which one is better for IM residency in terms of solid training, reputation and fellowship placement? Mayo or UTSW?

UTSW has the reputation of being well known and having lots of basic science type attendings and good fellowship placements, but of working the house staff very hard. I think because they get creamed during residency, and they have a lot of well known attendings, residents from UTSW tend to get respect from fellowship directors at some of the big name academic institutions.

Mayo has the reputation of being cushier - you'll carry fewer patients and do less scut. They do have good fellowship placement, but it might not be quite as strong as UTSW if you want to go to some big name academic place. It seems like a lot of Mayo folks stay @Mayo, or elsewhere in the Midwest.

My impression is that Mayo is more of a clinical research place, while UTSW is more basic sciency.

Both are well known so you should do well coming from either one, if you want to do a subspecialty.

I never worked @either of these places though, so I'm just telling you the general vibe I have gotten and what others have told me.

I agree with DragonFly's response. UTSW is a far more rigorous program (probably following around 12 patients on average) versus Mayo (probably following four patients on average). You can certainly obtain a fellowship coming from either program, but those at UTSW match at the top academic programs around the country. Mayo does take a lot of their own for fellowship, but for those who do not match at Mayo, their fellowship match is less impressive. Hope that helps.

Honestly, I was shocked to see this thread, because these two places could not be more opposite.

First, I agree with what Dragonfly is saying about clinical research as Mayo and basic science at UTSW.

Mayo is definitely more cush, but, in my opinion, is one of the few programs on the cutting edge of graduate medical education. Meanwhile, UTSW is still in the dark ages in this regard. Now, you just have to decide what you want. I think most of us are seeking a golden mean. But, some people want a more relaxed experience, and some feel they need to get beat down daily to get a sense of acomplishment.

Also, in terms of location, these could not be more different. Mayo in in freezing cold Rochester. A very good place if you are married/with family. Meanwhile, UTSW is in Dallas, a pretty cool city, a drastic weather improvement, and I would imagine a good singles scene.

So, if I'm being honest with you, I find it hard to believe you don't know which side of the fence you fall on here. It's like choosing medicine vs surgery. It should be obvious what general environment you want to train and live in. Start with either GME ideology or location and build your preferences from there.

These places are both well known, and you'll get whatever fellowship you want coming from either one. Both offer very solid IM training but in very different ways. Where do you fit in? Where do you want to live? If you have any ideology of how GME should be carried out, it should align more closely with one of these over the other. Give it some thought.

this one is easy in my opinion: Mayo . . . don't pass go, don't collect $200

Mayo is the way to go

what a great question...

i think in terms of reputation in academia and fellowship placements UTSW would be slightly better than Mayo. I realized this when I interviewed last year for fellowships.

The fact that our residency is cushy is well known- which means that few fellowship directors may not like to take fellows from our program for rigorous fellowships like cards, GI etc.. But such things could be true for every program. XYZ PD does not like residents from ABC program and so on...

Location wise if you have a family with kids Rochester, with its reasonable cost of living and excellent public school system could compete with Dallas.

The residency program at Mayo is "commited to education and not service". The comment about carrying 4 patients is also true. As an intern on gen med I had carried 6 to 10 patients and now as a senior I watch my interns carry 4-6 patients on gen med. I think you do need to see a certain amount of volume as an intern and PGY-2 to mature in to a good clinician. Not sure if that is happening that well at Mayo now. Moreover, the quality of teaching or amount of it on our gen med services has not gone up with all the census caps being implemented. However, I shd also say the residency program has taken active steps to eliminate scut completely- like scheduling appointments etc. I had to do that as an intern, but my interns now have to just click on orders and talk to the CA! Eliminating scut has also meant that our residents get more opportunities to attend lectures.
I am not trying to completely bash the program. But a balanced view on things does not hurt. :)

I think the medicine residency program at Mayo is very commited to resident education (clearly would be among top 5 in the country), but is oblivious to certain very visible flaws in the way it trains its residents.

I am sure that at programs like UTSW you will get some "education", you probably would have to be more motivated to ensure that you get reading done. I think final products from both programs would be comparable. I think autonomy and procedures at UTSW are easier to come by and residents might be seeing a wider range of pathology due to Parkland being a county hospital.

Bottomline, if you are planning to go to some big "elite" fellowship for cards, GI, heme-onc UTSW might give you bigger bang for your buck..

Nothing to see here. Move it along...