What would you do parents? [Archive] - Student Doctor Network Forums

BlackPuma

10-23-2003, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by mommd2b
wathca,

If one of my children is gay, I will support them in the same manner that I would my non-gay children. Sexual orientation is not something that you choose....So...my children would be free to bring their partner to our home for all family events and would be welcomed into the family like any other.

Did we just stumble upon a topic that we can agree on?

kris

kris, has there ever been a topic that we haven't agreed on? you are one of the few people in the lounge, where I'm in sync with ur beliefs..

the only reason I'm bringing this topic up, to sensitive some future parents to the possibility that their child might be gay, and that they CANT change it..

I mean it took my parents 10 freaking years to acccept that it is "not a choice"...at one point in time, my parents told me I was better off dead being gay, and then when I told my best friend I was gay, he freaked out, and told me to never talk to him...

I just wanted to raise the issue with some parents, because all I'm saying, you dont find out whether or not a child is "gay" until like around puberty....

and it turned my world upside down, because until last year, I thought I could be "fixed"....especially if u act very masculine...u have all these misconceptions that all gays are queens....I did...and for the longest time, I would refuse to watch tv shows with gay characters, or acknowledge that homosexuality was a "choice"...

of course, those were also the days were I contemplated ending my life as well....

I just wanted the parents to know....to expect the worst, and be ready for it....I don't think anyone wants to be gay...

if I had a choice...I wouldnt be gay...believe me....gays are their own worst enemy...

and reparative therapy, or "shock therapy" hasn't worked out for most pple I know...and the only group that I think could have a "choice" are bisexuals....

but I'm not remotely bi, and I dont have a choice...

my parents never HAD any exposure to gay people...and they totally DIDNT understand where I was coming from...they were like...why don't you want to be straight?! it was so frustrating..

my parents almost made me marry, and mom even got me a subscription to playboy for a year, and then after a month she was like...so how were the pictures...

and I was like they were nice, but I never knew what great articles they had in playbe...

and she was like :rolleyes:

argh, I wasted 10 years of my life battling with my parents....and got beaten so badly so many times....now they love me and changed...

all I'm saying, is that if ur not ready for this, ur whole world is going to turn upside, and ur life is going to be a living hell...

I don't think its any easier on the parents....

Biodude

10-23-2003, 07:56 AM

Hey dude, I'm sorry that you had to go through all of that...I hope that you're doing okay now.

I was going to come in answer to the thread: I don't see what the big problem is about being homosexual (besides the views of society and Christians :rolleyes: ), so even though I'm not married yet, I would not care what sexual orientation my kids are. I mean, they would be my own flesh and blood, and the only problem I would have with my kids would be if they do something that they knew was morally wrong from their standpoint (stealing, cheating, murdering, etc.) that they had a choice in.

I have always known, ever since I heard about being gay and being lesbian, that it's not a choice, and I'm a bit more informed about it. I'm tired of conservative gay-bashers who are so ignorant as to think that it's a choice. But I'm not Christian, so I really don't see the big big problem with homosexuality.

Sorry for the rant but it just angers me whenever people think that something is a choice when it really isn't! :mad:

JJF

10-23-2003, 08:41 PM

I am Christian, and honestly I'm embarrassed that my church has such a narrow and ignorant view. I have too many gay friends being emotionally hurt by the church's view. I also know that there are many Christians that disagree with the church's position.
I ask my friends why they tolerate it. Why remain Christian when you feel like a major part of you is rejected. Their answer is similar to my thinking. The church has to change, and we are not the ones that are wrong. Hopefully the narrow views of the orgqanizers of the Christian churches will wake up. If not, I think there will be new groups of Christians breaking away from formal Christianity in support of organized groups of Christians that accept and embrace homosexuality.
Sorry to go on and on, but the issue bothers me. My church is an embarrassment on this issue.

12R34Y

10-24-2003, 12:53 PM

I disagree. sexual orientation is a choice. There are countless people who USED to be gay and are not anymore. They have amazing testimonies.................THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS VIEWPOINT!

There has been no research to show any biological differences in gays/straights. people keep on lookin' for anything to hang their hopes on, but nothing has come out of it.

having said that..........i love my child regardless of anything that she may choose.
I also wouldn't not love anyone for being gay either. I don't have to agree with it, but I wouldn't hate them for it.

later

BlackPuma

10-25-2003, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by 12R34Y
I disagree. sexual orientation is a choice. There are countless people who USED to be gay and are not anymore. They have amazing testimonies.................THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS VIEWPOINT!

There has been no research to show any biological differences in gays/straights. people keep on lookin' for anything to hang their hopes on, but nothing has come out of it.

having said that..........i love my child regardless of anything that she may choose.
I also wouldn't not love anyone for being gay either. I don't have to agree with it, but I wouldn't hate them for it.

later

why are you that ignorant? maybe sexual orientation for YOU is a choice, and that maybe you are a BISEXUAL..

but I have nEVER EVER had any kind of sexual attraction TO ANY WOMEN ON THIS GODS GREEN EARTH..

nor do I have EVER had the intention of being with a woman...its seems unnatural...In fact, seeing a naked women sometimes makes me nausous...

so stop propagating your own experience and acting as if everybody else has the same "choice" as you do..

if I had the chocie, I would be with a woman for the rest of my life..
I can't physically perform WITH ANY WOMEN!!!

so how the phuck is that a choice? am I supposed to marry a women, and pretend I'm impotent? is that fair to her?

what kind of dumb remark is this...and there is no research to show there is a difference between gay and straight?

I have news for you buddy..I've done research on schizophrenia for 3 years, and for the past 50 years, there is NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE that shows what CAUSES schizophrenia, and my degree is in neuroscience!!!

does that mean schizophrenia is a choice?

so if you are bisexual and have bisexual tendancies, then U HAVE A CHOICE!!

I DONT!!!

so get that through your head...please provide some "amazing testimonies" and data to back up your claim...

12R34Y

10-25-2003, 06:54 AM

I'll get back to you on the amazing testimonies.......they're out there.

As for scientific background I believe.......scratch that.......KNOW that there is a lot of scientific evidence supporting schizophrenia as a disease........whether it be inheritance patterns, age of onset typically, and biochemical imbalances in certain areas of the brain........

NONE OF THIS HAPPENS IN GAYS/LESBIANS.

it is very much a choice due to environment......how you were brought up, experiences that occured to you etc....

I'll come back with some statitstics (you should understand those since you are a neuroscience major) and show you how absolutely detrimental and unhealthy gay relationships are......numerous partners......much higher mortality rate etc.....than other demographics....

I'm not judging you so don't get so upset.

I just don't agree with you.

later

Wifty

10-25-2003, 08:18 AM

Lets keep this nice!!!

This should be about people sharing their different experiences and knowledge, and accepting that everyone is coming from a different point of view.

No saying that another is ignorant because they thing differently.....calmly educating and sharing info is the best way to encourage people to look at your side.

On with the civilized, thinking persons debate......

Wifty

BlackPuma

10-25-2003, 11:10 AM

12R34Y

10-25-2003, 11:33 AM

I'm a straight male.......i know where you are going with this.

bring it on.

later

BlackPuma

10-25-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by 12R34Y
I'm a straight male.......i know where you are going with this.

bring it on.

later

have you ever had any homosexual thoughts?

immediatespring

10-25-2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by JJF
I am Christian, and honestly I'm embarrassed that my church has such a narrow and ignorant view. I have too many gay friends being emotionally hurt by the church's view. I also know that there are many Christians that disagree with the church's position.
I ask my friends why they tolerate it. Why remain Christian when you feel like a major part of you is rejected. Their answer is similar to my thinking. The church has to change, and we are not the ones that are wrong. Hopefully the narrow views of the orgqanizers of the Christian churches will wake up. If not, I think there will be new groups of Christians breaking away from formal Christianity in support of organized groups of Christians that accept and embrace homosexuality.
Sorry to go on and on, but the issue bothers me. My church is an embarrassment on this issue.

The Bible clearly labels homosexuality as a sin, its not about rejection or being right or wrong. I agree that sometimes the church should be supportive and not turn against them, after all, "let he who has not sinned be the first to cast a stone" , nonetheless, the church should not have to compromise its belief that homosexuality is a sin.

BlackPuma

10-25-2003, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by immediatespring
The Bible clearly labels homosexuality as a sin, its not about rejection or being right or wrong. I agree that sometimes the church should be supportive and not turn against them, after all, "let he who has not sinned be the first to cast a stone" , nonetheless, the church should not have to compromise its belief that homosexuality is a sin.

