group with the history of disadvantage in the process in the US.

I am from the African continent, and I was wondering would I have the benefits of being classified as URM?

Hey as usual you know SDNers will jump on this an rip it apart so why dont you save yourself the time and just call AAMC and ask someone who can help you better.

Check according to how you self-identify in normal life, not according to the perceived benefits. It's not about semantics, or about the exact shade of your skin, or about what other people think. This really isn't rocket-science people.

The form is inelegant and poorly written, but clearly the point of URM is to address historic disadvantages of certain peoples of minority in this country. It has nothing to do with the net worth or need of the current individual (such as your roommate), it addresses as a group. Thus by African American on the form they clearly mean black, because that is the group with the history of disadvantage in the process in the US.

No, the URM system is based off the fallacious notion that a racial group as a whole can in fact be 'disadvantaged' and that these disadvantages can be corrected through a haphazard system of preferential treatment. If it was just, as you claim, based on 'historic disadvantages,' then Latino-Americans most likely would not be eligible for URM status, while East Asian-Americans would be.

The system is flawed, and has been designed with loopholes big enough to drive a truck through. If the OP can take advantage of it, more power to him/her. If thats what it takes to demonstrate how ridiculous the system is, then its fine with me.

I am from the African continent, and I was wondering would I have the benefits of being classified as URM?

NO. "african american" is just the pc way of saying "BLACK!"
GEEZ, PEOPLE, are you that desperate for urm status?

No, the URM system is based off the fallacious notion that a group as a whole can in fact be 'historically disadvantaged' and that these disadvantages can be corrected through a haphazard system of preferential treatment. If it was just, as you claim, based on 'historic disadvantages,' then Latino-Americans most likely would not be eligible for URM status, while East Asian-Americans would be.

The system is flawed, and has been designed with loopholes big enough to drive a truck through. If the OP can take advantage of it, more power to him/her. If thats what it takes to demonstrate how ridiculous the system is, then its fine with me.

Your argument is slightly misinformed. First "disadvantaged" status is different from URM status as defined by AAMC. Check their site.
Second the URM system is based (or is now based) on proportions/ratios i.e. The number of admitted students of a certain ethnicity relative to their number in the general population.
DIsadvantaged status has to do with socioeconomic class (rich or poor).

You are right that the system is not perfect.

You are wrong that URM equates to peferential treatment otherwise every URM that applies each year should get into every school they apply to.

URM status does not relieve any applicant of the need to have good stats. The advantage of URM status however is to allow the Adcom evaluate you on the basis of diversity. Diversity alone cannot get you in but it can really help if you use it to your advantage (Personal statement, interview etc).

Is this in itself fair to non_URMs - well technically no but in reality yes. Why?
1) because the system defaults to non_URM.
2) We live in a diverse world
3) Doctors are not saints - they are human

and now we have yet another AA thread

and now we have yet another AA thread

It was already one from the very first post. What other reason would one be concerned about getting URM status.

You are wrong that URM equates to peferential treatment otherwise every URM that applies each year should get into every school they apply to.

Are you kidding me? Preferential treatment is exactly what it amounts to. Just because said preferential treatment is not so extreme as to allow every URM applicant to be admitted to every med school they apply to doesnt mean that they arent being given preferential treatment at all.

URM status does not relieve any applicant of the need to have good stats.

Pick up a copy of MSAR and look up the statistics for Meharry and Howard. I'm not saying those are bad stats, but lets face it, a non-URM applying with stats like that would most likely be rejected everywhere they applied.

It was already one from the very first post. What other reason would one be concerned about getting URM status.
Asking if one qualifies for AA and debating the merits of AA are two different things.

Preach it, bon vivant!

Haha, who am I kidding, if I thought I would gain an advantage by applying as a URM I would most certainly do it! Now if I have phenomenal stats and have plenty of confidence that I wouldn't need such an advantage then I might consider not doing it. Otherwise, I would most certainly take every advantage I could get!

Now, unfortunately, since I am an East-Asian American I already have an "ORM" box automatically checked right next to my name, meaning "overrepresented minority." On top of that, since my residence in CA I have another ethnicity box checked as well: The "F@cked" box =P

Are you kidding me? Preferential treatment is exactly what it amounts to. Just because said preferential treatment is not so extreme as to allow every URM applicant to be admitted to every med school they apply to doesnt mean that they arent being given preferential treatment at all.



Pick up a copy of MSAR and look up the statistics for Meharry and Howard. I'm not saying those are bad stats, but lets face it, a non-URM applying with stats like that would most likely be rejected everywhere they applied.

Dude, seriously chill out. What you are saying has been said over and over on SDN. If you want to discuss AA first search this forum or the Drslounge forum and you will see all sides to this argument. Research that then you can come back and post on this thread about something that hasn't been said before.

Dude, seriously chill out. What you are saying has been said over and over on SDN. If you want to discuss AA first search this forum or the Drslounge forum and you will see all sides to this argument. Research that then you can come back and post on this thread about something that hasn't been said before.
Dude, if people are going to deny basic facts, then I'm going to have to point that out. I'm not attacking anyone, so there's really no need for the admonition to 'chill out.'

Dude, if people are going to deny basic facts, then I'm going to have to point that out. I'm not attacking anyone, so there's really no need for the admonition to 'chill out.'

I don't consider this:

Pick up a copy of MSAR and look up the statistics for Meharry and Howard. I'm not saying those are bad stats, but lets face it, a non-URM applying with stats like that would most likely be rejected everywhere they applied.

a basic fact. Where is the evidence for such a claim? There doesn't exist an alogorithm to getting into medical school. Besides, private medical schools like Meharry and Howard can do whatever they want.

i thought the whole idea behind urm status is for schools to increase diversity in their classes and furthermore the medical field....to better reflect the patient population they will be dealing with...

Why not? It seems to me like the whole URM system was designed to be abused. I mean, if my fabulously wealthy, prep-school educated roomate who happens to be of Hispanic origins can claim URM status, I see no reason why anyone shouldnt be able to :rolleyes:

everything is made to be abused by someone

I don't consider this:



a basic fact. Where is the evidence for such a claim? There doesn't exist an alogorithm to getting into medical school. Besides, private medical schools like Meharry and Howard can do whatever they want.
Meharry Medical College:
Median Science GPA: 2.93
Median MCAT: 25

Howard University College of Medicine:
Median Science GPA: 3.10
Median MCAT: 24

These are the lowest numbers for allopathic med schools in the US. If you want to be a total denialist and pretend that this has nothing to do with the fact that these schools almost exclusively admit URMs (more specifically, African Americans) and that plenty of Pakistani and Korean applicants get into US allopathic medical schools with numbers like that, then thats your problem.

I'm always amazed by this whole "chip on the shoulder" thing when it comes to minority status. It's as if URM-related debates seem to bring out the worst in certain (usually non-URM) people. All of a sudden, everyone's got a 'rich Hispanic friend' or 'upper-class African American classmate' who 'never had to struggle for anything' and who's going to get into 'all the good schools' because they're (black/hispanic/native american/etc etc).

I remember these debates from my pre-collegiate days at CC. As it was pointed out there, so many times, there isn't a single person out there (among those whom constantly complain about the unfairness of affirmative action) who would undergo a color transplant, and remain (black/hispanic/native american/etc etc) for the rest of their lives, in order to take advantage of the presumed assets of checking a particular ethnicity box during college/grad school applications. Not one.

You don't want to be a minority *all the time*...you just want to be a minority during the application process - and then POOF! non-minority again!
If that's not possible, then we revert to the wolf in the manger status. You can't use it, so you dun't want nobody 'lse to use it.

:) It's like high school all over again! (Good to know some things will never change).

I think it is a bad idea to apply as african-american b/c it shows low character... Also,it will cost you at the interview when they realize you are trying to beat the system. Now if you change your last name and apply as hispanic... j/k :)

I'm always amazed by this whole "chip on the shoulder" thing when it comes to minority status. It's as if URM-related debates seem to bring out the worst in certain (usually non-URM) people. All of a sudden, everyone's got a 'rich Hispanic friend' or 'upper-class African American classmate' who 'never had to struggle for anything' and who's going to get into 'all the good schools' because they're (black/hispanic/native american/etc etc).

I remember these debates from my pre-collegiate days at CC. As it was pointed out there, so many times, there isn't a single person out there (among those whom constantly complain about the unfairness of affirmative action) who would undergo a color transplant, and remain (black/hispanic/native american/etc etc) for the rest of their lives, in order to take advantage of the presumed assets of checking a particular ethnicity box during college/grad school applications. Not one.

You don't want to be a minority *all the time*...you just want to be a minority during the application process - and then POOF! non-minority again!
If that's not possible, then we revert to the wolf in the manger status. You can't use it, so you dun't want nobody 'lse to use it.

:) It's like high school all over again! (Good to know some things will never change).

Very well said!!!!!!!!!!!!

I commend your ability to reason.

Meharry Medical College:
Median Science GPA: 2.93
Median MCAT: 25

Howard University College of Medicine:
Median Science GPA: 3.10
Median MCAT: 24

These are the lowest numbers for allopathic med schools in the US. If you want to be a total denialist and pretend that this has nothing to do with the fact that these schools almost exclusively admit URMs (more specifically, African Americans) and that plenty of Pakistani and Korean applicants get into US allopathic medical schools with numbers like that, then thats your problem.

