I just wanted to start a thread where students looking for information on how to get into Oto could get some advice from students who have been accepted or from current residents.

I will add my own advice when I get the time.

I was wondering if there were any thoughts on how it looks to PDs if you are a graduate of an accelerated BS/MD program. I feel that it can go either way...they can either think you are very dedicated or they can think you are immature. Any thoughts on how this will affect my applying to oto would be great.
Also, I know that the reputation of your medical school plays a role in applying. My program is with a no-longer top 50 medical school. When reviewing my application, will they look at the reputation of my medical school or of my accelerated program, which is very difficult to gain admission into.

Thanx

I was wondering if there were any thoughts on how it looks to PDs if you are a graduate of an accelerated BS/MD program. I feel that it can go either way...they can either think you are very dedicated or they can think you are immature. Any thoughts on how this will affect my applying to oto would be great.
Also, I know that the reputation of your medical school plays a role in applying. My program is with a no-longer top 50 medical school. When reviewing my application, will they look at the reputation of my medical school or of my accelerated program, which is very difficult to gain admission into.

Thanx

I don't think that school reputation matters as much as other factors. No matter where you are from, you can have a good application, with good grades, USMLE score, and research. As far as accelerated programs, I don't think it matters much.

Here is an old post that I wrote. I'll add more later:


My take on getting into oto: getting in is dependant on USMLE, grades, and research. Everybody's LOR's look pretty similar (unless you are a convict, or, conversely, a saint), and the Dean's letter is just a summation of your performance at med school. Even if you know you are not going into academics, you must have research to get in. Good research will get you farther than grades or board scores, IMO.

I matched in oto last year. Here’s my advice:

For M1s and M2s:
I think it’s important to do well in your preclinical classes, but your grades in the first 2 years are probably not that vital in the grand scheme of things. If you’re generally above the mean, you should be in fine shape. Step 1, on the other hand, may be the most important factor in getting oto interviews (along with your 3rd year grades). Obviously shoot for as high a score as possible. The mean for matched applicants has remained fairly steady around 235 in recent years. If you score lower, say <225-230, it’s not the end of the world, but you will need to bolster your application in other areas.
Anyone who becomes interested in ENT during the M1 year also has a huge golden opportunity to A) get some significant research done and B) make contacts in the department at your school during the summer between 1st and 2nd year. This is the last time you can fully concentrate on a research project until 4th year. For those without oto residency programs at their schools, it is certainly feasible to do some research at another institution that does.

For M3s:
Grades become more important now. You should try to get A’s/honors in as many rotations as possible, especially medicine and surgery. To get good evaluations, you MUST be a normal, likeable human being. If the residents and attendings you work with like you, they will almost always write you good evals. It’s really that simple.
If you haven’t already met with the chairman/PD of your oto department, I would do this by the spring of your 3rd year. If you are exceptionally motivated, you might even be able to get some work done on a research project during easier rotations (i.e. psych, neuro, family). Now that ENT is regular match, it is not necessary to do an oto sub-I during your 3rd year anymore.

For M4s:
You should do a month of ENT at your own institution as early as possible. Work hard and make friends with everyone- attendings, residents, clinic nurses, secretaries, etc. I would also recommend doing 1 away rotation unless you are dead set on staying at your own program. I did an away rotation and I think it gave me a lot more insight into what I really wanted out of a program. (I rotated at a big-name northeast program and was not very happy there.) I don’t think there is much point in doing more than one away.
If you have a marginal Step 1 score, take Step 2 and ace it early in your 4th year.
Last year we were limited to 3 letters of recommendation, I don’t know if that is still true or not. One letter must be from the oto chairman at your school. I would suggest that you get all your letters from ENT attendings. The field of otolaryngology is small enough that your letter writers will be personally known by many of the PDs that will be reading them. It is also much more feasible to get a letter from a big-name attending on your away rotation now that oto is regular match. I know you got along great with your medicine/psych/peds/family med attending and they will write you the most glowing letter ever, but a solid but slightly less glowing letter from a big-name oto attending will carry much more weight.
As far as applying, I would aim for about 40 programs if you are an average “competitive applicant.” If you are a superstar with 260 boards, publications, junior AOA, I would still apply to at least 30 programs. If you are a marginal applicant, 60-70 programs is not unreasonable. The competition is really tough out there.
The best source about where to apply and what programs are good/bad are current residents at your school. Organize a bar night for 4th years and residents to discuss programs and the application process. Most residents are more than happy to do this. I chose the programs I applied to almost entirely from discussions with residents. You can also find out about programs from sites like this one and otomatch, but the info may or may not be reliable.
During interview season, do 2-3 months of research rotations. It will free up your schedule for traveling. It is also fine if you do not have an oto publication yet during interviews. Most people don’t. DO NOT schedule hard rotations during interviews.
For interviews (and applying in general), buy the book “101 biggest mistakes made by residency applicants,” which gives excellent advice. Go out and buy yourself a new suit and new dress shoes. Guys, shave or at least neatly trim your shaggy facial hair and get a haircut. Superficial crap like this makes a difference.
Programs also want to train academic otolaryngologists, whether they say it explicitly or not. This is especially true for the Michigans/Harvards/U-Washingtons of the world. Do not say that you want to go into private practice. I don’t recommend that you lie, but at least come up with several aspects of academic medicine that you find attractive and be able to talk intelligently about them.
Go to as many resident dinners and social events as you can and don’t make an ass of yourself. These are the best way to find out if you are a good fit for a program and to get the lowdown. I had a great time interviewing: 99% of applicants are awesome people and you will keep running into the same people over and over again at different interviews.
After that, all that’s left is to make your list and try to not have a nervous breakdown the week before the match. I can’t imagine having to go to the whole match day ceremony and wait until noon to find out. Last year, the dean called at 7 in the AM and let me know that I had matched and where I was going.


So… in summary, it’s a long and sometimes nerve-wracking process, but it’s worth it in the end. I recently did my month of ENT during my intern year and had a great time. It really is the best specialty (no offense to other physicians of the world…). Good luck to all current and future applicants.

awesome explanation. thanks
...50+ applications is a little bit scary though. oh well

Great explanation!

As for the BA/MD thing, could anyone even tell if you were in one of those if you didn't bring it up? I'm not sure it matters in the grand scheme of things. (Besides, I think those programs let you skip 1-2 years at most anyway. It would be pretty hard to tell the difference between a 26 year old and a 25 year old IMO)

I was wondering if there were any thoughts on how it looks to PDs if you are a graduate of an accelerated BS/MD program. I feel that it can go either way...they can either think you are very dedicated or they can think you are immature. Any thoughts on how this will affect my applying to oto would be great.
Also, I know that the reputation of your medical school plays a role in applying. My program is with a no-longer top 50 medical school. When reviewing my application, will they look at the reputation of my medical school or of my accelerated program, which is very difficult to gain admission into.

