I just would like to hear opinions about why it's beneficial to get married if one isn't traditional or religious? I can see why back in the day it was popular, because if you were a woman you were helpless and by gosh there was no way you could actually make it in the world without a man!!! (note sarcasm...) I mean that saying " Why buy the cow if you get the milk for free)? How absurd is that? Are we livestock? I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion of marriage, I'm trying to make my opinion evident, because I'm in a situation now, where I have 3 kids, and a spouse and we have the best lives!!! I could take care of myself without him an vise versa. Also, if we ever did part I'm sure we would continue to share the same interest in the well being of our children( I know I can only speak for myself in definitive terms here). But the way marriages break up anymore, what exactly is the difference? Perhaps if so many didn't just get married out of obligation all the divorces wouldn't be so. I mean it was different back in the day not because people had more morals, but probably because they felt they had no choice. I don't know about you but I vote for choice over living a trapped and abysmal life any day of the week.

Dunno, maybe prevent the situation where your kids are ruthlessly teased as "lil bastards". I have some relatives who are single unweds moms and the invariably after some of my cousins are drunk the lil bastard phrases begin flying. Usually the outcome of such is bad, mkay?

Is this situation where you have 3 kids with 3 different "baby daddies"? or what? Because if so you have a whole different set of problems.

Stability. For your relationship and for your kids. Also, taking a vow to stay together (and meaning it) may cause you to stick out difficult situations longer than if there is no vow made. You might possibly be able to stick out the tough times until they improve.

I just would like to hear opinions about why it's beneficial to get married if one isn't traditional or religious?

Because you get to throw a huge party that other people pay for! And you get gifts! And diamonds! And a vacation! And to act like a princess for at least a day, and probably several months before the day as well! Duh!! :rolleyes:

(Obviously the worst set of reasons ever, but it may be that fewer and fewer people all the time think beyond them to the concept of "marriage" as opposed to just getting stuck on the "wedding" bit.) I'm with lilnoelle, personally--stability and the value of a commitment.

Dunno, maybe prevent the situation where your kids are ruthlessly teased as "lil bastards". I have some relatives who are single unweds moms and the invariably after some of my cousins are drunk the lil bastard phrases begin flying. Usually the outcome of such is bad, mkay?

Is this situation where you have 3 kids with 3 different "baby daddies"? or what? Because if so you have a whole different set of problems.


No, no 3 different baby daddy's... who said I had a problem? I just don't see why I should get married just because that's what most people do, because no offense, but there are a lot of screwed up people in the world. It's almost like I'm trying to convince myself.

Stability. For your relationship and for your kids. Also, taking a vow to stay together (and meaning it) may cause you to stick out difficult situations longer than if there is no vow made. You might possibly be able to stick out the tough times until they improve.


Thanks, I appreciate your response as it comes off as informational and not judgemental. My boyfriend and I have been together for seven years, so we have been throught alot!! You have no idea!! Actually, we are in a very awesome place right now! The reason why I stayed through some of the rough times was because of our kids, no marriage needed. On the other hand 50 % of married people get divorced. I think it depends on your mentality. The glue that holds us together is that our children are the most important people to us in the WORLD!! I don't think people need marriage, I think they need lessons in selflessness.

Dunno, maybe prevent the situation where your kids are ruthlessly teased as "lil bastards". I have some relatives who are single unweds moms and the invariably after some of my cousins are drunk the lil bastard phrases begin flying. Usually the outcome of such is bad, mkay?

Is this situation where you have 3 kids with 3 different "baby daddies"? or what? Because if so you have a whole different set of problems.


Ok!!!!! Maybe the problems in the world have more to do with the fact that there are adults who call children BASTARDS when they get drunk!! If marriage automatically instilled the necessary tools for parenting, along with some common sense, I'd say yessss!!!! I'm all for it!! My theory is the world is a mess partially, because we treat our children, who eventually grow up and run it, LIKE SH%#!!! Not because people aren't getting married.

Because you get to throw a huge party that other people pay for! And you get gifts! And diamonds! And a vacation! And to act like a princess for at least a day, and probably several months before the day as well! Duh!! :rolleyes:

(Obviously the worst set of reasons ever, but it may be that fewer and fewer people all the time think beyond them to the concept of "marriage" as opposed to just getting stuck on the "wedding" bit.) I'm with lilnoelle, personally--stability and the value of a commitment.


Thanks for your reply. I feel like we have been more committed to our children than we had been to each other at times, and that's why we're still together. However, now we are becoming more and more committed to each other every day. I think that what we have is the perfect definition of what family should be without the marriage. That's why I feel like marriage will be just a matter of legality for us. Is it financially beneficial, I wonder? For either of us?

The OP represents a common problem amongst women now a days. Why get married?

Short term.... no reason.

Long term.... Kids require a father in their life present at home otherwise they are more likely to be promiscuous, less intelligent/lower academic achievement and end up with a broken family themselves. This is demonstrated by multiple studies on pubmed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1946827?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA (Academic performance.) Social deviation. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1157613?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

There are more but it's too much for me to list and it makes sense too. Boys look for their dad as an example of a guy to follow and girls will look for their dad as an example of whom she needs to look for to date. You can think of it this way, "Was your relationship with your dad important?"

From the woman's stand point.. there is no reason anymore to be married other than religious. However to destroy your family for a whim is pretty sad and the only victims here would be the children whom if they had a choice they would have wanted their dad and mom to be together for them.

The OP represents a common problem amongst women now a days. Why get married?

Short term.... no reason.

Long term.... Kids require a father in their life present at home otherwise they are more likely to be promiscuous, less intelligent/lower academic achievement and end up with a broken family themselves. This is demonstrated by multiple studies on pubmed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1946827?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA (http://Academic performance.) Social deviation. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1157613?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

There are more but it's too much for me to list and it makes sense too. Boys look for their dad as an example of a guy to follow and girls will look for their dad as an example of whom she needs to look for to date. You can think of it this way, "Was your relationship with your dad important?"

From the woman's stand point.. there is no reason anymore to be married other than religious. However to destroy your family for a whim is pretty sad and the only victims here would be the children whom if they had a choice they would have wanted their dad and mom to be together for them.


Thank you for the reply, but our family is intact. Also, being married these days does not equal an intact family apparently 50 % of the time. Our family is doing wonderfully and we are not going anywhere.

Here's a male perspective.

I will not get married in the US unless I meet a woman who makes substantially more money than I do. The divorce statistics are alarming and 3/4s of the time its the women who file for divorce first. Now, one can argue that the men did something for the women to pull the trigger but the bottom line or as Machiavelli would say the "effective truth" is that statistically speaking she's the one who is taking the affirmative step towards divorce a majority of the time.

Its the higher income earner who gets screwed in a divorce which has usually been the man by virtue of him focusing solely on his career and women generally marrying up to someone more successful. The saying no good deed goes unpunished is especially true in marriage. The more you do for you wife, the better you try to make marital life from a financial standpoint the more you are liable. For example, alimony is financial support given to a spouse who cannot be financially self sufficient. This means that if you decide to become the sole income earner so that your wife can stay home and raise a family thereby causing her to leave the workforce, she can later claim that after being out of work for a lengthy period of time she needs alimony until she can become financially self sufficient again. This can mean anything from a few years to paying for any higher education she chooses to receive. Worse yet, if you marry a stay at home wife who never worked you can be liable for long term alimony and in some states depending on the length of the marriage it can be lifetime alimony. Since alimony terminates on the death of the paying spouse or remarriage by the receiving spouse, a common litigation tactic by divorce attorneys is to petition the court to force the alimony paying spouse to take out a life insurance policy on himself naming the alimony receiving spouse as sole beneficiary so that payments can continue even after you are dead! This doesn't even take into account separate payments for child support and division of property and other assets based on the mother being granted custody of the children b/c she's considered the primary care giver by the courts 90% of the time. As a man the only way to gain custody is to prove through evidence that the mother is a drug addict or engages in behavior that endangers the welfare of the child/children.

