Hi,
I am curious about the program for nurse anethesists. Is this a MA degree? In what capacity do these professionals function? Do they work with anesthesiologists? What is the average salary? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Whynotme,

I am cursious to where you are in your degree, are you currently attending nursing school? Usually Nurse anethesists obtain their RN/BSN(4yr) first. Then, they will apply to the Nurse Anethesist program(2yr). After completing the two program they will undergo a internship/residency (may be different per state). Then, you would need to take your license exam.

Nurse anethesists work with the anesthesiologists but are more independent than usually thought. The nurse anethesists typically will run the patient status during the surgury with the anesthesiologist occasionally popping in to check on the progress.

Now, salary. Nurse Anethesists are paid very well and you will be able to pay off your loans and live comfortable.

The future for nurse anethesists is very bright. Due to certain issue happening in capital hill it may be that nurse anethesists are completely independant. Meaning there is the potential Anesthesiologists may fade. Hopefully they don't but it may happen.

See my post Gov't involvement under the allopatric forum at: http://www.studentdoctor.net/bbs/Forum2/HTML/000379.html

Pebbles again is very thorough in her post, but I would recommend a book that is a must read for any potential CRNA: "Watchful Care: A History of America's Nurse Anesthetists" by Marianne Bankert for a more general idea of the profession.

You must already have a BSN or equivalent and at least one year of nursing experience, preferably ICU or ER. The programs are all master's programs and they are very competitive (most classes only accept 10-12 candidates per year. You will be required to take either the GRE or GMAT depending on which program you are applying to.

Whynotme; it sounds like you are a little lost and are seeking "alternatives" to the "what if I don't get into med school scenario". There are no easy answers and I would suggest you take some time and research (which you are doing now) and make a few basic decisions first. Nurses and physicians do work together in the hospital environment, but the career paths are entirely different and being a good nurse (or a happy one)does not mean you will be a good doctor(or a happy one) and vise/versa. Once you evaluate your own goals (objectively) you will be better able to FOCUS on a particular career path and once you have focus you will succeed, whichever path you choose.
Good Luck!!!

Sherry,
A "little lost " is an understatement! http://www.studentdoctor.net/bbs/smile.gif
I started out my education in nursing and then left the program when my fiance' transferred to another school ( which did not have a nursing school)...I have some major decisions to make and am trying to decide what area I am most interested in.
Pebbles also,,,,,thanks for the great info..I will definitely check out the book... I appreciate the response from both of you...great info http://www.studentdoctor.net/bbs/smile.gif

A great field.
Isn't CNA quite competitive?
Isn?t there a requirement that you work as a BSN for like 2-3 yrs?
As for the money:
I am a PT and a patient of mine who was a CNA told me he has been out for 3 yrs and makes 100K working 40 hrs/wk!!!

After reading another post I realize I may have made an error in referring to Nurse Anesthesists as CNA's. Is that correct? What is the abrev.?

CRNA

------------------
Jenny Henderson, RN, BSN
SDN Communications, Inc.
The Student Nurse Network
e-mail jennyhenderson@medicalstudent.net

I wholeheartedly agree that medicine is a true team effort. However, let's not forget who the quarterback, field general, captain of the ship, or any other analogy you come up with me...the physician is THE leader of the health care team. I have no problems consulting with other health care professionals regarding the care of a patient. However, when it comes to the ultimate decision...the buck STOPS here. That's just the way I will approach my future career. I apologize if this offends anyone.

kundun,

Then I would suggest that you inform all your colleagues to get out into the rural and underserved areas AND LEAD!!! Right now in most rural/underserved communities IF they have health care at all, it is being provided by Family Nurse Practitioners and Physician's Assistants. Most are supervised by a "ghost" physicians hundreds of miles away if any at all, and all would appreciate the "guidance" and support of a true caring professional physician.

I am sure that all of these communities would love to have physicians in their flock. Please use your passion and potential leadership ability to assist these communities who are in dire need, and bring your friends. All will be welcome I'm sure.

Originally posted by kundun:
I wholeheartedly agree that medicine is a true team effort. However, let's not forget who the quarterback, field general, captain of the ship, or any other analogy you come up with me...the physician is THE leader of the health care team. I have no problems consulting with other health care professionals regarding the care of a patient. However, when it comes to the ultimate decision...the buck STOPS here. That's just the way I will approach my future career. I apologize if this offends anyone.

kundun,

How white of you to "consult" with those other professionals before laying down the law the way a good doctor should!

Are you really so egotistical to think that as a doctor you will know more about all of the various health care professions than all the expert professionals in those fields?

Given the name of this thread, I'll start with anesthesia....unless you are an anesthesiologist, you will not know more than a CRNA knows about anesthesia!!!!!

Hmmm, maybe a physiatrist would know more about rehab than a physical therapist.

Only a psychiatrist MIGHT know more about psychology than a PhD psychologist.

Some pediatricians would know more than a speech language pathologist knows about language development.

I could go on and on, but the point is docs know a lot more about a lot of things, but NO ONE knows it all -- chill a little and realize that other healthcare professionals will HELP you do the right thing to best help the patient.

And remember, Dr. quarterback, that Dan Marino never won the super bowl because football, like healthcare, is a team sport!

I definitely want to apologize if my post made me sound like an egocentric prick. That is definitely what I am not. I also want to say that I KNOW that a physician does not know it all and that he/she MUST rely on the help from others in the health care team. However, I still believe that in anything in life...there must be a leader. I believe that the leader in the health care TEAM is the physician.

If a leader is in place during a patient's care and a leader hat must be worn by one involved, I would hope that the leader designated would be the patient himself.

Given the name of this thread, I'll start with anesthesia....unless you are an anesthesiologist, you will not know more than a CRNA knows about anesthesia!!!!!


Physicians only have to request that anesthesia be provided. Do surgeons dictate anesthesia, even if given by a CRNA - no. While the surgeon is indeed "captain of the ship" for the patient and can request or order antibiotics to be given, request more paralytics, blah blah, blah, anesthesia is still anestheisa, and that would be CRNAs or MDAs realm.
Are surgeons more liable to be implicated in lawsuit if anesthesia is provided by a CRNA vs an anesthesiologist? No. Infact, in a court of law, CRNAs are held to the same standards that anesthesiologists are held to.

Hi,
I am curious about the program for nurse anethesists. Is this a MA degree? In what capacity do these professionals function? Do they work with anesthesiologists? What is the average salary? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks



go to aana.com

all your questions will be answered. try to find the "michael pine study" and read what was studied, the findings, the ASA's response, and the rebuttal by dr pine to the A$A. i think you may be suprised at the findings.

The Leader in the team is the person who is most knowledgable and highly trained for the situation at hand. If a pt is crumping and needs to be intubated, rescusitated and the only people there are a CRNA and Dermatologists then the CRNA is the leader here. It the pt needs Surgery then the Surgery is leader. If pt in acute renal failure the nephrology the leader. If pt needs acute intervention and the NP following the pt for that specific reason is on hand then they are the leader.

Assuming physicians are the overall leader for all situations is false and you who said that must have slim practiioner expereince at best. The leader is the person best qualified on hand to handle the present problem or situation, and has the balls to make a descision and live with that decision if it ends up with a poor outcome. A leader motivates people, runs things smoothly at hectic times. People bust assss to work for a real leader.

I have seen people with a million years of experience not lead a team effectively in intense situation. Leadership also encompases a persons interaction with others, and commnication style. Do you think you can be an effective leader if you are dick and no one respects you. No not at all.

That's right...not just a hundred, a thousand percent agreed.
Amen :D :clap:

The Leader in the team is the person who is most knowledgable and highly trained for the situation at hand. If a pt is crumping and needs to be intubated, rescusitated and the only people there are a CRNA and Dermatologists then the CRNA is the leader here. It the pt needs Surgery then the Surgery is leader. If pt in acute renal failure the nephrology the leader. If pt needs acute intervention and the NP following the pt for that specific reason is on hand then they are the leader.

Assuming physicians are the overall leader for all situations is false and you who said that must have slim practiioner expereince at best. The leader is the person best qualified on hand to handle the present problem or situation, and has the balls to make a descision and live with that decision if it ends up with a poor outcome. A leader motivates people, runs things smoothly at hectic times. People bust assss to work for a real leader.

I have seen people with a million years of experience not lead a team effectively in intense situation. Leadership also encompases a persons interaction with others, and commnication style. Do you think you can be an effective leader if you are dick and no one respects you. No not at all.

The Leader in the team is the person who is most knowledgable and highly trained for the situation at hand. If a pt is crumping and needs to be intubated, rescusitated and the only people there are a CRNA and Dermatologists then the CRNA is the leader here. It the pt needs Surgery then the Surgery is leader. If pt in acute renal failure the nephrology the leader. If pt needs acute intervention and the NP following the pt for that specific reason is on hand then they are the leader.

Assuming physicians are the overall leader for all situations is false and you who said that must have slim practiioner expereince at best. The leader is the person best qualified on hand to handle the present problem or situation, and has the balls to make a descision and live with that decision if it ends up with a poor outcome. A leader motivates people, runs things smoothly at hectic times. People bust assss to work for a real leader.

I have seen people with a million years of experience not lead a team effectively in intense situation. Leadership also encompases a persons interaction with others, and commnication style. Do you think you can be an effective leader if you are dick and no one respects you. No not at all.

Wow, common sense in a potential MDA v CRNA thread. Good post.
:thumbup:

Realizing upfront this was a CRNA quesiton I must digress..

In our hospital we have a 'rapid response team'. When a patient is noted to have a change in condition (shock, hypotension, high fever, desaturation) the team in paged and respond. The members include...a respiratory therapist, a nurse from ICU, and a PA. We have at all times 2 full time intensivists...they do not respond. IF it is determined the patient needs the unit they are callled to get involved in the case. The team composition was determined by the Intensivists who have worked so closely with the midlevels all these years. In fact..our 'house officer' is a PA or NP. that's 24/7. They are able to intubate, place central lines, dialysis caths, run the code, and pronounce death...you get the idea. (I learned to intubate in the OR. I'm not sure if it was a anesteiologist or a CRNA who taught me. I still became successful in the technique and the process..) The very doctors who used to (and perhaps still do) think that mid levels are not a suitable replacement are the same guys who get to sleep most nites because the midlevel is keeping watch. This has happened because of motiviation and the fact that the physicians 'leaders' in our hospital recognize that being a doctor doesn't mean you are are most qualified. It's being the person who knows the most or has the most experience with any given situation. I work now with a brilliant ivy league doc. He is also the kindest person i've met and often uses the people around him to make the best decisions and is likely the most respected doc in our community and hospital. He has told me that some of the younger doctors will not be successful until they realize that medicine is a very humble profession. As an NP there have been days i've been consulted for renal failure and thought 'how could the doctor not have figured this out on his own'. The next day i've had my own patient and needed to call on a consultant and realized the answer was there all along i just didn't see it. We all need each other and the patient needs everyone...from the lady who keeps the room clean to the person who makes sure the doses of antibiotics are correct. I would also say that leader would be too strong a word and in fact would say the there is often someone who 'manages' the case. I've found that the manager is often the insurance company.

