I just want to know where you go to school to become a podiatrist? Are podiatrists called doctors? Is a foot fetish required for applying? Just curious.

Foot fetish.... huh?! :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes: :p

Originally posted by jiffy boy:
<STRONG>I just want to know where you go to school to become a podiatrist? </STRONG>

I've seen your previous postings before and there all not that serious but just in case you are "curious" then here's a link for you to expand that curiousity:
http://www.aacpm.org/careercenter/cz3_links.asp

Originally posted by jiffy boy:
<STRONG>Are podiatrists called doctors? </STRONG>

Yes :D

Originally posted by jiffy boy:
<STRONG>Just curious.</STRONG>

Really?! I don't think so.... :D.... Post padding all the way!!! :cool:

Damn I'm bored....

Allopathic (MD) and osteopathic (DO) physicians, dentists (DMD/DDS), podiatrists (DPM), optometrists (OD), chiropractors (DC), PhDs, LLDs (some lawyers), EdD (education), all with a doctoral degree of any kind are doctors. All pharmacy colleges now award the PharmD; when you become a physician and a newly minted pharmacist calls to discuss a patient's prescription, you will be able to call each other doctor. Ain't that grand? Allopathic and Osteopathic Physicians, on the other hand, are medical doctors because their degrees are medical degrees.

"Doctor", derived from Latin, originally meant teacher. The Pope is a Doctor of the Church in his role as teacher.

"Professor" is an academic title, less common than "doctor" (although most also have doctoral degrees). Thus, "Professor" outranks mere "doctor." They say Justice is blind; that must be so to let all those dumb professors be able to stand a little taller
than all us smart cookies. This is our sweet revenge: we will earn more money than almost all of them.

Except for the Pope, all doctors have to get on the end of the line at the supermarket, postoffice, boxoffice, wherever there is a line, just like the humblest of us all. Three cheers for democracy. Who would want to live in a country where doctors are moved to the front of a line?

Of course!

Yet, MDs (orthopods, others) can do eveything DPMs do. Not the same way around with DPMs.

(I am not DPM-bashing, just stating facts).

:rolleyes:

think, when someone comes in to a physician and needs a specialist in that area, would they not send them to a doctor who will help best.....a DPM.....DPM's just specialize immediately (so maybe they are smarter), they are definately doctors.
***dammit i want to be the pope, if it helps get my grocery's quicker****oh wait...no sex ever...nevermind i'll wait in line :)

They are doctors but not "physicians". Not in New York state's defintion anyway. Since podiatry's scope of practice can vary state from state, I don't know how to define them. But why specialize immediately and deprive your students the opportunity to change specialties. How can you specialize with such a brief period of residency when other surgical specialties take 2-3x as long. I think the profession is extremely valuable, but they should assimilate and become another medical specialty . This would increase the exposure, resources and population of podiatrists. What's the benefit of having a different degree, the schools are struggling as it is accepting god know who just to fill their seats. Those in charge fear the loss of power but enough is enough. I am sure many podiatrists would agree.

In the late 80's podiatry was rated the number 1 career to get into as far as the amount of work you did and the pay you received. Since then, hospitals have cut down on how much DPMs receive for procedures they do.

My brother just graduated from podiatry school in San Fran. He is now doing his residency training as a foot surgeon. Residency will last for two years. He is basically a first year resident that treats patients and is learning right along side medical students. Just the other day he had the opportunity to intibate patients, inject drugs, slice feet open, and prescribe medications.

After a short residency, my brother will rarely have to work long hours and be on call every night. He will have time for his family and activities. He will also make over 100,000 a year just like most doctors exceot he'll do it in a shorter period of time and under much less stressful conditions.

So does he get bashed a lot for not being a bonefied doctor. All the time. However, DPM's will eventually have 6 month programs available to them in which they can gain a MD license from foreign medical schools and eventually become licensed as bonefied MD's in the U.S. With a DPM and MD degree tell me who has the advantage? It looks as though my brother will be licensed to perform surgery limited to the foot faster than an orthropedic surgeon would.

Podiatry definitely has its advatages. I'm headed to med school this fall, but I must admit sometimes I marvel at the route podiatry has to offer.

thank you!

apparently you have not done your research. There is only one school who tried to institute a combined program. Try visiting some forums and you will find out the truth. Do you honestly think 6 months in a foreign medical school will allow someone to practice medicine in the states. There are various policies with states and the WHO regarding obtaining a medical license. Orthopedic surgeons take about 10 years to get their training. Podiatrists will never obtain dual certification via that route. That 40hr week 100,000 salary is the spoonfed crap that podiatry schools use to rope in unsuspecting students. This is 21st century medicine, no one has that easy of a life. Oh yeah that school in San Fran is no longer accepting students and their teaching hospital closed down. And if you do not know why, then you are not up to date with the turmoil in podiatry right now.

sandj. You really need to obtain better role models. I can't believe that you would put so much time and effort into bashing a proffesion that you are not involved with. I hope that you are one of those angry people that got into the health field thinking they are going to make great money and found out the harsh realities of life. I know that the APMA is putting BS out there such as high figures and low amount of work hours which I really disagree with but I know for a fact that if you are not business
minded, you will not do well in any branch of medicine. Just look at DOs, they get some business courses in their curriculumn and ,more often than not, do much better in the real world with opening practices and/or hospitals. I know two that just bought a hospital in Jersey. People, if you are intrested in podiatry, don't let these morons affect your judgement. You have to work hard and be business minded to do well. Twenty years ago they said there were too many nurses and enrollment dwindled in the schools. Now they need them more than ever. So SANDJ SHUT THE F--K UP! Go find more MDs or DOs asses to kiss!

