If salaries fell to 100K tommorow would you still apply to medical school?

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If salaries fell to 100K would you still apply to medical school?

  • Yes

    Votes: 201 52.5%
  • No

    Votes: 182 47.5%

  • Total voters
    383

surgery2121

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Highly unlikely but could happen.

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Most physicians are not salaried, but let's assume you mean that reimbursements drop severely I guess.

If tuition and everything else remain the same, I would have to have a serious conversation with myself regarding whether or not I should pursue a career I'd be enslaved to nearly until I die. It won't just be me who suffers either; will my potential family stick around as I struggle to make money and pay off loans?

So, I might have to start thinking of other healthcare careers with a lower opportunity cost.
 
Does the tuition stay the same?

yes that is a big question..
if tuition remains
i.e with a average debt of 300k after residency and growing a extra 100k every 6ish years..
well then
100k is more or less way too little.. of the need to pay of loans ..

so for me
if tuition remains the same
and salaries fall
yes
i will opt out of medicine, i wont be working 80 hour a week just to make due with a lower middle class life style.
 
Does the tuition stay the same?

Great question. I would bet tuition would also have to decrease to be subsidizzed by the government if physicians were paid 100k.

Here are a few scenerios:

Salary: 100k - Tuition: Same - Result: Probably pursue different career

Salary: 100k - Tuition: Decrease - Result: Apply to medical school, consider all specialities (3 yr vs 10 yr residency....no brainer...do 3 year and make the same cash)

Salary: <100K - Tuition: Decrease - Result: Different career
 
I am a little materialistic so I would probably switch careers but it wont be easy. I love medicine and it would be difficult to give up. Hopefully Mr. Obama doesnt do this to me and other future doctors.
 
I am a little materialistic so I would probably switch careers but it wont be easy. I love medicine and it would be difficult to give up. Hopefully Mr. Obama doesnt do this to me and other future doctors.

if he does he the united states will have a a brain drain or in this case a physician drain..
 
Yes, then after I finish medical school I would immediately move to another country that values physicians to do my residency.
 
No, I would not! In fact I will never apply to med school...again. Honestly though, every one on here talks about how much medical school costs as a reason for physicians to be reimbursed the way they are, but I think there is a bigger reason. That is 1. the investment of time to become a doctor (which no amount of money can buy back) and 2. the responsibilities required as a medical doctor. Would a 100k drop be enough to drive me away? Maybe. I'm not going into medicine for the money, but proper compensation should be a part of any job, which includes the difficulty of the job and training required amongst other things.

I wish there was the option to select maybe for this poll.
 
Does compensation = Value?

Come on, how many of you understand what it means to "live" off of a salary anyway? If you are working everyday on something that is satisfying and you believe in do you really need a **** load of money to make you feel like you have value?

Do you have any idea how many people are completely content on making 30 grand a year doing something they love i.e teachers, mechanics...

If you are going to medical school strictly because you want to make more than 100K a year then don't waste your time. There are many, MANY things you can do and make much more than this. Why don't you do that?

As far as debt goes. Lets say you don't manage your debt well... and end up $400,000 in the hole. You begin medical school at 21, hell lets say you begin medical school at 30. You have four years of school and lets say six years of residency where you will "live" off of $30,000 per year. You are 36 six years old, $400,000 in debt, and you now make $90,000 per year. (much lower than the average physician currently makes and lower than the dreaded 100K mark) If you pay $30,000 per year to your debt and $10,000 per year to retirement and live off of $50,000 per year -which is a "****-load" of money if you are not a diva- you are out of debt by the time you are 50 years old! That's SEVENTEEN years earlier than the average American by the way. and you have nearly $300,000 in retirement funds, given an 8% return. If you continue to work at $90,000 per year for the seventeen years after your debt is paid and save the $30,000 that you paid to debt per year along with the $10,000 you are already contributing then you could retire, along with the rest of us, at 67 years old with nearly a million dollars in the bank and live off of interest for the rest of your life at the tune of $80,000 per year given an 8% return.

In terms of money that's not a bad life unless you think you are entitled to more...

