I'm currently in the process of waiting to hear from the rest of the schools. I applied to 6, 5 clincial Ph.D. programs, and one Psy.D. program. I really like the Pys.D. program after the interview. The only problem is $$$!!!

It's $33k a year!! I don't know how I'm going to pay that back. I can see two options, either suck it up and take out a whole bunch of loans, or re-apply to a Ph.D. program next year where it's free.

I was wondering if anyone knows how much Pys.D. programs generally cost? Does $33k a year sound like a crazy amount, or is it just me?

And if you're currently doing a Psy.D., how do you manage financially?

Any comments would be greatly appreciated as I'm totally stressed out about this. Thanks!

Do a PhD :)

Do a PhD :)

I'm afraid I don't have that option since I still haven't heard from the ph.d. programs (bad news). :(

My PsyD program is around $23k, so I think $33 does sound high. I go to a smaller program though. I have taken out loans but I am also maximizing my opportunities while I am here, networking and only seeking out top-notch internships. Also, I am focusing on a specialty field when I graduate. Those who plan to practice straight therapy are starting to panic about their loan situation. If you want to be a therapist it is probably not the most economical route. :luck:

what are phyD's options aside from therapy?

what are psyD's options aside from therapy?

what are psyD's options aside from therapy?


It really doesn't matter. The economic justification does not flow. A PsyD is not an MD or a JD and the economic benefit of the degree does not merit the expenditure.

It sounds like the only reason you're considering jumping on the PsyD train is because you didn't get into a PhD program. Sadly, I think that's probably the most common reason people jump on the PsyD train.

I'd suggest PhD or a different field.

I work now with a couple people who are in the process of getting a psy.d. from a free standing professional school that has opened franchises all over the country. One person anticipates her loan payment will be about $1,500/month, and this is just to pay back loans from this program. Obviously, I don't have all the information about her repayment period, cost of living during school, etc., but I can't imagine how a psychologist will pay back such a staggering amount of debt. If I were the original poster, I'd consider taking a year off to work in research and then finding a more clinically oriented (funded) Ph.D. program to go to in a year. Many JDs and MDs would have trouble paying back that much debt!

Additionally, if you do decide you would need to take out loans, you might consider figuring out how much you would have to pay each month to see if you think it would be a realistic amount for you:

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

I'd be more willing to pay for a university based program with a strong reputation than a for profit school openly competing to be larger than the University of Phoenix, which sends out spam to get students.

Additionally, if you do decide you would need to take out loans, you might consider figuring out how much you would have to pay each month to see if you think it would be a realistic amount for you:

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

I'd be more willing to pay for a university based program with a strong reputation than a for profit school openly competing to be larger than the University of Phoenix, which sends out spam to get students.


Good idea to check that. I know many students that have screwed themselves for the rest of their lives financially because of poor schooling decisions.

If you can't get into an economically viable path, choose another economically viable path.

It really doesn't matter. The economic justification does not flow. A PsyD is not an MD or a JD and the economic benefit of the degree does not merit the expenditure.

It sounds like the only reason you're considering jumping on the PsyD train is because you didn't get into a PhD program. Sadly, I think that's probably the most common reason people jump on the PsyD train.

I'd suggest PhD or a different field.

Actually, the only reason I would consider a Ph.D. program is that its FREE!! It's a nobrainer. Otherwise I think a Psy.D. program (a good one that is) is more compatible with what I would like to spend my graduate career doing, taking classes and getting practicum experiences, not research. Been there, done that, decided that if I can help it, I've had enough research for now. And it so happens that this is a good Psy.D. program (it's the PGSP-Standford program).

If you don't like research then you might ant to consider another field. I don't mean to preach to you and you most likely are aware, but research drives your practica. If you want to be doing it right you should be consuming a whole lot of research, i would go with the degree that better prepares you to consume that research.

Sorry, but it always boils down to that argument (aparently).

I work now with a couple people who are in the process of getting a psy.d. from a free standing professional school that has opened franchises all over the country. One person anticipates her loan payment will be about $1,500/month, and this is just to pay back loans from this program. Obviously, I don't have all the information about her repayment period, cost of living during school, etc., but I can't imagine how a psychologist will pay back such a staggering amount of debt. If I were the original poster, I'd consider taking a year off to work in research and then finding a more clinically oriented (funded) Ph.D. program to go to in a year. Many JDs and MDs would have trouble paying back that much debt!

Thanks for the constructive comments. See if this makes sense, a typical Ph.D. program typically takes 7 years, where as a Psy.D. takes 5. So the Psy.D. would get a 2 year head start financially.

I wish more Psy.D.s would come and defend their positions :(

I think you should listen to Jon Snow, this shouldn't be about financial decisions, if that's what the equation boils down to go ont another field. I don't mean to sound condesending, but I think that $ shouldn't entice you into this field, or any othr for that matter.

If you don't like research then you might ant to consider another field. I don't mean to preach to you and you most likely are aware, but research drives your practica. If you want to be doing it right you should be consuming a whole lot of research, i would go with the degree that better prepares you to consume that research.

"Consuming" seems to be the operative word. I will be learning to "consume" research in a "good" Psy.D. program. I don't see why this is so differnt from the med school model, where med students take course first their first 2 years, then do rotations in hospitals their last 2 years. Seems to work out well for them. So I don't understand what you mean by doing it "right"??

I was being a jerk, I'm not a huge fan of the Vail Model.

I think you should listen to Jon Snow, this shouldn't be about financial decisions, if that's what the equation boils down to go ont another field. I don't mean to sound condesending, but I think that $ shouldn't entice you into this field, or any othr for that matter.

I wanted to persue a degree in psychology becasue I genuinely like the subject and like to help people, and I think a doctorate will help prepare me for that. The money only comes into the euqation because I'm trying to be realistic here at the same time. And by the way, $ didn't entic me into this field, otherwise I'd picked law school or business school. But I do need to get by while soaking in the higher education, and that's why I have to consider the money factor. It is a big factor, right?

Ultimately yes, i think it is, but I like to think (maybe naively) that if you do something you like, and aren't a complete idiot about your decisions you will be fine.

I wanted to persue a degree in psychology becasue I genuinely like the subject and like to help people, and I think a doctorate will help prepare me for that. The money only comes into the euqation because I'm trying to be realistic here at the same time. And by the way, $ didn't entic me into this field, otherwise I'd picked law school or business school. But I do need to get by while soaking in the higher education, and that's why I have to consider the money factor. It is a big factor, right?

if this is the case and you're interested in therapy more so than assessment, just get a MSW. quicker, more cost effective, and you can help tons of people in tons of different settings.

if this is the case and you're interested in therapy more so than assessment, just get a MSW. quicker, more cost effective, and you can help tons of people in tons of different settings.

Which leads to my question, I do not wish to offend anybody, but are MSW's sufficiently trained to provide therapy? After all, it's only a 2 year program.

The PsyD program I was applying to was 18k so yes 33 is a lot. Not to be nosy, but which program was that high?!

Here is my situation: I go to a state university and live home, so as an undergraduate my entire education has cost about $15,000! Now most people going for PhD's spent 4+ years at a major research unviersity, paying $30,000-40,000 a year (maybe or maybe not including housing)...they will get their doctorate for free, I will pay (and probably a LOT) for a PsyD..but with the money I saved up, it will literally equal out to what most people paid to go to a major university as an undergrad.