Hey guys check this out:

TOP 10 FASTEST GROWING OCCUPATIONS

1. SYSTEMS ANALYST (avg. salary: $42,000)
2. PHYSICAL THERAPISTS(avg. salary: $35,000)
3. OPERATIONS RESEARCH (avg. salary: $57,000)
4. MEDICAL SCIENTISTS (avg. salary: $35,000)
5. PSYCHOLOGISTS (avg. salary: $54,000)
6. OCCUPATIONAL THERAPISTS (avg. salary: $36,000)
7. MARKETING AND ADVERTISING (avg. salary: $41,000)
8. PODIATRISTS (avg. salary: $100,000)
9. TEACHERS (avg. salary: $35,000)
10. SPECIAL EDUCATION TEACHERS (avg. salary: $35,000)null8. PODIATRISTS (avg. salary: $100,000) or
Peace :D You don't belive me :) (http://cujobs.creighton.edu/Aid_counseling.htm)

Wow the message, you really do not know your facts. I spent two years in a podiatry school and I am well aware of the problems the profession is facing.I left to pursue a medical degree and increase my oppurtunities. There are plenty of sites acknowledging the situation in podiatry. I am not the only one, there are plenty of PODIATRISTS who say the same thing. God either you are ignorant , OR you are enrolled in a podiatry school and are upset with the current situation and the uncertainty of you future. Go ahead bighsot, check out the student podiatry forum, maybe you can tell all the students and podiatrists on that forum that they are, " turban wearing camel jockeys" Oh by the way, with HMO's who's asses do you think podiatrists are kissing. Wake the F&*% Up, if everything was so rosy, there would be more applicants and no need for combined MD programs. this is not the 1980s anymore and the simple fact is podiatry is getting squeezed out. A couple of buisness classes is not going to overcome the massive hurdles podiatry is facing. There is a reason this part of the forum is quiet, most of the people who post here do not know anything about podiatry. You honestly think you can compare nursing 2 million strong( many of whom are now starting to practice foot care, add that to the list of podiatrist's competitors), to the 14,000 of podiatry. If it is all due to decreased interest in the medical profession and "cycles" than why are M.D. and D.O. schools still receiving THOUSANDS of application while ALL 7 PODIATRY could not even total 500. Its about matriculating competitive students who can advance the profession and quality of care. THE MESSAGE is, you are an AS*&*&% who made the wrong assumption about me. The truth is everywhere, I am not trying to bash the profession. But when people walk around feeding this bullsh*& that podiatry is the lucrative medical subspecialty with great potential if you have the "buisness sense" makes me angry. I have consulted many podiatrists, some who have left after 1-5 years of practice to enter FM,MD, and DO schools. They helped me with my decision. Why don't ya tell them the reason why they failed is because they have no work ethic or poor buisness sense. Not because the profession is lying to its students, and has failed to prepare thier students for the difficulties ahead. In my opinion, schools have to close(that means many jobs), and podiatry had to align themselves with U.S medicals schools in a combined track similar to dentistry and oral surgery. Get all the graduates and students to take the USMLEs and additional credit hours needed( I do not mean six months on a beach school)it could be a couple of years. But it could attract more applicants amd help improve the status and oppurtunities for current and future D.P.M.s

That top ten info is a common plot by schools to attract students. Check the federal occupational handbook, Podiatry does not fit that group. Guys you have to realize that admissions have fallen badly, with no students you obviously have no future podiatrists. How in the world is the profession going to grow. Nursing, osteopathic medicine these are profession that are displaying growth. They have numbers to back themselves. Please, anyone will tell you this is propaganda, not just the "turban wearing" assasin :)

ATTENTION! We have angry students here that have no lives. I post a reply and Steve has to write a f@*kin short story on his dumb a#s did not know what a career in podiatry was like. I'm sorry you hated NYCPM but you should have considered that the angry faculty up there could not hack it in the real world thus they are TEACHERS that fill your young idiotic mind with the idea that you will not either. I'm glad you are not in this field because you are weak and need approval from others.

The MESSAGE....it is obvious to me that SANDJ has done the needed research on this topic to post an educated opinion. Whether you believe it or not, I think one still has to respect another's opinion. Frankly, I think it is sad that THE MESSAGE is going into the healthcare profession as a podiatrist. I would not want someone who makes insulting and derogatory ethnic remarks to be treating me. If you enjoy the profession you will be undertaking, isn't that good enough?

THE MESSAGE: Does the hostility make you feel better?

O.K. Phisphan, the THC has just destroyed my ability to think. What racial remarks are you talking about?

I am the one with no life yet you are searching america online profiles to find my name. That was an intelligent post, what year of high school are you in? The only anger in my reply you ignorant, immature, babbling bafoon comes from the personal attack you made on me. You are proving you ignorance daily on this forum advising people on podiatric residencies for example, that do not exist. Also, where does the attack on the NYCPM faculty come from. My info comes from podiatrists across the country and other students who have left to become successful doctors, not the staff of NYCPM. get you facts straight before posting. If any of you ex-pod students are reading this, be aware that "the message" does not approve. He or she is glad that we are not part of the profession. But if the message is a student of podiatry,( which I highly doubt),I am sure the American public are happy that a racist, ignorant,child is going to be their foot doctor. Please if you are a student of podiatry, prove it. But, if you are not then keep your uninformed babbling thoughts to yourself.
I am providing information that is based on facts. If you have info that can intelligent;y counter mine, then go ahead. I know you do not,that is why you reply by attacking me and calling me an idiot and insecure. Why, because that is all you can think of. Oh no I am an idiot, you got me again, don't I feel dumb! Prove me wrong genius. What is really ironic is that you call me the angry student. Maybe you should read more carefully the first post you put on this thread.

