I was wondering if anyone could tell me about this. It seems like some DO students can apply to MD residency programs. Is that accurate and if it is, is the reverse also true?

I was wondering if anyone could tell me about this. It seems like some DO students can apply to MD residency programs. Is that accurate and if it is, is the reverse also true?


That is correct - DO students can apply to MD residencies but MD students cannot apply to DO residencies. I think that is outrageous and unfair, but nobody asked me.

If it is any consolation, the DO residencies in Emergency Medicine are of varying quality, and while some are supposedly very good, others are very bad. Allopathic, or MD Emegency Medicine residencies, are all pretty good training sites.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me about this. It seems like some DO students can apply to MD residency programs. Is that accurate and if it is, is the reverse also true?

No, as they are not qualified :)
DO's must complete all of the requirments of MD's then more. Hince the difference.

The techniques involved in DO were never meant to start a new branch of medicine. It was intended to enhance the MD program. But since MD's would not adopt these. A seperate program was started, YEARS Ago.

As for applying to 2 matches. If the DO was in a military path, they could actually do 3 matches.

Military, Do, MD.
Now that sounds fair, right. :)

Yep... fair :)... or not.. but im not gonna get into all that..

That is correct - DO students can apply to MD residencies but MD students cannot apply to DO residencies. I think that is outrageous and unfair, but nobody asked me.

If it is any consolation, the DO residencies in Emergency Medicine are of varying quality, and while some are supposedly very good, others are very very bad. Allopathic, or MD Emegency Medicine residencies, are all pretty good training sites.
Does anyone know which D.O. em programs to stay away from?

That is correct - DO students can apply to MD residencies but MD students cannot apply to DO residencies. I think that is outrageous and unfair, but nobody asked me.

If it is any consolation, the DO residencies in Emergency Medicine are of varying quality, and while some are supposedly very good, others are very very bad. Allopathic, or MD Emegency Medicine residencies, are all pretty good training sites.

I agree with you EMJunkie - I think it is ridiculous that MDs cannot apply to AOA residencies, yet DO students complain when they are "discriminated" against when applying to ACGME residencies because they are DOs.

And the comment made by Y2KPSD that "they are not qualified" is a crock of sh!t.

I think all residency positions should be opened up for application by everyone. The AOA is afraid their residencies would be shut down by a joint match because they cannot compete with the ACGME positions - that is probably true. However, if the AOA residencies were held to the same standards as the ACGME programs (RRC evals, volume, etc), maybe they would get better and there would be less fear by the AOA that all their graduates are leaving to become trained by ACGME programs.

Open it all up - that's my vote. Maybe I'm a traitor, since I'll be a DO in 3 weeks... that's just what I think.

jd

Does anyone know which D.O. em programs to stay away from?

As a general rule, the 3 programs that are dually accredited and the one that have both programs are pretty good - these are:

Sparrow Hospital in Lansing, MI
Newark Beth Israel in Newark, NJ
Albert Einstein in Philadelphia, PA

The one with AOA and ACGME concurrent programs is St. Luke's Hospital in Bethlehem, PA.

These are pretty safe bets that they will not close, and they are generally regarded as very strong programs. Lehigh Valley Hospital in Allentown/Bethlehem, PA is also usually pretty well regarded, but I've heard they work their residents to death. I don't know for sure, though.

Otherwise, I can't really answer which ones you should avoid - if you're interested in learning more about the programs, email them, as most do not have websites or information in places like EMRAmatch.org - they just don't seem that interested in advertising what they have to offer. That tells you something right there, doesn't it?

Usual disclaimers apply.

jd

That is correct - DO students can apply to MD residencies but MD students cannot apply to DO residencies. I think that is outrageous and unfair, but nobody asked me.

If it is any consolation, the DO residencies in Emergency Medicine are of varying quality, and while some are supposedly very good, others are very very bad. Allopathic, or MD Emegency Medicine residencies, are all pretty good training sites.

Interesting that you know so much about DO EM programs. I do not know even what you are presuming to know about DO programs...only rumors and secondhand knowledge here.

I also doubt that any respectable MD would care to apply to a DO EM program. I think they should be allowed to, but it would make no difference. It would perhaps make a difference in the super competitive specialties where even going to a DO program would be worth it to some MD's, like derm.

The AOA's argument though that MD's are not qualified to be in a DO program because they are not trained as a DO no longer holds water. Rarely have I ever heard of a DO program in any specialty that requires or encourages their residents to use their "osteopathic" knowledge or skills. It is now to the point of embarrasment in fact how little difference there is between DO's and MD's. Its just a matter of time before individual DO schools see the lure of bigger research potential and dollar signs and become accredited through the LCME. Even TCOM where I go to school is bringing on MD faculty as fast as DO faculty. 100 years from now, my DO degree will be a collector's item!!

Interesting that you know so much about DO EM programs. I do not know even what you are presuming to know about DO programs...only rumors and secondhand knowledge here.

I also doubt that any respectable MD would care to apply to a DO EM program. I think they should be allowed to, but it would make no difference. It would perhaps make a difference in the super competitive specialties where even going to a DO program would be worth it to some MD's, like derm.

The AOA's argument though that MD's are not qualified to be in a DO program because they are not trained as a DO no longer holds water. Rarely have I ever heard of a DO program in any specialty that requires or encourages their residents to use their "osteopathic" knowledge or skills. It is now to the point of embarrasment in fact how little difference there is between DO's and MD's. Its just a matter of time before individual DO schools see the lure of bigger research potential and dollar signs and become accredited through the LCME. Even TCOM where I go to school is bringing on MD faculty as fast as DO faculty. 100 years from now, my DO degree will be a collector's item!!


Hey, Corpsmanup. Like your blog. I'm going to write some reviews on my blog once the dust settles.

I agree with you EMJunkie - I think it is ridiculous that MDs cannot apply to AOA residencies, yet DO students complain when they are "discriminated" against when applying to ACGME residencies because they are DOs.

And the comment made by Y2KPSD that "they are not qualified" is a crock of sh!t.

I think all residency positions should be opened up for application by everyone. The AOA is afraid their residencies would be shut down by a joint match because they cannot compete with the ACGME positions - that is probably true. However, if the AOA residencies were held to the same standards as the ACGME programs (RRC evals, volume, etc), maybe they would get better and there would be less fear by the AOA that all their graduates are leaving to become trained by ACGME programs.

Open it all up - that's my vote. Maybe I'm a traitor, since I'll be a DO in 3 weeks... that's just what I think.

jd

I with you - though I have 3 more years :laugh:

Some MD's may want to apply to AOA residencies because they have family or other reasons to move to a particular city.

The Iserson residency book from a few years ago said that there were two USMD grads doing osteopathic manipulation residencies.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me about this. It seems like some DO students can apply to MD residency programs. Is that accurate and if it is, is the reverse also true?

Why would you want to do an extra year, anyway?

All DO residencies are 4 years.

Interesting that you know so much about DO EM programs. I do not know even what you are presuming to know about DO programs...only rumors and secondhand knowledge here.