RB
 
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Does compensation = Value?

Come on, how many of you understand what it means to "live" off of a salary anyway? If you are working everyday on something that is satisfying and you believe in do you really need a **** load of money to make you feel like you have value?

Do you have any idea how many people are completely content on making 30 grand a year doing something they love i.e teachers, mechanics...

If you are going to medical school strictly because you want to make more than 100K a year then don't waste your time. There are many, MANY things you can do and make much more than this. Why don't you do that?

RB

I don't think any one on here is claiming that they are wanting to go into medicine strictly for the money, but 30k won't cut it when you come out of med school 300k in debt, like plenty of people do.
 
Does compensation = Value?

Come on, how many of you understand what it means to "live" off of a salary anyway? If you are working everyday on something that is satisfying and you believe in do you really need a **** load of money to make you feel like you have value?

Do you have any idea how many people are completely content on making 30 grand a year doing something they love i.e teachers, mechanics...

If you are going to medical school strictly because you want to make more than 100K a year then don't waste your time. There are many, MANY things you can do and make much more than this. Why don't you do that?

RB

And yet I wonder, how much do the teacher and mechanic owe in student loans?

If you actually read the thread, most of us are concerned about whether or not we'd still have hundreds of thousands of student loan debt to pay off. NO ONE wants to be saddled with so much school debt they'll have to spend the rest of their lives paying it off, no matter how much they love their job.

Also, most (and, IMO, all sane) people want sufficient compensation for the demanding nature of the profession. No offense to teachers, but I expect to make more money when it takes at least 11 years of education after high school for my job instead of at least 4, especially considering I'll be pulling ridiculously long shifts without the entire summer off. :rolleyes:

While I'm at it, I certainly hope that, in addition to significantly decreased medical school tuition, making only $100K a year should also come with some better hours and a decrease in malpractice rates.
 
Everyone says there's things you can do that'll guarantee you the same amount of amount as doctors. But that's complete bs. Nothing pays as good as being a doctor, which is why it's the hardest professional school to get into. Law won't pay as well for most. Business won't pay as well for most. Computer science won't pay as well for most. Engineering won't pay as for most. Doctors will, on average, make more than all these professions. So what profession is it, exactly, that'll allow you to make more than doctors? And don't say things like working as the CEO of some big corporation and being a movie star, I'm not talking about outliers of a profession, I'm talking about average salaries.
 
yes that is a big question..
if tuition remains
i.e with a average debt of 300k after residency and growing a extra 100k every 6ish years..

well then
100k is more or less way too little.. of the need to pay of loans ..

so for me
if tuition remains the same
and salaries fall
yes
i will opt out of medicine, i wont be working 80 hour a week just to make due with a lower middle class life style.

Average debt is closer to 150k, half of what you said.
 
I would, but I would also be looking to get to Dubai or Australia right after residency
 
No, I would not! In fact I will never apply to med school...again. Honestly though, every one on here talks about how much medical school costs as a reason for physicians to be reimbursed the way they are, but I think there is a bigger reason. That is 1. the investment of time to become a doctor (which no amount of money can buy back) and 2. the responsibilities required as a medical doctor. Would a 100k drop be enough to drive me away? Maybe. I'm not going into medicine for the money, but proper compensation should be a part of any job, which includes the difficulty of the job and training required amongst other things.

I wish there was the option to select maybe for this poll.

so your not going into medicine?
what are you going into?
 
And yet I wonder, how much do the teacher and mechanic owe in student loans?

If you actually read the thread, most of us are concerned about whether or not we'd still have hundreds of thousands of student loan debt to pay off. NO ONE wants to be saddled with so much school debt they'll have to spend the rest of their lives paying it off, no matter how much they love their job.

I read the thread and if you read the rest of mine I address the debt issue.

RB
 
Average debt is closer to 150k, half of what you said.

150k after medical school
after residency it shots up..
either way..
if your going to a good top 10 undergrad or private school you can add 100k
+ 4 years of living expenses..
+ after that you got 3- 10 years more of residency which cracks up your debt up some more..

its debt debt debt..
and anyway 150k is still money...
 