By the way, you do not know me, so to be cute and address me by a name or try to assess my intelligence or character. Because as evidenced on this thread, you are lacking.
Phisphan, thank you, At least some objective individuals can appreciate other's opinions. The message forgets his first beautiful racist thread.
As I mentioned many times before, some of these posts are coming from misinformed individuals. Go to the student podiatry forum on network 54 and ask your questions about podiatry there . I am only trying to bring the atmosphere of that forum here.You could ask me questions if you like.
Aloha kid your post was discussed there, for example( the message's favorite post), not in a postive nature I'm sorry to add. But I forget that unhappy podiatrists and students are "idiotic" and "insecure". The message would spend days attacking each member.

since podiatrists are allopathic medical doctor specializing if feet and ankles, they should be allowed to put M.D.-Podiatry behind their name. I mean a cardiologist treats hearts, a podiatrists treats feet, both are from allopathic line of medicine. If i'm not wrong, some of the teachers or faculty at Nova COM are Podiatrists (listed on their catalog).

Originally posted by PuppyLuv:
<STRONG>since podiatrists are allopathic medical doctor specializing if feet and ankles, they should be allowed to put M.D.-Podiatry behind their name. I mean a cardiologist treats hearts, a podiatrists treats feet, both are from allopathic line of medicine. If i'm not wrong, some of the teachers or faculty at Nova COM are Podiatrists (listed on their catalog).</STRONG>

Podiatrist are NOT "allopathic medical doctor specializing [on] feet and ankle."

As far as I understand they are they're there own profession. It's not a branch of allopathic medicine....

Sandj9397, can you please correct me if I'm wrong.... I've followed your postings (including the back and forth thing with "the message) and I find your information to be factual and useful.... Thus, I trust that you probably know more about this than I do. Thanx in advance....

You are right popoy it is not the same thing. To be any type of medical specialist, it takes general residency training plus fellowship training as you all know for most specialties. A very long process indeed. Podiatrists do not receieve that extensive broad based medical training. Most of their training obviously is in podiatric medicine and surgery with emphasis on orthopedics and skin/wound care. Medical students wiil rotate through more branches of medicine and surgery obtaining a larger knowledge base before obtaining their degree. Podiatry combines some aspects of several allopathic medical specialties like orthopedics but they do not have a full medical license like M.D.s and D.O.s A cardiologist could also practice internal medicine, a podiatrist could not. They have their own residencies an boards. Podiatry has changed drastically from 20-30 yrs ago when podiatric residencies did not exist.

Yet their scope of practice varies state from state, anywhere from the hip(Georgia) to below the malleoli in New York. Of course orthopedic surgeons have a large influence on that. Since podiatry is not the definitive allopathic specialty that only licensed physicians practice, there are a multitude of other health profession whom have begun to practice foot care adding to the woes of pods. For instance, PAs and RN are also practicing foot care.
Remember that there only around 14,000 DPMs. Where do you think the foot care is coming from in underserved areas of the U.S? It is coming from their FPs. Podiatrist treat only 5 percent of the total foot ailments in this country. HMOs love cheap foot care and they will pay anyone who comes by with the cheapest price tag. Their training does qualify them to provide excellent care to elderly,diabetic, PVD patients and sports medicine or any general ailments. They perform soft tissue and bone surgery. Their "bread and butter" is of course nail clipping, wound care(ex:diab ulcers, and removal or corns, calluses, warts etc. Podiatrists will serve on clinical faculty of some medical schools and staff of hospitals where podiatrists are prominent. It is very confusing because podiatrists receive 5-8 years of medical and surgical training with the power to prescribe meds and perform surgery. But they are not licensed physicians. Podiatrists are an important part of the health care team. I believe they are they most knowledgeable and trained.

In summary, podiatrists employ allopathic principles of surgery and medicine. Yet the are distinct separate profession with their own schools, residencies, boards, and organizations. Their training though similar to MDs and DOs, is not adequate grant them the Full privliges of licensed physicians.

Lets see if we can clarify some of this just a little bit more.

Theere are 7 Podiatry schools in the US. After 4 years they award a Doctorate in Podiatric Medicine (DPM), after which residency training follows. This is currently undergoing some major changes. Requirements vary by state, with most now requiring at least 1 year.

There are various Podiatric residencies available. PPMR (Pod primary med res), POR (Pod Orthopedic Res - which has an emphasis on biomechanics), PSR-12 and PSR-24 (Pos Surgery Res - 12 mth and 24 mth), RPR (Rotating Pod Res). There are also a few PSR-24+. And many of the PPMRs are linked to and followed by PSR-12s. Pretty confusing. The push right now is for standardization.

Yes, podiatrists are physicians. I haven't read NY state code, but Medicare/Medicaid does classify DPMs as physicians.

My dictionary shows 1. a person licensed to practice medicine, 2. a person who practices general medicine as distinct from surgery, 3. a person who heals or exerts a healing influence. I suppose an arguement could be made that many are surgeons instead.

Allopathic is a poor term. It comes from allos (other) + pathy (suffering). It is considered a method of treating disease using treatment different than that which caused the disease. It was derived to differentiate "normal" medicine form homeopathic treatment (same + suffering); in which the treatment used is something that causes the same symptoms. Current usage has come to use the term allopathic to differentiate "normal" medicine from osteopathic medicine. The type of medine that is practiced by podiatrists is not homeopathy, naturopathy or osteopathy. It can rightly be considered a type of allopathic medicine. Just keep in mind that the term does not signify a particular philosophical school of thought or type of medicine.