Honestly you have to do what's right for you. I live in the Northeast so obviously the way of thinking here is very PRO=PsyD because it's a new degree and it's viewed WAY differently here than say, the midwest! If what you're goals are, match what a PsyD program has to offer you--wouldnt you want the MOST possible experience utilizing your skills and gain more experience doing exactly what you plan to do when you're finished? That's sure as heck why I'm choosing a PsyD over a PhD.

PhD's are *amazing* and I have so much respect for them, but it's just NOT for me..that's all there is to it. The PsyD completely matches my itnerests as well as my personal goals. Don't listen to all the negativity aimed at the degree, it wouldn't exist if it wasn't necessary and useful to many clinicians.

Hope this helped...
Jon

hi everyone!

i chose to go for psyd because really, it fits with my personal and career goals... although cost is a concern because i am canadian... it's too bad that they don't have any psyd programs in canada... at all...

and it doesn't matter THAT much where u go or which degree u pursue... it's how u make of the experience... i was talking to a post doc student who graduated from adler school of professional psychology, and she's mainly doing research now... opportunities will always be there...

anyways, i have interviews coming up and i'm quite nervous!!! i wish everyone the best!!! :)

what are psyD's options aside from therapy?

Big one- assessment
Specialties- health psych, neuropsych, forensic psych, etc.

Actually, the only reason I would consider a Ph.D. program is that its FREE!! It's a nobrainer. Otherwise I think a Psy.D. program (a good one that is) is more compatible with what I would like to spend my graduate career doing, taking classes and getting practicum experiences, not research. Been there, done that, decided that if I can help it, I've had enough research for now. And it so happens that this is a good Psy.D. program (it's the PGSP-Standford program).

:clap: :clap: :clap:
Individual differences, I swear they don't teach that in PhD programs. I am in an internship right now at a top teaching hospital, working alongside PhD students from an Ivy League program. Not only am I killing them with my ability to relate to something other than a book and a theory, but these people are not even happy because they are being forced to do work that they don't want to do. My PsyD program is practically cutomized and I do not regret my decision for one second. As far as debt goes, I talk to alumni from my program all the time and guess what? They have homes, they have families, they have careers.

I used to battle this position all the time on here, but I have been busy in my (quite demanding!) PsyD program so I haven't been able to. I wonder what Freud would say about all the defensive rhetoric spouted by Phds around here...

:clap: :clap: :clap:
Individual differences, I swear they don't teach that in PhD programs. I am in an internship right now at a top teaching hospital, working alongside PhD students from an Ivy League program. Not only am I killing them with my ability to relate to something other than a book and a theory, but these people are not even happy because they are being forced to do work that they don't want to do. My PsyD program is practically cutomized and I do not regret my decision for one second. As far as debt goes, I talk to alumni from my program all the time and guess what? They have homes, they have families, they have careers.

I used to battle this position all the time on here, but I have been busy in my (quite demanding!) PsyD program so I haven't been able to. I wonder what Freud would say about all the defensive rhetoric spouted by Phds around here...

Freud was a quack! What defensive rhetoric? I'm quite offensive, thank you.

I'm sure they have homes and families and either one of them has a real job or they are up the their eyeballs in the debt. Though given the negative saving rate that Americans seem prone to, the PsyD is perfectly in keeping with the prominent deficit spending mentality.

Jon4psyD,

That's an interesting rationalization (paying 30-40 K for a year for a major university for undergrad offsetting the debt difference). I'd wager many PhD path folks had full scholarships for under grad too (like me).

Freud also loved cocaine so much he wrote a book about it.

Flutterby- this practice technique you "kill" with is not drive by theory? God forbid.

They irony is that the PsyDs would have to design a study to show that they can practice any better than PhDs. Which isn't the case anyway.

First of all I was kidding about Freud, why so sensitive? Second, not only is my undergraduate thesis in the process of publication(!) but my PsyD program requires a dissertation. Psychology is neither learned nor taught in a vacuum, get real.

I have gotten sucked in to this endless debate and I am respectfully bowing out. I have better things to do with my time.

Cheers

Ive mulled over doing the PHD/PsyD issue over and over ad nauseum but Im not sure that the result outweighs the benefits anymore. Unless I go for a PHD or PsyD/JD at 2 specific schools then it won't be worth it for me. $140k extra in loans isnt attractive when psychologists typically get paid less than 70k out of grad school. Ive worked with LPCs making more money doing less work (I can show you proof of the job listings) and having less responsibility so thats that for me.

I dont want to be burdened by student loans, truly I dont. Ive been to quite a few conferences and 7 out of the 11 people I talked to begged me to reconsider because of the state of psychology today. Many said they would have done a PsyD but then that cost too much and PHDs are having a hard time finding jobs. HELL the JDs are too!! Its a sautrated market and unless you can find your niche then you are stuck with the rest with no plan and full intentions of doing 100% therapy know understanding it takes time and networking to build a caseload. So im conflicted and while I usually just make a decision and suck it up, Im reconsidering for now. Getting a another hybrid seems best but the focused one would be even better as it is muy cheapo!

Flutterbyu,dont flame me :laugh: TRuly you know I respect your decision as we've talked about this off the board. After thinking things through again and the fact that I am incurring more loans for my grad program and the thought of piling on MORE is quite daunting.

I am currently in a Counseling Psychology program (applying for the Forensic dual so make it a Forensic/Counseling Psychology MA) and upon graduation I will be eligible for licensure after taking the exam and getting the required about of hours for supervision. After looking at job prospects in the field, I must say that I am disappointed in the salaries offered to DOCTORAL level clinicians as they arent THAT far off from MA level folks. I am interested in going the forensic route and have been considering Widener's PsyD/Jd program and John Jay's PHD in Forensic Psychology program. Widener will cost 24k per YEAR for 6 years. Do the math! 144K, NOT including undergraduate and other loans. Even if you are earning 100k a year dabbling in a bit of everything it still doesnt ADD UP. Bottom line is there are JDs, PSyDs and PHDs experiencing this as well. BUT the only saving grace is that

Furthermore, I dont think that PsyDs are ANY less qualified than PHDs. I see it all the time here and Ive gotten the MAIN aspect of the debate. However, I choose to see past the egotistical insults that PHDs seem to enjoy throwing at PsyDs. Choosing practice over research isnt a bad thing as long as you are TAUGHT how to VALUE and apply EMPIRICALLY SUPPORTED treatments. Thats it. Ive just come to the conclusion that paying/borrowing over 20k for 5 years to get paid around 70k doesnt make financial sense to me.

While I am getting married this year (sorry psici) and my hubby will be able to support us while I am in school, it is an unfair burden to put on us when TRULY I can achieve the same salary bracket as a PsyD/PHD.

I think people overdo the research vs. clinical experience debate. There are some, if not many, PhD programs who emphasize a lot on rigorous clinical training and research. Northwestern Feinberg is one of them off the top of my head. If you get into these PhD programs, chances are that you will be funded while getting the same or a bit less clinical exposure compared to other PsyD programs. Besides, let's face it, getting into a PhD program is 10 times harder than getting to a PsyD program. With a PhD degree, you always have the option of teaching whereas a PsyD candidate will not be the favored one in academia, in general, unless you want to teach at a PsyD program.

I guess my point is choose the right program.

Jon Snow,
I have friends at Iowa, George Washington, Nebraska, Miami all doing undergrad and a lot got grants..but are still paying 30k a year when all is said and done. I know, out of high school it's the right way to go..but for our major (Psychology)..it makes no 'financial sense' to get a BA in Psychology at 30k a year...but people are doing it, and reaping the rewards of full funded PhD programs. I'm just take the opposite approach!