The above are what happens to the higher income earner which has traditionally been the man. However, the tide is turning and more women are out earning men as they become the higher income earners in marriages. This is good news for guys. If I do get married it will be to a woman who makes a lot more money than I do so that she can assume the liabilities of the higher income earner. I'll also refuse to sign a prenup claiming that she doesn't trust me, marriage is about love, blah blah blah. In today's world Machiavelli's axioms are needed more than ever.

Thank you for the reply, but our family is intact. Also, being married these days does not equal an intact family apparently 50 % of the time. Our family is doing wonderfully and we are not going anywhere.

Why does everyone always turn to the statistics of 50% of marriages ending in divorce whenever they're trying to defend not getting married. Yes, it's true, but it's also true that 50% of marriages last "until death do us part". Instead of looking at the marriages that fail and decide to be like that, why not look at them to determine what went wrong and decide not to do it. Look to the marriages that last for advice.

Why does everyone always turn to the statistics of 50% of marriages ending in divorce whenever they're trying to defend not getting married. Yes, it's true, but it's also true that 50% of marriages last "until death do us part". Instead of looking at the marriages that fail and decide to be like that, why not look at them to determine what went wrong and decide not to do it. Look to the marriages that last for advice.


To be honest, Im not trying to defend not getting married. I'm just trying to figure out if/why it would be beneficial for me and my family. I think that I take marriage way more seriously than those who just jump and do it because it's "what they are supposed to do". I am not a sheep. I try to draw conclusions about things based on whether or not it works for me. I'm saying my family is functional without marriage, so what reasons other than religion or tradition should I get married? I actually feel very fortunate to have this choice as not every one dose.

Here's a male perspective.

I will not get married in the US unless I meet a woman who makes substantially more money than I do. The divorce statistics are alarming and 3/4s of the time its the women who file for divorce first. Now, one can argue that the men did something for the women to pull the trigger but the bottom line or as Machiavelli would say the "effective truth" is that statistically speaking she's the one who is taking the affirmative step towards divorce a majority of the time.

Its the higher income earner who gets screwed in a divorce which has usually been the man by virtue of him focusing solely on his career and women generally marrying up to someone more successful. The saying no good deed goes unpunished is especially true in marriage. The more you do for you wife, the better you try to make marital life from a financial standpoint the more you are liable. For example, alimony is financial support given to a spouse who cannot be financially self sufficient. This means that if you decide to become the sole income earner so that your wife can stay home and raise a family thereby causing her to leave the workforce, she can later claim that after being out of work for a lengthy period of time she needs alimony until she can become financially self sufficient again. This can mean anything from a few years to paying for any higher education she chooses to receive. Worse yet, if you marry a stay at home wife who never worked you can be liable for long term alimony and in some states depending on the length of the marriage it can be lifetime alimony. Since alimony terminates on the death of the paying spouse or remarriage by the receiving spouse, a common litigation tactic by divorce attorneys is to petition the court to force the alimony paying spouse to take out a life insurance policy on himself naming the alimony receiving spouse as sole beneficiary so that payments can continue even after you are dead! This doesn't even take into account separate payments for child support and division of property and other assets based on the mother being granted custody of the children b/c she's considered the primary care giver by the courts 90% of the time. As a man the only way to gain custody is to prove through evidence that the mother is a drug addict or engages in behavior that endangers the welfare of the child/children.

The above are what happens to the higher income earner which has traditionally been the man. However, the tide is turning and more women are out earning men as they become the higher income earners in marriages. This is good news for guys. If I do get married it will be to a woman who makes a lot more money than I do so that she can assume the liabilities of the higher income earner. I'll also refuse to sign a prenup claiming that she doesn't trust me, marriage is about love, blah blah blah. In today's world Machiavelli's axioms are needed more than ever.



Well, the way it's looking I will definitely be the one making more money when I'm fully done my training process. Also, I appreciate you perspective. That information should really be taken into consideration before getting married.

Why does everyone always turn to the statistics of 50% of marriages ending in divorce whenever they're trying to defend not getting married. Yes, it's true, but it's also true that 50% of marriages last "until death do us part". Instead of looking at the marriages that fail and decide to be like that, why not look at them to determine what went wrong and decide not to do it. Look to the marriages that last for advice.

Also, I wonder how many of those people are staying out of pure obligation and are miserable. Let's see what happens as people break free old traditions. I know that sounds cynical, but so many people live their lives in fear of breaking religious rules it makes you wonder how many would live differently if they felt they wouldn't be committing blasphemy by leaving their spouses or not getting married to begin with.

Also, I wonder how many of those people are staying out of pure obligation and are miserable. Let's see what happens as people break free old traditions. I know that sounds cynical, but so many people live their lives in fear of breaking religious rules it makes you wonder how many would live differently if they felt they wouldn't be committing blasphemy by leaving their spouses or not getting married to begin with.

It sounds like you've had bad experiences with marriage-either personal or as a witness to someone close. If so, I'm truly sorry for that. I'm in the camp that believes in marriage TO THE RIGHT PERSON. I know that there are people that stay in horrible marriages out of obligation which, for the record, I think is wrong. I don't think that you should stay out of obligation to anyone. Not your children, not God, not anybody. With that being said, though, I do think that there is value in marriage and that it works when both people go into it willing to do the work necessary to make it work and realize that there are going to be days when you can't stand the other person, but in the long run you know that you wouldn't want to spend your life with anyone else. I kind of compare it to my experience in med school. There are days when I hate my life, but I realize that even at my lowest point, I wouldn't want to be doing anything else with my life right now.

Marriage isn't something you should do because you're almost 30 and your family/friends are giving you crap about being an old maid or because you got somebody pregnant. You should do it because you've met the person you want to spend your life with. If it's not for you, it's not for you, but that decision shouldn't be based on what other people think or do.

Ok!!!!! Maybe the problems in the world have more to do with the fact that there are adults who call children BASTARDS when they get drunk!! If marriage automatically instilled the necessary tools for parenting, along with some common sense, I'd say yessss!!!! I'm all for it!! My theory is the world is a mess partially, because we treat our children, who eventually grow up and run it, LIKE SH%#!!! Not because people aren't getting married.

Let me give you an analogy: kids making fun of people with down syndromes as "lil retards", yes that is cruel but it doesnt change the flipping fact the kids with down syndrome ARE retarded. Its a disability. And so is being a bastard child. Hopefully they will grow up to find love, maybe with another bastard and create a sort of bastard utopia, hell if I know...

Some bastard children of course do overcome their disability and accomplish, of course a sh!t-ton of bastard children also grow up to be strippers, dealers and what not.

People that post here looking for a validation of their own personal philosophy need to step back and see reality.

Yes the "world" is messed up but it is no small part secondary to an American generation of bastards (both literal and figurative) with little concern for personal history or heritage. They are the standard bearers of the "ME" generation.

No, no 3 different baby daddy's... who said I had a problem?.

Who said you have a problem? ME, how about them apples??

If you didnt also perceive you had a problem you wouldnt even have thought to post this so dont play dense here!\

you know what, nevermind, you are fine!!

go down to Target, get a brass pole and a cheesy Whitesnake CD for girls, if you have a boy too get a sturdy stool and leather jacket, he can practice being the guy who takes the $$$ at the door. Its all good!

Let me give you an analogy: kids making fun of people with down syndromes as "lil retards", yes that is cruel but it doesnt change the flipping fact the kids with down syndrome ARE retarded. Its a disability. And so is being a bastard child. Hopefully they will grow up to find love, maybe with another bastard and create a sort of bastard utopia, hell if I know...

Some bastard children of course do overcome their disability and accomplish, of course a sh!t-ton of bastard children also grow up to be strippers, dealers and what not.

