Doing Navy HPSP is still lingering in my mind as I near closer to graduation and application time. I intend to do the longer GMO tour so I can get a residency in surgery (unless I decide to go psych). I'm really interested in being a navy flight surgeon, but had some questions regarding this billet.

What the hell does a flight surgeon do? I'm under the impression they work as a GP for the flight line and occasionally get to go up.

Do these guys get stationed on a carrier as well as a port base somewhere?

I don't imagine they can really be deployed anywhere besides a carrier.

How do Navy flight surgeons differ from chAir Force Flight surgeons?

Any additional info you would like to throw in.

I can't speak much for the Navy because my exposure to their flight surgeons was limited to a month spent with one in Saudi.

A flight surgeon is usually a member of a flying squadron and simply works at the hospital. You are responsible for providing primary care services for the flying community and their families, but this is just one of your duties. In the Air Force, you also manage travel medicine, the STD program, the TB program, and other miscellaneous medical topics. Another duty is to perform occupational medicine inspections of various places on the base. (Looking for safe working environment).

A flight surgeon is suppose to establish a working relationship and rapport with their flying squadron members. You do this by providing impromptu medical advice/opinions, giving flight safety briefings, being deployed with them and flying with them. In the AF, we were required to fly at least 4 hours a month, but frequently did more than that.

All in all this isn't a bad job. All of your extra duties help to break up the monotony that you would have if you only had clinic 5 days a week. At my base, I had clinic a total of about 2 days per week. On other days, I did sick-call in the mornings and other duties the rest of the day (Briefings, meetings, admin duties, etc.) I had one full day a week set aside for flying.

This is a brief synopsis and I hope it helps.

It certainly does, and it appears I wasn't very far off. Do competitive residencies in the AF work like the Navy does ... if you want the big stuff, you need a GMO tour first?

Also, what sort of places can a flight surgeon be stationed? I imagine with the Air Force it's basically anywhere, but is more limited with the Navy, and which of these areas can your family not accompany you?

To answer a few of your questions about Navy Flight Surgeons:

JOB
This varies a lot from squadron to squadron. Classically, your time is by instruction supposed to be divided 1/2 clinical & 1/2 squadron responsibilities. Your clinical time can entail a flight line sick-call, flight physicals, urgent care clinic, a family practice clinic where you'll see children/wives/retirees/etc...the list goes on. At my billet, I do all of the above but I have some friends who only see active-duty Marines for sick-call & physicals - a very limited clinical practice.
Squadron time again is quite varied - doing all of the occupational health & PrevMed items mentioned by FliteSurgn, flying, training your corpsmen, preparing for deployments, WMD/CBR drills, planning mishap response teams, mishap investigations, etc. The amount of time you get to fly & the type of bird you go up in depends on your squadron...helo's & multi-seat jets - you'll fly a lot, single-seat hornet squadron - good luck getting any flights from a friend's sqadron.

LOCATION
Navy flight surgeons are assigned to both Navy & Marine Corps squadrons - thus we're everywhere. We can be assigned to carrier-based squadrons, air stations throughout the US, Japan, Italy, Crete, Diego Garcia, Guam, Bahrain, Puerto Rico. Units in the US often go on 6-month deployments overseas even if they are not carrier based. Units will also go on operational dets - in the last year Iwakuni squads have gone to Korea, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Australia, Guam, Alaska.

It's been a good job - a lot of variety & independence. Two years well spent before I go back to residency & spend the rest of my life being a regular hospital-based doctor.

Any further questions - just let me know.

You wouldn't happen to have a family or wife would you? If so, how have things been in that regard? If not, how do you think things would be if you were married?

I'm very much the bachelor, although most of the other flight surgeons are married +/- kids. With a family, you automatically get 3yr orders instead of the single-man's 2yr tour - they pay extra money to move your family, so they don't want to do it as often. If you are back in the states, it shouldn't be much different from any other GMO tour except for when you go on cruise/deployment and you are separated from your family - unfortunately it's a fact of life in the military.

If your stationed overseas, you can bring your family to most permanent duty stations - Bahrain, Diego Garcia, and Crete are 3 of the exception - although you can pay to bring your spouse/family out to visit for as long as a tourist visa allows them to stay in country. Their are schools on the overseas bases for the dependent children - usually pretty good, small classes - great for young children, sometimes a little rough for teenagers being in such a small school. If your spouse is a professional, moving overseas can be extremely difficult. I know several unemployed lawyers, dentists, MBA's on base because there just are any opportunities for them. Some people use this as a good break to start a family & have children, to do a lot of traveling, or to pick-up an on-line MBA or other degree.

Hope that helps

I just watched the powerpoint presentation at http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/NAMI/SFS%20Recruiting_files/frame.htm about Navy flight surgeons, and what can I say? That sounds awesome! I originally started college in NROTC to become a naval aviator (I didn't think I could handle being premed) but dropped out and changed to premed once I finished my first semester and saw I could do it. This program looks like it gives me the opportunity to still experience it!

I am assuming, however, that the Army and chAir Force programs don't actually teach the student how to fly, given they're only 6 weeks long.

This raises another interesting question. What is the mortality rate of Navy flight surgeons? :D I would hate to die while on a training flight.

I'm excited now! This has given me so much more motivation to work hard. :clap:

FS have been killed in mishaps, as we just lost two Navy Flight Surgeons in the last space shuttle accident, but they are quite infrequent. Looking on the SUSNFS web site (http://www.aerospacemed.org/kia.htm) they only list 4 killed on duty in the last 20 years.

I found that site last night; great info. A couple more quick questions.

For your flight hours per month, do you just ride along or can you fly solo? It would seem a waste of 6 months if you can't go solo.

If you do go solo, what do you fly? I thought all aircraft in a squadron were assigned to a specific pilot.

Your flight time is along with a designated pilot. You only go through the first part of the primary flight syllabus, nothing compared to the full flight training. The 6 months in Pensacola consist of 2 months of training in aviation medicine (similar to the short FS course in the Air Force), then 2 months of Aviation Preflight Indoctrination (API=ground school), and then the final 2 months are for going through the flight simulators & the 7 FAM flights in the T-34C.

If you have dreams of actually being the pilot in command, you could always apply for the Navy's dual-designator program or pursue an FAA pilot's license through one of the Aero-Club's located on many bases.