I agree wholeheartedly, that church theology is against any kind of acceptance of homosexuality...

and I don't think the church should compromise..however, having said that, the church also believes that women should obey their husbands, and that slavery is ok...

the punishment for rebellious kids is stonding to death too..

now how many modern day christians do you see stoning their kids...besides, the problem here is not christianity per se, judaism, islam, budhism, and other religious view homosexuality with disgust..

of course, catholicism, did not embrace the concept of psychiatric disease until the latter half of the 20th century, and until then excorcism was a common solution for pple suffering from schizophrenia..

religous doctrine, also persecuted and torchered galileo galilei for believing that the sun was teh center of the universe :rolleyes:

as such, I would love my children even if they decided to be religious and I would not hold it agains them, since that is a choice :D unlike homosexulaity, which isnt...

immediatespring

10-25-2003, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
however, having said that, the church also believes that women should obey their husbands, and that slavery is ok...

so you don't think women should obey their husbands? and where does the bible say slavery is okay?

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit

the punishment for rebellious kids is stonding to death too..

nope, the bible says to discipline children, not "stone them"

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit

religous doctrine, also persecuted and torchered galileo galilei for believing that the sun was teh center of the universe :rolleyes:

eh, okay

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit

as such, I would love my children even if they decided to be religious and I would not hold it agains them, since that is a choice :D unlike homosexulaity, which isnt...

if you say so...

BlackPuma

10-25-2003, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by immediatespring
so you don't think women should obey their husbands? and where does the bible say slavery is okay?

nope, the bible says to discipline children, not "stone them"

eh, okay

if you say so...

1. Women obey their husbands? why should any female "obey" their husbands? is he a partner, or a slave owner? A marriage is a mutual relationship between two people, any decision made should be a MUTUAL agreement between two individuals. NO MAN has the right to tell anyone women what or what not to do!

So NO, a woman does not HAVE to obey her husband, in the same way, a man does not HAVE to obey his wife...if there is a communication problem, then the marriage is a collision course..nobody should obey anybody....

2. the bible clearly stipulates that rebellious children should be stoned, please refer to Deutronomy:

DEUTERONOMY 21:18-21 NKJ
18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them,
19 "then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city.
20 "And they shall say to the elders of his city, `This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
21 "Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil person from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

3.Here are passages referring to slavery in the bible:

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Listen, I'm not going to make a thread bashing christianity...I think THAT IS VERY immoral...every person is entitled to your beliefs...the christian church, like judaism and islam, budhism and hinduism, considers homosexuality to be immoral..and I agree with you..

I'm not going from a religious viewpoint...if you are going to argue religion with me...believe I'm very well versed on the bible, torah, talmud, koran, avesta, and tons of other religious books..

there are passages in teh bible that are absolutely shocking...homosexuality is brought up at most 3 times in all of the bible...and yet adultery which is FAR MORE is completely forgetten..

besides, stoning of adulterers also exists in the bible, notice how people rarely talk about stoning a women..

as you can see, slavery is clearly mentioned in the bible, so is stoning...what say you?

immediatespring

10-25-2003, 10:30 PM

those are in the old testament, In the new testament, the aim of Jesus was to prevent all that from happening again, so...

and when i mean a woman should obey her husband, of course i don't mean for her to be a slave, there should be mutual agreement definitely. but you say a woman should not have to obey her husband? thats why the value and importance of marriage has gone downhill

Wifty

10-25-2003, 10:33 PM

hey watcha!!!

Great post and great discussion.
I love how you backed up what you said. Sometimes it can be difficult to find references to back up a stance, but when you can find them.....its great to use them.

with smiles,
Wifty

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 01:02 AM

Originally posted by immediatespring
those are in the old testament, In the new testament, the aim of Jesus was to prevent all that from happening again, so...

and when i mean a woman should obey her husband, of course i don't mean for her to be a slave, there should be mutual agreement definitely. but you say a woman should not have to obey her husband? thats why the value and importance of marriage has gone downhill

oh come on, isn't the old testament part of the bible, you said the bible never said children should be stoned...

1) I proved you wrong

2) you asked me for slavery and bible references, again I provided it for you

if you are one of the old "old testament doesnt count" crowd, and I only believe in the new testament, and you are an adherent of Jesus' teachings, then how many times has Jesus refered to homosexuality?

like zilch...can you tell me why today's christians have an infatuation with castigating and admonitioning gays, but apparently have no problem with adultery, fornication, stealing, etc...

with all due respect immediate spring...I showed you the sources that you wanted....on to vagus baby

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 01:14 AM

how on earth do you want me to tackle it, you have given me 5 different resources, each dealing with a different issue, one with genetics, one with reparative therapy (did you even bother to read Spitzer's article and his OWN analysis, on how the DATA IS FLAWEd?)

you argue a point ONE AT A TIME, not giving 10 sources, also you NEVER ever reply to any post, you just post topics and then leave!

In either case, I will post a rebuttal, but if you chose not to tackle it, then forget about me giving you another rebuttal...and I can only tackle one person at a time!

so referring to your sources:

here are your faults about Spitzer's "research"

let me remind you, that these are the type of things you look for in ANY research...so let's review statements given by the author of the article and spitzer himself!

1)But Spitzer's study, which has not yet been published or reviewed, seems to indicate otherwise

fault #1 the research is neither published or reviewed by another source, this is enough for the research to collapse!

2) Spitzer says he spoke to 143 men and 57 women who say they changed their orientation from gay to straight, and concluded that 66 percent of the men and 44 percent of women reached what he called good heterosexual functioning

he "spoke to them" is that his method of testing if someone is gay or straight or bisexual?

what is his method of control? who is he comparing this population to, does he have an "alternate" group of "Straight men and women" who became gay through "reparative therapy"..

if you don't have a control your research is biased...

how do you asses a person's homosexuality or heterosexuality,

best research that I have seen so far is, you attach electrodes to different partts of the body including genitalia, you measure blood pressure, temperature changes in the body in response to:

A) male and female porn
B) male and male porn
C) female and female porn

it is not enough for subjects to say "that I am straight now" how do you know the samples are not lying because of religious pressure?

as an example I will cite two historical research organizations of claims of homosexual men becoming heterosexual?

here were tons of christian ex gay ministries that resorted to scandal, one of the most famous was exodus international where the two leading presidents of the organization for ten years married and lived a heterosexual life, then both of these partners, decided to come out and lived together for the rest of their lives!!!

there are tons of sources which I can cite for that..but one at a time..in reference to your spitzer study, remember,

Of Spitzer's subjects, only 42 percent of men and 46 percent of women rated themselves as "exclusively homosexual" before they sought therapy to diminish gay feelings.

therefore, the MAJORITY of spizter's sample were bisexual, a good article countering spitzer's claim and deciminating his reserach can be seen here, but there are better ones:

http://www.fair.org/extra/0109/gay-change.html

and here read the results of the study:

After therapy, conducted prior to the study, 54 percent of Spitzer's female subjects and just 17 percent of men rated themselves as "exclusively heterosexual"--

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by vagusbaby
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:vzbDsU8P5osJ:abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/gaygene990422.html+gay+gene+study&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

"Where Did the Gay Gene Go?

Study Finds No Evidence of Homosexuality in DNA

Six years ago, researchers uncovered a genetic sequence linked to homosexuality. But a new study casts doubt on that finding. (ABCNEWS.com)

By Claudine Chamberlain
ABCNEWS.com
April 22 ? It?s a seemingly endless debate: Why are some people attracted to the opposite sex, while others are drawn to their own gender? Thanks to new research published today, that question just got even harder to answer.
A team of researchers at the University of Western Ontario in Canada has found no evidence of the so-called ?gay gene,? directly contradicting studies from 1993 and ?95 that pinpointed a specific genetic marker on the X chromosome linked to homosexuality in men.
Whether genes play a part in sexual orientation has long been a hot button topic for people who support or oppose gay rights. If gays and lesbians are biologically predisposed to homosexuality ? through their genes or some other way ? that makes for a stronger case against discrimination.
That?s why the gay community welcomed the 1993 study by biologist Dean Hamer of the National Cancer Institute. Hamer found that in 40 pairs of gay brothers, 33 had the same set of DNA sequences in a region of the chromosome called Xq28.

Dueling Studies
Attempting to replicate those findings, Ontario neurologist George Rice examined the DNA of 52 pairs of gay brothers, and found that their Xq28 sequences were no more similar than what might be expected from sheer chance.
Rice?s results appear in today?s edition of the journal Science.
?What we have here is a scientific controversy,? says Michael Bailey, a Northwestern University psychologist who has studied homosexuality in twins. The latest research effort ?is a good study and it certainly raises questions about whether Hamer was right, but I don?t think it proves him wrong either.?
That?s because both studies were relatively small, and because specific genes are difficult to find. ?A definitive study,? says Bailey, ?would entail substantially larger numbers of people.?