People that post here looking for a validation of their own personal philosophy need to step back and see reality.

Yes the "world" is messed up but it is no small part secondary to an American generation of bastards (both literal and figurative) with little concern for personal history or heritage. They are the standard bearers of the "ME" generation.




Well, It's a good thing that all the people who are products of married homes are perfect and never get into any trouble. You have no idea where I have been my life and what i've had to overcome to even be typing this right now, but I'm sure someone like you wouldn't care anyway. Your a physician? Do you work in situations where you have to actually relate to people? In case you don't realize, any kid is fair game for other kids to make fun of them. I teach my kids that it's rude and they shouldn't do that. Also don't even get me started on the history and heritage part. I didn't really have a mom, so I have a pretty open and self taught view of the world.

Who said you have a problem? ME, how about them apples??

If you didnt also perceive you had a problem you wouldnt even have thought to post this so dont play dense here!\

you know what, nevermind, you are fine!!

go down to Target, get a brass pole and a cheesy Whitesnake CD for girls, if you have a boy too get a sturdy stool and leather jacket, he can practice being the guy who takes the $$$ at the door. Its all good!

You can paint me in whatever picture you'd like, but you need to keep my children out of it. My oldest has been on the honor role for as long as he has had the ability to have, and plays the violin. My five year old hasn'teven started kg yet and can already do multiplication, double digit addition, and reads. I did have many many problems in my life that I'm still overcoming to this day, but I'm working every day to make sure that my kids don't have the kind that I did. I tell my oldest some of the more tame situations about my life and he cannot even fathom what I've gone through. My problem is this: Since I grew up with no tradition, and am not religious, I can't get myself psyched to do what so many others seem to find so much joy in, so I feel like I'm trying to figure out if it's possible for me to ever want to.

It sounds like you've had bad experiences with marriage-either personal or as a witness to someone close. If so, I'm truly sorry for that. I'm in the camp that believes in marriage TO THE RIGHT PERSON. I know that there are people that stay in horrible marriages out of obligation which, for the record, I think is wrong. I don't think that you should stay out of obligation to anyone. Not your children, not God, not anybody. With that being said, though, I do think that there is value in marriage and that it works when both people go into it willing to do the work necessary to make it work and realize that there are going to be days when you can't stand the other person, but in the long run you know that you wouldn't want to spend your life with anyone else. I kind of compare it to my experience in med school. There are days when I hate my life, but I realize that even at my lowest point, I wouldn't want to be doing anything else with my life right now.

Marriage isn't something you should do because you're almost 30 and your family/friends are giving you crap about being an old maid or because you got somebody pregnant. You should do it because you've met the person you want to spend your life with. If it's not for you, it's not for you, but that decision shouldn't be based on what other people think or do.



Let's just put it this way. A weaker person in my shoes might not even be sitting here. My siblings are not so well. I came from very little, and now my neighbors have $600,000.00 houses. I don't but you see what I'm saying. Mine was 235. To add perspective. I had my first apt when I was 18 because I couldn't take my mom's abuse anymore, and I paid $65.00 a month to live there and completed my senior year in high school living on my own. I do appreciate your empathy. Take care.

Let me give you an analogy: kids making fun of people with down syndromes as "lil retards", yes that is cruel but it doesnt change the flipping fact the kids with down syndrome ARE retarded. Its a disability. And so is being a bastard child. Hopefully they will grow up to find love, maybe with another bastard and create a sort of bastard utopia, hell if I know...

Some bastard children of course do overcome their disability and accomplish, of course a sh!t-ton of bastard children also grow up to be strippers, dealers and what not.

People that post here looking for a validation of their own personal philosophy need to step back and see reality.

Yes the "world" is messed up but it is no small part secondary to an American generation of bastards (both literal and figurative) with little concern for personal history or heritage. They are the standard bearers of the "ME" generation.




Btw, exactly who was the world so great for when everyone did what they were told and behaved like robots with no brains to think for themselves?

Mmm.. Personally, I agree with LADoc00. People hate the truth.

Marriages might not always produce great children all the time just like healthy trees dont make healthy fruits all the time. But there is no denial that if your parents are married then you are less likely to be promiscuous and more likely to have a higher IQ and be successful.

Clearly marriage is not the ultimate factor (Thank God too can you imagine if you are 100% born to be at those disadvantages?) but it's clearly a significant factor as most studies indicate. So you owe it to your child to give them a better chance in life. Hence LADoc00's comment about "Generation ME" meaning all you care about is your advantages of not getting married but not about the child's disadvantages. Which is why I said I agree with LADoc00.

Mmm.. Personally, I agree with LADoc00. People hate the truth.

Marriages might not always produce great children all the time just like healthy trees dont make healthy fruits all the time. But there is no denial that if your parents are married then you are less likely to be promiscuous and more likely to have a higher IQ and be successful.

Clearly marriage is not the ultimate factor (Thank God too can you imagine if you are 100% born to be at those disadvantages?) but it's clearly a significant factor as most studies indicate. So you owe it to your child to give them a better chance in life Hence LADoc00's comment about "Generation ME" meaning all you care about is your advantages of not getting married but not about the child's disadvantages. Which is why I said I agree with LADoc00.


What is it that makes them turn out better? The actual marriage or having two loving parents who are committed to them, because trust me my children are my priority, and If I felt as though standing in front of a minister and signing a piece of paper raised them, then I would certainly do that. I have always been there for them and am committed to making them complete people. I have one in elementary school now, and we have no problems with it. Do you think that it will be a big deal in High school? I live in NJ by the way, and I understand that the answer to the question may be different depending on geography.

The OP represents a common problem amongst women now a days. Why get married?

Short term.... no reason.

Long term.... Kids require a father in their life present at home otherwise they are more likely to be promiscuous, less intelligent/lower academic achievement and end up with a broken family themselves. This is demonstrated by multiple studies on pubmed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1946827?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA (http://Academic performance.) Social deviation. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1157613?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

There are more but it's too much for me to list and it makes sense too. Boys look for their dad as an example of a guy to follow and girls will look for their dad as an example of whom she needs to look for to date. You can think of it this way, "Was your relationship with your dad important?"

From the woman's stand point.. there is no reason anymore to be married other than religious. However to destroy your family for a whim is pretty sad and the only victims here would be the children whom if they had a choice they would have wanted their dad and mom to be together for them.


Just noticed this. I have no concept of what it's like to have a dad. Or a mom, really... Or "normal" siblings...

Youre absolutely right, I dont care. I dont care if you were abused, from some type of stereotypical trailer park home.. I just dont care, at all.

If you are fine with how your life has turned out and you did all you could, then grats! You dont need a dozen anon internet posters to self validate. If you asking a serious ? as to whether marriage has value in modern society and hoping to sway people to your viewpoint, then you fail. Read that again: FAIL. I hope you and children succeed but I dont you will get one single person posting their lives were made easier because you are unmarried.

Seriously, talk to your live in and ask him what the deal is...the sad thing he probably will get married to the woman of his dreams and frankly has already given you the red flag that you arent it! Im sorry.


Victims, arent we all?

Youre absolutely right, I dont care. I dont care if you were abused, from some type of stereotypical trailer park home.. I just dont care, at all.

If you are fine with how your life has turned out and you did all you could, then grats! You dont need a dozen anon internet posters to self validate. If you asking a serious ? as to whether marriage has value in modern society and hoping to sway people to your viewpoint, then you fail. Read that again: FAIL. I hope you and children succeed but I dont you will get one single person posting their lives were made easier because you are unmarried.

Seriously, talk to your live in and ask him what the deal is...the sad thing he probably will get married to the woman of his dreams and frankly has already given you the red flag that you arent it! Im sorry.



