Okay, here's the deal. I took the DATs right over winter break and did not do as well as I liked:
PAT: 21
AA: 18 (RC 20, QR 19, TS 16 BIO 16 GC 18 OC 16)
I know, OUCHHH I should have studied the sciences more.. I had three weeks, and I devoted the first two weeks to the sciences instead of the last two. Regardless of the reasons, my scores are so-so and my DAT retakes are currently scheduled for July 9th.

I'm not applying to many top-notch schools, just basically all the schools in CA, AZ, TN, OR, WI, MD, VA, and DC. My extracurriculars are strong with leadership experience, even though I could have strayed off campus a TAD more and maybe have more dental-related stuff but I've done a lot of shadowing. My LORs for the most part will be amazing as I know the writers well. I have a friendly demeanor, so as long as I get to the interview, that should be fine. My GPA is ehhh, a 3.12, but I go to Johns Hopkins, where there is no grade inflation whatsoever and the coarseload is tough. My pre-dental advisor says schools should recognize this, but I'm not quite sure, since my DATs don't reflect this. I'm not sure what to think at this point, so that's why I'm on the SDN board!

SHOULD I OR SHOULD I NOT RETAKE THE DATS?
My advisor says if I think I can do better, I might as well. I thought I could, but I am now on Topiramate (story for another day)... side effects that include euphoria, confusion, and drowsiness. I've definitely been feeling the side effects while working full-time. It just took me 80 minutes to get thru 60 minutes of PAT questions. Help? Ayudame?

definitely retake. Two 16's is no bueno.

Your gpa matters much more than going to hopkins. It doesn't matter where you went. And that logic of it being harder than other schools won't fly with a bad dat. You need to retake the dat obviously, but get that gpa up too.

Post-bacc /master and retake, save your $ and apply early next cycle

"Grade inflation" might have been convincing if the DAT scores were high.

I don't mean to be harsh, but those scored aren't "so-so." They're flat out below average. If you're serious about getting into dental school you need to retake that exam and bring your scores up. Browse this forum and you'll see that this cycle is gonna be quite competitive (Most of the posts I've seen from people who have taken the DAT involve scores of 21+). Of course, SDN is not representative of the actual applicant pool, but it should give you an idea of who you're competing with. Perhaps, 3-4 years ago you had a chance of getting into dental school with an AA of 18. But those times are far gone, just like the time we paid 1.73$/gal for gas. So, in my view, nothing will compensate for those 16s.
Nevertheless, the final decision is yours to make and see whether or not you want to retake the exam and improve your chances.

Browse this forum and you'll see that this cycle is gonna be quite competitive (Most of the posts I've seen from people who have taken the DAT involve scores of 21+). Of course, SDN is not representative of the actual applicant pool, but it should give you an idea of who you're competing with. Perhaps, 3-4 years ago you had a chance of getting into dental school with an AA of 18. But those times are far gone, just like the time we paid 1.73$/gal for gas. So, in my view, nothing will compensate for those 16s.


While there is no doubt that you may have seen a number of posts with claims of DAT scores of 21+, even the 2009 crop of applicants is unlikely to have had a dramatic influence on the frequency of scores of 21 and above.

http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/testing/dat/dat_score_frequency.pd
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=602109

I don't mean to be harsh, but those scored aren't "so-so." They're flat out below average. If you're serious about getting into dental school you need to retake that exam and bring your scores up. Browse this forum and you'll see that this cycle is gonna be quite competitive (Most of the posts I've seen from people who have taken the DAT involve scores of 21+). Of course, SDN is not representative of the actual applicant pool, but it should give you an idea of who you're competing with. Perhaps, 3-4 years ago you had a chance of getting into dental school with an AA of 18. But those times are far gone, just like the time we paid 1.73$/gal for gas. So, in my view, nothing will compensate for those 16s.
Nevertheless, the final decision is yours to make and see whether or not you want to retake the exam and improve your chances.


Please stop spreading this nonsense, the AA of the DAT last year for ACCEPTED STUDENTS WA 18.97 which means that there were plenty of people with a DAT score at 18, check in one of Doc Toothache's links for it. Will this student get in with a below average GPA as well as DAT score? Probably not a great chance, but his DAT score isn't terrible. I do agree a retake should be in order for this particular case, but don't confuse people by saying they can't get in with an 18.

Please stop spreading this nonsense, the AA of the DAT last year for ACCEPTED STUDENTS WA 18.97 which means that there were plenty of people with a DAT score at 18, check in one of Doc Toothache's links for it. Will this student get in with a below average GPA as well as DAT score? Probably not a great chance, but his DAT score isn't terrible. I do agree a retake should be in order for this particular case, but don't confuse people by saying they can't get in with an 18.