Realizing upfront this was a CRNA quesiton I must digress..

In our hospital we have a 'rapid response team'. When a patient is noted to have a change in condition (shock, hypotension, high fever, desaturation) the team in paged and respond. The members include...a respiratory therapist, a nurse from ICU, and a PA. We have at all times 2 full time intensivists...they do not respond. IF it is determined the patient needs the unit they are callled to get involved in the case. The team composition was determined by the Intensivists who have worked so closely with the midlevels all these years. In fact..our 'house officer' is a PA or NP. that's 24/7. They are able to intubate, place central lines, dialysis caths, run the code, and pronounce death...you get the idea. (I learned to intubate in the OR. I'm not sure if it was a anesteiologist or a CRNA who taught me. I still became successful in the technique and the process..) The very doctors who used to (and perhaps still do) think that mid levels are not a suitable replacement are the same guys who get to sleep most nites because the midlevel is keeping watch. This has happened because of motiviation and the fact that the physicians 'leaders' in our hospital recognize that being a doctor doesn't mean you are are most qualified. It's being the person who knows the most or has the most experience with any given situation. I work now with a brilliant ivy league doc. He is also the kindest person i've met and often uses the people around him to make the best decisions and is likely the most respected doc in our community and hospital. He has told me that some of the younger doctors will not be successful until they realize that medicine is a very humble profession. As an NP there have been days i've been consulted for renal failure and thought 'how could the doctor not have figured this out on his own'. The next day i've had my own patient and needed to call on a consultant and realized the answer was there all along i just didn't see it. We all need each other and the patient needs everyone...from the lady who keeps the room clean to the person who makes sure the doses of antibiotics are correct. I would also say that leader would be too strong a word and in fact would say the there is often someone who 'manages' the case. I've found that the manager is often the insurance company. More common sense. I am in tears.
:thumbup:

Excellent Lizzied!

What a breath of fresh air! Hearing the truth is such a refreshing experience isn't it? Especially around these parts. ;)

Thanks for the reminder! :thumbup:

I definitely want to apologize if my post made me sound like an egocentric prick. That is definitely what I am not. I also want to say that I KNOW that a physician does not know it all and that he/she MUST rely on the help from others in the health care team. However, I still believe that in anything in life...there must be a leader. I believe that the leader in the health care TEAM is the physician.

No offense taken by me as I think you might have the law on your side if I'm not mistaken.

Kinda funny - y'all drug up a 5-yr old thread and ran with it.

Kinda funny - y'all drug up a 5-yr old thread and ran with it.
Drug up... hehe :meanie:

last post by OP...November 2001....
holy smokes.
it really is a five year old thread.

last post by OP...November 2001....
holy smokes.
it really is a five year old thread.

Your post was still excellent lizzied2003. Nitecap's was also.
:thumbup:

Maybe those two posts should be referenced whenever someone starts teh MDA v CRNA debate.

Interesting side note: I recently reading in the American Journal of Nursing (Volume 105(5), May 2005, pp 28-29) that they are entertaining the idea of adding a semester of study to CRNA programs and granting a clinical doctorate. According to Frank Maziarski, MS, CLNC, CRNA, president of the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists, "The move from master’s degrees to doctorates may be less of a problem for nurse anesthetists than for other advanced practice specialties; many nurse anesthetist programs involve 30 months of course work and clinical experience. 'Some programs may just need to add on another semester in order to change to a doctoral program'"

thanks . :)

I wholeheartedly agree that medicine is a true team effort. However, let's not forget who the quarterback, field general, captain of the ship, or any other analogy you come up with me...the physician is THE leader of the health care team. I have no problems consulting with other health care professionals regarding the care of a patient. However, when it comes to the ultimate decision...the buck STOPS here. That's just the way I will approach my future career. I apologize if this offends anyone.

Yes spoken like a true general!

I definitely want to apologize if my post made me sound like an egocentric prick. That is definitely what I am not. I also want to say that I KNOW that a physician does not know it all and that he/she MUST rely on the help from others in the health care team. However, I still believe that in anything in life...there must be a leader. I believe that the leader in the health care TEAM is the physician.

I think kundun is just trying to say, that somebody must lead, when a desicion has to be made. While it is true that many allied health professionals help, they are not ultimately responsible for the patient, the physician is. I think kundun is just trying to say, that physician is the leader and has the ability to delegate responsbility to other professionals for certain aspects of his/her care. Quite frankly I don't think that anyone else in the health care system has the training to conduct all aspects of patients care like a physican does. Moreover, I don't think that many allied health professionals would want the extent of responsiblity for the patient that physican has. However, many people get touchy when others say that a physician is a leader. Well he is, he does the most and is ultimately responsible for the patient. And keep in mind the psychologist might know more about psychology then a non-psychiatrist physician, but that's about it. They don't know much about medical or surgical management, or even basic anatomy or physiology. Doctor as the leader can delegate the responsibility and doctors do that, in certain aspects they are not as well versed. So there must be a leader like kundun said. I think confusion occurs when doctors look down upon other health professionals when indeed they help them alot and allow doctors do what they do best, which is diagnose, and come up with a treatment plan. But undisputedly the doctor is a leader when it comes to medically related issues. However, the ultimate leaders in a large hospital are CEO's, not doctors, however they deal with business, not medical management issues.

Physician = Team leader, one responsible for any and all decisions, one who will be held liable for any and all things that go wrong.

Nurse= Follower of physician protocols/instructions, provider of care dictated by physicians.

Jeez.....why can't everyone just realize and accept this.

Not exactly true in all situations when talking about anesthesia. CRNA's are the sole providers in 70 counties in Texas alone. There are no protocols, its you there at thats it. No one to call if you need anything, no Anesthesia MD's for maybe miles. Get your facts straight before you step up to the plate kid.

Not exactly true in all situations when talking about anesthesia. CRNA's are the sole providers in 70 counties in Texas alone. There are no protocols, its you there at thats it. No one to call if you need anything, no Anesthesia MD's for maybe miles. Get your facts straight before you step up to the plate kid.


My facts are straight, kid. I feel sorry for those folks in those 70 counties, though. :scared:

My facts are straight, kid. I feel sorry for those folks in those 70 counties, though. :scared:

So what's the safety record of CRNA's? Are you feeling sorry because it's good or bad? :confused:

My facts are straight, kid. I feel sorry for those folks in those 70 counties, though. :scared:


Google or Yahoo! the Michael Pine, MD study on outcomes of patients with regards to anesthesia providers. Also read the ASA's response and Dr. Pine's response back to the ASA.

Google or Yahoo! the Michael Pine, MD study on outcomes of patients with regards to anesthesia providers. Also read the ASA's response and Dr. Pine's response back to the ASA.


Propaganda.

Propaganda.

Where does "evidence-based" end and "propaganda" begin?

Google or Yahoo! the Michael Pine, MD study on outcomes of patients with regards to anesthesia providers. Also read the ASA's response and Dr. Pine's response back to the ASA.


If someone did a study showing that PAs who were allowed to do coronary artery bypass surgery (alone/unassisted) had no less patients die on them then fellowship trained cardiothroacic surgeons... Would you then choose to have the PA do your surgery over the surgeon? :rolleyes:

Check it out; another victory for patients!

http://www.asahq.org/Washington/OBAdecision.pdf

If someone did a study showing that PAs who were allowed to do coronary artery bypass surgery (alone/unassisted) had no less patients die on them then fellowship trained cardiothroacic surgeons... Would you then choose to have the PA do your surgery over the surgeon? :rolleyes:

Well, that's kinda a loaded question. Surgery is a mechanic skill; the difficult part in my opinion is the before and after skill that requires a heap of thinking ability.

Physician = Team leader, one responsible for any and all decisions, one who will be held liable for any and all things that go wrong.

Nurse= Follower of physician protocols/instructions, provider of care dictated by physicians.

Jeez.....why can't everyone just realize and accept this.

Hey in many places an NP fuctions as *ultimately responsible* for their patients. There's no physician supervising them either.

Hey in many places an NP fuctions as *ultimately responsible* for their patients. There's no physician supervising them either.

Correct me if I'm wrong...but I think that NPs still must have a 'collaborating physician' that they must direct complicated cases which are outside of their limited scope of practice.

Correct me if I'm wrong...but I think that NPs still must have a 'collaborating physician' that they must direct complicated cases which are outside of their limited scope of practice.

Not in all states. However, when I finish NP school, I'd certainly refer out when appropriate.

Well, that's kinda a loaded question. Surgery is a mechanic skill; the difficult part in my opinion is the before and after skill that requires a heap of thinking ability.

(?) I'm not quite sure what you mean. Of course it is a loaded question.. How is surgery any different than anesthesia in that regard? It takes an incredible amount of thinking (and proper training) to manage and be responsible for a medically comprimised/unstable patient undergoing extensive surgery. One that can most appropriatly be attained through a formal education in medicine and years of specialty training.

Although a nurse can be trained to perform the "mechanics" of anesthesia delivery and can handle simple cases probably without much difficulty. Most patients if given the choice.. as I was pointing out would probably prefer a doctor with a more extensive training background in the area managing their life support systems... especially if med compromised or highly unstable having a cabg or the like.

Although a nurse can be trained to perform the "mechanics" of anesthesia delivery and can handle simple cases probably without much difficulty....


Since you haven't had alot of experience with CRNAs and I don't know jack about dentistry other than my best friend just graduated......Here's an analogy for you:

Couldn't you train a damn monkey to scrape tarter off people's teeth or what ? Can't be that hard right, scrape here, shot there. WTF is the big deal?

That analogy has about as much truth behind it in regards to dentistry as your above statement to anesthesia / CRNAs so stick to your field and I'll stick to mine. We have over 100 years of proven track record indeed doing "simple cases" and much, much more and don't plan on quitting providing anesthesia anytime soon.

Couldn't you train a damn monkey to scrape tarter off people's teeth or what ? Can't be that hard right, scrape here, shot there. WTF is the big deal?


We DO!! They are called Hygenists.. :laugh: :laugh: and by the way.. most of them are quite easy on the eye to boot!


(Im only kidding) ;)

We have over 100 years of proven track record indeed doing "simple cases" and much, much more and don't plan on quitting providing anesthesia anytime soon.

So explain to me the need for anesthesiologists? :rolleyes:

Why don't we just eradicate all ACGME anesthesiology training programs and and just allow CRNAs to take their place if you think there is no difference whatsoever between the two..

