I was at my doctors office this week to shadow him and a woman came in with a ankle that was in bad shape, a previous surgery by another doctor (a DO) was done very, very poorly. As we were looking at the x-rays on the computer another doc in the office saw the screen and imediatley ask who the hell did that and said the whole operation was done terribly and the way it was done is something a real doctor would never do.

I asked what he meant. He went on to tell me that he thinks that DO's should not practice any type of surgery and stay in primary care unless they trained in an MD residency program. He said the DO training is far inferior to an MD program. A thought my doc supported. Any thoughts.

I've had no direct experiences with DOs (that I'm aware of), so I'll stick with what I think is a very basic, factual response:

a number of months ago at dinner my mother asked me why I wasn't applying to any DO schools. My father replied "because he doesn't want to be a second class doctor." There are many people who hold this view. And there are others (see the pre-DO forum) who think that DOs are as every bit as good as MDs. Everybody agrees that there are good doctors and bad doctors, regardless of training. Many DOs can and do enter allopathic residencies. Looking at numbers alone DO schools are easier to get into - low avg. GPAs, lower MCAT scores.

Actually, one of my radiology prof's had a similar story. His son was away at college and had appendicitis. His son happened to be admitted into a DO training hospital and had his surgery done there. Well, his son ended up having some surgical complication (something about scar tissue obstructing his bowel) as a result of the surgery and had to have corrective surgery for that, and the surgeons who did the operation all told him that whoever did his son's first surgery was incompetent. So he did some research into this DO hospital, and found out that they only took care of some 50 cases of appendicitis per year. Ever since then, he tells people the story about his son and he tells them that they should not go to DO hospitals for surgery. Appendicitis is pretty bread and butter in surgery, if they did not have adequate training/supervision to do that surgery, I'd hate to see how they'd handle something more complicated. DO surgeons trained in MD residencies are probably just as good as their MD counterparts, but I woudn't feel comfortable being operated on by a DO who trained at a DO surgical residency.

65% of DO's do M.D. residencies. I think that your undergraduate medical degree is not important (DO, MD, MBBS) but where you do your residency is really really important.

Incompetence is not limited to DO's, lots of M.D.s F&*&* up too.
Remember the surgeon who left to go to the bank in the middle of the operation? the one who amputated the wrong foot? the one who put in the organs with the wrong blood type? (All MDs)

I definitely agree with skypilot. Don't make generalizations about the DO profession because as of lately all the mistakes have been made by MDs. Maybe we should stick to saying that the doctor just messed up and not degrade any degree programs.

toogood1

This thread makes me ashamed to be an allopathic medical student.

Hmmmm

So here are some posts degrading DOs as second class doctors and incompetent doctors based on 1-2 examples. Then there are comments that goes something like "I'm better than you are, natty natty poo poo" and I sit here thinking, "are these people really that stupid?"

If you want to make an argument that DOs are second class doctors, or are incompetent doctors, make a case for it. Don't make conclusory statements and illogical arguments. Use factual statements like "first time pass rate on USMLE I is lower for DO students than MD students" or "according to the latest NIH study, DOs make 150% more misdiagnosis, are 50% more likely to walk out of surgery, have worse handwriting than PAs, NPs and MDs, etc" - to support your claim. To make the statement that DOs are incompetent because you saw a few examples of incompetent DOs is highly suspect, and I must question your ability of higher reasoning.

Besides, I could care less how you arrive at your negative views of DOs. I guess you view the fact that DOs are at Mayo in Rochester, Hopkins, Penn, UCONN, and CHOP as just a fluke. People will always make fun of other people. They make fun of blacks, jews, asians, muslims, females, gays, red-necks, the cheese eating surrender monkeys, etc. However, to join in and go "yeah, I agree - they are second-class" shows your level of immaturity.

If you really believe that MDs are superior than DOs, then act like it. Show me your moral and intellectual superiority. Be someone that I want to look up to, to want to emulate, to see as a role model. Be someone that I want to strive to. Don't be one of the good old boys who laugh at everyone and anyone they can. Because everyone else will just view you as a bunch of jerks.

P.S. Although you may claim that DOs get no professional respect - they indeed do. Even though DO is the legal equivalent of an MD, they are also the professional equivalent - accorded the same respect from attendings and PDs everywhere. Is it because of some law or court ruling? No - it is because DOs have shown that our education and training is equivalent to our allopathic counterpart. Otherwise, we wouldn't be licensed to practice medicine and have hospital privilages.

Sincerely,

Group_theory
PCOM Class of 2007

One of the issues I find most troubling about modern American allopathic medicine is its rampant elitism. Frankly, it disgusts me. It is utterly distasteful and reeks of the snobbish arrogance of a perceived intelluctual superiority. Our castes in this society are just as rigid as any other - and they are stratified by GPAs and MCAT scores and the prestige of one's udergraduate institution. It becomes bloated and perverse and we end up with a surgeon carving the initials of his alma mater into a woman's uterus. How far we have come.

I want no part of it. I'll be quite happy practicing blue-collar medicine as a DO.

It's a cheap move to blame a mistake on someone because s/he "is a DO." When people mess up, they mess up; it's really quite simple. There are just as many MDs that mess up as DOs. More accurately, because there are simply many more MDs than DOs in this country, more mistakes are made by MDs every day than by DOs. But, who cares? The goal of any physician, regardless of title, is to treat people. Discussing the unfortunate mistakes is, perhaps, interesting at a cocktail party, but it is essentially irrelevant, or at least should be, in the professional arena.

By the way, Duke is an allopathic institution. Not to be insensitive, but using the same logic as the appendicitis story presented earlier in this thread, couldn't I say to never have transplant surgery done there? Of course I should not. What happened there recently was a horrible, unfortunate accident. However, it was just that. It was not because the hospital is an allopathic one.

I wish people would stop worrying about this type of thing.

to go a step further with the conversation i had with my docs was, They recognize DO's as doctors and said they can be just as good as a MD. What they said from there experience DO's who go into surgical specilties eg. ortho. without having trained at MD ortho residency are vastly undertrained. They mentioned that any second year resident would know not to preform the type of surgery that was preformed by the cheif of DO ortho program.

Originally posted by Ischemia
There are just as many MDs that mess up as DOs. More accurately, if you want to adjust for the relative number of each type of physician (there are many more MDs than DOs in this country), it is clear that more mistakes are made by MDs every day than by DOs.
I'd like to know where you get these numbers from, please post a link. In the mean time here are some numbers from http://www.studentdoctor.net/boards/index.asp allopathic students have a 93% pass rate USMLE step 1. While DO students have a 77% pass rate. In my mind 93% is an A and 77% is a C, I'll take the A students as my doctor over the C student anytime. From the the princeton review "Complete Book of Medical Schools," the average MD student in the U.S. mcat was 30 and DO student was 24-25. The average on the mcat is usually an 8 in each section so an average mcat test taker would score 24, personally I would want my doctor to be above average. I guess I expect too much from my doctor.

Originally posted by Adcadet
Looking at numbers alone DO schools are easier to get into - low avg. GPAs, lower MCAT scores. I think that says a LOT. If DO's want to be considered as real doctors ( most of the public considers them to be on par, or perhaps a little above, chiropractors, who I'm sure consider themselves to be "doctors"), then their schools should have standards as high as MD schools. And they should take Boards with standards as high as allopathic boards....

There is a difference between making a careless mistake (as all humans do) and being incompetent at what you do. DO programs are usually community programs that see a much smaller volume of cases compared to MD programs, and almost all of the zebra's (rare conditions) get sent to MD university's for them to figure out. Given the choice, most sensible people would prefer the surgeon who has operated on hundreds of people with his condition vs the surgeon who has operated on tens of people with his condition. It's not that unusual to see a DO student complaining on this board about their lack of clinical training and most of the good DO students prefer to train in allopathic residency programs. DO students do have lower pass rates on the USMLE's too. When I go under the knife, I'd prefer the best possible team working on me, and the best teams happen to have trained at MD universities. If Harvard starts pumping out DO degrees, then to DO I will go. It's not the letters, it's the quality of training. For those people that are so gung-ho DO, if your parents or loved onees needed neurosurgery, I wonder how comfortable you would be telling them to go to a DO training hospital out in Debunk Missouri with a DO resident neurosurgeon, a nurse-anesthesiologist, and DO attending surgeons that have never set foot in an MD institution. Those with medical backgrounds know how to look for quality. Unfortunately, not everyone gets quality.

Originally posted by Ischemia
By the way, Duke is an allopathic institution. Not to be insensitive, but using the same logic as the appendicitis story presented earlier in this thread, couldn't I say to never have transplant surgery done there? Actually, I think a lot less of Duke because of their incompetent system. But it's not because they're allopathic...it's because they had an incompetent system and then practiced questionable ethics by doing a cover-your-ass maneuver & giving Jessica a second transplant.

However, the best institutions are allopathic. You don't hear about osteopathic institutions botching up major multiple transplant operations because patients don't trust them to do such an operation on them....that's why there aren't any world-famous osteopathic hospitals.

Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD
I'd like to know where you get these numbers from, please post a link. In the mean time here are some numbers from http://www.studentdoctor.net/boards/index.asp allopathic students have a 93% pass rate USMLE. While DO students have a 77% pass rate. In my mind 90% is an A and 77% is a C, I'll take the A students as my doctor over the C student anytime. From the the princeton review "Complete Book of Medical Schools," the average MD student mcat was 30 and DO student was 24-25. The average on the mcat is usually an 8 in each section so an average test taker would score 24, personally I would want my doctor to be above average. I guess I expect too much from my doctor.


I'm sorry to tell you, but SDN is hardly an official source for numbers. So asking me to post a link to my claim and then posting one to SDN for yours is silly, even if the information is accurate. However, I think you misunderstood what I'm saying.

I wasn't referring to STEP 1 scores at all. Besides, except for maybe physiology, a good deal of the stuff you learn in your first two years is almost irrelevant to the average practicing physician. A General Practitioner does not need to recite the steps of glycolysis. S/he does need, however, to be able to efficiently and accurately perform the things s/he will see on a daily basis, and to be able to understood how medicine as an art works. That is stuff not necessarily tested on STEP 1. Ask your seasoned physician if s/he remembers all the biochemical reactions of the Krebs Cycle. Whether DO or MD, s/he will certainly not.

I was referring to the sheer number of medical mistakes made on a daily basis. I believe 90-95% of all physicians in this country are MDs, while the remainder are DOs. I don't have a link. It's on the AACOM site somewhere, I just don't remember where off-hand. All I was saying is that because there are more MDs than DOs, there is a larger number of mistakes made by MDs than DOs. That's a simple, logical conclusion.

By the way, don't think I'm attacking MDs; I'm not. I'm applying to allopathic programs, and by any standard you wish to discuss, I'm more than competitive. So, I'm not an embittered applicant, either.

Originally posted by Ischemia
I'm sorry to tell you, but SDN is hardly an official source for numbers. So asking me to post a link to my claim and then posting one to SDN for yours is silly, even if the information is accurate.

I was referring to the sheer number of medical mistakes made on a daily basis. I believe 90-95% of all physicians in this country are MDs, while the remainder are DOs. I don't have a link. It's on the AACOM site somewhere, I just don't remember where off-hand. All I was saying is that because there are more MDs than DOs, there is a larger number of mistakes made by MDs than DOs. That's a simple, logical conclusion.

If you click the link it isn't a forum, it's an info page on the USMLE step 1 that SDN put up. As for larger number of mistakes, I agree w/you that it is a logical conclusion due to sheer numbers of MDs. But what we really need to look at is per capita, number of medical errors per type of physician. Do you have any info on that? I well admit that some DO schools like CCOM, KCOM, and TUCOM have average mcats 27, which I would consider above average. So I'm sure their end product is pretty good having used better starting materials then the others.

Looking at numbers alone DO schools are easier to get into - low avg. GPAs, lower MCAT scores.

And according to some on this thread, lower grades and lower MCAT scores = inferior doctor while higher grades and higher MCAT scores = better doctor.

This creates a confusing situation where doctors will have to wear their transcripts, MCAT score reports, and personal statements on their lab coats at all times so that patients may differentiate between potentially good and bad doctors.

These materials are necessary because some MD schools, take Howard or the Puerto Rican schools for example, have classes with lower GPAs and MCAT scores than some of the DO schools. Some people earn their MDs at foreign caribbean and mexican medical schools which accept anyone with a pulse and a checkbook. Some people who pursue DO degrees have stellar GPAs and MCAT scores and chose DO school over MD school.

By reading these materials worn by the doctors, patients could find out if they have a good and motivated MD or DO or if they have a bad and lazy MD or DO. The licensing boards could be enlisted to create some kind of color coding to stratify the docs according to good and bad by granting different colored coats after review of the materials. There could be 4 different colors! Red = Good MD. Orange = Good DO. Green = Bad MD. Blue = Bad DO. What a colorful workplace it would be! And there could be different piping along the trim to account for grade inflation in undergraduate education. People that went to state universities where it is easy to get good grades with little motivation or effort could have white piping to modify their coats. People that went to ivies and top ranked liberal arts colleges where the average student is better than the best at a state school could have crimson piping. People that went to midrange universities could have yellow piping.

Upon walking into a hospital or clinic every person would be handed a coat color decoder so that they can decide if their doctor is any good. Afterall, relying on a patient's personal judgement of whether they have a good doctor or not is far too unreliable. Interpreters would be available for the color-blind and patient advocates would be on hand to help the blind.

There can even be a series of patches and pins to signify board scores and gross anatomy grades and rank within a residency program. It will be great.

Oh! And shoelaces...so much can be done with shoelaces....;)

There are DOs in Mass General, Brigham & Women's, Boston Children's, Memorial-Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Emory, etc. These DOs aren't only doing IM or FP at these places...they are in specialty areas. Obviously, they didn't get in by being second class. Allopathic students have difficulty in getting into these places, so I would in no way consider DOs to be inferior. I know of DO orthopods that did a DO orthopedic residency and had no trouble getting an MD fellowship at Brigham/Harvard.

By the way, one of our most recent Surgeon General was a DO.

What makes you a good doctor is your willingness to work hard and be a good clinician...not some exam!

P.S: The biggest and most unfortunate medical errors have been performed by MDs.....Duke transplant incident, doc taking the wrong part out of the brain at Cornell, etc.

Originally posted by UNEOSTEO
By the way, one of our most recent Surgeon General was a DO.

That is not true. It was a former Surgeon General of the ARMY that is a DO.

Originally posted by OphthoBean
And according to some on this thread, lower grades and lower MCAT scores = inferior doctor while higher grades and higher MCAT scores = better doctor.

This creates a confusing situation where doctors will have to wear their transcripts, MCAT score reports, and personal statements on their lab coats at all times so that patients may differentiate between potentially good and bad doctors.

These materials are necessary because some MD schools, take Howard or the Puerto Rican schools for example, have classes with lower GPAs and MCAT scores than some of the DO schools. Some people earn their MDs at foreign caribbean and mexican medical schools which accept anyone with a pulse and a checkbook. Some people who pursue DO degrees have stellar GPAs and MCAT scores and chose DO school over MD school.

By reading these materials worn by the doctors, patients could find out if they have a good and motivated MD or DO or if they have a bad and lazy MD or DO. The licensing boards could be enlisted to create some kind of color coding to stratify the docs according to good and bad by granting different colored coats after review of the materials. There could be 4 different colors! Red = Good MD. Orange = Good DO. Green = Bad MD. Blue = Bad DO. What a colorful workplace it would be! And there could be different piping along the trim to account for grade inflation in undergraduate education. People that went to state universities where it is easy to get good grades with little motivation or effort could have white piping to modify their coats. People that went to ivies and top ranked liberal arts colleges where the average student is better than the best at a state school could have crimson piping. People that went to midrange universities could have yellow piping.

Upon walking into a hospital or clinic every person would be handed a coat color decoder so that they can decide if their doctor is any good. Afterall, relying on a patient's personal judgement of whether they have a good doctor or not is far too unreliable. Interpreters would be available for the color-blind and patient advocates would be on hand to help the blind.

There can even be a series of patches and pins to signify board scores and gross anatomy grades and rank within a residency program. It will be great.

Oh! And shoelaces...so much can be done with shoelaces....;)

LOL..... this is a great concept. I think that we should go so far as to incorporate every academic experience you've ever had as far back as kindergarten. We could include stuff for those phenoms who learned to tie their shoes first, or if you were lucky enough to be selected to go retrieve milk from the cafeteria. Shoot, we could even incorporate merit badges from cub scouts and brownies!!! Imagine the posibilities!!! Your whole academic history would be in your clothing!!!! Choosing a good doctor would be fail safe endeavour. You would always get the best academically, hence the best all around b/c we all know that that's the only thing that counts!!! :laugh:

It's truly disheartening to read this thread. I believe in the merits of both allopathic and oseopathic programs, but what is hard to believe is that those of you who claim to be the MD-bound elitists fail to understand what it takes to be a good doctor. A doctor is not and should not be defined by the letters that follow his/her name nor by his MCAT score and GPA. Medicine is a field that uniquely couples intelligence and compassion into one seamless effort. It should not matter what your degree is, but the degree to which you can understand human emotion and disease. I wish that all of you would just step down and try to embrace the unity of MDs and DOs in practice. It's a reality, so get over it. I'm sorry that I've had to read what some of you so ignorantly post.