If you read my post from earlier you would see that I said I'm not trying to sway others I'm truly trying to see if it's something that could be for me one day. I'm not sure why your seeing otherwise, sometimes it's hard to make your point clear on a message board. I'm also not interested in being anyone's dream woman, I just want to make my kids lives better than mine was. That's the reason I'm still here. Did it ever dawn on you that I'm the on who is holding out?

If you read my post from earlier you would see that I said I'm not trying to sway others I'm truly trying to see if it's something that could be for me one day. I'm not sure why your seeing otherwise, sometimes it's hard to make your point clear on a message board. I'm also not interested in being anyone's dream woman, I just want to make my kids lives better than mine was. That's the reason I'm still here. Did it ever dawn on you that I'm the on who is holding out?

when then Im sorry you have repeatedly procreated with a man who by your standards is unworthy of being a life long mate....this is sounding like a total trainwreck.

What your grand plan? To trade up on this guy after you popped out 3 rugrats with him and went to graduate school?? Maybe land a doc? LMAO!!!!!!!
Sheesh, he should run for the hills now.

Wow! Man, there are some truly harsh people out there!

Frankly, I don't think the act of marriage is required to have a good family, though I'll probably choose it for myself. As an example though, my brother had lived with his partner for years and had one child. They didn't get legally married until she was pregnant with the second and they realized they wanted his health insurance to be able to cover the family. So, while it ain't romantic, don't forget there are very real tax-/ health-/ legal benefits to being married.

As for myself, I don't care if it's legal, but I do think that standing in front of all of your friends and family and declaring your constancy to your partner is a meaningful experience. Lots of people can be together, lots of people can have kids together, and that requires some level of commitment. It just steps it up a little to officially bring someone into your family. If you don't get on with your family of course, this is less important.

And as for the free party? Yeah, that's not gonna happen for me. I expect to have to pay for my wedding entirely myself (with my partner). Not everybody has wealthy parents!

Long term.... Kids require a father in their life present at home otherwise they are more likely to be promiscuous, less intelligent/lower academic achievement and end up with a broken family themselves.


Whoo. Too bad my mom divorced my two-timing Dad and worked hard to raise her kids in a good school district. Just think how much better I could have done than being sr. class pres at Caltech and going to med school. Poor me.

From the woman's stand point.. there is no reason anymore to be married other than religious. However to destroy your family for a whim is pretty sad and the only victims here would be the children whom if they had a choice they would have wanted their dad and mom to be together for them.

The kids HAVE two loving parents. They all live together. How is this a bad thing? All the OP is talking about is the little piece of paper that says "marriage license". Does it really matter?

What your grand plan? To trade up on this guy after you popped out 3 rugrats with him and went to graduate school?? Maybe land a doc? LMAO!!!!!!!
Sheesh, he should run for the hills now.

Wow, absolutely everything you have said has been so uncalled for.

I think her plan is love and honor and NOT marry her partner for ever and ever. Kinda like the end of Four Weddings and a Funeral.

So, you're really saying that the wedding vow is the only thing keeping people from sleeping around/ breaking it off? For some, maybe, but I gotta hope successful relationships are based on more than legal obligation. Sheesh!

Whoo. Too bad my mom divorced my two-timing Dad and worked hard to raise her kids in a good school district. Just think how much better I could have done than being sr. class pres at Caltech and going to med school. Poor me.



The kids HAVE two loving parents. They all live together. How is this a bad thing? All the OP is talking about is the little piece of paper that says "marriage license". Does it really matter?

Missing the point, it's not a piece of paper. You set up an example for your children. The ideas they are raised upon go down generations after you pass away. You show that you and your partner are committed to each other and it shows to your kids that they need to be committed... not just living together.

Currently, in theory (just as the OP expressed they are "holding out") if you are not married... you can just walk out that door and never look back... what kind of commitment example are you providing for your children? Will they be as committed to their partners? In sickness/health, ups and downs of life?

when then Im sorry you have repeatedly procreated with a man who by your standards is unworthy of being a life long mate....this is sounding like a total trainwreck.

What your grand plan? To trade up on this guy after you popped out 3 rugrats with him and went to graduate school?? Maybe land a doc? LMAO!!!!!!!
Sheesh, he should run for the hills now.

So does it make you happy with yourself, being a cyber bully and all? You have repeatedly twisted my words and offered the most rediculous so called answers or solutions to situations I haven't even spoken of. Typical... I don't like to perpetuate negativity in my life, so, I appreciate you participating in the thread, but I won't respond to you anymore.

Missing the point, it's not a piece of paper. You set up an example for your children. The ideas they are raised upon go down generations after you pass away. You show that you and your partner are committed to each other and it shows to your kids that they need to be committed... not just living together.

Currently, in theory (just as the OP expressed they are "holding out") if you are not married... you can just walk out that door and never look back... what kind of commitment example are you providing for your children? Will they be as committed to their partners? In sickness/health, ups and downs of life?

I'm not sure why no one believes that people can be committed without being married. Maybe we didn't stand in front of our family and say it, but we say it to ourselves in our hearts. It's been 7 years and we're stronger than ever. What is so bad about that?

Missing the point, it's not a piece of paper. You set up an example for your children. The ideas they are raised upon go down generations after you pass away. You show that you and your partner are committed to each other and it shows to your kids that they need to be committed... not just living together.

Currently, in theory (just as the OP expressed they are "holding out") if you are not married... you can just walk out that door and never look back... what kind of commitment example are you providing for your children? Will they be as committed to their partners? In sickness/health, ups and downs of life?

This, I can understand. The family legacy and all. You all should understand that a lot of people don't have this passed down to them. I was from a, not even broken, a shattered family. There are a lot of concepts that were not passed down to me. Just about everything positive I've learned in my life has been self taught. My mom only taught me how not to be. So you see there are concepts that I'm still learning. That is why, and I think people are having a hard time accepting this, I'm sincerely trying to figure out this whole marriage deal. I'm a free thinker and I don't just do things because everyone else does it. Hence, I'm sincerely trying to figure out why it would be good for my family.

Whoo. Too bad my mom divorced my two-timing Dad and worked hard to raise her kids in a good school district. Just think how much better I could have done than being sr. class pres at Caltech and going to med school. Poor me.



The kids HAVE two loving parents. They all live together. How is this a bad thing? All the OP is talking about is the little piece of paper that says "marriage license". Does it really matter?


Thank you for your reply. Finally, it seems someone understands what I'm trying to say!!!

Missing the point, it's not a piece of paper. You set up an example for your children. The ideas they are raised upon go down generations after you pass away. You show that you and your partner are committed to each other and it shows to your kids that they need to be committed... not just living together.

Currently, in theory (just as the OP expressed they are "holding out") if you are not married... you can just walk out that door and never look back... what kind of commitment example are you providing for your children? Will they be as committed to their partners? In sickness/health, ups and downs of life?

I'm not sure why no one believes that people can be committed without being married. Maybe we didn't stand in front of our family and say it, but we say it to ourselves in our hearts. It's been 7 years and we're stronger than ever. What is so bad about that?

Let me ask you this. If you're fully committed to each other, stronger than ever, blah, blah, blah, then why NOT get married.

[QUOTE=shmrshines;6517303]

Let me ask you this. If you're fully committed to each other, stronger than ever, blah, blah, blah, then why NOT get married.

Exactly, cause they are not truly committed and want the option to be able to walk away even if they currently dont have plans to use it. To me and everyone else who sits and thinks about (your kids as they grow up) it states "Always keep your options open just incase."

[QUOTE=shmrshines;6517303]

Let me ask you this. If you're fully committed to each other, stronger than ever, blah, blah, blah, then why NOT get married.