Well that certainly sucks. What's the point in going through the 4 months of flight training then? This makes the Air Force/Army programs make more sense.

How does the dual-designation thing work? Would I have to apply to both programs separately or what?

Also, any idea if a GMO tour is as required in the AF or Army as it is in the Navy? I have been told that residency in surgical programs or the money programs (anesthesia, rads, optho, etc.) is nearly impossible to get in the Navy without doing the extended GMO tour.

By the way, I really appreciate your assistance. I apply to med school next summer and am already considering the options to pay for it. With a fiancee, I want to be well-informed before making any decision on the military, most certainly which branch. Trying to balance my personal agenda (experiencing unique things, seeing the world) with my familial commitment is proving difficult. Then again, I never thought it would be easy!

JKD

Wow, I'm so glad I found a thread on flight surgeons! :clap:

I'm currently MSI, and my goal is to be a flight surgeon at NASA. I've long thought about going into aerospace medicine through the military first (Navy or Air Force), since I'd get great training and experience, plus the financial support. But since I only want to do aerospace medicine, I'm hesitant to sign up and ultimately be forced to choose a different specialty because the military's needs come first. For those of you who are currently in the military, what's your assessment on how likely I'd get what I want if I join? I'm talking about HPSP of course.

Another possibility I've found is the FAP program. My understanding is that you join during your residency so your specialty is set. I haven't read much else about this program, so I'd appreciate any information anyone has...

Disclaimer: the following is what I remember about all this and may be out of date (or plain wrong). I hope it'll at least get you started, though.

I believe your understanding of the FAP is correct. However, you have to consider where you might train as a FS. There are only a few RAMs (residency in aerospace medicine) available. The NAVY and AF have programs, but I believe you have to be in the service to get a spot. There are also 2 civilian residencies (UTSW and at Wright Patterson in Ohio - I think through OSU). You could do your internship year, match into one of these 2 year civi programs and join through the FAP, if so inclined.

From what I understand, though, if you do a tour as a FS, you'll have a pretty good chance of getting a RAM spot. Most FSs do their tour(s) and then go for a residency in another field.

Again, I think this info is mostly on. Anyone better informed care to comment (as I'd like to know also!).

Best,
P

at least for the navy, don't they make you do a residency in something else before you can do the RAM?

http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/NAMI/RAM/index.htm

"satisfactory or prospective completion of a clinical residency"

The current Navy policy is that Aerospace med is a second residency, after you've trained or are about to finish training in another specialty. This is probably not a bad idea, as a prevmed/Aerospace board is quite limiting in career options, both in the military and especially in the civilian world.

I'm not a flight surgeon, I went for the Diving Medical officer pathway instead (much better, IMHO), but I have heard that the dual designoator program is essentially limited to aviators who have become physicians; they've already had the training for both. In the past, a few MDs have been granted the opportunity to go through the full flight school, but the BUPERS website states that they won't do this for the predictable future. Sorry.

If you go Dive, you become a fully qualified Navy Deep Sea diver, able to jump in on a dive-op anywhere and go to work. I dove as a working diver on Heliox to 230 feet on the USS Monitor recovery (two different dives) with tools in hand. Obviously, during DMO school I didn't learn to weld and some other specialized activities were glanced over, but the qual is the same for equipment, etc. Not a bad deal, all fo the DMOs are "dual designator" in that sense.

Not to disparage the FS experience, I almost went that way myself, and my friends have all loved it. Just putting out the info and a little "HOOYAH DEEP SEA". Either way, can't go wrong.
DD

deep sea diving seems pretty cool, but if you wanted to go the direction of aerospace medicine, don't you need to be a flight surgeon (not a DMO)?

I had heard about aerospace medicine being treated as a second residency in the Navy, so I'm glad Navy Dive Doc brought it up. Is that pretty much a set rule (i.e., one has to be board-certified in something else before even applying to the aerospace medicine residency), or is it more because people realize after they've completed their residency in another field that they'd rather do aerospace medicine? If the former is the case, are there joint aerospace medicine/another specialty residencies, like UTMB's joint aerospace medicine/internal medicine one?

I'd also be curious to hear about how the Air Force system works.

It seems there aren't many Air Force guys around. Curious, I figured it would be gobbled up by lots of people.

lots of links to neat aerospace med stuff (but a number of the links are broken...) at:
http://www.aerospacemed.org/links.htm

USAF School of Aerospace Medicine:
http://wwwsam.brooks.af.mil/web/af/main.htm

"All candidates must apply through the USAF or USA graduate medical education boards after completion of an acceptable clinical internship and two years of practice in aerospace medicine. " --> so it looks like the AF doesn't require a residency first, just a couple years as a flight surgeon.

i can't find a website for the army school of aviation medicine, but if the AF site says they let army docs go there to train...i think i remember a similar deal with the navy. anyone know what's up with army aviation medicine? anyway, there's a couple links to get the search started...

A couple of perspectives from the pilot's view.
1. Unlike in most other areas, the FS has to establish bonafides. We know they work for the commanding officer, then for us, so you do go through a period where they check you out before deciding they can trust you mainly how quick are you to ground an aviator how accessible are you to them. They'll probably be more willing to see you in the squadron bar than in clinic.
2.When we come see you to us it's tie or lose. I'll either leave your office allowed to fly(which I could do before) or get grounded. This is probably primary in most situations.
3. If they do come to see you, you have to assume the worst. A "slight headache" probably means I was up all the night moaning in pain and now hope for a magic pill to keep me flying. When you ground me for tests, I will not be very happy with you(maybe later but not just then)
4. You have to get 4 hours a month. If you like flying it's a great opportunity to fly in supersonic jets or even attack helos. If you don't it may turn out to be your monthly puke session.
The good thing is if you don't like sick people (and I hear some docs don't) the patient group is amongst the most healthy in the world. They'll follow your advice religiously(except where it comes to getting drunk and partying too much) And they will go out of their way to make sure you get back to the hotel when you go cross country to Key west get platered at Ricks and try to hook up with the ugly whatever.
just my 0.002

Jetguy-
It's great to hear things from a pilot's point of view. I'd be interested in hearing stories about any flight surgeons that pilots really liked vs. hated. As a pilot, what do you like to see in a flight surgeon? What will drive you nuts? :)
-m

Easy, I got to through preflight indoctrination with about 15 student flight surgeons and one of them actually ended up being our squadron flight surgeon. She enjoyed flying!! and let it show always out there getting back seat rides, hanging out in the ready room and never let it show she was a Lt. She didn't forget she was an officer, far from it, she had those lines drawn up, but made a point to be a member of the squadron. The result? we took care of her "Hey doc, there's a cross country to <insert great destination here> want to go". And more importantly we knew that she was on our side, if Dr. G grounded you then you needed to be grounded.
On the other hand there was a FS that whined about everything we had to do, whined about having to study for flights, whined about having to fly. You'd better believe that some instructors took pains to try make her throw up. Cruel and childish yes, but reality nonetheless.