So explain to me the need for anesthesiologists? :rolleyes:

Why don't we just eradicate all ACGME anesthesiology training programs and and just allow CRNAs to take their place if you think there is no difference whatsoever between the two..


I don't think there is a not a need for anesthesiologists. However, one must focus on the "need." When there is a need, CRNAs, NPs, PAs, Acupuncturists, PT assistants, OT assistants, etc., etc., seem to appear to fill that need.

Whynotme,

I am cursious to where you are in your degree, are you currently attending nursing school? Usually Nurse anethesists obtain their RN/BSN(4yr) first. Then, they will apply to the Nurse Anethesist program(2yr). After completing the two program they will undergo a internship/residency (may be different per state). Then, you would need to take your license exam.

Nurse anethesists work with the anesthesiologists but are more independent than usually thought. The nurse anethesists typically will run the patient status during the surgury with the anesthesiologist occasionally popping in to check on the progress.

Now, salary. Nurse Anethesists are paid very well and you will be able to pay off your loans and live comfortable.

The future for nurse anethesists is very bright. Due to certain issue happening in capital hill it may be that nurse anethesists are completely independant. Meaning there is the potential Anesthesiologists may fade. Hopefully they don't but it may happen.

See my post Gov't involvement under the allopatric forum at: http://www.studentdoctor.net/bbs/Forum2/HTML/000379.html


can anyone explain to me the future of anethestits and the future of it. The link doesnt work btw.

My facts are straight, kid. I feel sorry for those folks in those 70 counties, though. :scared:

Why do you feel sorry for them?

I think the folks in those places are glad that those NP's and CRNA's are willing to stay in those communities and practice. Not all sick people live in NYC, L.A., Chicago, Philadelphia, Miami, Dallas and Houston.

I would rather they have the care of a trained CRNA or NP than no care at all.

Physician = Team leader, one responsible for any and all decisions, one who will be held liable for any and all things that go wrong.

Nurse= Follower of physician protocols/instructions, provider of care dictated by physicians.

Jeez.....why can't everyone just realize and accept this.

I second that...

How are you doing Orchard??

Propaganda.
:laugh:

Why do you feel sorry for them?

I think the folks in those places are glad that those NP's and CRNA's are willing to stay in those communities and practice. Not all sick people live in NYC, L.A., Chicago, Philadelphia, Miami, Dallas and Houston.

I would rather they have the care of a trained CRNA or NP than no care at all.

Not me.

That's one of the WORST excuses I've heard (and I've heard it before a lot). That's like saying "I'm going to let Clem at Buba's Mini-mart and Lube fix my $100,000 Porsche because I don't want to tow it to a bigger city."

It's not like we're in Uzbekistan. We need to train more DOCTORS and not people who want to play doctor.

Not me.

That's one of the WORST excuses I've heard (and I've heard it before a lot). That's like saying "I'm going to let Clem at Buba's Mini-mart and Lube fix my $100,000 Porsche because I don't want to tow it to a bigger city."

I'm not fully awake yet, but how does your answer have any relation to the quote above it?

It's not like we're in Uzbekistan. We need to train more DOCTORS and not people who want to play doctor.

I'm an FNP student and I don't intend to play doctor. If that was my goal I'd have gone to medical school. I just don't see the sense in spending years and a lot of money on learning a system based on an ancient science, and one that people are turning away from. Unfortunately, I've got to learn more of it in order to do what I want.

And is it true that the death rate drops when doctors are on strike...sorry, just could not resist :laugh:

Not me.

That's one of the WORST excuses I've heard (and I've heard it before a lot). That's like saying "I'm going to let Clem at Buba's Mini-mart and Lube fix my $100,000 Porsche because I don't want to tow it to a bigger city."

It's not like we're in Uzbekistan. We need to train more DOCTORS and not people who want to play doctor.
Last time I checked there were no practicimg CRNAs and NPs in Uzbekistan or any other "Crapistan" in Central Asia. You'd be glad to get some "medicine" from some cammel's arse, given to you by shaman :laugh:
But why such bitterness towards advanced practice nurses? I suppose you are still a premed, or may be a PA? I don't see such negativity in a real Wolrd.
Once you realize that there are more patients to go around than you could possibly attend to safely, all this rubbish disappears. What is this idealistic view that only MD or D.O. can provide quality care? Most plastic seorgens I know prefer to use CRNAs in their practices. Those CRNAs aren't cheap, in case you're wondering. Many D.Os amd even M.Ds have created partnerships with NPs, once they realized the potential of multiplying their practice growth, which is based on cooperation, not competition. In today's health care environment ppl are to busy trying to "make it." Most doctors don't even have time to engage in this pi$$ing contests, and ego-mania.
Good Luck

I'm not fully awake yet, but how does your answer have any relation to the quote above it?



I'm an FNP student and I don't intend to play doctor. If that was my goal I'd have gone to medical school. I just don't see the sense in spending years and a lot of money on learning a system based on an ancient science, and one that people are turning away from. Unfortunately, I've got to learn more of it in order to do what I want.

And is it true that the death rate drops when doctors are on strike...sorry, just could not resist :laugh:

I'm going to be easy on you until you are fully awake.

I hope you weren't up late spending time "learning a system based on an ancient science."

This truly has be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen. I suppose things such as anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, and immunology are a waste of time. Nobody really needs those sciences to manipulate the bodies’ structure or chemistry in medicine. Are you for real??

See, this is the problem with a lot of the mid-level practitioners. You delude yourself into believing that you can offer great health care without truly understanding what you are doing. It is impossible to understand all of the complexities of the human machine without learning and understanding the composite sciences.

The problem that I see with a lot of mid-levels is that they don't know how much they don't know. This is especially true of the younger ones. It's frightening.

BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).

The reality is that most NPs, CRNAs and PAs desire all the rights, privileges, and respect that a physician has without doing the same amount of work. It's true; people admit that on this forum and in real life. Ask any NP or PA that has gone through medical school. I personally know many people that have gone through both and will openly admit 1) they really wanted to be a doctor but for whatever reason didn't do it 2) they were completely amazed how much they didn't know.

The worst enemies for the midlevels are people like me who have seen both sides. In my experience, a lot of these people (me included) are the ones lobbing to reign in the expanding rights of midlevels because they realize first hand how frightening it is.

Having said all of that, I do not hate midlevels. I think they can fulfill a need in healthcare. The problem is that they frequently get too big for their britches and want to do more with less supervision than they should. It's human nature.

Please do me (us) a favor: Do not come on to studentDOCTOR.net and insult all of us that have sacrificed so much time, money, energy, and effort of our lives to pursue medicine and tell us that we're learning an outdated "ancient" science and that you can safely manage our patients after undergoing a two year program that is not even in the same plane as medical school..

I'm going to be easy on you until you are fully awake.

I hope you weren't up late spending time "learning a system based on an ancient science."

This truly has be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen. I suppose things such as anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, and immunology are a waste of time. Nobody really needs those sciences to manipulate the bodies’ structure or chemistry in medicine. Are you for real??

See, this is the problem with a lot of the mid-level practitioners. You delude yourself into believing that you can offer great health care without truly understanding what you are doing. It is impossible to understand all of the complexities of the human machine without learning and understanding the composite sciences.

The problem that I see with a lot of mid-levels is that they don't know how much they don't know. This is especially true of the younger ones. It's frightening.

BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).

The reality is that most NPs, CRNAs and PAs desire all the rights, privileges, and respect that a physician has without doing the same amount of work. It's true; people admit that on this forum and in real life. Ask any NP or PA that has gone through medical school. I personally know many people that have gone through both and will openly admit 1) they really wanted to be a doctor but for whatever reason didn't do it 2) they were completely amazed how much they didn't know.

The worst enemies for the midlevels are people like me who have seen both sides. In my experience, a lot of these people (me included) are the ones lobbing to reign in the expanding rights of midlevels because they realize first hand how frightening it is.

Having said all of that, I do not hate midlevels. I think they can fulfill a need in healthcare. The problem is that they frequently get too big for their britches and want to do more with less supervision than they should. It's human nature.

Please do me (us) a favor: Do not come on to studentDOCTOR.net and insult all of us that have sacrificed so much time, money, energy, and effort of our lives to pursue medicine and tell us that we're learning an outdated "ancient" science and that you can safely manage our patients after undergoing a two year program that is not even in the same plane as medical school.

I couldn't have said it better myself because I have not done both...or even one yet. (in process) Few on this site have done both.

Please do me (us) a favor: Do not come on to studentDOCTOR.net and insult all of us that have sacrificed so much time, money, energy, and effort of our lives....


Hey chief..Just a lowly SRNA here, but while this is SDN, realize this the "Medical Background - Clinician" forum that is specifically listed for RN/NP/PA/PT participants.

Just FYI.

Hey chief..Just a lowly SRNA here, but while this is SDN, realize this the "Medical Background - Clinician" forum that is specifically listed for RN/NP/PA/PT participants.

Just FYI.

You're right.

If you have any questions about pre-med, MCAT, medical school admissions, medical school basic sciences or clinical rotations, medical licensing exams or post-graduate medical education for people with medical backgrounds I would be glad to answer them. Seriously.

"Forums for doc and pre-doc students with backgrounds in the health professions."

I'm going to be easy on you until you are fully awake.

I hope you weren't up late spending time "learning a system based on an ancient science."

This truly has be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen. I suppose things such as anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, and immunology are a waste of time. Nobody really needs those sciences to manipulate the bodies’ structure or chemistry in medicine. Are you for real??

Yes, I’m for real. You can ask my physician clients…which have included a Chief of Orthopedic Surgery.

Today is Thursday and the last day of the week for us here in Asia. I think it was Abe Lincoln who stated something to the effect that, "I can not let your lack of knowledge, sir, take precedent over my grasp of the subject." With that in mind, nothing is more fitting today than for me to start off the weekend by enlightening you a tad.

Medical science...(well it's not really a science, it just employs the sciences) is so "ancient" that if say, a physicist went to a medical seminar, he'd think he had stepped back in time.

I guess if I say, “Newtonian-reductionistic-materialistic paradigm,” that you would start to get a handle on things. While this approach has some value it is certainly limited, and to base an entire system on it is about the dumbest thing I can think of. Do I need to elaborate anymore here?

See, this is the problem with a lot of the mid-level practitioners. You delude yourself into believing that you can offer great health care without truly understanding what you are doing.

“Great health care” is being offered safely by mid-levels as the research shows. “Great medical care,” however, I’ll leave to physicians as it’s not what I want to do. “Truly understanding medical care" will be your role as a physician; “health care” is my focus.

It is impossible to understand all of the complexities of the human machine without learning and understanding the composite sciences.

Your use of the word “machine” means so much here doesn’t it? This is one reason so many patients go elsewhere. They don’t want a “mechanic.” They prefer a “gardener.” I hope you can figure that one out. I guess this is what you get when you start off studying dead people instead of the living!