As for these arguments, they are old, boring, and soo played out guys..it's like a broken record. you just have to go for what fits you best not what the degree is.

As for PhDs (and PsyDs) not making much money for the level of education they had...I'm sure in many cases this is VERY true. You just have to be creative in what you go into and the money/opportunities are there..but of course, this is any profession..I know many people with just HS diplomas doing very well. Creativity and timing in your field of choice is key....

Jon Snow,
I have friends at Iowa, George Washington, Nebraska, Miami all doing undergrad and a lot got grants..but are still paying 30k a year when all is said and done.

See, I don't get that. Those are decent schools, but not worth 30K a year. In Florida, the University of Florida is a superior school to the University of Miami and it's much cheaper. Many of the other state schools are also comparable.

The best school on your list above, in my opinion, is the University of Iowa. Why didn't these people go to school in their home states? Or, do something to waive out of state tuition. When I applied for undergrad, many schools offered to waive out of state tuition payments. I think it's rather stupid to spend that kind of cash on an undergraduate education (med school. . . ok, Harvard Law school, ok).


As for these arguments, they are old, boring, and soo played out guys..it's like a broken record. you just have to go for what fits you best not what the degree is.

I disagree. I think professional schools are very dangerous to the field and are financially poor decisions.

As for PhDs (and PsyDs) not making much money for the level of education they had...I'm sure in many cases this is VERY true. You just have to be creative in what you go into and the money/opportunities are there..but of course, this is any profession..I know many people with just HS diplomas doing very well. Creativity and timing in your field of choice is key...

Absolutely true!

it may be a financially poor decision for YOU, it is a generalization to say that it is a poor financial decision for everybody...its all about what fits best for the person...how many times do we have to say this?

it may be a financially poor decision for YOU, it is a generalization to say that it is a poor financial decision for everybody...its all about what fits best for the person...how many times do we have to say this?


I suppose that's true. If you have a spouse that makes several hundred thousand dollars a year or if you're a trust fund baby, I guess it doesn't matter how much it costs.

The point is, in a vacuum (i.e., you start at a zero sum and enter a typical professional school), it isn't a good financial decision.

In that case I will agree with you.
On a side note,I am one of the people who didnt "fall back" on a psyd program. I applied to all PsyD programs, knowing that the PhD wasnt for me. There are many people like me Snow, you should take that into consideration before you list all the reasons why a PhD is better, which I have seen you do in the past on other blogs. The degree exists because there is a need for it. People work very hard to get into programs, which I am very happy I have, (and before you ask, I have been accepted to professional schools AS WELL AS university based programs, which I admit do provide a large ammount of tuition reimbursement), I think that you should respect the academic decisions others make without denigrating their worth. Psychologists should learn how to see things from points of view other than their own

Anyone else think we should have separate forums for PsyD and PhD clinical psychology? The debates are almost as heated as the PhD vs. Psychiatrist battles.

lol, i agree

mpino,

I think that even if psychologists learn to see things from others point of view they will still continue to place a value on them. Quite a bit of the field focuses on what is right or wrong behavior. If you want to go into practice as you say, you will most likely eoncounter situations in which you will ahve to tell people they are doing the wrong thing. JS thinks that PsyDs are wrong for his field.

JS thinks that PsyDs are wrong for his field.

In their current form .. . i.e. mostly pimped by large businesses rather than educational institutions.. . conflict of interest.



I can see the perspective of a psy d student.

This will probably be insulting, but here is what I think may be attractive about the PsyD to a potential student.

Undergrad psychology is a relatively easy major to coast through. As a consequence, the major is filled with many people that aren't particularly bright or studious. The problem is that it is difficult to make good money with a bachelors in psychology. There is no status. There is nothing really. So, one most go to graduate school or a different career, or both.

Clinical psychology is the crown jewel of the field, if you will. Lots of people think, "I don't really want to do research, I want to practice. I want to help people." When one looks at the reqs for a phd program versus a psyd program and that person was never much of a student to begin with, the phd looks daunting. Throw on how competitive the phd programs are and there is ample incentive to go the PsyD route. It's the path of least resistance. After all, there are always loans readily available that you don't have to pay back in "like. . . forever." Plus, you get status, "I'm going to be a doctor!" which is incentive beyond going for say an MSW for some people.

The PsyD is easier, quicker, and less competitive. One problem. . .the income doesn't generally justify the expenditure.

mpino,

I think that even if psychologists learn to see things from others point of view they will still continue to place a value on them. Quite a bit of the field focuses on what is right or wrong behavior. If you want to go into practice as you say, you will most likely eoncounter situations in which you will ahve to tell people they are doing the wrong thing. JS thinks that PsyDs are wrong for his field.



Yes, but he doesnt realize he is insulting potential future colleagues.

Snow you are making many faulty assumptions about the intelligence and academic ability of Psyd's as well as their motivations for pursuing the degree. I'm not going to go on with this conversation.

Snow you are making many faulty assumptions about the intelligence and academic ability of Psyd's as well as their motivations for pursuing the degree. I'm not going to go on with this conversation.


I'm not generalizing to everyone. It was just an example.

I'm sick of your PsyD-bashing, JonSnow.

First off, I can earn just as much as a PhD in clinical practice. That's bull**** that a PsyD is less economically viable.

Second, I feel that I got much better clinical training than most PhD's. I may have gone to a professional school, but I think I am highly skilled and qualified for what I do. The education you get in grad school is only a foundation, though: the real training comes from your clinical work in practica and internships. I have been supervised by PhD's and MD's who have told me I am a stronger clinician than most interns and even licensed psychologists they have worked with.

Third, the competition and oversaturation of the field that you SHOULD be worrying about is the MFT's and MSW's, because THEY are the ones who can fill those positions at half the salary.

You know, there were plenty of people in my grad program who probably shouldn't have been there and are going to be lousy psychologists. But guess what? If they suck, then they shouldn't really be any competition for you then, should they?

It doesn't matter where you went to school or what your degree is; it matters what you actually learned, how you practice, and how you can present that to others.

I agree with Jon Snow- well said.

I agree that the undgrad psychology degree (in general) is a joke. I think that the field would greatly improve in both quality but perhaps more so in esteem. I think that psychology as a profession is often viewed as a joke which has a lot to do with the media's protrayal but also to how the undergrad degree is administered. If that same lack of rigor is carried on to the doctorate level then the field is continuing to suffer. Now not everyone who gets an undergrad degree in psych is a nincompoop, nor is every PsyD, MFT, LCSW, Etc. The majority probably arean't. Nor is every PhD that special. But there is something aobut the field that attracts a certain type of person who does not like working hard, or math and science which is what drives psychology today. They shouldn't be accorded the same stature, privileges, whatever as those who are hard working, skillful, etc. And the attitude shouldn't be well lets give 'em all degrees and then they can sink or swim in the workplace.

To be quite honest, if they made the undergrad degree more rigorous I would probably not have made it. But then again maybe my interest in studying the human condition would have led me to push myself and be a more strong and capable person as a result, so taht I could have stayed in it. I don't know. I certainly agree that this is a tired argument. But for some reason it seems to keep resurfacing. Maybe it's because PhDs are arogant? But maybe not. I think the field has a high potential for quackery of all kinds, and it has a history of quackery. Those who have a high investment in the field should be railing agianst it, doing all that they can to avoid it. I think that many feel that professional schools increase the odds of that.

I agree that the undgrad psychology degree (in general) is a joke. I think that the field would greatly improve in both quality but perhaps more so in esteem. I think that psychology as a profession is often viewed as a joke which has a lot to do with the media's protrayal but also to how the undergrad degree is administered. If that same lack of rigor is carried on to the doctorate level then the field is continuing to suffer.