I like to believe that if I did go through with the Navy and not chAir Force, I'd be one of the FS you guys like. I started college in ROTC and, while that doesn't mean a whole lot, I do kind of understand where you guys are coming from. I also grew up around the Army, so another plus.

Hopefully one day I'll have the chance to find out.

Someone mentioned that the Navy wasn't doing the dual designator thing anymore. Can anyone confirm or supply a link? I was really hoping to do this .

http://www.persnet.navy.mil/pers4415/Medical_Corps_FS_UMO.htm

"Aeromedical Dual Designator (AMDD) Program:

Former aviators make up small but significant portion of the Flight Surgeon community. Flight Surgeon aviators or physician aviators awaiting Flight Surgeon training interested in becoming an AMDD should review the FY-04 AMDD BUPERS Message. This message will provide application instructions and points of contact for further information. If selected for the program the member will receive the 6AE Additional Qualification Designator (AQD). Current flight surgeon seeking to become aviators may apply to this board but selection and availability for complete initial aviator training is unlikely at this time."

Basically, if you are an aviator and want to dual-designate, the answer is maybe. If you are a flight surgeon...don't plan on it.

GMO_52:

I am an aviator (CODs, C-12s) turned med student. I've read about the dual designator program but can't really see what the advantage would be in the way of billets, etc. I would guess I'd get some time with just about any airframe with dual controls so why would I want to go back through a RAG, etc, when (I'm guessing) I'd be stuck in the clinic for the same amount of time whether I'm dual designated or not.

Any gouge?

Spang

Spang,
Although the current list of FS billets doesn't reflect this, I know that when my FS friends were looking at billets, there were some that were only available to dual designator types. The only one I specifically remember is TPS at Pax River. Hope this helps but it's all second hand. You could call the schoolhouse at Pax and ask to speak to the doc.

Oops, for those of you who see TPS and think office space, it stands for the Test Pilot School.

Shock - shock - shock ---- (Resuscitating an old thread)


I had a couple of q's regarding becoming a Air Force FS.

What is the process/timing in declaring that you want to become a FS (do you note it during the match)?

Can you decide to do FS during your internship year?

If you're serious about FS what do you do for your internship?

I've seen mention that it may be tough to get a transitional spot - what are your options (military and/or civilian)?

Does PGY-1 have to be a transitional year, or can it be in anything?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

If you wanna be a flight surgeon (AF), you don't need to mention it during the Match. You can do any internship, though transitional or one with lots of primary care will help you the most. If you match into a categorical residency, and you change your mind and want to be a flight surgeon, you can do that in the middle of your internship year. That's what I did, having left Pediatrics after my intern year. But, if you know you wanna be one, try to get your Flying Class II physical done as an MS-IV while on your ADT. That will save some time (especially if you need a waiver). I think AFPC will want you qualified and decided by Jan or Feb of your intern year. I pulled together my application in Jan-Feb of my intern year and barely got it though in time to get into the AMP class I needed (I needed a waiver for vision).
You can always go for a civilian transitional spot as military ones are hard to get I believe.

i wear glasses that corrects my vision to 20/20

would i need a waiver?

There are AF guys on this forum.
The AF RAMs used to all be second residency trained, but not anymore.
To the poster who wants to be a NASA flight surgeon, the AF is a great way to go for the RAM. You can serve your commitment and then try to move to NASA. I know a NASA civilian aerospace medicine resident (former active duty military but not a physician at that time) who was doing a civilian residency but there was a funding problem from NASA and he was in jeopardy of getting dropped. That won't happen if you are active duty AF in the AF RAM program. Don't worry, if you really want to be a flight surgeon in the military, you can do it. They cannot force you into a residency you do not want - they can make you do an internship that you don't want, but not a residency. Any internship can count towards a RAM.

SOrry I posted after reading the first page only and didn't realize that my last post was behind the times.
For an Initial Flying Class II physical in the AF, refer to AFI 48-123 Attachment 7. If you have excessive refractive error as defined in the reg, even if it corrects to 20/20, you need a waiver. You will most certainly get one. Most flight surgeons I know in the AF wear glasses.

I have a couple more q's, any responses are greatly appreciated.

1. Are you happy that you did flight medicine?
2. How long were you a part of the flight medicine
program ? 2 years? Did you consider doing more?
3. Is it too hard to get back into a residency after
doing more than 2 years of FM?
4. Did you know what you wanted to do before you did
flight medicine, or did you use it as an opportunity
to figure out what you were interested in?
5. What would you recommend doing an internship in to
prepare you for FM (FP or IM; civilian deferment or
AF)? Any particular location?
6. Do flight docs get deployed more often? Longer
periods of time?
7. If you do 2 years as a flight doc and then do a
residency, do you add time to your payback to the AF?
Does it make a difference if you do the rest of your
residency military or civilian (deferment)?
8. Would you recommend using FM as a backup, say start
an internship in something like IM, then decide to do
FM if things aren?t going well? Or is there an
advantage to trying to do FM from the beginning?

1. Are you happy that you did flight medicine?
YES

2. How long were you a part of the flight medicine
program ? 2 years? Did you consider doing more?
4 years, NO

3. Is it too hard to get back into a residency after
doing more than 2 years of FM?
In terms of applying and getting in, NO. EMotionally, maybe.

4. Did you know what you wanted to do before you did
flight medicine, or did you use it as an opportunity
to figure out what you were interested in?
Used the opportunity to figure it out. Left a categorical program that I did not want to be in anymore (Peds).