The history of medicine is quite interesting. Look back at the differences between "medicine" and "surgery". Look at the Flexner report. Look at homeopathy and osteopathy. Look into the history of orthopaedics. Consider the time frames involved and the changes in the educational processes. Look into the education of physicians around the time this country was founded. Think about how much it has changed since the advent of the "antibiotic era". You probably won't find much on the history of podiatry though. As podiatry it is a relatively young profession. Maybe try looking for it as chiropody. Lots of interesting stuff out there.
:)

New York State code does not classify podiatrists as physicians. I know when we use terms like allopathic,osteopathic we are confusing the point. But, Podiatrists do not practice general medicine nor are they licensed to do so. If physician means one trained and licensed to practice general medicine then term can not apply. I believe the term to be too broad. Rather, DPMs are podiatric physicians licensed to practice on the foot and ankle seems more adequate.
The practice of treating foot ailments have existed for quite a while. But it is difficult to find any literature on podiatry's history. I guess not a large demand. Emf, are you a pod stud at DMU?

A good source for history of podiatry are journals. Unfortunately if you are not at one of the podiatry school they may be hard to find.

Yes, I am at DMU.

Eric

Eric,

Doesn't all that stuff anger you. This bull**** going on nowadays. I admit I was once brainwashed. But I have done my research. These tactics are plain wrong and I can not believe there are students out there with the 100k+ 40hr a week proposals. I wish more students at podiatry school will acknowledge there are problems and stop walking around having no idea what they are in for after graduation and residency. What specific journals are you referring to by the way?

Caveat Emptor.

If I am going to be spending this kind of money on education, you can be sure that I am going to find out whether or not I can afford it. I also look closely at the numbers. That $100,000+ figure that is thrown around is an average, and I believe it picks up to that number after around 10 years. In the same survey you will see that first year out of residency the numbers are more like $40,000. You cannot believe eveything you read.

I don't quite believe the 40 hour workweek thing either, but to some extent that depends on where you are and what you want to put into it. I do know that at the residency I was shadowing folks at they had fairly regular clinic hours. Usually in at 8 AM and done by 5 or 6. The Family Practice Residents on the other hand . . .
(In fact the FP residents did their best to talk me out of even taking the MCAT.)

Does Podiatry have problems? Sure. So what, each of the other areas of medicine has their problems as well. Just be aware of them. Don't stick your head in the sand. Do what you can to fix them or work around them. Help make things better for those following you. (That whole negative attitude is not doing anything to help - Podiatry Students Forum is NOT doing much to help, it's more of a place for people to vent.) But awareness is a good starting point.

One of the journals that I enjoy reading is the Clinics in Podiatric Medicine and Surgery, lots of good stuff, but not the best for history. JAPMA (or the former JAPA) doesn't have the best clinical material, but it does have some good stuff onthe hjistory of podiatry. Particularly if you go back to some of the earlier issues of JAPA - in fact this is reallly the modern history of podiatry. Consider the radical changes that were happening only 40 years or so ago. Of course modern medicine has itself changed drastically in the past 60 years (think antibiotics). To see how podiatry fits into the big picture you really need to know a bit about the history of medicine and surgery in general.
Other journals - Foot & Ankle Surgery, Foot and Ankle International, The Foot (older - I think this one is no longer printed).

Try these:
Dagnall JC: 50th anniversary issue. British Journal of Chiropody 48(7):137,1983.
Gibley: History of Podiatric Medical Education. JAPMA 77(8):Aug 1987.
Levy: Podiatric Medical Education and Practice 1960s to the 21st Century. JAPMA 86(8): Aug 1996.
Podell: Issues in the Organization of Medical Care. NEJM 284(11) Mar 18, 1971.
(Think of this one as a snapshot of how podiatry was viewed by the MD communitee in 1971.)
There are certainly many more. Also interesting reading is the history of orthopaedics. And surgery. And the history of medical education in this country.

Hope this give you some good stuff to look into. It really is fun. :)

since when podiatry is not a branch of allopathic medicine. (except the one school linked to osteopathic school). And who says podiatrists are not physicians???? Isn't it true that during 3rd and 4th year training/rotation, a podiatry student by law is allowed if he/she chose to rotate to any medical specialty and perform the same medical techniques as other medical students (MD/DO) under the supervision of an attending??? and isn't the first two years are roughly equal for podiatric med and regular med school??? In my opinion a podiatrist has to have the knowledge of a whole human body but licensed to practice on the lower extremities. I mean a podiatrist need to know if a drug could induce a certain side effect or if a person with some condition can't take certain drugs for his foot problems........whole body knowledge is thus needed and is taught in the pod schools. SO a podiatrist is a physician

PuppyLuv, I was wondering.... do you think chiroprators are physicians?

The type of medicine practiced by podiatrists would rightly fall under "allopathic", but as I have pointed out previously, this is not an accurate term.

The podiatry school in Philadelphia is part of Temple University, which has an Osteopathic medical school. Des Moines University likewise trains both osteopathic and podiatric students. The first two years curriculum is roughly the same. Part of the argument you will hear is that the podiatry students are give a "watered down" version, as they are not intelligent enough to handle the same courses. I'm not sure I would quite agree with this. In Des Moines, the first year courses are held with the DO students. In the second year they are separate. I doubt they are all that much different though. The podiatry students also take Lower limb Anatomy and other podiatry courses as well. From what I have seen, a major focus in the DO program was preparation for USMLE/COMLEX. Not sure what this really does for your education. Think about having a high school curriculum whose major focus was to build up the students to score well on the SAT/ACT. Teaching towards a test does not necessarily educate.