You really are upset enough about this to go look up the numbers. Look, everyone and their mother's dog here knows that these two schools have low "stats". Who cares? As I said these schools are private and can do whatever they want. And don't for a minute call this reverse discrimination. Discrimination is being denied to eat at a certain restaurant because of the color of your skin. Being denied to attend certain events because of the color of your skin. Being denied access to certain educational oppurtunities because of the color of your skin. Medical schools are not doing this. If you are white, black, brown, yellow, red, green, whatever YOU CAN go medical school. No school is denying the right to anyone to attend medical school. Everyone has to do what they gotta do to get in. End of story. If you are a so called ORM, then you gotta kill your GPA and MCAT and if you don't then it's on you, not on the black kid you got into Meharry with low "stats."

And in light of the discrimination theme and in light of the excellent point made by Rafa, back in the day there were a whole bunch of black folks wished they were white. Hell, some of you may of heard of black people "passing" as whites back in the day. However, you will be hard pressed to find other people that would want to be a URM.

Just thought that I would inject some humor in this thread. In India, there is a classification known as SC/ST (scheduled caste / scheduled tribe), which basically means that if your caste or tribe shows up in a government schedule (i.e. list), you are eligible for special benefits in school admission, jobs, etc. By law, a certain percentage is reserved for people belonging to that category. Obviously there is a mad rush to get one's caste or tribe included in the list, so that you can get VIP treatment. It turned out that 98% of the population in one particular state was included in this list, which got that state the dubious distinction of being "the most backward area of the world"! BTW, this is the same state that has Bangalore - the city known as the silicon valley of India, as its capital.

You really are upset enough about this to go look up the numbers. Look, everyone and their mother's dog here knows that these two schools have low "stats". Who cares? As I said these schools are private and can do whatever they want. And don't for a minute call this reverse discrimination. Discrimination is being denied to eat at a certain restaurant because of the color of your skin. Being denied to attend certain events because of the color of your skin. Being denied access to certain educational oppurtunities because of the color of your skin. Medical schools are not doing this. If you are white, black, brown, yellow, red, green, whatever YOU CAN go medical school. No school is denying the right to anyone to attend medical school. Everyone has to do what they gotta do to get in. End of story. If you are a so called ORM, then you gotta kill your GPA and MCAT and if you don't then it's on you, not on the black kid you got into Meharry with low "stats."

And in light of the discrimination theme and in light of the excellent point made by Rafa, back in the day there were a whole bunch of black folks wished they were white. Hell, some of you may of heard of black people "passing" as whites back in the day. However, you will be hard pressed to find other people that would want to be a URM.
OK, if anyone's coming here with a chip on their shoulder, its you my friend. I never attacked people who get into schools with URM status. Rather, I was clarifying that it is indeed a system of preferential treatment, and that if the OP wants to take advantage of one of its many loopholes, then I see nothing wrong with it.

OK, if anyone's coming here with a chip on their shoulder, its you my friend. I never attacked people who get into schools with URM status. Rather, I was clarifying that it is indeed a system of preferential treatment, and that if the OP wants to take advantage of one of its many loopholes, then I see nothing wrong with it.

You are right there is nothing wrong with it.

Until he his denied admission for being dishonest.

I remember these debates from my pre-collegiate days at CC. As it was pointed out there, so many times, there isn't a single person out there (among those whom constantly complain about the unfairness of affirmative action) who would undergo a color transplant, and remain (black/hispanic/native american/etc etc) for the rest of their lives, in order to take advantage of the presumed assets of checking a particular ethnicity box during college/grad school applications. Not one.

Haha...I'm South Asian. I already look Hispanic (in fact, thats what most people think I am before talking to me), I just dont get to check the box :)

OK, if anyone's coming here with a chip on their shoulder, its you my friend. I never attacked people who get into schools with URM status. Rather, I was clarifying that it is indeed a system of preferential treatment, and that if the OP wants to take advantage of one of its many loopholes, then I see nothing wrong with it.

Just the fact that you are calling it a "loophole" suggests that there is something "wrong" with it. A loophole is an ambiguity through which the intent of a writing may be evaded. By using a loophole you are circumventing the desired effect of the rule/system. It may perhaps be legal, but ethical (right versus "wrong") is a totally different question.

In answer to the OP's question, I'd say don't check African American! If you are Arab, then whether or not your skin tone exactly corresponds to that, you are considered "white" for the purpose of determining ethnicity for URMs. You may or may not think the system is fair (I don't) but that doesn't mean you should try to cheat it. Also, leaving aside moral and ethical problems, I think it will hurt your chances. If you go into interviews, especially with black interviewers, it's not going to look good that you checked it and don't look it. As another poster said, for the most part, African-American is the pc way of saying "black" And believe me, my white friend who emigrated from South Africa sure doesn't check that box on her applications...

Just the fact that you are calling it a "loophole" suggests that there is something "wrong" with it. A loophole is an ambiguity through which the intent of a writing may be evaded. By using a loophole you are circumventing the desired effect of the rule/system. It may perhaps be legal, but ethical (right versus "wrong") is a totally different question.
I'm calling it a loophole because it no doubt circumvents the intent of URM status. However, I fail to see how thats ethically any worse than hiring a tax attorney to find 'loopholes' in tax codes to save you money, or physicians placing all their major assets in trust to prevent them from being taken away in case of malpractice lawsuits against them. All of these things circumvent the 'intent' of the law.

One of my friends, also of North African descent, claimed he was African American when applying to med school this year. It didnt cause any problems for him as far as I know.

I'm calling it a loophole because it no doubt circumvents the intent of URM status. However, I fail to see how thats ethically any worse than hiring a tax attorney to find 'loopholes' in tax codes to save you money, or physicians placing all their major assets in trust to prevent them from being taken away in case of malpractice lawsuits against them. All of these things circumvent the 'intent' of the law.

One of my friends, also of North African descent, claimed he was African American when applying to med school this year. It didnt cause any problems for him as far as I know.

The difference is that the tax attorney would typically consult with the government to get their take on how the law was going to be interpreted before advising their client to use the loophole. I don't think the OP was leaning toward consulting with AMCAS before taking his loophole.

not in my book
you admitted you are "non-black"....soooooooooooooooo...why would you even consider yourself as possibly being a URM?
He's more African-American in my book than you are, so why not? Unless you were born and raised in Africa, but I believe you were born in the US, correct?

there isn't a single person out there (among those whom constantly complain about the unfairness of affirmative action) who would undergo a color transplant, and remain (black/hispanic/native american/etc etc) for the rest of their lives, in order to take advantage of the presumed assets of checking a particular ethnicity box during college/grad school applications. Not one.
I honestly don't mind my situation at all. I'm white, and I feel that I've been treated fairly. The point is not that I am/am not willing to change my race. The point is that it's not fair to give an additional advantage to someone who already has tons of advantages. I don't lose sleep over it though.

/

I am not an Arab, and that just shows how ignorant people are about Africa.
Africa is the second biggest continent, and is more diverse than you might think. I am a Berber, we are an indigenous people of Africa, and I will tick the box that says "African American", because its quite offending for me to not be considered an African. Imagine one of you people not being considered an American because they don’t fit a certain stereotypical profile. my question which now I regret asking was, would I be considered a URM applicant even though I am not black (I not white), I was going to check the African box any way because that’s who I am, an African.

Just consult with people a lot more knowledgable than us. For example, AMCAS and your pre-med advisor.

Just out of curiosity, if I were the child of, oh lets say Kenyan immigrants, and I was ethnically African (not Indian or European), would it be 'ethically' right for me to check the African-American box, even though I'm not 'black' as the term is commonly understood in the US?

I am not an Arab, and that just shows how ignorant people are about Africa. Africa is the second biggest continent, and is more diverse than you might think. I am a Berber, we are an indigenous people of Africa, and I will tick the box that says "African American", because its quite offending for me to not be considered an African. Imagine one of you people not being considered an American because they don’t fit a certain stereotypical profile. my question which now I regret asking was, would I be considered a URM applicant even though I am not black (I also not white), I was going to check the African box any way because that’s who I am, an African.

I didn't say you were an Arab. If you look at my post, I said "if you are an Arab"... I recognize that there are many different groups in North Africa such as the Berber and the Tuareg. What I'm saying is that none of those ethnicities would qualify as "black", which is typically what African-American refers too. In any case, I don't think you qualify as a URM...

OP: If you were born in Africa, regardless of your 'color', I say you should be allowed to check the box 'African American', but only if you are now an American citizen. If you are not an American citizen, you cannot check any box that says "American". This PC stuff is ridiculous and the double standards and double meanings of clear verbage is insane. If you fit the criteria in my first sentence, you are clearly entitled to the phrase "African American".

My $.02. Not that it's worth much... but still.

Are you kidding me? Preferential treatment is exactly what it amounts to. Just because said preferential treatment is not so extreme as to allow every URM applicant to be admitted to every med school they apply to doesnt mean that they arent being given preferential treatment at all.

Perhaps you are the one kidding me!!

Consider the following: (Check www.aamc.org for actual numbers and do your own math)


Assumptions => Black = URM; Asian = MRM (middle rep); WHite = ORM

In 2005

Race/Ethnicity: Blacks Asian White
Applied: 2908 7396 23425
Matriculated: 1103 3349 11119

%chance of
gettin in: 38% 45% 48%


Heres another:
Assumption => Black + all others = URM; Asian + White = ORM (Non-URM)

In 2005

Status: URM Non_URM Total
Applied: 6543 30821
Matriculated: 2536 14468 17004

%chance of
gettin in: 39% 47%


Matriculated URM = 15%
Matriculated Non_URM = 85%


Clearly an applicant still has a better chance of getting in if they are in the Non-URM category. So im not sure where the preferential treatment is. SO you see the world hasn't gone crazy - it is still good to be Non_URM when it comes to applying to med school.


