Ok, so I am serious when I ask this question. Please don't roll your eyes and tell me to grow up. I am pretty old as it is.

The question I am asking is, what do you do when it seems like the attending does not like you, does not like anything you say or do, and constantly criticizes what you say and do. Old fashioned bullying, as far as I can tell.

I am a woman, and I just spent a week with an internal med female attending and she was just as I describe above. She was nice enough to the other students and was even friendly and encouraging, and really helpful in teaching them what we need to know. But as for me, she would roll her eyes and tell me how bad I did everything, but would not teach me how to do things correctly. Sometimes, she would even say weird things like: "I really worry about you ..." which I found really creepy and weird. A few times, I professionaly asked her to show me then how to do it correctly as I would like to learn how to do it well. She just turned and walked away. I am of course, not allowed to shout after her: b&tch! altho I surely would like to. :)

So, I am a big girl and all, but still being bullied and not being taught the crucial information I need for the course is a huge drag. It also feels like she set me up to fail, and so instead, I worked double time to learn it myself and to do well in spite of her negativity.

This feels like junior high, when the b&tchy girls would harrass the nerdy girl, or whatever. A stupid immature popularity contest. But how do other people deal with this stuff??? I don't like it and find it very draining...

:(

I don't know what the situation is like at your school, but if it seems like it would help I would approach my clerkship director, or perhaps advisory dean and then clerkship director. Also, if there is an objective component of your grade I would concentrate on doing very well on that. In addition, find out who else has input on your grade, such as your resident, and do your best to get along with that person. Hopefully a few of that person's nice comments will make it to your evaluation.
Good luck.

My best advice would be to speak to the clinical clerkship director of your school and explain the situation. Perhaps you are not the first person to experience this.

Of course there is always the possibility that you are reading too much into the situation as well. Its always good to stay positive in these situations and do your best to learn the information despite the lack of teaching.

I think each student will have at least one experience like this in their time on rotations.

I would talk to the attending about it personally before even considering bringing the clerkship director into the situation. That's a big step, and the director will probably refuse to get involved until you've spoken to the attending directly anyways.

I would talk to the attending about it personally before even considering bringing the clerkship director into the situation. That's a big step, and the director will probably refuse to get involved until you've spoken to the attending directly anyways.

In my experience the clinical education people at my school are very good with situations like this and can often times offer advice about how to handle the situtation.

You arent "going over the attendings head" or anything...I certainly wouldnt recommend speaking to the DME of that hospital...bad idea. But having a talk with people who have fielded hundreds of student complaints can sometimes lead to someone giving you advice or putting the situation in a different perspective.

I would talk to this attending directly and ask her:

-"Dr. xxx, I am worried, can I ask you a question? How am I doing? I am VERY INTERESTED in YOUR opinion"

I had a similar situation when I did General Surgery. The attending was just picking on me. He:

-Called me names.

-Threw pens and books at me.

-Punch me on the shoulder, and rough up my hair.

-Made me do OPTIONAL/extra presentations.

-Called me to assist (hold the retractor) in the OR 1 minute before the Sx, then critisize me for not reading on/preparing for the case.

-Told me flat out "You will fail this clerkship" and "Do not worry, you will have another 12 weeks of surgery to get it straight, dummy."

So, I went to him and asked him...He laughed and told me that I remind him of his little brother who is very shy and very polite. He told me that he was just "pulling my chain" and "having fun with me" since I am very shy, and "surgery is not a place for the very timid and very polite." He told me that I am doing great, and I should keep doing the good work.

After the talk:

-He still "abused" me, but at least I know why - I reminded him of his little shy brother.

-He wrote me a excellent letter of reccomendation.

-He gave me a grade of A.

-He invited me for drinks (along with the residents) at the local resturant.

Good Luck.

Bring a microrecorder with you when you talk to her. But if you need to use it as evidence, say it was accidentally left on from an earlier lecture or something. Otherwise you'll look a bit paranoid. Like me. :D :eek:

I wouldn't take it personally either. You might just remind her of the girl who stole her old boyfriend or something INSANE.

I would just be upfront and ask her if you did something to offend her or ask her if there are things you can improve on. I would get it in writing - say "I need you to fill out a mid-clerckship eval" and sit down and find out what you can improve on.

If she has it out for you, it is likely due to something that has nothing to do with you. But, I would cover my a** and have her eval in writing b/c if not she is likely to tell you, you are doing everything well and then blast you on the final eval.