During clinical rotations podiatry students may find themselves on internal medicine or other "general" types of rotations. They are expected to function as any other medical student would. As none of them have any type of license at this point, they are all working under the license of their attendings, etc. Any procedures that can be done by that licensed provider could be performed under their guidance.

Podiatrists do need to learn "all of the body", but will practice under a limited license. This does not prevent them from knowing when a patient is suffering from CHF and needs to see their primary physician. They are limited in their treatment.

Another thing to consider with the limited practice is that MOST physicians will also limit their practice, even with an MD or DO license. It only makes sense. You cannot do everything and do it all well. An orthopedic surgeon will most likely not take on a high-risk delivery. An Ob-Gyn will probably not attempt an IM nailing of a fractured femur. For either to do so would open them to liability. In actual practice the "unlimited license" really isn't.

Popoy,

Just curious, do you think DCs are physicians?

Also curious, what is your opinion of osteopathic cranial techniques?

The point I was going to make is one you've already pointed out.... That is, that it's really a matter of definitions. Some people feel that the word "doctor" and "physicians" are interchangeable and others do not....

You ask me if DC's are physician.... I'm inclined to say NO.... Doctors.... Yes by definition of degree.... This has been discussed before in the other forums and the concensus feel that DC's are NOT "true" physicians (whether or not it's licensure or practice).... Does that mean they don't know the whole body? Of course not. ... I'm actually very impress by the depth of knowledge that some of the chiropractors I've met.... As well as, I'm very impress about the podiatrist I've shadowed.... I would actually trust my feet to a podiatrist than I do to an orthopedic MD or DO....as you have stated podiatry students learn along side MDs and DOs depending on the school but the emphasis is different....

What to I feel about Craniosacral techniques?
I honestly cannot tell you as I have yet to start learning about them.... I'm sure I'll meet you sometime down the road during my years at DMU.... Please introduce yourself when you see me :) This is assuming that you'll probably hear more about me than me about you....

The limited knowledge I know is that Sutherland, DO extended this knowledge based on A.T. Still's principles.... I can see how chiropractors may use this techniques on their patients.... I've been informed by a friend before that the techniques of chiropractors and OMM sometimes overlap, though I've never gone into detail about this....

The origins of chiropractic medicine was by D.D. Palmer (Founder of Chiropractic medicine) was documented coming from Des Moines.... they are uncertain as to whether or not he was a patient or student of Still's. So with that respect he too might have been trained as an osteopathic doctor before founding chiropractic medicine....

Are you're questions to evoke some type of me being biased towards a certain profession? I hope not.... I've explored, at some level, podiatric medicine, chiropractic medicine, osteopathic (obviously), allopathic (I know how much you think this is ill defined, but I'll use it anyway to describe MDs), nursing, nurse practitioners, PAs, etc.... I decided to choose what best fits what I want to do for life.... I have every respect for my fellow health professionals and believe in their training in every way.... I'm actually one to defend podiatric medicine to my friends. I've even gone head to head with the anatomy professor at UCDavis Medical school because he felt that "podiatrist don't cut it...."

I even pointed out to people I know that I'm glad to be able to take classes with podiatric students at DMU.... I say the more interaction the better for all health profession.... instead of the constant segregation based on degrees....

I guess we may just have a difference in definition.... what do you think?

SO the point is, be what you want to be!!!

Just be aware of what others may think instead of being ignorant about it....

I took the liberty to take a look at the scheduled courses for Podiatry and Osteopathic students at DMU.... Here's the difference for those interested:

First year:
Osteopathic students take that Podiatry students DO NOT take:
1) OPP
2) Med Humanities and Ethics I
3) OMM I
4) Radiology
5) Pharmacolgy
6) BLS
7) Medline
8) ICCM

Podiatric students take that Osteopathic students DO NOT take:
1) Pod Medicine I
2) Biomechanics

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second Year:
Osteopathic Students take and Podiatric students DO NOT take:
1) Cardio (Pods take a combo Cardio/Resp)
2) Resp
3) Nutrition
4) Ophthalmology
5) ENT
6) Endocrinology
7) Human Reproduction
8) BRDS BR (I'm not sure what that means)
9) Neonatology
10) Psych
11) Dermatology
12) R.O. (I'm not sure what that stands for either)
13) Physical Diagnosis II
14) OMM II
15) Med Humanities and Bioethics
16) ACLS
17) BLS Recertification
18) Neonat Lab
19) Ophth Lab
20) ENT Lab
21) Basic Surgical Skills
22) Intro Clinical Prob Solving I and II

Podiatric Students take and osteopathic students DO NOT take:
1) Pharmacology (Pods take this second year instead of first like osteo students)
2) Cardio/Resp (Osteo take separately and longer)
3) Lower Limb Anatomy
4) Pod Medicine II
5) Pod Surgery
6) Pod Clinical Rotation
7) Biomechanics II
8) Med Research and writing

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Similarities
First year:
1) Anatomy
2) Biochem
3) Histo
4) Immuno
5) Psych/Beh Med
6) Physio
7) Microbio
8) Path
9) Physical Diagnosis
10) Neuro

Second year:
1) Hema
2) Renal
3) GI
4) Neuro
(Note: Pods take these classes separately from Osteo)

Also there's a SPAL Lab that Osteopathic students take that I'm not sure whether or not Podiatric students take....

My information is based on a hand out given at the Office of Registrar at DMU so it may not be complete but it gives a general overview.

I agree with you about DCs. I also don't think I would disagree with most of what you've said. (Have to leave myself a little room.)