I wish that all of you would just step down and try to embrace the unity of MDs and DOs in practice. It's a reality, so get over it.It's not MD's that created this. The general population of patients would rather go to a specialist that is not a DO. They screen out DO's. MD's didn't create that atmosphere; it already existed.

Originally posted by Nirvana
It's not MD's that created this. The general population of patients would rather go to a specialist that is not a DO. They screen out DO's. MD's didn't create that atmosphere; it already existed.

So we should just perpetuate it??

I was interested in applying to DO schools myself, but couldn't afford to apply to both MD and DO programs. Here are two sites that should help you with learning more about osteopathic medicine:

http://www.aacom.org/

Are DO's losing their unique identity article (this is interesting) http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m3229/n8_v75/20775730/print.jhtml

Originally posted by Rev. Horace
So we should just perpetuate it??
As long as osteopathic schools have lower standards than medical schools, then they will be leading the way in perpetuating the low quality image of DO's. The public knows that the standards are lower...just like they know that there are low standards to get into a chiropractic school.

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9911/03/back.pain.care.wmd/

"Osteopathic manipulation may effectively treat back pain

Power over pain

November 3, 1999
Web posted at: 5:03 PM EST (2203 GMT)

By Mari N. Jensen

(WebMD) -- People with chronic low back pain who were treated with osteopathic manipulation used less medication and recovered as well as those who received standard medical care, a new study suggests.

Results published in this week's issue of The New England Journal of Medicine show that the two different treatment regimes were equally effective in reducing pain and improving range of motion for people who had low back pain for at least three weeks before they enrolled in the study. No matter which type of treatment they received, more than 90 percent of the patients said they were satisfied and would seek similar treatment again.

"Patients that for one reason or another would prefer manual therapy over medication can confidently choose that alternative," said lead author Gunnar Andersson, M.D., Ph.D., chairman of the orthopedic surgery department at Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's Medical Center in Chicago.

One out of five Americans suffers from back pain, said Andersson. About nine out of 10 people older than age 30 will experience back problems sometime in their lives, according to the North American Spine Society, a non-profit organization of more than 2,000 medical professionals who treat spine problems.

For most of these people, the problem will resolve within six weeks, said Andersson, whose study was funded by the American Osteopathic Association. But pain that continues past the six-week mark is more difficult to treat.

Back pain sufferers, the authors said, have traditionally been prescribed pain and anti-inflammatory medications and physical therapy exercises and modalities, such as ultrasound or hot and cold pack treatments.

Osteopathic manipulation literally requires the "laying on of hands," during which the osteopathic physician performs a series of manual maneuvers and techniques to relieve tight joints and muscles, said study co-author Robert Kappler, D.O., an osteopathic physician at the Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine in Downers Grove, Illinois.

To test whether these manipulations could provide faster recovery and relief, Andersson and his colleagues recruited about 155 patients and randomly assigned them to receive either standard medical therapy or osteopathic manual therapy. People whose back pain stemmed from specific diseases, such as cancer or scoliosis, were not included in the study.

During the 12-week study, people assigned to the standard-care group received a standard course of treatment including physical therapy and medication. People in the osteopathic group received osteopathic manual treatment, in addition to physical therapy and medications as needed.

Patients fared equally well under standard care and osteopathic treatment, according to study results. No matter which treatment they received, the patients had less pain and better range of motion by the end of the study.

Reduced pain may not be the only benefit to osteopathic manipulation, the authors wrote. The reductions in both the amount of medication used and the costs of physical therapy may be important benefits.

Speaking on behalf of the American Osteopathic Association, Boyd Buser, D.O., said the study demonstrates that "when osteopathic manipulative treatment is part of the total approach to patients with this type of back pain, we can achieve just as good outcomes with probably significantly less cost." Buser is an osteopathic physician at the University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine in Biddeford, Maine and past president of the American Academy of Osteopathy.

But back pain researcher Paul Shekelle, M.D., said that osteopathy doesn't necessarily save money. While the study confirms that manipulation may be a viable way to treat back pain, he said, it would actually be more expensive.

"Let's diverge at the treatment point," explained Shekelle, an internist at the Greater Los Angeles VA Healthcare System. "I give you a month's worth of drugs and tell you to come back; versus treatment point B, where you would get six or eight visits, or whatever, to the osteopath. In the real world, you'd get two doctor visits.

"Now the question is whether you think those six osteopath visits are going to be less than the cost of a month's ibuprofen. No way. No way, man!""

So, if you want to talk facts.. the facts are that:
1. Most lay people have no clue what a DO is
2. Usmle Passage rates are lower for DO's than MD's
3. Application GPA and MCATS are significanly lower in DO's than MDs... this *IS* important because MANY studies correlate things such as MCAT scores to clinical ability (as rated by residency director evaluations, grades, etc).
4. DO's can't practice outside of the states...

Now, as far as malpractice and such, i'd be interested to see per-capita studies. *THAT* would be interesting... I have my suspicions... Although...regarding law suits, that may be skewed. The higher socio-economic segments of society are choosier and probably go to MD's at a higher rate than those in the lower brackets.

This is a guess, but the higher class are probably more likely to sue because they have the financial means and they are more educated and have greater access to the legal system.

Also, the higher class probably can afford to get riskier operations if their health insurance doesn't cover it...therefore, the law suits could be higher for MD's...but that's just speculation on my part.

Originally posted by CatsAreKillers
As long as osteopathic schools have lower standards than medical schools, then they will be leading the way in perpetuating the low quality image of DO's. The public knows that the standards are lower...just like they know that there are low standards to get into a chiropractic school.

I find this confusing, on the one hand I have people saying that the public has no idea what a DO is and now I'm hearing that not only do they know what DO's are, they also know the standard for admissions to osteopathic schools. I find that very hard to believe.

;)

http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/2/15/60447

"1954 Sheppard Case Reopened
UPI
February 15, 2000

Famed criminal defense lawyer F. Lee Bailey testified Monday, the first witness in the third trial of the Sam Sheppard murder case, one of the 20th century's most infamous crimes.

Bailey defended the late osteopathic surgeon during a 1966 retrial, which ended with an acquittal. The case became the basis for "The Fugitive" television series and movie.

Sheppard's son, Sam Reese Sheppard of Oakland, Calif., is now asking a civil jury to declare his late father innocent of killing his pregnant wife, Marilyn, on July 4, 1955. The Sheppard family must obtain such a declaration to file a $2 million wrongful imprisonment lawsuit against the state of Ohio.

Dr. Sheppard was originally found guilty of his wife's death in what then was called "the trial of the century" and served 10 years in prison before the U.S. Supreme Court, in a landmark decision, ruled massive, worldwide pre-trial publicity had deprived him of a fair trial and ordered the verdict overturned. He died in 1970, four years after being acquitted during the second trial."

Perhaps the 'one-armed man' was the patient of an allopathic surgeon? :D

Just kidding.

I respect anyone who dedicates themselves to the medical profession. We need to move beyond the bickering and sniping and work together. I hope that we can do this.

- Tae

Originally posted by republicandr

Are DO's losing their unique identity article (this is interesting) http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m3229/n8_v75/20775730/print.jhtml

Wow - good article. Thanks!

- Tae

Originally posted by tkim6599
;)

I respect anyone who dedicates themselves to the medical profession. We need to move beyond the bickering and sniping and work together. I hope that we can do this.

- Tae

It won't happen as long as people keep hanging on to board scores, MCAT scores, GPA's and 2 freaking letters that come after your name. :(

Originally posted by tkim6599
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9911/03/back.pain.care.wmd/

"Osteopathic manipulation may effectively treat back pain

Power over pain

November 3, 1999
Web posted at: 5:03 PM EST (2203 GMT)

By Mari N. Jensen

(WebMD) -- People with chronic low back pain who were treated with osteopathic manipulation used less medication and recovered as well as those who received standard medical care, a new study suggests.




If you have access, I would suggest reading not only the article (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/341/19/1426?maxtoshow=&HITS=20&hits=20&RESULTFORMAT=&titleabstract=osteopathic&searchid=1046239001432_9139&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=PUBDATE_SORTDATE+desc+Score+desc&fdate=1/1/1975&tdate=2/28/2003&journalcode=nejm), but also the responses (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/342/11/817)


I know some people have been excited about that study finding that drug use was less in the osteopath group. If you read the article you see that this is not a primary outcome, and was entirely dependent upon physician prescribing orders (since the drugs were prescription drugs). I would think one getting standard care (MD) would be more likely to be prescribed drugs whereas the DO physicians would be more hesitant to prescribe. The similar primary outcomes, being so similar, suggest that the increased drug usage was not any more effective than OMT, but the study didn't really dive into analysis of drug use.

Originally posted by UNEOSTEO
There are DOs in Mass General, Brigham & Women's, Boston Children's, Memorial-Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Emory, etc. These DOs aren't only doing IM or FP at these places...they are in specialty areas. Obviously, they didn't get in by being second class. Allopathic students have difficulty in getting into these places, so I would in no way consider DOs to be inferior. I know of DO orthopods that did a DO orthopedic residency and had no trouble getting an MD fellowship at Brigham/Harvard.

Not to inflame the argument any further, but why then do most premedical students aspire to be MDs rather than DOs, if admissions standards for DO schools are less strigent and both pathways provide the same opportunities, as many DO's insist?

On another note, I think OMM is a good clinical tool. I saw a DO for migraines that plagued me for over 6 months. After some weeks of sessions with the DO, my headaches were gone.

Here check out the archives of family medicine journals of the ama. http://archfami.ama-assn.org/issues/v8n6/ffull/fsa8021.html it states:

"Although many osteopaths use manipulation as an adjunct to treat many illnesses, there are no large controlled trials of the effectiveness of manipulation for conditions other than lower back pain ... Studies that have shown positive effects of manipulation for back pain have been criticized for not adequately controlling placebo effect. Doran and Newell65 concluded after studying 456 patients that although a few patients responded rapidly to manipulation, there were no significant differences compared with physiotherapy, corsets, and analgesics ... Osteopathic medicine is similar to allopathic medicine, but places a greater emphasis on the importance of the musculoskeletal system and normal body mechanics as central to good health. To support this emphasis, more basic research and controlled trials for the effectiveness of manipulation are needed."

Originally posted by batman123

On another note, I think OMM is a good clinical tool. I saw a DO for migraines that plagued me for over 6 months. After some weeks of sessions with the DO, my headaches were gone.
PLACEBO effect.

Originally posted by kreno
The question is, do osteopathic schools have to use such sub-standard, relatively speaking, admission standards???????

Ah, but the corollary would be, do allopathic schools have to use as high of a standard, relatively speaking, for admission?

Few would argue that the hard numbers in every application to medical school are used not only to gauge the odds of completing medical school, but also to filter through the sheer number of applicants for a limited number of seats each school has.

Now, if the average admission stats that are tossed around - being a 3.x GPA, and 3X MCAT, the minimums needed to be successful in med school, then there is are the puzzling examples of people who fall below those averages who do very well, and people above who fail out.

I would be more inclined to agree about the supposed sub-par abilities of osteopaths or their educations, if DO schools had higher dropout rates or a higher incidence of malpractice claims. I Googled to see if such statistics existed, but I couldn't find any.

I've been told quite often by physicians whom I have worked with over the years that surviving in medical school is all about hard work more so than raw intelligence. I believe this to be true.

I would hesitate to draw a straight line from lower admissions standards for DO schools, compared to MD schools, to the conclusion that their students are of lower quality.

- Tae

Gosh..its really sad that there are so many ignorant people out in the world. There are SOOOOO many threads on this topic and the same thing is said over and over and OVER again...I think this topic has been talked to death and it never accomplishes anything because the ignorant people refuse to see the truth...are you guys that insecure with yourselves that you have to try and make other people feel inferior? i really think that is the issue. oh and by the way i'm not directing this towards anyone in particular...thats all i have to say:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD
PLACEBO effect.

Ah yes...how MD students such as yourself attain your self-confidence.

Originally posted by rbassdo
Ah yes...how MD students such as yourself attain your self-confidence.
Let me quote the Journals of the AMA Archives of Family Medicine again for you ""Although many osteopaths use manipulation as an adjunct to treat many illnesses, there are no large controlled trials of the effectiveness of manipulation for conditions other than lower back pain ... Studies that have shown positive effects of manipulation for back pain have been criticized for not adequately controlling placebo effect."

Originally posted by Adcadet
I know some people have been excited about that study finding that drug use was less in the osteopath group. If you read the article you see that this is not a primary outcome, and was entirely dependent upon physician prescribing orders (since the drugs were prescription drugs). I would think one getting standard care (MD) would be more likely to be prescribed drugs whereas the DO physicians would be more hesitant to prescribe. The similar primary outcomes, being so similar, suggest that the increased drug usage was not any more effective than OMT, but the study didn't really dive into analysis of drug use.

Ah, I don't have full access to the NEJM article base. I was trying to point out that osteopathy is perhaps trying to make good on their claims that OMT works.

This is the thing that intrigues me about osteopathy - that I will have an additional skill set for diagnosis and treatment. Granted, it may be all smoke and mirrors, and if it is, then I can prescribe and cut to my heart's desire. But if OMT works, then I have that as well.

Proof's in the pudding, so they say. I get to experience it first-hand soon.

- Tae

Originally posted by tkim6599


This is the thing that intrigues me about osteopathy - that I will have an additional skill set for diagnosis and treatment. Granted, it may be all smoke and mirrors, and if it is, then I can prescribe and cut to my heart's desire. But if OMT works, then I have that as well.

It is just smoke and mirrors, how many times do I have to say this "PLACEBO EFFECT." Since this is obviously not working how about another term "scientific method", did we totally forget about this.

Originally posted by kreno
At michigan state university (i know so much 'cuz i'm an undergrad here), again, there are two medical schools... an osteopathic AND an allopathic...

some more facts:

to pass certain classes in the first year (again, both DO and MD students sit-in on the SAME classes first year, same prof, same room, same time, same everything... except DO students also take some manipulative osteopathic classes), allopathic students are held to a *HIGHER* threshold for passing (i think it's like 65% in anatomy for MD and 55% for DO.. I forget the numbers). I question this.



AGAIN NO ONE ADDRESSED THE *NON* numbers stats of allopathic vs. osteopathic applicants! Again, DO schools rant and rave how they look "beyond the numbers"; i'm curious how they do so... and if indeed they manage to do so at all any more than allopathic schools. ridiculous.

blah blah blah...there is no need to repeat yourself

Originally posted by SuzyQ
blah blah blah...there is no need to repeat yourself
Now those are some valid points, have you ever thought about a JD.:D Please don't flame me, I love SuzyQs and a glass of milk.

I guess I just don't want to waste my energy on ignorant people...:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD
It is just smoke and mirrors, how many times do I have to say this "PLACEBO EFFECT." Since this is obviously not working how about another term "scientific method", did we totally forget about this.

I read the article you provided a link to - thanks!

However, it does not dismiss OMT as 'placebo effect.' It mostly states that the studies involving OMT, while mostly having positive results, were not rigorous enough to withstand criticism.

It also went on to explain why such rigor would be difficult to achieve in any study involving OMT - not being able to 'blind' the physician delivering treatment.

You could abruptly dismiss anything you could not tack down as 'placebo effect', or perhaps withhold judgement until serious research is done. Your choice, of course.

- Tae

Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD
Let me quote the Journals of the AMA Archives of Family Medicine again for you ""Although many osteopaths use manipulation as an adjunct to treat many illnesses, there are no large controlled trials of the effectiveness of manipulation for conditions other than lower back pain ... Studies that have shown positive effects of manipulation for back pain have been criticized for not adequately controlling placebo effect."

Wow! You're really going out of your way. Hey look...I can appreciate your ability to find problems with OMM, etc. As far as my prior post - I was just MOSTLY messing around. You left yourself wide open with your "placebo" comment.

As for my personal experience with OMM...I will continue to use it occasionally, as long as I can see that it is benefitting patients. It's got to be a case-to-case kind of thing. I don't know of any studies that have directly refuted the effectiveness of OMM. I will admit that the greater osteopathic community has not effectively proved its efficacy. I believe that will be changed soon as I see several research institutes being created at various osteopathic institutions. Quite the paradox since the trend seems to be heading away from the average DO using OMM on a REGULAR basis.

interesting website about osteopaths

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD
Let me quote the Journals of the AMA Archives of Family Medicine again for you ""Although many osteopaths use manipulation as an adjunct to treat many illnesses, there are no large controlled trials of the effectiveness of manipulation for conditions other than lower back pain ... Studies that have shown positive effects of manipulation for back pain have been criticized for not adequately controlling placebo effect."

Hey Deuce:

Before you go feeling all superior and all, why don't you take a look at the results of an study of Placebo effect and arthroscopic surgery:

http://www.hopkins-arthritis.som.jhmi.edu/news-archive/2002/arthroscopy.html

My two cents

Originally posted by Rothgar
Hey Deuce:

Before you go feeling all superior and all, why don't you take a look at the results of an study of Placebo effect and arthroscopic surgery:

http://www.hopkins-arthritis.som.jhmi.edu/news-archive/2002/arthroscopy.html

My two cents
Hey arthroscopic surgery is not one of the founding tennants of the MD, OMM/OMT is the primary distinction/tennants of the DO. Go to the site that Kreno posted and you'll see this from a David E. Jones Ph.D.