I would just be upfront and ask her if you did something to offend her or ask her if there are things you can improve on. I would get it in writing - say "I need you to fill out a mid-clerckship eval" and sit down and find out what you can improve on.

If she has it out for you, it is likely due to something that has nothing to do with you. But, I would cover my a** and have her eval in writing b/c if not she is likely to tell you, you are doing everything well and then blast you on the final eval.

You ain't finding out s**t, best course of action is stay away as much from her during the rotation, don't piss her off, and move on. She obviously doesn't like you for whatever reason, whether it is b/c of your own doing, or she just doesn't jive with you, and it doesn't look like you'll change her opinion. By the way, which clerkship are you on, OB/GYN? Tough it out, stick it out and move on.

You ain't finding out s**t, best course of action is stay away as much from her during the rotation, don't piss her off, and move on. She obviously doesn't like you for whatever reason, whether it is b/c of your own doing, or she just doesn't jive with you, and it doesn't look like you'll change her opinion. By the way, which clerkship are you on, OB/GYN? Tough it out, stick it out and move on.




It wasn't really my point to try and find out why she doesn't like you - imy tactic is a way to get her to fill out an eval, so when the OP gets her grade with clinical comments he/she isn't surprised by the comments portion. If she has proof that the attending said "X" then at least the attending can't say "your doing a good job" when asked now, and then write "student was terrible - shouldn't become a doctor" on the evaluation without having some explaining to do.

Wow, thanks everybody for these awesome comments! I was feeling kind of down yesterday about this and thought I would post and see what other people might say. I had no idea I would get such great feedback. :)

I think what everyone has said has some validity and I will tuck these bits of advice away for other situations. I did my best to stay out of her way, not ask too many questions, and to generally act like I didn't see anything wrong. When she snapped at me or was rude, I would act like it didn't happen. Detached. Figured it was her problem. Did what I had to do to get through. Today was our last day and I was professional, etc.

Just before I left the hospital she came up to me, touched me on the shoulder and said I had done a terrifc job, and she wished me good luck.

Go figure. I think like people have said, who knows what goes through peoples' heads. I like the surgery attending calling his student "dummy," and throwing pens at him (????). But I also liked how you went and asked him, hey! what's the deal here? and then you found out and it was all different. More excellent advice to use another time.

At my school, alot of the students roll their eyes over psychiatry and stuff, say it is a waste of time. But brother! I use this psychology stuff everyday to just get through the day. People are complex creatures ....

Thanks everyone for these comments!

Ok, so I am serious when I ask this question. Please don't roll your eyes and tell me to grow up. I am pretty old as it is.

The question I am asking is, what do you do when it seems like the attending does not like you, does not like anything you say or do, and constantly criticizes what you say and do. Old fashioned bullying, as far as I can tell.

I am a woman, and I just spent a week with an internal med female attending and she was just as I describe above. She was nice enough to the other students and was even friendly and encouraging, and really helpful in teaching them what we need to know. But as for me, she would roll her eyes and tell me how bad I did everything, but would not teach me how to do things correctly. Sometimes, she would even say weird things like: "I really worry about you ..." which I found really creepy and weird. A few times, I professionaly asked her to show me then how to do it correctly as I would like to learn how to do it well. She just turned and walked away. I am of course, not allowed to shout after her: b&tch! altho I surely would like to. :)

So, I am a big girl and all, but still being bullied and not being taught the crucial information I need for the course is a huge drag. It also feels like she set me up to fail, and so instead, I worked double time to learn it myself and to do well in spite of her negativity.

This feels like junior high, when the b&tchy girls would harrass the nerdy girl, or whatever. A stupid immature popularity contest. But how do other people deal with this stuff??? I don't like it and find it very draining...

:(


It really sounds like she saw you as a "threat." I don't know if I could call this an endemic phenomenon in medicine, but I've seen this at every hospital I've rotated through (not necessarily involving me). Let's face it, lots of them (and probably us) have unbridled superiority complexes which comes with the territory. The slightest hint that another, especially inferior (medical student), being exceeds them in any way is met with resistance. The attending in question most likely saw you as more attractive, charming, and YOUNGER, than she, thereby incurring her wrath. Take it as a compliment.