5. What would you recommend doing an internship in to
prepare you for FM (FP or IM; civilian deferment or
AF)? Any particular location?
Would recommend FP year or transitional year if you can get it. Military or civilian doesn't matter really. I did a military peds year and was fine. Make sure you do outpatient clinic and some E.R. and urgent care.

6. Do flight docs get deployed more often? Longer
periods of time?
When compared to other types of physicians, generally yes. More so before Iraq days. Can't really say right this moment.

7. If you do 2 years as a flight doc and then do a
residency, do you add time to your payback to the AF?
Does it make a difference if you do the rest of your
residency military or civilian (deferment)?
If you 2 years as a flight doc and the go back to residency, generally o.k. provided you had a 4-year commitment and you go back for only 2 more years. If your residency that you go back to is longer than the balance of your committment, then you owe more (if going back to active duty residency and not a deferement).

8. Would you recommend using FM as a backup, say start
an internship in something like IM, then decide to do
FM if things aren?t going well? Or is there an
advantage to trying to do FM from the beginning?
No advantage to this. See above posts.

How much money does a flight surgeon make? (one that has only completed internship, no residency)

Would a flight surgeon have time to do research? (such as in radiology, in order to make for a more competitive resume)

How much money does a flight surgeon make? (one that has only completed internship, no residency)

Would a flight surgeon have time to do research? (such as in radiology, in order to make for a more competitive resume)


1. money is based on 0-3 salary with extra $$$ for completed internship. you'll also get flight pay and dive pay (if you work w/hyperbaric chamber). Not as much as someone who finished residency, but more than enough to get by. Also, if you decide to do 4 years as a FS and leave for civilian residency, you'd have some money saved up

2. Yes, one of the USAF selects for derm this year was a flight surgeon who was able to do research in dermatology to boost his resume.

Thanks informer. Thank helped. Here's another more specific question. I've heard that residents with no prior service make around 50K. Exactly how much more would a FS who has no prior service and no residency make? Would it be closer to 55K, 60K, 70K, or 80K? I've got a family and I'm trying to figure out how much I'll be able to save up so I can still single handedly support them during my 5 year residency after my 4 years of FS.

here's the site for official defense paychart

http://www.dfas.mil/money/milpay/

As a flight surgeon, you'd be an 0-3 <2 years service
basic pay = 3018.90/month
BAH = depends where you live, but reasonable housing is covered
BAS (food) = 175.23/month
Flight pay = 125/month
VSP(medical officers) = 416.67/month

That becomes ~ 44,829.60/year not including housing
If you stay on base, housing is paid for. Odds are, you won't get on-base housing.

Housing for Vacaville(just outside Travis AFB) = 1723.00/month (w/dependents)
Thus, total year's pay as a flight surgeon living in Vacaville is $65,505.60

This is just a rough estimate. After 4 years as a flight surgeon, you should have a fair amount of money to support your family during a 5 year residency

Just because I'm bored

If you decide to do FP in the military
0-3 >3 years = 3693.90
FP = 13,000/year
Board Certified = 208.33/month
BAH(vacaville) = 1723/month
BAS (food) = 175.23/month
VSP(medical officers) = 416.67/month

= $87,605.56 fresh out of FP residency
As years go by, you'll make more. If you decide to resign, the longer you resign, the more $$$ you'll make/year (12k-14k/year). You'd prolly make 0-4 which means more basic pay, and more BAH pay

Of course, these calculations are with my knowledge, if anyone knows better, please enlighten me :D

I hope to be married by the time i graduate from medschool (if I trick her into saying yes) so this work was good for me in deciding whether to go FS or residency first

If you decide to do FP in the military
0-3 >3 years = 3693.90
FP = 13,000/year
Board Certified = 208.33/month
BAH(vacaville) = 1723/month
BAS (food) = 175.23/month
VSP(medical officers) = 416.67/month

= $87,605.56 fresh out of FP residency


You are forgetting about Additional Special Pay (ASP) ? Paid to all physicians NOT in internship or initial residency. It is a lump sum bonus for which you agree to remain on active duty for a year. Currently it is $15,000/year.
See this Navy pay site more a better break down for Navy doc pay. http://www.persnet.navy.mil/pers4415/Medical_Pay.htm

So add $15K to your total making $102,605.

Also, regarding your post about Flight Surgeons, you only get flight pay when under orders stating: "Duty Involving Flying." Therefore if you have acheived the flight surgeon training, but are not in a flight surgeon billet involving flying, you don't get flight pay. So, even if you did a FS tour prior to residency, your flight pay will stop upon starting residency. Clear as mud?

You are forgetting about Additional Special Pay (ASP) ? Paid to all physicians NOT in internship or initial residency. It is a lump sum bonus for which you agree to remain on active duty for a year. Currently it is $15,000/year.
See this Navy pay site more a better break down for Navy doc pay. http://www.persnet.navy.mil/pers4415/Medical_Pay.htm

So add $15K to your total making $102,605.

Also, regarding your post about Flight Surgeons, you only get flight pay when under orders stating: "Duty Involving Flying." Therefore if you have acheived the flight surgeon training, but are not in a flight surgeon billet involving flying, you don't get flight pay. So, even if you did a FS tour prior to residency, your flight pay will stop upon starting residency. Clear as mud?

Ah, that 15K adds a lot, but how would we be eligible for that if we are still repaying our 4 year payback? Also, "not in internship or initial residency," does this include FS who haven't completed a residency yet? (ie a flight surgeon would make $80,505.60)

Also, according the the dfas website i posted earlier, ASP is for dental officers, and 15k/year is for dentists with 10 year experience, so i'm a little confused now :confused:

I understand your questions, as I had the same, but ASP is a extra pay designed, approved by Congress, to help close the pay gap between military and civilian docs. You get it each July and there's an application for it, that's why its not on the DFAS site for docs.

Yep, just as it sounds, if not on internship or residency, you get the extra 15K a year, regardless of your commitment. Yes you get it while a GMO, FS, DMO, etc, even before finishing residency. Sounds strange I know, but that's how it is.

Maybe GMO52, NavyDiveDoc, or r90t can chime in for verification.

The description of ASP is accurate. Every physician not in internship or their first residency will get the $15k. Flight surgeons and GMOs that have only completed an internship do qualify, but will lose the $15k when they go on to start their first residency. It will resume once that residency is done.