Pick up a copy of MSAR and look up the statistics for Meharry and Howard. I'm not saying those are bad stats, but lets face it, a non-URM applying with stats like that would most likely be rejected everywhere they applied.


Well If they applied to the schools you mentioned they might not be rejected. These schools are not just URM. There are also NOn-URMs that attend so not sure what the argument is there.

Ok now im done indulging - back to work for me, then its beer time and ladies and everything done on a Friday night.

Have a great weekend peeps!!

Well done Orth2006, well done.

He's more African-American in my book than you are, so why not? Unless you were born and raised in Africa, but I believe you were born in the US, correct?

Well then your book definitely does not agree with AMCAS's/AMA's either. He can call himself what he wants, but when it comes to defining himself according to AMA's intentions his (and your's for that matter) definition will be questioned.
We can go on about the term African-American and about its origins...but that is not necessary here.

I personally am trying to get over the usage of the word "black" b/c it has negative connotations within this society.

OP: If you were born in Africa, regardless of your 'color', I say you should be allowed to check the box 'African American', but only if you are now an American citizen. If you are not an American citizen, you cannot check any box that says "American". This PC stuff is ridiculous and the double standards and double meanings of clear verbage is insane. If you fit the criteria in my first sentence, you are clearly entitled to the phrase "African American".

My $.02. Not that it's worth much... but still.


Yeah but that would be considered false identity, regardless of the fact that technically his nationality is "African-American" (please notice that I did not use the word ethnicity...there is a big diff). My nationality is American, but I am an afr. amer by ethnicity (or otherwise known as black american)

I guarantee you that person does not for a minute affiliated himself with (afr americans (think ethnicity).

Perhaps you are the one kidding me!!

Consider the following: (Check www.aamc.org for actual numbers and do your own math)


Assumptions => Black = URM; Asian = MRM (middle rep); WHite = ORM

In 2005

Race/Ethnicity: Blacks Asian White
Applied: 2908 7396 23425
Matriculated: 1103 3349 11119

%chance of
gettin in: 38% 45% 48%


Heres another:
Assumption => Black + all others = URM; Asian + White = ORM (Non-URM)

In 2005

Status: URM Non_URM Total
Applied: 6543 30821
Matriculated: 2536 14468 17004

%chance of
gettin in: 39% 47%


Matriculated URM = 15%
Matriculated Non_URM = 85%


Clearly an applicant still has a better chance of getting in if they are in the Non-URM category. So im not sure where the preferential treatment is. SO you see the world hasn't gone crazy - it is still good to be Non_URM when it comes to applying to med school.




Well If they applied to the schools you mentioned they might not be rejected. These schools are not just URM. There are also NOn-URMs that attend so not sure what the argument is there.

Ok now im done indulging - back to work for me, then its beer time and ladies and everything done on a Friday night.

Have a great weekend peeps!!


yes yes

mad props!

not in my book
you admitted you are "non-black"....soooooooooooooooo...why would you even consider yourself as possibly being a URM?

Are you kidding? Do you think that black people are the only racial minorities that are underrepresented in medicine? Get some education on these issues; you're embarassing yourself.

Race/Ethnicity: Blacks Asian White
Applied: 2908 7396 23425
Matriculated: 1103 3349 11119

%chance of
gettin in: 38% 45% 48%

These numbers are worthless without also seeing the average MCAT/GPA/ECs associated with each of these.

Are you kidding? Do you think that black people are the only racial minorities that are underrepresented in medicine? Get some education on these issues; you're embarassing yourself.

Don't be silly :) Everyone on these boards knows that Af-Ams aren't the only folks considered underrepresented in medicine. However, this thread (as indicated by the title, and by the original post of the thread starter), has to do with black people, and what it means for someone from Africa to ID himself/herself as 'black' or 'African-American' on the AMCAS application. If you'd like to start threads about whether non-hispanic people are considered URMs, you're welcome to do so - and no one will insult your intelligence by implying you thought only Hispanic people were underrepresented in medicine. No need for semantics here :cool:

Good comments, riceman04.

These numbers are worthless without also seeing the average MCAT/GPA/ECs associated with each of these.

I don't know - what about the "numbers" people use to 'prove' that sub-par URMs get into schools more easily than sub-par nonURMs? I challenge you to find a set of statistics on AMCAS that compares the extra-curicullars or socioeconomic backgrounds of applicants (minorities or otherwise), and still suggests URMs have significant advantages over non-URMs. You might have a hard time finding such statistics because, to be honest, they don't exist.

Edit:

They don't exist because there is more to whether an applicant gets into a particular medical school than his/her race, MCAT score, and GPA. How exactly do you determine that, although ten URMs had lower MCATs and GPAs than ten non-URMs, the URMs didn't have better essays? More diverse extra-curicculars? More diverse/challenging life experiences?
You can't. You're not an adcom, and I suspect if you were, you wouldn't see the issue as such a black and white one (you the general you). MCAT and GPA charts are easy to make. They don't take time, and they reduce people to numbers, which seems to be what people who are vehemently anti-AA want the game to be settled down to. But people aren't machines. Robots don't make good doctors. Admissions committees realize this, which is why they look for applicants who bring a number of qualities *unrelated* to MCAT or GPA scores to their particular schools. If you think (general you) the only thing keeping you out of medical school is some checked box on the AMCAS application, then it suggests that you don't have much faith in the rest of your application, or in your ability to represent yourself as more than a set of numbers, but as a warm, living, breathing, compassionate human being.

Sure, there are URMs who take unfair advantage of the system. But I'd wager that the majority of people who actually *are* underrepresented minorities *aren't* fabulously wealthy kids from fabulously educated families. This myth of the super-rich URM who evilly checks the race box and takes *your* spots at *your* schools is just that -- a myth. A boogeyman. A scapegoat. But it always comes around when this argument/debate is raised. It's like complaining about hypothetical/assumed advantages is more fun than actually taking the steps to make yourself as strong of an applicant as you can possibly be. I dunno....

Point is, statistics are subjective (as you know). But if you're going to declare these stats meaningless for lacking certain bits of information, then when stats are presented to support opposing positions, you've got to be willing to hold those statistics to the same standards as you're holding these ones to.

Are you kidding? Do you think that black people are the only racial minorities that are underrepresented in medicine? Get some education on these issues; you're embarassing yourself.

With what other URM grp would he identify?
Wow...before you make bold ass statements you should reread what was stated.

I don't know - what about the "numbers" people use to 'prove' that sub-par URMs get into schools more easily than sub-par nonURMs? I challenge you to find a set of statistics on AMCAS that compares the extra-curicullars or socioeconomic backgrounds of applicants (minorities or otherwise), and still suggests URMs have significant advantages over non-URMs. You might have a hard time finding such statistics because, to be honest, they don't exist.

Edit:

They don't exist because there is more to whether an applicant gets into a particular medical school than his/her race, MCAT score, and GPA. How exactly do you determine that, although ten URMs had lower MCATs and GPAs than ten non-URMs, the URMs didn't have better essays? More diverse extra-curicculars? More diverse/challenging life experiences?
You can't. You're not an adcom, and I suspect if you were, you wouldn't see the issue as such a black and white one (you the general you). MCAT and GPA charts are easy to make. They don't take time, and they reduce people to numbers, which seems to be what people who are vehemently anti-AA want the game to be settled down to. But people aren't machines. Robots don't make good doctors. Admissions committees realize this, which is why they look for applicants who bring a number of qualities *unrelated* to MCAT or GPA scores to their particular schools. If you think (general you) the only thing keeping you out of medical school is some checked box on the AMCAS application, then it suggests that you don't have much faith in the rest of your application, or in your ability to represent yourself as more than a set of numbers, but as a warm, living, breathing, compassionate human being.

Sure, there are URMs who take unfair advantage of the system. But I'd wager that the majority of people who actually *are* underrepresented minorities *aren't* fabulously wealthy kids from fabulously educated families. This myth of the super-rich URM who evilly checks the race box and takes *your* spots at *your* schools is just that -- a myth. A boogeyman. A scapegoat. But it always comes around when this argument/debate is raised. It's like complaining about hypothetical/assumed advantages is more fun than actually taking the steps to make yourself as strong of an applicant as you can possibly be. I dunno....

Point is, statistics are subjective (as you know). But if you're going to declare these stats meaningless for lacking certain bits of information, then when stats are presented to support opposing positions, you've got to be willing to hold those statistics to the same standards as you're holding these ones to.

Rafa, one of the most intelligent, well thought out posts I have read in a while. I commend you!

Are you kidding? Do you think that black people are the only racial minorities that are underrepresented in medicine? Get some education on these issues; you're embarassing yourself.

Let me help you understand the specificity of this conversation...I will hold your hand so you dont miss a ste ok :rolleyes:

Ok so here is what he said: "I am from the African continent, and I was wondering would I have the benefits of being classified as URM?"

Now, being that he is talking about URM's we have to rule out the possibility that he is an Afrikaan (assuming he is refering to ethnicity)...you understand?...lets keep going

Ok so now with what other URM group would you think this person is attempting to affiliate if he states he is from North Africa and does not suggest in any way that he is Latino/Hispanic, Native American, or Pacific Islander?