I never pretended to know so much about DO programs. If you notice my post clearly said that the DO residencies vary in quality, and some are "supposedly" very bad - thereby indicating the second hand nature of my knowledge. A quick search on this topic will turn up numerous posts all saying vitually the same thing. If you want to get technical, nobody can speak with first hand knowledge of the differences between MD and DO residencies in EM unless they had attended them both (highly unlikely).

I agree with you that most MD students would not want to apply to the DO programs, but that shouldn't mean we are forbidden from doing so. It is almost like saying that DO's are so uncompetitive that they must set up a whole bunch of residencies just for them or else they wouldn't be able to get into a residency. I know that couldn't be farther from the truth, but thats what it looks like.

If I were in charge of the world, I would tell the AOA residencies they must start accepting applications from MD students within 2 years or we were slamming the door shut on ACGME residencies to DO applicants - that would change a few things pretty quickly!

That is all (end rant).

-EM Junkie, MD in 3 weeks

Why would you want to do an extra year, anyway?

All DO residencies are 4 years.

Keep in mind that out of the 135 or so MD programs about 35 of them are 4 yr programs.. People choose to go to these programs...

Keep in mind that out of the 135 or so MD programs about 35 of them are 4 yr programs.. People choose to go to these programs...

What are some reasons for this?

The primary reason I am interested in ACGME is the 3-year residency.

I can understand going to Cook County and LSU-New Orleans due to location, but there are several 3 year programs in Chicago anyway.

OSUDoc I am in Chicago.. The 3 vs 4 yr issue is something that has been discussed on here. Bottom line in a 4 yr program you have more time for electives, others can chime in. Here is something from the SAEM site...

http://www.saem.org/inform/medstudent/3vs4.html

In Chicago the 3 yr programs are:
U of Chicago
Resurrection
UIC
Christ

The 2-4 is Cook County and the 1-4 is Northwestern.. I think that covers the 5 chicago programs. Hope this helps..

I never pretended to know so much about DO programs.

If I were in charge of the world, I would tell the AOA residencies they must start accepting applications from MD students within 2 years or we were slamming the door shut on ACGME residencies to DO applicants - that would change a few things pretty quickly!

That is all (end rant).

-EM Junkie, MD in 3 weeks

I hate to say it but you sound a little condescending from your "MD throne". Your post stated that some DO programs were very, very bad. I mean how do you really know that? I just think to comment on that when you are in no position to know, nor care, shows some bit of arrogance. I cannot even tell you that some DO programs are very, very bad, but if I said it at least I have 4 years in a DO institution to back it up. But I am not saying that.

Your statement following your what-if about ruling the world showed more arrogance than I want to believe you really have. I want to believe you really do not feel that DO's are in ACGME programs out of some favor to us....like we are not worthy unless there is some sort of exception made for us. I think we both know that if a few DO's had changed their rank order around, many an MD student might be in a different program. Yes, it is true, some programs value candidates based on their overall package and rank accordingly. You are never going to get the ACGME to shut out DO's now that they have had good DO's in their programs. To do so would put lesser qualified MD students into specialty residencies that otherwise would not have got in in all liklihood.

So what you are saying if I understand you is that if the AOA does not open residencies to physicians who have a skillset not up to their par , that you would shut out a great group of DO residents in ACGME residencies?? Don't forget my friend, we take an entire 2 years of classes that you know nothing about, and still we often take your board exam. Its arrogant of you to believe that ACGME PD's would want to somehow punish themselves by cutting out of their rank list a great group of residents in favor of some lesser MD's. And before you retaliate, think about it, it's true. If ACGME programs overnight cut out ranking DO students it would cause them to have to rank 2-3% more MD's, and the only place to get them would be at the statistical level below where those DO's were in the rankings.

The bottom line dude is that when you jump up too quickly to speak about black issues coming from the white world, you are not going to be looked upon favorably by any of the black parties, because you just haven't lived in that world.

I hate to say it but you sound a little condescending from your "MD throne". Your post stated that some DO programs were very, very bad. I mean how do you really know that? I just think to comment on that when you are in no position to know, nor care, shows some bit of arrogance. I cannot even tell you that some DO programs are very, very bad, but if I said it at least I have 4 years in a DO institution to back it up. But I am not saying that.

I already stated that my point of view comes from second hand knowledge, which comes from reading dozens of posts on here on this very topic, and from talking to DO med students who chose to rank MD and DO programs. If DO programs are so good, why did you yourself choose to participate in the allopathic match my friend? I do not doubt that there are very good DO programs, much better than most allopathic programs. On the other hand, there are DO medical schools and residencies sprouting up like wildflowers all over the country, some with no regard to quality of training - only money. You say I am not qualified to post on here regarding this topic? I have read articles on the topic, spoken with people who have considered both, and rendered an opinion. Isn't that the point of posting on this forum, to offer an opinion?


Your statement following your what-if about ruling the world showed more arrogance than I want to believe you really have. I want to believe you really do not feel that DO's are in ACGME programs out of some favor to us....like we are not worthy unless there is some sort of exception made for us. I think we both know that if a few DO's had changed their rank order around, many an MD student might be in a different program. Yes, it is true, some programs value candidates based on their overall package and rank accordingly. You are never going to get the ACGME to shut out DO's now that they have had good DO's in their programs. To do so would put lesser qualified MD students into specialty residencies that otherwise would not have got in in all liklihood.

Did you not even read my post before shooting off with your keyboard? I said "that couldn't be farther from the truth." But when DO programs exclude MD candidates they are giving the impression of protectionism for the lesser qualified DO candidates who could not make it into an MD residency.


So what you are saying if I understand you is that if the AOA does not open residencies to physicians who have a skillset not up to their par , that you would shut out a great group of DO residents in ACGME residencies?? Don't forget my friend, we take an entire 2 years of classes that you know nothing about, and still we often take your board exam. Its arrogant of you to believe that ACGME PD's would want to somehow punish themselves by cutting out of their rank list a great group of residents in favor of some lesser MD's. And before you retaliate, think about it, it's true. If ACGME programs overnight cut out ranking DO students it would cause them to have to rank 2-3% more MD's, and the only place to get them would be at the statistical level below where those DO's were in the rankings.

2 whole years of classes? My understanding is that DO schools are 4 years in length, just like MD schools. Unless you attended some 6 year school that I am unaware of. Likely you do not take 2 years of "classes I know nothing about," rather a couple of extra courses on OMM that I do not care to know anything about. I further suspect that during that time I had a course or two you did not have, assuming we spent equal hours in the classroom or wards over the last 4 years. So while I received extra instruction in clinical medicine or physical exams or something worthwhile, you spent it learning to massage pneumonia out of a lung or some other worthless thing you will never, by your own admission, use in the emergency department. But now you have the arrogance to say that my skillset is not up to par? Next time you do an OMM in the ER, you let me know.

As to excluding DO's from MD residencies, that would be a huge mistake. But something of that magnitude might be needed to force DO residencies to accept MD candidates to their programs. If it would make you happy, have them take a month of OMM before residency starts.


The bottom line dude is that when you jump up too quickly to speak about black issues coming from the white world, you are not going to be looked upon favorably by any of the black parties, because you just haven't lived in that world.