My questions were purely out of curiosity. I should not have presumed that you would have formed any opinion about cranial techniques just yet. It's just one of those areas that even has the DO students shaking their heads sometimes.

Glad to see that you have taken the time to educate yourself about the various medical professions. Wish that others would do the same.

It's all good :D

I try my best to get to know the other health professionals that I'm sure I'll be working with someday.... It helps me better understand and appreciate each of them....

See ya' 'round DMU :cool:

A small correction in regards to the Temple schoolis that they only have an allopathic medical program there. PCOM is around but they have no affiliation with each other.

Ill give you credit message this forum is growing.

Originally posted by sandj9397:
<STRONG>Ill give you credit message this forum is growing.</STRONG>

I hope it continues to grow with folks like you and efs around.... many students can benefit from both of your knowledge on the current status of podiatry.... So I hope both of you stick around....

Keep up the great work folks :cool:

Podiatrists do need to learn the body as healthcare provider. But their clinical years are not as comprehensive, nor their residency training for obvious reasons. Also, curriculums do vary with some classes "watered down" but not because of the lack of intelligence but because of relative importance to podiatry. Many classes at NYCPM were taught by faculty of Mt. Sinai Medical school and Albert Einstein.
Of course, most medical specialists are reluctant to perform any procedures outside the realm of expertise, but they could and have probably at one point in their training if related. That's the difference. Yet, to arrive at that level of expertise the road most likely involved many years of clinical training as a resident licensed without supervision. Podiatry is in a way a shortcut. A shortcut in to practice specialized medicine and surgery without the 5-8 yrs of residency and fellowship. But they accept a different title and suffer from a lack of exposure or respect through some factions of the medical community. They are limited in treatment because their training is limited which ties back to their curriculum. That's why the comparison to physician gets confusing. Because they practice medicine like any physcian, but they are not licensed nor trained in the same manner they do not have the privilge in some states. So what do you call them?
To digress for a sec, at NYCPM classes like IM,EM,Surgery were strictly lecture classes with no clinical exposure given in my opinion prematurely during the second year. The students didn't even have BLS like in other medical schools.(school did not require at that point). For you pod students at other schools, when do they begin patient contact. Are lecture courses based in clinical medicine given early in a manner similar to NYCPM without the clinic. The experience might be diff at other schools. At NYCPM students do not see the inside of a hospital or clinic intil the third year. I can not speak for other pod schools, but its time some school join the 21century. Major curriclum changes are needed. Why not use PBL? or other models like PBL, or the Block system?

Popoy, You were not correct with the course line-up. I think you were very incorrect earlier. So here are the courses that we are required to take!

Year 1
Fall Semester
Gross Anatomy
Histology
Biochemistry
Podiatric Medicine I / Geriatrics
PMD 112 Introduction to Medicine

Spring Semester
Lower Extremity Anatomy
Neurobiology
Physiology
Basic Microbiology and Immunology
Physical Diagnosis
Biomechanics

Second Year Program
Fall Semester
Microbiology and Infectious Disease
Pathology
Pharmacology and Therapeutics
Biomechanics
Physical Medicine & Rehab
Biomechanics Podiatric Medicine II
Physical Diagnosis

Spring Semester
Pathology Case Study
Pathology
Pharmacology and Therapeutics
Podiatric Medicine II
Podiatric Medical Skills
Radiology

Year 3
Fall semester
Introduction to Podiatric Surgery
Public Health Jurisprudence
Neurology
Dermatology
General Medicine
Podopediatrics
Podiatric Surgery

Spring Semester
Business Administration
General Medicine
Sports Medicine
Podiatric Surgery
Traumatology

Temple universities course line-up is found here!
[URL=http://www.temple.edu/medschool/mededu/Mdcurriculum.html]

Me incorrect? Okay.... I stand corrected.... if I am incorrect.... BUT....

If you read my post the required courses I stated are in categories of similarities and difference in courses of osteopathic and podiatry students at DMU....DMU = Des Moines University NOT TEMPLE!!! Now if you can prove to me that you're talking about DMU then I'm wrong.... otherwise, I'm right about DMU's courses.... Next time you might want to read it before saying I'm incorrect....

You're correct about your required courses for Temple Univ.... You're incorrect about me being incorrect about DMU's courses....

Here's a suggestion: Try reading the post before responding, then think about what or how you'll be responding....

Wow Popoy! I pulled out Temple to show some differences in Temple's course line-up, not DMU! I corrected you in the message prior. Lets not be so insecure my friend!

Originally posted by the message:
<STRONG>Wow Popoy! I pulled out Temple to show some differences in Temple's course line-up, not DMU! I corrected you in the message prior. Lets not be so insecure my friend!</STRONG>

No insecurities here.... really, read your post and see where I'm coming from.... You stated that I'm incorrect.... and I ask you about what? No where did you say that you were comparing DMU's to Temples....

Originally posted by the message:
<STRONG>Popoy, You were not correct with the course line-up. I think you were very incorrect earlier. So here are the courses that we are required to take!</STRONG>

Here... I'll even bring down the only sentence you really wrote.... Now I ask you, where in this was there a note of comparison with DMU and Temple? You just blatantly said "You were not correct with the course line up."

Really, I'd read more and think more if I were you.... No offense.... Just stating the facts, no hard feelings here.

Message,
You are a ball buster man I love it! Guys does it really matter?

Originally posted by sandj9397:
<STRONG>Message,
You are a ball buster man I love it! Guys does it really matter?</STRONG>

Nope :D

I also took the liberty of comparing the DO and DPM schedules - with the added advantage that I have taken the majority of these courses. It is an impressive list that Popoy put together, but I think I would do it differently. I would rather start with the similarities, and then look to the differences. To save some typing I’ll be doing some cutting and pasting and add my comments rather than quote the whole long list first. That should also make it easier to follow.