Does compensation = Value?

Come on, how many of you understand what it means to "live" off of a salary anyway? If you are working everyday on something that is satisfying and you believe in do you really need a **** load of money to make you feel like you have value?

Do you have any idea how many people are completely content on making 30 grand a year doing something they love i.e teachers, mechanics...

If you are going to medical school strictly because you want to make more than 100K a year then don't waste your time. There are many, MANY things you can do and make much more than this. Why don't you do that?

As far as debt goes. Lets say you don't manage your debt well... and end up $400,000 in the hole. You begin medical school at 21, hell lets say you begin medical school at 30. You have four years of school and lets say six years of residency where you will "live" off of $30,000 per year. You are 36 six years old, $400,000 in debt, and you now make $90,000 per year. (much lower than the average physician currently makes and lower than the dreaded 100K mark) If you pay $30,000 per year to your debt and $10,000 per year to retirement and live off of $50,000 per year -which is a "****-load" of money if you are not a diva- you are out of debt by the time you are 50 years old! That's SEVENTEEN years earlier than the average American by the way. and you have nearly $300,000 in retirement funds, given an 8% return. If you continue to work at $90,000 per year for the seventeen years after your debt is paid and save the $30,000 that you paid to debt per year along with the $10,000 you are already contributing then you could retire, along with the rest of us, at 67 years old with nearly a million dollars in the bank and live off of interest for the rest of your life at the tune of $80,000 per year given an 8% return.

In terms of money that's not a bad life unless you think you are entitled to more...

RB

the average american owns a house in the suburb and has a family and probably kids that are already living on there own and had there parents pay them through college..
once you put that into this all
the physician wont manage.. period..
 
Everyone says there's things you can do that'll guarantee you the same amount of amount as doctors. But that's complete bs. Nothing pays as good as being a doctor, which is why it's the hardest professional school to get into. Law won't pay as well for most. Business won't pay as well for most. Computer science won't pay as well for most. Engineering won't pay as for most. Doctors will, on average, make more than all these professions. So what profession is it, exactly, that'll allow you to make more than doctors? And don't say things like working as the CEO of some big corporation and being a movie star, I'm not talking about outliers of a profession, I'm talking about average salaries.

thats the us btw..
in europe doctors make less then engineers...
im sorry but we're all worried here..
im worried myself.. because with all this government intrusions.. most doctors are already looking at real estate in Sydney -.-
 
Does compensation = Value?

Come on, how many of you understand what it means to "live" off of a salary anyway? If you are working everyday on something that is satisfying and you believe in do you really need a **** load of money to make you feel like you have value?

Do you have any idea how many people are completely content on making 30 grand a year doing something they love i.e teachers, mechanics...

If you are going to medical school strictly because you want to make more than 100K a year then don't waste your time. There are many, MANY things you can do and make much more than this. Why don't you do that?

As far as debt goes. Lets say you don't manage your debt well... and end up $400,000 in the hole. You begin medical school at 21, hell lets say you begin medical school at 30. You have four years of school and lets say six years of residency where you will "live" off of $30,000 per year. You are 36 six years old, $400,000 in debt, and you now make $90,000 per year. (much lower than the average physician currently makes and lower than the dreaded 100K mark) If you pay $30,000 per year to your debt and $10,000 per year to retirement and live off of $50,000 per year -which is a "****-load" of money if you are not a diva- you are out of debt by the time you are 50 years old! That's SEVENTEEN years earlier than the average American by the way. and you have nearly $300,000 in retirement funds, given an 8% return. If you continue to work at $90,000 per year for the seventeen years after your debt is paid and save the $30,000 that you paid to debt per year along with the $10,000 you are already contributing then you could retire, along with the rest of us, at 67 years old with nearly a million dollars in the bank and live off of interest for the rest of your life at the tune of $80,000 per year given an 8% return.

In terms of money that's not a bad life unless you think you are entitled to more...

RB


Yeah man I plan to dedicate 10+ years of my life into my career so I can be on par with the average joe mechanic.
:bang:

Edit: I am entitled to more.
 