Thats also what I'm wondering. YOu seem opposed to getting married because there is no "good reason" to do so, yet your relationship is stable and strong, and you plan on staying together (forever) for your kids. So.... I guess if thats REALLY the case, then my reasons to get married are still stability for your kids (I think the fact that you are married AND in a stable relationship with your spouse gives more stability than just being in a healthy relationship) and the financial benefits of being married that are given by the government. Also, I think being married also makes your partner feel more secure about the relationship. Perhaps you don't feel that is the case, but if your the one holding out and your partner wants to get married, what signal is that giving him?

I guess to me, the only reason to NOT get married in this situation is because you think theres a good chance the marriage won't work and you'll split up.

[quote=dr1day;6518137]

Exactly, cause they are not truly committed and want the option to be able to walk away even if they currently dont have plans to use it. To me and everyone else who sits and thinks about (your kids as they grow up) it states "Always keep your options open just incase."


I can't say that this is totally left field. I definitely have committment issues due to my upbringing. Also, my current boyfriend has given me some reasons not to trust that he'll be a good husband. I mean I don't even have enough time to explain all the reasons I have issues. I'm not really opposed to marriage, it's just when I think about doing it, I don't get excited or even want to, so I should just do it even though I have no desire to because it's the right thing to do according to some?

[quote=dr1day;6518137]

Thats also what I'm wondering. YOu seem opposed to getting married because there is no "good reason" to do so, yet your relationship is stable and strong, and you plan on staying together (forever) for your kids. So.... I guess if thats REALLY the case, then my reasons to get married are still stability for your kids (I think the fact that you are married AND in a stable relationship with your spouse gives more stability than just being in a healthy relationship) and the financial benefits of being married that are given by the government. Also, I think being married also makes your partner feel more secure about the relationship. Perhaps you don't feel that is the case, but if your the one holding out and your partner wants to get married, what signal is that giving him?

I guess to me, the only reason to NOT get married in this situation is because you think theres a good chance the marriage won't work and you'll split up.


It took a long time for my boyfriend to grow into a person who would be husband material, so i think that if we get married he'll become complacent and turn into who he was in the past. btw, our first child together was not planned. For those who have the question then why'd you have kids then? Hey, he was meant to be here... So then in my eyes we were stuck together. So I probably just answered my question.

It took a long time for my boyfriend to grow into a person who would be husband material, so i think that if we get married he'll become complacent and turn into who he was in the past. btw, our first child together was not planned. For those who have the question then why'd you have kids then? Hey, he was meant to be here...

Ah the truth comes out....so he drinks a 12 pack with his buddies while playing guitar hero on the Wii eh? Meanwhile you are left to deal with the lil army of crying rugrats on your own.

I get it now....

But please I beg you, once you accomplish your medical school dreams and kick this guy to the curb as he slips back to the abyss of complacency...do NOT get all "tarted out" and try to hook one of my professional colleagues, we have a enough problems in the medical profession with insurance companies, big government and multinational corporations trying to screw us....

It took a long time for my boyfriend to grow into a person who would be husband material, so i think that if we get married he'll become complacent and turn into who he was in the past. btw, our first child together was not planned. For those who have the question then why'd you have kids then? Hey, he was meant to be here... So then in my eyes we were stuck together. So I probably just answered my question.

So you should probably not get married. If your not certain your boyfriend is going to make a good husband/father, then you should probably not get married. I don't think getting married has ever improved a bad relationship.

Haha, after all of this "pro marriage" things I've been saying, I'm pretty sure that if I had known what my husband was going to be like after we got married, I wouldn't have married him. :rolleyes: (for that matter, he may not have married me if he had known what I'd be like...)

Haha, after all of this "pro marriage" things I've been saying, I'm pretty sure that if I had known what my husband was going to be like after we got married, I wouldn't have married him. :rolleyes: (for that matter, he may not have married me if he had known what I'd be like...)

That's exactly why forming a legal relationship based on an emotional response is so dangerous.

Machiavelli postulated whether its better to be feared or loved and concluded, after a reasoned discourse, that its better to be feared. Love is an environment where people become complacent and take each other for granted whether they intend to or not. Love in and of itself is a very good thing, but when coupled with a legal contract becomes volatile b/c of the liabilities imposed by such a relationship. IMO I'd rather have my significant other live in fear of losing me than love to be in my company. The former can be accomplished easily w/o any legal commitment. This way the chance of her slipping into a state of complacency or taking me for granted b/c she "has" me are minimized. Its also for my benefit b/c there are no legal liabilities attached to the relationship. At worst, assuming we have children, I'd be liable for child support but no alimony or property liability would attach (assuming we have no joint accounts or never held property as joint tenants which I would never do anyway).

For centuries, marriage has simply been a means to maintain property rights through the succession of legitimate children and as a vehicle to advance within one's social class or to a higher social class. Also by refusing access to education and the workforce to women, society forced women into marriage as a means for stability outside their parents' homes.

These factors have been eliminated although one can still argue that social classes still exist, marriage is not the sole entrance into a social class today. But most importantly, women are not dependent on marriage anymore. For the first time in history they can achieve independent wealth.

So marriage becomes something for appearance sake (whether by fear of social stigma or loyalty to tradition/religion) or for love. Neither of these justifies the legal implications of marriage for the higher income earner should it fail, which at an average of 50% is a significant percentage.

As the Roman Emperor Augustus would say "Never enter a campaign where more is lost by defeat than gained by victory." Love can be achieved w/o marriage so it makes little sense for me to assume legal liability as the higher income earner. Like I mentioned earlier, I would only marry a woman who made substantially more money than I did w/o a prenup of course b/c that legal relationship makes sense.

That's exactly why forming a legal relationship based on an emotional response is so dangerous.

Machiavelli postulated whether its better to be feared or loved and concluded, after a reasoned discourse, that its better to be feared. Love is an environment where people become complacent and take each other for granted whether they intend to or not. Love in and of itself is a very good thing, but when coupled with a legal contract becomes volatile b/c of the liabilities imposed by such a relationship. IMO I'd rather have my significant other live in fear of losing me than love to be in my company. The former can be accomplished easily w/o any legal commitment. This way the chance of her slipping into a state of complacency or taking me for granted b/c she "has" me are minimized. Its also for my benefit b/c there are no legal liabilities attached to the relationship. At worst, assuming we have children, I'd be liable for child support but no alimony or property liability would attach (assuming we have no joint accounts or never held property as joint tenants which I would never do anyway).

For centuries, marriage has simply been a means to maintain property rights through the succession of legitimate children and as a vehicle to advance within one's social class or to a higher social class. Also by refusing access to education and the workforce to women, society forced women into marriage as a means for stability outside their parents' homes.

These factors have been eliminated although one can still argue that social classes still exist, marriage is not the sole entrance into a social class today. But most importantly, women are not dependent on marriage anymore. For the first time in history they can achieve independent wealth.

So marriage becomes something for appearance sake (whether by fear of social stigma or loyalty to tradition/religion) or for love. Neither of these justifies the legal implications of marriage for the higher income earner should it fail, which at an average of 50% is a significant percentage.

As the Roman Emperor Augustus would say "Never enter a campaign where more is lost by defeat than gained by victory." Love can be achieved w/o marriage so it makes little sense for me to assume legal liability as the higher income earner. Like I mentioned earlier, I would only marry a woman who made substantially more money than I did w/o a prenup of course b/c that legal relationship makes sense.


See, i agree with a lot of this.

Ah the truth comes out....so he drinks a 12 pack with his buddies while playing guitar hero on the Wii eh? Meanwhile you are left to deal with the lil army of crying rugrats on your own.

I get it now....

But please I beg you, once you accomplish your medical school dreams and kick this guy to the curb as he slips back to the abyss of complacency...do NOT get all "tarted out" and try to hook one of my professional colleagues, we have a enough problems in the medical profession with insurance companies, big government and multinational corporations trying to screw us....


Thanks, but i doubt I'd have to try to hook up with anyone :cool: I'm a great person, and an awesome catch, and anyone would be lucky to ge me. Although, I don't think I'll ever be available again. Who knows?