Now do you understand where I was coming from when I made that statement?

Next time...try that reasoning before you make such statements about me and my education.

Edit: removed my post because I don't want to get into an argument

Ok. I have a TOTALLY sincere question. How come the word 'negro' is frowned upon in our society anymore? Isn't there the United Negro College Fund? And several other organizations for the promotion and benefit of those darker-skinned than us folk who burn in 10 minutes even with sunscreen that have the word 'Negro' in them? Honestly, when did we go from a race to a color to a heritage for pc? And how are we supposed to know what is the best way to describe a race or color or heritage or nationality or ethnicity or whateveryouwanttocallitthesedays when older terms are still used by well-respected organizations?

Truly... I can't keep it all straight anymore. :(

Honestly, this isn't meant to inflame.. it's a honest question. Kindof like the do non-(caucasian/white/pigment-deficient) people get sunburned? (I have heard they do, I just never knew). These are things no one really talks about. :(

Edit: removed my post because I don't want to get into an argument


no post it...might as well...no hard feelings if it towards me.

Rafa, one of the most intelligent, well thought out posts I have read in a while. I commend you!

Thanks, gostudy. If only I could spend time formulating thoughts for school-related homework though ;)

no post it...might as well...no hard feelings if it towards me.

don't worry about it, it wasn't towards you :)

What I was going to say is- If people stopped worrying so much about AA, URMs and all that and focused on working on their applications instead, they'd be better off.

Ok. I have a TOTALLY sincere question. How come the word 'negro' is frowned upon in our society anymore? Isn't there the United Negro College Fund? And several other organizations for the promotion and benefit of those darker-skinned than us folk who burn in 10 minutes even with sunscreen that have the word 'Negro' in them? Honestly, when did we go from a race to a color to a heritage for pc? And how are we supposed to know what is the best way to describe a race or color or heritage or nationality or ethnicity or whateveryouwanttocallitthesedays when older terms are still used by well-respected organizations?

Truly... I can't keep it all straight anymore. :(

Honestly, this isn't meant to inflame.. it's a honest question. Kindof like the do non-(caucasian/white/pigment-deficient) people get sunburned? (I have heard they do, I just never knew). These are things no one really talks about. :(


Understood!!! What you ask about the UNCF is a valid question.
I personally do not like the word Negro b/c of its affiliations with a pretty disgraceful past. The UNCF (i am pretty sure) was established during that time too. And just for tradition sake, I guess the name has not been changed.

wow AA is a hot button issue on these thread lol. :laugh: Technically you are "african-american" but you are not under-rep thus, checking the box will not be of any benefit. If you try to get a tan go in with a "big-momma" type constume it might cost you if they figure it out... :laugh: but if not....

These numbers are worthless without also seeing the average MCAT/GPA/ECs associated with each of these.

Are they really worthless?

Ok assume average URM MCAT/GPA is 23/3.2 and average ORM MCAT/GPA is 28/3.5. ECs for this purpose will be same for both. It is still clear that a sub-par Non-URM stands a better chance of acceptance than a sub_par URM 47% to 39%. Those numbers don't lie. Are there some Non_URMs with a 23/32 that get in? Yes - not many though but some do. Are there some URMs with 28/3.5 that dont get in? Yes and the point is no particular group of applicants are unduly favored on the basis of race.

Don't get too caught up on Stats and forget that Personal essay, interview, maturity amongst other things also count for something.

Sure, there are URMs who take unfair advantage of the system. But I'd wager that the majority of people who actually *are* underrepresented minorities *aren't* fabulously wealthy kids from fabulously educated families. This myth of the super-rich URM who evilly checks the race box and takes *your* spots at *your* schools is just that -- a myth. A boogeyman. A scapegoat. But it always comes around when this argument/debate is raised. It's like complaining about hypothetical/assumed advantages is more fun than actually taking the steps to make yourself as strong of an applicant as you can possibly be. I dunno....

I understand the point you are trying to make about this URM "boogeyman," and while he certainly does exist, I agree that this example is often overused in the URM debate. However, the whole point of offering a URM status is to give some sort of preferrential treatment to underrepresented minorities. If people weren't compensated for poorer stats by checking the box, then why would they do so, in fact, why would there be a box?


You can't argue that URMs with slighly lower stats don't benefit from having URM status. And, I feel that any advantage given based on racial grounds, no matter how small, is wrong. These debates are so stupid...but since I've started...

1. Anyone who has made it to a large university and has completed a bachelor's degree is no longer in a racially disadvantaged position. (Unless you actively experience discrimination in school, which, at least in California, is pretty unheard of, especially in large science classes with upwards of 200 students) In other words, there is no reason why race itself can justify a poor GPA or MCAT. Granted, I can see how coming from a poor background might make the transition to college harder...but this is a socioeconomic factor, not a racial issue.

side- this is normally the part where pro-URM/AA people start saying how no white person would ever trade to be a URM and how the majority can never truly see discrimination, etc, etc....but I'm talking about grades and standardized tests, not life.

2. Is having a diverse, "representative" population of doctors as important as having fully-qualified ones? This argument generally ends with someone saying, "Anyone who made it through pre-reqs and passed the MCAT, graduated med school and passed the boards is qualified in my book." I don't want to get into why that argument sucks, mostly because if you agree with that you probably won't change your mind..... Granted, you might feel that having a diverse population is more important than being "fair" to all the applicants, so it's a question of values I suppose.

3. Lastly, what about the URM's that are competitive applicants and have to deal with this stigma their entire lives? Furthermore, does having "solutions" like the URM box really fix our societal problems? Will minorities become dependent on these advantages? (I'm not trying to sound like a prick, but I'm a psychology major and am well aware of the honest pros and cons of having things "handed" to you.) Does AA/URM status merely mask the real problems, allowing us to dismiss things like how aweful our public education system is?...after all, look at all the Black/Hispanic/etc doctors! :laugh:

Anyway, I hope that someday I have to explain to my kids how crazy America used to be and how when Daddy was young, schools actually weighted student applications based on the color of people's skin...can you believe that? My ending point; if you don't see that something is fundamentally wrong here you are either a) ignorant or b) benefiting from the system.. I certainly don't blame anyone for doing this, I wish I had a box to check, but at least have the balls to admit how stupid it is...

Clearly an applicant still has a better chance of getting in if they are in the Non-URM category. So im not sure where the preferential treatment is. SO you see the world hasn't gone crazy - it is still good to be Non_URM when it comes to applying to med school.

Way to artfully use those statistics. Now, come up with mean or medican MCAT scores for matriculants from all those ethnic groups and maybe I'll believe you.

Well If they applied to the schools you mentioned they might not be rejected. These schools are not just URM. There are also NOn-URMs that attend so not sure what the argument is there.

You know as well as I do that those schools are overwhelmingly URM. According to MSAR (DISCLAIMER: I have a copy on my desk, I'm not so obsessed as to be running to the library every time I post), Howard's 2004-05 entering class was 83% Hispanic and Black, while Meharry was 86% Hispanic and Black. They dont call them 'historically black' medical schools for no reason.

So, just out of curiosity, if schools dont give URM any special consideration or preferential treatment, why do the even bother asking if youre applying as URM on the AMCAS? Is the question just there for decoration?

So, just out of curiosity, if schools dont give URM any special consideration or preferential treatment, why do the even bother asking if youre applying as URM on the AMCAS? Is the question just there for decoration?

Exactly, that argument is illogical. If you think having a URM option is a good idea, at least find a better way to justify it than arguing that it does no good...that just doesn't make sense.

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3539

Don't know if this is real or not, but if it is...

I was suprised when I first saw this...I mean...someone getting into Harvard with a 29 MCAT and a 3.45! Oh wait...they're URM. Go figure. :rolleyes:

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3539

Don't know if this is real or not, but if it is...

I was suprised when I first saw this...I mean...someone getting into Harvard with a 29 MCAT and a 3.45! Oh wait...they're URM. Go figure. :rolleyes:


...and Columbia, and UCSF, and UCI

Way to artfully use those statistics. Now, come up with mean or medican MCAT scores for matriculants from all those ethnic groups and maybe I'll believe you.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm
Matriculants 2005
Asian average MCAT: 31.3
White average MCAT: 30.9
Black average MCAT: 25.2

pwnage

...and Columbia, and UCSF, and UCI

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3952
http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=1116
http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=645

Don't hate the player :) Hate the game:)

They don't exist because there is more to whether an applicant gets into a particular medical school than his/her race, MCAT score, and GPA. How exactly do you determine that, although ten URMs had lower MCATs and GPAs than ten non-URMs, the URMs didn't have better essays? More diverse extra-curicculars? More diverse/challenging life experiences?

Individual applicants may indeed have excellent personal statements or remarkable life experiences to compensate for subpar GPA's and MCATs. But when you look at the mean or median GPAs and MCATs, such extenuating factors get averaged out so you can look at general trends for a group. Thats kinda the point behind asking for average figures, not anecdotes about individual applicants. Just like when you look at average GPAs and MCATs for accepted applicants at various schools to help evaluate your own chances of being admitted and to compare which schools are numerically more or less difficult to get into. I'm sure Wash U accepts plenty of people with GPA's and MCATs significantly lower than the median, but that doesnt mean that the median value isnt a useful tool for looking at the admissions process at that school.

Now, unless you want to claim something totally ridiculous, like all URMs write kick ass personal statements, or all URMs have amazing extracurriculars, your claim is null.