Thanx

Out of curiousity, what program is that?

If I had to guess, I would say Penn State's program with Jefferson Medical College. Although I think JMC dropped out of the top 50 a while back.

I have a question and im curious as to what the more experienced members have to say:

I am currently a third year with a step 1 score in the 240's and JAOA status who switched from ortho to ENT this year. I have 2 ortho pubs and 4 ortho abstracts. I am trying to now work on a small ENT Head and Neck Oncology research project. I am curious as to you feel about this "change of heart" and what programs are realistic for me seeing as how I lack a lot of ENT experience.

Thanks.

I have a question and im curious as to what the more experienced members have to say:

I am currently a third year with a step 1 score in the 240's and JAOA status who switched from ortho to ENT this year. I have 2 ortho pubs and 4 ortho abstracts. I am trying to now work on a small ENT Head and Neck Oncology research project. I am curious as to you feel about this "change of heart" and what programs are realistic for me seeing as how I lack a lot of ENT experience.

Thanks.

You should be fine. JAOA, good step I, clearly interested in research-->good candidate.

The Throat: hello, i'm a new member here and would like your advice on applying for an oto residency. I have been struggling between neurosurgery and oto for a while now, and have only recently made up my mind for oto. I really would like to know how competitive I am for residency: Junior AOA, >260 Step I, going to a top 50 school, one poster publication in neurosurgery, one paper in general surgery. I don't have any oto research but am looking into it currently. I am thinking about doing one away rotation (in Cinci).
Any advice for making myself more attractive?
Thanks,
otowannabe29

I finished an ENT residency in 2005 and am currently in the USAF finishing a 3 yr commitment with them. I was the administrative chief my year and was also a component of the interviewing process all 4 years of my residency so I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to get in.

I came from a respected program (probably not top 10) but mine was fairly competitive. I have some advice as far as the interviewing goes. First, from the moment you arrive at the school to the time you leave you are being evaluated. The secretary, program coordinator, and residents you meet all will have an impression of you. These "informal" people are not part of the selection committee and strong positive opinions will probably not affect things too much so there's no need to butt kiss, but they can have a strong influence in the negative. Do not treat the secretary poorly, do not act like your too good for whomever your with, do not act like the program is not up to your caliber. Most programs these days should be selling themselves to you, if you get an interview, you've already sold them that you're good enough to get in. Now it's all about personality match. If you're a genius and you are a jackass to anyone in the department, you're not going to be ranked as high as the guy not too far below you who smiles and is polite.

The famous rhinologist, Dr. Kennedy, said, "It's hard not to like an otolaryngologist." He's right. If you're hard to like, you're not going to get ranked high. Numbers matter most to get into the interview. Your Dean's letter means nothing. USMLE step I is crucial. Step II not so big but if there's a big difference between the steps, be prepared to explain it--for the positive or negative. Research is meaning more and more, but a published paper only means you're a proactive person. If you have more on your CV showing a proactive life then research is not as crucial. For example, I played college golf and in med school won the state am, but my research was limited to one clinical study I put together myself without much faculty sponsorship. It was never published, but the schools that talked to me about it loved that I did it on my own--I just didn't jump into someone's lab to do some micropipetting [sp?]. They also loved that I golfed so much. If you do something and you're remotely good at it, make sure they know in the interview. I can tell you it is infinitely more interesting to the interviewer to go over something different than what rat ear you tested OAE's on most recently.

Take that with a grain of salt because some interviewers are assigned "roles." Good cop/bad cop sort of things. This wasn't the case at my school, but I interviewed at some like that and I'm currently on clinical faculty at a program that does that. If you get "hard-arse, research guy" he might not want to hear about how you threw a 30yd TD pass in high school.

I have a bunch more to say but I've got to go for now. Let me know if you're even interested in knowing more and I'll try to answer your questions.

Later.

It is really great for us MSIV's to hear from someone like you, resxn.

I would love to hear more along any lines, whatever you think up to add.

One specific question, how are women evaluated differently at interviews? After all, we can't personality-match the way that one of the boyz can. I was told by a female IM attending that the way for a woman to ace a residency interview is to get the faculty to see her as their daughter. What do you think?

Sonnet, thanks for the question. I think that women can be just as interesting in an interview as can the guys. In fact, in a lot of ways women come across much more interesting and here's why. If you do something cool outside of medicine, most of the people you will interview are going to be guys. They will not have heard a dozen stories like yours whereas they will from many of the men (sports, research, similar hobbies). Now that women are so much more prevalent in ENT, it is no longer a "stigma" or minority to be a female applicant. Actually in the last 3/4 incoming classes, 2/3 of the residents were women in my program. I think it's simply because women seem more together and are more interesting in their interview overall.

I'm not sure how the daughter thing would work in a surgical specialty. Independence and proactive personalities dominate the field so if by daughter she meant to seem somehow submissive, I don't think that's the best role. On the other hand, one thing I definitely would say is DO NOT be hyper-aggressive. I think a lot of attendings were turned off by a female applicant who acted like she had a chip on her shoulder. This includes the female attendings.

To be completely honest, those people who are polite, who smile, who are witty and can laugh appropriately (not too much) are the people who get ranked high. You have to know everyone who is interviewing looks great on paper. In an interview, rarely do people care about rehashing what's on the paper--even if they ask you about stuff there. They just want to see if you are a person they can spend the day with in the OR or in the clinic. The Chairman has a slightly different perspective, as do some of the more "famous" attendings. They often approach the interview looking for the person who will one day contribute to the field. I know some programs take pride (Iowa and Johns Hopkins for example) in churning out future chairmen/women.

One thing that does not make any difference in our program was sending thank you notes back. It didn't change ranking worth jack. People were ranked well before the note got to the department. Usually people were ranked the evening after the interviewing was done while everyone was still fresh in memory. Saying you want to go to the program you're at, saying that you know this is the program for you can help. But you need to be truthful about it too. You'd be suprised at how easy it is to spot a liar or just an ingratiator. Be honest and pleasant and your interview will go well.

Sorry!

One thing that does not make any difference in our program was sending thank you notes back. It didn't change ranking worth jack. People were ranked well before the note got to the department. Usually people were ranked the evening after the interviewing was done while everyone was still fresh in memory.

I'll echo this statement as well.

We had three interview dates, and while the non-interviewing faculty and residents took the medical students out for dinner, we sat down and ranked them on a numeric scale. Two piles: the ranked and the ones who would not be ranked. After all interview dates were completed, we compared our rankings and had our list. So, the thank you letters were nice, but they didn't affect anything -- postively or negatively.