WTF? How did this turn into a race thing? You lost me corpsman.... I think I have spent enough of my vacation trying to justify myself to you. The only solace I have is that I took your crosshairs off of PandaBear for awhile. Excuse me for trying to type up a quick response to a thread started by a confused medical student. From now on I will be silent and let corpsman, the greatest medical student of all time, respond to all posts on this forum.

Back to my vacation that was so rudely interrupted... :mad:

EM Junkie,

You continue to put your own foot in your mouth with comments like "lesser qualified DO's". Your bias is obvious. I said we take 2 years of "courses" that you do not take, not 2 solid years. And once again you call my 2 years of OMM "massaging pneumonia". Your arrogance is as deep as your ignorance, and competes with your sub Q depth!

Oh, yeh, hey Junkie, if you spent 2 years learning something that we did not, how come I had no problem dismembering your stats to include your OWN board exam? And before you say I am the rare one, what about Mishka, DeLaughter, Idiopathic, and tons of others on this forum I can name all night long?

OMM may be a ton of material with little relevance, but it is more than "massage".

I chose to participate in the allopathic match because there were more programs and more options, and the DO programs have no available info easily obtainable.

The "race thing" was an analogy that I felt you might understand. Being a DO is something that you cannot understand from reading a post, and to comment about the DO world with such authority as you did was out of line in my opinion. The race analogy was actually perfect because it parallels the emotions felt by the pioneers of our profession who I still respect even if you don't. They felt like black men in a white man's world. You talk like a white man who pretends to embrace the black world...analogy Junkie....analogy.

But your comments are condescending, and your knowledge is limited. I was NOT wanting to make this a DO vs MD thing but you chose to take it down that path. I was trying to explain that your original comments came off like you knew that there were "very, very" bad DO programs. I bet without a google search you couldn't even name 3 DO EM programs.

I'll extend an olive branch and admit I could have misunderstood your initial comments but I am not going to accept anything less than an apology for the subsequent anti-DO comments you have stated since. Anything less and this is going to get really bad. Come on man, at least admit you took cheap shots at my profession.....I mean seriously...."massaging pneumonia".

I am off to watch the Sopranos....I hope you can meet me half way with this....

Wow- did not mean to start all this trouble. I was just curious.

I understand that there is a bias in some programs against doctors with a DO degree. As it is not a bias I share, I was simply wondering why the MD students could not do the DO residencies? For those of you headed to DO residencies in EM, what aspects of your special training (i.e., the classes that MDs do not have) do you think are particularly well suited to EM?

I was also thinking about location/family concerns for many of my classmates.

Wow- did not mean to start all this trouble. I was just curious.

I understand that there is a bias in some programs against doctors with a DO degree. As it is not a bias I share, I was simply wondering why the MD students could not do the DO residencies? For those of you headed to DO residencies in EM, what aspects of your special training (i.e., the classes that MDs do not have) do you think are particularly well suited to EM?

I was also thinking about location/family concerns for many of my classmates.

There are few if any DO programs located in a city where there are no ACGME programs already. The only place that comes to mind is Oklahoma. Phili, Cleveland, Chicago, SoCal, Columbus, and several others are of no benefit for an MD grad. The ACGME programs in these places already outnumber the DO programs 2 to 1 easily. Even if the AOA opened up its slots to MD's, the AOA is determined to NOT have a joint match. So this makes it virtually pointless because no MD is going to forgo the ACGME match and wait for the AOA match. We are talking about a scenario that would benefit perhaps 1 or 2 MD's per year, if that.

OMM is not just "massage". It is a philosophy that starts with patient centered listening skills, and includes the use of hands for both diagnosis and therapy. More than anything it makes DO physicians some of the best anatomists around, and this is a big help in many ways. You really can't understand it unless you have learned it. Sure, there are some aspects of it that are just odd, and unproven, but there are many medications we routinely prescribed in the past that now are off the market because they were found to be deadly. Vioxx, Rezulin, Seldane, Propulsid, etc..etc..

All I am saying is that there is no reason for a 4th year allopathic student to come on here and proclaim to be some expert in DO EM education. I called it like it was. The OP asked a reasonable question and I hope she/he has heard a decent explanation of the issue between the tracer rounds!

The main point of my 3 post disertation is that this post deserved to have someone commenting on the thread with some true knowledge of the subject, and for a non-graduate (yet) MD to be the FIRST person to post on this issue with such vigorous authority shows just a tad bit of arrogance. Well, I am off to the menapause thread on the OBGYN forum to be the first one to comment on the emotional aspects of hot flashes. I don't know crap about them as a male but having read all about them I believe I know "very, very" much about their significance.....get my point?

I have no beef with Panda either Junkie....bit when all else fails, bring up another issue and side step the real issue at hand. And you said it best, the forum is a place to discuss and agree/disagree. I just happen to be disagreeing with you, and subsequently you have managed to show all your "true" feelings about the DO profession. I suggest you get used to working with us; in fact, one of my good friends will be joining you in your intern class. And I would study up before February if I were you...she too well exceeded your scores across the board and somehow managed to do it without taking that "extra course" you say you had. OMM is in "addition" to every course you took...not something that replaced something you guys took.

some feelings are getting riled...

Bottom line is I think the answer is in for the OP.. lets not turn this into another MD vs DO thing..

There are few if any DO programs located in a city where there are no ACGME programs already. The only place that comes to mind is Oklahoma. Phili, Cleveland, Chicago, SoCal, Columbus, and several others are of no benefit for an MD grad. The ACGME programs in these places already outnumber the DO programs 2 to 1 easily. Even if the AOA opened up its slots to MD's, the AOA is determined to NOT have a joint match. So this makes it virtually pointless because no MD is going to forgo the ACGME match and wait for the AOA match. We are talking about a scenario that would benefit perhaps 1 or 2 MD's per year, if that.

Cool thanks for the information.

OMM is not just "massage". It is a philosophy that starts with patient centered listening skills, and includes the use of hands for both diagnosis and therapy. More than anything it makes DO physicians some of the best anatomists around, and this is a big help in many ways. You really can't understand it unless you have learned it. Sure, there are some aspects of it that are just odd, and unproven, but there are many medications we routinely prescribed in the past that now are off the market because they were found to be deadly. Vioxx, Rezulin, Seldane, Propulsid, etc..etc..

DOs were not the only ones prescribing medicines that have since been pulled off the market. We are all guilty on that one. :)

All I am saying is that there is no reason for a 4th year allopathic student to come on here and proclaim to be some expert in DO EM education. I called it like it was. The OP asked a reasonable question and I hope she/he has heard a decent explanation of the issue between the tracer rounds!

I think the thread has been very enlightening. I thank you all for letting me know your thoughts.