You also will never understand all the complexities of the human being by focusing only on the hard sciences.

The problem that I see with a lot of mid-levels is that they don't know how much they don't know. This is especially true of the younger ones. It's frightening.

I see this everywhere, even by physicians who should have referred out but did not.

BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).

It’s always interesting to know your background as it gives me insight into your way of thinking. My background is 31 years as a nurse in many practice settings. I also have studied Asian Medicine and I’m a Zen Shiatsu therapist. Also hold a masters in psych nursing and an MBA. Now, I’m an FNP student.

Your goals and desires were not being met by your NP program. That is fine as you should go where you want to go. However, you want a “deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically.” That’s fine also if that’s what you want, although you are limiting yourself somewhat. If you want a real challenge, look into the mind-body approach.

I can’t understand why people keep comparing NP training to physician training. It’s not supposed to compare as it’s a different level of training! What’s so difficult about this concept?

Ask any NP or PA that has gone through medical school. I personally know many people that have gone through both and will openly admit 1) they really wanted to be a doctor but for whatever reason didn't do it 2) they were completely amazed how much they didn't know.

And even when they graduate they are still wandering in the wilderness! They are now fully trained, as you say, as a “mechanic.” Mechanics need tools and electricity to do their job. You can’t do your job if the electricity goes out, can you?

The worst enemies for the midlevels are people like me who have seen both sides. In my experience, a lot of these people (me included) are the ones lobbing to reign in the expanding rights of midlevels because they realize first hand how frightening it is.

Instead of fighting a losing battle, why don’t you fight to get more care to the people who are falling through the cracks. It would even be nice if we had an ARMY medic in every square mile to do routine health checks...or would they not be trained to a sufficently high level in your opinion?

Please do me (us) a favor: Do not come on to studentDOCTOR.net and insult all of us that have sacrificed so much time, money, energy, and effort of our lives to pursue medicine and tell us that we're learning an outdated "ancient" science and that you can safely manage our patients after undergoing a two year program that is not even in the same plane as medical school.

I’m not trying to insult you but to educate you. As I said earlier, NPs “safely” manage patients and have the research and track record to prove it. Does “evidence-based” mean any thing here?

In regards to your sacrifices, I offer the following:

O.T. Bonnett, M.D., author of Confessions of a Healer: The Truth From An Unconventional Family Doctor, in talking about his peers, stated that, "Unfortunately, like most physicians, they were trapped into rigid patterns of thought, belief, and action bought on through years of the intellectual brainwashing that has passed for medical education. Actually, doctors are poorly educated! Their education consists of training along a very narrow path, and they wear huge intellectual blinders as they go. Anything appearing in their intellectual peripheral vision is suspect, frightening, and likely to be ignored."

More from Dr. Bonnett..."The doctors finally graduate and finish training but with little real skill in applying it in life situations, for they have been trained not to get close to or familiar with their patients. Highly trained as they may be, they are virtually isolated from feelings, the humanity of their patients, and the world in general. Many new doctors are, therefore, both frightened and defensive."

And more..."Physicians have a vested interest in rejecting new ideas. Part of the reason for this is that most doctors have little training in deductive thinking. What serves as thought is mostly recalling, with accuracy, what has been previously memorized."

And finally..."One of the most compelling reasons physicians reject new ideas is fear of change and the need to protect their block of medical information, which serves as their clearest bridge to others and the world."

Physicians are also socially ignorant as they have their nose buried in books during a formative period in their life when they should be out hiking across Europe or engaged in other fun activities! While in business school, a fellow student and recently retired thoracic surgeon, admitted that he had no social skills outside the operating suite. "I'm useless at parties," he told me!

Some other things for you to think about: "The American health-care system is at once the most expensive and the most inadequate system in the developed world," according to the New England Journal of Medicine.

Medical errors rank as the eighth leading cause of death in the United States – higher than motor vehicle accidents (43,458), breast cancer (42,297), or AIDS (16,516) - Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, 2002

One in five Americans (22%) report that they or a family member have experienced a medical error of some kind. This translates into an estimated 22.8 million people with at least one family member who experienced a mistake in a doctor's office or hospital. - The Commonwealth Fund, 2002

If our healthcare system is so great, why are we ranked 37th of all countries studied (World Health Organization) as to the health of the population, cost of health care, allocation of public and private funds for healthcare and the ratio of our current state of healthcare compared to what we could be. Even Cuba was ahead of us!

I feel better now, thanks. Hope I’ve given you something to think about.

[QUOTE=schutzhund]
BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).

Curious...how long did you actually 'work' as a nurse . Also, did your coworkers throw a huge party before you left or afterwards? I believe if you are this self righteous and all knowing as a MS III you must have been a real treat as a nurse.
I subspecialize as an NP and i work alongside (not for) a brilliant ivy league physician. What makes him wonderful and respected is his ablility to take care of the 'patient' as a human being first. Everything else follows. He is able to actually stand back when things don't go well and look at what he may have done wrong rather than looking for someone with less knowledge or education to blame. Thats doctoring.

Hey Schutzhund!
I think you've picked the wrong fight. You'll never get respect if you won't give one to others. You'll never lift yourself up by putting down others. You may score some cheap points, and try to hotshot people with your status, but with such bitterness and almost hatfulness you'll never make it big and far in the real World. I agree that there are some so-called mid-levels, who take upon themselves way more than they could handle, but so there are many docs. As you said...it's a human nature, albeit for some, T.G. I did study in medical school also for two semesters. I did fine, but I realized that I was just pacifying my ego. I was already helping ppl as an RN x 15 yrs, and as a licensed acupuncturist in private practice. At some point, I guess, I had that male version of PMS :laugh:, and felt underachieved, but it was only in my quite detached from the reality mind. My patients, almost all of them, love me, and ask for me by name. That gives me a lot more satisfaction, than say parading my "MD" in their faces, and to make me feel how "great" and knowledgeble I am. So your sacrifice should be respected, but it was your personal choice, and possibly an ego trip. But you could have as many degrees as thermometer, it still won't make you a better practritioner, and certainly not a better person.

Good Luck in whatever you do :)

I'm going to be easy on you until you are fully awake.

I hope you weren't up late spending time "learning a system based on an ancient science."

This truly has be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen. I suppose things such as anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, and immunology are a waste of time. Nobody really needs those sciences to manipulate the bodies’ structure or chemistry in medicine. Are you for real??

See, this is the problem with a lot of the mid-level practitioners. You delude yourself into believing that you can offer great health care without truly understanding what you are doing. It is impossible to understand all of the complexities of the human machine without learning and understanding the composite sciences.

The problem that I see with a lot of mid-levels is that they don't know how much they don't know. This is especially true of the younger ones. It's frightening.

BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).

The reality is that most NPs, CRNAs and PAs desire all the rights, privileges, and respect that a physician has without doing the same amount of work. It's true; people admit that on this forum and in real life. Ask any NP or PA that has gone through medical school. I personally know many people that have gone through both and will openly admit 1) they really wanted to be a doctor but for whatever reason didn't do it 2) they were completely amazed how much they didn't know.

The worst enemies for the midlevels are people like me who have seen both sides. In my experience, a lot of these people (me included) are the ones lobbing to reign in the expanding rights of midlevels because they realize first hand how frightening it is.

Having said all of that, I do not hate midlevels. I think they can fulfill a need in healthcare. The problem is that they frequently get too big for their britches and want to do more with less supervision than they should. It's human nature.

Please do me (us) a favor: Do not come on to studentDOCTOR.net and insult all of us that have sacrificed so much time, money, energy, and effort of our lives to pursue medicine and tell us that we're learning an outdated "ancient" science and that you can safely manage our patients after undergoing a two year program that is not even in the same plane as medical school.

kundun,

How white of you to "consult" with those other professionals before laying down the law the way a good doctor should!

Are you really so egotistical to think that as a doctor you will know more about all of the various health care professions than all the expert professionals in those fields?

Given the name of this thread, I'll start with anesthesia....unless you are an anesthesiologist, you will not know more than a CRNA knows about anesthesia!!!!!

Hmmm, maybe a physiatrist would know more about rehab than a physical therapist.

Only a psychiatrist MIGHT know more about psychology than a PhD psychologist.

Some pediatricians would know more than a speech language pathologist knows about language development.

I could go on and on, but the point is docs know a lot more about a lot of things, but NO ONE knows it all -- chill a little and realize that other healthcare professionals will HELP you do the right thing to best help the patient.

And remember, Dr. quarterback, that Dan Marino never won the super bowl because football, like healthcare, is a team sport!

I understand your analogy; however, I disagree with at least one point. Most pediatricians (with possibly the exception of a few academic developmental pediatricians) know very little about language development. As a whole, speech-language pathologists are the experts on speech and language development. There are psychologists that are also experts in the field but it is because of pediatricians general lack of knowledge regarding speech and language development that intervention for many children comes so late.

Curious...how long did you actually 'work' as a nurse . Also, did your coworkers throw a huge party before you left or afterwards? I believe if you are this self righteous and all knowing as a MS III you must have been a real treat as a nurse.
I subspecialize as an NP and i work alongside (not for) a brilliant ivy league physician. What makes him wonderful and respected is his ablility to take care of the 'patient' as a human being first. Everything else follows. He is able to actually stand back when things don't go well and look at what he may have done wrong rather than looking for someone with less knowledge or education to blame. Thats doctoring.

Edit: Sorry shultz.... you sounded like someone I met on one of my rotations.

schultzhund - DO NOT ENGAGE ZENMAN! He has this idea that western medicine is outdated and the cr@p he spews is REAL medicine - don't believe it. The minute he is really sick he will be in the ER to get western medical care - the only tragedy is that he may have convinced a patient to ignore sound medical advice and take a bunch or herbs or meditate away the tumor....

Check this guys posts - he is a nut job. I am a medical student and I hang out here sometimes because I am also a nurse and the DO forums don't have zenman :laugh:

Mid-level providers are just what the title indicates and they will also be my colleagues. I have worked in the ER as an RN with some dedicated NPs and PAs - they do a great job. Every PA, NP and doc I have worked with knew when to step back and consult - can't know it all.

Unfortunately, people like zenman leave the impression that as an NP he will be able to meet all of his patients needs and that because he was a nurse for 31 years his experience makes the difference.

What a load of cr@p - my first month of med school removed that delusion. I could understand the basic problems associated with a disease such as CHF and the common treatments as a nurse because I used that set of skills everyday. I realized how little I knew as I dove into neuro, biochem, physiology, and anatomy. I look forward to developing a new set of skills built on that science thing zenman detest. Some how he will be able to understand that defects of carnitine acyltransferase cause muscle weakness and he will have to understand the difference between beta-oxidation and glycolysis and the problems his patient will experience. oh wait that's a science thing - just give the patient some herbs and meditate away that metabolitic disorder.

okay - I am done with this rant

schultzhund - DO NOT ENGAGE ZENMAN! He has this idea that western medicine is outdated and the cr@p he spews is REAL medicine - don't believe it. The minute he is really sick he will be in the ER to get western medical care - the only tragedy is that he may have convinced a patient to ignore sound medical advice and take a bunch or herbs or meditate away the tumor....