PS, apparently the figures do exist. See above.

Individual applicants may indeed have excellent personal statements or remarkable life experiences to compensate for subpar GPA's and MCATs. But when you look at the mean or median GPAs and MCATs, such extenuating factors get averaged out so you can look at general trends for a group. Thats kinda the point behind asking for average figures, not anecdotes about individual applicants. Just like when you look at average GPAs and MCATs for accepted applicants at various schools to help evaluate your own chances of being admitted and to compare which schools are numerically more or less difficult to get into. I'm sure Wash U accepts plenty of people with GPA's and MCATs significantly lower than the median, but that doesnt mean that the median value isnt a useful tool for looking at the admissions process at that school.

Now, unless you want to claim something totally ridiculous, like all URMs write kick ass personal statements, or all URMs have amazing extracurriculars, your claim is null.

PS, apparently the figures do exist. See above.


stop hating remember that 42 percent of URM's go to a historically black medical school thus, why are you complaining???

stop hating remember that 42 percent of URM's go to a historically black medical school thus, why are you complaining???
I'm not complaining. I just think we should call a spade a spade. URMs are shown preferential treatment in the admissions process. Thats all I'm trying to say.

I understand the point you are trying to make about this URM "boogeyman," and while he certainly does exist, I agree that this example is often overused in the URM debate. However, the whole point of offering a URM status is to give some sort of preferrential treatment to underrepresented minorities. If people weren't compensated for poorer stats by checking the box, then why would they do so, in fact, why would there be a box?


You can't argue that URMs with slighly lower stats don't benefit from having URM status. And, I feel that any advantage given based on racial grounds, no matter how small, is wrong. These debates are so stupid...but since I've started...

1. Anyone who has made it to a large university and has completed a bachelor's degree is no longer in a racially disadvantaged position. (Unless you actively experience discrimination in school, which, at least in California, is pretty unheard of, especially in large science classes with upwards of 200 students) In other words, there is no reason why race itself can justify a poor GPA or MCAT. Granted, I can see how coming from a poor background might make the transition to college harder...but this is a socioeconomic factor, not a racial issue.

side- this is normally the part where pro-URM/AA people start saying how no white person would ever trade to be a URM and how the majority can never truly see discrimination, etc, etc....but I'm talking about grades and standardized tests, not life.

2. Is having a diverse, "representative" population of doctors as important as having fully-qualified ones? This argument generally ends with someone saying, "Anyone who made it through pre-reqs and passed the MCAT, graduated med school and passed the boards is qualified in my book." I don't want to get into why that argument sucks, mostly because if you agree with that you probably won't change your mind..... Granted, you might feel that having a diverse population is more important than being "fair" to all the applicants, so it's a question of values I suppose.

3. Lastly, what about the URM's that are competitive applicants and have to deal with this stigma their entire lives? Furthermore, does having "solutions" like the URM box really fix our societal problems? Will minorities become dependent on these advantages? (I'm not trying to sound like a prick, but I'm a psychology major and am well aware of the honest pros and cons of having things "handed" to you.) Does AA/URM status merely mask the real problems, allowing us to dismiss things like how aweful our public education system is?...after all, look at all the Black/Hispanic/etc doctors! :laugh:

Anyway, I hope that someday I have to explain to my kids how crazy America used to be and how when Daddy was young, schools actually weighted student applications based on the color of people's skin...can you believe that? My ending point; if you don't see that something is fundamentally wrong here you are either a) ignorant or b) benefiting from the system.. I certainly don't blame anyone for doing this, I wish I had a box to check, but at least have the balls to admit how stupid it is...

this needs quoted for emphasis :thumbup:

Stuff like AA just keeps racism alive...and I don't mean that in the sense of "reverse racism" necessarily. I mean it in the sense that if you keep making race an issue it will always be an issue. Huh???

:idea:
Ex:
1) Stuff like AA pisses off a lot of people
2) those people form opinions, those opinions are generally not rosy
3) their opinions get passed down to friends and family
4) the cycle continues

(this cycle goes both ways and can obviously be applied to more than just AA, just an example :p )

I'm not complaining. I just think we should call a spade a spade. URMs are shown preferential treatment in the admissions process. Thats all I'm trying to say.

yes they are given preferential treatment and are prob. put in a different pile. I feel it is wrong to say they are the only ones that get in with "low stats" b/c if you look on mdapps there are many non-urms with "low stats that still get in. Also, some of the URMS have stats that match the school they got into...

this needs quoted for emphasis :thumbup:

Stuff like AA just keeps racism alive...and I don't mean that in the sense of "reverse racism" necessarily. I mean it in the sense that if you keep making race an issue it will always be an issue. Huh???

:idea:
Ex:
1) Stuff like AA pisses off a lot of people
2) those people form opinions, those opinions are generally not rosy
3) their opinions get passed down to friends and family
4) the cycle continues

(this cycle goes both ways and can obviously be applied to more than just AA, just an example :p )

Who cares what others think?? most of the URMS that got this far did so b/c they ignored what others said...

I understand the point you are trying to make about this URM "boogeyman," and while he certainly does exist, I agree that this example is often overused in the URM debate. However, the whole point of offering a URM status is to give some sort of preferrential treatment to underrepresented minorities. If people weren't compensated for poorer stats by checking the box, then why would they do so, in fact, why would there be a box?


You can't argue that URMs with slighly lower stats don't benefit from having URM status. And, I feel that any advantage given based on racial grounds, no matter how small, is wrong. These debates are so stupid...but since I've started...

1. Anyone who has made it to a large university and has completed a bachelor's degree is no longer in a racially disadvantaged position. (Unless you actively experience discrimination in school, which, at least in California, is pretty unheard of, especially in large science classes with upwards of 200 students) In other words, there is no reason why race itself can justify a poor GPA or MCAT. Granted, I can see how coming from a poor background might make the transition to college harder...but this is a socioeconomic factor, not a racial issue.

side- this is normally the part where pro-URM/AA people start saying how no white person would ever trade to be a URM and how the majority can never truly see discrimination, etc, etc....but I'm talking about grades and standardized tests, not life.

2. Is having a diverse, "representative" population of doctors as important as having fully-qualified ones? This argument generally ends with someone saying, "Anyone who made it through pre-reqs and passed the MCAT, graduated med school and passed the boards is qualified in my book." I don't want to get into why that argument sucks, mostly because if you agree with that you probably won't change your mind..... Granted, you might feel that having a diverse population is more important than being "fair" to all the applicants, so it's a question of values I suppose.

3. Lastly, what about the URM's that are competitive applicants and have to deal with this stigma their entire lives? Furthermore, does having "solutions" like the URM box really fix our societal problems? Will minorities become dependent on these advantages? (I'm not trying to sound like a prick, but I'm a psychology major and am well aware of the honest pros and cons of having things "handed" to you.) Does AA/URM status merely mask the real problems, allowing us to dismiss things like how aweful our public education system is?...after all, look at all the Black/Hispanic/etc doctors! :laugh:

Anyway, I hope that someday I have to explain to my kids how crazy America used to be and how when Daddy was young, schools actually weighted student applications based on the color of people's skin...can you believe that? My ending point; if you don't see that something is fundamentally wrong here you are either a) ignorant or b) benefiting from the system.. I certainly don't blame anyone for doing this, I wish I had a box to check, but at least have the balls to admit how stupid it is...


Wow!!! based on this post and ones below it, you almost sound bitter.

1. the purpose for actively recruiting URM's is to account for exactly what they are in healthcare: "underrepresented". Application numbers speak for themselves. Why is it that so few URM's are applying to med school relative to ORM's? The gap has to be filled somewhere.

2. How likely is it that you will be willing to travel to Compton to King Drew to practice? It is definitely not likely...why is that? (I'll let you and the others answer that question).

3. why dont you want to get into your second argument. I would like to hear what you have to say b/c "qualified", to me, is not solely defined by stats achieved as an undergrad. One can great stats that "qualify" him/her for med school, but that means **** when we are talking about the overall abilities. I think you are kind of limiting people to numbers. So for that reason please explain your second argument.

4. The stigma to which you refer is much more deeply rooted in overall societal issues than in some rinky dink attempt by AMA to incre. URM presence in healthcare....but like you in your other post, I will not discuss that argument right now.

5. AA/URM...whatever you want to call it, does not come close to rectifying or even masking the problems that exist within our society. I was a psyc major too in undergrad. You have to consider the situation when you apply specific theories.


We can get into theories about stereotyped threat, perceived treats, diffused responsibility, etc...., but it would not be of any help.

I challenge you to come up with what you think a fair application system would involve and consider.

Present something...I will be happy to read it and find all the loopholes within your system.

yes they are given preferential treatment and are prob. put in a different pile. I feel it is wrong to say they are the only ones that get in with "low stats" b/c if you look on mdapps there are many non-urms with "low stats that still get in. Also, some of the URMS have stats that match the school they got into...
Agreed. I'm sure there are URM applicants who have excellent stats that are very much in line with the averages at the schools that admit them.

But people on this thread have been trying to claim that URM status does not amount to preferntial treatment, and thats just plain wrong. I'm not even discussing my opinions on AA...I'm just pointing out some very obvious notions that people seem to be having some trouble grasping.

Who cares what others think?? most of the URMS that got this far did so b/c they ignored what others said...


I'm not saying you should care what others think. I'm just shedding some light on an example as to why their will always be racism. It's nothing real profound, I know. IMO, things like AA encourage racist thinking both ways.