"I spent 12 years teaching basic sciences and 7 years as an associate dean at the an osteopathic medical school ... The department of manipulative medicine was completely segregated from the other departments, both in principles and in practice. The osteopathic faculty members in the standard medical departments neither practiced nor taught OMT. Nor did the OMT faculty practice or teach the standard forms of medicine. It was as if OMT was a freestanding form of health care -- one that, unlike other departments, was not necessarily bound by scientific foundations. Being a basic science researcher, I have made attempts to set up an animal model to objectively test the claim that certain harmful forms of sympathetic nerve traffic could be altered by spinal OMT. However, I never received any support from the osteopathic faculty in seeing such a study completed."

Dude, it's getting late, I'll battle with you OMM purest tomorrow. Until then LBC you later.

a few points:
1) even if OMT achieves results solely throught the placebo effect, what is the big deal? WTF is the point in explaining to a patient why she's got a headache if you cant do anything about it? If I've got migraines - FIX IT. I dont give an F how you do it, i just want it gone. IMHO at some point medicine really boils down to what works rather than why something works.
2) the whole USMLE pass rate issue is taken out of context. DO students arent taught for the USMLE, they're taught for the COMLEX. I wonder what the path rate for MD students would be on the COMLEX? To berate DO's for a less than stellar USMLE pass rate is ignorant.
3) be wary of the categorical persecution of DO's. nothing good has ever come out of zealous fanaticism. it is good that there is more than one point of view on medical treatment; there is more than one way to skin a cat (btw - who would do that to a kitty anyway?!)
4) and this for me is a philosophical issue that even now makes me wonder what i'm doing going to med school:
as i get closer and closer to entering the medical world i am increasingly concerned with the callous way in which medicine is administered. its one thing to say that residents and interns are overworked and dont have time to care enough emotionally about their patients - but that still doesnt make it right. from what i understand, DOs and MDs have a fundamentally different approach to medicine with DO's being much more hands on.
"I don't know of any osteopathic physician who at some point in the physical exam doesn't have a hand on the patient," says Roy. "It could be a shoulder, back, thigh, or knee. Just the idea that there's a connection being established. That's how we've been trained. Is it subjective, touchy-feely stuff that's hard to document? God, yes! But it certainly goes to the heart of what makes us different."
source: http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m3229/n8_v75/20775730/print.jhtml
that is MY idea of a physician. it isnt someone who is there to diagnose your illness, give you a couple pills and send you on your way. maybe I am a little naive, but I want more. we (especially on this board) expect doctors to be more than just booksmart (for instance the sheer number of times people say that getting in to med school is more than stats - e.g. kreno in this thread). yet the only folks who actually embrace this idea are DO's. it should make you think.
and if it doesnt. thats ok - you're wrong.
:)

Average GPAs and MCAT's are lower for DOs than (US) MDs. This is a fact and there's no point arguing about it. It's a very poor argument to say that some DO schools have higher statistics than some MD schools because you're comparing TOP DO vs. Bottom MD (therefore weakening your argument). If the stats were truly equal, than the top DO schools should only be compared to the top MD schools, and assuredl,y no DO school has 36 and 3.8 averages like Hopkins and Harvard.

NOW, that said, in no way do I assume that having a DO or an MD means how good of a doctor you are in general. Obviously both types run the spectrum from horrible to excellent. HOWEVER, returning to the ORIGINAL point of this thread, I can understand how MD surgeons or Internal Medicine subspecialty fellows trained in allopathic institutions would be superior to DOs trained in osteopathic surgical residencies and subspecialty fellowships on AVERAGE (with exceptions obviously). As has been mentioned, that is because they see MORE cases with more DIVERSITY. I am correlating experience and quality to the training and volume, NOT to the degrees. Again, I'm speaking ONLY about heavily procedural specialties which are simply practiced more at allopathic institutions.

Returning to another point made earlier in this thread, it is a very weak and unproved point that "MD schools take people with great stats and nothing else and DO schools look at the whole applicant." I'm calling BS here. This is how it is: MD schools take people with good stats AND good experiences and DO schools take people with slightly lower stats AND good experiences. To argue anything else is ridiculous. Now, you could certainly convince me that DO students have had MORE experiences than MD students but this would be because they are on average, OLDER. That doesn't make their experiences BETTER. To be honest, I think this comes down to pride. DO matricultants want to believe that their MD counterparts spent so much studying to get their high stats that they didn't get clinical experiences or so forth. The truth is, we were able to do BOTH and this doesn't sit well with (some) DO students who believe that "hmm, great stats and great clinical/life experiences are mutually exclusive." Now, I'm not going to correlate higher statistics with being a better doctor, but the fact remains that they can be used at some level. Clearly, DO schools don't accept people with 1.0 GPAs for a reason so there has got to be a point at which you consider it. I just don't know how you would make that determination.

Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD
It is just smoke and mirrors, how many times do I have to say this "PLACEBO EFFECT." Since this is obviously not working how about another term "scientific method", did we totally forget about this.


Hmmm... I wonder if this makes hands-on physical therapy techniques just as scientifically bogus. I'm sure there's no way to blind a physical therapist to the manual treatment s/he is giving either. Yet, many physicians refer patients to PT's...

One more thought: OMM must be a pretty strong placebo for it to have comparable efficacy to anagesics for low back pain, don't you think?

Originally posted by bw07
Clearly, DO schools don't accept people with 1.0 GPAs for a reason so there has got to be a point at which you consider it. Neither do beauty schools accept less than 1.0 GPA's, and I wouldn't want a beauty-school grad operating on me. :eek:

:laugh:

{tap, tap} Is this mike on?


And yes, I crack myself up sometimes. :laugh:

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Originally posted by kreno
okay, guys... generalizations based on a few stories don't work.. fine... but

lets get serious here. i'm sure there are compedent DO's out there... but

um... they ARE second-class doctors and will continue to be so-long as they are so easily admitted.

At michigan state oseopathic medical school, average MCAT scores are 24... and gpa like a 3.4

now i'm NOT saying or implying that HIGH GPA+HIGH MCAT = GOOD DOCTOR... but there is a limit. Would you want someone diagnosing you... thinking dynamically, blah blah blah... that was only motivated enough to get a 3.4 in college and a 24 on the MCAT? You just *HAVE* to draw the line somewhere.

Also, as far as the professional community is concerned... they're just NOT respected in the yes of most PhD's, MD's, Dentists, etc. My PHD reserach prof the other day was making fun of the DO, PhD program... calling them "Doffs" and questing why the heck someone would bother with just a long program and not just get a "real medical degree."

In any regard, DO hospitals are generally less-funded and have a lot less opportunity...

I know at Michigan state, where DO and MD students take the SAME science coursework the first year, MD students consistently score better on exams.

And, of course, there have been studies which correlate MCAT score with later USMLE performance and even clinical skills... so, again, even though it's not perfect.... there is a line. I'M SORRY BUT IF YOU GOT A 24 ON THE MCAT YOU'RE *NOT* GONNA BE THE ONE DIAGNOSING *MY* KID. period.

And what i was saying about motivation before... i'm an avid believer that GPA is MUCH more correlated to motivation than intelligence.... and therefore, when someone goes into medicine and has a low GPA, and therefore only gets into DO school... a low GPA tells me something about their overall motivation (with the exception, of course, of people that had significant instances in their life which caused a lowering of their GPA).


kreno

This little kid keeps posting some of the dumbest opinions I've ever heard. It's actually quite funny. Guess what, dude. In the future, all primary care docs are going to be DOs and YOU are going to be living off the referrals of US, the primary care DOs. If you don't watch what the F*** you're doing, you're gonna be begging for our forgiveness so you can feed your family.

I cannot believe what this thread mushroomed into over night. But, okay...

Someone said earlier that "...no allopathic school..." would admit anyone to their program with a 45 and 4.0 unless they had previous clinical experience. That is not true. If you look in the MSAR, you will see that nobody above a 40 MCAT was turned down for admission.

A first year DO student said that DOs should only be in primary-care. I don't want to attack his personality or anything of the sort, but that is the dumbest statement I've ever heard. There are many fine DO specialists. And, as previously stated and commonly accepted, what matters to a specialist is where s/he receives residency training, not necessarily where s/he receives a doctoral degree from. To that end, there are many DOs at top-tier allopathic residency programs across the country.

Someone also compared DOs to chiropractors earlier. I think we'd all agree that they are completely distinct in all areas (except OMT, where there appears to be a similarity only because of hands-on physical techniques; even then, there are differences). If we wouldn't agree, you haven't clearly read up on what osteopathic medicine is.

I can't wait for some of these MD students to look like a fool in front of a DO attending. Now, I'm sure (due to MCAT scores) that these MD kids obviously have the common sense to not completely disrespect a DO attending, but their pompous attitudes will shine through.

And the cycles continues

Obviously we're not going to change anyone's mind here. But that's OK. They're undergraduate PREMEDS who have NO EXPERIENCE in the real world. They're locked up in their college world surrounded by premed friends, trying to decide whether they should go to HMS or Hopkins or WashU based on other people's preception and not whether or not the school is the right fit for them.

Do people honestly care if their docs are MDs or DOs? HECK NO. Most don't even know what a DO is. So why would people GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to avoid DOs if they don't know what they are?

Please tell this dumb pre-DO student (who btw got above a 30 MCAT TWICE) the logic behind that argument.

People don't choose doctors based on degrees. In fact, people shouldn't be choosing doctors based on medical school eithers. There are more relevant factors that they should consider - such as where they did their residencies, are they board certified, how long have they been practicing, etc. People choose their doctors based on whether they are listed in their HMO booklet, or how friendly and caring a doctor is, or the proximity of their office location and office hours, etc. MDs or DOs mean nothing to them - if they wear a labcoat, can write Rx, and admit to hospitals - they are good enough for them.

Very few people actively choose MDs over DOs. There are some who go exclusively to DOs for OMT. But a vast majority of people just don't care. There are a lot of people who don't even know that their doctors are DOs.

Just remember this story that was told to me by an attending:
At MCP Hosital, a group of medical students were following some residents and this particular attending on rounds. They noticed another group of DO students and doctors doing rounds. One of them goes "Look over there at the doctor-wanna-be. They couldn't get into a real medical school." And everyone laughed. All except this one particular attending. The attending looks at the naive student and goes "You do know I'm a DO right?"

Group_theory

Originally posted by group_theory

Please tell this dumb pre-DO student (who btw got above a 30 MCAT TWICE) the logic behind that argument.


group theory,
Why did you take the MCAT 2x if you got above a 30. You would be a shoe-in at any DO school with a score above a 30, even if you have a low GPA. Did you apply to both MD schools and DO schools and not get accepted at an allopathic school? I don't understand why you would take the MCAT 2x if you are so bent on going the DO route? Just a little confused! Please clarify.
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Originally posted by CG-RN-MD2B
This little kid keeps posting some of the dumbest opinions I've ever heard. It's actually quite funny. Guess what, dude. In the future, all primary care docs are going to be DOs and YOU are going to be living off the referrals of US, the primary care DOs. If you don't watch what the F*** you're doing, you're gonna be begging for our forgiveness so you can feed your family.


funny, your name has "MD2B" in it, yet you are going to be a DO? How about that MCAT? :cool:

Originally posted by georgesltd56
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....

Was that a DO site for manipulation of the pubocockus? I've always wondered how they treated that bone...

I think that a lot of MD's fear change. Things have been the same for so many years and here come DO's with a new philosophy on the profession of medicine. The truth is that patients don't care whether the doctor is an MD or DO, they care whether they like him/her, are comfortable with him/her, and whether he/she is competent.

Here I go with my generalizations. Many, many MD's I met were pompous bastards. One of them wanted to ruin my life (I don't want to get into that). On the other hand, I found that more (at least to my perception) DO's were more down to earth and normal. I had my misconceptions about DO school, but the truth is that I will end up doing with my life what I want to do. I want to treat and help patients. Honestly, it is up to each individual to chosoe what type of physician he/she will be. Nice or Pompous so that your patients are afraid of asking you questions because you will laugh in their face (I had my MD do that to me, and my question was not stupid. Trust me on that)

So my question is, how likely is it that if I stay in Boston, I will ever find an attending that is a DO? I have worked at a lot of hospitals in the area, and although their may be a handful of DO's at MGH, the Brigham or Boston Children's, I have yet to meet one (maybe I didn't read some people's name tags, but I really don't think I have met one). When you see them listed as hospital staff, you also don't know what they are doing in the hospital...i.e. an MD working in a cell biology lab would show up as an MD employee of the Brigham but would never be found on the wards.

After reading some particularly harsh DO/MD arguments, I did ask a few of my friends what they thought about the subject. They all had very unfavorable opinions of osteopathy, but they too had never met a DO (I was surprised that they knew the difference but they did).

What I'm trying to say is that I have run into stereotypes from both pre-meds and people outside the field, but neither of these stereotypes are based upon real encounters with DO's. Unfortunately, I'm afraid these stereotypes will continue to exist at least around here simply because of lack of exposure.

I will say that my opinions have greatly changed after learning that one of my coworkers was planning on attending a DO school next year. He wants to practice rural medicine which I think is just fantastic since that is something I know that I could never handle. I would never think less of him because he didn't do well on the MCATs or maybe didn't do as well in college as he might have. I think that SDN does a lot to perpetuate any stereotypes pre-allopaths might have because for some reason all these posts that suggest that pre-MD's are young, arrogant, unqualified beside a post that claims "I had a 20 MCAT and a 3.2 gpa and just got into an osteopathic school" don't make any pre-md feel so great, particulary when their 32, 3.6 and 500 hours of volunteer work hasn't gotten them an allopathic school yet. Things are said on these boards that would never be said in person. Sometimes they can irk you in the wrong way, and it seems like these MD/DO arguments do that on both ends.

Originally posted by Blitzkrieg
....

Was that a DO site for manipulation of the pubocockus? I've always wondered how they treated that bone...
Dats some funny shiz. :laugh:

Originally posted by CG-RN-MD2B
This little kid keeps posting some of the dumbest opinions I've ever heard. It's actually quite funny. Guess what, dude. In the future, all primary care docs are going to be DOs and YOU are going to be living off the referrals of US, the primary care DOs. If you don't watch what the F*** you're doing, you're gonna be begging for our forgiveness so you can feed your family.

funny, your name has "MD2B" in it, yet you are going to be a DO? How about that MCAT? :cool:

Question to the pro-DO people. How come you guys don't address the issue of the validity of OMM? Yes I'm sure some of you are likely to become great physicians, just as likely as some MDs well become terrible ones. But on the OMM/OMT/OPP thing I question it's foundation in science. I would admit that in some cases it does help back pain, but just because it works, doesn't mean we shouldn't investigate why and how it works. Just becauses a placebo works doesn't mean one has the right to bill uneducated patients for it. There are psychic healers who in the mind of the uninformed can heal all kinds of things from being paralyzed to demonic possesion, doesn't mean they should be able to practice medicine. When I was in undergrad taking calculus, we didn't blindly accept a therom or formula on the authority of the professor. He had to prove it or derive it for us before we accepted it as true. OMM/OMT/OPP should be the same way, if you disagree I have some cold fusion reactors that you might want to buy.

Originally posted by aquaboy
group theory,
Why did you take the MCAT 2x if you got above a 30. You would be a shoe-in at any DO school with a score above a 30, even if you have a low GPA. Did you apply to both MD schools and DO schools and not get accepted at an allopathic school? I don't understand why you would take the MCAT 2x if you are so bent on going the DO route? Just a little confused! Please clarify.
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I felt that my score (from the first mcat) did not accurately reflect upon my knowledge and understanding of the material. I decided to take it a second time to see if I can raise it (more of a personal challenge). A good analogy would be a kid taking the SAT over again even though he got a 1510 - just to see if he could get that 1600.

I applied to both DO and MD schools and have gotten acceptances to both types. However, I choose PCOM because it was the right fit for me. I'm not choosing DO schools over MD schools or MD schools over DO schools - I'm choosing based on which school would I be happiest - which school would fit my needs, my desires. I'm choosing based on my "gut feelings". To choose a school based solely on the degree that it grants is to do a great injustice to oneself.

Originally posted by kreno
At michigan state university (i know so much 'cuz i'm an undergrad here), again, there are two medical schools... an osteopathic AND an allopathic...



Dude, you don't even have your Bachelor's yet and your criticizing trained professionals?

That statement shows why you have an inexperienced outlook on professionalism. Maybe you might want to spend time in the workforce before you start med school to get some perspective.

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
PHO,
The NIH gave millions last year to create the osteopathic research center at TCOM in Fort Worth, Texas. The studies are being controlled by some very skeptical PhD faculty who are seeing that there is no bias in the designs. If it shows that OMM is worthless and does nothing, then my guess is that you will hear about it. If it shows that there is a strong correlation between OMM and improved function, then what will you think then?
I might start to think that OMM would have some merit, but like most things in science one study is not the end all be all. More reproducable studies should be done and more empirical evidence should be gathered.

Originally posted by merlin17
So my question is, how likely is it that if I stay in Boston, I will ever find an attending that is a DO? I have worked at a lot of hospitals in the area, and although their may be a handful of DO's at MGH, the Brigham or Boston Children's, I have yet to meet one (maybe I didn't read some people's name tags, but I really don't think I have met one). When you see them listed as hospital staff, you also don't know what they are doing in the hospital...i.e. an MD working in a cell biology lab would show up as an MD employee of the Brigham but would never be found on the wards.