Hi

I am a new member and would like to seek some info on applying to an ENT residency in the US. I am a medical graduate from India and won a Rhodes Scholarship to read for a DPhil in Physiology at Oxford, concentrating on development of central auditory mechanisms with cochlear implants. Does all this help in any manner? I’ve heard like it’s close to impossible to match for Otolaryngology in the US.

I am happy to let you know you are wrong. My husband and I studied in Oxford and then came over to the US. He studied at St. Johns Medical School in Bangalore then went to Oxford.
So, if we did it so can YOU.

Specially coming from Oxford and hopefully you had outstanding scores in everything you should be fine.
Have you done your USMLE 1, 2 and 3 yet? Did you do your TOEFL and your ECFMG? Once you got all that then apply and if you need some more info send me a private message. Good Luck

Thought my response in another thread is appropriate to post here. Link is as follows:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=4537454&postcount=9

Hi, I would like your thoughts about ENT matching non-trads. I'm a 1st year at Northwestern and spent 7 years as a software engineer/manager before going to med school. I'm married and have a few small boys who are both under 3.

I'm quite interested in ENT for a variety of reasons yet I fear that due to the highly competitive nature of this subspeciality ENT residency directors might overlook some of my subjective advantages (namely maturity) in favor of the more quantitative measures like grades, exam scores, and research.

Realistically I don't think I could score over the 90% on the boards (and will likely see an 85%); I probably won't be AOA. I should do well overall during my clerkships, and I'm considering doing some research but it will most likely be a chart review project, not a big basic science project.

For what it's worth, I had good success getting into medical school and I'm sure my non-trad background worked to my benefit. However I'm under an impression (without any real evidence) that interviewing for ENT residency programs really comes down to objective metrics, while matching at these residencies is probably more of a personality match.

Do ENT programs consider a non-trad's history as a major factor or does it really just come down to numbers because it's so bloody difficult to match?

Thanks.

Non trads are in the same boat everyone else is. Northwestern has some solid oto guys and getting a good letters from a few of them will help. My advice is to make up for average grades or scores with research. Try to make time to do basic science research for a month or two. Even if you don't get published, it will set you apart from the crowds of people with chart reviews.

I know this is commonly asked and I should have some idea, but I would like to hear this forum's opinions on how to strengthen my chances (ps if i don't have a shot, please say so, thanks). My story goes like this, I was interested in Peds/Allergy Immunology but now during my surgery rotation realized that I like procedures more than I thought I would. It's pretty late in the game, know a few oto residents, have yet to meet the chair.

Pre clinical grades were high pass/pass

Step 1 score was 224

No research ever

Worked at polio camp in India for 1 month and AIDS clinic in Africa for 2 weeks

Clinical grades have been Pass in OB, Honors in Peds and Medicine (both have "glowing" evals), high pass in everything else (all with good evals). Currently in surgery, 1st month went very well, this month is going ok, probably on the border for honors/high pass.

Won't be able to take Step 2 CK early (1st 4 months of 4th year are peds sub I, ENT sub I, peds cardiology, ortho). Will take it early november and am confident that I will improve on my step 1 score. I feel that I can work my butt off in ENT and get a good LOR. Might not be of superstar status, but I'm generally well liked and easy/enjoyable to work with.

Probably will not be AOA

Thanks for your input in advance

No research ever


Not having any research will set you apart from 80-90% of the other candidates....and not in a good way.

You need research to be competitive.

I would try to get in touch with your oto program and ask them how you can get involved in any research that might be going on.

Any IMG's going for ENT?
or trying at least?
do I stand a chance while competing with AMG's with research exp., good USMLE and outstanding LOR's?
As most IMG's I have no research exp. and I don't think that grades,rank or LOR's from non US med. schools are taken seriously.
All I have is ambition and great USMLE's (I: 289/99 II:283/99 III:240/98)
What do u think?
should I go ahead and apply? wait for next match and try to do some research? or just go for my 2'nd option which is a much less competitive residency?
appreciate ur input

Any IMG's going for ENT?
or trying at least?
do I stand a chance while competing with AMG's with research exp., good USMLE and outstanding LOR's?
As most IMG's I have no research exp. and I don't think that grades,rank or LOR's from non US med. schools are taken seriously.
All I have is ambition and great USMLE's (I: 289/99 II:283/99 III:240/98)
What do u think?
should I go ahead and apply? wait for next match and try to do some research? or just go for my 2'nd option which is a much less competitive residency?
appreciate ur input

you got a 289 on step 1? if you aren't lying, apply to any field you want

you got a 289 on step 1? if you aren't lying, apply to any field you want

he's lying.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=4775062#post4775062

Why should I lie?
to brag about about my scores?!! I donno anybody here and nobody knows me. I even rarely post. There is no point in lying.
exmike... I can't see how from my post in Feb. asking about some books u arrive at the conclusion that I'm lying??..u have to think in a more logical way. for the sake of your patients at least.
I'm honestly looking for sincere advice from someone who was in a similar situation or someone who knows about the selection process in oto programs.

Why should I lie?
to brag about about my scores?!! I donno anybody here and nobody knows me. I even rarely post. There is no point in lying.
exmike... I can't see how from my post in Feb. asking about some books u arrive at the conclusion that I'm lying??..u have to think in a more logical way. for the sake of your patients at least.
I'm honestly looking for sincere advice from someone who was in a similar situation or someone who knows about the selection process in oto programs.

I think that the reason why some folks are thinking that you are lying is that most of us have never heard of a step I score of 289. My year at Baylor Med the highest score was in the 260's. The two digit score of 99 correlated to pretty much everyone in 250's and 260's. I have never heard of anyone, even on this board, with a score in the 280's.

So, scores aside, you need research. With oto in the regular match, you still have time to do some. Chart review, case reports, anything. It gives you something to talk about intelligently during the interview. Summary: no research--wait a year. + can get research started--apply.

Thank you Throat
at least someone responded.
I actually have a couple of interesting cases that can be published as case reports. Unfortunately they r not oto cases. Something is better than nothing I guess.
Suppose I publish these ,how many prog. should I apply to ?
Can anything else be done to strengthen my application? appreciate suggestions.
I know these are boring q's, but sorry I'm preoccupied with them 24/7 these days.

btw ... 270 is arround 2 SD above the mean ---> 2.2% get higher than that . that's 220 out of 10,000 only.
290--3 sd--11 out of 10000

Thank you Throat
at least someone responded.
I actually have a couple of interesting cases that can be published as case reports. Unfortunately they r not oto cases. Something is better than nothing I guess.
Suppose I publish these ,how many prog. should I apply to ?
Can anything else be done to strengthen my application? appreciate suggestions.
I know these are boring q's, but sorry I'm preoccupied with them 24/7 these days.

btw ... 270 is arround 2 SD above the mean ---> 2.2% get higher than that . that's 220 out of 10,000 only.
290--3 sd--11 out of 10000

Would publish what you can get started on and try to get in on some oto research as soon as possible. Would apply to at least 30 to 40 programs. With your USMLE scores, you should get at least a few interviews, even being IMG. BUT, that just gets you to the interview process. Once there, USMLE means almost nothing. I would not mention your score or studying for the USMLE in your PS or at the interview process at all. Programs know that good testing scores do not translate to being a good resident.