First year both take:
1) Anatomy
2) Biochemistry
3) Histology
4) Immunology
5) Psych/Behavioral Med
6) Physiology
7) Microbiology
8) Pathology
9) Physical Diagnosis (The SPAL Lab you were wondering about is part of PD.)
10) Neuroanatomy
(Had this part right. And these are taken together.)

They also both take:
1) BLS (One afternoon – many students are also instructors)
2) Medline (1 ? hour introduction)

Podiatric students take that Osteopathic students DO NOT take:
1) Pod Medicine I
2) Biomechanics I

Osteopathic students take that Podiatry students DO NOT take:
1) OPP ? (I did not see this on the schedule. But I do see that you did not list Intro to Osteopathic Medicine. It might be Osteopathic Principles and Practice. If so contrast this one week course with the 8 weeks for Pod Med I.)
2) Med Humanities and Ethics I (This is the first year that the DPM students are not taking this one. The course curriculum for this has changed twice in the past two years. I think the stuff we should have gotten here is going to be incorporated into Pod Med I. Rumors only.)
3) OMM I (Obviously.)
4) Radiology (This is a weeklong course. The DPMs take a more extensive radiology course in their second year. Podiatry actually uses radiology quite a bit.)
5) Pharmacology (Rather than at the end of the first year, we are taking this at the beginning of the second year. Our class was the first to do it this way. Other than timing, the courses are essentially the same. We take the same end of course SHELF exam as the DOs. We scored higher.)

6) ICCM ? (Also not sure what this one is. From where it is listed I think it might be one of the intro to the library and computer systems type courses. If that is the case, the DPMs take it as well. Probably noticed they didn’t list the BLS and Medline course on our schedule either.)

Somehow that doesn’t look very different now. The really significant differences are OMM vs. Pod Med/Biomechanics. There are other minor differences, i.e. when we are taking the pharm course etc., but I would just about bet that there are bigger differences between any two DO schools. My point is that we are both taught essentially the same thing. For that matter two students may pick up different amounts from the same courses. Well, lets go take a look at the rest of it.

Second Year Both take:
Hematology
Endocrinology
Renal
GI
Neurology

(As rightly pointed out these courses are given separately for the DOs and DPMs. At first glance on the schedule it appears that the DOs get longer (Therefore must be better and more complete.) courses. You might not have noticed that the DPMs do almost all of their systems courses in the first semester. Lower Limb Anatomy, etc take up the major part of the second. Not sure how it will work with Pod Med II at the same time. During our lower limb course, that is all we did, all day long, all week long for 6+ weeks.) Our systems courses are more compressed opn the calender, but we take only one at a time.

Osteopathic Students take and Podiatric students DO NOT take:
1) Cardio (Pods take a combo Cardio/Resp) (You might also notice that when we are taking our systems courses we are not taking anything else. During our “shorter” courses we are doing that one sytem all day every day. The DOs have a longer time for each system, but they are also taking PD II, OMM II and Medical humanities at the same time.)(Not to say that one way is better than the other - just pointing out a reason for some of the apparent differerence.)
2) Resp
3) Nutrition (Not sure where this went on the schedule. DPMs did take this last year.)
4) Ophthalmology
5) ENT
6) Human Reproduction
7) BRDS BR (I'm not sure what that means) (I do. It is an additional break for Boards. Hmmm, seems I had clinical rotations the same time as my boards.)
8) Neonatology
9) Psychiatry
10) Dermatology (another one of those one week classes. The DPMs have a longer Derm course in their third year.)
11) R.O. (I'm not sure what that stands for either) (Neither am I, maybe Rheum/Ortho – which is included as part of our Pod Med II.)
12) Physical Diagnosis II
13) OMM II
14) Med Humanities and Bioethics

15) Neonat Lab (These labs are brief introductions)
16) Ophth Lab
17) ENT Lab
18) Basic Surgical Skills (Intro to Sterile technique. Quite a few DPM students are helping teach this one.)
19) Intro Clinical Prob Solving I and II

(I took out the ACLS and BLS recert. DPMs have this during the third year. These are going to be things that all of us have to redo every two years from now on. They really are not a big deal.)

Podiatric Students take and osteopathic students DO NOT take:
1) Pharmacology (Pods take this second year instead of first like osteo students) (Right, and we scored higher on the same SHELF exam. There was some talk of moving the Pharm course to the second year for the DOs as well. Since the schedule is out it looks like they decided against it.)
2) Cardio/Resp (Osteo take separately and longer) (Taken over a longer time period, at the same time they are taking other courses. I’m not sure how the actual course hours work out.)
3) Lower Limb Anatomy (Obviously a big one for us. Ask your anatomy profs what they think of this course.)
4) Pod Medicine II (Last year they combined our Rheumatology and Orthopedics course with Pod Med II. Guess that might make our lists look a little shorter.)
5) Pod Surgery (Another big one for us.)
6) Pod Clinical Rotation (Second year includes a summer clinical rotation. For somone else on the list who was asking, this is where we have our first patient contact – other than in the SPAL lab in PD.)
7) Biomechanics II (Yet another important course for us.)
8) Med Research and Writing (This one continues halfway through our third year.)