I concur. At many universities the largest concentration of undergraduate major's resides in the psychology department. At my former college, which I now work for, there are a relatively limited number of RA positions available yet many of these positions are never filled. I think this speaks to the lack of seriousness most undergrad psych. majors take towards the field.

Upon graduation and the realization that the BA or BS is essentially worthless people panic and look toward graduate school to increase their chances of gainful employment. Upon realization that they have no chance at a clinical, counseling, or school Ph.D. many turn to professional schools. Unfortuneatly, the many poor students that attend Psy.D programs detract from the excellent students who are there by choice, not because they are poor candidates for Ph.D. programs (I emphasize this, I don't mean to insult the many excellent Psy.D folks on this board). I busted my butt as an undergrad to prepare myself to have a shot at getting into a clinical program and I am still on the bubble of not making it. As crappy as that is, it's the way it should be. It's a form of quality control that helps ensure the best training possible. When you consider how devastating an effect a poor mental health care professional can have on a person it bothers me that essentially anyone can become a doctor of psychology with the right amount of cash.

Well said, I think you summarized the source of outrage that many in the field feel. If I were a PsyD who had gone by choice and worked hard the whole way through I would be even more furious at the schools (or whatever) that had developed or furthered the poor reputaion. I'm surprised more PsyDs don't complain about the state of the vail model.

For the last year I have read with amusement the postings concerning the relative merits of each the PhD and PsyD degrees. The debate strikes me as being as pointless as litigators and corporate attorneys arguing over whose practice of the law is more valuable. In essence, they are two separate fields with overlapping basics. Each has its relative merits, and each appeals to different people.

As someone recently admitted to the Rutgers clinical PsyD program, I challenge the comment that it is far more difficult to get into a PhD program than a PsyD program. I applied to six PhD programs that were far easier to get into than the Rutgers PsyD program. Please do your homework...

I disagree Noah. I think that the argument is more complicated than that. They are not seperate fields, there is a considerable amount of overlap. I do agree that each has there own relative merits (in theory). In actuality I think there is a stark contrast.

Speaking of homework though, you know you probably whouldn't be basing your opinions off of isolated examples.

Congrats on getting into Rutgers Noah. That is one of the most competitive clinical programs. Period. If most Psy.D's followed the model Rutgers, Baylor and a handful of others put forth this debate wouldn't be occuring. However, most programs are not of that calibre and do a disservice to the Vail model by accepting many weak students for the right amount of money. It has nothing to do with the model itself but the way it is executed.

In essence, they are two separate fields with overlapping basics. Each has its relative merits, and each appeals to different people.

As psisci often likes to point out, the license is the same. They are not two separate fields. Yes, some PhDs go the academia route where PsyDs are at a serious competitive disadvantage, but the majority of PhDs do not go the academic route. I am an academic who does some clinical work and I see the professional school model as a detriment to the field as a whole.

As someone recently admitted to the Rutgers clinical PsyD program, I challenge the comment that it is far more difficult to get into a PhD program than a PsyD program. I applied to six PhD programs that were far easier to get into than the Rutgers PsyD program. Please do your homework...

I'll shoot that back at you. I've repeatedly mentioned Rutgers and Baylor as exemplars of the Vail model. Congratulations on your admission! That's awesome. You should be the most angry about the professional schools in my opinion. In general, PsyD programs are substantially easier to get into than PhD programs with an average admission rate as a whole in the 50% range.



I'm sick of your PsyD-bashing, JonSnow.


I'm sure you are.

First off, I can earn just as much as a PhD in clinical practice. That's bull**** that a PsyD is less economically viable.

Yep, isn't that a crock! But, that isn't the reason a PsyD is less economically viable than a PhD. Debt is the reason. 20-30K a year for tuition with no waivers is the reason.


Second, I feel that I got much better clinical training than most PhD's.

You FEEL. So what.

I may have gone to a professional school, but I think I am highly skilled and qualified for what I do.


Great, I'm happy for you. I've never said that good clinicians do not come out of professional schools. I've never said that good researchers do not come out of professional schools. What I've said in the past is that professional schools do not truncate their admissions, so you end with alot of dimwits running around with PsyDs. Throw stifling debt on top of that and you have a degree type that isn't so hot.


You know, there were plenty of people in my grad program who probably shouldn't have been there and are going to be lousy psychologists. But guess what? If they suck, then they shouldn't really be any competition for you then, should they?

Well, they aren't. But that doesn't change the potential impact on the field (e.g., supply and demand issues, perceptions of other professionals about the quality of clinical psychologists, political power in clinical psychology - psyds reproduce faster than phds . . . we are our lowest common denominator).


It doesn't matter where you went to school or what your degree is; it matters what you actually learned, how you practice, and how you can present that to others.


Well yeah, that and how much debt you got out of school with, and where you went to school, and who you worked with, and so on. . .

Which leads to my question, I do not wish to offend anybody, but are MSW's sufficiently trained to provide therapy? After all, it's only a 2 year program.


I just completed an MSW program at NYU and I feel I can speak accurately regarding the training....the short answer is NO...MSW's are for the most part NOT ADEQUATELY TRAINED....this has been my personal experience both within my program and at various internships that I have had...I was in a unique position because I completed a moderately rigorous undergradute program in psychology at the univ. of hartford (where they have a great psyd program) and I have lots of clinical experience in the field...plus my step-mother is a therapist in private practice...

overall i would say the quality of the students in an msw program is extremely poor....many are working women from poor neighborhoods and, not to sound elitist or rude, I question how NYU allowed this calliber of student to be admitted -- I can only surmise that MSW programs are "easier" because NYU (while not IVY league) doesn't typically accept poor students -- and most of my peers in this program have been morons

at internships and in field work the MSW's I have come across have only frightened me away from the field....I must say that I am truly embarassed to admit to holding this sort of degree, because from what I have witnessed, the stereotype of social workers holds true (eccentric, ill-equipped, untrained etc).

I was trying to get a degree where I could practice therapy and didn't want to spend "years" and $100,000 on a degree....but now I feel "stuck"...while I have a degree that is license eligible, I have no prestige and have idiots for colleagues...I feel that I don't have a choice but to go back to school....

Not to further stir the pot but...during my interviews at PhD programs, I met two PsyD who were full faculty members of the PhD programs (granted both professors were educated at Baylor). Regardless, the door may slowly be opening for PsyDs to enter the field of PhD teaching. :eek:

I was trying to get a degree where I could practice therapy and didn't want to spend "years" and $100,000 on a degree....but now I feel "stuck"...while I have a degree that is license eligible, I have no prestige and have idiots for colleagues...I feel that I don't have a choice but to go back to school....


This is what everyone who complain about the professional schools are affraid of. I understand why you feel the way you do. I hope you are able to continue on a career you enjoy.

This is what everyone who complain about the professional schools are affraid of. I understand why you feel the way you do. I hope you are able to continue on a career you enjoy.


this year i was placed at a psych hospital working primarily with a forensic SPMI population and i love it...and because i am a student the placement allowed me to tailor my experience there (based on my psych background, interests, and job/internship hx) so i have been getting amazing experience...the thing is, with my degree, if i were to take a job at that facility, my responbilities would be different from the ones i was able to enjoy as a student :(

i am just at a loss right now....i don't want to think i "wasted" my time

frankly i can't imagine financing and orchestrating a doctoral level program after being in debt for my stupid MSW degree (60,000) ugh!! if i do go back i will be in debt forever and my brain will be worth a lot of $$$$$$$$

I hate to point out the obvious, but why not try and shoot for a fully funded doctoral program, in whatever field you want. The loans should be deferable if you go into more school, no?