Thank u for the advice.
I will give a try this year. nothing to lose except money ;)

Thank you Throat
at least someone responded.
I actually have a couple of interesting cases that can be published as case reports. Unfortunately they r not oto cases. Something is better than nothing I guess.
Suppose I publish these ,how many prog. should I apply to ?
Can anything else be done to strengthen my application? appreciate suggestions.
I know these are boring q's, but sorry I'm preoccupied with them 24/7 these days.

btw ... 270 is arround 2 SD above the mean ---> 2.2% get higher than that . that's 220 out of 10,000 only.
290--3 sd--11 out of 10000

Thats assuming a perfectly normal distribution, which the Step 1 is NOT. If you look at "charting the outcomes" published by the AAMC

http://www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf

you will see that out of all specialties included in the regular match, less than 10 applicants had a score between 270-280. If you look at orthopedics, only one applicant had >270. ZERO applicants had a score greater than 280 in ANY specialty. So unless somehow there are hundreds of applicants with >270 NOT in the regular match (thus ignoring plastics, derm, rads, etc), it is virtually impossible that 1) anyone scored above a 280, and 2) there are hundreds of people who scored in the 270's.

Sorry, I really would like to believe you, but it just seems so implausible. Combined with the fact that in February you hadn't taken any of the steps yet and were collecting books, but four months later you have all three scores. :confused:

My dean said the highest score on step 1 is a 280. So I'd rather call shennannigans on a supposed 289 than on my dean. :rolleyes:

Hey Mike, funny seeing you here. :cool:

Thats assuming a perfectly normal distribution, which the Step 1 is NOT. If you look at "charting the outcomes" published by the AAMC

http://www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf

you will see that out of all specialties included in the regular match, less than 10 applicants had a score between
.
.
.

This discussion is getting raelly silly.
anyway...it just reveals your morbid jealousy.
My dean said the highest score on step 1 is a 280.So I'd rather call shennannigans on a supposed 289 than on my dean.
u better ask him/her again
.......

thanks, you guys, for all the invaluable advice. i have a question regarding research.

so, i've been working on a voice research project this summer (between M1 & M2). i might be able to publish, i might not - we'll see how the data hashes out. anyway, back in undergrad (3 years ago, at this point), i did a lot of work on a laryngeal physio basic science project. fast-forward to now, and it's being published (i'll be an author, unfortunately not first author, though). my question is: is this something that can legitimately contribute to my overall application when it comes time to apply to residency? or, is it going to be brushed aside since the work was done before medical school?

i ask because, of the research i've done, this is definitely the project i am most passionate about. i think i'd much rather discuss it than the project i worked on this summer (although, don't get me wrong, i liked that project a lot too). and, i know i made a good contribution, since that lab is now using the protocol i made up myself and they're getting some good data out of it (hence this paper).

anyway, sorry i went on and on. i'd appreciate what you guys have to say.

thanks again :thumbup:

First, any published paper, especially in the field of ENT, is a quality paper for your application. Particularly, original research. All it shows if published before starting med school is that you were into ENT early and still like it. A good sign.

Second, the more enthusiasm you have for your research the better. As long as you're not obnoxious about it, that enthusiasm will come through both on paper and, more importantly, in person.

Is it too hard to match as a foreing student?

I just noticed that residency apps want your college grades. Are they at all important? I'm an MS-1 who would like to be competitive for ENT. Despite sub-par grades and only decent MCAT score, I managed to get into a top 10 med school. I thought I now had a "clean slate" so to speak. So will my lousy college grades hurt me in a match?

(Sorry for the neuroticism, but I sense that is also to some degree a requirement for getting into a competitive residency.)

I do not know which residency application you happened upon, but the one I filled out had nothing to do with undergrad grades. In fact you do not need to put in any of your grades at all. That is taken care of by your medical school.

Check out http://www.aamc.org/students/eras/resources/start.htm go to application worksheet (CAF) and download and look through. That is the application.

Also, I just finished my interview process and never was I asked about undergrad grades either. People only care about medical school.

I do not know which residency application you happened upon, but the one I filled out had nothing to do with undergrad grades. In fact you do not need to put in any of your grades at all. That is taken care of by your medical school.

Check out http://www.aamc.org/students/eras/resources/start.htm go to application worksheet (CAF) and download and look through. That is the application.

Also, I just finished my interview process and never was I asked about undergrad grades either. People only care about medical school.

OH good, that makes me feel better. Thanks for answering my question.

The reason this came up is because I was reading another thread about scrambling in the SF match. So I was looking at all the vacancies postings for child neuro, neurosurgery, optho, etc, and all the vacancies listed requested both college and medical school transcripts. I'm glad to hear that's not how ERAS rolls.

Thanks again!

I'm an MSII looking into ENT. Studied physics in undergrad. Two research experiences but no publications. I've got good pre-clinical grades so far (Honors/High-pass), but I have no idea about AOA, yet. Step I is coming in June, so that will tell me more about where I stand.

My question is what do ENT residencies think about students who do research for a year if they don't get in the first time? If you keep on knocking, will they eventually let you in. I've always felt that if you keep on working hard and trying, you'll eventually get what you're after. But, with an application process as competitive as ENT, I don't know if that is true.

I guess I'm worried about working towards something that may be out of my reach (depending on scores etc.). Any thoughts?

I'm an MSII looking into ENT. Studied physics in undergrad. Two research experiences but no publications. I've got good pre-clinical grades so far (Honors/High-pass), but I have no idea about AOA, yet. Step I is coming in June, so that will tell me more about where I stand.

My question is what do ENT residencies think about students who do research for a year if they don't get in the first time? If you keep on knocking, will they eventually let you in. I've always felt that if you keep on working hard and trying, you'll eventually get what you're after. But, with an application process as competitive as ENT, I don't know if that is true.

I guess I'm worried about working towards something that may be out of my reach (depending on scores etc.). Any thoughts?
It depends. If you applied broadly the first time and didn't get in, then your chances really wont be that much greater after doing one year of research - after all, there is a reason you didnt get in. If you interviewed at 8+ or so places but didnt get in, consider reflecting on your interview strategy. Fact it, reapplicants have a <50% chance of getting in because usually there is something wrong the first time around that cant be remedied in a year.