Check this guys posts - he is a nut job. I am a medical student and I hang out here sometimes because I am also a nurse and the DO forums don't have zenman :laugh:

Mid-level providers are just what the title indicates and they will also be my colleagues. I have worked in the ER as an RN with some dedicated NPs and PAs - they do a great job. Every PA, NP and doc I have worked with knew when to step back and consult - can't know it all.

Unfortunately, people like zenman leave the impression that as an NP he will be able to meet all of his patients needs and that because he was a nurse for 31 years his experience makes the difference.

What a load of cr@p - my first month of med school removed that delusion. I could understand the basic problems associated with a disease such as CHF and the common treatments as a nurse because I used that set of skills everyday. I realized how little I knew as I dove into neuro, biochem, physiology, and anatomy. I look forward to developing a new set of skills built on that science thing zenman detest. Some how he will be able to understand that defects of carnitine acyltransferase cause muscle weakness and he will have to understand the difference between beta-oxidation and glycolysis and the problems his patient will experience. oh wait that's a science thing - just give the patient some herbs and meditate away that metabolitic disorder.

okay - I am done with this rant
Well said.
Fueg-RN/EMT-P/MSIII DO2B

I believe he worked as a nurse/floor director untill 2003 when he started medical school. He has also worked as a paramedic and is an ACLS instructors. HE was one of the people selected for training the core body of ACLS instrutors of for Ireland. That should help shed some light on to the credentials of this individual.


But that's not what i mean...i'm not asking about his credentials. Teaching ACLS or being a core instructor show dedication and i'm sure only boosted his application. But i meant worked as a nurse (no not a floor director either).
By the way...no need to answer. it's not really my business. I just wanted to clarify what i meant.
It's very discouraging to read a post about how much one knows as a MS in relation to all that a nurse doesn't or a midlevel doesn't . Making it less toxic by saying you worked as a nurse doesn't make it less insulting to all those who actually do or did. I think it's the same sort of insult that one sees when discussing how much better a MD is compared to a DO. It devalues everyones contribution. I believe the 'jist' of the post that i made reference to spoke of the the 'problems with the midlevels' and i found the generalizations insulting.

schultzhund - DO NOT ENGAGE ZENMAN! He has this idea that western medicine is outdated and the cr@p he spews is REAL medicine - don't believe it.

This is really sad! The stuff I told you about western medicine is not my stuff. If you check the posts, you'll see where I quoted physicians...so you see that I have researched this area. You can read your own medical journals and even the local newspapers if you find time to get your nose out of the books and you will someday catch up to me. I don't spew any crap as everything I do is evidence-based. And yes, western medicine is outdated without a doubt, sadly. Perhaps that is one reason we have data such as this (gathered by a physician):

1. 1/3 of the US population is using complementary therapies routinely
2. More visits are made to complementary medicine providers than to primary care physicians
3. $40 billion per year is spent out of pocket on these therapeutic options
4. 1,200 randomized controlled trials are already published in professional journals
5. The NIH is spending more than $300 million per year on research in the area of CAM.

Like it or not, customers are leaving the modalities that you are spending so much time and money on. You do what you want; just don't call me a crackpot or I'll put you in touch with some the physicians I've treated in the US. They can put you back in your medical student place.

The minute he is really sick he will be in the ER to get western medical care -

Of course I'm in the ER if I need to be. I've had surgery twice. But I rarely get sick because I know how to stay healthy. Do you know how to treat a healthy patient? Probably not. You can only spring into action when something goes wrong. And I'll say it again, if the electricity goes out you are totally helpless.

the only tragedy is that he may have convinced a patient to ignore sound medical advice and take a bunch or herbs or meditate away the tumor....

I don't ignore "sound medical advice" but I do keep in mind the limitations of western medicine and of course the damage it can cause.

Check this guys posts - he is a nut job. I am a medical student and I hang out here sometimes because I am also a nurse and the DO forums don't have zenman :laugh:

You're a medical student and trying to sound like you know something? You realize, I hope, that you know little. Your professor will clarify that for you. As for me being a nut job, go do some research.

Unfortunately, people like zenman leave the impression that as an NP he will be able to meet all of his patients needs and that because he was a nurse for 31 years his experience makes the difference.

You fail as a psychic. Your impression is yours. As an NP I will not be able to meet all my clients needs...no one can do that. My 31 years of experience just puts me way ahead of you, nothing else.

What a load of cr@p - my first month of med school removed that delusion. I could understand the basic problems associated with a disease such as CHF and the common treatments as a nurse because I used that set of skills everyday. I realized how little I knew as I dove into neuro, biochem, physiology, and anatomy. I look forward to developing a new set of skills built on that science thing zenman detest.

I don't detest science. However, I realize it's limitations as many scientists will also tell you.

Some how he will be able to understand that defects of carnitine acyltransferase cause muscle weakness and he will have to understand the difference between beta-oxidation and glycolysis and the problems his patient will experience.

Guess, I'll have to pull out my old copy of Guyton's that I've had for years in order to review this difficult stuff. :laugh:

Just for fun treat this patient with your "science." 44 year old male carpenter disabled due to pain from herniated discs. Also a recovering drug addict with cirrhosis.

Now get him back to being a productive human being.

You do have one positive thing going for you if you go the DO route. However, you need to study in England to get it right. But what do I know about what's happening in the world! :scared:

...It's very discouraging to read a post about how much one knows as a MS in relation to all that a nurse doesn't or a midlevel doesn't.

I'm sorry you get discouraged about hearing the truth. The fact of the matter is Medical School is different then Nursing school, NP school (most of it's was on line), and PA schools.

Dont take my word for it. Take the word of those people who were mid-levels or nurses and then went on to medical school.

...Guess, I'll have to pull out my old copy of Guyton's that I've had for years in order to review this difficult stuff. :laugh:



If your copy of Guyton is 30 years old, it's out date.

Boy did this thread get off topic - it started out talking about nurse anesthetists and now it's voodoo and med students who already think they know all.

did not mean to get so far off the topic -zenman gets me distracted. I actually considered CRNA programs prior to getting accepted to med school. I wasn't sure how I would handle the sitting behind the patient and doing the same procedure every day (administering anesthesia). I work in an ER right now and there are days I don't even sit down and think how nice it would be sitting behind a patient and administering anesthesia :)

Let me be clear as a medical student and one day a doctor - I will not know it all and barely know enough to get through exam week (starts Monday :eek: )

I was wondering zenman what kind of science do they teach in your NP program? Last time I checked out NP programs - most required an advanced pathophysiology course and pharmacology. looks like science to me...oh cr@p I'm off topic again - damn you zenman damn you! :laugh:

[QUOTE=Docgeorge]I'm sorry you get discouraged about hearing the truth. The fact of the matter is Medical School is different then Nursing school, NP school (most of it's was on line), and PA schools.

I would never advocate NP school online. In fact, i think it's near criminal to allow a bridge between RN to NP without ever having to really cared for a patient. IMO the 24 year old , just out of school who is practicing as an NP is ridiculous. At least in medical school the 24 year old is starting a path in learning to care for patients.
Also, I'm not ashamed to say that 90 percent of what i've learned as an NP is the result of previous interaction with patients and observing physicians in a teaching enviroment and now through mentoring with physicans. Because i work in an acute care setting it is hard for me to embrace some of the philosophies of my peers and i actually do probably practice different than my NP family practice colleagues.


With that being said; in my state you are not allowed to work as an NP unless you sit for the boards . Unfortunatley, that standard is not the same for the physicians. We have an ED full of doctors who aren't even board certified in IM, never mind sub specialty. Does it make them bad doctors? Heck no. But it's ironic to some degree that we hold our own to a higher standard that the AMA.

For clarity, again, please re-read my posts. I do not hate RNs, NPs, PAs, techs or even the housekeeping staff. In fact, I think I'm a pretty nice person. Everyone has their place in the world and in healthcare.

It's not insulting to point out the fact that physicians have substantially more education and training than midlevels or RNs. That's reality. I am not being demeaning to anybody by saying this. That's just the way it is. Physicians are not "better people" or even necessarily smarter than anyone else, but they do have a lot more education than the people you mentioned. I think there are some larger societal issues that have made it politically incorrect to point out that fact. Look above this post, who here is demeaning and who is just stating reality?

What I do dislike and strongly disagree with are people who want/expect all of the rights, privileges, respect (yeah right) and autonomy of a physician without going through all the work. I jumped into this thread because I'm tired of hearing "I'm a CRNA and I can do everything an anesthesiologist can" or "an NP is just as qualified to manage pts as an MD/DO."

I'll say it again; it's scary because you don't realize how much you don't know. If anything, medical school has taught me humility. Yes, that's right, humility. I realize every day how much I don't know and appreciate the vastness of medicine. The more you learn, the more you realize how little you actually knew. This is why some mid-levels concern me so much.

Some midlevels, and I realize not all or probably most, develop an over-inflated sense of confidence and ability and try to convince others of this. Then you get a group of providers lobbying politicians for increased practice rights and autonomy while most physicians are unaware or too busy to pay attention. It's a disturbing trend.

I wish you all well in your future.

BTW, thanks for the complements Docgeorge, but I think you have me confused for someone else.

For clarity, again, please re-read my posts. I do not hate RNs, NPs, PAs, techs or even the housekeeping staff. In fact, I think I'm a pretty nice person. Everyone has their place in the world and in healthcare.

It's not insulting to point out the fact that physicians have substantially more education and training than midlevels or RNs. That's reality. I am not being demeaning to anybody by saying this. That's just the way it is. Physicians are not "better people" or even necessarily smarter than anyone else, but they do have a lot more education than the people you mentioned. I think there are some larger societal issues that have made it politically incorrect to point out that fact. Look above this post, who here is demeaning and who is just stating reality?

What I do dislike and strongly disagree with are people who want/expect all of the rights, privileges, respect (yeah right) and autonomy of a physician without going through all the work. I jumped into this thread because I'm tired of hearing "I'm a CRNA and I can do everything an anesthesiologist can" or "an NP is just as qualified to manage pts as an MD/DO."

I'll say it again; it's scary because you don't realize how much you don't know. If anything, medical school has taught me humility. Yes, that's right, humility. I realize every day how much I don't know and appreciate the vastness of medicine. The more you learn, the more you realize how little you actually knew. This is why some mid-levels concern me so much.

Some midlevels, and I realize not all or probably most, develop an over-inflated sense of confidence and ability and try to convince others of this. Then you get a group of providers lobbying politicians for increased practice rights and autonomy while most physicians are unaware or too busy to pay attention. It's a disturbing trend.