Damn, every posts in here is FREAKIN LONG!! :mad:
We like pictures and crayon drawings. :meanie:

I'm not saying you should care what others think. I'm just shedding some light on an example as to why their will always be racism. It's nothing real profound, I know. IMO, things like AA encourage racist thinking both ways.


hmmm...that says alot about us as humans doesn't it?

As far as Ricemans post is concerned: I agree, its important to educate physcians who will work in underserved areas. Which is why I think that any systems of preferential admissions in place should be based exclusively on socioeconmic status rather than race. Recruit students from poor, underserved areas, give them preferential treatment in the admissions procees, offer them scholarships to help finance their educations...I think that would be great. But singling out particular racial and ethnic groups, as if they alone have monopolized the concept of discrimination? That I dont agree with. At least let all disadvantaged applicants apply on equal footing.

hmmm...that says alot about us as humans doesn't it?

Yea it really does (not in a sarcastic sense). I mean if you look throughout history, humans have always had/pursued a way to differentiate between one another. If people tried to live equally it eventually failed one way or another. If it isn't race it's class, it's religion, it's physical traits, etc. It's always something. Makes one wonder if something like racism can ever ceast to exist or if it would just transform into another method of discrimination. :o


PS: my statement also suggests that after midnight my grammar goes to hell..."their" etc. :laugh: o well u get the idea

As far as Ricemans post is concerned: I agree, its important to educate physcians who will work in underserved areas. Which is why I think that any systems of preferential admissions in place should be based exclusively on socioeconmic status rather than race. Recruit students from poor, underserved areas, give them preferential treatment in the admissions procees, offer them scholarships to help finance their educations...I think that would be great. But singling out particular racial and ethnic groups, as if they alone have monopolized the concept of discrimination? That I dont agree with. At least let all disadvantaged applicants apply on equal footing.


I think it has been proven that URMs, regardless of socio-economic status tend to serve their people.

Yea it really does (not in a sarcastic sense). I mean if you look throughout history, humans have always had/pursued a way to differentiate between one another. If people tried to live equally it eventually failed one way or another. If it isn't race it's class, it's religion, it's physical traits, etc. It's always something. Makes one wonder if something like racism can ever ceast to exist or if it would just transform into another method of discrimination. :o


PS: my statement also suggests that after midnight my grammar goes to hell..."their" etc. :laugh: o well u get the idea


completely agree!

I think it has been proven that URMs, regardless of socio-economic status tend to serve their people.
Sure, but that doesnt change the fact that I dont think the system should be based on race. I'm sure if you look at people from disadvantaged backgrounds in general you'd notice a similar trend.

Sure, but that doesnt change the fact that I dont think the system should be based on race. I'm sure if you look at people from disadvantaged backgrounds in general you'd notice a similar trend.
does it bother you that only 1000 black people get in every year w/ preferential treatment?? would you be bothered if you knew that only 600 would get in w/o it??

Once again, I am reminded of this slogan. =P

Once again, I am reminded of this slogan. =P


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I find it entertaining that no affirmative action advocate is willing to account for URMs with 3.45's and 29 MCATs getting into Harvard.

Sure, the notion of a nation of ethnically diverse nation of doctors is noble and all, but such a state of affairs is futile. Ortho2006, ironically in his argument for affirmative action, claims that 6543 URM applicants and a whopping 30821 non-URM applicants applied in 2005 (under his "Black + all others = URM; Asian + White = ORM (Non-URM)" assumption). There's going to be disproportionately more non-URM doctors in the end anyway. What gap?

"How likely is it that you will be willing to travel to Compton to King Drew to practice? It is definitely not likely...why is that? (I'll let you and the others answer that question)."

I'll answer your question with another question. How likely is it that a URM, who allegedly came out of such an area in the first place, be able to afford paying undergrad tuition, textbooks, test preparation and application fees/interview expenses (along with other miscellaneous living expenses), medical school, spend a few years in residency, become a practicioner in what is generally the highest paid career in the nation (medicine), only to come back in the slums which made him/her "disadvantaged" in the first place? I doubt that any doctor, or anyone who has been through an equally as grueling a process, would revel in coming back to the slums. I personally don't like getting robbed (because I'm a 'rich' doctor) or becoming a victim in gang warfare, especially after investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in my education.

And besides, being a URM doesn't automatically mean that you come from a place like Compton. In fact, I'm sure that this ignorant assumption is viewed as an insult by many URMs. If any consideration should be given, it should be based on socioeconomic factors alone.

Once again, I am reminded of this slogan. =P
thank you :)

Once again, I am reminded of this slogan. =P
OH NO!! :eek: . You did it pewl. Now people will start arguing about retarded people and how many of them get "special" treatment and get into medical school with low stats. :rolleyes: :laugh:
It's helping me as we speak. ;)

I find it entertaining that no affirmative action advocate is willing to account for URMs with 3.45's and 29 MCATs getting into Harvard.

Sure, the notion of a nation of ethnically diverse nation of doctors is noble and all, but such a state of affairs is futile. Ortho2006, ironically in his argument for affirmative action, claims that 6543 URM applicants and a whopping 30821 non-URM applicants applied in 2005 (under his "Black + all others = URM; Asian + White = ORM (Non-URM)" assumption). There's going to be disproportionately more non-URM doctors in the end anyway. What gap?

"How likely is it that you will be willing to travel to Compton to King Drew to practice? It is definitely not likely...why is that? (I'll let you and the others answer that question)."

I'll answer your question with another question. How likely is it that a URM, who allegedly came out of such an area in the first place, be able to afford paying undergrad tuition, textbooks, test preparation and application fees/interview expenses (along with other miscellaneous living expenses), medical school, spend a few years in residency, become a practicioner in what is generally the highest paid career in the nation (medicine), only to come back in the slums which made him/her "disadvantaged" in the first place? I doubt that any doctor, or anyone who has been through an equally as grueling a process, would revel in coming back to the slums. I personally don't like getting robbed (because I'm a 'rich' doctor) or becoming a victim in gang warfare, especially after investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in my education.

And besides, being a URM doesn't automatically mean that you come from a place like Compton. In fact, I'm sure that this ignorant assumption is viewed as an insult by many URMs. If any consideration should be given, it should be based on socioeconomic factors alone.


did you see my post where I listed 3 non urms who got into hopkins with similar stats?? what is your responce to that??

OH NO!! :eek: . You did it pewl. Now people will start arguing about retarded people and how many of them get "special" treatment and get into medical school with low stats. :rolleyes: :laugh:
It's helping me as we speak. ;)
Haha...well, we need physicians to serve the mentally handicapped...how else are we going to fulfill that need unless we recruit from specifically within that community? :P

Haha...well, we need physicians to serve the mentally handicapped...how else are we going to fulfill that need unless we recruit from specifically within that community? :P

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh now I see why they gave you a boost...

I find it entertaining that no affirmative action advocate is willing to account for URMs with 3.45's and 29 MCATs getting into Harvard.

Sure, the notion of a nation of ethnically diverse nation of doctors is noble and all, but such a state of affairs is futile. Ortho2006, ironically in his argument for affirmative action, claims that 6543 URM applicants and a whopping 30821 non-URM applicants applied in 2005 (under his "Black + all others = URM; Asian + White = ORM (Non-URM)" assumption). There's going to be disproportionately more non-URM doctors in the end anyway. What gap?

"How likely is it that you will be willing to travel to Compton to King Drew to practice? It is definitely not likely...why is that? (I'll let you and the others answer that question)."

I'll answer your question with another question. How likely is it that a URM, who allegedly came out of such an area in the first place, be able to afford paying undergrad tuition, textbooks, test preparation and application fees/interview expenses (along with other miscellaneous living expenses), medical school, spend a few years in residency, become a practicioner in what is generally the highest paid career in the nation (medicine), only to come back in the slums which made him/her "disadvantaged" in the first place? I doubt that any doctor, or anyone who has been through an equally as grueling a process, would revel in coming back to the slums. I personally don't like getting robbed (because I'm a 'rich' doctor) or becoming a victim in gang warfare, especially after investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in my education.

And besides, being a URM doesn't automatically mean that you come from a place like Compton. In fact, I'm sure that this ignorant assumption is viewed as an insult by many URMs. If any consideration should be given, it should be based on socioeconomic factors alone.


here is the point, regardeless of whether or not you view what I said as ignorant (I dont quite understand the personal attacks): You find a higher percentage of URM's in these areas that you find of ORM's.

You would be surprised by the number of URM's who are actually willing to work in these neighborhoods, although they are fully aware that they will not be compensated as highly (and will still have a signif amt of debt for a longer period of time).

Being that I did not grow up in the hood (and am an afr. amer), I guess I should take offense to my own statement, right?

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh now I see why they gave you a boost...

Awwww...sweetness, I didnt get any boosts. No prep schools, no legacies, no ancestors who came over on the Mayflower. In fact, I'm the child of a former refugee. I'm pretty confident my family and I earned everything we have...but nice try though :thumbup:

Awwww...sweetness, I didnt get any boosts. No prep schools, no legacies, no ancestors who came over on the Mayflower. In fact, I'm the child of former refugees. I'm pretty confident my family and I earned everything we have...but nice try though :thumbup:

i was joking ;)

I find it entertaining that no affirmative action advocate is willing to account for URMs with 3.45's and 29 MCATs getting into Harvard.