Granted, if you had like a 187 step 1 and all pass, you might still be able to get in if you publish a seminal paper in Laryngoscope or something after five years in a lab, but at some point you got to figure there are better options than applying over and over again right?

And finally, dont be so hard on yourself. Why prepare for failure before you've even finished MS2?

Medpop,

This is the advice I was given by the program director at my school. He said that if you do not get in the first time and you want to do research you really have to have stuff in the pipeline from the day you found out you didn't match (March) and be extremely productive before interview season starts (Early October).

His rationale was that if you do research after your fourth year the programs will already know that you didn't match once which is a red flag. Though the applicant sees it as a year of research, the programs are basically wanting to know how you have enhanced your application since the last time. With only 3-4 months from not matching to reapplying it is really hard to get stuff submitted, nevertheless even published.

Though I wish it was actually easier for people to get in who show the dedication, it may be more advantageous to do a year of research if you are interested. That is what I did and it really helped me in the process to not only show that I was more than just the numbers on my application and to make contacts in the field.

Good luck,
CT

Medpop,

This is the advice I was given by the program director at my school. He said that if you do not get in the first time and you want to do research you really have to have stuff in the pipeline from the day you found out you didn't match (March) and be extremely productive before interview season starts (Early October).

His rationale was that if you do research after your fourth year the programs will already know that you didn't match once which is a red flag. Though the applicant sees it as a year of research, the programs are basically wanting to know how you have enhanced your application since the last time. With only 3-4 months from not matching to reapplying it is really hard to get stuff submitted, nevertheless even published.

Though I wish it was actually easier for people to get in who show the dedication, it may be more advantageous to do a year of research if you are interested. That is what I did and it really helped me in the process to not only show that I was more than just the numbers on my application and to make contacts in the field.

Good luck,
CT

Thanks exmike and CT. I appreciate the thoughts.

I had not thought about how closely the match and the following application season are to one another.

If you feel your scores are not good enough for ENT, but you have no doubt this is the specialty you absolutely must do, take a year off for research before you start 4th year. This way you not only get a full year of research work in and have an excellent shot of publishing, you also have a chance to be constantly in the clinic or the OR with attendings. I would recommend you do research at an ENT department, so you can get to know the faculties better and get strong letters. Do not wait after you didn't match.

I know it's tough to see all your friends graduate, but your sacrifice will most likely pay off. Did I mention you can sleep in for a whole year with most research positions?

If you feel your scores are not good enough for ENT, but you have no doubt this is the specialty you absolutely must do, take a year off for research before you start 4th year. This way you not only get a full year of research work in and have an excellent shot of publishing, you also have a chance to be constantly in the clinic or the OR with attendings. I would recommend you do research at an ENT department, so you can get to know the faculties better and get strong letters. Do not wait after you didn't match.

I know it's tough to see all your friends graduate, but your sacrifice will most likely pay off. Did I mention you can sleep in for a whole year with most research positions?

Great idea, Bigpwn. I'll keep that in mind.

I shadowed an ENT resident last week, and I got to scrub in on a tympanoplasty. It was amazing. Who knew the temporalis fascia could double as an eardrum. I'll never look at the tissue behind my ear the same. It could restore my hearing someday.

If you feel your scores are not good enough for ENT, but you have no doubt this is the specialty you absolutely must do, take a year off for research before you start 4th year. This way you not only get a full year of research work in and have an excellent shot of publishing, you also have a chance to be constantly in the clinic or the OR with attendings. I would recommend you do research at an ENT department, so you can get to know the faculties better and get strong letters. Do not wait after you didn't match.

I know it's tough to see all your friends graduate, but your sacrifice will most likely pay off. Did I mention you can sleep in for a whole year with most research positions?

I'm new to this thread but have a few questions for anyone who matched OTO or is now an OTO resident...

the above advice sounds legit although i'm 1.5 months from starting my 4th year and starting to get nervous about what i'm looking like on paper as an applicant. i'm definitely OTO material as far as commitment, likability, work ethic, confidence that THIS is my field... but moderate USMLE (hope to rock step 2 and take it early), moderate class rank, A LOT of extracirriculars that make me stand out as an individual, 1 great ENT letter (and 6+wks of rotation time in ENT) and 1 great g surg letter (plus others) so far.

OH and did i mention i'm a DO (as i read more and more about AMA ENT programs) in an MD world...

so i'm starting to get real.


1. should i (this late in the game) take a year off to do hard-core research at somewhere like the House Ear Institute in LA while making sure i rock step 2?

2. do i have a chance in ANY allopathic ent programs across the country (strictly considering the DO thing) if i were an ideal applicant?

3. does anyone know of any DOs on staff at any allopathic affliated OTO programs? i'm willing to move almost anywhere...

thanks for the help.

curliedoo:

If you want to go into ENT, apply. Get all of the requisite stuff done that we have discussed before (research, etc) and see what happens. Worst case, you're out <$1000 for the applications. If you interview at allopathic programs, I think the general consensus is that most interviewees are considered nearly equal and at that point it is a personality fit (I've seen some applicants do some bizarre things in interviews).

As far as the MD/DO thing - it's something that you cannot change. We have not interviewed DOs in our program, and there are several DO schools within a few hours of here. There are no DOs on our faculty, or nearby allopathic ENT programs either (that I know of). Our faculty makes the decision on who to interview, and I really don't know how much of a bias there is.

There are several DO OTO/HNS/FP training programs - I think they have been discussed in other threads. These will allow you to sit the osteopathic boards (of course) and once completed, your privileging will be the same as any allopathic graduate and a reflection on the breadth of training you received.

I realize the MD/DO bias sucks if one is a DO applying to MD programs - but look at it from the 4th year MD students standpoint... They CANNOT apply to DO programs... period.

Also, taking a year out for hard-core research does not guarantee a publication, either. Especially if you go into the lab.

Personally, I'd just do the best I can, apply broadly to allopathic and osteopathic programs and see how the interviews fall. If you get few or don't match, consider options at that point instead of focusing on aspects you cannot change, nor have control over.

Good luck.

I'm new to this thread but have a few questions for anyone who matched OTO or is now an OTO resident...

the above advice sounds legit although i'm 1.5 months from starting my 4th year and starting to get nervous about what i'm looking like on paper as an applicant. i'm definitely OTO material as far as commitment, likability, work ethic, confidence that THIS is my field... but moderate USMLE (hope to rock step 2 and take it early), moderate class rank, A LOT of extracirriculars that make me stand out as an individual, 1 great ENT letter (and 6+wks of rotation time in ENT) and 1 great g surg letter (plus others) so far.

OH and did i mention i'm a DO (as i read more and more about AMA ENT programs) in an MD world...

so i'm starting to get real.


