Pros and Cons of your DO School

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NYCOM Review

Ok this will be brief because honestly who wants to fill all this out.




Curriculum: B
*Anatomy: A
*Basic Sciences: B
*Micro: C
*OPP/OMM: If you have your OMM lifetime membership card you should be ok.
*Pharm: A Goldstein rocks
*Physio: A-
*Path: A Plummer is good
Location: Long Island…… C
Cost: 46K
Reputation: B Good rep in the state of New york
Technology: D Wifi Internet is unreliable, the computer stations never work.
Housing: C
Study Areas: D 600 people in their basic sciences + PT's, Nurses, PA's. You get a small study room, plus a tiny library, and maybe a lecture hall that people talk in.
OVERALL GRADE: C


Just some of the things that happened in my first years, a classmate was late for an anatomy test, TA told him that he could just take it as others finished. Turns out he couldn't and ended up having to remediate the entire block. This kid had honored most of his other blocks, and was already a doctor in another country.

Another classmates dad was sick, when he asked for time off they said he could disenroll and then reapply, if he was accepted for the next years class, he could return.

Admin mailed out the entire classes student ID's passwords, class status, and if they were in a med prep program before. Best part is there was no apology or assurances that the problem was fixed and wouldn't happen again.

List of complaints, lecture halls plus library are freezing, internet connection is dodgy, large attrition I just saw it was rate 10% in first year.

You get zero real clinical experience in the first 2 year. Though there are simulated patients encounters.

So basically what I'm saying the classroom stuff is fine, if you make it through the match rates and locations are pretty good. Plus people seem to be satisfied with their knowledge base. It's just getting to that point that is the trick.

Any more questions feel free to PM me.

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Just some of the things that happened in my first years, a classmate was late for an anatomy test, TA told him that he could just take it as others finished. Turns out he couldn’t and ended up having to remediate the entire year. This kid had honored most of his other blocks, and was already a doctor in another country.

Why would he remediate the entire year? If you fail a system during a given year, you just retake that system over the summer, not repeat the entire year. Unless he failed another system for whatever reason, in which case he'd most likely be kicked out.

List of complaints, lecture halls plus library are freezing, internet connection is dodgy, large attrition I just saw it was rate 10% in first year.

In my first year (this past school year), only 14 out of 313 students dropped out (and not just for academic reasons). That's about a 4.5% attrition rate.
 
Sorry you're right it was just one block, I corrected it.
And 4.5% is still much higher than the average, I curious how did you get the number I had to really work to get it. (even though it should be free access, but that's another subject.) But I hope its true, it might show some improvement from last year.

Oh which also brings me to that fact that you have to buy a NYCOM insurance plan, ($4 K) you cannot buy your own, the only exception is if you are on your parents plan. Friend looked it up, yes definitely not legal.
 
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You can also apply for medicaid and get free health insurance and waive NYCOM's. Which they told us to do on our interview in-case we were accepted so that we would have medicaid in time.



Sorry you're right it was just one block, I corrected it.
And 4.5% is still much higher than the average, I curious how did you get the number I had to really work to get it. (even though it should be free access, but that's another subject.) But I hope its true, it might show some improvement from last year.

Oh which also brings me to that fact that you have to buy a NYCOM insurance plan, ($4 K) you cannot buy your own, the only exception is if you are on your parents plan. Friend looked it up, yes definitely not legal.
 
Curriculum: UMDNJ-SOM finally switched over to a systems-based curriculum in the 2009-2010 school year. While I'm glad they finally got with the times, it's also obvious that the new curriculum perhaps wasn't quite ready for prime time. For starters, the layout of the first year curriculum was a bit strange; some systems (e.g., cardiology) were given generously sized blocks that lasted nearly two months while topics like renal and neuro were crammed into comparatively short blocks (renal lasted all of a week and a half) that didn't allow adequate time for instruction or study. The clinical neurology block (normally a 2nd year block) was moved up into the tail end of the first year curriculum, further crimping the already short neuroscience blocks and causing all sorts of weirdness with grading. Another frustration was the fact that our first half-dozen block exams were dramatically harder than for first sets of exams the second years had taken (mostly because they took individual exams by subject on different days). Predictably, this made the class of 2013's averages on those early exams far worse than the class of 2012's, and the administration didn't seem to know what to make of this. (At least a couple of professors were overheard stating that the class of 2013 was "lazy" and "didn't study enough".) In fact, the average in some classes was bad enough by the end of the first semester that they decided to make most of the first year classes year-long to keep from having to fail/remediate anyone by winter break. Granted, the deans were ultimately responsive to the issues associated with the new curriculum and implemented many tweaks that seemed to improve things, but I still wish I didn't have to be one of the "guinea pigs" for this new curriculum. Hopefully it'll be better for the classes that come along after ours.