After reading some particularly harsh DO/MD arguments, I did ask a few of my friends what they thought about the subject. They all had very unfavorable opinions of osteopathy, but they too had never met a DO (I was surprised that they knew the difference but they did).

What I'm trying to say is that I have run into stereotypes from both pre-meds and people outside the field, but neither of these stereotypes are based upon real encounters with DO's. Unfortunately, I'm afraid these stereotypes will continue to exist at least around here simply because of lack of exposure.

I will say that my opinions have greatly changed after learning that one of my coworkers was planning on attending a DO school next year. He wants to practice rural medicine which I think is just fantastic since that is something I know that I could never handle. I would never think less of him because he didn't do well on the MCATs or maybe didn't do as well in college as he might have. I think that SDN does a lot to perpetuate any stereotypes pre-allopaths might have because for some reason all these posts that suggest that pre-MD's are young, arrogant, unqualified beside a post that claims "I had a 20 MCAT and a 3.2 gpa and just got into an osteopathic school" don't make any pre-md feel so great, particulary when their 32, 3.6 and 500 hours of volunteer work hasn't gotten them an allopathic school yet. Things are said on these boards that would never be said in person. Sometimes they can irk you in the wrong way, and it seems like these MD/DO arguments do that on both ends.

You have to understand that in some areas of the country, DO's are not prominent. However, it states like PA they are as abundant as MD's. As you know, PA has MD institutions like Penn, Jeff, Penn State, Pitt, Temple, and Drexel. If you go to these schools websites and look at their current resident roster, you'll see many DO's. Its all about supply and demand. I admit that before being interested in a medical career, I had no idea what a DO was. Actually, I thought it was a board certification like FACES (or whatever) is. Since my discovery, I have seen no difference in the quality of care between MD and DO. In fact, the doctor who provided pre-natal care for my second child is a DO and he was awesome.

The last point I want to make is that I believe there is a HUGE difference between allopathic and osteopathic residencies. This is were DO's have the bad image. Because most Do hospitals are underfunded and in the boondocks, they do not see the volume of patients and the variety of illness that MD institutions do (especially in surgery as the OP suggested). My opinion is that DO/MD is an equivalent education, however allopathic graduate training is FAR superior.

Originally posted by What the pho
Question to the pro-DO people. How come you guys don't address the issue of the validity of OMM?.... But on the OMM/OMT/OPP thing I question it's foundation in science. I would admit that in some cases it does help back pain, but just because it works, doesn't mean we shouldn't investigate why and how it works.

I absolutely agree. If anything, our generation should be excited to figure out exactly what's up with OMT. If you are looking to make your mark in research, and you're a med student of any type, this might be a great field of research to get involved in.

One quick addendum: we use the term OMT for convenience, but we should all bear in mind that OMT encompasses a vast amount of techniques that aren't interrelated. A blanket denunciation or approval of OMT is sort of baby-with-the-bathwater-ish.

What's scary to me is how many of you egotistical snobs are actually going to be physicians. For a profession that's so respected and demands so much maturity, the lack of the latter is gravely disheartening.

I truly think many of you lack a true perception of what goes into the making of a good doctor.

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
Maybe I should tell them that DEUCE finds OMM to only be placebo, and thus I have decided not to use it any longer. Hey DEUCE, have you ever demanded a study on whether boxers or briefs affects your sex life more or less? But yet daily you put on one or the other I suppose, and place them right next to your only functional gyri. If you don't know what Gyri are, then head to Stedman's and see :) You better call Jockey and demand that they immediately fund this study because if they don't your sex life could be at stake.

And for all who want to argue stats, how is it that a DO student can score the highest on the USMLE Step I the last two years with all those MD students in the country. Must be placebo I suppose. :clap:
What are you talking about I was quoting the Journals of the AMA on the placebo thing. I?ve quoted them 3 times already for you gung-ho OMM fanatics, and highlighted it in bold, go back a few post and you?ll see it. I guess it takes more then repeating a quote 3 times for certain people in certain medical schools to get something. As for Gyri, I don?t need a Stedman?s, I have Moore and Dailey, Grants, Rohen & Yokochi, and if that all fails I have WebMD. No I won?t be using WebDO. I?m talking about the main defining feature of Osteopathy needing to be proven scientifically and your talking about study on reproduction and tight underwear. I?ve never demanded a study on how boxers and briefs affect ones sex life, because my boxer or briefs don?t proclaim to have a medical philosophy, that has curative properties, OMM does. That?s why OMM should be scientifically investigated, until then the jury is still out. OMM/OMT has only been around for ohh a 100 years or so. Why did it take so long for science based studies to be preformed, and nothing conclusive as of yet? When Watson & Crick where figuring out the DNA double helix did they just pull it out of their ass? Did everyone accept it for years w/out evidence? If Still believed in cold fusion and enron, you'd be buying it today.

As for the DO student with the highest USMLE score, I?d like to see where that information came from. I agree w/ PHO that some DOs are likely to become great physicians, just as likely as some MDs well become terrible ones.

Originally posted by kreno

I'M SORRY BUT IF YOU GOT A 24 ON THE MCAT YOU'RE *NOT* GONNA BE THE ONE DIAGNOSING *MY* KID. period.

And what i was saying about motivation before... i'm an avid believer that GPA is MUCH more correlated to motivation than intelligence.... and therefore, when someone goes into medicine and has a low GPA, and therefore only gets into DO school... a low GPA tells me something about their overall motivation (with the exception, of course, of people that had significant instances in their life which caused a lowering of their GPA).


kreno

I know this is an emergency doc, but before you treat my kid who just got in a car accident will you please tell me what you got on your MCAT 10 years ago.....oh you only got a 24.....ok, I'll rush him over to a different hospital...thanks.....

Give me a break, it's folks like you that we should be scared of. You realize once your practicing that it is the person, not the numbers that make a good doctor...and even good doctors will make a mistake sometime. Who knows, you might actually make a mistake someday during your practice.

It's funny how numbers never come up once you've gotten into residency.

As I stated before 65% of D.O.s do allopathic residencies, some at the most prestigious hospitals in the country. Most do not use the particular brand of physical therapy called manipulation but a few do and it seems to work for some patients.

If some D.O.s do not pass their licensing exams they will have to retake them I don't see how that affects me or the patients of D.O.s who did pass their exams. Anyone who thinks there is any difference between a student with a 3.2 and a student with a 3.4 other than perhaps the taking of a few "easy A" courses is mistaken. ;)

Also in a prior message someone derided the admission statistics of the D.O. schools by saying they admit students with an average of only 3.4. That is within a hairs breadth of the admission stats for the Allopathic schools. I believe Boston Universities average gpa is a 3.4.

Originally posted by kreno

AGAIN, WHAT *LIFE* EXPERIENCES DO YOU DO PEOPLE THINK YOU HAVE OVER ALLOPATHS? DO schools "look past the numbers".... you're damn right... if they didn't they'd get scared!

Well, personally, I've been a paramedic for 13 years, worked 911 in the inner-city as well as the suburbs.

I've received letters of commendation from two of the cities I've worked for - one for a house fire where 5 children died, another for a cop who shot himself in front of his family.

I've started a pet therapy program at the hospital I work at.

These are life experiences that could not be completed in a summer break or a year off from school. These are life experiences that were well-received and appreciated by the osteopathic schools I interviewed. It's nice to have one's past appeciated and accepted.

- Tae

okay everyone, deep breaths....i think that sometimes premeds in general have a hard time distancing themselves from the constant competition inherent to the field of medicine. as such, they place an inordinate importance on what other people are doing in comparison to themselves. that said, i really don't understand why everyone gets so hung up on this MD vs DO debate. i am especially disturbed by some of the vitriolic comments made by fellow pre-MD's about DO's, as if their very presence were an insult. everyone has a different value system, and comes to their decisions on their own. i myself knew that i wanted to go to a "top-tier" medical school, but not to impress anyone as an ego boost, but rather, because it is important to me. that said, i also recognize that of the 6 billion people on this planet, no one outside of myself is really going to give a flying f**k that i got into a top 10 medical school or not. furthermore, it's not just a matter of that i would never look down on someone for having to "settle" for a DO, but rather, i don't care one way or another. that is that person's choice, that s/he arrived at on his or her own. i am not going to presume to know that person's life story, or achievements; rather, i would just congratulate them on a job well done. as offensive as some may find the thought of physicians out there who (gasp) got less than a 30 on the mcat, i find equally offensive the VAST number of premeds who are trying to get into medical school simply because their parents expect it. i guess what i want to say is that everyone should just chill and do the best they individually can, and let everyone else worry about themselves. 500 years from now, we'll all be dead anyway, and no one will have given a sh*t if we were an MD or DO...the only person who should care about that is us ourselves.
peace

PS also, for all the harping about lower DO numbers, how come no one ever questions the legitimacy of dentists...after all, their numbers are even lower than DO numbers (i am not at all implying that it should be questioned...dentists rock ):)

why the hell do you people waste your time arguing over this? i've lost count of how many f-ing threads there are on this subject started by some ass that has nothing better to do, and even more idiots that chime in their support for this garbage just to piss off others and/or make themselves feel better. this $hit takes up too much space on the servers, no wonder SDN is so slow now and is in need of upgrades. it's because you guys plaster this crap all over these pages. don't worry either, i won't post on one of these worthless threads anymore to contribute to the problem!

as a future MD it makes me sick that i will someday have you pricks as my colleagues. grow up, get lives, get off your ego trips, and stop being *****wipes.

This could just as easily be a "why are doctors such jerks thread"!

My favorite misconception is that life experiences make a better physician.

Originally posted by kreno

AGAIN, WHAT *LIFE* EXPERIENCES DO YOU DO PEOPLE THINK YOU HAVE OVER ALLOPATHS? DO schools "look past the numbers".... you're damn right... if they didn't they'd get scared!

hmmm....working since 1985, top science grades, top military awards, and frankly I have too much stuff to even waste space on this forum and on medical applications. kreno, inhale deeply, relax and free your mind, the snow may be overwhelming you haus, DO's can't be that bad ;)

I?d like to drill down to the root of what I see is the complaint of the detractors in this thread. And for those who are sick of the negative posts in this area ? I am tired of them too, but I also see it as an opportunity to clarify and perhaps dispel the assumptions and conclusions that are reached by some.

In a nutshell, the idea that higher GPAs and MCAT scores are reliable predictors of the production of better physicians. The difference between allopathic and osteopathic admissions statistics are commonly quoted as a 5 point difference in the MCAT ? 30 vs. 25, and a 0.2 difference in GPA ? 3.7 vs. 3.5. That I won?t argue with, since it does seem that those differences are clear.

What I don?t understand is if that comprises the largest argument against osteopathic admissions, there are certainly some allopathic schools which have similar, if not perhaps lower admissions stats, that I have not seen mentioned anywhere that perhaps fall under the same argument. It is telling, that if this is indeed the basis for the criticism of osteopathic admissions, that similar criticisms haven?t been posted by anyone participating in this thread, against those allopathic institutions. To me, this shows a bias against osteopaths specifically, and a disingenuity in general.

Now, the argument has been forwarded that high MCAT and GPA scores produce superior physicians. I would argue, as many have in this thread, that it really isn?t which school you go to, but where you receive your post-graduate residency training. This I agree with completely.

Anyway, getting back to what I see as the main argument ? higher MCAT and GPA scores produce better physicians or serve as an indicator of more qualified applicants. My opinion is that so long as you make it above a certain cut-off in those scores, and successfully gain entrance to medical school, the rest really is up to you in terms of how well you do in school, and where you go for post-graduate training.

I found a pretty good article about affirmative action ? specifically the admission of URMs that have lower-than-average MCAT and GPA scores. Certainly it could be argued that if raw numbers are the issue, then it isn?t isolated to osteopathic schools ? many allopathic schools admit URMs with lower scores and this subset of students do just fine.

The article addresses URMs with lower-than-average MCAT and GPA scores, but if raw numbers are at the heart of the argument, then the article could easily be used in the context of the discussion at hand.

I don?t expect to change anyone?s mind about their stance on the issue. I would like to think, perhaps, that as future colleagues and scientists, we can at least try to free ourselves from the bias that is formed through the anecdotal. Additionally, we should try not to perpetuate opinions and assumptions passed down from others that were formed during a different era and time, when perhaps things are not as they are now.

- Tae

http://www.tju.edu/jmc/alumni/AB/March2002CampusNews.pdf

?Critics argue that affirmative action is in fact bad for the health of the public because it produces substandard doctors admitted to medical school under substandard qualifications. As one critic put it, ?Minority communities and poor families don?t need black doctors. They need good doctors.?11 But what should be suspect is not the so-called underperformance of minority students as much as the underlying assumptions about the criteria that persistently rank them as substandard.

Currently, grade point average (GPA) and Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) scores are the primary criteria for medical school admission. People assume that strong GPAs and MCAT scores qualify a candidate to be a physician. The truth is that, historically, MCAT scores were not intended to be predictors of who would ultimately make the best doctors. The test was introduced in the 1950s at a time when admission to medical school was not competitive and attrition rates were high due to the presence of underqualified students. The MCAT was used to ensure that medical students were minimally qualified to study medicine.

However, with the rise in competition for medical school admission in the 1960s and 1970s, average MCAT scores rose above the level needed to ?guarantee reasonably successful completion of a course of medical studies.?11 What this means is that even though minority students may score lower on average than white students on the MCAT, they are not ?substandard? in terms of this isolated criterion. The fact is that all physicians must pass the U.S. Medical Licensure Examination (USMLE) to practice medicine. In this context, affirmative action does not create substandard doctors. Rather, it provides minorities with the opportunity to be trained and prepared to be physicians.

Passage of the USMLE is what qualifies them to practice medicine.
Some argue that even if all doctors are at least minimally qualified, why not have the most qualified, meaning those with the highest scores. The fact is that affirmative action students do not underperform relative to non-affirmative action students, either in medical school or in practice. In a 1997 study conducted at the University of California, Davis, School of Medicine, Robert Davidson and Ernest Lewis analyzed the performance of all affirmative action and special consideration admissions students over a period of 20 years. Of all students studied, 20 percent were special consideration admissions, meaning that they were students who had a GPA of less than 3.0 and MCAT scores of less than 10 on each of the 4 subsections of the test. URMs constituted 47.7 percent of special consideration admissions and only 4.0 percent of regular admissions.

In the final analysis, special consideration students did nearly as well as regular admissions students. Ninety-four percent of special consideration students graduated and 97 percent of regular admissions students graduated. Regular admission students were more likely to receive honors, but there was no difference in failure rates between the two groups. Additionally, there were no significant differences in the performance of the students in the two groups in their residency training performance, according to the evaluations of their residency program directors.

Davidson concluded, criteria other than undergraduate grade point average and Medical College Admission Test scores can be used in predicting success in medical school. An admissions process that allows for ethnicity and other special characteristics to be used heavily in admission decisions yields powerful effects on the diversity of the student population and shows no evidence of diluting the quality of the graduates.13 What Davidson showed is that undergraduate GPA and MCAT scores are not, in fact, bottom-line determinants of the quality of graduates produced.

All medical schools employ special admissions criteria related to state residency, alumni connections, postbaccalaureate affiliations, extracurricular interests, or future professional commitments, among others. Such criteria are less frequently challenged as adequate reasons for admitting medical students in their education, produces doctors that underserved patient populations trust, and more equitably reflects the make-up of the population at large; these are compelling reasons to admit applicants who may not be as competitive in terms of raw scores. In the absence of evidence showing that affirmative action special admissions produces doctors less qualified than those admitted by special considerations influenced by any criteria other than race, the assumption that affirmative action results in bad doctors is not well founded.?

bump.


i have an allopathic interview today, so no time to reply... tomorrow :) :clap: :clap: :clap:

Originally posted by kreno
bump.


i have an allopathic interview today, so no time to reply... tomorrow :) :clap: :clap: :clap:

Congrats, Leon! And ... good luck! :)

- Tae

kreno, i suspect you are an immature boy fresh out of college, presuming you are far superior than many other for who knows why.

until you get out and experience the work force, sober up to the realties of medicine and greater society in general, don't judge others.

I have one question directed at Kreno, since you seem to have the biggest mouth. Why the F*uck do you care if some one wants to go to D.O. school? Does it affect you in any way, shape or form? No.... So shut your pie hole. Your ignorance and immaturity show through the facade of intellegence you put forth. You may be able to hide your true colors from your college advisors and even some adcomms, but eventually your attitiude will be your downfall, I promise. Wise up and get a clue, there is alswys someone better than you. You are not a god or even a demi-god, in fact I'd wager to say you are a pimpled face shut -in whose only friend is a text book. Your distain for other not like you is quite simmilar to the hatred behind racisim and sexism . If you were truly entering medicine to care for your fellow man, your attitude would be much different, you would embrace the differences individuals embody. What are you going to do when a patient has a different opinion as to how they want their care handled? Are you going to berate and belittle them. I mean, YOU are the doctor, not THEM! How dare they question your authority, you got a 36(?) on the MCAT and went to an allopathic medical school. This patient should be bowing at your feet, who are they to speak to you as if you were equals.

Get a life.

P.S. PACtoDOC will be a much better doc than you. He already has at least 7 years of clinical work behind him. How many do you have??? None, but you're going to an allopathic school so you will be a better doc. PACtoDOC has seen how many patients, 10,000? more? How many have you seen? Zero, but you will be a better doctor because you are going to an allopathic school. Oviously Kreno will be better 'cuz he's going to an allopathic school...