Perhaps you should open your eyes and see his science scores. Two 16s, and you still think he has a chance?!:laugh:
The only one spreading any kind of nonsense here is you, trying to give people false hope, instead of guiding them in the right path. You telling him he has a chance with these scores might make him feel good for couple of days and give him the impression that he could get in without a retake. But in the long run, that's the worst advice you can ever give anyone. My comment may sound harsh, but at least it's realistic. He has low scores and he needs to improve them if he wants in!!
Besides, applicants with an AA of 18 will probably still get in this year. However, those who do get in with such score probably don't have two scores of 16 in their science section. They're probably averaging somewhere between 18-20, which isn't that bad.
So again, go back to his post, but this time look at it with open eyes, so you'll see those 16s.

Do you think one 16 is okay if the other grades are 19, 20, 20, 21, pat 20? I got a16 in organic even though i got A's in both organic and was recognized as the outstanding student of the year in organic. I took them sophomore year and took the dat at the end of my junior year. We all know Organic isnt programmed in one's long term memeory as Biology or Gen Chemistry.

I take everything in this forum with a grain of salt, given that only a percentage of pre-health student frequent these boards, and those students (including everyone reading this!) are most likely to be at the higher end of the spectrum. My GPA has increased from freshman year to a 3.45/3.46 the past two semesters in higher level bio classes.

I KNOW my DAT scores are not a true example of my knowledge, but my advisor thinks it should not hurt my chances of being admitted to A school this cycle, as I play a varsity sport for two years, co-direct the peer counselor program, am active on student government, etc -- those are just the few things that I do on campus, outside of volunteering. She is aware that I'm working a $36K/yr managerial job and shadowing this summer, and told me only to retake the DAT IF I have the time and will do better. I signed up for the DATs believing that I could manage the time and that I could definitely do better, but in addition to the time issues, some unforeseen health issues came into play and now I just don't know what to do?!!!?!!

I appreciate all the feedback, keep it coming! This is a great discussion thread. CCDDS also posed an excellent question right above me if anyone else w/better credentials would like to lend him/her a hand.

Do you think one 16 is okay if the other grades are 19, 20, 20, 21, pat 20? I got a16 in organic even though i got A's in both organic and was recognized as the outstanding student of the year in organic. I took them sophomore year and took the dat at the end of my junior year. We all know Organic isnt programmed in one's long term memeory as Biology or Gen Chemistry.
I understand everybody want or hope to hear something positive about their stats whether their GPA/DAT are from supreme to mediocre to horrible, I'm not trying to be an *** but "Organic isn't programmed in one's long term memory as Biology or Gen Chem" isn't the best excuse for not doing well on those sections. If you are "the outstanding student of the year in organic" as you claimed, I'm sure you can do better than a 16!

Runnhit: If I were you, I would definitely retake the DAT, as we all know that getting in a d-school isn't like 10 years ago when a 17AA was considered ok. It's great that you have so much going for you other than school but the first thing they look at isn't your EC, in order to past the initial scanning pocess, you need to have either strong DAT or GPA.

I think you can consider retaking...but honestly - do not forget that most of the people on here are the ones getting superb scores - above and beyond...there are tons of students with scores like yours, perhaps a little above or below...i think SDN has many members that are exceptional in their various pre-health professions careers - and i have many friends that have gotten into DS with scores similar to yours...a score of 21+ like many of us get is pretty rare...and keep in mind, i know a kid that got a 22/23 (with a pretty dang good looking application) and got denied to DS...so dat is CERTAINLY not everything;)

I take everything in this forum with a grain of salt, given that only a percentage of pre-health student frequent these boards, and those students (including everyone reading this!) are most likely to be at the higher end of the spectrum. My GPA has increased from freshman year to a 3.45/3.46 the past two semesters in higher level bio classes.

I KNOW my DAT scores are not a true example of my knowledge, but my advisor thinks it should not hurt my chances of being admitted to A school this cycle, as I play a varsity sport for two years, co-direct the peer counselor program, am active on student government, etc -- those are just the few things that I do on campus, outside of volunteering. She is aware that I'm working a $36K/yr managerial job and shadowing this summer, and told me only to retake the DAT IF I have the time and will do better. I signed up for the DATs believing that I could manage the time and that I could definitely do better, but in addition to the time issues, some unforeseen health issues came into play and now I just don't know what to do?!!!?!!