I also don't think you wated your time if it helped you decide what you really wanted to do and pushed you on the right track for you.

There are many funded PhD programs out there that have an equal balance of clinical and research emphasis. There are even some that are more clinically oriented. Also, if you look into schools that do research on treatment (CBT/ACT) you may find more of a clinical focus (...Drexel).

Something that is lost in all the discussions is that among PsyD programs the BEST ones tend to be the CHEAPEST. Neat, huh? By best I mean most academically rigorous and highest internship match rates.

In addition to Baylor and Rutgers, look into solid state schools like Indiana State and Indiana U. of Pennsylvania, and also the Virginia Consortium. These latter schools are still not well-known outside their respective areas (and their websites are distinctly unflashy) but their graduates do VERY well.

Something that is lost in all the discussions is that among PsyD programs the BEST ones tend to be the CHEAPEST. Neat, huh? By best I mean most academically rigorous and highest internship match rates.

In addition to Baylor and Rutgers, look into solid state schools like Indiana State and Indiana U. of Pennsylvania, and also the Virginia Consortium. These latter schools are still not well-known outside their respective areas (and their websites are distinctly unflashy) but their graduates do VERY well.


I interviewed at Inidiana U of Pennsylvania and I loved it. I am still waiting to hear from them. Any other info on their program?

overall i would say the quality of the students in an msw program is extremely poor....many are working women from poor neighborhoods and, not to sound elitist or rude, I question how NYU allowed this calliber of student to be admitted -- and most of my peers in this program have been morons

the stereotype of social workers holds true (eccentric, ill-equipped, untrained etc).

I have idiots for colleagues....

Honey, you is elitist and rude. I wish I could hear what those "morons" have to say about you...

I interviewed at Inidiana U of Pennsylvania and I loved it. I am still waiting to hear from them. Any other info on their program?

Yes, I live in the area and work with several of their graduates. You probably know they have a very high internship match rates and some excellent profs (who I also work with on occasion).

Yes, I live in the area and work with several of their graduates. You probably know they have a very high internship match rates and some excellent profs (who I also work with on occasion).


Yeah I was really impressed with the program. High internship rates, and not very expensive at all compared to other schools.i was accepted into. ironically, the program actually seemed pretty heavy in research. its def my top choice right now. thanks a lot for the info. :)

Flutterbyu,dont flame me :laugh: TRuly you know I respect your decision as we've talked about this off the board. After thinking things through again and the fact that I am incurring more loans for my grad program and the thought of piling on MORE is quite daunting.


Annakei I am happy that you are making decisions that make sense for you. That is what burns me up on these boards, everyone overgeneralizes everything!! There are great PsyD programs and there are horrible ones, but the same goes for Phd. I really tried to stay out of this one but I just couldn't resist :luck:

I'm sick of your PsyD-bashing, JonSnow.

First off, I can earn just as much as a PhD in clinical practice. That's bull**** that a PsyD is less economically viable.

Second, I feel that I got much better clinical training than most PhD's. I may have gone to a professional school, but I think I am highly skilled and qualified for what I do. The education you get in grad school is only a foundation, though: the real training comes from your clinical work in practica and internships. I have been supervised by PhD's and MD's who have told me I am a stronger clinician than most interns and even licensed psychologists they have worked with.

Third, the competition and oversaturation of the field that you SHOULD be worrying about is the MFT's and MSW's, because THEY are the ones who can fill those positions at half the salary.

You know, there were plenty of people in my grad program who probably shouldn't have been there and are going to be lousy psychologists. But guess what? If they suck, then they shouldn't really be any competition for you then, should they?

It doesn't matter where you went to school or what your degree is; it matters what you actually learned, how you practice, and how you can present that to others.

well said

Well said, I think you summarized the source of outrage that many in the field feel. If I were a PsyD who had gone by choice and worked hard the whole way through I would be even more furious at the schools (or whatever) that had developed or furthered the poor reputaion. I'm surprised more PsyDs don't complain about the state of the vail model.

I can kind of grab onto this one. I graduated undergrad first in my class from a top state university. No it wasn't Ivy League, but I assure you it was a quality school. I applied to one graduate program, the only school I was willing to spend 4 years of my life in and I was accepted. It is a PsyD program and I cannot imagine my life any other way. I would be miserable in a Phd program and at this point in my life, I guess I would rather be happy than rich.

As far as getting all bent out of shape over the saturation of lesser-quality PsyDs, I figure that as ling as I maintain my level of quality work then I will be fine. Lets be honest with ourselves, bad psychologists are not going to last. If you are good at what you do, you will be fine. I am good at what I do, hence I do not stress myself out even more worrying.

I earned a Psy.D. from a well-respected program. Sure, the paper mills and the half-a** students/colleagues will always frustrate me. They get out of professional schools and confirm the stereotype.

I chose PsyD for the reasons others have posted: a more clinically-oriented training program. The training was excellent. My clinical skills were clearly further evolved than my PhD colleagues on internship.

Then I got into the real world. I didn't get into psychology to be rich. I did, however, expect to own a home, a car, pay for kids education, etcetera. My salary was the same as my PhD colleagues. My debt load was several orders of magnitude larger. As good as my training was, it did not create from ether a job whose salary could match my debt. I am forced to admit that in retrospect I was misled regarding my debt-to-income ratio. When you're looking for jobs after internship, no one cares that you were a rock star on internship. My dissertation, publications, evaluations were not translated into any real compensation.

Now I am a second year medical student in an allopathic program (different story). I will earn my MD for roughly half the cost of my PsyD. I suppose I don't need to compare baseline earning potential.

All I can say is that I hope you PsyD students:
1. Have a very different experience
2. Attend a reputable school (you know who you are)
3. Get realistic appraisals of debt-to-income. The sticker shock can cause heart attacks
4. Understand that deep-seated love of humanity and earnest desire to help people will not feed the bulldog. You need to get paid for your work, and there is NO reason to be ashamed of this.
5. Accept that because YOU believe you're well trained doesn't change the location of the sunset.
6. No one is impressed by "critical consumers" of research. This is an undergraduate skill. Identifying the exaggerated reported effect size of a behavioral intervention by noting the lack of inclusion of "intent to treat" analysis" will get you a lot further.

Ok, that's enough. End of catharsis.

[QUOTE=Pterion] When you're looking for jobs after internship, no one cares that you were a rock star on internship. My dissertation, publications, evaluations were not translated into any real compensation.

Isn't the whole point of landing a good intership is so that you'll have better chances at landing a good job? After all, that's how they distinguish the superior psychologists from the mediocre ones (that goes for both Psy.D's and Ph.D's). Otherwise, why bother making an effort in grad school?

Now I am a second year medical student in an allopathic program (different story). I will earn my MD for roughly half the cost of my PsyD. I suppose I don't need to compare baseline earning potential.

For curiorsity's sake, if you were so "burdened" by your Psy.D. debt, how did you manage to foot up half the cost of that to do your MD?

All I can say is that I hope you PsyD students:
2. Attend a reputable school (you know who you are)

I thought you did mentioned that you went to a reputable school?

4. Understand that deep-seated love of humanity and earnest desire to help people will not feed the bulldog. You need to get paid for your work, and there is NO reason to be ashamed of this.

couldn't agree more!

5. Accept that because YOU believe you're well trained doesn't change the location of the sunset.

so pessimistic!