Originally posted by kreno
CG-RN-MD... you wanna back up the things you say, or add some justification, or just whine? Your response to the post I had which is BOLD in your response has FACTS listed... I don't see you responding to them. I wonder why.

I'm not responding to the facts, because they're just facts. Who cares... anyone can regurgitate information on this forum. What is hilarious to me is your correlation between MCAT scores and who you will let diagnose your kid. I actually laughed out loud by myself in the ER at work when I read that. You have SOOO much to learn about life and the real world. You're gonna find out that you can go around telling everyone how you think things are till you're blue in the face. The fact of the matter is, no one cares who you are or what you say. It's only gonna get worse unless you change your attitude. THOSE are the facts.

Originally posted by macdown
I have one question directed at Kreno, since you seem to have the biggest mouth. Why the F*uck do you care if some one wants to go to D.O. school? Does it affect you in any way, shape or form? No.... So shut your pie hole. Your ignorance and immaturity show through the facade of intellegence you put forth. You may be able to hide your true colors from your college advisors and even some adcomms, but eventually your attitiude will be your downfall, I promise. Wise up and get a clue, there is alswys someone better than you. You are not a god or even a demi-god, in fact I'd wager to say you are a pimpled face shut -in whose only friend is a text book. Your distain for other not like you is quite simmilar to the hatred behind racisim and sexism . If you were truly entering medicine to care for your fellow man, your attitude would be much different, you would embrace the differences individuals embody. What are you going to do when a patient has a different opinion as to how they want their care handled? Are you going to berate and belittle them. I mean, YOU are the doctor, not THEM! How dare they question your authority, you got a 36(?) on the MCAT and went to an allopathic medical school. This patient should be bowing at your feet, who are they to speak to you as if you were equals.

Get a life.

P.S. PACtoDOC will be a much better doc than you. He already has at least 7 years of clinical work behind him. How many do you have??? None, but you're going to an allopathic school so you will be a better doc. PACtoDOC has seen how many patients, 10,000? more? How many have you seen? Zero, but you will be a better doctor because you are going to an allopathic school. Oviously Kreno will be better 'cuz he's going to an allopathic school...

I'm glad to see there are some people who understand how the real world works. And, I love your quote... Dumb and Dumber is the best movie of all time.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

another DO versus MD thread. fantastic http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/aktion070.gif

Originally posted by CG-RN-MD2B
What is hilarious to me is your correlation between MCAT scores and who you will let diagnose your kid.

I'd love to be there to see him ask his kid's (or his) doctor about his/her MCAT score! He might as well ask to see the Dr's med school transcript & letters from his/her residency program director as well. That would certainly be more useful information. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by lattimer13


as a future MD it makes me sick that i will someday have you pricks as my colleagues. grow up, get lives, get off your ego trips, and stop being *****wipes.


Couldnt have said it better myself

Only tangentially relevant, but even though DO's represent 5% of the physician population in the US, they represent 10% of overall healthcare. Even taking into account the fact that more MD's specialize, I'd say this indicates that the whole "public bias" thing is way overplayed. Doctors aren't like grocery stores; people don't generally switch just because they happen to feel the whim. What bias exists is already built into the system, because those people with bias are already seeing MD's if they have a choice (or DO's, if they live in any of the innumerable enclaves in the US where DO's are preferred.)

Nobody took up the international health thing, so I'll take a swipe. Though DO's can't practice in a fair number of countries, it's rarely mentioned that MD's have the devil's time trying to practice there also. Try getting a steady health job in England with either degree. However, there are many, many countries that give DO's full practice rights. Those who do choose to work overseas generally do it for altruistic reasons, and countries in need of altruistic health care aren't in the habit of turning many US-trained physicians away.

Originally posted by kreno
i don't need to justify myself... but, i feel the need. there is no need for any of you to PREJUDGE what you know nothing about. I'm far from your typical applicant. I've worked as an EMT for two years, and a paramedic for one summer. I have lived in Greece for 12 months, in which time I did a thesis project studying their nationalized healthcare system. AT that time I concurrently studied balkan history and several peace-resolution, war-history, and Greek history courses at both the University of Thessaloniki (Aristotle University) and at the American College of Thessaloniki. During this time I had extensive experience volunteering at an non-governmental organization that dealt with aiding illegal refugees which were coming from the middle east and surrounding areas.

I also worked for an Non-governmental Organization in Kosovo for three months dealing with the post-war mental trauma to surrounding youths. Then I worked in another NGO in Serbia, while I concurrently volunteered at the Public Health Institute there for 2 months. I have been a recitation instructor for calculus for 3.5 years, I am a double major - economics and physiology. blah blah blah, did the other stuff... i could have graduated in 3 years, but instead extended my studies and had these so-called "life experiences" which extended my undergraduate years to 5.

with my lower than average top-ten stats... these are the experiences which got me interviews at top schools... certainly not my scores (i'm a white male). therefore, i know, undrestand, and respect the importance of life-experiences.

Oh my God... "Kosovo, Greece, post-war mental trauma, joined green peace and studied retarded amphibians in Ruwanda..."

I'm so glad I'm normal.

You were right. You didn't have to justify yourself. Your previous posts have already disqualified you from earning the interest (much less respect) of any of our readers. Once again, no matter what you say you know or have done... no one cares because of the ignorant posts you've made in the past. If I were you I'd get a new email account and resign under a different screen name and try to resurface as a new member.

Originally posted by CG-RN-MD2B
Oh my God... "Kosovo, Greece, post-war mental trauma, joined green peace and studied retarded amphibians in Ruwanda..."

I'm so glad I'm normal.

You were right. You didn't have to justify yourself. Your previous posts have already disqualified you from earning the interest (much less respect) of any of our readers. Once again, no matter what you say you know or have done... no one cares because of the ignorant posts you've made in the past. If I were you I'd get a new email account and resign under a different screen name and try to resurface as a new member.

This coming from someone who has the name MD2B yet described herself/himself/itself as a "future DO primary care provider".... Kreno has some good points...DO schools have lower MCAT, GPA standards, and USMLE Pass Rates. So? Maybe his conclusions are wrong. Nothing wrong with that, and no reason to crucify him. He has alot of interest and respect from sane readers who appreciate those that attempt to build an argument based on facts; Probably even from those that disagree with his conclusions. You're merely a tool who probably had to re-surface yourself after looking like an idiot on these boards....

This is an argument that is just plain stupid. We will all be doctors (some better then others)...in the end will be able to write the same scripts, treat the same dz, and preform the same surgeries...no matter what your degree says on it.
Yes, there are some bad DOs (I know it's hard to believe) and yes there are some bad MDs (I know that's also hard to believe)....we are all forgetting the key issues, we are trained to provide healthcare to people.
So, instead of fighting over whose penis is bigger, let's remember one thing....it dosen't matter....it's how you use that counts.

Kreno- No one is prejudging you. They are post-judging you for your blatantly ignorant and immature posts. And, no, please don't justify yourself, it makes you sound more like a cocky prick. I worked in Kosovo blah, blah, blah. Self-righteous *****.

Originally posted by kreno
okay, I'M SORRY BUT IF YOU GOT A 24 ON THE MCAT YOU'RE *NOT* GONNA BE THE ONE DIAGNOSING *MY* KID. period.


kreno
Make sure you ask physician his/her Mcat scores forwarded to you before you take your kid to the office and also make sure you do that even if the physician is MD because I know people who are accepted to MD school with 24 on MCAT.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Blitzkrieg
....

Was that a DO site for manipulation of the pubocockus? I've always wondered how they treated that bone...

LOL....I don't know if anybody else remembers this incident, but I was laughing so hard when I read it. I almost snorted....LOL

Just wanted to add my outlook into this:
I personally think all of this boils down to an ego problem. It seems to me that *some* MD applicants think that their higher MCAT scores were indicative of their "dedication and hard work" thus implying that pre-DO people were lazy and not motivated enough to do the hard work and get the above 24 averages that DO schools seem to have. I just wanted to call BS on that because as an MD applicant, I have had to work VERY hard for my 27....perhaps harder than somebody who was inherently smarter/faster reader than me and got a 35. To say that the MD programs are superior simply because their averages are higher, is like looking into a well and trying to guage it's depth. We don't know the situations surrounding each DO applicant. Somebody mentioned that DO's tend to be more "well rounded" applicants because they have families, sometimes a career change, and sometimes even kids! I think that pulling off college with a family is a huge feat, don't you? Try going to college when you know that you have to come home to a husband and kids....then balance all the grocery shopping, paying the bills, putting the kids to bed (if you were fortunate to come home early enough from the library). Now, try to do all that while studying for the MCAT and doing applications. If it is true that a lot of the DO applicants have "lives" outside of school, it is also true that they require superior organizational skills to pull it off. How many of the MD applicants do you know of that do all that? Okay, I am one of them, but I hardly have the peer support I need because most of the MD applicants I am competing with are young twenty-ish people without families to come home to and take care of. Tomorrow, if my husband and I don't work, we don't eat! If I don't get into medical school, I have to find a 9-5 job like I had been doing for so long and hated. It is tough being an MD applicant out there and competing with the so called "higher standards." I can see why people like going the DO route--aside from it's philosophy, DO schools indeed do seem to care about external factors affecting the applicants GPA/MCAT. Since most of their applicants are of a higher age, they KNOW that school is *not* the only priority in their life, but they indeed do have to balance it with the other priorities in their lives.

However, the "ego problem" goes both ways. Just as some of the MD applicants are trying to claim that higher GPA and scores = better doctor, the DO's are claiming that they are more "well rounded, etc etc. I buy both the arguements, and realize that each is not exclusive of each other. Is it not possible to have MD applicants that are intelligent, have superior clinical skills, and also are well rounded? I know a few people in this category IRL. Similarly, is it not possible to have DO's that are well rounded, have superior clinical skills and (God forbid) INTELLIGENT??? I have two friends both in DO programs--one got into MD schools (top notch, let me tell ya) with her MCAT's in mid-30's. She realized that her calling was DO, not MD and decided to turn down the multiple offers she had to re-apply again next year into DO programs. Another friend who has an even higher MCAT score than her, done neuro. research, and almost a 4.0 GPA also felt very turned off with the MD philosophy and decided to go the DO route. BOTH, were MCAT Profs so that dispels some myths about DO's not having the superior intelligence that MD's do. There are some very intelligent DO's out there who can hold their own in any MD surgery residency, just as there are MD's that may not be able to carry the burden of the "MD" behind their name.

Note: The above examples are only subjective, and while I realize that two examples don't make a trend, I am simply using them to make my point about NOT generalizing about either program.

Overall, what we need to realize is that providing healthcare is a TEAM effort. We have to collectively decide what is best for our patients--if one tool does'nt work, try another. Try a third. Do whatever it takes to cure/give comfort to the patient because that is the only thing that matters to him/her when they walk into your office. The last few times that you were ill and had to visit the ER, did you ever stop to think if you're being treated by "student MDs?" Did that scare you? You had faith that whatever medical education they have received, is good enough to be able to cure your problem. Similarly, when is the last time that you went into a doc's office and tried to see if s/he had an "MD" or "DO" behind his name? When you are going to be in surgery with your counterparts next to you dressed in gowns and masks, you are not going to see the "MD" or "DO" behind their name. You are going to know that DOCTOR XYZ is standing next to you with his/her set of tools ready to give his/her best and heal this patient just as well as you will. I RE-EMPHASIZE: HEALTHCARE IS A TEAM EFFORT. We have to learn to live and act accordingly, because learning to work with our own set of tools and others is what will make us good doctors and see the results we hope to see in our patients.

Tweetie

Originally posted by Blitzkrieg
This coming from someone who has the name MD2B yet described herself/himself/itself as a "future DO primary care provider".... Kreno has some good points...DO schools have lower MCAT, GPA standards, and USMLE Pass Rates. So? Maybe his conclusions are wrong. Nothing wrong with that, and no reason to crucify him. He has alot of interest and respect from sane readers who appreciate those that attempt to build an argument based on facts; Probably even from those that disagree with his conclusions. You're merely a tool who probably had to re-surface yourself after looking like an idiot on these boards....

We already discussed the insignificance of a screen name dude. And, wow, where did you come up with the creativity of claiming I had to re-surface? Oh, yeah, from my post about kreno.

Fact is, yes, they have lower standards as far as GPA and MCAT scores are concerned. But who gives a f*ck about those scores??? Yes, I know, you think I'm one of those borderline candidates. WRONG. I have numbers that would take me anywhere. That's not the point. The point is, anyone can get a 4.0 in college. It's all about work ethic. MCAT probably is a little more of an indicator of ability to think (but the average intelligence individual can take prep courses and score decently on it).

Posts about scores determining career abilities and outcomes is just plain dumb. "Well, these med schools require an average of 3.7 with a blah blah blah f*cking blah" Who gives a sh*t. It really tells me and everyone else the level of intelligence we're dealing with in blitz and kreno.

Guess what??? The minimum GPA you must have to apply to Nurse practitioner school is 0.5 higher than the minimum GPA at many medical schools. Does that mean the NPs are smarter or better than the physicians??? Of course not.

And, I may or may not become a primary care DO, or a cardiothoraic surgeon MD. I'm going to be a physician, period.

Its unclear why there are DOs who think they should be doing allopathic surgery residencies. Seems to me that it goes against the basic philosophy of osteopathy. Obviously surgery residencies will fill their manpower needs with warm bodies, so there will be an occasional DO, but thankfully not at my hospital. Osteopaths have a clear role in primary care, and they're well suited for that. Two of my college friends went to DO school because they didn't get an MD acceptance, but they both wanted to do primary care. Generally I don't think of DOs as being MD rejects, I assume that they believe in the core tenets of osteopathy and want to use those practices to help patients. Of course then I see a DO in a surgery or radiology residency and of course those ppl just went into DO school when b/c they couldn't get into MD. I guess in the end its not much of an issue, since there will always be a bias against the field in mainstream allopathic medicine.

MCAT scores and GPAs have jack sh*t to do with a person's competence as a doctor. All MCATs test is someone's ability to fill in bubble sheets. GPAs reflect an enourmous amount of coursework, a couple years of which might have been totally unfocused before someone figured it out and got it together. If these numbers are so important, are grades in med school also vital? NO! They're one of the LAST things residencies look at unless you apply to something super-specialaized. Is the person who got a C in micro a better doctor than the one who got an A? No, and in fact, most doctors will tell you it's usually the other way around. Which is also generalizing, but the point is, saying DOs are second-rate just because their schools have lower scores is the biggest bunch of crap. :rolleyes:

Now would I want to get surgery from the most qualified person around? Sure. But our country is so miserably short on primary care people that we should be thanking those who choose to go to DO school (btw, I'm a 2nd yr MD student). Along with those who choose to become PAs and NPs. Did you know that out of the top 10 or so countries in health care, we spend more on it, are more specialized, and _have shorter life spans and higher infant mortality_!!! Now, why could that be?

Actually, the only portion of the MCAT found to correlate with subsequent clinical performance is the verbal score. Weak association, but clinically significant.

Your post brings up some excellent points that I hadn't thought about before.

Very insightful. :cool:

Originally posted by FireAway
Its unclear why there are DOs who think they should be doing allopathic surgery residencies. Seems to me that it goes against the basic philosophy of osteopathy. Obviously surgery residencies will fill their manpower needs with warm bodies, so there will be an occasional DO, but thankfully not at my hospital. Osteopaths have a clear role in primary care, and they're well suited for that. Two of my college friends went to DO school because they didn't get an MD acceptance, but they both wanted to do primary care. Generally I don't think of DOs as being MD rejects, I assume that they believe in the core tenets of osteopathy and want to use those practices to help patients. Of course then I see a DO in a surgery or radiology residency and of course those ppl just went into DO school when b/c they couldn't get into MD. I guess in the end its not much of an issue, since there will always be a bias against the field in mainstream allopathic medicine.

Originally posted by womansurg
Actually, the only portion of the MCAT found to correlate with subsequent clinical performance is the verbal score. Weak association, but clinically significant.

how's "clinical performance" defined?

Originally posted by CG-RN-MD2B
Guess what??? The minimum GPA you must have to apply to Nurse practitioner school is 0.5 higher than the minimum GPA at many medical schools.


http://nurseweb.ucsf.edu/www/fnp02-students.htm
Average GPA of incoming students: 3.24

http://sls.downstate.edu/admissions/nursing/applyPRA.html
A minimum 3.0 cumulative grade point average (GPA) on a 4.0 scale is preferred.



Hmm...

This is a little off-subject, but I think GPA's can be misleading. A 3.5 at a Community college is not the same as a 3.5 at a State school, which is not the same as a 3.5 at a competitive Private school.

Standardized tests should be utilized more often because of this. Everyone takes the same test and is compared to everyone else.

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
http://nurseweb.ucsf.edu/www/fnp02-students.htm
Average GPA of incoming students: 3.24

http://sls.downstate.edu/admissions/nursing/applyPRA.html
A minimum 3.0 cumulative grade point average (GPA) on a 4.0 scale is preferred.



Hmm...

Originally posted by koolkao
how's "clinical performance" defined? The study I saw referenced looked at grades, evaluations, and estimations of performance during clinical years 3 and 4 of medical school.

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
http://nurseweb.ucsf.edu/www/fnp02-students.htm
Average GPA of incoming students: 3.24

http://sls.downstate.edu/admissions/nursing/applyPRA.html
A minimum 3.0 cumulative grade point average (GPA) on a 4.0 scale is preferred.