Sure, the notion of a nation of ethnically diverse nation of doctors is noble and all, but such a state of affairs is futile. Ortho2006, ironically in his argument for affirmative action, claims that 6543 URM applicants and a whopping 30821 non-URM applicants applied in 2005 (under his "Black + all others = URM; Asian + White = ORM (Non-URM)" assumption). There's going to be disproportionately more non-URM doctors in the end anyway. What gap?

"How likely is it that you will be willing to travel to Compton to King Drew to practice? It is definitely not likely...why is that? (I'll let you and the others answer that question)."

I'll answer your question with another question. How likely is it that a URM, who allegedly came out of such an area in the first place, be able to afford paying undergrad tuition, textbooks, test preparation and application fees/interview expenses (along with other miscellaneous living expenses), medical school, spend a few years in residency, become a practicioner in what is generally the highest paid career in the nation (medicine), only to come back in the slums which made him/her "disadvantaged" in the first place? I doubt that any doctor, or anyone who has been through an equally as grueling a process, would revel in coming back to the slums. I personally don't like getting robbed (because I'm a 'rich' doctor) or becoming a victim in gang warfare, especially after investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in my education.

And besides, being a URM doesn't automatically mean that you come from a place like Compton. In fact, I'm sure that this ignorant assumption is viewed as an insult by many URMs. If any consideration should be given, it should be based on socioeconomic factors alone.

You know i never said that URM's were travelling back to the hood: So I guess my statement was not so ignorant...maybe your interpretation of it was...hmmmmm :rolleyes:

does it bother you that only 1000 black people get in every year w/ preferential treatment?? would you be bothered if you knew that only 600 would get in w/o it??
No it doesn't bother me. Not in the least. It should be their responsibility to improve these numbers, not mine. Again, I'm not going to give up my seat at Harvard for a URM with a 3.45 GPA and 29 MCAT (with wonderful extracurriculars, personal statement, and etcetera, I'm sure).

I personally have a few URM friends who use their URM status as an excuse for their poor scores/GPAs, and consequently don't feel like they have to work so hard for an acceptance. I'm going to propose a radical theory here: take away the crutch, level the playing field, kill the excuses, and maybe these friends of mine will realize that they have to work just as hard as everyone else. Although they are my friends, I hope that some of them don't get into medical school, because with that kind of work ethic at the age of 21, I seriously question their potential to become "competent" doctors. And I'm sure that this phenomenon is not only apparent at my university, but elsewhere as well. I'm not trying to make any generalizations here, but this seems to be the trend among my URM friends, at least.

Wow!!! based on this post and ones below it, you almost sound bitter.

Well, I'm glad someone read my post. Now, allow me to retort:

1. the purpose for actively recruiting URM's is to account for exactly what they are in healthcare: "underrepresented". Application numbers speak for themselves. Why is it that so few URM's are applying to med school relative to ORM's? The gap has to be filled somewhere.

This is that value distinction I spoke of before. Why do people feel the need to have every race represented equally? Who cares, why is this a factor? Should we have every religion represented equally? How about favorite color, I think we need to make sure every patient gets a doctor who has their same preference for ice cream flavors...

2. How likely is it that you will be willing to travel to Compton to King Drew to practice? It is definitely not likely...why is that? (I'll let you and the others answer that question).


I go to SC, so I travel to "compton" every day...I am the only white person on the bus every day...

If doctors aren't willing to practice in crappy areas then we need to either a) fix the system so that they are reasonable compensated for, or b) come to the realization that quality healthcare, like everything else in life, might require $. Once again, this is an economic issue, not a racial one.

But let's pretend it is, who guaruntees that Black doctors will practice in black neighborhoods? Do they sign some kind of special oath while all the whites and asians take the hippocratic one? Maybe it would be more pragmatic to screen for philanthropic values than skin colors....And what about all the white people who live in "compton"?


3. why dont you want to get into your second argument. I would like to hear what you have to say b/c "qualified", to me, is not solely defined by stats achieved as an undergrad. One can great stats that "qualify" him/her for med school, but that means **** when we are talking about the overall abilities. I think you are kind of limiting people to numbers. So for that reason please explain your second argument.


Here's a start: "qualified", to me, is better defined by undergrad stats than skin color. If you accept the fact that black students and white students both have an equal chance on their exams, then it follows that it is only fair to reward the students who have proved themselves. To accept this argument, of course, you have to understand that having dark skin does not justify poor(er) academic performance.

4. The stigma to which you refer is much more deeply rooted in overall societal issues than in some rinky dink attempt by AMA to incre. URM presence in healthcare....but like you in your other post, I will not discuss that argument right now.


You're talking about racism. I was talking about the stigma associated with minority physicians..which has nothing to do with your point and everything to do with the AMA/med schools. Talk to most people above the age of 50 and they will tell you than in their generation, black doctors were poorly qualified compared to "ORM" students. I'm not arguing that this is true, but the stigma itself is very real, and, as this conversation shows, will not go away anytime soon.

5. AA/URM...whatever you want to call it, does not come close to rectifying or even masking the problems that exist within our society. I was a psyc major too in undergrad. You have to consider the situation when you apply specific theories.


Derr :confused:

We can get into theories about stereotyped threat, perceived treats, diffused responsibility, etc...., but it would not be of any help.

I challenge you to come up with what you think a fair application system would involve and consider.

A fair system would negate skin color and take into consideration socioeconomic backgrounds/hardships, responsibilities, unique experiences, etc....legitimate factors that might add to your character and possibly detract from your GPA/stats. To me this seems like a 100% error-proof method without any URM "boogymen". Of course, we might not have our full representation of minorities...god forbid :rolleyes:

or maybe you (Virgil) were refering to the ignorant assumption you made in the restatement of that question?

need sleep

good night to all

No it doesn't bother me. Not in the least. It should be their responsibility to improve these numbers, not mine. Again, I'm not going to give up my seat at Harvard for a URM with a 3.45 GPA and 29 MCAT (with wonderful extracurriculars, personal statement, and etcetera, I'm sure).

I personally have a few URM friends who use their URM status as an excuse for their poor scores/GPAs, and consequently don't feel like they have to work so hard for an acceptance. I'm going to propose a radical theory here: take away the crutch, level the playing field, kill the excuses, and maybe these friends of mine will realize that they have to work just as hard as everyone else. Although they are my friends, I hope that some of them don't get into medical school, because with that kind of work ethic at the age of 21, I seriously question their potential to become "competent" doctors. And I'm sure that this phenomenon is not only apparent at my university, but elsewhere as well. I'm not trying to make any generalizations here, but this seems to be the trend among my URM friends, at least.

Mine too. I have one friend who pledged in a black frat last semester and was skipping class all the time and drinking every night, and now when he gets into med school and I don't (hypothetically), should I be happy for him? I'm tired of excuses.

You know i never said that URM's were travelling back to the hood: So I guess my statement was not so ignorant...maybe your interpretation of it was...hmmmmm :rolleyes:
I don't see how that can be interpreted in any other way. It is obvious that you support affirmative action so I'm assuming that you were spouting out the old "nobody but URMs will serve in Compton!" reasoning. If this was not the intent of your ambiguous statement, then I apologize for calling you "ignorant." Big hugs! :D

or maybe you (Virgil) were refering to the ignorant assumption you made in the restatement of that question?

need sleep

good night to all
You're absolutely right, riceman, because I'm sure that everyone who lives in Compton can easily afford undergraduate tuition, textbooks, medical school, etc., etc., etc. Good night.

Actually, before I bid you a good night, I think I'll make another pretty ignorant assumption. You're probably an URM applicant. I'll go ahead and admit that it is "ignorant" of me to assume that, as I really don't know much about you except that you fervently argue for affirmative action, but all people who argue for it are URMs anyway, right? Well, actually, I'm not that ignorant.

But hey, please correct me if I'm wrong. Good night!

Mine too. I have one friend who pledged in a black frat last semester and was skipping class all the time and drinking every night, and now when he gets into med school and I don't (hypothetically), should I be happy for him?

no, and if fate is against him he will be rejected... The universe has a way of balancing things out...

I'm getting a vision...wait...by George, I think I've come up with a foolproof and "fair" system: abolish affirmative action! No loopholes, absolutely no preferential treatment, and get this--everybody gets a fair chance! Who would've thunk it??

I'm getting a vision...wait...by George, I think I've come up with a foolproof and "fair" system: abolish affirmative action! No loopholes, absolutely no preferential treatment, and get this--everybody gets a fair chance! Who would've thunk it??
Amen.
THE END.

I'm getting a vision...wait...by George, I think I've come up with a foolproof and "fair" system: abolish affirmative action! No loopholes, absolutely no preferential treatment, and get this--everybody gets a fair chance! Who would've thunk it??

I'd agree. Take the money that's been spent in legal fights against AA and spend it on improving the elementary and high school education in heavily minority areas. I'd be for that.

I'm getting a vision...wait...by George, I think I've come up with a foolproof and "fair" system: everybody gets a fair chance! Who would've thunk it??
Wake up, wake up, wake up, WAKE UP!!!!!!

Things are NEVER going to be fair for EVERONE in this country!!!!!!! To think otherwise is pretty naive.

I hope everyone in this thread watches the cable series "Black White" where 2 families one black the other white, "change places" with each other and live as the opposite race.