I had this happen to me during my surgery clerkship. My antagonist was the chief resident who, as far as the administration and he were concerned, was one step away from God. I was actually pretty excited to be working with him, given his reputation for being good to the students and a great teacher. Nothing was further from the truth. From day one the guy had an axe to grind and I was the target. This clown bitched me out in front of everybody and their mother, made me write notes on the weekend when the other students he had later in the year were permitted to have that time off, basically made life hellish for 3 weeks. This'll sound totally arrogant on my part, but he didn't like the fact I was more physically gifted than he. I wrestled and played football in college and still look the part. He'd grill me on what I could bench/squat and call me sh-- like "stud-boy," "meathead," and "tough guy." It made it more irksome that it was usually done in the context of female company and I wound up looking like a tool. Bah, it was only 3 weeks and I'm the better for it. Anyway, remember, take it as a compliment.

Is anyone else reading this thread and getting a bit anxious about their career choice? Don't get me wrong. I certainly expected a certain amount of politics, attitude, unfair treatment, etc as a med student. But this stuff sounds downright childish. As a 30-something mother and military veteran, I have no tolerance for this kind of treatment. I didn't get into medicine to get "hazed" by some arrogant ass that thinks I'm too pretty, too athletic, too smart, or just wants to pick on someone so I get to be "it." That's crap. How often does this happen? As someone who will likely defend herself against these types of people, am I doomed to fail these rotations? I never start trouble, but I'm not going to sit back and take it up the ass either.

Khenon,

It happens, but it happens less if you don't tolerate it. It's like when you were a kid, and there was a bigger kid who picked on you, and you popped him one on the nose... and then he left you alone. Kinda silly, but these attendings tend to be the reformed kind of sharks who only go after the little fish med student when you go bleeding in the water.

Anka

Had a somewhat similar experience on IM at military hospital. Female attending would stare at me after I said something, then say "you're wrong". Wasn't just me, did it to the other student and the interns too, but not as bad. Finally figured out she didn't understand me... my english that is. She's foreign born and I'm from a rural area... things like the word "slurred" were not translating well. She criticized my knowledge at one point. But any eval about that shouldn't hurt me too bad... got the highest grade on the shelf in my group! :D

I'm not doing rotations or anything, but I manage the newbies at work in an office environment.

I might pick on one for a few reasons:

-it's obvious they need to toughen up a bit
-it's obvious that they are more capable and so I push them harder
-they seem to have an authority problem
-because messing with a newbie's minds is fun


Perhaps your attending is doing the same :confused:
I always do this in good fun and it's very understood that I don't mean to put anyone down or offend.

I don't care who you are though...after the newbie you've worked with has made countless mistakes, fumbled around constantly, then finally does something right, it's a great source of pride. :D

Khenon,

It happens, but it happens less if you don't tolerate it. It's like when you were a kid, and there was a bigger kid who picked on you, and you popped him one on the nose... and then he left you alone. Kinda silly, but these attendings tend to be the reformed kind of sharks who only go after the little fish med student when you go bleeding in the water.

Anka
:laugh: Interesting analogy. Actually this held true for me during basic military training too. My dad told me to become a wall-flower during basic training, so I wouldn't get picked on. Well that backfired like there was no tomorrow. I was instantly picked to be a section leader, and when our original dorm chief got "recycled" I was picked to be dorm chief. I was 17 years old and literally in charge of 50 other girls. Anyway, I don't do the wall-flower thing anymore. So hopefully I don't come off as the "little fish med student." ;)

Fu*ken A. It's a dog eat dog world, even amongst the most educated.

Thats "humans" for you. Life is a Bi*ch. :mad:

More awesome comments! I like hearing other peoples' experiences, they make me feel like: ah! I am not the only one. :)

Ok, so Back34, you may be right. She was fine the first few days but then one day I can in with a super new outfit on and looked pretty good in it, (we had to get all suited up one day) and it was THAT day that she really started in on me and she did not stop. I have enough girl sense to remember, oh this is just like in junior high. So my instincts were sort of saying to me, girl you must be looking real good because she is so mad at you!

I am pretty competent and efficient, and so when people start telling me I am incompetent and ineffecient, then I know there must be something else going on.

I don't like being hazed, and no one should be in a teaching environment. When someone does it, especially in front of other people, then that person just looks like a big fat jerk. I try to let them be responsible for their own behavior and not respond to it in public. In private I might politely confront them and ask, but in public, no they can wear the results of their own behavior. Back34, your attending sounds like he probably came across as a complete jerk to the other people around him.

It's so great to hear other peoples' stories ... I definitely learn from them!