Maybe the Gene Is Elsewhere
Rice himself doesn?t discount the idea of a genetic link to homosexuality. He just doesn?t think Xq28 is the spot. ?The search for genetic factors in homosexuality should continue,? he says, adding that he?s currently searching for other genes that could be linked to sexuality.
But Hamer stands by his earlier findings, especially since two subsequent studies (one of which has not yet been published), found the same thing. ?All this proves is that not every case of homosexuality is because of Xq28,? he asserts. ?I expect we?ll find that many genes are involved. One of them will be on Xq28.?

Biological Links to Homosexuality

1991: Northwestern University's Michael Bailey and others find greater homosexual correlation among identical twins than fraternal.
1991: Salk Institute?s Simon LeVay discovers that a tiny section of the hypothalamus in the brain is smaller in gay men than in straight men.
1992: Laura Allen and Richard Gorski of the University of California at Los Angeles discover that a section of the fibers connecting the right and left hemispheres of the brain is one-third larger in gay men than straight men.
1993: National Cancer Institute?s Dean Hamer study finds possible location of ?gay gene? on the X chromosome, inherited from mothers.
1995: Geneticists Shang-Ding Zhang and Ward Odenwald of the National Institutes of Health discover that a single transplanted gene can cause fruit flies to display homosexual behavior.
1995: Hamer repeats his 1993 findings with a follow-up study.

Twin studies, like those done by Bailey, have fueled the search for such genes. In 1991, he studied the twin brothers of gay men and found that 52 percent of identical twins were also gay, while only 22 percent of fraternal twins were. Among women, 48 percent of identical twins were also lesbian, while the rate dropped to 16 percent for fraternal twins.
As with all twin studies, a greater similarity among identical twins usually indicates a genetic link. But because the connection wasn?t 100 percent, researchers know that genes aren?t the whole picture. Environment ? family, friends, society ? could also be an important influence.

Does It Really Matter?
Gene or no gene, gay rights groups maintain that what ?causes? homosexuality isn?t really important. ?The vast majority of gay people will tell you that same-sex orientation is an innate part of who you are and is not changeable,? says David Smith, a spokesperson for Human Rights Campaign. ?But in the final analysis, is really shouldn?t matter. Public policy should treat all people equally and fairly.?
Conservative groups, on the other hand, say Rice?s study proves that homosexuality is a learned, chosen behavior that doesn?t deserve legal protection.
?Dean Hamer?s study has been used by gay activists for years,? says Yvette Cantu, policy analyst for the Family Research Council. ?We?re saying you can?t grant someone special minority status for something that?s just a sexual behavior, a choice.?
For now, though, the scientific debate is far from over. Sex, says Hamer, ?is one of the most interesting things we do. And biologically, it?s the most important thing we do.? That?s why we?ll always wonder why some people do it differently than others."

are you even reading your own articles, or do you like to post random things?

read this paragraph about BOTH researches conducted for and against the "gay gene"

?What we have here is a scientific controversy,? says Michael Bailey, a Northwestern University psychologist who has studied homosexuality in twins. The latest research effort ?is a good study and it certainly raises questions about whether Hamer was right, but I don?t think it proves him wrong either.?

That?s because both studies were relatively small, and because specific genes are difficult to find. ?A definitive study,? says Bailey, ?would entail substantially larger numbers of people.?

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 01:02 AM

and this is a relatively new research off the press from UCLA..

they have not "found a gay gene either"...however the results are rather interesting..

New Gay Gene Evidence
by Matt Johns
(Los Angeles, California) Evidence continues to mount that sexuality is genetically controlled. The latest findings were reported today by researchers from the University of California.

The scientists, in a statement, said that sexual identity is "hard-wired" into the genes.

"Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome," said Dr. Eric Vilain, a genetics professor at the UCLA School of Medicine.

Vilain and his team of researchers have identified 54 genes in mice that may explain why male and female brains look and function differently. They used two separate genetic testing methods to compare the production of genes in male and female brains in embryonic mice -- long before the animals developed sex organs.

They discovered 54 genes produced in different amounts in male and female mouse brains. Eighteen of the genes were produced at higher levels in the male brains; 36 were produced at higher levels in the female brains.

"We discovered that the male and female brains differed in many measurable ways, including anatomy and function." Vilain said. Among the differences, the two hemispheres of the brain appeared more symmetrical in females than in males. According to Vilain, the symmetry may improve communication between both sides of the brain, leading to enhanced verbal expressiveness in females.

Vilian warns though that finding the exact gene that results in homosexuality will require considerable more research. He said that if future research does determine conclusively that homosexuality is genetic and not a choice, the implications would be huge.

"If it's not a choice, you can't have the typical conservative argument that says you choose this lifestyle so you have to bear the consequences and society has no reason to basically give you any rights because you choose to be an outcast," Vilain said.

"If you can't do anything about it, therefore you should have all the rights to be integrated into society and have the same rights as heterosexuals in terms of marriage and the rights to inheritance."

Vilain said the initial emphasis will be on determining the origin of transgenderism. He says the research may help doctors determine the proper gender assignment of babies born with ambiguous genitalia.

"If physicians could predict the gender of newborns with ambiguous genitalia at birth, we would make less mistakes in gender assignment," Vilain said.

Typically such a baby is assigned a gender and in many places in North America genital surgery is performed to make the genitals appear to conform to the gender selected.

But many grow up very unhappy, feeling the surgery was harmful by assigning them a gender they didn't feel was appropriate.

The Human Rights Campaign welcomed the results but said that laws should protect all Americans equally, regardless of the genetic basis for being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender.

"This study is part of a growing body of evidence showing that it is likely that sexual orientation and gender identity are genetically based," said Elizabeth Birch, HRC's executive director.

"Although further research will be conducted by this team, at the end of the day, the question of nature versus nurture shouldn't matter. Laws in America should protect everybody equally, regardless of what causes differences of sexual orientation or gender identity."

Last week, British psychologists also said they have found strong evidence to support the theory that a person's sexuality is "hard-wired" into the brain before birth.

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 01:04 AM

this is also from a student's paper at UCLA...

read the research studies, namely:

Dean Hamer
Simon LeVay
Bailey and Pillard
Drosophila melanogaster

of course there are other evidence that homosexual brain and heterosexual brain have different morphologies as well..

http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~kmayeda/HC92/hc92.html

immediatespring

10-26-2003, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
oh come on, isn't the old testament part of the bible, you said the bible never said children should be stoned...

1) I proved you wrong

2) you asked me for slavery and bible references, again I provided it for you

if you are one of the old "old testament doesnt count" crowd, and I only believe in the new testament, and you are an adherent of Jesus' teachings, then how many times has Jesus refered to homosexuality?

like zilch...can you tell me why today's christians have an infatuation with castigating and admonitioning gays, but apparently have no problem with adultery, fornication, stealing, etc...

On the contrary wacha, the bible also says to discipline children. the old testament is very much a part of the bible, it allows us to see what would have continued to happen had Jesus not come to save us. I am not trying to preach to you about christianity, neither am i telling you from my own opinion whether homosexuality is wrong or not so stop being so darn defensive. I would show you bible scriptures, but what would be the point, you are not a christian. and no i am not one of the "old testament crowd" or whatever, but it is CLEARLY stated in the bible that homosexuality is a sin, and in the new testament too.

...and you asked for it:

Matthew 15
19:For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

1 Corinthians 6:13
"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"?but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
19: Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

i don't know where you heard that christianity does not admonish stealing etc, the only diffrence is that homosexuality is being accepted, adultery , stealing and the others are still sin and everyone knows that

immediatespring

10-26-2003, 03:41 AM

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
then how many times has Jesus refered to homosexuality?

like zilch...

1 Corinthians 6

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

Romans 1
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by vagusbaby
http://www.queerbychoice.com/gaygenelinks.html

http://eserver.org/bs/14/Sartelle.html

Rejecting the Gay Brain
(and choosing homosexuality)

Joe Sartelle
Bad Subjects, Issue # 14, May 1994

"... The biological account is being accepted more and more as a kind of common sense, something which most people take for granted. The prevailing wisdom is increasingly that it is no longer a question of whether homosexuality is caused by biological differences, but only a matter of when the full proof of such differences will be available.

[...]