1. should i (this late in the game) take a year off to do hard-core research at somewhere like the House Ear Institute in LA while making sure i rock step 2?

2. do i have a chance in ANY allopathic ent programs across the country (strictly considering the DO thing) if i were an ideal applicant?

3. does anyone know of any DOs on staff at any allopathic affliated OTO programs? i'm willing to move almost anywhere...

thanks for the help.

I cannot give you any advice on the DO part either. I have heard 1 DO matched into an allopathic ENT program 4 years ago from another DO doing anesthesiology here. I don't know his stats or which program he matched into.

I did take a year off for research, and I matched into my top choice (ranked 15 spots). I had below average scores but great letters, presentations at the academy and high quality publications.

During that year off, I also worked in the clinic and scrubbed into the OR. I also met with my program chair/faculty adviser every other week to talk about my progress and continuously showed myself around the department. I had a great relationship with other residents, and they all spoke highly of me which went into my rec letter. You should understand ENT departments are small (average 2 residents), so faculty have to know that the person they are getting will get along with other residents and faculties. They can get a sense from working with you, rec letters, and the interview.

So if you want to do research for a year, you really need to do it between 3rd and 4th for it to be effective. I started research the July following my 3rd year, but I didn't submit my papers until next September. If you want to do research after not matching (which is in March), you will have to start applying for research position and reapply for Match in September. Realistically you are not going to publish anything in 6 months.

Again a year off is a huge commitment because it doesn't guarantee anything. However, the way I thought about it is that if I didn't do everything I possibly could, I would regret it if I failed to match. I really, really loved ENT. It all comes down to how badly you want it.

Hope this helps. It's kind of late, so I may have grammar and spelling errors. Please forgive me :laugh:.

Sorry to beat a topic to death, but if you want to match at a competitive program, how important is it to have all clinical honors 3rd year? I have a fairly high board score (>250) and honors in surgery and medicine, but so far the rest of my rotations have only been high passes. I know I probably surround neurotic, but with all these warnings about the competitiveness of ENT (even a stickied thread about it), I'm wondering how much this would hurt me overall. Any attendings here care to comment on how it would be perceived to honor the difficult rotations but not honor the ones perceived to be "easier?"

Sorry to beat a topic to death, but if you want to match at a competitive program, how important is it to have all clinical honors 3rd year? I have a fairly high board score (>250) and honors in surgery and medicine, but so far the rest of my rotations have only been high passes. I know I probably surround neurotic, but with all these warnings about the competitiveness of ENT (even a stickied thread about it), I'm wondering how much this would hurt me overall. Any attendings here care to comment on how it would be perceived to honor the difficult rotations but not honor the ones perceived to be "easier?"

The programs with which I was affiliated cared a lot about grades on Surgery. They cared a little bit about medicine. They didn't care about the others. However, bad scores even on psych said something about the student and stood out. Likewise, acing things across the board also stood out. I doubt that your clinical grades will hurt you. To be honest they're not going to help that much either--those are pretty typical of the ENT applicant pool.

Sorry to beat a topic to death, but if you want to match at a competitive program, how important is it to have all clinical honors 3rd year? I have a fairly high board score (>250) and honors in surgery and medicine, but so far the rest of my rotations have only been high passes. I know I probably surround neurotic, but with all these warnings about the competitiveness of ENT (even a stickied thread about it), I'm wondering how much this would hurt me overall. Any attendings here care to comment on how it would be perceived to honor the difficult rotations but not honor the ones perceived to be "easier?"

if you're gunning for the top programs you'll probably need to stand out some other way (extensive research, etc.) because all those kids will have 260+/AOA you're applying with.

Thanks for the advice guys. Good to hear from an attending who's been part of the whole process before. I guess to be more specific, I have >260 on the step I, am not junior AOA (due to mix of mix of honors/HP in preclinical years), and 1 publication (not as the lead author) in addition to the grades mentioned above, so pretty much the best thing I have going for me at this point is just my Step I. I'm not really gunning for top academic programs so much as I am gunning for an extremely competitive geographic region (which coincidentally has some elite programs, but I'd be more than willing to go to a "lesser" program for the sake of geography).

I'm just concerned I'll appear to be a student who only works hard in things he's interested in (which rexsn sort of alluded to). I'm guessing that ultimately where I rank on a match list will depend more on my interview/personality match with a program than anything else. Thanks for the advice, rexsn.

I'm guessing that ultimately where I rank on a match list will depend more on my interview/personality match with a program than anything else.

Nothing truer has ever been said by someone with a reasonable CV.

So I am thinking about either orthopedics or ent as a first choice with gen surg as a back up. My board scores are on the low end of average S1: 231 and my clinical grades are very mediocre 1H surg 2HP (med and peds) and the rest passes. I completed a PhD in an orthopedics basic science lab with about six or so pubs.

I am considering ENT because I really like the clinical field and the research possibilities are great. From what my med school dean tells me third year grades trump everything, and the likelihood of matching is poor. She thinks I aught to focus more on gen surg programs where she believes I have a fighting chance of matching.

Anyone care to offer me some candid perspective.

I think your PhD and pubs can potentially make up for your grades if you play the cards right. Now I do not know if programs will ask why you don't have ENT publications, but they may see that you are a motivated individual who is truly into research and actually gets thing done (like 6 pubs). About step 1, the avg is >235, so half the people are below this value. You should also talk to your home institution's ENT department. And when you do so, try to focus on your positives. An Honors in surgery and a HP in medicine may be enough for programs. Good luck!

Quick question: I've heard that some programs download applications from ERAS the first day they are available (September 1). I'm curious as to how this impacts your research experiences. For instance, if you're working on a few projects but none of them will be submitted by Sept 1, does that mean these programs will not know about your research until (if) you interview at them? Is it important to have all your projects submitted by September so that on your ERAS you can mark those projects as submitted for abstracts?

Some programs offer interviews in early October, with most offering from what I remember in late October/early November (some even wait longer, though most offers should go out by Thanksgiving). If a program decides on interviews early and your projects are not in ERAS, you are correct in that the programs will not know about your research until you interview and mention it.

Many programs had a cover sheet for each interviewee with the board score, honors grades, and research papers. So yes, I would say it's important to have as many projects as possible submitted by September (some programs even used the presence of a publication as a cutoff).

.

Hmm.. thanks Catalyst, good to know. That's sort of what I figured. I guess I better get crackin!

hey, i've been reading forum for a little while now because I really want to go into ENT. I need some advice on research.

I'm currently a 3rd yr med student at a not-well-known med school that is not top 40. Also, my school/"associated hospital" has no ENT residency program. I'm in the top quarter of my class and got a 237 on step 1. I'm currently working on getting honors in medicine and surg.