Yeah man I plan to dedicate 10+ years of my life into my career so I can be on par with the average joe mechanic.
:bang:

i'd rather be a mechanic..
less responsibility.. and a much better family life..
sure
a mechanic cant say that he's got a prestigious job..
but you know.. he can still make a decent living..
and in terms of sociologic theory.. the mechanic will have a much better home life then the doctor.
 
The point is you don't get paid crap for
4 yrs undergrad
4 yrs med school
3-4+ residency

I can guarantee all those years (with the exception of undergrad) I am working double the hours of a teacher or mechanic, probably with triple the stress. That means if you pay me per hour, I am 24 years (assuming a student doctors "works" double a mechanic) of NEGATIVE salary behind a mechanic. My understanding was you work your butt off and you get a reward hence doctors being paid a lot.

Now make med school and residency and 9-5 occurrence, I will consider 100K. But if I giving the majority of time, I don't seem why it is reasonable to be paid that. I am not even considering all the stress, MCAT studying, interview costs, lost early retirement fund building etc. in my argument
 
Of course!!! Anyone who wants to go into medicine to have a salary or to build a comfortable life for themselves is a selfish, capitalist, jerk, and doing it for the wrong reasons! 100k is so much money to live on! Ugh, when I'm running my free clinic in a rural area and also working as a trauma surgeon at hopkins on the weekends (and spending vacations vaccinating babies in the Sudan), I'll be so happy with that 100k. That's all I need ... ever.
































:smuggrin:
 
If the salaries fell only in the US, both tuition and debt decreased with it then I would go ahead with my same plans except that when I finish my training I would go back to the UK to practice. If salaries fell in the US and both tuition and debt stayed the same then I would consider going to medical school in the UK(if being a citizen helps with the tuition) and carry out the rest of my plans there or, I would reconsider my career plans and perhaps move onto my plan B career.
 
The way my interests are leaning now it seems there is a decent chance that i might end up in academic pediatrics which would probably put my salary around 110k or something, so no I dont think it would change my career plans at all.
 
I read the thread and if you read the rest of mine I address the debt issue.

RB
It looks like you editted after I posted my response.

$50000 is not a s***load of money "unless you're a diva". It's a s***load of money if you live somewhere with a low CoL, your spouse/SO makes good money as well (or you DON'T have kids), and/or you avoid all other forms of debt like a house, etc.

Also, paying $30K a year for 14 years will not pay off $400K worth of student loan debt unless you magically got a zero-interest loan.

Can I ask how old you are? You seem awfully naive about how much life in America really costs.
 
And yet I wonder, how much do the teacher and mechanic owe in student loans?

If you actually read the thread, most of us are concerned about whether or not we'd still have hundreds of thousands of student loan debt to pay off. NO ONE wants to be saddled with so much school debt they'll have to spend the rest of their lives paying it off, no matter how much they love their job.

Also, most (and, IMO, all sane) people want sufficient compensation for the demanding nature of the profession. No offense to teachers, but I expect to make more money when it takes at least 11 years of education after high school for my job instead of at least 4, especially considering I'll be pulling ridiculously long shifts without the entire summer off. :rolleyes:

While I'm at it, I certainly hope that, in addition to significantly decreased medical school tuition, making only $100K a year should also come with some better hours and a decrease in malpractice rates.

:thumbup:

so your not going into medicine?
what are you going into?

I am going into medicine. Sorry if I was misleading. I said I will never apply to medical school again, which is true because I have already been accepted. :p

I read the thread and if you read the rest of mine I address the debt issue.

RB

You edited your original post, hence people not having read the way you address the debt issue. Next time, just make a new post, since most people are not going to go back and re-read posts they already read once.

Average debt is closer to 150k, half of what you said.

Average debt maybe 150k, but that is skewed by the lucky few who get mommy and daddy to pay for them or the very lucky few who get a full ride scholarship. Unfortunately, that will not be most of us, and many people like my brother-in-law's wife will come out of school $250,000+ in debt before interest starts accruing during residency.
 