I wish you all well in your future.


I'd say that's a nicer way of putting things. I wholeheartedly agree about not realizing what you don't know. I said previously in a post..the minute i say to myself 'how come the other guy couldn't figure this out' there is something starring me right in my face i should have seen.

If your copy of Guyton is 30 years old, it's out date.

It's not that old; trouble with Guyton's book is that there's not enough pictures :D

I was wondering zenman what kind of science do they teach in your NP program? Last time I checked out NP programs - most required an advanced pathophysiology course and pharmacology. looks like science to me...oh cr@p I'm off topic again - damn you zenman damn you! :laugh:

Focus oldman, focus. Here's a really good meditation book to help you, "The Wooden Bowl" by Clark Strand. And a good yoga class will help you with breathing, movement and getting in touch with your body. Yes, an advanced patho and pharm class is about all the "science" there is. If there was any more, I'd choke up and cry! Remember, I don't want any more "science." I'm bored with it, except for the latest in quantum physics and psychoneuroimmunology (and how shamans already knew it before anyone else!). What really gets me going is actually touching a human being and "feeling" what's going on. Docs used to learn how to touch a human being before anything else; don't know why they dropped the most important subject. Now go hug a tree :love:

I am a DO student which means the first two years are nothing but anatomical landmarks and treating somatic dysfunction. I'll have to lay off you for now zeman - enjoy your program and I'll go cut down a tree just for you :meanie:

I would never advocate NP school online.

Why the trouble with online programs? I went "online" for a few minutes and learned this: Benefits of online learning:

Does not require physical attendance.
Most online courses can be taken anytime, early morning or late at night and anyplace.
Some online courses bring together students from all over the world, creating a network of global resources and knowledge.
Online learning can be customized to your abilities and skills.
It enables student-centered teaching.
Increases student interaction.
It teaches skills in using technologies.
It’s less intimidating than in the classroom…level playing field undisturbed by race, gender, age, etc.
Increases bonding and camaraderie over traditional classroom settings.
Online course development allows for a broad spectrum of content, ie, anyone can access learning materials without worrying if it is already checked out, for example.
Over 75% of colleges and universities in the US offer online degrees and research shows the online programs are as respected as traditional programs.
Online classrooms facilitate team learning.
Students can attend class when they are fully awake and at a convenient time for them, rather than rigid time frame.
Greater diversity of course material. Note: My website is even being used by a university for reference material!
I would not have the opportunity to attend NP school if there were no online programs. That would mean one less NP in the world!
Test grades are available immediately!
You can check test grade stats to see how you compare to the rest of your class.
Online learning accommodates different learning styles.
Reduces faculty time spent on “administrivia.”
Online classes utilize time more efficiently.
Reduces facility workload
Students can pursue areas of learning rather than sit through lectures aimed at an entire group.
No drive time. This time saved could be used for another degree or other beneficial pursuits.
Less pollution from your gas guzzler auto…and expense.
Personalized instructor feedback at convenient times.
Greater market potential for struggling universities.
Less costs for universities.
Allows international partnerships at a lower cost for universities and students.

Looks like the traditional classroom is out of date.

In fact, i think it's near criminal to allow a bridge between RN to NP without ever having to really cared for a patient. IMO the 24 year old , just out of school who is practicing as an NP is ridiculous.

I agree here and think they need at least 2-3 years before NP school.

Also, I'm not ashamed to say that 90 percent of what i've learned as an NP is the result of previous interaction with patients and observing physicians in a teaching enviroment and now through mentoring with physicans. Because i work in an acute care setting it is hard for me to embrace some of the philosophies of my peers and i actually do probably practice different than my NP family practice colleagues.

Do you think that NP school is geared more to the medical model and was any "nursing" included? Can you elaborate on what you mean by "some of the philosophies of my peers" and how you practice differently than your NP buddies?

Why the trouble with online programs? I went "online" for a few minutes and learned this: Benefits of online learning:

Does not require physical attendance.
Most online courses can be taken anytime, early morning or late at night and anyplace.
Some online courses bring together students from all over the world, creating a network of global resources and knowledge.
Online learning can be customized to your abilities and skills.
It enables student-centered teaching.
Increases student interaction.
It teaches skills in using technologies.
It’s less intimidating than in the classroom…level playing field undisturbed by race, gender, age, etc.
Increases bonding and camaraderie over traditional classroom settings.
Online course development allows for a broad spectrum of content, ie, anyone can access learning materials without worrying if it is already checked out, for example.
Over 75% of colleges and universities in the US offer online degrees and research shows the online programs are as respected as traditional programs.
Online classrooms facilitate team learning.
Students can attend class when they are fully awake and at a convenient time for them, rather than rigid time frame.
Greater diversity of course material. Note: My website is even being used by a university for reference material!
I would not have the opportunity to attend NP school if there were no online programs. That would mean one less NP in the world!
Test grades are available immediately!
You can check test grade stats to see how you compare to the rest of your class.
Online learning accommodates different learning styles.
Reduces faculty time spent on “administrivia.”
Online classes utilize time more efficiently.
Reduces facility workload
Students can pursue areas of learning rather than sit through lectures aimed at an entire group.
No drive time. This time saved could be used for another degree or other beneficial pursuits.
Less pollution from your gas guzzler auto…and expense.
Personalized instructor feedback at convenient times.
Greater market potential for struggling universities.
Less costs for universities.
Allows international partnerships at a lower cost for universities and students.

Looks like the traditional classroom is out of date.


Learning math and history online is one thing. Learning how to take care of patients online? What a crock!!!

You can learn about signs and symptoms out of a book or online all you want. Learning to APPLY that knowledge and PROBLEM SOLVE comes ONLY through actually working with patients. You can't listen to heart and lung sounds online. You can't perform procedures online. You can't perform a physical exam online. That comes with actually laying hands on MANY patients and learning to recognize subtle differences in what's normal and what's not.

And once again - how the hell does this relate to nurse anesthetists, the original topic? (you can't learn that online either)

Why the trouble with online programs? I went "online" for a few minutes and learned this: Benefits of online learning:

Does not require physical attendance.
Most online courses can be taken anytime, early morning or late at night and anyplace.
Some online courses bring together students from all over the world, creating a network of global resources and knowledge.
Online learning can be customized to your abilities and skills.
It enables student-centered teaching.
Increases student interaction.
It teaches skills in using technologies.
It’s less intimidating than in the classroom…level playing field undisturbed by race, gender, age, etc.
Increases bonding and camaraderie over traditional classroom settings.
Online course development allows for a broad spectrum of content, ie, anyone can access learning materials without worrying if it is already checked out, for example.
Over 75% of colleges and universities in the US offer online degrees and research shows the online programs are as respected as traditional programs.
Online classrooms facilitate team learning.
Students can attend class when they are fully awake and at a convenient time for them, rather than rigid time frame.
Greater diversity of course material. Note: My website is even being used by a university for reference material!
I would not have the opportunity to attend NP school if there were no online programs. That would mean one less NP in the world!
Test grades are available immediately!
You can check test grade stats to see how you compare to the rest of your class.
Online learning accommodates different learning styles.
Reduces faculty time spent on “administrivia.”
Online classes utilize time more efficiently.
Reduces facility workload
Students can pursue areas of learning rather than sit through lectures aimed at an entire group.
No drive time. This time saved could be used for another degree or other beneficial pursuits.
Less pollution from your gas guzzler auto…and expense.
Personalized instructor feedback at convenient times.
Greater market potential for struggling universities.
Less costs for universities.
Allows international partnerships at a lower cost for universities and students.

Looks like the traditional classroom is out of date.



I agree here and think they need at least 2-3 years before NP school.



Do you think that NP school is geared more to the medical model and was any "nursing" included? Can you elaborate on what you mean by "some of the philosophies of my peers" and how you practice differently than your NP buddies?


I'm guessing the benefits of online learning was tongue in cheek..right?
anyway, as far as my statement about practicing differently. NP schools are loaded with theory...it is how lucky you are to get good clinical placement that will help define how you will likely practice. Because i worked in acute care and then trained in an acute care setting and worked as a house officer I would say it has guided my thinking to be more medical model than nursing. The only component that I likely carry from nursing is the family interaction and the knowing what it's like to have a horrible day on the wards.
But i do see patients in house who have NP as outpatietns and sometimes it's been great and other times i felt like the patient should seek another person. I feel the same about doctors though too at times.

I would give you a recent example of a patient in hospital with acute renal failure and mx. co morbidities and a new pulmonary emboli. Well, she told me her providers NP had recently stopped her blood pressure medicine because she was feeling dizzy and instead started her on HCTz along with her lasix. God knows why. So she's 6 weeks post gastric bypass, can't get her breath, off her anticoagulant, and feels awful. Instead of doing something she is taken off medicines by the NP and told to keep checking her glucoses. (Thankfully she was euglycemic when her VQ scan was being done! ) and it just amazes me that this could go on. So when she shows up (and i tell her actually she has chronic renal insuff, likely from HTN,obesity, DM) she is telling me that 'no, i have no kidney troubles' and is stunned that she does in fact have chronic disease. This lady should have been referred out prior to her even getting ill. Her baseline creatinine is 1.6 and she's never had a workup. How can that be good? I hold both the doc and the NP responsible.
However, think that NP's that just get out of school with little clincal experience are scarey and are sold a bill of goods and often are not working with the creme de la creme of providers. They just want to be on their own and the doc wants cheaper help. At my hospital there are several NP's on the medical staff. They are rarely there and if an emergency with one of their patients arose it would be the PA on call who took care of it for them. Our PA"s are fantastic. Yet, when credentialing time comes these NP's are insulted the the President of the MS asks for criteria and has to recommend them for another 2 years based on clinical performance. This last statement has nothing to do with your question but i wanted to gripe.

On my way to NP hell....

Hi,
I am curious about the program for nurse anethesists. Is this a MA degree? In what capacity do these professionals function? Do they work with anesthesiologists? What is the average salary? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
this thread is still going? :sleep: I think the original question was answered :thumbdown

mx 599, that is the most doctored and phony pic I have ever seen. Surely you can do better than that.

Hope that's not your mug BTW.

Learning math and history online is one thing. Learning how to take care of patients online? What a crock!!!

You can learn about signs and symptoms out of a book or online all you want. Learning to APPLY that knowledge and PROBLEM SOLVE comes ONLY through actually working with patients. You can't listen to heart and lung sounds online. You can't perform procedures online. You can't perform a physical exam online. That comes with actually laying hands on MANY patients and learning to recognize subtle differences in what's normal and what's not.

It utterly amazes me that there is still someone who thinks that clinical is done online! Sigh!

mx 599, that is the most doctored and phony pic I have ever seen. Surely you can do better than that.

Hope that's not your mug BTW.