Once we get past the emotionally and politically charged commentaries, it becomes quite clear that there's often little in the way of difference. To understand why MD's cannot apply to DO residencies is to appreciate the history of the osteopathic profession- I agree with others on this board who state that the AOA policy is "outrageous and unfair." To be sure, we've spent so much time lobbying for equality...now that equality is finally here, we spend way too much time trying to focus on the long lost distinctions. Osteopathic medicine began as an alternative to the often unsuccessful treatment modalities employed during the end of the civil war. Still (the founder) believed in a more 'intrinsic' method of healing; that is to say, he thought that the body could go a LONG way towards healing itself, provided that obstacles were removed. This is an extremely brief approximation of his ideological construct. He was fascinated with the musculoskeletal system and its inter-relationship with the hematologic, nervous, and lymphatic capabilities of the human body. To achieve legitimacy, osteopathic medicine HAD to conform to the same scientific constructs as its allopathic counterpart; it couldn't claim to be a complete (but distinct) form of medical practice without acknowledging the scientific principles that their allopathic colleagues had so diligently worked out. Thus, DOs have matured from "alernative" practitioners to "equal" providers of medicine. This reality makes it extremely difficult, from a philosophical standpoint, to maintain the notion that we are somehow special, distinct, or altogether revolutionary.

The real reason behind the exclusion of MDs from osteopathic residencies boils down a question of survival. Osteopathic medicine has lagged behind the MDs in terms of graduate medical education opportunities. If the profession was to embrace MD applicants, then they would be in danger of losing their funding and forgetting whatever it was that remained distinct about manipulative medicine. DO's have matriculated into allopathic residencies and have served as board members and past presidents of ACEP... many older osteopathic physicians view this as a veritable admonition of osteopathic medicine's roots and as some sort of betrayal to its founder Andrew Taylor Still....

Let me be perfectly clear in saying that the exclusion of MDs from AOA residencies is wrong and without justification. I think we've worked long and hard to achieve parity; as physicians and practitioners of modern medicine, DOs and MDs should be similar with respect to their committment to excellent patient care, evidence based medicine, and current standards of practice. The political reality is that the AOA needs to perpetuate itself as an institution. The AOA leadership understandably feels that if osteopathic medicine was to be 'absorbed,' then it would lose those things which make it distinct as a school... the therapeutic application of musculoskeletal manipulation (muscle energy, counterstrain, high velocity low amplitude, etc..)

While DO residencies represent an alternative path to board certification in emergency medicine, I think the key to the future lies in dual accreditation. That way, the osteopathic physicians would be encouraged to maintain their skills sets and to share them with their colleagues. Medical schools like UMass have an excellent track record in terms of integrating DOs into their curriculum. The field of family practice serves as a model for this type of cooperation- one Duke FP residency actively recruits DOs and encourages maintenance of OMM skills.

The decision to pursue DO vs MD training comes down to a personal choice. Residencies do differ with regard to quality and academic strength. Some DO programs place a heavy emphasis on community emergency medicine and offer rotations and many different institutions. Alternatively, MD programs revolve around tertiary/quaternary teaching centers. Talk to current residents and program directors and decide what's best for yourself. It is REALLY important to base your decisions on direct feedback- my friend recently started as an intern in a new osteopathic residency affiliated with Henry Ford in Detroit- he could not be happier.

Good luck,

PuSh

Don't forget that the DO's who want to take an active part in the AMA/ACGME political process are on completely different sides of this argument from the DO's in the AOA and subsequently the ACOEP. If you were to threaten the AOA and tell them that they MUST open their programs to MD's, they would laugh and say "Well then close the ACGME programs to DO's for all we care". They would love nothing more. They have no greater wish than to obstruct DO's from going into ACGME programs.

To try and squeeze the AOA for this change would be the equivilant of threatening a child with "increasing their allowance" if they don't stop doing a particular undesired deed. The AOA has no care in the world to join ranks with the AMA, so why punish an entire profession of DO's who seek ACGME opportunities when we all know they are not going to budge?

None of us care whether or not DO programs open to MD's...we have all said it should happen. It's just not going to happen, and you can moan about it all day but it's just life.

You continue to put your own foot in your mouth with comments like "lesser qualified DO's". Your bias is obvious.


Perhaps my thinking escaped you, I was referring to the small minority of DO's whose stats are less stellar than your own who may have trouble getting into an MD residency. In the same way as there are MD students who are "less qualified" to enter an MD residency, but who have no "safety net". I IN NO WAY meant to imply that all DO graduates are less qualified, and I thought I took great care to get that across in my post. If I did not, I apologize, you took it COMPLETELY different than I intended.

Come on man, at least admit you took cheap shots at my profession.....I mean seriously...."massaging pneumonia".....

Cheap shot, maybe. But even you admit that OMM has a few crazy teachings.

I am off to watch the Sopranos....I hope you can meet me half way with this....

The only reason I am even replying is that I would not want your comments to possibly convince one of my future colleagues that I am anti-DO. I have great respect for everyone who has graduated medical school, MD or DO, and entered one of the more competitive specialties, EM.

Maybe you thought I was out of line with my initial post, then post your own opinion and get on with your life. Thats what everyone else does on SDN. Only you seem to like to personally take issue with people and tear things down into a personal argument (hence why I brought up our good friend PandaBear). I guess I hit a sensitive spot with you on the whole DO thing. Lesson learned. Nobody else on here seemed to have a problem with my first post.

I consider this matter closed. I frankly have a lot better things to do than continue this degenerating thread.

Since this thread has been reopened, I accept your olive branch Corpsman.

In retrospect I should have answered the OP with this:

"That is correct - DO students can apply to MD residencies but MD students cannot apply to DO residencies. I think that is outrageous and unfair, but nobody asked me."

...and left it for those with more first hand knowledge of the topic to discuss further. I never meant to insinuate that DO's are any less capable physicians, I feel my posts were taken out of context on that topic. Let's consider this closed and move on to more pressing issues....

:hug: :love:

Since this thread has been reopened, I accept your olive branch Corpsman.

In retrospect I should have answered the OP with this:

"That is correct - DO students can apply to MD residencies but MD students cannot apply to DO residencies. I think that is outrageous and unfair, but nobody asked me."

...and left it for those with more first hand knowledge of the topic to discuss further. I never meant to insinuate that DO's are any less capable physicians, I feel my posts were taken out of context on that topic. Let's consider this closed and move on to more pressing issues....

:hug: :love:


Right back acha Holmes!!

And lesson for Tkim..oversteppor...of territorial bounds....wishin....for some...true power......nuttin butta playa....moderata.... (!@@$@!!#@^##@!)<------EM gang signs being flashed.


Stay on ya own block!!!

Right back acha Holmes!!

And lesson for Tkim..oversteppor...of territorial bounds....wishin....for some...true power......nuttin butta playa....moderata.... (!@@$@!!#@^##@!)<------EM gang signs being flashed.


Stay on ya own block!!!
Wow I hate to unnecesarrily bring up racial issues for the second time on this silly thread but I just have to say that I would like to nominate this post as the "straight up whiter then the whitest white man" post of the month :p

Wow I hate to unnecesarrily bring up racial issues for the second time on this silly thread but I just have to say that I would like to nominate this post as the "straight up whiter then the whitest white man" post of the month :p


Sorry man, I won't qualify, as I have too much mexican DNA.

I am going to a combined MD/DO program starting in June. I am asking this question humbly and without rancor and using my respect for DOs of whom I know many as a basis but why do DOs have to do a transitional year for a MD PGY1-3 program while MDs do not?

Also, to those of you who want to bust down on the DOs, if you look, many EM programs have DOs in them both as residents and faculty. Maybe EM knows something that other specialties don't.