But as any racial or ethnic minority will tell you, just because you didn't "choose" your identity by no means guarantees that people will tolerantly accept your identity. And I think that most gays and lesbians know this, even when they are defending themselves with the no-choice argument. So why do so many cling to it as their best hope? Whenever we find people repeatedly insisting upon something, we need to ask just who it is they're seeking to convince. Think for a moment about the implications of the very language of the no-choice defense. To justify a behavior by saying "I can't help it" is to imply that if you could help it, you would. I think that the popularity of biological accounts of homosexual desire among gay people has to be understood as a way of coping with deeply-rooted homophobia. What else can it be when we defend ourselves by saying things like, "Do you think anybody would choose to be this way?" This is a defensive position, one that implicitly accepts that there is something wrong with homosexuality, that it is indeed an abnormality which demands to be explained. It suggests that if we did have a choice in the matter, we would choose to be heterosexual. The position is both totally understandable and completely unacceptable.

[...]

Those are the difficult questions confronting a society in which diversity is valued and old normative standards are falling down all around us. The fantasy of the essentially and biologically homosexual body is, among other things, a fantasy about abdication of responsibility for our feelings and actions. It is about the wish to escape from responsibility, to let someone or something else make the decisions for us -- in this case, by holding our biology responsible for our behavior. It is dangerous because it encourages us to forget that what is most human is our ability to choose what we do with our bodies, sexually or otherwise. Since homosexual desire is perfectly normal, there is no need to account for it, and there is no reason to repress it. Who cares what causes it? Just say yes. Homosexual relations should be accepted for the same reasons as any other consensual form of sexual expression: as an affirmation of our human freedom, and a celebration of the pleasures of being a body among other bodies. "

vagus baby, thank you for replying with the same article adn giving me an "editorial comment"..this has no basis in scientific merit....it's just abut some random person making editorial comments about minority and homosexuality..

I've seen studies in animals as well where the animal homosexula brain is DIFFERENT from the heterosexual brain...I spent 4 years getting my neuro degree as well have done research in MRI and neuroimaging...

and when I read papers, I tend to read them on pubmed...not ABC...thanks for making a valiant attempt at giving me editorial comments...as you can see the spizter article and the ones after that had no basis, even their own article dismissed their claims and results..

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by immediatespring
On the contrary wacha, the bible also says to discipline children. the old testament is very much a part of the bible, it allows us to see what would have continued to happen had Jesus not come to save us. I am not trying to preach to you about christianity, neither am i telling you from my own opinion whether homosexuality is wrong or not so stop being so darn defensive. I would show you bible scriptures, but what would be the point, you are not a christian. and no i am not one of the "old testament crowd" or whatever, but it is CLEARLY stated in the bible that homosexuality is a sin, and in the new testament too.

...and you asked for it:

Matthew 15
19:For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

1 Corinthians 6:13
"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"?but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
19: Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

i don't know where you heard that christianity does not admonish stealing etc, the only diffrence is that homosexuality is being accepted, adultery , stealing and the others are still sin and everyone knows that

with all due respect, nnone of the corinthian passages that you used here used the word "homosexual" in them....it used the word sexual immorality, and that is extremely vague and open to interpretation...

besides, is not polygamy a common practice of the bible? half the prophets of the bible were polygamists, just look at abraham...

I will reply to your other post...

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by immediatespring
1 Corinthians 6

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

Romans 1
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

read my thread way way up, I said I knwo for a fact that the bible says homosexuality is a sin...

and the number of times that homosexuality appeared in the bible is by FAR LESS than adultery, divorce, stealing and murdering etc etc

also please don't forget some other archaic laws in the bible as well...it seems as if today's christians like to pick and chose which verses to follow, as such please read below:

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)

according to this passage, if a woman is raped she has to marry the rapist

and this one also pertains to raping the women of an "enemy"...while the women is grieving for her parents, you have permission to keep her in your household for a month...wow

Suppose you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God hands them over to you and you take captives. And suppose you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her and want to marry her. If this happens, you may take her to your home, where she must shave her head, cut her fingernails, and change all her clothes. Then she must remain in your home for a full month, mourning for her father and mother. After that you may marry her. But if you marry her and then decide you do not like her, you must let her go free. You may not sell her or treat her as a slave, for you have humiliated her. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NLT)

so now the bible has a problem with homosexuals as well? now you know why some people dont follow the teachings of the bible? :D

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 10:35 AM

since you provided passages from corinthians...I wish to bring some other passages from corinthians as well...so you won't keep on saying that half of my quotes are from the "old testament"

1) Christians are not supposed to take their disputes before non-Christian courts or judges. (?If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?? -- 1 Corinthians 6:1 NIV

and here are more terrific passages of the bible:

lets see you dispute them as well...according to the bible, christians should kill all non-christians as well....

Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn?t ?receive? the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don?t believe in him. Jude 5

Ignorance is bliss. Christians should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians:

Don?t associate with non-Christians. Don?t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Judge other religions for not following Christ:

Whoever denies ?that Jesus is the Christ? is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are ?of God;? everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is ?a deceiver and an anti-Christ? 2 John 7

Anyone who doesn?t share Paul?s beliefs has ?an evil heart.? Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of ?the synagogue of Satan.? Revelations 2:9, 3:9

and more:

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33

as you can see I included passages from the new testament as well :)

immediatespring

10-26-2003, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit

and the number of times that homosexuality appeared in the bible is by FAR LESS than adultery, divorce, stealing and murdering etc etc

i thought we were arguing about homosexuality not christianity, and your above statement, well thought :laugh:

whatever watcha, you asked for opinions yet you can't seem to respect other people's opinion, if you want to be gay, hey, just in case you forgot, you live in America, land of immora... oops sorry i mean, eh freedom :)

DAL

10-26-2003, 12:47 PM

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by immediatespring
i thought we were arguing about homosexuality not christianity, and your above statement, well thought :laugh:

whatever watcha, you asked for opinions yet you can't seem to respect other people's opinion, if you want to be gay, hey, just in case you forgot, you live in America, land of immora... oops sorry i mean, eh freedom :)

respecting other people's opinions? I respect the fact that you think gays are going to hell or not, it doesn't matter to me...

1) I created this thread to create a discussion with parents
2) someone brought up christianity
3) I said whatever christianity thinks is irrelevant, they also think stoning children, and slavery is ok
4) you said it was not true
5) I showed you passage which showed that it was INDEED true
6) you said, it was old testament doesnt count, and gave me passages from romans and corinthians
7) so I gave you new passages from the new testament
8) you can't back up your "holy book"...so you say, I don't respect your opinions or beliefs :rolleyes:

I'm glad you are not applying to law school. I'm not criticizing christianity...I'm criticizing christians who "thinkg" they are morally superior to everyone else, by puttind down gays for instance..

it's funny, when I show you passages which are frightening in the bible, absolutely absolutely frightening, you accuse me of not respecting other people's opinions!

listen, if you are going to use christianity as a line of defense by saying homosexuality is wrong, then I can use your own book, passage and verse to show that christianity SHOULD not be a moral authority in judging other people...I've only USED ur own bible against you...that HAS nothing to do with respecting pple's beliefs or not..

my roomate is a strict christian, goes to church every sunday...he hasnt the slightest clue that I'm gay, since I dont bring gay friends home...but that DOESNT mean I dont respect or love him as a friend..

and if you ave a problem with american being the land of the "immoral" then I suggest you move to another country where your views are more accepted, peace :p

funny, how you can't defend your views, you just make a statement and then run :D

oh and vagus baby, keep posting the same article buddy ;)

Teufelhunden

10-26-2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
do you automatically assume that all homosexual s have a super alternative massively promiscous lifestyle?

I'm not at all attacking your beliefs...I'm just curious as to why you think homosexuals tend to have a massive promiscuous lifestyle? (of course, maybe i'm interpreting wrong) but isn't a massive promiscous lifestyle an individual thing rather than a sexual orientation issue?

Watcha...now you know I'm not anti-gay at all, but I've got to call you on this one. The male homosecual community is very promiscous, hence our inability to get the 40,000/yr HIV new infx rate to budge (it's been holding steady at ~40,000 for years.)

I've done a lot of reading on this issue (took an undergrad AIDS course), and there's overwhleming evidence of the massive pomiscuity among male homosexuals.

Now listen, I'm not judging promiscuity in anyway...it's none of my business how promiscous anyone is...doesn't affect me in any way; however, I can see how people might form generalizations about gay lifestyles.

Again, I don't condemn homosexuals for being promiscous...again, that's their business....I do however condemn their lack of safety which contributes so much to the HIV infx rate. Just within the past two weeks I've seen 2 new dx's of HIV infx, and it's very sad. I don't understand this whole bare-back movement thing that apparently started in S. Florida and now has apparently spread to NYC and San Fran...I just don't understand why the gay cmty is so self-destructive in this regard.