Can you see that face coming at you and hear "sir, I need to stick my finger up your...!" :scared:

this thread is still going? :sleep: I think the original question was answered :thumbdown

Thank God it became more interesting :sleep:

I'm guessing the benefits of online learning was tongue in cheek..right?

Not for the textbook stuff.


This last statement has nothing to do with your question but i wanted to gripe.

No problem. Thanks for the info. I got a lot of time in acute care but what really turns me on now is the chronic stuff where nothing is working. I want to write "the book" for complementary care for NPs. I think that is a better role for them than the medical model, IMHO.

Not for the textbook stuff.



No problem. Thanks for the info. I got a lot of time in acute care but what really turns me on now is the chronic stuff where nothing is working. I want to write "the book" for complementary care for NPs. I think that is a better role for them than the medical model, IMHO.

I'll retract some of my opinion on online learning (not sure i'd say 'degree') but in retrospect i could have easily taken my theory and concepts class on line and probably have been happier than i was listening to someone who didn't know bedside care go on and on. As an adult learner i found i taught myself the concepts component through self study. Pharm and patho it was nice to have a community of students. Same as for chemistry/bio as an undergrad.

Regarding complemetary therapy. Not really such abad thing. However, i know that the very doctors who i get along with wonderfully would likely change some of there opinions if i started ordering less traditional stuff. (plus i know little about it). The farthest i would venture is integrative care for pain and relaxation.

Can you see that face coming at you and hear "sir, I need to stick my finger up your...!" :scared:


OMG that was the funniest thing I heard all day. Caught me off guard with that one. Better than the vascular surg who said "oh ****" today when he nicked the aorta and caused my boring ALIF case to suddenly become VERY busy.

Dude's body is about 240-250 lbs with a 170 pound's person head attached.

Awesome post dude.

OMG that was the funniest thing I heard all day. Caught me off guard with that one. Better than the vascular surg who said "oh ****" today when he nicked the aorta and caused my boring ALIF case to suddenly become VERY busy.

Dude's body is about 240-250 lbs with a 170 pound's person head attached.

Awesome post dude.
yeah...that was a classmate's pic that another classmate photoshopped onto Nate the moderator's avatar. he is in the pre osteo forum i think. we were having a bit of an avatar war going on. OSUdoc pic was manipulated as well

yeah...that was a classmate's pic that another classmate photoshopped onto Nate the moderator's avatar. he is in the pre osteo forum i think. we were having a bit of an avatar war going on. OSUdoc pic was manipulated as well


Very nice mx_599. A good ole fashioned grude match and competition just makes things interesting sometimes.

I'm going to be easy on you until you are fully awake.

I hope you weren't up late spending time "learning a system based on an ancient science."

This truly has be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen. I suppose things such as anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, and immunology are a waste of time. Nobody really needs those sciences to manipulate the bodies’ structure or chemistry in medicine. Are you for real??

See, this is the problem with a lot of the mid-level practitioners. You delude yourself into believing that you can offer great health care without truly understanding what you are doing. It is impossible to understand all of the complexities of the human machine without learning and understanding the composite sciences. .

Ask any normal minded PA what they think of this crap and I think you'd get the reaction that you had. But Thank you for your sweeping indictment of all midlevels.


The problem that I see with a lot of mid-levels is that they don't know how much they don't know. This is especially true of the younger ones. It's frightening.
You see alot of midlevels...? Really? Where, in your med school classes? What you say really stinks because I think you're talking out of your butt. If you hate NPs that's your business, wait till you work with some PAs as a physician before you pass judgement on them.


BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).
The reality is that most NPs, CRNAs and PAs desire all the rights, privileges, and respect that a physician has without doing the same amount of work. It's true; people admit that on this forum and in real life. Ask any NP or PA that has gone through medical school. I personally know many people that have gone through both and will openly admit 1) they really wanted to be a doctor but for whatever reason didn't do it 2) they were completely amazed how much they didn't know..

WRONG SPANKY, way off, you simply have no idea what the PA community's attitude regarding supervised practice is all about. Do us all a favor and speak for the NPs if that's what you were. Don't brand my profession guilty by association just because we too are midlevels. I never practiced advanced nursing, I did learn alot about medicine though.


The worst enemies for the midlevels are people like me who have seen both sides. In my experience, a lot of these people (me included) are the ones lobbing to reign in the expanding rights of midlevels because they realize first hand how frightening it is...
First of all, just because you got a crappy NP education somewhere, you think you know what a PAs education is all about. Here's a newsflash, your education as an NP was not PA school. Most PAs know where there knowledge gaps are and are well aware of their limitations, it's a by-product of good training. And before you even start...I don't really give a flying frack that you are in med school and that your training is superior, and you know what I don't know yada...yada..yada....take all that and bury it where no one would ever look.


Having said all of that, I do not hate midlevels. I think they can fulfill a need in healthcare. The problem is that they frequently get too big for their britches and want to do more with less supervision than they should. It's human nature.

Thanks Freud, now spout you paternalistic and patronizing crap over at the pre-med forum where people don't know any better.

I have worked with and go to school with PA's and have said on many occasions that the training a PA receives is WAY superior to ANY NP program I have ever reviewed.

now - before I am flamed to death let my clarify my comments.

I AM NOT an NP nor have I trained as one. I did review many different programs including PA, CRNA & NP programs prior to my acceptance into med school as my "back-up" plan. So I have a general understanding of the academic requirements.

The curriculum of the PA program is more consistent with a sconce based program and mirrors much of my current educational tract e.g. human anatomy, pharmacology, pathophysiology and many more science based programs along with rigorous clinical based training.

Most NP programs have a few semesters of pathophysiology and pharmacology and consider your previous training in nursing as the core science base for the advanced training. IMHO the first year of PA training would exceed the basic nursing program requirements.

People like zenman give all practitioners a bad name (doctors too) because he does not accept nor realize that all of his previous training is inadequate for solo practice. Yet this guy goes around bad mouthing science and medicine and boast about how his views (not based on rigorous medical training) are superior.

so hate zenamn - give respect to all the practitioners out there because there are some solid NP/PA/MD/DO people who know there limitations and play well together in the sandbox.

I understand where spanky is coming from having worked with some mid-levels that have made decisions way above their pay-grade and it is scary. No need to offer sweeping indictments - there are worthless practitioners at all levels - just hate the zenman for he knows not what he talks about - science is bunk. What has he been smoking lately?


rant done


sorry zenman but I gotta call you on your science hateing ways

I started at the beginning of this thread when it was interesting and stopped when the name calling and off-topic machismo came into play.

I can tell you this, my father is a CRNA in downstate illinois, been practicing for almost 28 years. He's never been sued (knock on wood!!!!!) and never had a reason to be. I've observed him many times in my quest for medical observation during surgeries (the general surgeon also happens to be his neighbor), and I have the most respect for my father, as do most people in that community. He had the option of becoming a DO back in the 70's, but he loved his job and knew he had enough training. After 28 years with a great record, I'd say he's right. Eventually, my mother (a previous RN) went on to become a physician, and he thinks a household only needs one M.D. :)

Now, on the other hand, his former partner (who retired last year by just walking off the job) was a piece of work. I wouldn't let her put me under even if it involved drinking a bottle of vodka. So, just as there are good and bad physicians, there are good and bad nurses in all disciplines.

For those who think this area should be mastered by physicians.... better do your research. Nurses in the civil war began administering pain relief via available methods on the battlefields, and historically have been the ones to handle anesthesia (th doctor was only supposed to come in and do his thing when the patient was good and knocked out). Because of the complicated nature, and the fact that physicians have also historically administered anesthesia, it's a physician specialty as well.

Anyway, to those who are seriously considering becoming a CRNA, the AANA does have a lot of info for you. I'm currently a speech therapist that doesn't want to be a speech therapist anymore, and am considering medicine - or nursing with the hopes of becoming a CRNA. It's a great job! I guess the median starting salary (at least in the area my dad works in) is around 150K and he makes $240K. BUT, he is the sole CRNA (and has 28 years of experience).

These are my .02, but it really sucks that this thread turned into a MD vs. CRNA thing. Sorry if the more recent posts are better - I stopped on page 3.

CRNA training rocks and the salary does to - it was high on my list. forget speech therapy - we talk to much anyways. Go for whets fits for you - all the CRNA's I talked to had it together and enjoyed what they did. If it was not for people like your dad rural America would not have half the medical services they have now.

I have more of an ER personality and had to make decisions based on that little quirk. Like I said in my previous post - the majority of professionals I have worked with have been just that.

This thread got ugly when the science bashing started (I think it has been a while :laugh: )

hope you find what you are looking for and good luck

People like zenman give all practitioners a bad name (doctors too) because he does not accept nor realize that all of his previous training is inadequate for solo practice. Yet this guy goes around bad mouthing science and medicine and boast about how his views (not based on rigorous medical training) are superior.

so hate zenamn - give respect to all the practitioners out there because there are some solid NP/PA/MD/DO people who know there limitations and play well together in the sandbox.

....just hate the zenman for he knows not what he talks about - science is bunk. What has he been smoking lately?

sorry zenman but I gotta call you on your science hateing ways

You really must read my posts more carefully or get someone to interpret them for you. All the "stuff" I said about science, medical education, etc. is not my original material. If you look again, you'll see where I quoted a physician several times as well as a WHO report and a medical journal. The material is out there. Our health care system is crashing and needs help. The first step in improving it is taking an objective look at where it's at, not creating your own reality of what you think it is. There was even a post recently by a physician on allnurses asking for info because she felt she was not meeting her patients needs. What I am for is INTEGRATIVE medicine. I'm all for empirical studies of "alternative" modalities as long as we recognize the limitations of even double-blinded studies.

I doubt that I will ever be in solo practice as I've been scared of my limitations ever since I started as an ARMY medic. :scared:

I usually get along with most people; just can't handle dumb people...(not talking about you or anyone else on this forum)

I'll be in the hill country of Thailand this next summer with some shamans and native healers. Want to come and see some real sh*t :laugh:

And just today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110301143.html

For Americans, Getting Sick Has Its Price
Survey Says U.S. Patients Pay More, Get Less Than Those in Other Western Nations
By Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 4, 2005; Page A02

Americans pay more when they get sick than people in other Western nations and get more confused, error-prone treatment, according to the largest survey to compare U.S. health care with other nations.

The survey of nearly 7,000 sick adults in the United States, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Britain and Germany found Americans were the most likely to pay at least $1,000 in out-of-pocket expenses. More than half went without needed care because of cost and more than one-third endured mistakes and disorganized care when they did get treated.

is this a scientific survey or polictical diatribe???

It's hard to say how valid this is - how do they define 1/3 of the US population? Are they estimating from their study, or do they mean 1/3 of the population that participated in this study? And, what part of the US are the participants from (rural, urban, suburban, what state...etc.)? What kind of health benefits do they have (Did they even have insurance)? Also, does this study take into account that there are 4 million in New Zealand, 20 million in Australia, 33 million in Canada, 60 million in the UK, 82 million in Germany, and almost 300 million
in the US.