So you should probably not get married. If your not certain your boyfriend is going to make a good husband/father, then you should probably not get married. I don't think getting married has ever improved a bad relationship.

Haha, after all of this "pro marriage" things I've been saying, I'm pretty sure that if I had known what my husband was going to be like after we got married, I wouldn't have married him. :rolleyes: (for that matter, he may not have married me if he had known what I'd be like...)


Thanks for the reply. So far, I'm just going to wait things out and see how it goes. My babies mean everything to me, and I'm going to do my best to keep their family together marriage or not.

If I do get married it will be to a woman who makes a lot more money than I do so that she can assume the liabilities of the higher income earner. I'll also refuse to sign a prenup claiming that she doesn't trust me, marriage is about love, blah blah blah. In today's world Machiavelli's axioms are needed more than ever.

See, I just don't see how you will ever get married then, assuming that your wife has similar values to you. (Who knows, maybe she'll actually be altruistic!) If you think it illogical to be the higher earner in a marriage because of the inherent liability, then she, by the same logic, should never marry anyone who earns less than she does. So you will both have to earn precisely the same amount, dollar for dollar, which I would say is nigh on impossible.

You also seem to believe you are invincible, that the only possible outcome of a marriage if you are the breadwinner is you getting taken advantage of. This assumes (a) you never get sick, (b) you never lose your job, etc etc. Marriages frequently have the man or the woman alternating breadwinner roles depending on who has a good offer, who takes care of the kids for a while, whose startup fails, or who gets laid-off.

But who knows, maybe you will find that perfect woman, the woman who earns significantly more than you do. You'll have all the pleasure of a great big house, you'll never see her because she'll be a workaholic, and you'll have traded in emotional and intellectual comraderie for a bottomless checkbook. Mazeltov!

See, I just don't see how you will ever get married then, assuming that your wife has similar values to you. (Who knows, maybe she'll actually be altruistic!) If you think it illogical to be the higher earner in a marriage because of the inherent liability, then she, by the same logic, should never marry anyone who earns less than she does. So you will both have to earn precisely the same amount, dollar for dollar, which I would say is nigh on impossible.

The OP has it figured out. But there are women who out earn their male counterparts and still believe in the romanticism behind marriage. The problem is finding these women. But since 60% of all undergrads are now women and the wage gape is closing I expect women to surpass men in terms of income earned very soon essentially becoming the higher income earners who inherently take on greater liability in marriage. I also expect as a consequence of this that divorce rates will drop since less women will file for divorce once financial liability shifts to them, currently 3/4s of divorces are initiated by women.

You are right however that the chances of me marrying are slim due to the parameters that I find acceptable. I have no problem with this since my projected career and income will afford me the lifestyle I want to lead and following my guidelines will only lead to more wealth. Its only if I marry down to someone with less income and accomplishments do I risk anything from a financial standpoint. Hence my complete aversion to this scenario.

You also seem to believe you are invincible, that the only possible outcome of a marriage if you are the breadwinner is you getting taken advantage of. This assumes (a) you never get sick, (b) you never lose your job, etc etc. Marriages frequently have the man or the woman alternating breadwinner roles depending on who has a good offer, who takes care of the kids for a while, whose startup fails, or who gets laid-off.Good financial planning will minimize this issue, but you have a point. However this presupposes that my spouse will stick around during the hard times. With women filing divorce 3/4s of the time, its not a risk I'm willing to take. I'd rather plan financially as much as possible in case such an event arises.

It also doesn't take into account the psyche of my spouse. There's naturally going to be resentment b/c of the extra effort required to make ends meet. A friend of mine was faced with the exact scenario and lost his job during the dotcom disaster. His wife had to take on a second job for them to get by. The resentment kept building until one day she exploded on him yelling "A real man would never make his wife work two jobs!" Then she filed for divorced weeks later.

But who knows, maybe you will find that perfect woman, the woman who earns significantly more than you do. You'll have all the pleasure of a great big house, you'll never see her because she'll be a workaholic, and you'll have traded in emotional and intellectual comraderie for a bottomless checkbook. Mazeltov!Perfect.

Obviously, marriage has lost its value in many parts of society, due to the devaluation of the number of religious people.

Many non-religious people still yearn for marriage though. Besides the rites that take place during a wedding, they'll leave religious ideas out of the marriage. Maybe they'll adopt similar values, but they won't add a religious reasoning to it.

Which makes one wonder what is the purpose of a marriage in such a situation. If you're not religious, then why do you need a religious ritual to acknowledge your commitment to eachother. Of course it can be a nice symbolic gesture but there is no actual need for it.

Psychologically, things can change as it make you believe that because you're married to someone you're commitment to that someone is stronger than the sense of commitment in a relationship where people aren't at least engaged to eachother. But that's just a figment of our imagination.

And I won't knock on people who want to celebrate their love for eachother, more power to them. But apparently such a celebration often costs a whole lot of $$$, while there needs to be a minister involved. Their choice, but I'll pass on that.

Obviously, marriage has lost its value in many parts of society, due to the devaluation of the number of religious people.

Many non-religious people still yearn for marriage though. Besides the rites that take place during a wedding, they'll leave religious ideas out of the marriage. Maybe they'll adopt similar values, but they won't add a religious reasoning to it.

Which makes one wonder what is the purpose of a marriage in such a situation. If you're not religious, then why do you need a religious ritual to acknowledge your commitment to eachother. Of course it can be a nice symbolic gesture but there is no actual need for it.

Psychologically, things can change as it make you believe that because you're married to someone you're commitment to that someone is stronger than the sense of commitment in a relationship where people aren't at least engaged to eachother. But that's just a figment of our imagination.

And I won't knock on people who want to celebrate their love for eachother, more power to them. But apparently such a celebration often costs a whole lot of $$$, while there needs to be a minister involved. Their choice, but I'll pass on that.


I hear ya..

As half of a non-religious married couple, some things to keep in mind...
In addition to marriage being a signed, stated commitment to each other, it is also for the families. After marrying, I felt like I gained a whole new family. As someone not terribly close to her own family this was a nice thing. I don't think it would have been the same if I had simply dated my husband for a long time.

Also, there are certainly legal implications as far as taxes, insurance, inheritance are concerned, although many states have "common law" marriage statutes. In TX I believe that you are considered "married" under state law if you have co-habitated for 7yrs. It might be worth seeing what your local laws are.


As others have said, a marriage certificate takes away the option of walking out the door when the going gets rough. Maybe that's helpful when you are in the middle of a hard times and you might make a rash decision to leave instead of working things out. But if you are unsure of the foundation of your relationship when times are good and your head is clear.... maybe you still want the option to leave unlitigated on the table.

Yeah, I'm def. not the type of person who wants to spend so much money on a party that will last for one day.

I'm afraid I don't have much intellectual to contribute to this discussion, but I can say that this month I have been married to my husband for 3 years, and we dated for 5 years before that. Honestly, getting married was the best thing I ever did. I absolutely love the stability that comes with it, but I also love that he has the same stability. I love that when we have kids some day they will have the same last name as both myself and my husband, and that together we are a unit that has more claim to one another than even our parents do to us (we're still trying to convince his mom of this though!). We had an absolutely fabulous time dating, but I was VERY ready to become his life partner. But then again I was absolutely positive that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with my husband. If you are not sure, I really wouldn't get married. It's too hard. There are certainly financial & legal benefits, as others have said, and maybe with kids those benefits are enough. I really don't have an answer for that.

I think that people marry to make a public statement to their friends, family and society that they are going to stay together and share financial responsibility. For those with traditional beliefs in the necessity of ceremony and ritual, I can see how this is important.

I personally don't think that taking part in a ceremony will keep anyone together. Such ceremonies and their permanency are constructs of society. I believe that the only thing that truly keeps people together is their personal vows to each other - whether this was made in the "official" sense or not.