I appreciate all the feedback, keep it coming! This is a great discussion thread. CCDDS also posed an excellent question right above me if anyone else w/better credentials would like to lend him/her a hand.

Apparently, you've already made up your mind for not retaking the exam. So, me encouraging to do so wouldn't really make a difference. However, keep in mind that all that extra curricular activity won't save you, unless you can show these people that you have the strong science background, which allows you to survive dental school and the crazy competition that comes with it. It's great that you're into sports, but your applying for dental school not the Olympics!
Good Luck Anyways!:thumbup:

Thanks for everyone's input! Good luck w/admissions for anyone that's applying. I'll consider a post-bac/masters programs because a year off to do research or just to focus solely on school doesn't sound too bad!

I feel your pain, Run. UVA does that to people too.... I'm gonna have a fun 6 months explaining the butt rape our Bio dept dishes out to our GPAs :)

Perhaps you should open your eyes and see his science scores. Two 16s, and you still think he has a chance?!:laugh:
The only one spreading any kind of nonsense here is you, trying to give people false hope, instead of guiding them in the right path. You telling him he has a chance with these scores might make him feel good for couple of days and give him the impression that he could get in without a retake. But in the long run, that's the worst advice you can ever give anyone. My comment may sound harsh, but at least it's realistic. He has low scores and he needs to improve them if he wants in!!
Besides, applicants with an AA of 18 will probably still get in this year. However, those who do get in with such score probably don't have two scores of 16 in their science section. They're probably averaging somewhere between 18-20, which isn't that bad.
So again, go back to his post, but this time look at it with open eyes, so you'll see those 16s.

I rarely get smart with anyone on these forums, but I may have to make an exception here. I was not saying he was or was not going to get in, and if you would look at the bolded words in your quote under my reply ( I made sure you didn't miss it this time), you would see that I was refuting your claim that " had a chance of getting into dental school with an AA of 18. But those times are far gone" because it is truly false. If the AA is 18.97 for accepted students, then plenty of students must have an 18 and got in.

Now, if you really want me to be frank, I don't think this person has a very good chance at getting in anywhere just because his DAT is below average, the two 16s (which I DID see the first) will hurt them, AND his GPA is well below average. Does that make them a bad person? No, they just aren't as competitive as many other students, as far as numbers go.

So, I am not spreading false hope, because I never said I thought they would get in. In fact I believe my exact words were "Will this student get in with a below average GPA as well as DAT score? Probably not a great chance, but his DAT score isn't terrible. I do agree a retake should be in order for this particular case, but don't confuse people by saying they can't get in with an 18." I agree they should have a retake and that they have a slim chance at getting in. You simply act as if there is no hope at all, and that is, IMO, more detrimental than aknowledging the fact that their chances are not good, but there may be a sliver of hope.

I rarely get smart with anyone on these forums, but I may have to make an exception here. I was not saying he was or was not going to get in, and if you would look at the bolded words in your quote under my reply ( I made sure you didn't miss it this time), you would see that I was refuting your claim that " had a chance of getting into dental school with an AA of 18. But those times are far gone" because it is truly false. If the AA is 18.97 for accepted students, then plenty of students must have an 18 and got in.

Now, if you really want me to be frank, I don't think this person has a very good chance at getting in anywhere just because his DAT is below average, the two 16s (which I DID see the first) will hurt them, AND his GPA is well below average. Does that make them a bad person? No, they just aren't as competitive as many other students, as far as numbers go.

So, I am not spreading false hope, because I never said I thought they would get in. In fact I believe my exact words were "Will this student get in with a below average GPA as well as DAT score? Probably not a great chance, but his DAT score isn't terrible. I do agree a retake should be in order for this particular case, but don't confuse people by saying they can't get in with an 18." I agree they should have a retake and that they have a slim chance at getting in. You simply act as if there is no hope at all, and that is, IMO, more detrimental than aknowledging the fact that their chances are not good, but there may be a sliver of hope.

I'm sure he/she is a decent person. I wasn't implying otherwise in any of my previous posts. when I said "had a chance of getting into dental school with an AA of 18. But those times are far gone" I wasn't trying to say that no student with an AA of 18 will ever get into dental school again; I guess I was trying to show that the averages for schools are getting higher every year and this field is simply becoming more competitive as we go.

Okay, here's the deal. I took the DATs right over winter break and did not do as well as I liked:
PAT: 21
AA: 18 (RC 20, QR 19, TS 16 BIO 16 GC 18 OC 16)
I know, OUCHHH I should have studied the sciences more.. I had three weeks, and I devoted the first two weeks to the sciences instead of the last two. Regardless of the reasons, my scores are so-so and my DAT retakes are currently scheduled for July 9th.