Since our country has WAY more than the others studied, then you have to adjust for inflation. Maybe they also should have included Russia and China - countries that have a higher population than we do.

Overall, this does not sound like a statistically sound study. It sounds like numbers were not fully reviewed and twisted for shock value. I wouldn't put much stock in this particular article, especially from a liberal source. Too biased.

this idea of access to care - which is ridiculous since the ER can not turn anybody away - is not the same as the level of care provided.

okay, zenman it is a nice try to minimize the issue by stating more Americans will receive care and have better access due to a wide variety of practitioners. that is probably true.

it does not address the point that the level of NP training BASED on scientific principles is different then training received by a CRNA, PA, or MD/DO. This is my entire argument - no one else has a problem with this idea that we all receive different levels of training. For instance, as a future ER doc I would NEVER consider my self an expert in neuro surgery or would I pretend that my experience even supported that claim.

But off you go with this idea that your monk like ways make you more experienced then everyone else and our pathetic notions of scientific based treatments are so childlike and well not even close to your enlightened ways.

This idea is derived from your continual attacks on medical training (all of it NP/CRNA/PA/MD/DO). get a grip zenman and accept that your training has limitation just like my training has...the idea that putting on goat skin chaps and headdress - chanting and sacrificing chickens makes your idea of medicine superior to accepted practices is INSANE. Get in line with the rest of us and provide excellent healthcare for our patients based on accepted treatment practices or malpractice insurance will be a figment of your imagination.

rant done

hey zenman i am just giving you grief - no hate here

the idea that putting on goat skin chaps and headdress - chanting and sacrificing chickens makes your idea of medicine superior to accepted practices is INSANE.

OK, OK, OK... the goat skin chaps comment was completely uncalled for, very funny, but uncalled for.
Now Ass-less chaps, that would have been hilarious, but again, uncalled for.

I'll be in the hill country of Thailand this next summer with some shamans and native healers. Want to come and see some real sh*t :laugh:

http://www.realadventures.com/listings/1023919.htm


http://www.lifeevents.org/

Is this the sort of "real sh*t" that your referring to?

... just curious

it does not address the point that the level of NP training BASED on scientific principles is different then training received by a CRNA, PA, or MD/DO. This is my entire argument - no one else has a problem with this idea that we all receive different levels of training.

When you say “no one else” you can include me. I know all of the programs are different; that’s why, well one reason why, I’m in the NP program.

But off you go with this idea that your monk like ways make you more experienced then everyone else and our pathetic notions of scientific based treatments are so childlike and well not even close to your enlightened ways.

Don’t know how you came up with that. Remember, if you will, that I was telling you what your peers were saying. I’ll repeat what I said earlier…“What I am for is INTEGRATIVE medicine. I'm all for empirical studies of "alternative" modalities as long as we recognize the limitations of even double-blinded studies.”

This idea is derived from your continual attacks on medical training (all of it NP/CRNA/PA/MD/DO). get a grip zenman and accept that your training has limitation just like my training has

Well, I certainly realize that my NP training has its problems and have never said that it didn’t.

...the idea that putting on goat skin chaps and headdress - chanting and sacrificing chickens makes your idea of medicine superior to accepted practices is INSANE.

What I want too get across to you is that by studying other and older modalities, you will find interesting things, for ex. that shamans had “mind-body” medicine down long before more recent “experts,” including Candace Pert. Many physicians/psychologists/nurses, etc.. make trips into the jungle and come out with a new perspective.

Get in line with the rest of us and provide excellent healthcare for our patients based on accepted treatment practices or malpractice insurance will be a figment of your imagination.

I intend to as long as it’s “Integrative Medicine!”

hey zenman i am just giving you grief - no hate here

No problem.

Below is a list of medical schools that think like I do…thank goodness. Hopefully you’re in one. Others might be interested also so I’ll list their website also.

The Consortium of Academic Health Centers for Integrative Medicine

Definition of Integrative Medicine

Integrative Medicine is the practice of medicine that reaffirms the importance of the relationship between practitioner and patient, focuses on the whole person, is informed by evidence, and makes use of all appropriate therapeutic approaches, healthcare professionals and disciplines to achieve optimal health and healing.

Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University
Continuum Center for Health and Healing
www.healthandhealingny.org

Columbia University
Richard and Hinda Rosenthal Center for Complementary & Alternative Medicine
www.rosenthal.hs.columbia.edu

Duke University
Duke Center for Integrative Medicine
www.dcim.org

Georgetown University
Kaplan Clinic
www.georgetown.edu/schmed/cam

George Washington University
Center for Integrative Medicine
www.integrativemedicinedc.com

Harvard Medical School
Osher Institute
www.osher.hms.harvard.edu

Laval University
Approche Integree en Sante

Oregon Health and Science University
Women's Primary Care and Integrative Medicine, Center forWomen's Health
www.ohsu.edu/orccamind
www.ohsuwomenshealth.com/services/doctors/integrative.html

Thomas Jefferson University
Center for Integrative Medicine
www.jeffersonhospital.org/cim

University of Alberta
Complementary and Alternative Research and Education (CARE)

University of Arizona
Program for Integrative Medicine
www.integrativemedicine.arizona.edu

University of Calgary
Canadian Institute of Natural & Integrative Medicine
www.cinim.org
www.ucalgary.ca

University of California, Irvine
Susan Samueli Center for Integrative Medicine
www.ucihs.uci.edu/com/samueli

University of California, Los Angeles
Collaborative Centers for Integrative Medicine
www.uclamindbody.org

University of California, San Francisco
Osher Center for Integrative Medicine
www.ucsf.edu/ocim

University of Connecticut
School of Medicine
www.uchc.edu

University of Hawaii at Manoa
Program in Integrative Medicine
www.uhm.hawaii.edu

University of Maryland
Center for Integrative Medicine
www.compmed.umm.edu

University of Massachusetts
Center for Mindfulness
www.umassmed.edu/cfm/

University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey
Institute for Complementary & Alternative Medicine
www.umdnj.edu/icam

University of Michigan
Michigan Integrative Medicine
www.med.umich.edu/mim

University of Minnesota
Center for Spirituality and Healing
www.csh.umn.edu

University of New Mexico
Health Science Center
hsc.umm.edu/medicine/Integrative_med

University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Program on Integrative Medicine
pim.med.unc.edu

University of Pennsylvania
Office of Complementary Therapies
www.med.upenn.edu/penncam

University of Pittsburgh
Center for Complementary Medicine
integrativemedicine.upmc.com

University of Texas Medical Branch
UTMB Integrative Health Care
cam.utmb.edu

University of Washington
Department of Family Medicine
www.fammed.washington.edu/predoctoral/cam

Wake Forest University
Holistic and Integrative Medicine
www1.wfubmc.edu/phim/

http://www.realadventures.com/listings/1023919.htm


http://www.lifeevents.org/

Is this the sort of "real sh*t" that your referring to?

... just curious

Similar; tours are good but staying longer even better. I'll be in Chiang Mai over Christmas. Wonder if the lady in the second link can tell me what my Christmas present will be!

OK, maybe we can turn this thread back to anyone studying to become a CRNA or who is already a CRNA....

Anyone in either category?
What schools did/are you attending?
Why did you pick this school?
What is/was it like? (courses, instructors, clinicals, location, etc, etc)
If you are now a CRNA, what is your daily schedule like?
What is your lifestyle like? (time off, family life, hobby time, and yes, even compensation is important - a gal's gotta feed her family!)
Why did you go for CRNA and not MDA?
Would you recommend this course of study?

Someone PLEASE post this information..... This is the only thread on nurse anesthesia!!!!!!!! There at least needs to be one **sticky** :)

Hey Megboo!

Go on to www.allnurses.com, and scroll down to the CRNA forum.
There is lots and lots of great info there, and some very important stickies to read. I don't think that you'll find what you're looking for on this thread, IMHO.
Good Luck :D


OK, maybe we can turn this thread back to anyone studying to become a CRNA or who is already a CRNA....

Anyone in either category?
What schools did/are you attending?
Why did you pick this school?
What is/was it like? (courses, instructors, clinicals, location, etc, etc)
If you are now a CRNA, what is your daily schedule like?
What is your lifestyle like? (time off, family life, hobby time, and yes, even compensation is important - a gal's gotta feed her family!)
Why did you go for CRNA and not MDA?
Would you recommend this course of study?

Someone PLEASE post this information..... This is the only thread on nurse anesthesia!!!!!!!! There at least needs to be one **sticky** :)

Thanks billy, this link was super informative! :thumbup:

The Leader in the team is the person who is most knowledgable and highly trained for the situation at hand. If a pt is crumping and needs to be intubated, rescusitated and the only people there are a CRNA and Dermatologists then the CRNA is the leader here. It the pt needs Surgery then the Surgery is leader. If pt in acute renal failure the nephrology the leader. If pt needs acute intervention and the NP following the pt for that specific reason is on hand then they are the leader.

Assuming physicians are the overall leader for all situations is false and you who said that must have slim practiioner expereince at best. The leader is the person best qualified on hand to handle the present problem or situation, and has the balls to make a descision and live with that decision if it ends up with a poor outcome. A leader motivates people, runs things smoothly at hectic times. People bust assss to work for a real leader.

I have seen people with a million years of experience not lead a team effectively in intense situation. Leadership also encompases a persons interaction with others, and commnication style. Do you think you can be an effective leader if you are dick and no one respects you. No not at all.

Thank you.

Not to start any trouble but what is the difference between a CRNA and an AA (Anesthesiologist Assistant)??? AA sounds interesting but I am still doing more research on the profession.....

Not to start any trouble but what is the difference between a CRNA and an AA (Anesthesiologist Assistant)??? AA sounds interesting but I am still doing more research on the profession.....
CRNAs are independent anesthesia providers (in most States). They do not require MD/A supervision, and could bill on their own. This may not be the case with AA. I'm not saying that one is better than the other. I simply don't know. So please No Flaming :D

Not to start any trouble but what is the difference between a CRNA and an AA (Anesthesiologist Assistant)??? AA sounds interesting but I am still doing more research on the profession.....

Main differences...

AA's will always be working with anesthesiologists as part of the anesthesia care team. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.

CRNA's can practice in all 50 states - AA's are in 16 states (increasing every year) and DC.

As far as job descriptions and compensation - in groups or hospitals that use both AA's and CRNA's, they're the same for comparable experience. If you're an AA with eight years experience, you'll get paid the same as a CRNA with eight years experience.

Rather than go through all the other stuff on this topic, PM me with any questions you have about AA's and I'll try to answer them. I can probably provide you with more info than you want, since I'm an AA, and I understand most sides of the issues involving AA's. ;)