Sorry, I got a little off subject...I'll save it for another thread.

Teufelhunden

10-26-2003, 01:02 PM

immediatespring

10-26-2003, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by DAL
watcha didn't say a word about the bible or christianity until you brought it up. even then, he only used biblical passages to assert certain christians only use the bible to defend their personal beliefs, but ignore many other parts of the bible.

yeah but my reply wasn't to watcha post.... was it?

Teufelhunden

10-26-2003, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by 12R34Y
I disagree. sexual orientation is a choice.

Oh really. So do you remember the day when you "decided" to be straight? I very much doubt it.

I've never met anyone who made this decision, because it's NOT A DECISION! It's something that just happens...one day we realize we're attracted to one sex or another (or both!)...and that's that.

There's no changing your sexuality. People that 'converted' or 'switched' or whatever are simply bisexual.

Again, discovering one's sexuality is not some decision we all make...it's something that just happens to you.

immediatespring

10-26-2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
respecting other people's opinions? I respect the fact that you think gays are going to hell or not, it doesn't matter to me...

1) I created this thread to create a discussion with parents
2) someone brought up christianity
3) I said whatever christianity thinks is irrelevant, they also think stoning children, and slavery is ok
4) you said it was not true
5) I showed you passage which showed that it was INDEED true
6) you said, it was old testament doesnt count, and gave me passages from romans and corinthians
7) so I gave you new passages from the new testament
8) you can't back up your "holy book"...so you say, I don't respect your opinions or beliefs :rolleyes:

I'm glad you are not applying to law school. I'm not criticizing christianity...I'm criticizing christians who "thinkg" they are morally superior to everyone else, by puttind down gays for instance..

it's funny, when I show you passages which are frightening in the bible, absolutely absolutely frightening, you accuse me of not respecting other people's opinions!

listen, if you are going to use christianity as a line of defense by saying homosexuality is wrong, then I can use your own book, passage and verse to show that christianity SHOULD not be a moral authority in judging other people...I've only USED ur own bible against you...that HAS nothing to do with respecting pple's beliefs or not..

my roomate is a strict christian, goes to church every sunday...he hasnt the slightest clue that I'm gay, since I dont bring gay friends home...but that DOESNT mean I dont respect or love him as a friend..

and if you ave a problem with american being the land of the "immoral" then I suggest you move to another country where your views are more accepted, peace :p

funny, how you can't defend your views, you just make a statement and then run :D

oh and vagus baby, keep posting the same article buddy ;)

i actually do live in another country, but thanks for the advice :D christianity should not be a moral authourity to judge people, it should be a moral authourity for christians to adhere to, and since you are not.... i can't back up my holy bible? well darn, i have no idea what i posted earlier but to itirate

1) my inital reply was to another post
2) i have no judgement or whatever towards gay people but i cannot ignore the fact that..
3) i am a christian and my beliefs dictate certain things that i choose to believe in
4) you don't have to agree with those things, you are not a christian
5) in summarisation, my original post was not targeted at you :rolleyes:

Teufelhunden

10-26-2003, 01:09 PM

immediatespring

10-26-2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
The bible also states that slaves should obey their masters.
The bible states that mixing different fabrics is a sin.
Give it a rest.
Oh...let me guess...that's one of the parts thats not to be taken literally, right? How convenient that you all can decide which parts of the bible you choose to take literally and which you choose to ignore.
Oh, BTW...how many times did Jesus mention homosexuality as being a sin?

well, the bible also says that love your neighbour as you love yourself, it also says bless those who curse you, it says ...it says.... it says... what was your point? how many times did Jesus mention homosexuality? well hold on, i am going to count that, becuase when i get to heaven, thats one of the first questions Jesus will ask me, k?

again, this was not intended as an attack against watcha, MY ORIGINAL POST WAS IN REPLY TO ANOTHER CHRISTIAN'S POST, but either way , bring it on...

Teufelhunden

10-26-2003, 01:16 PM

DAL

10-26-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
Damn...religious whackos need to get a life and quit worrying about what everyone else is doing in their bedrooms.
Very true Teuf. They need to quit worrying about it, and they need to quit JUDGING it!

Teufelhunden

10-26-2003, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by immediatespring
well, the bible also says that love your neighbour as you love yourself, it also says bless those who curse you, it says ...it says.... it says... what was your point?

My point is that it's very convenient how you get to pick and choose which biblical quotes are to be taken literally versus which ones can be completely ignored.

Funny how that works. Where do you get this secret decoder ring that allows you to discard the fabric-mixing quotes, but not the homosexuality-bashing ones?

How convenient that you can simply dismiss the slavery-condoning passages, but take the homosexuality passages literally.

Crazy.

Nuts.

immediatespring

10-26-2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
Again, the question was how many times did Jesus mention homosexuality? The answer is still zero. Jesus didn't write Corinthians. Wasn't that one of Paul's letters (?)

Anyway, homosexuality was never addressed by Jesus...read to the Gospels...it was never mentioned.

God...if you listened to all the religious nut jobs (Fawell, et. al), you'd think the entire New Testament was dedicated to bashing homosexuality!

I hate it when Christians come across so high-and-mighty with all these biblical quotes condemning "deviant" sexual behavior. I guess all these people never had premarital sex, or masterbated, or had oral sex....all things which are strictly prohibited.

Damn...religious whackos need to get a life and quit worrying about what everyone else is doing in their bedrooms.

well sheesh, don't get your panties in a bunch ...
how many times did Jesus mention Homosexuality? again, refer to my answer above :D no i don't listen to any religious nutjobs, no i am not bashing homosexuality, or is stating my belief bashing homosexuality? i never said watcha was going to hell, did i?

excuse me, but i sincerely apologise if i came across as high and mighty because that was and is not my intention at all, thats why i want to say again that my original post was directed at another christian's post, but about being high and mighty, if obeying the word of God makes me high and mighty, well then gosh darn it, i do want to be high and mighty! but i am not becuase just like everyone, i sin too... yes :eek:

and of course religious whackos need to quit worrying about what people in their bedrooms do, thats their business, however i am not a religious whacko and i was not worrying about what people do in their bedroom, gosh that would just be disgusting (if i may say... :) )

Teufelhunden

10-26-2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by immediatespring
how many times did Jesus mention homosexuality? well hold on, i am going to count that, becuase when i get to heaven, thats one of the first questions Jesus will ask me, k?

:confused:

WHAT?!?!?

Is it just me, or is this just complete gibberish crazy-talking?!?

immediatespring

10-26-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
:confused:

WHAT?!?!?

Is it just me, or is this just complete gibberish crazy-talking?!?

i thought we could keep this civilised, apparently not...

immediatespring

10-26-2003, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Teufelhunden

How convenient that you can simply dismiss the slavery-condoning passages, but take the homosexuality passages literally.

Crazy.

Nuts.

i didn't dismiss it, i said thats why Jesus came in the new testaments, why do you have to resort to name-calling to make your point? i mean you have referred to christians as whackos, crazy, nuts, and .... and yet we should stop judging?

12R34Y

10-26-2003, 03:38 PM

This is just like an episode of West Wing. Watcha could be President Bartlett. Read the attached commentary on one of the shows where the president ignorantly blasts the bibles statements on slavery, homosexuality, stoning etc....

hilarious.

read it and see how all of your anit bible arguments can be destroyed quite simply with even a mild understanding of the bible.

enjoy

http://www.equip.org/free/DP801.pdf

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by 12R34Y
This is just like an episode of West Wing. Watcha could be President Bartlett. Read the attached commentary on one of the shows where the president ignorantly blasts the bibles statements on slavery, homosexuality, stoning etc....

hilarious.

read it and see how all of your anit bible arguments can be destroyed quite simply with even a mild understanding of the bible.

enjoy

http://www.equip.org/free/DP801.pdf

of course, you didn't answer the question I posed to you, and your link doens't work either :)

thackl

10-26-2003, 04:28 PM

A lot has transpired since a last checked this thread. Interesting discussion (most of it)

12R34Y

10-26-2003, 05:18 PM

you need adobe acrobat to open it.

i'll try and post it in a word document or something tonight or tomorrow.

by the way.......you can't explain, reason with or help anyone understand about the bible and christianity if they are NOT christians.........it is hard to change people's mind about things on a online forum.

No one is going to say......."oh you are right.......i see the light now!"

Just speaking from someone who used to be unsaved and is now saved.......until you do see the light and understand if first hand you won't understand. Your hearts will be hardened and you cannot possibly see the truth.