ASP requires you to sign a one-year contract to stay on active duty. This can be served concurrently with any other service obligation. (ie. it does not increase your HPSP obligation).

Do you HAVE to do a residency in HPSP? e.g., can a person serve their entire obligation as a FS or GMO, then go on to civilian residency?

Do you HAVE to do a residency in HPSP? e.g., can a person serve their entire obligation as a FS or GMO, then go on to civilian residency?

No, you don't have to do a military residency, that is not a requirement of the HPSP. I know several Navy docs that did back to back FS tours to burn their commitment, then out of the Navy and off to civilian residency.

Yet if you do a military associated residency, you will incur more obligation. Yet the remainder of your HPSP commitment will run concurrently with your new residency commitment (meaning they are not additive).

Summary of Active Duty Obligation (ADO) for Graduate Medical Education

In a Military Facility (FTIS/OFI). A member shall incur an ADO of ? year for each ? year, or portion thereof, but the minimum ADO at the completion of the GME period shall not be less than 2 years. The ADO for GME may be served concurrently with obligations incurred for DOD Sponsored pre-professional (undergraduate) or medical school education.
No active duty obligation for GME can be served concurrent with an ADO for a second period of GME, i.e., obligation for fellowship cannot be served concurrent with an obligation incurred for residency training.

In a Civilian Facility on Active Duty (FTOS). A member subsidized by the DOD during training in a civilian facility shall incur an ADO of ? year for each ? year, or portion thereof, but the minimum ADO at the completion of the GME period shall not be less than 2 years.

ADOs for FTOS training are added to obligation existing at the time training begins.

In a Civilian Facility In a Deferred Status (NADDS). A member deferred for specialty training incurs no additional obligation as long as a 2-year obligation exists at the time the training begins. Members with less than 2 years of active duty obligation will incur a minimum 2-year ADO.


Here's the link: http://nshs.med.navy.mil/gme/NAVMEDGME.htm#Summary%20of%20Active%20Duty%20Oblig ation%20for%20GME

That is one awesome link. Thank you very much for your reply!

Apologies, getting this info off the various Navy web sites, but I couldn't get a clear picture.

Does ISP only start post-residency, or is this like ASP, given to all physicians not in internship/residency. In other words, is ISP applicable for GMOs?

Thanks much...

I have another FS related question. What is the difference between a GMO Flight Surgeon and a Board Certified Aerospace Medicine specialist, as far as duties are concerned?

I know the AM specialist, with their residency complete, is going to make more money, and probably have higher rank, but how does that affect their scope of practice? Do AM specialists get to fly like GMO FS's, or are they strictly administrators?

In the Air Force, all flight surgeons are required to fly an average of 4 hours per month. Physicians that have completed a Residency in Aerospace Medicine (RAM) tend to be more on the administrative side of the clinic. They will frequently hold the title of Chief of Aerospace Medicine. When I was a FS, the Air Force had a goal of having a RAM in that position at every duty station.

If you wanna be a flight surgeon (AF), you don't need to mention it during the Match. You can do any internship, though transitional or one with lots of primary care will help you the most. If you match into a categorical residency, and you change your mind and want to be a flight surgeon, you can do that in the middle of your internship year. That's what I did, having left Pediatrics after my intern year. But, if you know you wanna be one, try to get your Flying Class II physical done as an MS-IV while on your ADT. That will save some time (especially if you need a waiver). I think AFPC will want you qualified and decided by Jan or Feb of your intern year. I pulled together my application in Jan-Feb of my intern year and barely got it though in time to get into the AMP class I needed (I needed a waiver for vision).
You can always go for a civilian transitional spot as military ones are hard to get I believe.

What if you're in a categorical residency (that's all the AF has for EM), and you want to be a FS after internship? Can you get back into the categorical residency starting pgy2 after the FS tour? Or can you finish the EM residency and then be a FS? Any people with EM/FS experience out there to share?

What if you're in a categorical residency (that's all the AF has for EM), and you want to be a FS after internship? Can you get back into the categorical residency starting pgy2 after the FS tour? Or can you finish the EM residency and then be a FS? Any people with EM/FS experience out there to share?
If you finish an entire residency, the AF will (almost) always make you serve in that specilaty for at least 2 years before becoming a flight surgeon. Alternatively, if you become a FS after just an internship then you will have to serve in that capacity for at least 2 years before being able to reapply to the GME board. Within the military, it is fairly easy to get back at the PGY-2 level...in the civilian sector it is more difficult since they don't frequently have a lot of people leaving after just an internship.

This may be a stupid question but why the hell are you called "flight surgeons" when you don't do any real surgery? I guess it sounds better than Flight medicine or flight doc, but I am missing something here?

From my understanding, the term dates from the World War I era. I'm not versed enough in history to tell you why they called them by that title back then, however.

This may be a stupid question but why the hell are you called "flight surgeons" when you don't do any real surgery? I guess it sounds better than Flight medicine or flight doc, but I am missing something here?

Briefly,

Way back in the day (pre-Napoleoinic wars, middle ages-like) the medics that accompanied armies into battle were known as "feldshers" [sp?] & "chiurgeons" [sp?]. They were both of the "barber" lineage, not necessarily academically trained like the physicians of the time. As you know, the military likes its traditions, and from these roots we get the official titles for certain military physicians regardless of their post-graduate medical training. The term "flight surgeon" is just one example. Another is the title of "battalion surgeon" in army combat units. All of the battalion surgeons I knew were either FP or EM docs.

HTH,

How competitive is Naval FS program? Basically, what are the odds of getting slotted for FS after GME 1, if you are qualified?

I think this was asked before, but I couldn't find a definite answer... are physicians allowed to become FS with a refractive eye surgeries like LASIK?

Someone mentioned that the Navy wasn't doing the dual designator thing anymore. Can anyone confirm or supply a link? I was really hoping to do this .

As was posted earlier, the policy is that dual designator people are aviators who then become docs.....
however, there are some neat opportunities out there depending on where you go. For example, I am an instructor in a helicopter flight training squadron. Our flight surgeon is going through the entire student syllabus and is going to get a helo-only naval aviator designation. They are even talking about sending him through the Instructor Training syllabus and then allowing him to train Student naval aviators.
If you are the kind of flight surgeon that USMC jetguy talked about, then the aviators in your squadron are going to do whatever they can to hook you up with great deals.