6. No one is impressed by "critical consumers" of research. This is an undergraduate skill.

I beg to differ. Many professionals are "critical consumers" of research, physicians, nurses, optometrists, the list goes on. And it's certianly NOT an undergraduate skill. Were you able to "critically consume" empirical psychological research when you were an undergrad? Please don't insult higher education.

I beg to differ. Many professionals are "critical consumers" of research, physicians, nurses, optometrists, the list goes on. And it's certianly NOT an undergraduate skill. Were you able to "critically consume" empirical psychological research when you were an undergrad? Please don't insult higher education

It is an undergrad skill if you apply yourself and don't coast.

I just completed an MSW program at NYU and I feel I can speak accurately regarding the training....the short answer is NO...MSW's are for the most part NOT ADEQUATELY TRAINED....this has been my personal experience both within my program and at various internships that I have had...I was in a unique position because I completed a moderately rigorous undergradute program in psychology at the univ. of hartford (where they have a great psyd program) and I have lots of clinical experience in the field...plus my step-mother is a therapist in private practice...

overall i would say the quality of the students in an msw program is extremely poor....many are working women from poor neighborhoods and, not to sound elitist or rude, I question how NYU allowed this calliber of student to be admitted -- I can only surmise that MSW programs are "easier" because NYU (while not IVY league) doesn't typically accept poor students -- and most of my peers in this program have been morons

at internships and in field work the MSW's I have come across have only frightened me away from the field....I must say that I am truly embarassed to admit to holding this sort of degree, because from what I have witnessed, the stereotype of social workers holds true (eccentric, ill-equipped, untrained etc).

I was trying to get a degree where I could practice therapy and didn't want to spend "years" and $100,000 on a degree....but now I feel "stuck"...while I have a degree that is license eligible, I have no prestige and have idiots for colleagues...I feel that I don't have a choice but to go back to school....

You are soo kidding me right? You racist elitist #$%@!! Ugh I am sick to my stomach reading your post!!! :mad: :mad:

Who are you to assert that "working women from poor neighbourhoods" are low calibur? That was such a nit-wit statement if Ive heard one on this board. There is a reason WHY YOU are stuck and other MSWs have found their nitch in other areas within the field. You are the CLASS of social worker we frown upon at CMHC who come out of SW school thinking that you can just run into your own practice OR that you are above other "MSW" work. What prestige are you looking for with an MSW? You are your won worst enemy because YOU are the type that brings shame to that field with your off beat comments. You should be ashamed to even say that you hold such a DEGREE heck I doubt you hold ANY with that kind of post. Jeez I promise if I knew who you were Id contact your issuing institution letting them know how much of a shame you are to the profession-NO LIE.

I am not an MSW, but I have worked with them. I do agree that their program doesnt adequately train them to be psychotherapists HOWEVER it is a great field mostly characterized by people who care about their communities and dont mind working IN the community to facilitate change.

Sweety you're the idiot for making the comments that you did. Im surprised only one other person addressed it but heck it was out of line and dear you have ALOT of learning to do.

All-forgive my outburst but I am absolutely appauled by this posters comments .

I see where you're coming from, but what did they say that was racist?

Isn't the whole point of landing a good intership is so that you'll have better chances at landing a good job? After all, that's how they distinguish the superior psychologists from the mediocre ones (that goes for both Psy.D's and Ph.D's). Otherwise, why bother making an effort in grad school?

For curiorsity's sake, if you were so "burdened" by your Psy.D. debt, how did you manage to foot up half the cost of that to do your MD?

All I can say is that I hope you PsyD students:
2. Attend a reputable school (you know who you are)

I thought you did mentioned that you went to a reputable school?

6. No one is impressed by "critical consumers" of research. This is an undergraduate skill.

I beg to differ. Many professionals are "critical consumers" of research, physicians, nurses, optometrists, the list goes on. And it's certianly NOT an undergraduate skill. Were you able to "critically consume" empirical psychological research when you were an undergrad? Please don't insult higher education.


The point of internship is lost overall. I have found that unless your internship is with a federal program or large organization, the immediate translation to a job is not linear, at least for PsyDs. Not that PsyD's don't get good jobs. Just my experience, I am certainly not claiming it's a national trend - but the posts on this forum make me wonder.

Paying for an MD? Loans and scholarships. The latter was not available as a PsyD student. My salary as an MD can afford the total debt load. This time I had a financial planner and not my professors run the numbers.

Yes, I attended a reputable school. I did very well. But these are not guarantees of anything. Just insurance, and unreliable insurance at that.

As for your opinion regarding research consumption, I respectfully disagree.

I see where you're coming from, but what did they say that was racist?


I dont need the OP to say it, its rather clear to me. Sorry if its an assumption but Ive heard it enough to know what the OP isnt saying.... :)

Anna,
I still think you are coming down rather hard on the OP (I don't know what OP stands for, i have hard time with new acronyms). I think I understand what you are reacting to (single mother, poor neighborhods), but if you took that out (and it may have been written or taken out of context) it would just be another opinion post (is that what op stands for?). I think the poster should get the benefit of the doubt. It was their personal experience. Just my opinion.

I respect that it was the OP's personal experience. But when discussing it among fellow students/professionals, the OP needs to be a bit more careful. I have ZERO tolerance for allowances of that sort. We are all adults here, it doesnt take a sensitivity course at this stage for the OP to know that the post was rather distasteful. I understand some would rather tip toe around the subject but *shrug* I'd rather not.

I have had some horrific experiences both professionally and within academia but I WOULD NEVER come to a public forum and frame it as such. NEVER. I respect all of you too much to do that albeit you get on my nerves with the incessant debates around PSyDs. :laugh: It shows a lack of professionalism and maturity. GRanted my response wasnt the best but I will admit that I would NEVER think to see such a post HERE on a forum that is meant for budding student professionals. Maybe on some of the other boards I frequent but not here.

So, those MSW programs just arent classy enough for you I suppose. You should go into Psychology you'll fit right in.

I love Psychology, but Im so happy to be graduating! All of my classmates (well those in Psych Club) are so full of this type of BS. As a group everyone gets along so well, and meanwhile everyone is talking horrible about every other person behind their back.

I lost a family member this week and had tons of family drama.I get this from my VERY well respected/known Experimental Psych professor:
"So you're missing class?! You miss my class you'll never recover"
Me: "Well Im sorry but this person passed away TODAY...Im not anywhere near the mindset to be in school..I wont be attending, this is a tough time for my family."
Professor: k.k..k..BYE.." --phone clicks..

It's this type of fakeness among students and the fact that the MINORITY of most faculties show a genuine concern to others' personal lives that make me scratch my head as to why so many socially inept and abnormal people go into Psychology...I just hope Im running into all the bad ones and this isnt how the field is as a whole, or I'll be greatly disappointed.

[QUOTE=Pterion]The point of internship is lost overall. I have found that unless your internship is with a federal program or large organization, the immediate translation to a job is not linear, at least for PsyDs. Not that PsyD's don't get good jobs. Just my experience, I am certainly not claiming it's a national trend - but the posts on this forum make me wonder.

I cannot argue with you on this one, since this is your personal experience. But same question, how do potential employers decide who to hire if not rely on internship performance? I mean, they have to rely on SOMETHING to aid in their hiring process, right? It just seem logical to me

Paying for an MD? Loans and scholarships. The latter was not available as a PsyD student. My salary as an MD can afford the total debt load. This time I had a financial planner and not my professors run the numbers.