I'm not applying to many top-notch schools, just basically all the schools in CA, AZ, TN, OR, WI, MD, VA, and DC. My extracurriculars are strong with leadership experience, even though I could have strayed off campus a TAD more and maybe have more dental-related stuff but I've done a lot of shadowing. My LORs for the most part will be amazing as I know the writers well. I have a friendly demeanor, so as long as I get to the interview, that should be fine. My GPA is ehhh, a 3.12, but I go to Johns Hopkins, where there is no grade inflation whatsoever and the coarseload is tough. My pre-dental advisor says schools should recognize this, but I'm not quite sure, since my DATs don't reflect this. I'm not sure what to think at this point, so that's why I'm on the SDN board!

SHOULD I OR SHOULD I NOT RETAKE THE DATS?
My advisor says if I think I can do better, I might as well. I thought I could, but I am now on Topiramate (story for another day)... side effects that include euphoria, confusion, and drowsiness. I've definitely been feeling the side effects while working full-time. It just took me 80 minutes to get thru 60 minutes of PAT questions. Help? Ayudame?


If you seriously get into DS, you need to retake DAT (if you are minority, you should be fine!However ask to school before you will apply). Your science scores are below national average (except GC). If you concentrate on science sections, you may dramatically increase your chance. NZE82 is right. Do not let people give you to false hopes. Try to aim 20 or 20+ in each section to compensate your relatively low GPA. Maybe you can take some upper science courses or one year master to improve your GPA too. The choice is yours.Good luck.

Okay, here's the deal. I took the DATs right over winter break and did not do as well as I liked:
PAT: 21
AA: 18 (RC 20, QR 19, TS 16 BIO 16 GC 18 OC 16)
I know, OUCHHH I should have studied the sciences more.. I had three weeks, and I devoted the first two weeks to the sciences instead of the last two. Regardless of the reasons, my scores are so-so and my DAT retakes are currently scheduled for July 9th.

I'm not applying to many top-notch schools, just basically all the schools in CA, AZ, TN, OR, WI, MD, VA, and DC. My extracurriculars are strong with leadership experience, even though I could have strayed off campus a TAD more and maybe have more dental-related stuff but I've done a lot of shadowing. My LORs for the most part will be amazing as I know the writers well. I have a friendly demeanor, so as long as I get to the interview, that should be fine. My GPA is ehhh, a 3.12, but I go to Johns Hopkins, where there is no grade inflation whatsoever and the coarseload is tough. My pre-dental advisor says schools should recognize this, but I'm not quite sure, since my DATs don't reflect this. I'm not sure what to think at this point, so that's why I'm on the SDN board!

SHOULD I OR SHOULD I NOT RETAKE THE DATS?
My advisor says if I think I can do better, I might as well. I thought I could, but I am now on Topiramate (story for another day)... side effects that include euphoria, confusion, and drowsiness. I've definitely been feeling the side effects while working full-time. It just took me 80 minutes to get thru 60 minutes of PAT questions. Help? Ayudame?

You're not applying to many Top-Notch schools, yet you're thinking about applying to all CA schools? My friend, I can assure you that UCLA, UCSF, UoP, and USC are all among some of the top dental schools. Also, I think CA students tend to have (on average) higher DAT scores compared to students from other states (Please don't start nagging about this. I'm not suggesting students from other states are dumb or anything). So, your competition will be much more intense here in Cali.

You're not applying to many Top-Notch schools, yet you're thinking about applying to all CA schools? My friend, I can assure you that UCLA, UCSF, UoP, and USC are all among some of the top dental schools. Also, I think CA students tend to have (on average) higher DAT scores compared to students from other states (Please don't start nagging about this. I'm not suggesting students from other states are dumb or anything). So, your competition will be much more intense here in Cali.


You are definitely right about that. Seems like all the people that are getting these 22+ scores on the DAT are from Cali (at least on SDN). Maybe it's just really popular there, as opposed to some of the southern states like TX, GA, MI, etc...Don't seem to find many members from that area. I think Cali schools are prolly a little more competitive than some other schools.

And to anyone thinking of applying to TX schools, go ahead and forget it unless you have REALLy great stats. They must accept 90% from instate, and UTDB, the school Im going to only has 2 students in the whole 4 year program from OOS. Plus, we have a completely different application service, so that's gonna cost you an extra $200 plus lots of time....