Of course!!! Anyone who wants to go into medicine to have a salary or to build a comfortable life for themselves is a selfish, capitalist, jerk, and doing it for the wrong reasons! 100k is so much money to live on! Ugh, when I'm running my free clinic in a rural area and also working as a trauma surgeon at hopkins on the weekends (and spending vacations vaccinating babies in the Sudan), I'll be so happy with that 100k. That's all I need ... ever.
:love:
 
As far as debt goes. Lets say you don't manage your debt well... and end up $400,000 in the hole. You begin medical school at 21, hell lets say you begin medical school at 30. You have four years of school and lets say six years of residency where you will "live" off of $30,000 per year. You are 36 six years old, $400,000 in debt, and you now make $90,000 per year. (much lower than the average physician currently makes and lower than the dreaded 100K mark) If you pay $30,000 per year to your debt and $10,000 per year to retirement and live off of $50,000 per year -which is a "****-load" of money if you are not a diva- you are out of debt by the time you are 50 years old! That's SEVENTEEN years earlier than the average American by the way. and you have nearly $300,000 in retirement funds, given an 8% return. If you continue to work at $90,000 per year for the seventeen years after your debt is paid and save the $30,000 that you paid to debt per year along with the $10,000 you are already contributing then you could retire, along with the rest of us, at 67 years old with nearly a million dollars in the bank and live off of interest for the rest of your life at the tune of $80,000 per year given an 8% return.

In terms of money that's not a bad life unless you think you are entitled to more...

RB


Are you unaware of taxes? Rise in costs of living? How a $90,000 today won't buy the same things after residency compared to what it can buy today as a pre-med? Minimum 6% interest on that 400k debt (which means a minimum 24k tacked on every year so your 30k payment is more like 6k)?


That's great you want to go into the health care field because it sounds like you care. But just don't ever go around giving people financial advice.
 
It looks like you editted after I posted my response.

$50000 is not a s***load of money "unless you're a diva". It's a s***load of money if you live somewhere with a low CoL, your spouse/SO makes good money as well (or you DON'T have kids), and/or you avoid all other forms of debt like a house, etc.

Also, paying $30K a year for 14 years will not pay off $400K worth of student loan debt unless you magically got a zero-interest loan.

Can I ask how old you are? You seem awfully naive about how much life in America really costs.

my parents make about 140k after tax..
we more or less still have to live pretty darn smart.. to pay off the loans on the house and put some food on the table and cloth us.. and car loans..
you need to make a very decent amount of cash..
and 50k is not worth it.. at ALL.
 
You say that now, JaggerPlate. Just you wait and see. People change...
 
Of course!!! Anyone who wants to go into medicine to have a salary or to build a comfortable life for themselves is a selfish, capitalist, jerk, and doing it for the wrong reasons! 100k is so much money to live on! Ugh, when I'm running my free clinic in a rural area and also working as a trauma surgeon at hopkins on the weekends (and spending vacations vaccinating babies in the Sudan), I'll be so happy with that 100k. That's all I need ... ever.
:smuggrin:

I love the sarcasm. There are too many damn premeds out there riding around on their high horse thinking they are all high and might living in there fantasy world of idealism. If $50,000 is a "s*** load" of money, then why don't they donate all there money to charity minus $50,000 to live off of and some for student loans when they become doctors? Eventually they will join us here in the real world...

Can I ask how old you are? You seem awfully naive about how much life in America really costs.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
Average debt is closer to 150k, half of what you said.
at 6.8% interest for 3-9 years of residency and fellowship, it'll pick up a lot of speed. Also, your average debt includes a lot of people who had a lot of outside financial help. If you attend a private med school and take out loans for your living expenses, you're easily looking at $200-250K before any interest kicks in. I have a classmate married to a resident, both of whom went to a private med school. They're about $500K in the hole, according to her.
 