Hi all,

I have a quick question for anyone that has gone through water surivival training in the USAF for flight surgery. I'm a fairly petit female (5'2''), i'm a fairly decent swimmer, but my boots, if immersed in water would be a drag on me while in the water. i read the navy is required to swim one mile with the boots on, is that the same for the usaf? because that would really rule me out of flight surgery. thanks, Yellowrose.

Hi all,

I have a quick question for anyone that has gone through water surivival training in the USAF for flight surgery. I'm a fairly petit female (5'2''), i'm a fairly decent swimmer, but my boots, if immersed in water would be a drag on me while in the water. i read the navy is required to swim one mile with the boots on, is that the same for the usaf? because that would really rule me out of flight surgery. thanks, Yellowrose.

I've done water survival at Pensacola and then multiple local refreshers (the short class that sounds like what somebody described earlier). You don't have to be a strong swimmer. They especially would not let a flt surgeon wash out for swimming IMO. Don't worry about it.

I am sorry, does anyone have a reply to these questions?
Thanks,
Crazy Cozak

How competitive is Naval FS program? Basically, what are the odds of getting slotted for FS after GME 1, if you are qualified?

I think this was asked before, but I couldn't find a definite answer... are physicians allowed to become FS with a refractive eye surgeries like LASIK?

I am an instructor in a helicopter flight training squadron. Our flight surgeon is going through the entire student syllabus and is going to get a helo-only naval aviator designation. They are even talking about sending him through the Instructor Training syllabus and then allowing him to train Student naval aviators.

Hey helo-bubba:

You any relation?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/member.php?u=33219

You look very similar!!

Hello and thank you to all you Navy docs who take the time to answer our questions. Here's one (ok, a few) I probably shouldn't ask....

What are the physical requirements for Navy flight surgeons? Are the details of the actual Class-whatever flight physical available anywhere?
Specifically, will any record of mental health care disqualify you automatically, and/or simply make it highly unlikely that you'd be selected in the application process? Obviously I'd guess that if you've been diagnosed as floridly psychotic at any time that might hurt your chances ....

Is there a maximum age for applying to be a Navy FS?

I have heard that undersea medicine folks have a harder-than-usual PRT sort of requirement -- do flight surgeons have any extra physical fitness requirements?

Thanks for any answers/advice/info you can provide!

I understand your questions, as I had the same, but ASP is a extra pay designed, approved by Congress, to help close the pay gap between military and civilian docs. You get it each July and there's an application for it, that's why its not on the DFAS site for docs.

Yep, just as it sounds, if not on internship or residency, you get the extra 15K a year, regardless of your commitment. Yes you get it while a GMO, FS, DMO, etc, even before finishing residency. Sounds strange I know, but that's how it is.

Maybe GMO52, NavyDiveDoc, or r90t can chime in for verification.

Right on. Also, they'll prorate the bonus for partial years if you head back to residency off schedule. Just give 'em lots of warning in special pay land.

How competitive is Naval FS program? Basically, what are the odds of getting slotted for FS after GME 1, if you are qualified?

I think this was asked before, but I couldn't find a definite answer... are physicians allowed to become FS with a refractive eye surgeries like LASIK?

LASIK is "wavierable." Just takes some paperwork, but much less of a problem than it used to be. In fact, a sailor of mine just got a waiver to get into BUD/s despite having LASIK and an ablated bypass tract.

FS is slightly competitive. In my year, there were about 10 more applicants than spots (something like 75 slots, if memory serves). DMO is significantly more competitive. The real competition is within each GMO community for the desirable billets.

If you want to be a Flight Surgeon and do Aerospace Medicine, you should do the HPSP program. It is much harder to get a FAP for Aerospace Medicine since Civilian programs may not offer the same things we do at the Navy's Aerospace Medicine institute. Look up that stuff from the Iwakuni doc. His replies are extremely focused and accurate. We don't know as much about AF and Army, but I do know that the Army and AF place people in the Navy's aerospace medicine residency.


Wow, I'm so glad I found a thread on flight surgeons! :clap:

I'm currently MSI, and my goal is to be a flight surgeon at NASA. I've long thought about going into aerospace medicine through the military first (Navy or Air Force), since I'd get great training and experience, plus the financial support. But since I only want to do aerospace medicine, I'm hesitant to sign up and ultimately be forced to choose a different specialty because the military's needs come first. For those of you who are currently in the military, what's your assessment on how likely I'd get what I want if I join? I'm talking about HPSP of course.

Another possibility I've found is the FAP program. My understanding is that you join during your residency so your specialty is set. I haven't read much else about this program, so I'd appreciate any information anyone has...

There are usually 70 slots for Flight Surgery and 20 for Undersea Medicine. Both are pretty competitive, but you can contact the NOMI/NAMI folks during your internship when they do their visits to the training hospitals in Sept. You can make contact and demonstrate your interest, and if you are qualified academically (and are not a behavior problem), then you will most likely get selected. Behavior problems like whining and moaning, not getting stuff done on time, and blowing off assignments are show stoppers for flight surgery. For obvious reasons. LASIK surgery may be a disqualifier, but depending on what was done, how etc. you may be able to get a waiver. The waiver authority is a BUMED, and he is excellent, and you will get your answer fast. You have to be selected first in order for them to request the waiver.

I am sorry, does anyone have a reply to these questions?
Thanks,
Crazy Cozak

This may be a stupid question but why the hell are you called "flight surgeons" when you don't do any real surgery? I guess it sounds better than Flight medicine or flight doc, but I am missing something here?


Well, the Surgeon-General of the US isn't a general (he's an admiral in the USPHS), and doesn't do any surgery.

Likewise, the Attorney-General isn't a general.

And Army units have (or had until fairly recently) Brigade Surgeons that don't even have to be physicians (it's an administrative position).

LASIK is "wavierable." Just takes some paperwork, but much less of a problem than it used to be. In fact, a sailor of mine just got a waiver to get into BUD/s despite having LASIK and an ablated bypass tract.

FS is slightly competitive. In my year, there were about 10 more applicants than spots (something like 75 slots, if memory serves). DMO is significantly more competitive. The real competition is within each GMO community for the desirable billets.