Hmm...

"Hmmm" Talk about middle of the road. What's your point?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kreno
[B]i don't need to justify myself... but, i feel the need.

Having a hard time making up your mind?

A doctor without an inkling of humility...i.e. looking down on another profession, an MD looking down on DO or vice versa, to me, is no doctor at all. If I were the patient, I will make sure I will not see this indivicual. A mistake made due to one being an alleged incompetent doctor is just as the same as a mistake made by someone who is too prideful of their title.

On an individual basis, I would agree that GPAs and MCATs don't correlate with abilities as a doctor. However, when the entire class of the average DO school has such significantly lower scores as a comparable MD school, that says alot.

I just have a real problem with people who claim that DO training is equivalent. It simply isn't, the training is based in hospitals that have skewed and small patient bases, its impossible to compare a place like Kirksville to Washington U or even SLU for that matter. Furthermore, if its really "the same", then why not go to MD school so you don't have to defend your degree for the rest of your career? I have no problem with people who truly believe in the core tenets of osteopathy and wish to use them in a primary care practice, but its inappropriate to assume that DO training is equivalent and therefore you should be able to do anything specialized, especially surgery. Frankly if you were a US allopathic MD reject interested in a specialty, you'd be better off actually getting the MD at an offshore med school. At least then you'd have an MD, and few ppl would know the difference, whereas DOs stick out like ugly thumbs at the major medical centers.

The growing number of DO schools is driven by the fact that higher education is truly a business, and there's big $$ to be made in providing healthcare. Those things coupled with the fact that there are tons and tons of people who really want to be a "doctor" and are willing to pay big $$ when they get rejected by MD school are fueling the growth in the number of DO schools over the past 20 years. And of course the AOA loves to see this kind of expansion, its their way of trying to breed themselves into the mainstream or majority. Sort of like some churches! Its all economics baby.

well said!!

Originally posted by kreno
i don't want someone who scored 24 on the mcat diagnosing me, because in my opinion, that score says something about their innate ability.

The definition of innate is 'in born' or 'born with' ...

I'd argue that few people, if anyone can score well on the MCAT with 'innate' ability.

And if your MCAT score is a reflection of some 'innate ability', then the score should not vary no matter how much you study, because you were born with the skill. It's not something you learn.

I don't think 'innate' was the word you were looking for.

- Tae

Originally posted by FireAway

I just have a real problem with people who claim that DO training is equivalent. It simply isn't, the training is based in hospitals that have skewed and small patient bases, its impossible to compare a place like Kirksville to Washington U or even SLU for that matter.


Gotta love people who make statements w/o justification. Let's assume that the first two years are identical w/ the exception of OMM.

Here is a small sampling of hospitals where DO students rotate though.

PCOM - Philadelphia
Christiana Care
Crozer Keystone
Albert Einstein Medical Center
Frankford
MCP
Pennsylvania Hospital
Temple University - Episcopal
UPMC - Horizon System

NYCOM - New York
Good Samaritan Medical Center
St. Barnabas Hospital
Maimonides Medical Center
Nassau University Medical Center
St. Clair's Hospital & Health Center
Lutheran Medical Center

NSUCOM - Ft. Lauderdale
Memorial Regional
Northwest Medical Center
Mount Sinai - Dade County
Miami Heart - Dade County
Palmetto
Parkway Medical Center
Kendall Medical Center

KCOM - Kirsville, MO
Des Peres Hospital
Forest Park Medical Center
Northeast Regional Medical Center
St. Michael's Hospital (Newark, NJ)
Northside Hospital & Heart Institute (St. Petersburg, FL)

Also, DO students can do electives at UCSF, Mayo, WashU, etc.
It all depends on the student.

Before you make a blanket generalization (based on nothing except what you read here on SDN), make sure you do a little background research.

One genuine criticism, I think, has to do with the consistency and reproducibility of the training. Sure, folks from KCOM can rotate at Northside in Florida, but only a few do. At WashU, however, the entire student body spends some good portion of their core training at the parent institutions - facilities which are centered around education and training of physicians. There, students are gauged against well defined standards for performance, by personnel who are committed to medical education. If a student is failing to meet performance criteria, it is recognized and addressed.

This stands in sharp contradistinction to the training our local osteopaths provide. Many of the students who choose to stay locally for their rotations accept substandard positions, simply because they don't want to travel. One example: a core OB/Gyn rotation during which the student never touched or interviewed a patient. Never saw a patient alone, never did an H&P, never did a single pelvic exam. This preceptor believes that students should learn only by observation, and he is one of the core instructors for this program. These students are subsequently inadequately trained. Period. You simply cannot argue otherwise. On many rottions I've seen, students who show no initiative are simply allowed to shadow. There are no expections to read, learn, or perform. They are 'passed' without demonstrating any core capabilities.

Sure, a handful of students travel the two hours to rotate at the local U, and those students get good training. But, as a lot of us have experienced, with an osteopathic trained physician, you're never sure what their background is.

Kreno-

I am a female with a 22 MCAT and a 3.44 GPA. Guess I have no right to be an Osteopathic physician then??

I'm not one to get involved in debates on these posts but your attitude is disturbing. I myself would rather be treated by a mature physician who possibly did not have brillant scores, grades, whatever...than be treated by someone so filled with ignorance such as yourself.

Just my 2 cents

As a future osteopathic physician and after reading countless opinions like those reflected in in preceding posts, I recognize that there will always be someone who doubts my capabilities based on prejudice toward my degree and background.

Truth is, I chose the DO route based on the philosophy and the practice of OMT. I also chose this route because I didn't realize such negativity toward DO's was so pervasive (at least among pre-meds, med students, and anonymous SDN posters) as I had only encountered residents and staff physicians who do not share the same opinion. And, I chose to enter the osteopathic field based on my age and academic performance to date. Though my academics were on par with the incoming osteopathic averages, I do not feel that I would have been unable to matriculate into an MD program. Rather, I felt my career interests would be better served in a DO program.

At this point of my training/education, I do not feel that it is lacking from that of my allopathic counterparts. My class isn't being allowed to slack any more than any other medical student in the country and expectations are high about our performance both in class and on the boards. Perhaps based on my average gpa prior to matriculation, I am working very hard to maintain decent grades in my first year. But, I have accomplished that as have my classmates. And, many of them are excelling in such a way that I believe their scores would exceed many allopathic students.

I have prior medical experience in which I was responsible for people's lives and worked autonomously. And I was successful in that career because I always strive to provide the highest quality care I can for my patients.

I know, in the future, that it is that work ethic which will make me a good doctor (maybe even great). And for all those people who doubt my abilities because I'm a DO, well, I can only hope to change people's opinions by being a competent, informed, and capable physician. And, for those people who refuse to recognize me as an equal, I want you to know that I will never feel like a "second class" or "inadequate" physician because you have prejudices.

The fact is that DO's are representing a larger percentage of practicing physicians every year. And, despite differences touted by the AOA and random individuals, we don't differ so much from MD's after all.

See you on rounds! (in a few years, that is...) ;)

Sincerely,
Missy
NSUCOM class of 2006

Man, I just stumbled upon this thread. I can now say I've never been so happy to be an osteopathic medical student. What a bunch of little whiners. Are you all honestly that threatened by osteopathic medicine that you form these opinions based on zero experience on a grand scale or fact? For all you premeds out there who dont even own a college degree yet and now claim to have advanced training in not only medicine, but health policy and administration, I ask you to reconsider your careers or quickly find an open mind. I hope you all judge your patients someday as quickly as you've judged D.O.s.

Regarding the numbers, as I've said in other posts, the bell curves are more overlapping now then they've ever been before. The middle 50% of matriculating students at either school are statistically not that different. It's the outliers, the upper Ivies and the few D.O. schools who cater to rural and underserved populations that throw the scales to the direction they are currently in. Because there's only 20 D.O. schools, a few which dont rely as heavily on mcat and gpas for admission standards will greatly affect the group. Honestly, I dont care about that anyway, as you will all see, MCATS are useless in med school. You will never be asked again what your MCAT score was. They supposedly have a slight correlation to board scores, although I've never seen the data, but those non-statistically significant results have never been reproduced anyway.

Now, regarding board scores. Yes, D.O.s do worse on Step I of the USMLE. That's because they're not trained for the USMLE!!! If MD students took the COMLEX Step I, I guarantee they'd have even lower pass rates! The two tests do not test the same things! The COMLEX I is more clinically oriented while the USMLE I is more basic science oriented. As any D.O. student will tell you, you cannot study for the COMLEX and think you are also studying for the USMLE. They're not the same test!

As far as clinical training, there are some D.O, schools with less than stellar clerkships, just as there are MD programs with less than stellar clerkships. However, likewise, there's also some really great rotations, for D.O. or M.D. I go to NYCOM and we rotate through some of the same hospitals, shoulder to shoulder, as students from NYU, Cornell, Stonybrook and Downstate. Half of our clinical faculty in second year is adjunct at NYU, Stonybrook or Downstate! To say a D.O. student does not have the same clinical exposure doesnt hold water with me.

Anyway, flame away at will. If this makes you feel better, good for you. Everybody looks down on someone else, and right now I'm not only looking down at you, but laughing my ***** off! You all have alot to learn. If anyone wants to debate, fire at will.

Originally posted by kreno
Hey Pacman, don't be so patronizing.... that's not a good quality in a physician

okay, a couple things. first, the other day me listing some of the things I said was just done to prove a point - you shouldn't prejudge someone... however, in retrospect, i can see how it looked (over a message board) cheesy... so i didn't mean for it to be like that.

i make my personal opinion on DO's from personal experience working with them professionally, and interacting with DO students at my school, hearing comments by PhD's at my school, etc. Overall, the kids at the michigan state DO school are just NOT as dynamic as the MD students at MSU.. period. You can't argue with me, it's my opinion, based on lots of experience. I know *IDIOTS* that got into the DO school at MSU... i'm sorry, they just should not be physicians.... freaking idiots... girls with 22 mcats and a 3.4 majoring in phychology who are going to eventually going to be responsible for someone's life. sorry, that just doesn't cut it for me...

No one things GPA+MCAT = Good doctor. We've already covered this 3854 times.

However, MCAT verbal and essay sections have correlations to clinical performance, and the physics/bio also have correlates to performance in medical school classes.

You're also forgetting that this *IS* important for those medical schools that have substancial research...

Lastly, again, I just wanted to emphasize how annoyed I am at the "osteopath schools look past the grades" BS. That is inferring that allopathic schools somehow don't look at things other than grades... which is totally not my experience at the allopathic schools i've interviewed at.

In any regard, doesn't matter... DO's are second class doctors... if they weren't, your average person would know what it stood for, and DO's themselves wouldn't prefer to have their name tags say "Dr. John smith" rather than "John Smith, DO" and DO schools would generate research and their admissions criteria would be more selective (I guarantee if I applied to ten random allopathic schools and 10 random DO schools i'd get into a *LOT* more DO schools).

Again, being a physician entails so many qualities... and you don't need to be a 378437 mcat scorer to be a good doctor... but you have to draw the line somewhere, and in my opinion... i don't want someone who scored 24 on the mcat diagnosing me, because in my opinion, that score says something about their innate ability. If you got a 24, then you are probably gifted in another type of quality which would suit a career other than medicine...

Just goes to show, folks, that you can't talk to some people. I don't know if he was molested or forced to eat his own sh*t or something, but he just won't listen to people who obviously have more experience (in healthcare AND life). Dude, you'll learn so much more if you shut the f*ck up and listen to other people and open your small mind.

I work in a small community with 5 DOs and 1 MD. They are all equal in the eyes of each other, the community, and me. I see them do the same stuff, day in and day out.

I'm also friends with the smartest person I've ever met (he was a dr. by age 22). He has told me on several occasions that MD=DO, they're just pieces of paper. What you do with the piece of paper is what matters.

Generalizations are expected from immature kids. But you've had more than a fair chance to listen to reason.

I think there's a little more to your posts than just trying to prove a point. I think you're just saying what you know will piss people off to get a "rise" out of the whole thing.

Originally posted by oceandocDO


Regarding the numbers, as I've said in other posts, the bell curves are more overlapping now then they've ever been before. The middle 50% of matriculating students at either school are statistically not that different. It's the outliers, the upper Ivies and the few D.O. schools who cater to rural and underserved populations that throw the scales to the direction they are currently in. Because there's only 20 D.O. schools, a few which dont rely as heavily on mcat and gpas for admission standards will greatly affect the group. Honestly, I dont care about that anyway, as you will all see, MCATS are useless in med school. You will never be asked again what your MCAT score was. They supposedly have a slight correlation to board scores, although I've never seen the data, but those non-statistically significant results have never been reproduced anyway.



Ive always wondered why Osteopathic schools just dont raise their standards so all this bs between the Osteopaths and Allopaths would go away. The more suspect Osteopathic school kinda of smacks of the degree diplomas in Carribean like Ross that charge up the wazoo.

Why are DO's a huge percentage of our military physicians?

General Tommy Franks' personal physician is a D.O. as was the past surgeon general of the army.

Man, I hope we can still win the war ;)

The more suspect Osteopathic school kinda of smacks of the degree diplomas in Carribean like Ross that charge up the wazoo.

Huh? English? Didnt get a 13 on verbal, did ya? ;) j/k

I've been reading some of the posts in this thread and there seems to be quite a bit of anger coming from both sides. It is amazing to find such feelings between people who are going to work together in the future.
Why must we focus so much on a degree? In essence, they are very similar, and just because one of them is the norm doesn't mean it is going to be better. The degree you want to pursue is your choice and that is what is best for you. Yes, there may be pluses to an MD degree, but there sure are some to the DO as well.
It's interesing how MD's say that DO's take that route because they could not get into MD school. But DO's can also say that MD's go to MD school for the "name." We shouldn't point at others and assume why they choose a certain degree or school.
We should be in this together with high/low MCAT's and GPA's. After all, both MD and DO schools have a range of acceptance scores. And most importantly, DO's and MD's work together in the medical field and we should all respect each others decisions.

this thread is so hilarious

Originally posted by PACtoDOC

And lastly, if DO schools weeded out the few older non-traditional students, or the minority students, their entrance standards might be more on par with MD programs.

No, if DO schools weeded out the people with low MCAT scores and GPAs, they'd be empty. Not everyone can be above average. There aren't enough above average students to go around, and you are deluding yourself if you think DO schools could fill their classes with the choice students even if they wanted to. Same goes for lesser-regarded MD schools. The filling of medical school classes is a trickle-down process, whether we'd like to think of it that way or not.

I agree that life experience should carry weight in med school admissions, but if you think working for a few years makes up for 3-4 standard deviations on the MCAT, I think you're crazy.

I haven't visited any DO schools, but I can tell you that from the MD programs I've visited so far, I found the students more engaging at the more reputable schools, the ones with higher average MCATs/GPAs. I'd have to assume this trend would continue down to DO schools, unless they somehow found amazingly intelligent students with terrible academic records to fill their classes with.

Wrigley

Actually, from my experiences (having friends at Hopkins, HMS, Yale, Penn) and interviewing at DO schools (PCOM, NSUCOM, UNECOM, etc) - all the students and faculty were interesting, engaging, fun to be with, and smart. They all had diverse interests.

Since when do MD schools have monopoly on intelligence, coolness, etc. In fact, when talking to my MD friends at top-ranked schools, they all congratulated me on my choice of PCOM. Not one of them gave me that "Why DO look."

So to Kreno, since you are a complete stranger with a biased perspective, I'm not going to take your advice and attend an MD school in lieu of a DO school based solely on your friend's experience.

Maybe it's the anonymous nature of this board - but somehow, people are extremely paranoid here. Ivy League students do not look down upon private schools, and private schools do not look down upon state schools, and state schools do not look down upon DO schools.

I, myself an ivy league undergrad, do not look down upon Drexel - next door. Nor do I look down upon Chicago, or Temple, or Penn State. I know there's more to people than just SATs, class ranks, activities, etc. Just as there is more to being a doctors than MCATs, science GPAs, activities.

To make a generalization about DOs based on average MCAT/GPA is similar to making generalization about YOUR undergrad based on SAT/GPA. Am I to assume that students at GWU undergrads are second-class college students based on SAT/GPA? Or Temple?

The only students whom I would consider as second class college students are Princeton undergrads :)


All I ask is that you stop generalizing the entire DO profession and look at the individual. There are idiots at MD schools, such as there are idiots in DO schools. However, when all said and done, we are all SMALL-SELECT group.

Contrary to popular belief, not all applicants get accpeted to DO schools. PCOM receives around 4,000 applications a year, interview 600-800, accepts around 300-400, for a matriculating class size of around 250.

Anyway, just my input

Wrigley.... you're friggin hillarious my friend. Your parents must be proud. Hope you got more outta that 30k at one of the most over-rated Uni's in the country than the dribble you put forth here.

I dont even know you, but you remind me of that dorky guy from Patch Adams who was Patch's roomie.

:clap: Flex some more for us! Look at those biceps!

:clap: :D

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Wrigley.... you're friggin hillarious my friend. Your parents must be proud. Hope you got more outta that 30k at one of the most over-rated Uni's in the country than the dribble you put forth here.

I dont even know you, but you remind me of that dorky guy from Patch Adams who was Patch's roomie.

:clap: Flex some more for us! Look at those biceps!