The only reason I married in the official sense was to please my family. My husband and I have been together for 13 years and the ceremony has not altered our commitment to each other. It has given us a lot of financial perks. If our kids were born out of "wedlock", I would teach them to be strong enough to supress the taunts of the small-minded and ignorant.

I don't know. I think that its old-fashioned and expected of people. You grow up, you go to college, have a career, get married, have kids and then grandkids and then die. This is pretty much the path that the world expects from you. God forbid you dont want to follow it. I think that you can have a perfectly fulfilling relationship without marriage. I personally don't need a piece of paper or ring to remind myself or prove to myself that I do want to spend the rest of my life with my boyfriend. Although rings are very nice and shiny.... If you can spend 50 years with someone, whether you are officially married or not, should be about love and not what anyone else expects or thinks of you.

when then Im sorry you have repeatedly procreated with a man who by your standards is unworthy of being a life long mate....this is sounding like a total trainwreck.

What your grand plan? To trade up on this guy after you popped out 3 rugrats with him and went to graduate school?? Maybe land a doc? LMAO!!!!!!!
Sheesh, he should run for the hills now.

Agreed. Many women have taken this path before.. which is why I agree with Mythos219

Here's a male perspective.

I will not get married in the US unless I meet a woman who makes substantially more money than I do. The divorce statistics are alarming and 3/4s of the time its the women who file for divorce first. Now, one can argue that the men did something for the women to pull the trigger but the bottom line or as Machiavelli would say the "effective truth" is that statistically speaking she's the one who is taking the affirmative step towards divorce a majority of the time.

Its the higher income earner who gets screwed in a divorce which has usually been the man by virtue of him focusing solely on his career and women generally marrying up to someone more successful. The saying no good deed goes unpunished is especially true in marriage. The more you do for you wife, the better you try to make marital life from a financial standpoint the more you are liable. For example, alimony is financial support given to a spouse who cannot be financially self sufficient. This means that if you decide to become the sole income earner so that your wife can stay home and raise a family thereby causing her to leave the workforce, she can later claim that after being out of work for a lengthy period of time she needs alimony until she can become financially self sufficient again. This can mean anything from a few years to paying for any higher education she chooses to receive. Worse yet, if you marry a stay at home wife who never worked you can be liable for long term alimony and in some states depending on the length of the marriage it can be lifetime alimony. Since alimony terminates on the death of the paying spouse or remarriage by the receiving spouse, a common litigation tactic by divorce attorneys is to petition the court to force the alimony paying spouse to take out a life insurance policy on himself naming the alimony receiving spouse as sole beneficiary so that payments can continue even after you are dead! This doesn't even take into account separate payments for child support and division of property and other assets based on the mother being granted custody of the children b/c she's considered the primary care giver by the courts 90% of the time. As a man the only way to gain custody is to prove through evidence that the mother is a drug addict or engages in behavior that endangers the welfare of the child/children.

The above are what happens to the higher income earner which has traditionally been the man. However, the tide is turning and more women are out earning men as they become the higher income earners in marriages. This is good news for guys. If I do get married it will be to a woman who makes a lot more money than I do so that she can assume the liabilities of the higher income earner. I'll also refuse to sign a prenup claiming that she doesn't trust me, marriage is about love, blah blah blah. In today's world Machiavelli's axioms are needed more than ever.

Great post!

interesting links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_strike

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathers%27_rights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_rights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternity_fraud

Ah the truth comes out....so he drinks a 12 pack with his buddies while playing guitar hero on the Wii eh? Meanwhile you are left to deal with the lil army of crying rugrats on your own.

I get it now....

But please I beg you, once you accomplish your medical school dreams and kick this guy to the curb as he slips back to the abyss of complacency...do NOT get all "tarted out" and try to hook one of my professional colleagues, we have a enough problems in the medical profession with insurance companies, big government and multinational corporations trying to screw us....

Hey LADoc00, maybe we should at least attempt to let this guy know what he's in for so he can at least prepare himself. You know.. hire a good attorney.. I mean they're defacto.. he has fathered (presumably) a few offspring with her.. and she's going to be a successful doctor. He should at least be eligible for some serious lifelong palimony here. no? :thumbup:

I don't know. I think that its old-fashioned and expected of people. You grow up, you go to college, have a career, get married, have kids and then grandkids and then die. This is pretty much the path that the world expects from you. God forbid you dont want to follow it. I think that you can have a perfectly fulfilling relationship without marriage. I personally don't need a piece of paper or ring to remind myself or prove to myself that I do want to spend the rest of my life with my boyfriend. Although rings are very nice and shiny....

lol


If you can spend 50 years with someone, whether you are officially married or not, should be about love and not what anyone else expects or thinks of you.


I agree

Hey LADoc00, maybe we should at least attempt to let this guy know what he's in for so he can at least prepare himself. You know.. hire a good attorney.. I mean they're defacto.. he has fathered (presumably) a few offspring with her.. and she's going to be a successful doctor. He should at least be eligible for some serious lifelong palimony here. no? :thumbup:


Haha... your assuming he's a saint, and I'm the horrible woman out to do him wrong. I've seen episodes of law and order about men who think like this. lol...

Presumably? Do you think we need an episode of Maury? :scared: This is not the case. hahaha...I'm just not that kind of girl

Agreed. Many women have taken this path before.. which is why I agree with Mythos219

I did not know that. But listen, I've always been a woman who has done for myself. If not then I would have just about nothing. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Hey, I'm the person who said I wouldn't want to win the lottery for millions because it would take away from my own accomplishments... My my how we prejudge...

Haha... your assuming he's a saint, and I'm the horrible woman out to do him wrong. I've seen episodes of law and order about men who think like this. lol...

Presumably? Do you think we need an episode of Maury? :scared: This is not the case. hahaha...I'm just not that kind of girl

Doesn't matter really... You have both had children together. You are "defacto", so if you split up.. he is probably entitled to half your assets and alimony and child support. :thumbup:

Doesn't matter really... You have both had children together. You are "defacto", so if you split up.. he is probably entitled to half your assets and alimony and child support. :thumbup:

Do you mean if we're married, or just because we have kids together?

Do you mean if we're married, or just because we have kids together?

Just because you live together and have children together. Hence the term "defacto".

Why get married?

So the kids do not get F'ed up in the head. PERIOD.

If you do not plan on gaving kids, then do whatever the hell you want...

Frankly, if I am going out with a girlfriend who tells me she does not plan on ever getting married....I will break-up with her in a NY-minute.

Why get married?

So the kids do not get F'ed up in the head. PERIOD.

If you do not plan on gaving kids, then do whatever the hell you want...

Frankly, if I am going out with a girlfriend who tells me she does not plan on ever getting married....I will break-up with her in a NY-minute.

It's small minded views that make the world what it is. It's not really the marriage that makes kids secure it's the stability, which we have in our household in much more abundance than many I've seen.

so to update, I did wind up getting married, and so far feel great about my decision!! thanks to all who contributed and gave me some points to consider. :love: I actually do feel more stable and unified now, it's strange!!

so to update, I did wind up getting married, and so far feel great about my decision!! thanks to all who contributed and gave me some points to consider. :love: I actually do feel more stable and unified now, it's strange!!

Horrible mistake. It'll never last.





kidding, kidding. I love being married, best choice I ever made.

Great post!

interesting links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_strike

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathers%27_rights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_rights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternity_fraud

There is no way to escape being taken for half. De-facto or common law marriages exist in many states. This states that if you live with a woman for X amount of years you are essentially married. If you split up, you can be liable for 50% of all your property, investments, etc. as well as alimony and child support just like in a traditional marriage. Some states don't even have an X amount of years - they just go on if you act like a married couple or if the "community" thinks you are married. The worst thing about a common law marriage is that you can't sign a prenup. You are better off signing a prenup and getting a traditional marriage. Either way, prenups are known to be thrown out of court and disobeyed anyway so be prepared to be taken for at least half. The only way to escape this is to marry up or not have relationships at all :eek:.