Eh, I plan to go into med school on a HPSP scholarship which means med school paid for. After that, military residency pays 60k a year. Which is decent with 0 indebtness. Then, I'll be doing military medicine for 4 years, which pays 120k a year starting for family med. More for others. Which is about the wage you guys are freaking out about. But I'm not worried about having a good lifestyle with 120k a real/more considering my girlfriend is also planning on being a doctor (but civilian). Regardless, people are acting like being a doctor is some huge financial martyrdom. I just don't agree.
 
Average debt is closer to 150k, half of what you said.

It doesn't help to quote those figures if you don't know where they came from. They are averaging in students in MD/PhD programs, scholarships, and military scholarships. Those can easily bring down an average from 200k to 150k, for the students who paid tuition before it was hiked 5k per year. Students applying now are in a different boat.
 
and live off of $50,000 per year -which is a "****-load" of money if you are not a diva-
You should just stop posting in this thread right now. $50K is a reasonable amount of money for a single resident to live off when they're in the hospital all the time, but when you want to buy a house (mortgage+property taxes+gas+electric+water along with maintenance and the occasional furnace replacement), a car, get married, have children, take them on a trip to a water park some time, and pay your health/home/auto/life/malpractice/disability insurance, I think you'll realize how foolish your statement is.

Yes, you can shop at Wal-mart and Aldi, cut coupons and drive a '94 Honda Civic if you want, but you will be singing a different song at the end of your residency. Plus, I want to know what La-La Land allows you to make $90K/year and not pay anything in taxes.
 
It doesn't help to quote those figures if you don't know where they came from. They are averaging in students in MD/PhD programs, scholarships, and military scholarships. Those can easily bring down an average from 200k to 150k, for the students who paid tuition before it was hiked 5k per year. Students applying now are in a different boat.

Without all those programs you're talking about, average indebtness still isn't 300k. It's just not.
 
Without all those programs you're talking about, average indebtness still isn't 300k. It's just not.

At a handful of private medical schools it is.


Let's say salaries do drop to 100k and the HPSP scholarship becomes incredibly competitive and you find yourself in the unfortunate situation that you do not get the scholarship. However, you DO get into a few private schools. They all have tuition + fees at around 45k.

https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PRI&year_of_study=2010

Books, living expenses, food etc. cost about 20k a year. So 65k x 4 = 260k in debt. Would you go to medical school knowing that you'd be paying 6.8% on this during residency only to make 100k a year afterwards? (still paying 6.8%)
 
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Eh, I plan to go into med school on a HPSP scholarship which means med school paid for. After that, military residency pays 60k a year. Which is decent with 0 indebtness. Then, I'll be doing military medicine for 4 years, which pays 120k a year starting for family med. More for others. Which is about the wage you guys are freaking out about. But I'm not worried about having a good lifestyle with 120k a real/more considering my girlfriend is also planning on being a doctor (but civilian). Regardless, people are acting like being a doctor is some huge financial martyrdom. I just don't agree.

remind me but isnt there a scholarship which they give for people who go into primary care?
since im more or less interested in psychiatry( yes its apparently primary) i might apply for that..
but yes.. i personally am considering hpsp as well.. and you say 4 years of military medicine? i.e on the front? or working on reserves?
 
Without all those programs you're talking about, average indebtness still isn't 300k. It's just not.

I don't recall seeing a single person claiming that 300k was the AVERAGE, but what many (myself included) have said is that 300k is not uncommon.
 
Without all those programs you're talking about, average indebtness still isn't 300k. It's just not.
Factor in the interest payments you'll be making for 22 years. I just talked to an attending who went to CMS and became a plastic surgeon, and he said that's how long it took him to repay his loans. Tuition is a lot higher now (especially relative to physician salaries).

Anyways, no, it's not the AVERAGE amount of debt, but it's an amount that a great many people are graduating with.
 
Eventually they will join us here in the real world...

Most people in the "real world" were raised by parents working more than 40hrs a week each and making less than 100K COMBINED.

I know I was.

My sibling and I grew up in a 1 story house with 1.5 bathrooms, never went on lavish vacations and went public schools.

But compared to some of my more wealthy friends I feel like I have done more fun stuff with my family than they have.

You don't need alot of money to provide a great lifestyle to your kids
 
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