Likewise, you aren't going to get me to budge even a little bit on my stances sooooooooo...

I'll quit. nothing going to get accomplished.

OH, by the way.......sure I've had impure thoughts (homosexual) especially when i was a teenager..........

didn't choose to listen to them. I'm sure sexually both lifestyles will fulfill you, but it isn't just about sex. it's about being right and not sinning.

I CHOSE not to act on those feelings......like most hetersexuals. If you give into the sin then that is your problem. just my thoughts.

later

BlackPuma

10-26-2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by 12R34Y
you need adobe acrobat to open it.

i'll try and post it in a word document or something tonight or tomorrow.

by the way.......you can't explain, reason with or help anyone understand about the bible and christianity if they are NOT christians.........it is hard to change people's mind about things on a online forum.

No one is going to say......."oh you are right.......i see the light now!"

Just speaking from someone who used to be unsaved and is now saved.......until you do see the light and understand if first hand you won't understand. Your hearts will be hardened and you cannot possibly see the truth.

Likewise, you aren't going to get me to budge even a little bit on my stances sooooooooo...

I'll quit. nothing going to get accomplished.

OH, by the way.......sure I've had impure thoughts (homosexual) especially when i was a teenager..........

didn't choose to listen to them. I'm sure sexually both lifestyles will fulfill you, but it isn't just about sex. it's about being right and not sinning.

I CHOSE not to act on those feelings......like most hetersexuals. If you give into the sin then that is your problem. just my thoughts.

later

1. I have adobe acrobat, reader, photoshop, illustrator, pagemaker, streamline, etc. I know how to open an adobe pdf file. Your link didn't work for me

"by the way.......you can't explain, reason with or help anyone understand about the bible and christianity if they are NOT christians.........it is hard to change people's mind about things on a online forum."

2. Typical religious mantra, You have to have "leap of faith". In this world, I suscribe to the philosophy of Descartes, "I think therefore I am". If we can't prove religious arguements, or you can't even defend them, by saying, "oh you have to believe in it and be a christian, otherwise does not flow with me". I'm sorry buddy, if the idea of heaven and hell, and morality are so black and white for you that you don't need convincing, that's fine for you. But there are other people like DAvid Kouresh, like the KKK, and osama that operate with the same line of reasoning, aka, believe me in me and don't ask questions. The catholic church became so powerful during must of europe's history, that 80% of all her believers, were 1) illiterate 2) even if literate could not read hebrew or latin 3) took the word of the church as "divine and true". It wasn't until Luther who came and translated the bible into german, were the birth of protestanism had evolved. Same goes with today's christians, jews, muslims and atheists, if you can't defend your point to me, then you are all a figment of my imagination. How do you think your religious dogma is different from pat robertson and osama bin laden, just because YOU think it is true and "morally right". Abraham goes up on the hill and gets ready to sacrifice Isaac for god? no questions asked? now if abraham today did that, people would rush first to see if he is suffering from a schizophrenic disorder. Moral of the story, if god tells you to sacrifice your son, don't hesistate to do so, becauase again the "leap of faith clause".

OH, by the way.......sure I've had impure thoughts (homosexual) especially when i was a teenager..........

3. This is what I figured since getting your response by saying it is a choice. Let me tell you this, NONE OF my straight friends, including my own brother, and parents have ever ever had homosexual thoughts, even if they have had it, they were NEVER aroused by thought of homosexuality. Some of my friends drool when a women walks by, and you mention the word or thought of penis to them, they get sick like this :(

And they belong to range of spectrums both religious and non-religious. As you can see, they ARE MUTUALLY exclusive heterosexual. The fact that you had or have homosexual thoughts, IS AN ANDICATION that you sir are a bisexual. Now, if you have managed to suppress your homosexuality, then I say congratulations to you! Being a heterosexual or attempting to live a heterosexual life, is a BETTER LIFE!

Now, the question is, what do people who are MUTUALLY homosexual, to do? I have rarely if ever had heterosexual thoughts, nor am I attracted to female glands or genitalia, a boob is simply a mass of inflated mammillary glands to me. I can squeeze it, touch it and suck it, and nada! So I can't CHOSSSSSSSSEEEE I repeat CHOOOOOOOSE to get an erection from a WOMAN!? got it?

and no being gay, is not "all about sex"....I FALL in love with guys, in high school..I didn't know why...I would look at one of my friends, and for teh entire geomtry class, I would doodle his name "john" all over my notebook, and I was like

:rolleyes:

and I was like...I have SERIOus serious issues...

I CHOSE not to act on those feelings......like most hetersexuals. If you give into the sin then that is your problem. just my thoughts.

NO, BUDDY, you are not a heterosexual, you are a BISEXUAL, and bisexuality comes in a spectrum!!! it's not 50/50, some are 10/90, some 40/60 with your sexuality leaning either way. Let me tell you something, I freqent gay chat sites, sometimes out of boredom and to talk to different peopel...yes there are ample of perverts wnating to do one night stands, and hookups, but there is also the "marriage crowd" where they have been reformed and converted to hetersoxuality...I would say anywhere from % to 30% of all married couples are married to a gay man, who out of social pressure married a women, and then AFTER AFTER 15 years of marriage or even 30 years of marriage, they are like "I can't live this lie anymore" and I'm like, what a hypocrite?!?!?

I THINK THAT IS IMMORAL to mislead any WOMAN, into thinking you love them, care for them, and eVEN have SEX with them and raise kids, and then half way into the marriage say, oh by the way honey, I'm GAY!!!

that's so wrong, if you chose to do that, then that is your pregorative, let me tell you this, I know very VERY VERY few people that became complete heterosexuals even from BISEXUALITY!!!

a lot of them revert bakc to their original behavior, 5 years, 10 years, or even 40 years down the line....my brother is one of the most straight people I know, HE WOULD NEVER ever have any kind of homosexual thoughts, nor is he ever AROUSED by the idea either...as such, you are seriously mistaken if you think that "most heterosexuals" have homosexual thoughts, because in the same token, most homosexuals don't have "heterosexual thoughts"

Just speaking from someone who used to be unsaved and is now saved.......until you do see the light and understand if first hand you won't understand. Your hearts will be hardened and you cannot possibly see the truth.

ok, when I see the "light" I will make sure to have your number, and let me tell you something, up until the age of 19 I was VERY religious, I prayed to god every single day of my life, asked him to make me straight, every time I had gay thoughts, I went into the bathroom and vommitted profusely, so I would never have gay thoughts, my parents beat the **** out of me, and told me I was better off dead than being gay....

those years traumatized me badly...my intention of this thread, to educate some parents in the MEDICALLY field, that if your child is gay to:

1) not beat the **** out of them
2) try endlessly to try and "convert them"
3) not push their child into suicide
4) learn to accept to love them for WHO THEY ARE and not what they are...

I'm not here pushing a "homosexual agenda" and asking all the men in the world to embrace homosexuality...I'm telling you this as a GAY man, life is harder, obstacles are more challenging, discrimination is rampid and your life is filled with depression and even suicide...as such, you or ANYONE else has to be a complete BUFFOON or idiot to want to "chose" to be gay...:rolleyes:

I CHOSE not to act on those feelings......like most hetersexuals. If you give into the sin then that is your problem. just my thoughts.

dude, you totally have some latent homosexulaity within you, as I told you I have straight freinds that dont even remotely have homosexual thoughts....with your phrasing of your words, about "giving into sin" your making it sound as if homosexuality is some kind of forbidden fruit, where you on a regular basis are strugglling with it, but "don't wish to give it in"....

dude, if you want or think you can be straight all the power to you..I'm not trying to make you go gay, but I hardly think you are anything but "straight" if anything you are a bisexual struggling with your emotions...

as such, I wish you the best in your "chosen" straight life, I have no beef with you, but take this analogy..

some people suffer from cancer:

1) some make it through chemo and survive

2) others dont and die

just because you can "become straight" doesnt mean the rest of the gay or bisexual community can, and yes this conversation was very fruitful...I was able to diagnose you as a latent homosexual/bisexual...

let me know how your marriage turns out in 40 years....;)

southerndoc

10-26-2003, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
DEUTERONOMY 21:18-21 NKJ
18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them,
19 "then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city.
20 "And they shall say to the elders of his city, `This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
21 "Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil person from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

Ah yes, that lovely book called "The Bible"... Written by men, mainly so the Lords could offer hope to their peasants.

It's ironic that the book which we encourage people to read for enlightenment, self-awareness, peace, and prosperity is also the same book which advocates stoning kids to death because they do not obey their parents.

I'm glad I never wasted time reading the Bible. It's useless. I have found much better things to do with my time. For example, post on SDN.