:clap: :D
Ocean

Glad to see you join us in our discussion, but it's not cool to call a respected Univ. over-rated. The guy might come back and ask what school did you go to, since you seem to be so bright.:D

Well, since I don't want to get into an exciting anonymous flame war, I'll just assume Patch's roommate is a highly intelligent med student with a degree from a prestigious undergraduate institution who gets all the ladies with his wit, charm and ruggedly handsome good looks. I'll also assume he's conceited. Very conceited.

Wrigley

since I don't want to get into an exciting anonymous flame war

Couldve fooled me with your above contribution. Was that not meant to flame? Brillance, pure brillance.

Ocean,

I was thanking you for your generous compliment.

But back to the topic at hand- why don't you enlighten us with the details of the decision-making process you went through when you chose to go to your medical school? Many of the posters in the pre-allopathic board, myself included, don't know much about most osteopathic institutions. We'd be interested in what drove you to attend this institution, which programs you think compare favorably to it, and which other schools you were deciding between when you made your choice.


Wrigley

Originally posted by Wrigleyville
Ocean,

I was thanking you for your generous compliment.

But back to the topic at hand- why don't you enlighten us with the details of the decision-making process you went through when you chose to go to your medical school? Many of the posters in the pre-allopathic board, myself included, don't know much about most osteopathic institutions. We'd be interested in what drove you to attend this institution, which programs you think compare favorably to it, and which other schools you were deciding between when you made your choice.


Wrigley
I would like to know too. Please do tell.

Why are DO's a huge percentage of our military physicians?

I can't believe you have to ask. Again, economics! DO schools are incredibly expensive, so many of these students opt for military scholarships.

And to whoever posted the list of hospitals that DOs rotate thru, you proved my point exactly, just with more words. 98% of those hospitals listed are nothings. That wasn't exactly a list of the who's who in medicine, and nevermind that but they aren't even the best in their own regions.

Its all economics folks. As I said before, the AOA is just trying to breed itself into the medical culture, and these osteopath schools that pop up overnight are just there to cash in on all the people who couldn't get into allopathic schools.

Wrigley,

I wasnt quite complementing you, so I'm sorry if I mislead ;)

Regarding my decision to attend a D.O. institution, in the sake of time and a psychiatry exam upcoming, I'll copy/paraphrase a post below from an eerily similar correspondance Deuce 007 and I had a few days past in another thread. It's long, I warn you, but explains my experience in this process, as you "asked".

A preface, not all D.O. students look at osteopathic medicine as a back up. While many do, there are some who are steered into the field by some personal experience and others who want to learn OMM and still others who are wooed by the "philosophy". The decision I made goes deeper than wanting to learn OMM. I actually spend alot of time these days trying to disprove OMM to myself, and that's how science works. I've found OMM to be physical therapy, nothing more, nothing less. However, whether or not all of OMM is efficacious, and beyond the benefits of 200+ more hours of anatomy, physiology and biomechanics reinforcement, it urges a medical student to open their mind to other possibilities of healing and to develop critical thinking skills in order to prove or disprove a theory. From my experience, the M.D. model doesnt allow, or at least encourage, this thought process, at least without basing it on p and t values. From a very broad perspective, M.D.s are more closed-minded doctors, often suffering from tunnel vision. Your very post above proves that. They seem to automatically dispute anything they're told to dispute or anything with the words "alternative or complimentary" on it, yet their patients don't. Whether or not these alternative treatments work, D.O.s, as a byproduct of their education model, are usually more willing to at least investigate and learn about the treatment while not refuting it outright, because once again, patients dont. Last year in the U.S., more people purchased a herbal drug than purchased a prescription drug. This tells you that the patient population is drifting away from the traditional tide of medicine to one including more self-responsibility of health and experimentation. They now need to demand their physicians are trained in these alternative therapies, not so much as to offer them, but at least to understand how these alternative therapies interact with traditional modalities... whether or not the alternative method has been proven in JAMA.

Before you label me as a tree-hugging liberal who has his herbs lined up in the medicine cabinet, please believe I am not. I am about as conservative as they come. I was first urged into osteopathic medicine about 4 years ago by a friend of my family, an MD actually. He's a soon-to-be General, is a director of trauma for the Army in the Southeastern Asian theatre, and was just accepted to the astronaut class of 2008. He relayed the same argument to me that I just relayed to you. He doesnt have anything against MDs or their philosophy, he's ivy league trained. He just sees the direction the pulse of medicine is going over the next 20 years and he's witnessed D.O.s to have just as much knowledge in the traditional sense, plus a bit of a refreshingly different outlook on life. His analogy was "Pizza is good, but pizza with pepperoni is even better". D.O.s have all the ingedients in quality, now they just need the quantity. This will happen, albeit slowly. The AOA is organized, much more so than the AMA if one analyzes the two groups closely, and they're hell bent on providing those numbers over the next 20 years. D.O.s will never outnumber MDs, but IMO, D.O.s will offer the U.S. more of a judicious system of checks and balances in efficient and effective healthcare implementation. They apparently already have by the fierce hatred and disregard you seem to have for the profession, so I guess we're doing our jobs. The MD world honestly does seem very threatened by a group of people they otherwise label as less intelligent and otherwise inferior. If they didnt feel this way, why would this thread have grown so much so fast with such fervor in the language?

Anyway, this dissertation is the reason why, since given the choice, I gladly traded off having to explain what a D.O. means for, IMO, a more complete training and the ability to practice medicine how I want to practice it. Granted I could have practiced "like a D.O." as an MD, but it was the educational model I was really after. I wasnt in it for the glamour. After the training many docs and patients alike dont notice a difference between D.O.s and M.D.s practice styles. But, listen if you will to this analogy which summarizes how I have come to understand it all: 2 identical neighboring houses are built in slightly different ways, held together with different mortar and with nails in different places. The furniture is arranged differently on the inside and each has owner his own taste. Yet, both will equally stand up to the elements. Over time, the neighbors learn from each other, come to appreciate the other's style, and borrow tools. As time progresses the two styles begin to merge, yet there will always be some competition to see who has the nicer lawn and smarter kids. However, from afar, to a stranger, the two houses look remarkably similar...yet to the owners they still look somewhat different.

Some of the above may have been broad generalizations, and for that I apologize, but that's how people often chose a doctor, or a medical school for that matter.

Anyway, if you've read this far I applaud you. One thing I've definitely learned thus far is to worry about yourself and not as much about what the other guy is doing, for your success as a physician is not determined by your ability to discount his healing philosophy, it's determined by yours.

Enough for now. Sorry again for the length. Fire back at will.

Originally posted by FireAway
I can't believe you have to ask. Again, economics! DO schools are incredibly expensive, so many of these students opt for military scholarships.

And to whoever posted the list of hospitals that DOs rotate thru, you proved my point exactly, just with more words. 98% of those hospitals listed are nothings. That wasn't exactly a list of the who's who in medicine, and nevermind that but they aren't even the best in their own regions.


Hmm

first point
Most DO schools are private institutions. And the tuition is comparable to MD private institutions. The state-affliated institutions (MSU, OSU, UMDNJ) have in-state tuitions comparable to in-state tuitions at other state schools.
But since you guys like numbers, here are some facts and figures
UMDNJ - School of Osteopathic Medicine
Tuition: $17,362 in-state; $27,169 out-of-state
Oklahoma State University-College of Osteopathic Medicine
Tuition: $11,557 in-state; $30,144 out-of-state
Michigan State University - College of Osteopathic Medicine
Tuition: $17,448 in-state; $37,248 out-of-state
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine (private)
Tuition: $28,500
Nova Southeastern University - College of Osteopathic Medicine (private)
Tuition: $21,245 for Florida residents; $26,395 for out-of-state students

MD schools
University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine (private)
Tuition - $33,316
UMDNJ - New Jersey Medical
Tuition: $$18,143 in-state; $$28,392 out-of-state
Michigan State University - College of Human Medicine
Tuition: $19,000 in-state; $40,000 out-of-state
Finch University - Chicago Medical School (private)
Tuition: $35,673
Jefferson Medical College (private)
Tuition: $31,958
New York Medical College (private)
Tuition: $32,730

Information about tuitions from DO obtain from AACOM website. Information about tuitions from MD schools obtain from their respective websites.

OK - now the second part. You claim that "98% of those hospitals listed are nothings." I don't know where you get your facts (I'm guessing you just pull them out of thin air), but the hospitals listed, MD students also rotate through them also. WHAT A SHOCK!!!
I'm most familar with Philadelphia, so ...

Christiana Care - Jefferson Medical
Crozer Keystone - Jefferson, Temple, Penn, Drexel, etc.
Albert Einstein Medical Center - Temple, Jefferson
Frankford - Temple
MCP - Drexel MCP/Hahnemann
Pennsylvania Hospital - University of Pennsylvania
Temple University - Episcopal - Temple
UPMC - Horizon System - University of Pittsburgh


What's the point of this posting? Don't confuse facts w/ belief. Just because you believe DO schools are more expensive doesn't mean it's true. Just because you believe that DO students rotate through no-name rural "so-called hospitals" doesn't mean it is true.

You can cite all the statistics you want about low GPA and low MCAT, but don't go stating stuff that you have no expertise in and have no facts to support your argument. Ironic how you will jump on OMM because it lacks proof (and I agree, it needs more studies), but then make statements and conclusions without any factual basis.

Sincerely,

your below-average second class pre-DO student

Ocean-

I guess my beef with the philosophy of medicine that you describe above is that it is, to a certain extent, open to quackery. Without debating the merits of OMM or herbal remedies, I'd just say that modern medicine as an art is not far removed from leeches and patent medicines. Medical doctors, our colleagues that came before us, have worked hard to advance medicine as a science, to pull it out of the realm of treatments based on speculation and superstition, and into the realm of proven courses of treatments and medicines. This is part of the reason I think all doctors have an obligation to do some sort of research work, to show some stewardship for their profession. But I think there is a difference between doing research work with new treatments and flat out offering the treatments without testing.

At any rate, I feel this "anything goes" mindset is a step back for medicine. Yes, our patients may want some new treatment they saw on an infomercial, but I think a big part of our job is to educate the patients instead of giving into their whims. Sick people are often in a vulnerable position, and are easy marks for people hawking miracle cures and natural remidies. It should be our job to defend patients from these parasites, and not be the parasites themselves.

I guess some of the confusion on this board seems to come from the fact that most of the osteopathic posters are too quick to explain away the differences between the two schools. "Look at these allopathic residencies we get into", or "we learn all the same stuff in the same classes" or "osteopathic-trained Dr. X is attending surgeon at such and such hospital". That leaves the rest of us scratching our heads... because we wonder why those people didn't just go to allopathic schools.

Ok, time for bed.

Wrigley

Wrigley,

If you read my post, I never said that medical doctors, MDs or DOs alike, should buy into, endorse, or even suggest the use of these "infomercial miracles". All I said is that we should be trained on the substances, merely to know how they affect our patients health, in the positive or negative. D.O.s are, on the whole, more willing to learn about them and not display the knee-jerk reaction you exemplified nicely. You bought right into my arguement. Thank you. Your patients are going to take these drugs whether you recommend them or not. If you dont think so you're being naiive. With the recent increase in direct-to-market advertising of drug and herbal companies, not to mention the internet, your patients will come in knowing more than you about a particular drug. Guaranteed. Your automatic dismissal of the mere notion of alternative therapies as quackery is exactly what medicine must avoid in the future,... ie, not because physicians need to endorse these products, but instead to learn about them. I have never taken an herb, nor will I ever probably, but I know what they do so when my patient comes in with a slew of bottles he got at CVS, I'll be able to understand how they interact his Plavix, Enalapril and Lasix. If you dont understand this, or refuse to on the basis of it's classification as "alternative" your doing your patients a HUGE disservice. I agree with your research comment, no treatment should be offered without testing, and I never said anything to the contrary. We do very much owe future generations explanations for the remedies we offer, hence the reason why we need to learn about them and not dismiss them outright.

As far as OMM goes, like I said, it's physical therapy. I guarantee you'll refer your patients for PT, but probably not for OMM unfortunately, when in fact physical therapy has its roots and foundations in osteopathic medicine. OMM is a nice example for D.O.s to parade out explaining their theory of the "body as a whole concept with the innate ability to heal itself". It's a tool, nothing more, nothing less. Dont let a D.O. or D.O. premed tell you it's the basis of the profession, it aint. It's merely another tool and/or technique that a doctor can employ. If you dont want as many tools in your bag, who cares, other than your patients.

I dont hold any of your views against you. I was probably once alot like you too, but I one day started to think for myself instead of forming my thoughts based on message boards and adcoms. Dont fall into the puppet trap of being told what to say and how to say it, cause y'all sound like one big premed tape recorder right now. good luck...

Its all economics folks. As I said before, the AOA is just trying to breed itself into the medical culture, and these osteopath schools that pop up overnight are just there to cash in on all the people who couldn't get into allopathic schools.

Let's know what we're talking about before we open our mouths, shall we? First, the executive director of the AOA, John Crosby, used to be Vice President of the AMA. He was in charge of governmental relations under the Clinton Administration, is a very big democrat, and basically wrote and directed the failed attempt at American health policy reform for the Clinton folks. Right after health care reform failed in the mid-90s, he left the AMA because he realized mainstream medicine in this country is disorganized and fractionated, thus inhibiting any reform, for the better or worse. He joined the AOA because, although they were a minority, they are unified and slowly but surely gaining marketshare in the american healthforce. He saw the opporunity to mold this young ball of clay into the ideal healthcare model. While it wont happen overnight, it will make a dent, and already has. For example, much of the lobbying for PLI reform has been accomplished by D.O.s, not M.D.s If you dont believe me, call your congressman and ask how many D.O.s have been on the Hill lobbying over the past year, then how many M.D.s. I can tell you the answer to save you your cellular minutes.

Regarding the opening up of D.O. schools "overnight", this is far from the case. The most recent school, the Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine, on the campus of Virginia Tech, is opening with a foundation of $100 million dollars from private donors. I havent heard of an MD that's ever opened their doors with that much money in the bank. The donors believe in osteopathic medicine, not in seeing a profit from it. Since these schools are non-profit, it will be impossible for these folks to earn their money back and hence they cant "cash in on all the folks who didnt get into allopathic school". While D.O. schools may have felt some growing pains over the past 10 years, they're starting to hit their stride. They must be making some waves, for like I said, I cant imagine how a group of supposedly inferior and less intelligent people could have such a dramatic and zealous effect on premedical message boards! :)

night!

I'm tired of the MD/DO debate, because you never sway anyone from either side. The prejudice is so imbedded in your personality that it will take actual experience in the field to get rid of it (ie, a DO attending, or DO PD for your choice residency) Anyway, I'm a non-trad who will be applying to 8 schools, all PA, both MD and DO, due to my family situation. My plan is to go to the best school that accepts me regardless of degree awarded. Based on my research and personal opinion, here's how my list goes (today):

1. Penn (I'll p1ss my pants if I get in here)
2. Jeff (higher ranked on US News than Penn, but hey)
3. Pitt
4. PCOM (I like Pitt more academically, but location wise PCOM will probably jump to #3 by app time)
5. Penn State
6. LECOM
7. Temple
8. Drexel

I'll probably get flamed, but that's how I plan to decide. Just giving myself the best chance out there.

Originally posted by CJ2Doc
[B]1. Penn (I'll p1ss my pants if I get in here)
2. Jeff (higher ranked on US News than Penn, but hey)
3. Pitt umm.....i dont what year of the usnews you're reading, but last time i checked upenn is top 5 and jefferson is in the 40s somewhere :D

on the primary care list, yes.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/med/brief/mdprank_brief.php

but again, its only US News

That's your order? I know you don't want anyone's opinion, but I'll give mine anyways. :D

I can't believe you have Temple below PCOM or LECOM. Temple is nationally known for kick-ass clinical experience. That's great that you're all into the "it doesn't matter if you're a DO or MD" attitude, but aren't you at least considering schools with superior clinical experience as being more attractive?

Originally posted by CJ2Doc
I'm tired of the MD/DO debate, because you never sway anyone from either side. The prejudice is so imbedded in your personality that it will take actual experience in the field to get rid of it (ie, a DO attending, or DO PD for your choice residency) Anyway, I'm a non-trad who will be applying to 8 schools, all PA, both MD and DO, due to my family situation. My plan is to go to the best school that accepts me regardless of degree awarded. Based on my research and personal opinion, here's how my list goes (today):

1. Penn (I'll p1ss my pants if I get in here)
2. Jeff (higher ranked on US News than Penn, but hey)
3. Pitt
4. PCOM (I like Pitt more academically, but location wise PCOM will probably jump to #3 by app time)
5. Penn State
6. LECOM
7. Temple
8. Drexel

I'll probably get flamed, but that's how I plan to decide. Just giving myself the best chance out there.

Originally posted by CJ2Doc
I'm tired of the MD/DO debate, because you never sway anyone from either side. The prejudice is so imbedded in your personality that it will take actual experience in the field to get rid of it (ie, a DO attending, or DO PD for your choice residency) Anyway, I'm a non-trad who will be applying to 8 schools, all PA, both MD and DO, due to my family situation. My plan is to go to the best school that accepts me regardless of degree awarded. Based on my research and personal opinion, here's how my list goes (today):

1. Penn (I'll p1ss my pants if I get in here)
2. Jeff (higher ranked on US News than Penn, but hey)
3. Pitt
4. PCOM (I like Pitt more academically, but location wise PCOM will probably jump to #3 by app time)
5. Penn State
6. LECOM
7. Temple
8. Drexel

I'll probably get flamed, but that's how I plan to decide. Just giving myself the best chance out there.