I have found a research project at my school that is being started by the Chief of the ENT department here, but it seems to be moving slowly and if lucky I'll only be able to write one paper (possible two) from it.

I know right now I'm sort of in the middle of the pack to the low end of the pack of ENT applicants and trying to figure out the best way to improve my chances. Basically, I've been looking at doing year-long research programs, such as Doris Duke, in ENT programs between 3rd & 4th year to improve my chances and research part of my application.

Are these year-long research progams something I should completely try to get into to have a reasonable chance to match into ENT?

Thanks.

Me again, just wondering what some of the better places to start with to compile info on ENT residencies, such as research, good training, excelling in certain aspects (H/N, vocals, oto/neuro, pedi), cases, hours, etc.

I know of this site and otomatch, are there any other good places to start with?

I'm currently a 3rd yr med student at a not-well-known med school that is not top 40. Also, my school/"associated hospital" has no ENT residency program. I'm in the top quarter of my class and got a 237 on step 1. I'm currently working on getting honors in medicine and surg.

Are these year-long research progams something I should completely try to get into to have a reasonable chance to match into ENT?

Thanks.

Those aren't bad stats and if you add a good research project you aren't in a bad position. I wouldn't even think about post-grad research at this point. Focus instead on research projects while in med school and working hard on developing relationships at your school.

I'm in a similar position and asked the same questions on this thread. I really struggled with the decision for about a month and had many discussions with my wife and friends. I've decided not to take a year off.

Hi all. Knowing for sure that ENT is what I want for my future and having applied to most of the ENT programs all over the US (except for military and California positions) I would like to ask for advice on applying for preliminary/categorical surgery as a second choice...would that help me to match next year? Also do all surgery programs do a ENT rotation in PY1?

Little background: I am a IMG, did 1 1/2 years in research in Augusta, Georgia, got 1 publication, good LORs, graduated in 2002. Most of my last MD years were focused on ENT as well as my last work in my home country.

Hi all. Knowing for sure that ENT is what I want for my future and having applied to most of the ENT programs all over the US (except for military and California positions) I would like to ask for advice on applying for preliminary/categorical surgery as a second choice...would that help me to match next year? Also do all surgery programs do a ENT rotation in PY1?

Little background: I am a IMG, did 1 1/2 years in research in Augusta, Georgia, got 1 publication, good LORs, graduated in 2002. Most of my last MD years were focused on ENT as well as my last work in my home country.

cant imagine a reason for cat/prelim gen surg residents to rotate through ent and dont know any that do. OMFS and Plastics do at some programs, for obvious reasons.

Well, thank y for the answer. I just received my step 2 ck score but seems too low for ent...plus i am IMG. I received the advice to go for an easy match now (IM or Family Med) and then try to switch or finish the 1st residency and then try to do a second one in ENT....I am capable of doing both or something else....advice pls.

Why don't you just go for ENT the first time around and then go into the "easy" match if it does not work out. I have also heard of IMG's who got in their home program after working as a research scut monkey for several years.

i'm curious what people think about this...

i will definitely be applying to ent this upcoming year. i did a short ent elective at my school as part of my gen surg rotation. my advisor (ent faculty member) tells me not to bother with a sub-internship at my school because they already know me well enough to write me strong letters (i've been doing research with them for a few years now). i hear that performance on the ent sub-I is a pretty important part of the application, so i'm curious what people think of this. would it be a detriment to me to not rotate at my own program? i am planning on doing an away or two and i think i will try and rotate at our children's hospital. anyway, i appreciate people's input.

congrats to all those who matched! :thumbup:

This all depends on from whom you're getting letters. Surely it sounds like your advisor is behind you. However, if you're also planning on getting one from your Chair you better ask him if you should do the SubI or not at your school. If he says it's not needed, then it's not needed. Use your time elsewhere more effectively. Although, I've been aware of Chairs telling their med studs not to rotate only because they didn't want them around and although they would write a letter, they felt that they weren't a great candidate. Just make sure that you know where you stand.

if you're gunning for the top programs you'll probably need to stand out some other way (extensive research, etc.) because all those kids will have 260+/AOA you're applying with.

Seriously? According to this report from the NRMP only 9 people got >260.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

Seriously? According to this report from the NRMP only 9 people got >260.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

I'd guess it's probably higher than 9 this year with USMLEworld and all these other resources becoming more widespread.

I heard my home program used a cutoff of 250 for interviews and they interviewed 40 people.

I heard my home program used a cutoff of 250 for interviews and they interviewed 40 people.

if that's true, that's really ridiculous. what's your home program?

That sounds really high for a cut off. In all honesty the sad part of that is that your program is missing out on A LOT of really good folks who aren't putting up numbers like that if they are cutting off that high. I tend to think this is more of urban legend passed down to make things seem more competitive than they already are.


We have a cut off in a general sense but in a small field like ENT PD's should try and take the time to see if you might be the right fit for the program in other ways, assuming you have some reasonable level of accomplishment on Step I.


Have hope normal folks out there, the three most awkward people I interviewed last year had the three highest board scores of our pool of interviewees. At the end of the day I want to make sure I can work with you and that you'll pull your weight. I don't particularly care if you're Einstein or not.

so i've noticed that several programs have application deadlines around October 1 and a few even have deadlines earlier than that. my deans office doesn't upload our transcripts to eras until october. you guys think that's going to cause me to miss deadlines? i'm wondering if maybe i should try and see if they'll make an exception for me and get things uploaded earlier. let me know what you think.

so i've noticed that several programs have application deadlines around October 1 and a few even have deadlines earlier than that. my deans office doesn't upload our transcripts to eras until october. you guys think that's going to cause me to miss deadlines? i'm wondering if maybe i should try and see if they'll make an exception for me and get things uploaded earlier. let me know what you think.

The deadline is probably for ERAS submission. Most programs are understanding about dean's letters/transcripts/etc going out later in the fall.

What I can expect with the following stats:

Step 1: 241
Step 2: not taken yet
Grades: Top 1/3 of class. Not AOA. Honors in Medicine. High Pass in Surg... mixture of H and HP's on the rest.
School: US MD school without ENT program
Away rotations: Will be doing a couple
Research: 1 first author case presentation pub (non ent). 2nd author submitted review article (non ent). ENT chart review in progress. Another project planned (ENT).
Personality: Not an issue I hope.
I have a few non-medical talents and accomplishments that may set me apart.

Do I have a realistic shot at ENT?

Do I have a realistic shot at ENT?
Yes- letters and personality will be important.

I have a dilemma in that my school has no ENT department. I'm currently starting my 3rd year, and need to get some research done. I did some psychological research, but that was in undergrad and was never published. How should I go about securing some ENT research opportunities? Do I need to do research externships? Or would research in other areas of medicine (eg cardiology) suffice?