I am going to a combined MD/DO program starting in June. I am asking this question humbly and without rancor and using my respect for DOs of whom I know many as a basis but why do DOs have to do a transitional year for a MD PGY1-3 program while MDs do not?

Also, to those of you who want to bust down on the DOs, if you look, many EM programs have DOs in them both as residents and faculty. Maybe EM knows something that other specialties don't.

Panda;

DOs do not NECESSARILY have to do a transitional year (called an Osteopathic Traditional Rotating Internship in the DO world) before an ACGME PGY1-3 EM program. In 5 states (PA, WV, MI, FL, OK) DOs are required to have this internship to get an unrestricted medical license. In the other 45 states, it does not matter whether you do the internship or not - the only reason to do it is to enter an AOA residency or to "stay on the AOAs good side."

I'm doing an internship because I'm moving to PA next year, as well as I am moving across the country with another person who is going to be trying to match Peds - we thought we would do an internship and then re-apply for next year after we are already in the area where we want to apply... whether it makes sense or not, who knows. It's just the way it is.

jd

Q: If a bunch of DO's fought a bunch of MD's, who would win?

A: Ditka

Q: If a bunch of DO's fought a bunch of MD's, who would win?

A: Ditka

WTF?

WTF?
old saturday night live skit...

old saturday night live skit...

Ok, that explains it - I've never really caught the SNL fever everyone else seems to have.

BTW, this is a +pad+

Sorry man, I won't qualify, as I have too much mexican DNA.
Shouldn't you have taken Monday off from posting then? :D

Shouldn't you have taken Monday off from posting then? :D

Oh, SNAP!

Shouldn't you have taken Monday off from posting then? :D

I protested by drinking imported beer instead of domestic Milwaukee's Best for a day. It cost me a little more but I got to really stick it to those freaking cheese heads!!

I protested by drinking imported beer instead of domestic Milwaukee's Best for a day. It cost me a little more but I got to really stick it to those freaking cheese heads!!

negra modelo, mmm

negra modelo, mmm
Modela Especial, NFL
DOUBLE mmmmmm

Q: If a bunch of DO's fought a bunch of MD's, who would win?

A: Ditka
DeLaughter... the SNL skit is one of the funniest they have done. I generally dont think that much of what is on SNL is funny the older stuff is classic.. My favorite..

So who wins this race? Mario andretti (I forgot the actualy race car driver) in his car or ditka in a semi...

A: Ditka by a mile...

Just so silly its funny.

negra modelo, mmm

Negra Modelo is the best Mexican beer.

Guinness and Newcastle are the best overall beers.

Shiner Bock and Sam Adams are the best American beers.

Discuss.

Negra Modelo is the best Mexican beer.

Guinness and Newcastle are the best overall beers.

Shiner Bock and Sam Adams are the best American beers.

Discuss.

Negra Modelo is decent beer. It stands out, not because it is so good, but because most other Mexican beers are so bad. Having said that, there is a place for water beer. I love Corona (ice cold) for those 100 + degree days on the lake.

I'm a Black and Tan guy myself, so I'll agree with you on Guinness but swap Newcastle for Bass.

As for American beers, I'm certainly a Shiner fan (I am a Texan, after all...in fact, I don't live all that far from the little brewery in Shiner) but there are so many good microbrews it is always hard for me to pick just one. Once upon a time, when all was still good in the world, Celis Pale Bock was my hands down favorite.

Take care,
Jeff <prefers comparing ales and lagers much more than MDs and DOs

Negra Modelo is the best Mexican beer.

Guinness and Newcastle are the best overall beers.

Shiner Bock and Sam Adams are the best American beers.

Discuss.
Anyone with love for Honey Brown, how about grolsch. I am currently enjoying these fine beverages.. I like to mix it up. Also Hatuey (sp?) is a cuban beer which is pretty darn good.

Also worldwide baltica in the gold can... Its a russian beer and is awesome...

I like Honey Brown, but in the past 5 years I have become bored with it. I have never cared for Shiner, especially once I found out they used carmel coloring to make it look like it was some kind of pale ale. It's not terrible, but its nothing I would die for.

Honker's Ale (Goose Island Brewery) from Chicago is great. I haven't heard anyone mention Fat Tire either, which I love. I like Amstel for a light beer, and like Jeff said, water beer is excellent when it's 100 degrees outside. My favorite for that is Milwaukee's Best Light in the blue can, which is actually just bottom of the barrel Miller Lite. Its cheaper and the same to me for the intended purpose.

Beck's isn't bad, and I really used to love Celis Rasberry but I can't ever find it anymore. And of course the old Sierra Nevada is a fine pale ale.

And for something completely different Anchor Steam!

Meanwhile MsDrBKNDVM has gotten fond of Stargazer IPA from the Karl Strauss microbrewery in So Cal. To me it tastes like a good beer that somebody added lemon juice to.:p

I like Honey Brown, but in the past 5 years I have become bored with it. I have never cared for Shiner, especially once I found out they used carmel coloring to make it look like it was some kind of pale ale. It's not terrible, but its nothing I would die for.

Honker's Ale (Goose Island Brewery) from Chicago is great. I haven't heard anyone mention Fat Tire either, which I love. I like Amstel for a light beer, and like Jeff said, water beer is excellent when it's 100 degrees outside. My favorite for that is Milwaukee's Best Light in the blue can, which is actually just bottom of the barrel Miller Lite. Its cheaper and the same to me for the intended purpose.

Beck's isn't bad, and I really used to love Celis Rasberry but I can't ever find it anymore. And of course the old Sierra Nevada is a fine pale ale.

I'm a big fan of Beck's Dark

I like Honey Brown, but in the past 5 years I have become bored with it. I have never cared for Shiner, especially once I found out they used carmel coloring to make it look like it was some kind of pale ale. It's not terrible, but its nothing I would die for.

Honker's Ale (Goose Island Brewery) from Chicago is great. I haven't heard anyone mention Fat Tire either, which I love. I like Amstel for a light beer, and like Jeff said, water beer is excellent when it's 100 degrees outside. My favorite for that is Milwaukee's Best Light in the blue can, which is actually just bottom of the barrel Miller Lite. Its cheaper and the same to me for the intended purpose.

Beck's isn't bad, and I really used to love Celis Rasberry but I can't ever find it anymore. And of course the old Sierra Nevada is a fine pale ale.
I bartended as an M1 and the place only served Goose Island on tap (others by the bottle) the honkers ale is good but some of the others are even better.

wow.. looks like MDs and DOs have more in common than we thought.. we ALL love booze.

Maryland no longer allows DO's to rotate at its affiliated programs.. I think that is a bit out of the line.. No DO program would ever restrict access to education from MD students.. In fact I know of 2 MD students doing OMM electives as 4th year students.

By the way, does anyone know if this is a school policy that affects all affiliated hospitals, or just UM medical center?!

It could be a liability thing. I may be wrong but the malpractice MDs have is $1mil/$3mil and I think someone mentioned on here before that DO schools only supply like 600K/???. Maybe they dont want to deal with this hassle.. I might be wrong and just be talking out of my butt on this..