Khenon, welcome to medicine! he he. As a prior military veteran and now medical student I can tell you w/o a doubt that this stuff does go around and happen everywhere! I have encountered some of the same attitudes and at least for me as a female *this* attitude has come from other female attendings! I also thought like you that hey I am not putting up with this ****! I am too old and have been through too much but alas this peeps hold the power of the pen *and* sometimes it is just not worth it. Even if you DO (like I did) go to someone higher up and present to them what is going on...NOTHING might change. This is truly a dog eat dog world....like I have never seen. At least in the military you things coming but in medicine everyone is trying to be something they are not...or so it seems like.

Khenon, welcome to medicine! he he. As a prior military veteran and now medical student I can tell you w/o a doubt that this stuff does go around and happen everywhere! I have encountered some of the same attitudes and at least for me as a female *this* attitude has come from other female attendings! I also thought like you that hey I am not putting up with this ****! I am too old and have been through too much but alas this peeps hold the power of the pen *and* sometimes it is just not worth it. Even if you DO (like I did) go to someone higher up and present to them what is going on...NOTHING might change. This is truly a dog eat dog world....like I have never seen. At least in the military you things coming but in medicine everyone is trying to be something they are not...or so it seems like.

I'd agree with this strategy. Anything short of physical assault I wouldn't make a big deal of. You might actually earn yourself a "whiner" rep and make things doubly hard for yourself. My big take-home message garnered from my 2 years of clinical experience is don't give the pr!cks the satisfaction. Play it off like it's water off a duck's back (even though it might suck for a few weeks). Flash 'em a big "f-ck you" smile then tear them a new one on the evals.

Yup, because we also have the power of the pen at the end of each clerkship...two anal sphincters is not a good thing he he...

Khenon, welcome to medicine! he he. As a prior military veteran and now medical student I can tell you w/o a doubt that this stuff does go around and happen everywhere! I have encountered some of the same attitudes and at least for me as a female *this* attitude has come from other female attendings! I also thought like you that hey I am not putting up with this ****! I am too old and have been through too much but alas this peeps hold the power of the pen *and* sometimes it is just not worth it. Even if you DO (like I did) go to someone higher up and present to them what is going on...NOTHING might change. This is truly a dog eat dog world....like I have never seen. At least in the military you things coming but in medicine everyone is trying to be something they are not...or so it seems like.
Well, like I said in my original post, I DO expect a certain amount of this crap and plan to let most of it roll off my back. But the OP's complaint, and then the subsequent comments from a couple of other posters, just shocked me. I would likely not go to a higher-up to complain . . . I would flat out confront the attacker! I guess I just got a little worried that I will fail rotations where I'm being "bullied" and then defend myself. I would like to think that the severity of a couple of these situations is rare, but don't honestly know.

Generally speaking, I agree that these rotations are temporary and thus just getting through some of them will be necessary (no matter how miserable you are). But flat out abuse is not acceptable to me. Again . . . too old, and been through too much in life. ;)

Well, like I said in my original post, I DO expect a certain amount of this crap and plan to let most of it roll off my back. But the OP's complaint, and then the subsequent comments from a couple of other posters, just shocked me. I would likely not go to a higher-up to complain . . . I would flat out confront the attacker! I guess I just got a little worried that I will fail rotations where I'm being "bullied" and then defend myself. I would like to think that the severity of a couple of these situations is rare, but don't honestly know.

Generally speaking, I agree that these rotations are temporary and thus just getting through some of them will be necessary (no matter how miserable you are). But flat out abuse is not acceptable to me. Again . . . too old, and been through too much in life. ;)

I hear ya on the "too old, been through too much" thing. I'm a non-trad myself. In a pefect world, we would confront the pest, make our feelings known, and all would be right with the world. The hospital and its inhabitants, however, do not represent the "real world." Frankly, it wouldn't have shocked me if the Mad Hatter and March Hare were helping themselves to tea and cakes at the nurses station. P!ss off the wrong attending or chief and you might pay for it with your career. Sure, you'd shut them up in the short term, but they could easily skewer you on the evals, e.g., student was not a "team player," poor communication/interpersonal skills, was not respected by peers, demonstrated poor fund of knowlege, and this you couldn't fight. ALL newbies are guilty of the above at one time or another, but don't usually show up on the evals because the attendings understand it's all so new for us. They would, however, be totally justified to include those things depending on how the spirit moved them, red flags for any, especially competitive, residency.

We're not dealing with Joe Q. Citizen here. Many of them are overgrown, egotistical, jealous, vengeful, children. Do yourself a favor and develop an infinitely high threshhold for making a stink about something. Being bullied, in my experience, does not equate with failing the rotation.