There is a lot of great information on this site, and I thought I'd throw in my two cents. I went to medical school in the midwest where there is a large, established Oto program, did my residency at a well known program on the west coast and am now doing my fellowship. I had below average Step 1 scores (below average for Oto that is) but was senior AOA. I also took a year off in med school for Oto research. The way I look at the process of matching into an Oto residency is in two basic steps:

1) Getting in the door (aka Getting an Interview)
2) Sealing the deal (aka Matching)

Getting in the door
Keep in mind that programs review 200+ applications each year and have to pare that number down to 30-60 depending on the size of the program. Hence the heavy reliance on "objective" measures like Step 1 scores or AOA status. Everyone knows these are imperfect tools but you have to start somewhere. I believe that the following factors can increase your chances of getting an interview; having one or all of these factors will not guarantee an interview but will increase the chances. At the same time, not having one of these attributes doesn't preclude you from getting an interview.

- Step 1 score: Yes, the median score for Oto applicants is higher than the overall median. If you rock the test you look more appealing; if you are below 200 most programs will set your application to the side. In our program Step 2 scores didn't play a huge role, but I suppose it would be helpful if your Step 1 wasn't so great and you improved 15+ points on Step 2. But if you get the same below average score that might look bad.

- AOA status: Not all schools participate in AOA. If you are AOA then great! If not it won't kill you but you should have some other aspect of your application that makes you stand out.

- Visiting/sub-I rotation: Lots of mixed opinions on this one. I probably wouldn't have gotten an interview at my program without doing it so for me it worked out. Take a critical look at the feedback you got from your clinical rotations. If people consistently tell you that you're awesome and they want to you go into their field, chances are good that you will wow the program where you do an away rotation. Most years we matched at least 1 person who had done a visiting rotation with us. But an away rotation can also be a big hurt. There was more than one student who did a rotation with us who looked amazing on paper, but by the end of their first week none of us could stand being around them. The longer you spend with people the more opportunities there are for them to find a reason not to like you. If there is a specific place you want to match, doing a rotation there shows that you are serious about your interest in their program. If you do too many then people wonder what your deal is. See my "tips for a good away rotation" below.

- Research: Taking a year (or more) off to do research clearly demonstrates a serious interest in research and that's a good thing. Even if you did it in another field before you decided on Oto, having the experience can only help your application. After all cell cultures, gels and other basic science are research skills that can be applied to any field. A one-month research elective is a token gesture but nonetheless faculty seem to like seeing these tokens appear on applications. It lends at least a small bit of credibility to your statement that you are interested in research. ALL programs want to hear that you are interested in research. Be prepared to discuss your research; if it's obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about that is very very bad.

- Letters of recommendation: You MUST have at least one letter from an Otolaryngologist. The closer you are to your letter writers the better. My mentor must have written a great letter because I was asked about the vignettes that were apparently in that letter during many of my interviews. Most would agree that you should have a chair's letter. The dean's letter doesn't count for much because everyone knows that they are generic and are basically a summary of all of the positive comments people have left on their evaluations of your performance.

- A good mentor: If there are one or two places you really want an interview, a trusted mentor may pick up the phone and call someone they know there to say why they should interview you. Be a little cautious about broadcasting your interest in other programs in case you may want to stay at your home institution.

Sealing the Deal
You've now hopefully gotten 8-10 interviews; there really isn't any magic in the number but obviously the more interviews you do the better the odds of matching at one of them. At this point it's not as important what your scores or AOA status are. What people are most interested in is figuring out how they'd feel about spending hours upon hours with you over the next 5 years. Will you be a team player? Will you help the attendings produce some publications? Will you be teachable? Will you be pleasant to be around? Will you not kill anyone?

Your goal should be to be memorable in a good way. There may be some interesting thing about your life story, some impressive accomplishment you've achieved, some breakthrough research you did, or people may just remember that you were really fun to talk to.

Interview day:
- Be nice to EVERYONE. This includes the secretaries and residency coordinators who arrange the interview days. If you think you can get away with being a jerk to someone lower down on the chain, think again. That information gets around quick.
- Be ENTHUSIASTIC. Some people come off as being ho-hum about being at their interview. This does not make for a successful interview day. Sometimes I think this impression is formed if people are too quiet; this is unfortunate for people who are shy, but do your best to smile and ask questions.
- Spend time with the residents. Two good reasons - first to see if you like them and want to work with them. Second because of the influence they have on the rank list. Regardless of what they say the residents do influence the list, mostly in terms of the really good or the really bad applicants. Around interview season everyone talks about the applicants, and that's when the stories will come out about the stand-outs.
- Dress (and groom) for the part. As silly as it may seem, people remember these things. You don't want to be "the guy with the shaggy hair or earring" or "the girl with the really short skirt or a lot of makeup."

After the interview:
- Do send a thank you card/note. This will not make or break your application but it's the polite thing to do. And no, you don't have to send one to every single person you met. But if you had a special connection with someone, consider sending them a personal note. They could become your best advocate when it comes time to parse out the list
- Talk to your mentor. Otolaryngology is a small field and people know each other. When a program wants the "real scoop" the PD or other faculty will call someone they know at the applicant's home institution.

Tips for a good away rotation
I'm tired so this will be short. Be a team player. Be willing to help on rounds - changing dressings, removing drains, writing notes, etc. Carry supplies in your pocket. Hold hook in the OR. Don't be rude to a nurse or junior resident then turn around and kiss the attending's you-know-what. Follow the rules of hierarchy - don't try to show up a resident in an effort to score points with the attending. Act in such a way that when you leave the service the residents will wish that the next student was as good as you were. The attendings will ask the residents how a sub-I is doing, and ask what they think of you. If your school doesn't have an Oto department this could be a chance for you to find a research project or a mentor in the field. Don't brag about all the wonderful things you've achieved. People will come to realize how awesome you are without you having to tell them.

Whew! Congrats if you made it to the end of this post. GOOD LUCK with the process. Otolaryngology is an awesome field and the hard work is well worth it.

awesome post TnT thanks!

Do oto programs require step 2 scores? Recommendations on when to take it?

New here :) 3rd year student
I'm *VERY interested in ENT... but I had a disappointing STEP1 score. 230s. This site is very informative but kind of scaring me!
My question is what do you guys think the mysterious "cut off" of step1 score is?
I can take the truth so shoot it !
For example for a CA program? or elsewhere anywhere...

Maybe residents can answer this best... but anyone please chime in !
Thanks in advance...

230's if fine, assuming the rest of your application looks good

Supposedly there are programs with hard cutoffs for step 1 scores (I've heard 240 for some), but I think most will look at the entire picture. Like pir8 says, if you are strong elsewhere, a step in the 230s won't be a deal breaker for gettng into ENT.