PS- When was the last time a white man was chained and dragged behind a Ford truck by 2 black men? :confused:

PS- When was the last time a white man was chained and dragged behind a Ford truck by 2 black men? :confused:
Probably never, but I know of some white individuals who have been knifed or beaten for straying to the wrong side of town at night.... In any case, that doesn't have anything to do with medical school admissions. I feel confident that the dean of Harvard doesn't have that kind of racist attitude, so the black applicant should be able to get a fair shake, just not a better one than the white applicants of the same stats. Noone is denying that racism still exists in this country...

Wake up, wake up, wake up, WAKE UP!!!!!!

Things are NEVER going to be fair for EVERONE in this country!!!!!!! To think otherwise is pretty naive.

I hope everyone in this thread watches the cable series "Black White" where 2 families one black the other white, "change places" with each other and live as the opposite race.

PS- When was the last time a white man was chained and dragged behind a Ford truck by 2 black men? :confused:

That's just it. Most people maintain a naive view of things. Unfortunately, you cannot expect them to understand the depth of discrepancies...why?...it is obvious (so obvious it does not need to be stated).

I don't see how that can be interpreted in any other way. It is obvious that you support affirmative action so I'm assuming that you were spouting out the old "nobody but URMs will serve in Compton!" reasoning. If this was not the intent of your ambiguous statement, then I apologize for calling you "ignorant." Big hugs! :D

hmmm what was ambiguous about it? You should not infer from that statement that I was suggesting URM's mostly GO BACK (as if they came from) to these communities.

My father is a physician now in an underserved community...and and what I see supports my opinion.

but I know of some white individuals who have been knifed or beaten for straying to the wrong side of town at night.... ...
I know of some individuals that were lynched for straying on the wrong side of town at night. What's your point?


In any case, that doesn't have anything to do with medical school admissions. ...
No, this thread is about people who want to "front" as URM's when it suits them, then be "white" for all other purposes in life. :rolleyes:


I feel confident that the dean of Harvard doesn't have that kind of racist attitude, so the black applicant should be able to get a fair shake, just not a better one than the white applicants of the same stats. Noone is denying that racism still exists in this country...
You made 2 completely different arguments with this statement. The reason URM status is considered in the admission process is BECAUSE racism still exists.

I find these types of threads really perplexing. If the Harvard Lacrosse team captian gets a leg up (which athletes do from what I've heard) on admission to Harvard then it's all good. If Miss Massachusetts has an "advantage" than that's cool too. If the daughter of a family full of Harvard graduates gets speical consideration, no one gives a dam and the reason is clear. All these advantages, like so many others like SES favor white folks. I've personally seen maybe 2 black lacrosse players in my entire life, the overwhelming majority of most Miss America preliminary pageants contestants are white, and I don't need to check Harvard yearbooks to see that there are far more white faces than brown ones (excluding asians). But when some white folks feel "excluded" from having an advantage greater than that which they already have by the nature of the color of THEIR skin, everybodys panties get bunched up.

Please people, given me a freakin break and free the wedgies! :laugh:

As for me......this is all I have to say on this matter........

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
Galatians 5:13-14


.......regardless of sex, age, creed, race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, shape, size, color, ANYTHING! :love: :love: :love:

Well, I'm glad someone read my post. Now, allow me to retort:



This is that value distinction I spoke of before. Why do people feel the need to have every race represented equally? Who cares, why is this a factor? Should we have every religion represented equally? How about favorite color, I think we need to make sure every patient gets a doctor who has their same preference for ice cream flavors...




I go to SC, so I travel to "compton" every day...I am the only white person on the bus every day...

If doctors aren't willing to practice in crappy areas then we need to either a) fix the system so that they are reasonable compensated for, or b) come to the realization that quality healthcare, like everything else in life, might require $. Once again, this is an economic issue, not a racial one.

But let's pretend it is, who guaruntees that Black doctors will practice in black neighborhoods? Do they sign some kind of special oath while all the whites and asians take the hippocratic one? Maybe it would be more pragmatic to screen for philanthropic values than skin colors....And what about all the white people who live in "compton"?


Here's a start: "qualified", to me, is better defined by undergrad stats than skin color. If you accept the fact that black students and white students both have an equal chance on their exams, then it follows that it is only fair to reward the students who have proved themselves. To accept this argument, of course, you have to understand that having dark skin does not justify poor(er) academic performance.


You're talking about racism. I was talking about the stigma associated with minority physicians..which has nothing to do with your point and everything to do with the AMA/med schools. Talk to most people above the age of 50 and they will tell you than in their generation, black doctors were poorly qualified compared to "ORM" students. I'm not arguing that this is true, but the stigma itself is very real, and, as this conversation shows, will not go away anytime soon.




Derr :confused:



A fair system would negate skin color and take into consideration socioeconomic backgrounds/hardships, responsibilities, unique experiences, etc....legitimate factors that might add to your character and possibly detract from your GPA/stats. To me this seems like a 100% error-proof method without any URM "boogymen". Of course, we might not have our full representation of minorities...god forbid :rolleyes:

1. I thought you were a psychology major (you have taken social psyc right). You should know the benefit of having docs represented from particular races.

2. Just b/c you travel 1 mi on a bus to a gated campus for class does not suggest that would be willing to practice in such a neighbor hood...that school is not nicknamed University of Spoiled Children for an illegitimate reason...not to suggest that you are spoiled...but rather to point out the type of people who attend (and by the way...just for the sake of being correct...you dont travel through compton...USC is not in compton)

"b) come to the realization that quality healthcare, like everything else in life, might require $. Once again, this is an economic issue, not a racial one.

But let's pretend it is, who guaruntees that Black doctors will practice in black neighborhoods? Do they sign some kind of special oath while all the whites and asians take the hippocratic one? Maybe it would be more pragmatic to screen for philanthropic values than skin colors....And what about all the white people who live in "compton"?"

3. We can come to your realization in b) and then suffer the consequences (where did you grow up and what high school did you attend?...if you are from socal, that is), both economic and social. Healthcare is and always will be a social and economic issue...there is no way to get around that

4. No one guarantees that afr. amer. docs will practice in afr. amer. neighborhoods, but the likelihood of them doing so is much higher for them to do it than someone coming from an affluent, predominantly white.

Do you think that just because docs state the hippocratic oath they will follow a pursuit in medicine that focuses on the greater good of the human population. Sure they will be serving people, but many of them are, more so, pursuing personal gains.

5. Do you think that that many white people live in compton? Dont kid yourself

"You're talking about racism. I was talking about the stigma associated with minority physicians..which has nothing to do with your point and everything to do with the AMA/med schools. Talk to most people above the age of 50 and they will tell you than in their generation, black doctors were poorly qualified compared to "ORM" students. I'm not arguing that this is true, but the stigma itself is very real, and, as this conversation shows, will not go away anytime soon."

6. My dad is a physician. He attended USC for med school and earned his way in (so did the other 3 afr. amer docs in his class). Though there was no actual aa back then there was still a stigma that existed. Although they felt like they belonged b/c they had earned their spot, many of their white counterparts felt as if they did not...not b/c of their stats...but for the simple fact that they were black...."if they got in it must be b/c of some program" They received no handout and yet assumptions were made. I hate to say it but people will always make assumptions about other races.

You should go to USC's medical campus and check out the classes from back in the 70's 60's 50's etc....Tell me what you see!

"A fair system would negate skin color and take into consideration socioeconomic backgrounds/hardships, responsibilities, unique experiences, etc....legitimate factors that might add to your character and possibly detract from your GPA/stats. To me this seems like a 100% error-proof method without any URM "boogymen". Of course, we might not have our full representation of minorities...god forbid"

7. Ok so here you have some good aspects to your system but the problem is that they are already considered (but of course you will negate that just for the sake of making it seem like this system is so much more unfair than it really is...you will see when you get into med school just how this system does not assist URM's that much):

"responsibilities, unique experiences, etc....legitimate factors that might add to your character and possibly detract from your GPA/stats"...all of that is fine and dandy but they are already considered.

Here is the problem with socioeconomic status: It is very easy for people to falsely alter their presented income so that it seems as if they are facing more hardships than they actually are facing...This system is used in undergrad admissions decisions (it also is used to determine scholarship/fin aid) all the time. There are people who teach parents (and students) how to take advantage of the loopholes in this system...I know b/c the College Board is still conducting investigations on this issue (My mom works in education...LAUSD..etc...and has been contacted by the College Board).



go trojans (I grew up in a trojan family: my brother, sister, mom, and dad all attended for some schooling...I also used to go to all the home and some away football games)

Oh yeah...I grew up in Ladera Heights (the west end of it)...but I will establishing a practice in an underserved community for my people and for non-english speaking patients.

Oh yeah...one more thing: I have a friend from Rice who graduated with a 3.55 and scored a 28 on his MCAT. He was accepted into Harvard Med school in 2003. By your standards he is not qualified, right?...Well now he is in the 5% of his class...go figure! Is he still not qualified to be a doctor?

hmmm what was ambiguous about it? You should not infer from that statement that I was suggesting URM's mostly GO BACK (as if they came from) to these communities.

My father is a physician now in an underserved community...and and what I see supports my opinion.

My uncle (an Asian) is also a physician in an underserved Afr. American community. His patient population is almost 95% black. In fact, most of his patients like him so much they left black doctors in the area to go see him. There are also many other Asians/Indians working in the area, but no white doctors.

So it's hard for me to believe when someone says ORMs won't work in underserved areas because I'm seeing it happen. Also, it's hard for me to believe when someone says minorities will always prefer doctors of their ethnicity because that's exactly the opposite of what I'm seeing.

I'