Dude you must be really bright or really stupid, I?m thinking just really stupid. It is offensive for you to put U. Penn and PCOM in your top 5 rankings. U. Penn has an average mcat of 34-35, while PCOM has an average mcat of 24-25, I don?t know you, but I?m pretty sure you won?t be given this as a choice to make. $hit I could?ve not even taken the verbal section on the mcat and still scored higher then PCOMs? average.

Man, people are sooooo worked up over averages.

When I was deciding which schools to attend (Temple, PCOM, Jefferson among some of them), I didn't care about their average GPA or MCATs or penile length or whatever - because it has nothing to do w/ me.

I was looking at student body, facilities, clinical oppertunities, research oppertunities, faculty, tuition/fees, etc.

If you are into research, then Jefferson and Penn are more appropriate than Temple or Drexel or PCOM. Temple is great, but it's in a bad neighborhood and has substandard facilities (one of the reason why they are on LCME probation). Jefferson has great research and great clinical experience, but the tuition and cost of living in center city means $$$$$$$$ :(

Anyway, people have their own priorities. Some may choose Penn over PCOM, while others will choose Temple over Penn. I'm not the "PRO-DO ALL THE WAY" type. In fact, I don't care what degree I get - as long as I can practice medicine with it. And I'm not too big on name dropping too. Nothing annoys me more than people who name drop - "What!?! You expect me, a Hopkins grad, to do a H&P on that new kid!?! - Why not let that PCOM grad intern do it instead"

Anyway, as I always advocated - choose the school based on personal preference. If you are uncomfortable with a DO degree - then don't apply to DO. If you want to be in academic medicine, then Penn might be a better option than PCOM. If you are interested in rural medicine, then PCOM (or WVCOM) might be a better option. If you have a need to be in a top-tier school, then go to a top-tier school. However, don't go around bashing other people's choices - they might have different priorities and ideals and circumstances that might be different from your priorities and circumstances.

To CJ2DOC,

Good luck with the admission process. Fortunately, PA has a boat load of schools (PCOM, LECOM, Pittsburgh, Penn State, Temple, Drexel MCP/Hahnemann, Jefferson, UPenn). Just curious - why aren't you considering Penn State or Drexel?

Hi group_theory,

I'm surprised that I hear that people are "afraid" of Temple's campus. I'm female and live by myself on-campus and feel totally safe.

For some reason, I get the impression that people don't realize that the surrounding neighborhood has changed a lot over the years (for the better). The immediate vicinity of campus is fine. I just use common sense. I wouldn't venture by myself in the outskirts of North Philly by myself late at night, but I also wouldn't do that in Pittsburgh (a relatively "safe" city).

It's kind of funny when I hear men say that they're "afraid" of the campus because I don't hesitate to go out at late at night to run an errand; I just stay close to main campus (right off of Broad street).

There are security guards EVERYWHERE in the middle of the night. It's really uncanny (the 3rd largest police force in the state of PA is Temple's campus police).

The campus is very well-lit at night. In fact, I heard that it's the most lit-up city block intersection in the country. I don't know if that stat is true, but I wouldn't be surprised because it's literally lighter in the middle of the night at Temple than it is in Pittsburgh at dusk.

About the facilities: I personally think they're great. I've had no complaints whatsoever about them. Anyways, the school has already made strides in this area. You can read an excellent post by phillystyl with comments regarding Temple improvements (http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58693&highlight=temple+probation).

I'm actually not that afraid of temple's campuses, including the health science center.

I grew up in the projects, and my family somewhat still lives in the ghetto of North Philly. It would be nice to not spend the next 2-4 years in the same-type of neighborhood (university city is vastly different). However, the reason why Temple has a great clinical education is because it is in a bad neighborhood. That's where all the bad cases are seen.

If you are in a hospital in suburbia, you won't see the interesting trauma cases (multile GSW to the head, chest, etc) and assults/battery, etc. Nor will you see people who have diseases due to lack of medical treatment. That's why Hopkins, HUP, Temple, Cook County General - have great EM residencies and great IM programs.

I know about the improvements that Temple is making. However, I want to benefit from those improvements, not be a student in a construction zone. And quite frankly, by the time the renovations are complete, I may well be in MS-III or MS-IV (or have graduated) and thus won't benefit from these improvements.

In no way am I saying that Temple is a bad school. In fact, it is an excellent school, producing great physicians and researchers. However, in my case, I decided that Temple wasn't the right fit for me. As stated in the Osteopathic forum - the best school is the school you end up going, not some stupid listings from USNews, or Child Magazine or Who's Who in America's Hospitals.

My message is simple - whatever medical school you go to (DO or MD or Carrib. MD), you'll still learn the same materials. Pick the school that you feel that you will be happiest, most comfortable, where you can spend the next 2 years crammed in lecture halls, etc. Don't pick it based on USNews ranking (for all we know, Harvard may drop to tier-2 in USNews next year, or lose its LCME accrediation). Don't pick it based on average GPA and average MCAT - because it doesn't apply to you. Don't pick it because all your friends will go "WOW!!". Most people don't care if you go to HMS or Local Community College College of Remedial Medicine - as long as you are caring, competent, and provide treatment to their complaints and problems.

OK, after that long lecture, I'm going to my Wharton classes now - you know, this dump below-average second-class pre-DO student needs to know how to milk the cow :)

Just remember - not all DO students are functional idiots with a combine MCAT score of 10. Just like not all pre-MD (or MD students) in this posts are jerks w/ egos bigger than a super red giant star :) Look at the individual

Originally posted by group_theory
To CJ2DOC,

Good luck with the admission process. Fortunately, PA has a boat load of schools (PCOM, LECOM, Pittsburgh, Penn State, Temple, Drexel MCP/Hahnemann, Jefferson, UPenn). Just curious - why aren't you considering Penn State or Drexel?

I am considering everybody. I WILL go to any school that accepts me. My list is just a reference tool in case I am lucky enough to have multiple acceptances. Again my list will probably change when I visit the campuses, take location into consideration, etc. But for now this works for me.

[QUOTE]Dude you must be really bright or really stupid, I?m thinking just really stupid. It is offensive for you to put U. Penn and PCOM in your top 5 rankings. U. Penn has an average mcat of 34-35, while PCOM has an average mcat of 24-25, I don?t know you, but I?m pretty sure you won?t be given this as a choice to make. $hit I could?ve not even taken the verbal section on the mcat and still scored higher then PCOMs? average.

Dude, you're an *****. I am mature and experienced enough that I don't pay much attention to numbers. I observe and formulate decisions based on my own personal prefrences--that's what adults do. If I lived my life by averages, I'd still be living in Coaltown, PA working as a welder for $9.00, with 5 kids and an addiction to alcohol, instead of where I am today.

BTW, someone with your user profile shouldn't be deeming others on an anonymous message board stupid when you don't know anything about them. You know what I'm saying, pimpdaddy homeslice?

What the pho


Your sig is hilarious.

Who said it?

Before another anal premed gets their panties in a bunch
and jumps on my niggity niggity nutz about my spelling and grammar.
Ask yourself, do you think I give a flyin phuck?
So what if my grammer and spelling is bad on the internet.
To bad almost all test in med school and boards are multiple choice.
So check my grammar and spelling on this mcat 35L (7VR,13PS,15BS).
English is not my primary language, so eat me.

Someone who kicked ***** at PCOM and ended up doing their residency at Hopkins or someone who got into Boston University, barely made it through and did their residency at some low volume allopathic hospital in the middle of nowhere? There are DOs doing their surgical residencies at Hopkins.

Before another anal premed gets their panties in a bunch and jumps on my niggity niggity nutz about my spelling and grammar.
Ask yourself, do you think I give a flyin phuck?
So what if my grammer and spelling is bad on the internet.
To bad almost all test in med school and boards are multiple choice.
So check my grammar and spelling on this mcat 35L (7VR,13PS,15BS).
English is not my primary language, so eat me.

Dont take this personally, but you're just what we need. Another brillant doctor in this country who cant speak english. People like you belong beside a bench, not a bed. Ya know what, here's some news... patients dont come in with multiple choice questions tatooted on their chests, so brush up on the English and find a new attitude. Some attending is gonna have a field day with you in a few years, hope it's me. ;)

out.

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Dont take this personally, but you're just what we need. Another brillant doctor in this country who cant speak english. People like you belong beside a bench, not a bed. Ya know what, here's some news... patients dont come in with multiple choice questions tatooted on their chests, so brush up on the English and find a new attitude. Some attending is gonna have a field day with you in a few years, hope it's me. ;)

out.
Sorry, I don't plan on doing a primary care res at a DO hospital, those are for idiots like you who couldn't get into a MD school or a MD residency. How correct my grammar and spelling on the internet have nothing to do with my ability to problem solve and diagnose, so do as my signature says, and eat me. Oceandichead.

Grow up chief. Do you have any idea how dumb you sound?

Originally posted by CJ2Doc
You know what I'm saying, pimpdaddy homeslice?

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Dont take this personally, but you're just what we need. Another brillant doctor in this country who cant speak english. People like you belong beside a bench, not a bed.

This joint is hilarious!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

By the way, I'm also applying to Penn and PCOM. I guess that makes me a stupid idiot too:rolleyes:

You both sound kind of dumb. Cut it out.

Originally posted by womansurg
You both sound kind of dumb. Cut it out. This comment summarizes about 90 percent of threads in SDN history :laugh:

Originally posted by DW
This comment summarizes about 90 percent of threads in SDN history :laugh:

only 90%! I'd go with 99.5%..:D

actually, the name calling often goes in both directions, and some of the DO and DO students on here can be very arrogant as well. I chose to go allopathic not because of the MD or b/c of the prestige, but b/c I felt that the schools which accepted me had more facilities, opportunities, and resources than DO schools, which tend to be less recognized and less well-funded. I also agree more with the MD approach to disease, where the history and physical are usually the hot ticket when it comes to diagnosis, while DO's seem to focus more on eliminating less likely problems first with technology and physical diagnosis tests from what I hear. A number of the DO students also seem to think that the insurance companies and the hospital administration are not going to crawl up their @$$ for ordering expensive tests upfront to rule out extremely unlikely conditions. Well, it may be unfair, but sorry guys, you've got another thing coming once you hit the wards, as do any pre-MD's who think this way. This is not to say I believe you should worry about cost when someone is in acute distress, but it is an issue for the patient b/c insurance companies can be jack@$$es at times.. And everyone is right, it makes no difference whether or not you are an MD or DO, come residency time there will be attendings who will make your life hell regardless of the letters in front of your name..

if I had to do it again I would still go MD, even if we are supposed to be arrogant tools..:)

I also agree more with the MD approach to disease, where the history and physical are usually the hot ticket when it comes to diagnosis, while DO's seem to focus more on eliminating less likely problems first with technology and physical diagnosis tests from what I hear. A number of the DO students also seem to think that the insurance companies and the hospital administration are not going to crawl up their @$$ for ordering expensive tests upfront to rule out extremely unlikely conditions

Interesting. Regarding the two "theories", this has been discussed ad nauseum in different threads, but I have never heard of the contributions you offer. In fact, I would very much disagree with your statement of D.O.s ordering more diagnostic tests. The whole reason D.O. students spend about 300 more hours in didactic class and the phys diagnosis laboratory than MD students is to learn to diagnose with their hands, not a machine. While the statistical, double-blinded jury is out as to the overall efficacy of OMM, the disgnostic power of palpation has never been disputed, by MD or DO alike. There's a few hundred pages in Bates on palpation, and palpation is the foundation of OMM. As for the rest of OMM, think of it as physical therapy, nothing more, nothing less. Dont discount it, because your patients wont. I guarantee it.

In my opinion, the two "theories" of medicine differ in that the allopathic model really has no theory, or at least one that can be articulated. If you can explain what being an allopath means, please do. I'm not sure you know, nor do most premeds. Look up the definition of the word "allopath". While both ideologies have grown towards each other over the past 30 years, ie, allopathic medicine has become more holistic and osteopathic medicine has grown more specialized, both theories depend heavily on the H&P and their differences in practice, albeit from a layperson's viewpoint are less striking than ever, are surely not defined by what you outline above.

What the pho - OK, since everyone's asking you questions, here's mine. :D 13 and 15 are damn good on your MCAT. You said that English isn't your primary language. What's your first language?

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Dont take this personally, but you're just what we need. Another brillant doctor in this country who cant speak english. People like you belong beside a bench, not a bed. Ya know what, here's some news... patients dont come in with multiple choice questions tatooted on their chests, so brush up on the English and find a new attitude. Some attending is gonna have a field day with you in a few years, hope it's me. ;)

out.

I would personally prefer a brilliant doctor performing cardiothoracic surgery on my family members than a mediocre doctor with excellent English.

I would personally prefer a brilliant doctor performing cardiothoracic surgery on my family members than a mediocre doctor with excellent English.

Likewise, but we're all not going to be cardiothoracic surgeons, actually less than 0.5% of us will. Now, granted, certain specialties require less communicative skills than others, but speaking the english language effectively is essential to practicing good medicine. If you dont believe me now, you will.

It really wasnt the english I was attacking from this poster anyway. I was honestly just kinda appauled at the unprofessionalism of a future doctor. Granted my response wasnt all that professional either, but at times you fight fire with fire. I had similar scores coming out of college and while I chose the road less travelled in going to a D.O. institution, I would have been very embarassed with myself if I acted in such a manner. Just an opinion. Take it for what you will.

Originally posted by jwin
I would personally prefer a brilliant doctor performing cardiothoracic surgery on my family members than a mediocre doctor with excellent English. Yeah, but whom would you want performing your mother's annual breast exams, screening you dad for depression, managing your grandmother's diet controlled diabetes, counseling your 16 year old daughter on safe sex and performing her first pelvic exam?

Originally posted by cg1
What the pho - OK, since everyone's asking you questions, here's mine. :D 13 and 15 are damn good on your MCAT. You said that English isn't your primary language. What's your first language?
My primary language is math and science j/k. For real though I can read and write in Cantonese, and Mandarin, and I can speak in Vietnamese fluently. As for English I?m getting the hang of it as you can tell.

Ocean
I don?t think it well affect my ability to be a skilled physician. At my interviews I?ve been interviewed by many East Indian, Asian and European doctors with harder to understand accents then mine, and I?m sure they are great physicians or they wouldn?t be on faculty/attending at some of these top 20 schools. I'm sure even at your DO school there are some faculty who are Indian or Chinese, who you can't understand worth a lick, but are probably great physicians. Like one poster said I?d rather have a brilliant doctor w/bad English perform surgery than and idiot doc w/great English, who can't tell the difference between an aorta and an *****hole.

Likewise, we all want great doctors, but the average Joe Public on the street will choose a great doc who speaks great english rather than another great doctor who doesnt. In other words, you make it sound like a requirement to being a good physician is to speak bad english.

Many, including some in this very thread, say that the verbal score of the MCAT is the best predictor of clinical and board scores successes and and that's because the verbal and written portions test your ability to comprehend and to communicate, which are of the utmost importance in clinical, not textbook, medicine. I had impressive MCATs as well, and lemme tell ya, they dont mean $hit when it comes to learning and retaining real medicine to real patients. The MCAT tests your ability to work under stress and study hard. The exam isnt rocket science, it's very basic science. So, congrats on your score, but if you think there arent other factors that determine clinical success and patient retention, you're crazy.

Originally posted by womansurg
Yeah, but whom would you want performing your mother's annual breast exams, screening you dad for depression, managing your grandmother's diet controlled diabetes, counseling your 16 year old daughter on safe sex and performing her first pelvic exam?
Yes communication with your patient is very important in those roles I won?t deny that. So if I did want to do those things I would do it in an immigrant community where I could speak the same language as my patients.

Ocean
I've never said bad english is needed to be a good doctor. I'm just saying even though my english is bad I'll stilll be okay. You're the one who is saying bad english=bad doctor. So check yo self be 4 yo reck yo self.

what the pho, for future reference there's no such thing as reading and writing Cantonese and Mandarin. i assume you meant u can speak both and can read and write Chinese? if so, thats amazing that ur fluent in two Chinese dialects as well as Vietnamese.

Originally posted by zer0el
what the pho, for future reference there's no such thing as reading and writing Cantonese and Mandarin. i assume you meant u can speak both and can read and write Chinese? if so, thats amazing that ur fluent in two Chinese dialects as well as Vietnamese.
Yes that's what I meant, I'm Vietnamese by blood, but grew up in hong kong so I had to learn mainly Cantonese to get by, and a little Mandarin. I can still speak vietnamese but can't write in it.

Originally posted by What the pho
Yes that's what I meant, I'm Vietnamese by blood, but grew up in hong kong so I had to learn mainly Cantonese to get by, and a little Mandarin. I can still speak vietnamese but can't write in it.

Pho - those noodles are awesome. There's a place in Mass called Pho Pasteur - the smells from there make me drool.

Anyway, I'm done with the people bashing each other here, but I have to point out, that WTP communicates well enough in English, and he also knows a couple more languages to boot.

Fluency in multiple languages is a good skill, and should come in handy while working as a physician. Frankly, I'm jealous.

- Tae

mmm...pho pasteur...so good =)