The AF SG is all happy about wavefront lasik now - they're even considering offering it to pilots with good vision (to make it even better).

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123009161

I've done water survival at Pensacola and then multiple local refreshers (the short class that sounds like what somebody described earlier). You don't have to be a strong swimmer. They especially would not let a flt surgeon wash out for swimming IMO. Don't worry about it.


Water survival was a blast - I did it at Key West. The best part was being left in my raft for a couple of hours....

Water survival was a blast - I did it at Key West. The best part was being left in my raft for a couple of hours....

I really enjoyed mine, yeah. The evenings were fun, but the time in the water was also fun. I liked the little raft, too. It was neat to take pictures from what is basically a really odd angle. It was chilly, but really relaxing.

Do you mean that he actually gets stick time? Or does he/she just ride around in empty seats?

The reason I ask is that I'm going to be entering medical school as an ATP rated pilot after a 10 year airline career in which I've flown a half dozen heavy jet transports and have accumulated around 6000 hours of total flight time.

If being a flight surgeon is going to get me stick time as well as patient care opportunities - sign me up!

LASIK is "wavierable." Just takes some paperwork, but much less of a problem than it used to be. In fact, a sailor of mine just got a waiver to get into BUD/s despite having LASIK and an ablated bypass tract.

FS is slightly competitive. In my year, there were about 10 more applicants than spots (something like 75 slots, if memory serves). DMO is significantly more competitive. The real competition is within each GMO community for the desirable billets.

LASIK is not waiverable for flight surgeons in the Air Force. An alternative procedure is PRK which is waiverable.

I really enjoyed mine, yeah. The evenings were fun, but the time in the water was also fun. I liked the little raft, too. It was neat to take pictures from what is basically a really odd angle. It was chilly, but really relaxing.


I did it in July - it was warm, especially wearing the bag. Just sat right back and took a 3-hour cruise. Got a great farmer tan, too.

Do you mean that he actually gets stick time? Or does he/she just ride around in empty seats?

The reason I ask is that I'm going to be entering medical school as an ATP rated pilot after a 10 year airline career in which I've flown a half dozen heavy jet transports and have accumulated around 6000 hours of total flight time.

If being a flight surgeon is going to get me stick time as well as patient care opportunities - sign me up!

In the Air Force cargo world he generally rides in a jump seat. It may be different in fighters or in other services. There's a pilot-physician program in the Air Force. Those guys are fully fuctioning pilots as well as docs. I don't know if you can get into that through a civilian background, though.

Hi there, Im new here. Greatly interested in the FS program. Just askin...do you need to get a commision either in the Navy of the Air Force before entering the program? I get it here that you just apply after internship year then get into the program no more bootcamp? Thanks...

How come DMO is more competitive than navy FS? FS seem to get a lot of cool perks. But DMO only get to dive? And it's not like DMOs do combat diving, their dives are similar to civilian recreational dives, or am i wrong?

Also if you have 4 yeras for hpsp, could you do 1 tour in DMO+1tour in FS? i.e. 2years each including 6months each in training, or the training would add another year?
thanks

How come DMO is more competitive than navy FS? FS seem to get a lot of cool perks. But DMO only get to dive? And it's not like DMOs do combat diving, their dives are similar to civilian recreational dives, or am i wrong?

Also if you have 4 yeras for hpsp, could you do 1 tour in DMO+1tour in FS? i.e. 2years each including 6months each in training, or the training would add another year?
thanks

the FS and DMO training, as far as i know, don't add up against your ADSO. we had several graduating pediatric residents go to FS billets, and are taking the course soon-- no mention of extending their time in service.

--your friendly neighborhood non-FS caveman

the FS and DMO training, as far as i know, don't add up against your ADSO. we had several graduating pediatric residents go to FS billets, and are taking the course soon-- no mention of extending their time in service.

--your friendly neighborhood non-FS caveman

but doesnt it say that after finishing FS course you have a minimum of 2 years to work for some particular unit? For DMO they said min of 2 years including the course itself. So if say you had 1year left at the end of training, you'd have to extend for another year... Also some in these threads have said that they accepted 3year long assignments as FS. Here is some info about FS: http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/NAMI/Academics/flightsurgeon.htm
FLIGHT SURGEON ASSIGNMENTS

A minimum two-year utilization tour is required after training. This allows the new flight surgeon time to practice and perfect their newly acquired skills. There are more than 260 flight surgeon billets in Spain, Italy, Japan, Bermuda, the United Kingdom, and all over the United States. Normally, a list of available billets is announced about midway through the six-month course.

wow, i just read that you need normal depth perception to attend flight surgeon school?? does it mean that you can't get a waiver if you see with 1 eye?

As was posted earlier, the policy is that dual designator people are aviators who then become docs.....
however, there are some neat opportunities out there depending on where you go. For example, I am an instructor in a helicopter flight training squadron. Our flight surgeon is going through the entire student syllabus and is going to get a helo-only naval aviator designation. They are even talking about sending him through the Instructor Training syllabus and then allowing him to train Student naval aviators.
If you are the kind of flight surgeon that USMC jetguy talked about, then the aviators in your squadron are going to do whatever they can to hook you up with great deals.
How much payback time does he accrue and how long is his flight training school?

How come DMO is more competitive than navy FS? FS seem to get a lot of cool perks. But DMO only get to dive? And it's not like DMOs do combat diving, their dives are similar to civilian recreational dives, or am i wrong?