Thankfully, said experience is the exception to the rule. Save my one experience, I haven't really had any problems with anybody.

Agreed, also taking this up with the person itself will NOT help...because if this person was reasonable from the getgo this type of assinine attitude would not happen. Yup this is usually not the norm...but it does exist and me thinks medicine is rampant with pompous individuals that think everyone should bow down to them...

Being bullied, in my experience, does not equate with failing the rotation.

Very true. Some attendings/cheifs want to bully you for "fun" (their sick way of adding humer to the rotation/their lives). Others bully you due to
a weird transference/couter-transference accident. And others want to bully you JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN.

As Back34 said, being bullied does not mean you will fail. Why? Because a bully does not want to "kill" his victim, he/she just wants to give the victim a hard time. A bully failing a student is like a bully killing his victim, and bullys do not do that. Bullys are not murderers. They are sadists.

You see, bullying is a type of defense mechanism that the bully's (the attending's) ego uses when feeling threatened by you. As long as you, the victim student, do not do anything to substanciate this preceived threat, over time the bully's ego will come to it's sences and you will not fail.

You will place yourself at a greater risk of failing a rotation if you do things that substanciate the precieved threat by the bully attending:

1-If you confront the attending directly in an angry/aggressive/threatning manner. (Yes, you should confront the bully, but do it INDIRECTLY in a passive/friendly/peace-offering manner....For example, say "Dr. xxx, I am worried, can I ask you a question if you do not mind? How am I doing? How can I be a better student? I am very interested in your opinion?).

2-If you go to a higher-up, behind the attending's back, and "tell on him" like a little kid. A very bad move.

So sit back and relax. "Enjoy" "playing" along with the bully's psyche.

Good Luck!

Thanks for all the insight into rotations. I loved the "Mad Hatter" reference! :laugh: It sounds like there can be some real nuts out there. But it also sounds like true harassment/abuse is more on the rare side, which is a relief. Having been through the military I already know I can handle being yelled at (for no reason), meaningless threats, etc. But getting books thrown at me? I'm pretty sure I'd throw it back! :laugh:

.... But getting books thrown at me? I'm pretty sure I'd throw it back! :laugh:

Hey! What's up is that laughing smilei?! It was not "funny" when it happened to me! :mad:

Sorry, just kidding with you. :meanie: By the way, I have never seen an attending/chief resident touch or throw things at Women. Yelling, sometime, but never touching/hitting Women. The "hitting" and "throwing" are exclusively reserved for us, the guys....specifically the Jocks and the "big guys" like myself. For some reason, when a guy "hits"/"smacks" another guy, it is sign of "friendship" and "playfulness"!:rolleyes:

Hey! What's up is that laughing smilei?! It was not "funny" when it happened to me! :mad:

Sorry, just kidding with you. :meanie: By the way, I have never seen an attending/chief resident touch or throw things at Women. Yelling, sometime, but never touching/hitting Women. The "hitting" and "throwing" are exclusively reserved for us, the guys....specifically the Jocks and the "big guys" like myself. For some reason, when a guy "hits"/"smacks" another guy, it is sign of "friendship" and "playfulness"!:rolleyes:
Aaahhhh . . . is this like the male bonding ritual I see between football players, where one man smacks another man on the ass as a sign of support? :laugh: I'll just assume then, that I'll bond with my female attendings/residents via gossip and hair pulling. ;)

Hey! What's up is that laughing smilei?! It was not "funny" when it happened to me! :mad:

Sorry, just kidding with you. :meanie: By the way, I have never seen an attending/chief resident touch or throw things at Women. Yelling, sometime, but never touching/hitting Women. The "hitting" and "throwing" are exclusively reserved for us, the guys....specifically the Jocks and the "big guys" like myself. For some reason, when a guy "hits"/"smacks" another guy, it is sign of "friendship" and "playfulness"!:rolleyes:

Ha! An attending head-butted me in the O.R. because I correctly answered a pimp question. Totally appropriate though because we both played football in college and it's an implicit sign of affection/"congrat."/"fu----- A!" That was one of my better days.

Aaahhhh . . . is this like the male bonding ritual I see between football players, where one man smacks another man on the ass as a sign of support? :laugh: I'll just assume then, that I'll bond with my female attendings/residents via gossip and hair pulling. ;)

Welcome to OBGYN ;)

Don't flame me if you're going into OB, I'm mostly kidding...it's a notorious running joke among most med students. They really can be ok people for the most part.