Yes, in general, scholarships are not available to most Psy.D. programs. But as far as I know, like Psy.D. students, med students rely primarily on loans, not scholarships. After all, a typical class has ~100 med students, scholarships a limited. And please don't forget that you're not immediately going to have your $100k MD salary rolling in after med school. You have a year of internship and 4-7 years of residency, in which you'll probably start at mid 30k, depending on which program and where you go. So yes, your MD salary will afford the total debt load, EVENTUALLY.


Yes, I attended a reputable school. I did very well. But these are not guarantees of anything. Just insurance, and unreliable insurance at that.


Well, thanks for sharing your experience anyways, it does make me think long and hard about the Psy.D. program. I might still end up choosing it, but at least I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into!

I agree, but so is producing research. I published in Undergrad. It wasn't a top journal, but it wasn't difficult.

It is an undergrad skill if you apply yourself and don't coast.

I agree, but so is producing research. I published in Undergrad. It wasn't a top journal, but it wasn't difficult.


Sure, obviously both scale up a bit in terms of complexity. . . but I'd say that this stuff is relatively easy in general. It should be. I expect surgery to be "easy" for surgeons that I would want to use. I don't want it to be challenging to them.

sorry to have ruffled some feathers...i was under the impression that among professionals one could express an opinion without being derided...clearly i was wrong...i know plenty of great social workers who are well trained and do good work -- my step-mother is one of them...i was speaking about my own personal experiences both in school and in the field...overall the caliber of social workers has been poor...it is a true fact that a good # of students in the msw program at nyu are working moms from poor neighborhoods...it is also a fact that many are more financially well off -- either way the majority don't present themselves as particularly intelligent....i have been able to connect with a small sect of students who, are in my opinion, intelligent and motivated, i have felt frustrated in classes when students make comments like "i don't understand why a psychiatrist can overrule my dx of a patient" (umm duh! years of med school plus you are still a student)...there are people like this in any program (med school, phd, psyd, masters prgrms etc) however i have felt a high concentration in my msw program....i can't speak for everyone or about every program but as stated previously these have been my experiences....my overall point about msw's not having adequate training to do do psychotherapy still holds, unless they put themselves through an institute program (freudian society, MIP, etc) they will not receive the training even in a "clinical" msw program (like nyu)...unlike some people on this forum, i don't use it as a way to attack anonymous posters (because what would the point be really) but as a way to gather information about other programs and share the experiences (positive and negative) that i have had

sorry to have ruffled some feathers...i was under the impression that among professionals one could express an opinion without being derided...clearly i was wrong...i know plenty of great social workers who are well trained and do good work -- my step-mother is one of them...i was speaking about my own personal experiences both in school and in the field...overall the caliber of social workers has been poor...it is a true fact that a good # of students in the msw program at nyu are working moms from poor neighborhoods...it is also a fact that many are more financially well off -- either way the majority don't present themselves as particularly intelligent....i have been able to connect with a small sect of students who, are in my opinion, intelligent and motivated, i have felt frustrated in classes when students make comments like "i don't understand why a psychiatrist can overrule my dx of a patient" (umm duh! years of med school plus you are still a student)...there are people like this in any program (med school, phd, psyd, masters prgrms etc) however i have felt a high concentration in my msw program....i can't speak for everyone or about every program but as stated previously these have been my experiences....my overall point about msw's not having adequate training to do do psychotherapy still holds, unless they put themselves through an institute program (freudian society, MIP, etc) they will not receive the training even in a "clinical" msw program (like nyu)...unlike some people on this forum, i don't use it as a way to attack anonymous posters (because what would the point be really) but as a way to gather information about other programs and share the experiences (positive and negative) that i have had


Blah, whatever credibility albeit you are anonymous is lost. Everyone has an opinion, however as a professional regardless of the setting you should learn how to frame experienes so that they arent miscontrued. I am willing to bet that if we were at a public forum you would have said that way differently.

Furthermore, miss me with the "unlike some people in this forum" crap. You brought this on yourself. Granted we have all had some heated debates in which harsh words have been exchanged but they have done so in a professional manner. You my dear took that to another level. So you may need to go home and cry about the state of your career and wonder why its in the dumps. I think it has more to do with your attitude and outlook than it does the field.

Blah, whatever credibility albeit you are anonymous is lost. Everyone has an opinion, however as a professional regardless of the setting you should learn how to frame experienes so that they arent miscontrued. I am willing to bet that if we were at a public forum you would have said that way differently.

Furthermore, miss me with the "unlike some people in this forum" crap. You brought this on yourself. Granted we have all had some heated debates in which harsh words have been exchanged but they have done so in a professional manner. You my dear took that to another level. So you may need to go home and cry about the state of your career and wonder why its in the dumps. I think it has more to do with your attitude and outlook than it does the field.


i don't need to "go home and cry" because in fact, my career is not "in the dumps"....i have an excellent job and make plenty of money, i am mostly frustrated by the fact that i have to share this title with so many people i deem incompetant -- while i don't know what your background is, i'm sure you can speak regarding situations and specific people which reflected negatively on your profession -- i find that there are more negative examples of social workers than positive ones....i have never made mention that i had difficulty finding work, or that i had problems with my career so i'm not sure how you made that inference....i do find frustrations with the limitations of the degree, but that hasn't prohibited me from anything so far...i think there are a lot of people in many fields that give their colleagues and the profession a bad rap...maybe you should examine why you have such strong reactions to postings on here and why you feel the need to be so hostile...i'm sure that whatever it is you do, you do it quite well as you present as passionate and articulate, but i question why you, or anyone on here for that matter, feels the need to criticize and attack people that post their opinions, everyone is entitled to one, and everyone is entitled to post anonymously so i wonder why there is so much aggression on this forum -- the personal attacks seem out of control! whatever you choose to believe about me based on what i say here is your right

msnyc - when you were writing about "poor" people, did you mean bad students or poor people economically?

msnyc - when you were writing about "poor" people, did you mean bad students or poor people economically?


I think she meant people who are bad at doing schoolwork.

msnyc

you said

maybe you should examine why you have such strong reactions to postings on here and why you feel the need to be so hostile


:wow: it's because you implied that NYU shouldn't be accepting "working women from poor neighborhoods" to the MSW program b/c they're all morons (you didn't mention the well-off students being unintelligent until you got called out)

Even if this isn't what you meant...this is exactly what your post souned like and instead of immediately being defensive, you should consider how a generalized and sloppy statement like this sounds.

I also completely agree with Annakei that you need a lot more diversity training if you're going to be a social worker (and the fact that you feel these comments are appropriate around your "colleagues" or other professionals is also a big red flag)

You are soo kidding me right? You racist elitist #$%@!! Ugh I am sick to my stomach reading your post!!! :mad: :mad:

Who are you to assert that "working women from poor neighbourhoods" are low calibur? That was such a nit-wit statement if Ive heard one on this board. There is a reason WHY YOU are stuck and other MSWs have found their nitch in other areas within the field. You are the CLASS of social worker we frown upon at CMHC who come out of SW school thinking that you can just run into your own practice OR that you are above other "MSW" work. What prestige are you looking for with an MSW? You are your won worst enemy because YOU are the type that brings shame to that field with your off beat comments. You should be ashamed to even say that you hold such a DEGREE heck I doubt you hold ANY with that kind of post. Jeez I promise if I knew who you were Id contact your issuing institution letting them know how much of a shame you are to the profession-NO LIE.

I am not an MSW, but I have worked with them. I do agree that their program doesnt adequately train them to be psychotherapists HOWEVER it is a great field mostly characterized by people who care about their communities and dont mind working IN the community to facilitate change.