Also if you have 4 yeras for hpsp, could you do 1 tour in DMO+1tour in FS? i.e. 2years each including 6months each in training, or the training would add another year?
thanks

Dive training is reputed to be more difficult than flight, partly because physically you have to do everything on land and in the water. If you are not a strong swimmer, you should start practicing now with a legitimate masters' swim club. Dive medicine is not glorified scuba, although you certainly will have plenty of great opportunities. There are only 20 selections for DMO and 75 for flight, so the combination of numbers and intensity is probably where the more competitive thing comes from. Dive medical officers learn more about hyperbarics and flight surgeons get aerospace physiology. One group has too much atmospheric pressure and the other not enough, and all of the medical focus follows along those lines. One of my residents got to be the medical officer at the Titanic site one year - one of the bennies of being a certified dive medical officer. After internship you will receive 6 months of intensive physical training, which is the rate limiting step in becoming a dive medical officer. Your typical tour after that will be with the submarine groups - you are not usually assigned to a submarine itself (too small), but to a group of submarines where you supervise the independent duty corpsmen for the most part. You can also be assigned to SEAL teams, underwater demolition folks, etc., but most of the heavy lifting is done by specially trained corpsmen and you do the supervising. Duty stations include San Diego, Pearl Harbor, panama city, New London, Coronado, etc. You cannot go from dive to flight without doing the flight training. The percentage of people who start flight and finish is better than that for dive. Again, look at the swimming and running standards before you apply. A lot of your peers at dive school will be studs (both male and female) and I think that competitive rugby playing as an extracurricular activity is overrepresented among dive medicine applicants.
Your minimal activity tour after 6 months of dive training is 24 months, so most people extend to 30 months to get back in academic cycle. It is also true that any GMO tour improves your chances of getting competitive residencies in the Navy, but your performance in those jobs also counts for something. So - if you whine and moan throughout your GMO tour, there will be other intagibles that factor into successfully competing for anything.
Finally, yes, a lot of people do their 3 year GMO tours, then extend one year and get out. On the other hand, people who do dive and flight usually have a pretty good time and interface with "real Navy" and therefore apply for residencies, stay in, etc.
I hope this addresses most of your concerns!

wow, i just read that you need normal depth perception to attend flight surgeon school?? does it mean that you can't get a waiver if you see with 1 eye?

If you only see with one eye, getting into flight surgery is not going to be your only problem. Most surgical specialties like you to have depth perception, and certainly most of the patients you are operating on also want you to have normal depth perception. There are lots of medical waivers given for medical officers in general, but some conditions are not waiverable.

Dive training is reputed to be more difficult than flight, partly because physically you have to do everything on land and in the water. If you are not a strong swimmer, you should start practicing now with a legitimate masters' swim club. Dive medicine is not glorified scuba, although you certainly will have plenty of great opportunities. There are only 20 selections for DMO and 75 for flight, so the combination of numbers and intensity is probably where the more competitive thing comes from. Dive medical officers learn more about hyperbarics and flight surgeons get aerospace physiology. One group has too much atmospheric pressure and the other not enough, and all of the medical focus follows along those lines. One of my residents got to be the medical officer at the Titanic site one year - one of the bennies of being a certified dive medical officer. After internship you will receive 6 months of intensive physical training, which is the rate limiting step in becoming a dive medical officer. Your typical tour after that will be with the submarine groups - you are not usually assigned to a submarine itself (too small), but to a group of submarines where you supervise the independent duty corpsmen for the most part. You can also be assigned to SEAL teams, underwater demolition folks, etc., but most of the heavy lifting is done by specially trained corpsmen and you do the supervising. Duty stations include San Diego, Pearl Harbor, panama city, New London, Coronado, etc. You cannot go from dive to flight without doing the flight training. The percentage of people who start flight and finish is better than that for dive. Again, look at the swimming and running standards before you apply. A lot of your peers at dive school will be studs (both male and female) and I think that competitive rugby playing as an extracurricular activity is overrepresented among dive medicine applicants.
Your minimal activity tour after 6 months of dive training is 24 months, so most people extend to 30 months to get back in academic cycle. It is also true that any GMO tour improves your chances of getting competitive residencies in the Navy, but your performance in those jobs also counts for something. So - if you whine and moan throughout your GMO tour, there will be other intagibles that factor into successfully competing for anything.
Finally, yes, a lot of people do their 3 year GMO tours, then extend one year and get out. On the other hand, people who do dive and flight usually have a pretty good time and interface with "real Navy" and therefore apply for residencies, stay in, etc.
I hope this addresses most of your concerns!

Thanks! this was pretty thorough. I think based on such description, i like both, but would find fs more desirable. But i also take it that if i wanted to do 1 tour as fs and 1tour as dmo, i'd have to spend 5 years in, since it would be close to 12months in training and min. of 2 years each tour...

If you only see with one eye, getting into flight surgery is not going to be your only problem. Most surgical specialties like you to have depth perception, and certainly most of the patients you are operating on also want you to have normal depth perception. There are lots of medical waivers given for medical officers in general, but some conditions are not waiverable.
Thanks. Yes i heard of that, and I would avoid fields like Ophtalmology or Neurosurgery.. I think in other fields like Ortho you do it based on touch/orientations... But either way it's too early for me to consider any specialties right now and if i had to choose, i'd be more interested in being an internist right now.
Also i can easily put a thread through a needle hole from 1st try. and i read that depth perception is only needed when looking at objects <10ft away. that is why FAA doesn't require depth perception. The only aviation task that a person lacking depth perception might struggle with would be flight formation in jets.

One group has too much atmospheric pressure and the other not enough, and all of the medical focus follows along those lines.
I like that.

Can you do Diving/Flight Surgeon with a foreign medical school MD if you are board certified in the states?

is there a maximum age limit to become a Flight Surgeon? i ask because i'm a non-traditional medical student who won't be the typical 22 year old starting med school. i'll be like 29.

is there a maximum age limit to become a Flight Surgeon? i ask because i'm a non-traditional medical student who won't be the typical 22 year old starting med school. i'll be like 29.

We just sent a 60 y/o through Flight Med. If you are physically qualified, you are good to go.

GREAT! sounds good to me, Is it really alot of fun?

Was it the Air Force or the Navy that sent the 60 year old through ?
I didn't know you could be that old and just start service.

Was it the Air Force or the Navy that sent the 60 year old through ?
I didn't know you could be that old and just start service.
I had a 58 year old in my Navy FS class.

that's amazing! I was thinkiing I might need to rush through this but I've even thought of re-designating active duty and going ahead with Aviation if I can and then going back for the dual-designation program. (I'm a reserve Ensign right now) I just swore in recently, and have not even drilled yet so not sure how they'll take to that but if it is possible it would be amazing and I don't think I'd regret it. mixing military with flying and then adding medicine... now that's a nice mix !!! :)

If there are any AF Flight Surgeons out there, could you write out what a typical day is like for you? Or maybe outline a typical week? I'm an M2 interested in flight surgery...but I'm a little worried about losing my clinical skills. Or maybe more accurately, I'm concerned I won't be developing my clinical skills when my colleagues are out there doing just that. Do you have any insight into this?