Looks like the second years really do begin to differ significantly. The third and fourth years for both are made up of a variety of clinical rotations. Most of the DOs are out of town starting at this point. The rest of their education may vary greatly depending on what types of rotations they get. (I’m not sure how much choice they have in setting up their rotations.) For the DPMs most of our third year rotations are local (at least within Iowa). (Hope to have more info on this in the next 2 weeks when we start.) In any case, we are still here for classes. Because of clinics they are not every day after this point. So in addition to what we already had for differences.

Third Year DPMs
OR Protocols
Dermatology
Trauma/Emergency Medicine
Managed Care
Gerontology
Principles and Practices of Pod Medicine

It really is the first year or year and a half, which are pretty much the same. The rest differs, as you might expect. We will have different focuses, but the basic medical education is not all that different.

I hope this better shows what our curriculum is. I think it is interesting to see how similar they are, as well as noting the differences. The differences are important, which is part of what makes each a unique profession. (Also glad to see others trying to understand and appreciate ours.)

For further thought. I suppose when they each finished that first 4 years, the DO might go on for a surgical residency, then orthopedics residency then to a foot and ankle fellowship. What do you think might would be the differences in how that person and a DPM would approach a problem foot? Which spent more time learning learning about foot and ankle problems?
:)

WOW!!! Thanks Eric....

It does appear we all pretty much do the same things except the major differences of OPP/OMM and Pod/Biomech, etc....

I agree with your last statement there.... That's why I'd rather place my trust on a podiatrist for my foot.... :D

Wow, that what was pretty extensive. You have to be careful to compare curriculums between two schools and assume that applies across the board. It might be possible at DMU, but I know curriculums can vary quite a bit in podiatry schools. Are the classes at DMU taught by the same professors with the same tests and credit hours? You can not tell by the names in a curricum, the actual difficulty or depth of any course. If everything is similar, why are the pod boards a quiz compared to the USMLE?

In your opinion guys, do you think the pod students have the training to take and do well on the USMLE. Damn its HOT today in NYC!

I am really not sure how we would do on the USMLE. I don't think it is a difference in the basic education either. I think I alluded to it earlier, but there is another difference in our focus. The first half of our second year we went through the systems courses. The second half was essentially only podiatry. Nobody mentioned boards until about 2 months ago. There was no real "board review" course offered. (Instead of going on about it here, I'll start a new thread on this. Might have some others with input.)

The differnce with the DOs was noticable. Almost from the beginning of their second year, there was some sort of board review going on. Weekend stuff being offered, etc. Quite a bit of the classes are focused on "Board material". "This is the kind of stuff that you might see on the boards."

Almost as though they were teaching towards the test. We lacked this strong emphasis on USMLE/COMLEX. Might have some affect on how well we do on that test.

Makes me wonder what was done before large standardized tests. I suppose you cannot be a quality physician without passing one. :D
Wonder what sort of test Osler had to pass? (Or Still?)

You would think the suffering would be enough with the MCAT and all the other torturous test students have to take. For instance the anatomy lab practical. Oh, I hated the time limit on each station. Drove me nuts, the brachial plexus, cranial nerves UGH!!

At DMU they offered no form of board review at all?

For NBPME - not really. Some of the students set up "review" sessions with many of hte profs, but these ewre not well attended. I doubt they would have helped much. (I didn't go to any of them.) The way the test is set up it can really cover everything we studied, and there is no way to adequately "prep" for the test. You either know the material or you don't.

Gross Anatomy practicals were relatively easy. Identify this bone and be specific(may be a left or right 2nd 3rd 4th metatarsal, etc.) What nerve serves the muscle that attaches at this point. Etc. You get the idea. I'm not really sure how any of that (or even the stuff we had in Gross) is supposed to relate to what we will do in practice, but I am pretty sure I have a better understanding of lower limb anatomy than most MD/DO students.

We've each had a different experience (though similar), but they should all serve us well in our different endeavors. :)

I think with a review course and some additonal courses such as psch and the others not covered in podiatry school I think alot of pod students could pass the usmle of course our scores would not be as high as other students, but I think it can be done because we have the bulk concepts. Although I think it would take a heck of alot of studying. I dont think I could pass any basic science test right now though as soon as I finished my exam I think I lost about 75% of the knowledge I had before I press the submit button.

It is unfortunate that DPMs do not get respect like they should. One of the four physicians that I am lucky enough to have as role models is a podiatrist. It is funny to me when family docs espouse that they know how to treat podiatric problems (be they traumatic, diabetic or whatever). After having spent some extracurricular time with the aforementioned podiatrist while on my family rotation last year, it became quite clear to me that allo and osteopathic physicians just don't have the training to comprehensively treat diseases of the foot. Period. Orthopods may do an excellent job of fixing orthopedic probs, but you will find few foot and ankle orthopods who are also as excellent at diabetic wound management.

Podiatrists train from day one to specialize in foot & ankle pathology. They do it the best in my opinion. When I am in practice i hope that i will have a good podiatrist near by that I can refer patients to.

Thanks for the comments.

:)

here is an idiotic question.. why don't we have arm doctors but we have foot doctors?

There are many more foot problems than there are arm problems. A key thing to consider is independence. Without feet, or the ability to walk, you will likely be dependent on someone else for many daily activities.

There are orthopedic surgeons who specialize in the hand.

Hey efs! Don't give this guy the time of day. Did you ever find out anymore information on the history of chiropdy?

I realize he said it was an idiotic question - so it must be from an ???? :D
However I feel that the best response is to react cordially. I think it is fairly clear to anyone who would read it. I don't see much point it telling people what kinds of morons they are. (Once in a while someone really needs it though.)

I have done quite a bit of reading. Just need a bit more prodding to put something online. I've been busy lately with about 6-8 different projects going. I'll see if I can't get something out there this weekend.


:p