It could be a liability thing. I may be wrong but the malpractice MDs have is $1mil/$3mil and I think someone mentioned on here before that DO schools only supply like 600K/???. Maybe they dont want to deal with this hassle.. I might be wrong and just be talking out of my butt on this..

I think it's school dependant what the malpractice coverage is. I know in a certain states, all the schools (DO, MD) in that state have small coverages.

PCOM students do have the $1/3 mil coverage. Not sure if we can rotate through University of Maryland's system though for electives

So once again i was wrong hopefully anyone who read what i wrote noticed that i gave myself a decent chance to be talking out of my butt. and i was.....

Maryland no longer allows DO's to rotate at its affiliated programs.. I think that is a bit out of the line.. No DO program would ever restrict access to education from MD students.. In fact I know of 2 MD students doing OMM electives as 4th year students.

By the way, does anyone know if this is a school policy that affects all affiliated hospitals, or just UM medical center?!

This is patently untrue. I recently met 2 DO's rotating through the emergency medicine department on a senior elective. Also, I know of two more who rotated through the U of MD OB/GYN department, one of which got selected for the intern class of 2006. Where did you get this information ? At least with regard to emergency medicine, I can definitely put you in touch with faculty who can make a DO rotation happen.

-PuSh

This is patently untrue. I recently met 2 DO's rotating through the emergency medicine department on a senior elective. Also, I know of two more who rotated through the U of MD OB/GYN department, one of which got selected for the intern class of 2006. Where did you get this information ? At least with regard to emergency medicine, I can definitely put you in touch with faculty who can make a DO rotation happen.

-PuSh

Push,
I'd kill for a rotation over at UMMC Shock Trauma, or Mercy.. wish it weren't true, But this is a new policy Maryland med school adopted.. They no longer approve DO students for any electives! Please verify that, coz it still doesn't make sense to me (maybe I mis-understood).
However, they did say it won't affect residency selection, because that has to do with the individual programs, not the school.

are there other ways to make it happen..thnx

Push,
I'd kill for a rotation over at UMMC Shock Trauma, or Mercy.. wish it weren't true, But this is a new policy Maryland med school adopted.. They no longer approve DO students for any electives! Please verify that, coz it still doesn't make sense to me (maybe I mis-understood).
However, they did say it won't affect residency selection, because that has to do with the individual programs, not the school.

are there other ways to make it happen..thnx

I'll work on it. Please give me the names and contact people with whom you're speaking. I'll put them in touch with our associate program director (a D.O. and several faculty members (more D.O.'s) asap. Seriously, this is a BIG problem should this apparent misunderstanding turn out to be policy.

Thanks!

-P

I'll work on it. Please give me the names and contact people with whom you're speaking. I'll put them in touch with our associate program director (a D.O. and several faculty members (more D.O.'s) asap. Seriously, this is a BIG problem should this apparent misunderstanding turn out to be policy.

Thanks!

-P
Just a warning. If what RayF says is true your assoc. PD won't be able to do much. I had assoc. PDs at Md and at Christiana both extremely helpful to me in the process of setting up an elective with them as well as Dr Mattu himself in on it. Everyone was very nice and helpful UNTIL it got to the school. The Univ. had a policy against it and the stone wall came down.

Just to reassure you RayF, I got an interview offer from Maryland and got a personal email from one of the associate PD's. They were anything but anti-DO.

It is harder though when working with schools, not programs, however. Their policies are often the old "LCME accredited schools only". But as seen in Pittsburgh, it takes very minimal action on the part of the AOA to get the legal wheerls greased to fix this. Actually contact them, as they were the ones who got the problem fixed at Pitt. These are the things they used to argue it...

...Its been done before with student XX (and trust me, they know who)
...There are our graduates in your residency programs...Dr.s X, Y, and Z
...There are DO's on the faculty there....attending Dr's...P,Q,R,S, and T

BUT.....the AOA has to see a vested interest in the institution. They saw it in PA because they saw a bunch of dually accredited programs on the horizon.

Just check with them.

I'll work on it. Please give me the names and contact people with whom you're speaking. I'll put them in touch with our associate program director (a D.O. and several faculty members (more D.O.'s) asap. Seriously, this is a BIG problem should this apparent misunderstanding turn out to be policy.

Thanks!

-P

Here's the info..
blindsay@som.umaryland.edu
It's the office of student affairs of U of MD Med school, visiting students section. (ask for barbara)

-Cheer

Hey RayF,

It seems that you are absolutely right with regard to your information. As of January 2006, the medical school no longer accepts osteopathic students for senior electives. I have already contacted Ms. Lindsay and recieved a reply from her confirming this policy change as official. Please allow me some time to get in touch with leadership at my own program to figure out a way around this unfortunate change of events. I've contacted our department chief and will take this matter up with the dean of studnet affairs at the UMD School of Medicine. I appreciatr your persistence, and I will do my best to at least determine the basis for this shift in policy. I will most definitely keep the student doctor.net forum updated on any progress.


-pUsHinforDO's

Update: This policy evidently came down from the Dean's office at the SOM. . One of the associate deans in the student affairs office suggested working with them to address such changes.

This is truly a disappointment. It's unprecedented and uncalled for! It would be understandable if they allocate the maximum availability for their own students (or even for other allopathic student). But what reason is there to completely ban DO students from improving their clinical skills and serving on a rotation?.. even with the left-over spots!? To all those that say it's a liability or insurance issue, we have the same coverage! we also have the same rights and responsibilities in all states.

I also guarantee that ALL DO programs have open doors to any MD student who is interested in any rotation in their institution.

This is truly a disappointment. It's unprecedented and uncalled for! It would be understandable if they allocate the maximum availability for their own students (or even for other allopathic student). But what reason is there to completely ban DO students from improving their clinical skills and serving on a rotation?.. even with the left-over spots!? To all those that say it's a liability or insurance issue, we have the same coverage! we also have the same rights and responsibilities in all states.

I also guarantee that ALL DO programs have open doors to any MD student who is interested in any rotation in their institution.

I wouldn't get too worked up over it until you know the whole story. But I do personally believe that they should leave it up to the individual programs to know what is best for their recruitment. I could see if it was an old policy that was simply a "language" issue in the wording of the policy, where they stated all "LCME" students were eligible for electives. This would have been something the legal department would have insisted upon years back to keep out the Pods, the FMG's, and other professions. I do think though that in this day and age that it could easily become a legal issue, if for no other reason than they already have tons of DO's on faculty and in residency positions. Its hard to come up with a legitimate reason to blacklist DO students after the fact and my guess is that any true opposition to this new policy would make rapid headway in fighting the issue. Please keep us up to date about the progress of this issue.

This issue, trust me, will be ongoing.

I think several things are important to keep in mind. First, I agree that there really isn't any precent for this policy change. Even if it stems from a liability issue, I find it hard to believe that osteopathic schools wouldn't work with U Maryland to rectify the situation.

Secondly, DOs are indeed a new thing at UMD. I spoke with several of the DO faculty, and DOs really didn't penetrate faculty and administrative ranks until 1994. Interestingly enough, some of the first were hired in the department of emergency medicine. Huge progress has been made since then, but it seems some backward thinking still persists.