Sweety you're the idiot for making the comments that you did. Im surprised only one other person addressed it but heck it was out of line and dear you have ALOT of learning to do.

All-forgive my outburst but I am absolutely appauled by this posters comments .


AGREED!

i don't need to "go home and cry" because in fact, my career is not "in the dumps"....i have an excellent job and make plenty of money, i am mostly frustrated by the fact that i have to share this title with so many people i deem incompetant -- while i don't know what your background is, i'm sure you can speak regarding situations and specific people which reflected negatively on your profession --

Yes, I can. But it was done in a professional manner which spoke to their skills within the context of their work, not their socio-economic status. That is where you went wrong.

i find that there are more negative examples of social workers than positive ones....

I respect that has been your experience however "jaded". Rather typical.

i have never made mention that i had difficulty finding work, or that i had problems with my career so i'm not sure how you made that inference....i do find frustrations with the limitations of the degree, but that hasn't prohibited me from anything so far...i think there are a lot of people in many fields that give their colleagues and the profession a bad rap...maybe you should examine why you have such strong reactions to postings on here and why you feel the need to be so hostile...

Not at all hostile. Just assertive and dont tend to tip toe around comments made such as the ones you made earlier in this post. Simple if you ask me.

i'm sure that whatever it is you do,m bei do it quite well as you present as passionate and articulate, but i question why you, or anyone on here for that matter, feels the need to criticize and attack people that post their opinions, everyone is entitled to one, and everyone is entitled to post anonymously so i wonder why there is so much aggression on this forum -- the personal attacks seem out of control! whatever you choose to believe about me based on what i say here is your right

Cry me a river. You choose to see this as a projection of aggression when the problem is your lack of professionalism on a public forum You are frankly a disgrace to the field. Hey, Im being honest here.




There are many books on professionalism out there. Try reading one. I sincerely hope this was a learning experience and you truly dont take that attitude out there with you amongst your colleagues. Word travels fast in this field.

msnyc

you said


:wow: it's because you implied that NYU shouldn't be accepting "working women from poor neighborhoods" to the MSW program b/c they're all morons (you didn't mention the well-off students being unintelligent until you got called out)

Even if this isn't what you meant...this is exactly what your post souned like and instead of immediately being defensive, you should consider how a generalized and sloppy statement like this sounds.

I also completely agree with Annakei that you need a lot more diversity training if you're going to be a social worker (and the fact that you feel these comments are appropriate around your "colleagues" or other professionals is also a big red flag)

He/she is obviously a misfit!!


Thats my issue here. The fact that this person holds an MSW and MSWs most often deal with issues around diversity (at least here they do) and you have one here spouting off at the mouth with those comments? Youve gotta be kidding me!!!

I actually let a friend read the thread and once she came across the OP's post she was disgusted. Not by the fact that he/she was unhappy with the field but the choice of words. Her response " this person actually holds an MSW? Are you sure? I would hate to see them plopped down in an urban community doing case work. I'd like to see their reaction then"

I interpreted the OP's post (OP=Original Poster) as meaning that the women she was in school with and working with were underqualified because they had a lot more going on in their lives than just school. They therefore were not able to devote 100% effort to school/developing clinical skills because they were spending time raising children alone and in many cases living in poor/bad neighborhoods, aka, struggling for money (and maybe working a second job at the same time). I did not think this was a racist post, but just the way it is.

I interpreted the OP's post (OP=Original Poster) as meaning that the women she was in school with and working with were underqualified because they had a lot more going on in their lives than just school. They therefore were not able to devote 100% effort to school/developing clinical skills because they were spending time raising children alone and in many cases living in poor/bad neighborhoods, aka, struggling for money (and maybe working a second job at the same time). I did not think this was a racist post, but just the way it is.

Hmm, I thought the OP meant they were prostitutes :)

:laugh:


:rolleyes:

I earned a Psy.D. from a well-respected program. Sure, the paper mills and the half-a** students/colleagues will always frustrate me. They get out of professional schools and confirm the stereotype.

I chose PsyD for the reasons others have posted: a more clinically-oriented training program. The training was excellent. My clinical skills were clearly further evolved than my PhD colleagues on internship.

Then I got into the real world. I didn't get into psychology to be rich. I did, however, expect to own a home, a car, pay for kids education, etcetera. My salary was the same as my PhD colleagues. My debt load was several orders of magnitude larger. As good as my training was, it did not create from ether a job whose salary could match my debt. I am forced to admit that in retrospect I was misled regarding my debt-to-income ratio. When you're looking for jobs after internship, no one cares that you were a rock star on internship. My dissertation, publications, evaluations were not translated into any real compensation.

Now I am a second year medical student in an allopathic program (different story). I will earn my MD for roughly half the cost of my PsyD. I suppose I don't need to compare baseline earning potential.

All I can say is that I hope you PsyD students:
1. Have a very different experience
2. Attend a reputable school (you know who you are)
3. Get realistic appraisals of debt-to-income. The sticker shock can cause heart attacks
4. Understand that deep-seated love of humanity and earnest desire to help people will not feed the bulldog. You need to get paid for your work, and there is NO reason to be ashamed of this.
5. Accept that because YOU believe you're well trained doesn't change the location of the sunset.
6. No one is impressed by "critical consumers" of research. This is an undergraduate skill. Identifying the exaggerated reported effect size of a behavioral intervention by noting the lack of inclusion of "intent to treat" analysis" will get you a lot further.

Ok, that's enough. End of catharsis.


Hey Pterion,
I was wondering if you could clue us in to what the debt and the salaries were like for you. I have argued this point many times, but it would be great to hear what it is like from someone who was really there. My motto always was that if I couldn't go to a funded program I wouldn't go, luckily it worked out for me. I just don't know how I could justify doing that to my parents or myself if I had to take on debt. Thanks fo any info you can share.

Hey Pterion,
I was wondering if you could clue us in to what the debt and the salaries were like for you. I have argued this point many times, but it would be great to hear what it is like from someone who was really there. My motto always was that if I couldn't go to a funded program I wouldn't go, luckily it worked out for me. I just don't know how I could justify doing that to my parents or myself if I had to take on debt. Thanks fo any info you can share.

As you know, this can not possibly be representative of all experiences nationwide. I didn't investigate the business end of clinical psychology before plunging ahead. In school I was assured that it would be fine. Shame on me. I accrued roughly 100,000 in debt, less than a third of that for living expenses for the 6 years I was in grad school. Times were tight.

I finished and entered a job in KY that paid very well for someone right out of school. Then repayment set in. The best deal I could get was monthly payment I could barely afford, even on my high middle five figure income. Promotions were unavailable. In many areas, third party reimbursement is not possible until five years of practice, restricting my opportunites for private practice. The actual job I had was horrible, but that was my own poor choice and not a reflection of the field.

I met with a financial planner several times. He was very kind, in the way you might be to a "slow" cousin. He showed us the numbers and the reality. Best we could do was to pay off our combined loans in 30 years given our likely income. And to do so would require monthly payments almost twice the size of the mortgage payment for our tiny home.

I do think that my program was excellent clinical training. I am just not at a point where I can say that I was so well trained compared to my colleagues that it justifies the exponentially greater debt. Better trained, yes. Nobel laureate? No. It just wasn't a good long term decision. I am proud of my degree, my dissertation, my publications and my performance. They have all certainly helped me immensely in med school. But if I had to do it over again, I would have gotten the PhD. Money issue only. I could have filled the training gaps other ways.

End of rant. Thank you for your patience.