Single mom planning to "trade up" upon completion of medical school, bad.

Bad for everyone.

Single mom planning to "trade up" upon completion of medical school, bad.

Bad for everyone.


It's interesting that you think you can predict the future... You obviously didn't read my most recent post before this one. jeez...

Horrible mistake. It'll never last.





kidding, kidding. I love being married, best choice I ever made.


haha... like I said I feel great being married. I guess it was a committment phobia all along. If you had even the slightest glimpse into my life you would understand. Even my own husband says he wouldn't like to spend a minute in my brain,lol...

There is no way to escape being taken for half. De-facto or common law marriages exist in many states. This states that if you live with a woman for X amount of years you are essentially married. If you split up, you can be liable for 50% of all your property, investments, etc. as well as alimony and child support just like in a traditional marriage. Some states don't even have an X amount of years - they just go on if you act like a married couple or if the "community" thinks you are married. The worst thing about a common law marriage is that you can't sign a prenup. You are better off signing a prenup and getting a traditional marriage. Either way, prenups are known to be thrown out of court and disobeyed anyway so be prepared to be taken for at least half. The only way to escape this is to marry up or not have relationships at all :eek:.

I'm not sure if common law holds up in NJ, but right now we are equal financially speaking. RN and construction worker. However it's obvious where we will stand after med school for me. As I have stated previously we have an awesome family and have always been dedicated to our children. Marriage has simply sealed the deal for us.

A lot of people still don't understand correlation vs. causation.

Married people are, on the whole, more stable than unmarried people. Therefore their kids, on the whole, turn out better. But there is nothing magic in that piece of paper that makes your kids' lives any different. If you are in a stable, loving, emotionally committed, unmarried relationship, your kids will have the same advantages as they would if you were in a stable, loving marriage.

The only advantage I can see in marriage is the legal considerations, and those can be arranged via contracts. You do need to put the thought into them though (wills, powers of attorney, insurance policies, separation contingency agreements, etc.).

A lot of people still don't understand correlation vs. causation.

Married people are, on the whole, more stable than unmarried people. Therefore their kids, on the whole, turn out better. But there is nothing magic in that piece of paper that makes your kids' lives any different. If you are in a stable, loving, emotionally committed, unmarried relationship, your kids will have the same advantages as they would if you were in a stable, loving marriage.

The only advantage I can see in marriage is the legal considerations, and those can be arranged via contracts. You do need to put the thought into them though (wills, powers of attorney, insurance policies, separation contingency agreements, etc.).

exactly my point

Love, comfort, knowing someone will be there

Stability. For your relationship and for your kids. Also, taking a vow to stay together (and meaning it) may cause you to stick out difficult situations longer than if there is no vow made. You might possibly be able to stick out the tough times until they improve.

I couldn't have worded things better myself.

The legal considerations are the main thing, really. I've been married for 16 years, and it makes no difference in the relationship whether you're married or not. I got married because we wanted children, and there's more legal protections if you end up splitting.

There's this mythology that getting married makes the relationship stronger, and it's a damaging falsehood because people in struggling relationships get married, thinking the ring on the finger magically fixes things, instead of dealing with their problems in some constructive way.

I agree with Pharmavixen in that there are more legal protections (for women) if you end up splitting.

However, this is not the case for men. This is one reason why more and more men are not interested in getting married these days.

Read this: "marriage strike". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_strike)

because this is the god rules on woman.then only we can share all things..

?What?

Can you rephrase that into sentence we can understand?

If you have two high-income earners marriage can end up costing a lot of extra $$ in taxes. Marriage is really only of financial benefit if someone makes a lot more money than the other one or if you both don't make much.

You can always set up legal documents separate from "marriage" and then continue to file as singles.

Do the numbers or have an accountant do them.

So marriage becomes something for appearance sake (whether by fear of social stigma or loyalty to tradition/religion) or for love. Neither of these justifies the legal implications of marriage for the higher income earner should it fail, which at an average of 50% is a significant percentage.

.

You have no understanding of what a marriage means to religious people if you think it is something done for appearance sake out of loyalty to religion. At least from a Catholic point of view.

Here's a male perspective.

I will not get married in the US unless I meet a woman who makes substantially more money than I do. The divorce statistics are alarming and 3/4s of the time its the women who file for divorce first. Now, one can argue that the men did something for the women to pull the trigger but the bottom line or as Machiavelli would say the "effective truth" is that statistically speaking she's the one who is taking the affirmative step towards divorce a majority of the time.

Its the higher income earner who gets screwed in a divorce which has usually been the man by virtue of him focusing solely on his career and women generally marrying up to someone more successful. The saying no good deed goes unpunished is especially true in marriage. The more you do for you wife, the better you try to make marital life from a financial standpoint the more you are liable. For example, alimony is financial support given to a spouse who cannot be financially self sufficient. This means that if you decide to become the sole income earner so that your wife can stay home and raise a family thereby causing her to leave the workforce, she can later claim that after being out of work for a lengthy period of time she needs alimony until she can become financially self sufficient again. This can mean anything from a few years to paying for any higher education she chooses to receive. Worse yet, if you marry a stay at home wife who never worked you can be liable for long term alimony and in some states depending on the length of the marriage it can be lifetime alimony. Since alimony terminates on the death of the paying spouse or remarriage by the receiving spouse, a common litigation tactic by divorce attorneys is to petition the court to force the alimony paying spouse to take out a life insurance policy on himself naming the alimony receiving spouse as sole beneficiary so that payments can continue even after you are dead! This doesn't even take into account separate payments for child support and division of property and other assets based on the mother being granted custody of the children b/c she's considered the primary care giver by the courts 90% of the time. As a man the only way to gain custody is to prove through evidence that the mother is a drug addict or engages in behavior that endangers the welfare of the child/children.

The above are what happens to the higher income earner which has traditionally been the man. However, the tide is turning and more women are out earning men as they become the higher income earners in marriages. This is good news for guys. If I do get married it will be to a woman who makes a lot more money than I do so that she can assume the liabilities of the higher income earner. I'll also refuse to sign a prenup claiming that she doesn't trust me, marriage is about love, blah blah blah. In today's world Machiavelli's axioms are needed more than ever.


WOW!! what woman bit you in the ASS. I am a woman and I never wish to marry a man unless a prenup is signed. And I have been dodging marriage proposals left and right. I think marriage is a trap. Sometimes I wonder whether or not if children that are raised by single parents are more emotionally independent than those that come from parents that have been together for an eternity.

Most of my friends grew up with parents that have been together since before we were born. SO they and I spend most of are teenage and adult years searching for that special someone only to get slap in the face a zillion time by heart ache. I mean sometimes I wish I was not a good girl. I wish I could exist without the need to find true love yadiyadiyada. That cinderella crap.

when then Im sorry you have repeatedly procreated with a man who by your standards is unworthy of being a life long mate....this is sounding like a total trainwreck.

What your grand plan? To trade up on this guy after you popped out 3 rugrats with him and went to graduate school?? Maybe land a doc? LMAO!!!!!!!
Sheesh, he should run for the hills now.


What is the point of this hostility? This is not even a religious debate already you are trying to convert someone. OMG!!! Chiil out. Marriage is not for everyone. The most important thing in this world are those children as long as they are loved by both parents that's all that matters. All that popping kids left and right ****. What is all this stereotype? Apparently, she knows what she is doing?

Not everyone needs a marriage license to validate their love life. Personally, I am all for getting married but only when you feel like it is the right time for you and with the right person.

No need to rush take your time onde day it will all make sense whether or not it is for you. GOOD LUCK!!!!