At least part of my original "DO friendly" statement remains true- ask the venerable DO and SMOD Dr. Quinn if you need some further confirmation. The department of emergency medicine has been, and remains, very open to DO applicants. This stands in contrast to the apparent policies of the medical school, but DO administrators, faculty, and residents are well represented throughout our program. This policy came as a surprise to several people in positions of leadership. Beurocracies take time to solve problems, but the department's chair (Dr. Brian Browne) is already involved in investigating the rationale behind the SOM's exclusionary policy.

This little controversy should serve to remind both DO's and MD's that we shouldn't be complacent with regard to our currently collegial relationship. It appears that osteopathic physicians often do have to go the ''extra mile" in reminding people of our 'equal' status. This becomes even more important considering that allopathic program directors and physicians might need some more information when attempting to directly compare MD to DO applicants. Even at programs where COMLEX scores are accepted, DO students need to be vigilant with regard to their ERAS application and secure LORs from at least one allopathic PD or faculty member. Though this statement may seem self evident, a letter from an established or well known emergency academician goes a long way towards evaluating the osteopathic applicant's candidacy. I do not mean to suggest that securing an emergency medicine spot boils down to, "who you know," but it does make good sense that securing a standardized letter of rec (SLOR) from an allopathic program assists in leveling the playing field so to speak. I am one of those DOs who really wasn't all to concerned about lingering prejudice; I've never overtly had to deal with this issue on a personal level and have found faculty, administration, students, and residents at the University of Maryland to be both aware, and accepting of osteopathic physicians. Moving from a state in which now two DO schools are located, however, does require one to occasionally remind patients and staff about our particular training. While getting controlled substance scripts from the pharmacy, for example, some of the technicians there had no idea that DOs were, "another type of physician." I don't think we as a profession will ever completely eliminate that type of misinformation... We do represent a minority of physicians and many people still simply haven't heard of a DO...On a slightly more amusing note, when I went to secure my ID badge at one of our affiliated community institutions, there wasn't a way to add, "DO" after my name on the computerized ID badge. Their HR software simply didn't 'recognize' physicians that didn't have the MD title.

Finally, osteopathic physicians need to remember to look INWARD proir to blaming all of our PR problems on ignorant or misinformed allopaths. We've come such a long way from the days of bone-setting. The AOA is very quick to remind the general public that we are, 'separate but equal.' In reality, this sentiment is a little far removed from the truth. Though osteopathic medical schools do accept MD students for electives, we all know this is NOT the case when it comes down to post graduate training. Without delving into the political reasons behind that fact, it is important to remember that we perpetuate our own sort of discrimination. If we want to be regarded as complete physicians, equal in prestige and capability to our MD colleagues, then it makes sense that dually accredited programs are the way to go. It puts me in an awkward position, for example, to demand acceptance at U Maryland while the American Osteopathic Association openly excludes MDs from osteopathic residencies. Though there are probably sound historical, financial, and political reasons for the AOA's policy, we cannot legitimately scream for equality until we achieve it within our own organization. This controversy penetrates to the very core of the DO vs MD debate and addresses some not-so comfortable issues. Just imagine if you sit in an allopathic SOM's dean's office- does it make sense to give special consideration to osteopathic physicians while that policy is NOT reciprocated on the other end? Here we are, criticizing the UMD-SOM for possibly discriminatory policies while our own AOA advocates an unabashedly closed door policy with regard to post-graduate training.

I absolutely agree that medical students represent a different population than graduate physicians. However, the debate remains one that focuses on the question of equality. The AOA currently does not have enough post graduate training slots to accomodate DOs matriculating from our current and future schools- remember there's another one opening in Colorado! The allopathic establishment, especially those in emergency medicine, are aware that osteopathic physicians have much to contribute with regard to skill set, philosophic orientation, and clinical acumen. Every year, DOs represent approximately 6% (I think these stats aren't too far off) of residents entering ACGME approved emergency medicine programs. As we continually strive for the recognition and prestige afforded to our colleagues, we should be mindful of barriers to equality that exist within our own profession.

-push

Well said, pushin!

jd

Well said, pushin!

jd

Things are looking up at UMD. Though the recent policy change with regard to DO's came from the dean's office, our newly minted DEPARTMENT of emergency medicine has some friends in high places. Ken Butler, the associate program director at UMD, has been diligently working on this issue. One of the first DO's hired at UMD, he has both personal and professional interest in revising the current policy. Beurocratic changes do take time, but rest assured that senior DO students seeking to rotate through UMMS (Shock Trauma, UMC, Mercy, etc) do have a "voice" within the administration. As usual, I'll update this particular thread as more details become available. I recieve info on a fairly regular basis; Dr. Ken Butler does his clinical time in the U Maryland adult ED and Dr. Bob Barrish, the Vice Dean, is also a faculty member in our department.

Take care,

-p

1) If MD's want to do a DO residency they should have to take the COMLEX just like most of the time if a DO doesn't take the USMLE they will be shunned by high quality allo EM residencies

2) Due to the discrimination that DO's have had to endure why shouldn't they have a few of their own residencies?

3) I agree that more of them should be dually accredited and we can all hug like brothers and sisters

4) No matter what you guys say I am sure I will be discriminated against in some form or fashion when applying to Allo residencies. So why shouldn't I have a few that I can apply to without bias and who is willing to take the only licensing exam that I am required to take and look at it objectively? If you open these few residencies up to MD's then you will have MD program directors and hence the cycle begins again.....

in line with the booze posts, anyone like pacifico? i find it to be a smooth tasting beer.

in line with the booze posts, anyone like pacifico? i find it to be a smooth tasting beer.

How to say this without being negative? I guess I'll just say it.:o

Young people have more sensitive taste buds and like things with milder tastes. Among the beers with little flavor, Pacifico is really great. It's what you graduate to after Coors.

As I've gotten older and the taste buds have died (or was it the chili and curry that killed them?), I moved on to Bohemia and now to Negra Modelo.

Same phenomenon happens with wine. People start out liking the whites and eventually move on to the reds.

Plus, you've got to match the drink to the food, you can't let one drown out the other. Here's my preferences:

fish. shellfish: wine - sauvignon blanc, beer - pacifico

chicken or pork plain or with a white sauce: white wine - riesling, red wine - pinot noir, beer - pacifico or bohemia

beef: wine - old vine zinfandel (I'm from Lodi) or Rhone (either end of the river)

game and other very heavy meats: wine - cabernet sauvignon

Italian food: wine - sangiovese, barbera, barberesco!, barolo!

Spanish food: ribera del duero, rioja

Barbecue, Chinese, Indian - wine? never! strong beers (bohemia, negra modelo, guiness)

I'd still take a Pacifico first with a fish taco.:D

BTW: You can make every one of the wines listed above from kits. Initial outlay about $150 for equipment, kit costs about $80-110 yields about 30 fifths. Eventual cost about $4-8 per bottle for stuff that will be as good as a $20-30 bottle of wine. I've made almost every wine on the list.

I haven't tried to home brew, but several of my friends have and have gotten the same nice results.

You can usually get the equipment and kits for either hobby by looking in the yellow pages for home brewing.

You amaze your friends and have fun with a not very time-consuming, space-consuming or expensive hobby.

cheers.