I could probably write my own Bible. People of this day and age would think of it as the work of a fanatic, but just think, a 1,000 years from now people might consider it The Newest Testament, the Final Testament, Testament Finale, or maybe even The Bible, 3rd ed.

BIBLE: Book in Babble for the Lower Eschelon

immediatespring

10-27-2003, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by Geek Medic
Ah yes, that lovely book called "The Bible"... Written by men, mainly so the Lords could offer hope to their peasants.

It's ironic that the book which we encourage people to read for enlightenment, self-awareness, peace, and prosperity is also the same book which advocates stoning kids to death because they do not obey their parents.

I'm glad I never wasted time reading the Bible. It's useless. I have found much better things to do with my time. For example, post on SDN.

I could probably write my own Bible. People of this day and age would think of it as the work of a fanatic, but just think, a 1,000 years from now people might consider it The Newest Testament, the Final Testament, Testament Finale, or maybe even The Bible, 3rd ed.

BIBLE: Book in Babble for the Lower Eschelon

:laugh: for someone that doesn't believe in the bible, you sure are getting riled up for no reason :laugh:
i really don't understand the point of bashing the bible, you don't believe in it, great! no one is forcing you but are you mad at the people that choose to believe it or did the bible do something wrong to you?

southerndoc

10-27-2003, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by immediatespring
:laugh: for someone that doesn't believe in the bible, you sure are getting riled up for no reason :laugh:
i really don't understand the point of bashing the bible, you don't believe in it, great! no one is forcing you but are you mad at the people that choose to believe it or did the bible do something wrong to you?

Nah, just a personal rant because as a child who grew up in the deep South, all I ever heard about was religion this, religion that.

A little rebellion in me. ;)

StealthFille

10-28-2003, 11:12 PM

I used to get so riled up over the religion thing. I used to--okay, sometimes still do--take it personal that someone else thinks I'm gonna suffer for eternity because they have it all figured out and I don't. I'd even feel hurt or defensive. Lately, I'm starting to get that it's all actually pretty humorous. Would you WANT to go to heaven and hang out with these christian fundy types, anyway? No drinking, screwing, or making fun of people with mullets; if the really hyper ones get their way, no secular music, dancing, blackjack, or cute Jewish guys. And definitely no 'Will & Grace'. That heaven can most certainly wait as far as I'm concerned!!! Even funnier, picture everyone who is SO certain that 'Biblical Truth' is the answer obeying their husbands like little puppy dogs, eschewing gay friends, spanking their kids, and then they die and BOOM! Reincarnated as a jelly fish! Dang it, all those millions of Hindus in India were right all along, and you wasted your human life on a no-fun religion. Hey, I'm not Hindu, but they are every bit as likely to be right as Christians or Atheists or anybody else. Picking a religion and getting to heaven is like picking lottery numbers and winning. :rolleyes:

Teufelhunden

10-29-2003, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by StealthFille
I used to get so riled up over the religion thing. I used to--okay, sometimes still do--take it personal that someone else thinks I'm gonna suffer for eternity because they have it all figured out and I don't. I'd even feel hurt or defensive. Lately, I'm starting to get that it's all actually pretty humorous. Would you WANT to go to heaven and hang out with these christian fundy types, anyway? No drinking, screwing, or making fun of people with mullets; if the really hyper ones get their way, no secular music, dancing, blackjack, or cute Jewish guys. And definitely no 'Will & Grace'. That heaven can most certainly wait as far as I'm concerned!!! Even funnier, picture everyone who is SO certain that 'Biblical Truth' is the answer obeying their husbands like little puppy dogs, eschewing gay friends, spanking their kids, and then they die and BOOM! Reincarnated as a jelly fish! Dang it, all those millions of Hindus in India were right all along, and you wasted your human life on a no-fun religion. Hey, I'm not Hindu, but they are every bit as likely to be right as Christians or Atheists or anybody else. Picking a religion and getting to heaven is like picking lottery numbers and winning. :rolleyes:

Wow! Well said!

Just as an aside...a patient gave me one of those freaky tracts today...you know with the story of some young person dying in an auto accident and going to hell because they never accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior...blah, blah, blah.

I love those tracts...so cheerful...join our religion of fanatic kooks, or suffer eternal damnation of burning flesh in the firey pits of hell!

What a fun gang those crazy Christains are!

StealthFille

10-29-2003, 06:11 PM

:laugh: Yeah, my baby got one of those fanatics, too... On his neurology rotation--go figure!:laugh:

Elysium

11-02-2003, 11:47 PM

Watcha,

I understand that this issue is very emotionally charged for you. You've gone through a lot of **** trying to accept your homosexuality and its been a tough road (and I suspect it still is given who your roommate is!). But, I think one reassuring thing from reading the majority of posts on this thread is that most folks seem to be pretty cool with the idea of homosexuality and the possibility of their children being gay. I know that there is still a long way to go with acceptance of gay rights, but thankfully some headway has been made. In the main, I think that a great deal of people are hip to the idea that what people do in their bedrooms is their business.

As far as promiscuity is concerned, I know a whole lot more safe sex adhering gay men than straight folks (a lot of whom still think that getting a girl knocked up is the biggest STD), but I know that statistically there are still more new HIV cases every year.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that people on SDN are (mainly) supportive and openminded.

dapimp

11-06-2003, 11:41 AM

disown them. buts thats just me. my wife has this i dont care cuz its their life attitude and i f ing hate it.

BlackPuma

11-06-2003, 12:06 PM

u can't disown ur own child...u wont when ur child is one...believe me..u will change...my parents had the same attitude :)

relatively prime

11-06-2003, 12:19 PM

I wouldn't give a rat's *****... guy, girl or monkey, either way they're not dating (with my permission) until they're 16.

Actually though... it might be cool to have a gay kid. Then I'd have an excuse to put one of those cool rainbow stickers on my car.

Oh, and I plan to open my house on holidays to all gay people who have been disowned by their lunatic parents. Watcha, don't underestimate how cruel and cold any parent can be. I wouldn't be surprised if that dude did disown his own kid.

Teufelhunden

11-06-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by dapimp
disown them. buts thats just me. my wife has this i dont care cuz its their life attitude and i f ing hate it.

At least you're not a biggoted homophobe?!

StealthFille

11-06-2003, 06:29 PM

:laugh:
Careful, "dapimp's" wife is gonna come after you!
:laugh:

BlackPuma

11-06-2003, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by relatively prime
I wouldn't give a rat's *****... guy, girl or monkey, either way they're not dating (with my permission) until they're 16.

Actually though... it might be cool to have a gay kid. Then I'd have an excuse to put one of those cool rainbow stickers on my car.

Oh, and I plan to open my house on holidays to all gay people who have been disowned by their lunatic parents. Watcha, don't underestimate how cruel and cold any parent can be. I wouldn't be surprised if that dude did disown his own kid.

you know the thing, is, that gets to me...is that I would totally want to be straight if I had a choice...and the thing is...If I were blind or deaf...u would get people's sympathy...when your gay...u just get people's scorn :(

and people don't realize how hurtful it is...I mean you can deal with it, once, twice, but when it is the general attitude and ur going up against the tide...it's like you have to prove your existance to them one by one...and it becomes rather painful really...

oh well....

BlackPuma

11-06-2003, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by Elysium
Watcha,

I understand that this issue is very emotionally charged for you. You've gone through a lot of **** trying to accept your homosexuality and its been a tough road (and I suspect it still is given who your roommate is!). But, I think one reassuring thing from reading the majority of posts on this thread is that most folks seem to be pretty cool with the idea of homosexuality and the possibility of their children being gay. I know that there is still a long way to go with acceptance of gay rights, but thankfully some headway has been made. In the main, I think that a great deal of people are hip to the idea that what people do in their bedrooms is their business.

As far as promiscuity is concerned, I know a whole lot more safe sex adhering gay men than straight folks (a lot of whom still think that getting a girl knocked up is the biggest STD), but I know that statistically there are still more new HIV cases every year.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that people on SDN are (mainly) supportive and openminded.

thanks for your nice post...it means a lot...you're going to be a great parent....

StealthFille

11-06-2003, 11:21 PM

Hey Sweetie,
I'm one of those freaky-ass straight-but-not-narrow advocates. I not only accept gay guys and lesbians; I can't imagine the world without you! DON'T wish you were straight! I can't tell you how many times I wished I were a little more socialy acceptable... but if I were, I wouldn't be me. Look at all these middle-class, minivan-driving, sexually repressed, middle-management psychos that populate our country, living what Thoreau (my idol) would call "lives of quiet desperation". I know you deserve better than that, and underneath it all, I know you do too. They are the freaks; not us!! Pandering to the mainstream is the only true surrender. Live your life, love your life. Nothing else (not religion, not a chevy suburban, not corian counter-tops or soccer practice, or a cute but not threateningly attactive spouse, or digital cable) matters, I promise.:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

relatively prime

11-07-2003, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
you know the thing, is, that gets to me...is that I would totally want to be straight if I had a choice...