...so I can read later.

What exactly is the point of having two separate systems: Allopathic and Osteopathic? As far as I know, the education is 99% similar, with most of it going towards training in standard clinical medicine. In Emergency medicine, every single DO that I know does not employ the manipulation techniques in their practice, in fact of the 20-30 DO EM physicians I have met, not a single one deviates from the allopathic treatment. Again, why bother with two systems? Just make all of the DO schools into MD schools, and it would save much confusion and frustration for all involved.

BTW our King/Drew OB residents are finishing their year of of OB at Riverside county, which is a DO program associated with Arrowhead. It was a great fit, as the Riverside program was understaffed, however the DO powers-that-be at Arrowhead wouldn't even consider a TEMPORARY acceptance of these MD residents just so they could finish their training. It strikes of pettiness to me. None of the DO Obstetrics residents used any sort of OMM technique there, and most of the faculty were MD.

...BTW our King/Drew OB residents are finishing their year of of OB at Riverside county, which is a DO program associated with Arrowhead. It was a great fit, as the Riverside program was understaffed, however the DO powers-that-be at Arrowhead wouldn't even consider a TEMPORARY acceptance of these MD residents just so they could finish their training. It strikes of pettiness to me. None of the DO Obstetrics residents used any sort of OMM technique there, and most of the faculty were MD.

More than petty... its also annoying and shameful. This type of attitude doesn't bode well for those of us who are forward looking and pragmatic. As "holistic" and "complete" physicians, DO programs should welcome the opportunity to assist fellow doctors in training. You are absolutely right in asserting that there is no rational, evidenced based reason for the exclusion of MD residents. It pretty much boils down to politics. I'd venture to say that the provision of high quality post graduate osteopathic training is a continuing challenge. I can't figure out why the DO program wouldn't want to capitalize on an opportunity to forge some lasting ties and training relationships...

-P

BTW our King/Drew OB residents are finishing their year of of OB at Riverside county, which is a DO program associated with Arrowhead. It was a great fit, as the Riverside program was understaffed, however the DO powers-that-be at Arrowhead wouldn't even consider a TEMPORARY acceptance of these MD residents just so they could finish their training. It strikes of pettiness to me. None of the DO Obstetrics residents used any sort of OMM technique there, and most of the faculty were MD.

Agree - it's petty and not very classy. However, the head of OB at ARMC/Riverside is an MD - Valenzuela. It still makes no sense.

Hey RayF,

It seems that you are absolutely right with regard to your information. As of January 2006, the medical school no longer accepts osteopathic students for senior electives. I have already contacted Ms. Lindsay and recieved a reply from her confirming this policy change as official. Please allow me some time to get in touch with leadership at my own program to figure out a way around this unfortunate change of events. I've contacted our department chief and will take this matter up with the dean of studnet affairs at the UMD School of Medicine. I appreciatr your persistence, and I will do my best to at least determine the basis for this shift in policy. I will most definitely keep the student doctor.net forum updated on any progress.


-pUsHinforDO's

Update: This policy evidently came down from the Dean's office at the SOM. . One of the associate deans in the student affairs office suggested working with them to address such changes.

Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine had a similar situation with osteopathic med students rotating at any of the University of Arizona hospitals/clinical rotations. This lasted I think a good 6 years until eventually, the state legislature inacted a law barring the University of Arizona from prohibiting osteopathic students into allopathic institutions. Took a lot of legislative work.

The law was passed primarily becasue the argument was made that the shortage of physicians in Arizona warranted the state to try and train & hopefully retain as many medical students as possible even if it meant from a private osteopathic school. University of Arizoina was forced to comply since they consume large portions of the state budget.

Now I must say, the one caveat is that techinically, it would make sense that allopathic medical students should also be allowed to train at Osteopathic facilities in AZ. Unfortunately, The Arizona school of Osteopathic medicine has no bonified training facilities allopathic students can rotate at. It is a lop sided beast for the time being and probably for the long haul since a private Osteopathic institution will probably never build a hospital and allocate major funding into a clinical hospital education based system so long as their students are able to tag along on a preceptor based rotation model, a community hospital based model, and of course reap the potential benefits of having their students participate in an allopathic institutions model.

It would seem the ones who win may be the private creditors of Osteopathic schools standing to make a lot of money by charging hight tuitions while having very little cost expense or opportunity cost to manage their students through their 3rd and 4th year clinicals. The costs of course may fall on the rotating allopathic institutions funded by the state. I mean, sure, there probably are fees charged to visiting ostepathic medical students for rotating at an allopathic institution. The fees, however, are nominal when compared to the man power & money it takes to even establish, run, and maintian a teaching hospital in its entirety. The CEOs of these private institutions may be getting away with theft.

Osteopathic institutions are not the lone exception. Many private Physician Assitant programs, private CRNA prgrams, & private nursing programs, etc. for utililize teaching institutions much the same way private osteopathic schools do. State funded allopathic clinical teaching institutions are being forced to bear the burden of not just training their own students, but many health care providers including DOs.

There's much more to this debate than meets the eye. I'm a DO and am a graduate from the Arizona School of Osteopathic medicine. I obtained an awesome education and was very happy. Yet at times, while rotating through allopathic institutions, felt this sense being an unpaid visitor. Any rebuttal would be lovely as even I don't understand the full implications but would like to.

IMO much if not all of this has to do with money. If they combined everything then they wouldn't get to collect my extra $1000 for the comlex 2PE or $500 for each board exam or the money that goes into a seperate match system.

We had the president of the AOA come to our school during our 1st year and we were all required to attend. During Q & A time someone asked about the possibility of a combined match system (which every student wants!). His reply is that it has been proposed and could be done however as long as he was president it wouldn't because we are osteopaths and we are different and need to show how different we are!

It all seems like reverse discrimination now. Once we were discriminated against (and still sometimes are) but more so we now must show our independence and discriminate against the MD's. It's so stupid.

Just to reassure you RayF, I got an interview offer from Maryland and got a personal email from one of the associate PD's. They were anything but anti-DO.

It is harder though when working with schools, not programs, however. Their policies are often the old "LCME accredited schools only". But as seen in Pittsburgh, it takes very minimal action on the part of the AOA to get the legal wheerls greased to fix this. Actually contact them, as they were the ones who got the problem fixed at Pitt. These are the things they used to argue it...

...Its been done before with student XX (and trust me, they know who)
...There are our graduates in your residency programs...Dr.s X, Y, and Z
...There are DO's on the faculty there....attending Dr's...P,Q,R,S, and T

BUT.....the AOA has to see a vested interest in the institution. They saw it in PA because they saw a bunch of dually accredited programs on the horizon.

Just check with them.
Hey man,

Enjoyed your posts thoroughly bacfk from 2005.
You still checkin' in?
Tengo una pregunta.. wanted to run it by,
I'm at Temple U. now doing my pre-med as a
non-trad 28 yr old spanish lit. major. Breezin by
my prereq's and aimed at PCOM with full force.
Q is this; how come you didn't give Albert Einstein
a fair shake when picking EM res. programs??
That's where I'm putting my eggs. Hope you get this,
I'd like to be in touch with good DO EM's now and in the future.

Cheers,

Xan