Don't say that. I like gay people. How boring would the world be if everyone was straight? Homosexuality is nothing like blindness or any other disability. Homosexuality, contrary to popular belief, is NORMAL. It's not as common (like how blue eyes aren't as common) but it's not a disease or a disability. Various species of apes show homosexual behavior all the time. In fact, so do some species of birds. A lot of people don't know this, but homosexuality is present in nature. It's no big deal. Only humans are dumb enough to think it's a big deal. And in fact, a lot of ancient cultures didn't think it was a big deal. Exactly what do you think went on in those ancient Greek bath houses? ;)

And if you still don't believe me... spend some time with my guinea pigs. They don't care who they're humping. They're all apparently bisexual.

Like Stealth said, we can't all fit the mold... nor should we.

BlackPuma

11-07-2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by relatively prime
Don't say that. I like gay people. How boring would the world be if everyone was straight? Homosexuality is nothing like blindness or any other disability. Homosexuality, contrary to popular belief, is NORMAL. It's not as common (like how blue eyes aren't as common) but it's not a disease or a disability. Various species of apes show homosexual behavior all the time. In fact, so do some species of birds. A lot of people don't know this, but homosexuality is present in nature. It's no big deal. Only humans are dumb enough to think it's a big deal. And in fact, a lot of ancient cultures didn't think it was a big deal. Exactly what do you think went on in those ancient Greek bath houses? ;)

And if you still don't believe me... spend some time with my guinea pigs. They don't care who they're humping. They're all apparently bisexual.

Like Stealth said, we can't all fit the mold... nor should we.

yah, I know but sometimes...it feels good to feel "normal"....

have a wife, a dog, a cat, a swimming pool in the back...and two kids one boy and one girl...

if I were straight....right now..my biggest worries would be to change diapers, and getting children books...

instead..I get barraged with people saying...ur deviant..or ur sick...or ur perverted, or ur going to hell...blah blah blah...and its a choice, but ur not trying hard enough...it gets really old after a while and you get so drained...

the other day, I was speaking toa friend who didn't know I was gay, and I said, why would a person "choose" a difficult and harder path by leading a life that dcauses you to become an outcast by your family, friends, and society...and he was like...hey, there are also drug addicts...and they "chose" that lifestyle to... :(

I didn't know how to answer that....now I'm compared to a drug addict, sigh...and the other day..I was talking to a friend, and I said, how would you feel if you found out one of your friends is a lesbian or gay...and he was like...watcha...I don't like to talk about controversial topics :(

so now...I'm a drug addict and a controversial topic...it get's really old after a while...in the 21st century can't believe that pple still consider it to be a choice :(

Runtita

11-07-2003, 06:34 PM

Genetics or choice? DOES IT REALLY MATTER?

You are who you are; I am who I am; my children are who they are.

As long as no one is hurting anyone else, what's the big deal?

Geez, it's none of my business who anyone else has sex with.

As for my kids, as long as they're happy, I will welcome
their partners into the family.

There's not enough love in this world and there never can be.

relatively prime

11-08-2003, 06:31 PM

With all due sympathy Watcha... being gay doesn't have to be that hard. I have more than a few gay friends who've managed find places where they are loved and accepted. For instance, one lives in New York... another in San Fransiscos... some went to New Hanven.

Now, if you're bent on living in Podunkville in Alabama and associating with your old-school friends from bible class... of course you're going to have problems.

You just need to surround yourself with a different crowd of people.

One other thing... did you say you're married?!?!? Presumably to a woman!?! HOW WRONG IS THAT??! If you actually got married (knowing you were gay) and decieved some poor woman into thinking you were straight, and then brought children into that bed of lies... I'm sorry but you're a bad bad bad person.

GoodMonkey

11-08-2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by relatively prime
One other thing... did you say you're married?!?!? Presumably to a woman!?! HOW WRONG IS THAT??! If you actually got married (knowing you were gay) and decieved some poor woman into thinking you were straight, and then brought children into that bed of lies... I'm sorry but you're a bad bad bad person.

settle down, settle down. :) i think he was saying he wanted to be "normal," with a wife, kids, dog, etc... meaning he wanted those things and considered that to be normal... not that he actually possessed them. :)

immediatespring

11-09-2003, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by relatively prime

... I'm sorry but you're a bad bad bad person.

:laugh: :laugh:

BlackPuma

11-09-2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by relatively prime
With all due sympathy Watcha... being gay doesn't have to be that hard. I have more than a few gay friends who've managed find places where they are loved and accepted. For instance, one lives in New York... another in San Fransiscos... some went to New Hanven.

Now, if you're bent on living in Podunkville in Alabama and associating with your old-school friends from bible class... of course you're going to have problems.

You just need to surround yourself with a different crowd of people.

One other thing... did you say you're married?!?!? Presumably to a woman!?! HOW WRONG IS THAT??! If you actually got married (knowing you were gay) and decieved some poor woman into thinking you were straight, and then brought children into that bed of lies... I'm sorry but you're a bad bad bad person.

ummm...

1) I'm NOT married....I would never ever marry a woman...well actually I want to...but I'm gay...
2) Yes, I'm fully aware that SF and NYC are the havens for people like me...not to mention culturally, intellectually far superior than any other cities...but hello, thats like 10 cities AT MOST in the whole country...every where else you go its by far more conservative
3) by the way, how many gay medical students do you know...the number is by far less...why is that..it's a conservative field...

besides, everybody whines on this website...why can't I :D

relatively prime

11-10-2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit

besides, everybody whines on this website...why can't I :D

Point taken ;)

pathdr2b

11-15-2003, 10:04 AM

If my child were gay, I certainily wouldn't shun her. Having spent some time as an AIDS counselor, I'm used to being around all types of people.

Elysium

11-15-2003, 05:41 PM

Watcha,

I hate like hell that you're obviously hurting as much as you are about being gay. I know how easy it is to want to fit the societal mode of getting married and having kids and all that and that is more difficult for gay men to achieve these goals than it is lesbians (because of A.I. and the like). But there are like minded men out there who want to have a partnership and a family. They want all the same things you do. My best friend is a 32 year old gay man who has been in a committed relationship for 5 years (way longer than any of my great straight relationships!) and they're talking about adopting a baby or inseminating a female friend of their's (and my name has been thrown around!). Do you currently have a partner or any other gay friends? It seems like you feel rather isolated and are still ashamed of your sexuality. Please don't be (easier said than done, I know). I wish that you could surround yourself with more like minded people and stop associating with bigoted *******s that only re-affirm your self loathing. You can have the life you dream of, with a wonderful man that will turn you on body and soul. Never settle and don't be afraid to be yourself. Your journey will make you a more empathetic person and ulimately a more empatheic physician.

Have faith!

BlackPuma

11-18-2003, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by Elysium
Watcha,

I hate like hell that you're obviously hurting as much as you are about being gay. I know how easy it is to want to fit the societal mode of getting married and having kids and all that and that is more difficult for gay men to achieve these goals than it is lesbians (because of A.I. and the like). But there are like minded men out there who want to have a partnership and a family. They want all the same things you do. My best friend is a 32 year old gay man who has been in a committed relationship for 5 years (way longer than any of my great straight relationships!) and they're talking about adopting a baby or inseminating a female friend of their's (and my name has been thrown around!). Do you currently have a partner or any other gay friends? It seems like you feel rather isolated and are still ashamed of your sexuality. Please don't be (easier said than done, I know). I wish that you could surround yourself with more like minded people and stop associating with bigoted *******s that only re-affirm your self loathing. You can have the life you dream of, with a wonderful man that will turn you on body and soul. Never settle and don't be afraid to be yourself. Your journey will make you a more empathetic person and ulimately a more empatheic physician.

Have faith!

Thanks Elysium..

Yah I alot of gay friends now....although I don't relate much to them....I'm prolly the only guy in my 20s that wants to settle down and have a family haha :p

The only reason I brought it up..was to just to see how some of the bigots and rednecks on this site would react if they have gay kids, and make sure they their kids don't go through what I had to go through....but it seems as if it does little to change people's opinions...

one day...when they will realize that their kid is gay...I'm sure they will learn how to deal or not deal with it...

peace.....