Some other curriculum points:

- OMS-1s must complete 30 hours of precepting with a family practice physician within the school's network.

- The second year Physical Diagnosis class utilizes the patient simulation suite to test various aspects of physical examinations, etc. (We were supposed to have an introductory session in the suite with patient actors regarding smoking cessation, but the disorganization that resulted from the new curriculum seemed to have prevented that from happening this year.)

- There is a PBL track, but it currently has room for only about half a dozen people.

- Students in the regular lecture track participate in several PBL-like case sessions during first-year physiology. During the second year, lecture students have weekly PBL-style sessions administered by a member of the clinical faculty.

Technology: We have a good-sized patient simulation suite with rooms simulating various clinic and hospital situations. Most lectures are recorded and posted so that they can be viewed at home; additionally, audio files are sometimes made available so the lectures can be loaded onto ipods, etc. Our OMM lab has a camera mounted above a demo table that is connected to several TVs mounted throughout.

Testing: We have "block exams" every 4-6 weeks, depending on which system was covered during the block. The written portion of these exams takes place in the afternoon on the test day and lasts for 3-4 hours. In the morning of this exam day, we usually have practicals in anatomy and/or histology. The anatomy practicals are split into cadaveric and digital imaging portions (we do full cadaver dissections with 3-4 students per cadaver), and the histo practicals are fully computerized and are taken on your personal laptop. OMM practicals occur once or twice a semester, and the OMM department does a decent job of laying out their expectations for the practicals beforehand. The testing style varies somewhat between classes; for instance, our biochemistry class had computerized quizzes that were given during the semester at various times, and a couple of other classes had online "case studies" that the students were supposed to read and then answer several questions about. If less than 70% of the class gets a given written block exam question right, it automatically gets thrown out. Students can challenge a question they feel is faulty by submitting a formal challenge to the course director within a certain number of days after the exam; however, since you can't write down any of the questions during the exam period, relatively few challenges ever get filed. Otherwise, a great amount of latitude is given to the course directors in terms of curving the exams and/or overall class grades; this has been both a blessing and a curse at times.

Location: Stratford, NJ. It's a suburban area ~11 mi from Philly, ~ 60 mi from Atlantic City, and ~90 mi from New York City. Because there's not all that much to do in the immediate area around the school, many students take road trips to the above cities for fun. What's nice, however, is that most everything else you could possibly need is no farther than 5-10 min from the school or surrounding locales. There are plenty of movie theaters, fast food joints, nicer restaurants, Walmarts, grocery stores, churches, etc right within the surrounding area. Stratford itself is a tiny borough of only about 1000 people, so many students live in nearby boroughs of Lindenwold, Clementon, Blackwood, Marlton, Cherry Hill, etc. Some of these boroughs unfortunately border the city of Camden, which at the last census was the poorest municipality in America. Consequently, portions of some of these boroughs (esp. Lindenwold) are noted for their crime and unpleasentness.

Cost: For the 2009-2010 school year, the cost for OOS students was $40k; in-state was $20k. Budget issues have required the UMDNJ system to raise tuition somewhat for the 2010-2011 year, but AFAIK they haven't fully finalized these increases yet. OOS students can become in-state residents after the first year.

Faculty: We have a few big names (White, Nagele, and others). Otherwise, I'd say the faculty ranks as just ok. Some of the profs make a real sincere effort towards teaching, but far too many don't. There are a surprising number of clinical lecturers who seem to throw together a half-baked set of slides and basically "wing it" up in front of us, which is frankly embarrassing and a waste of time for all involved. The quality of the OMM instruction seems especially poor at times, and there's honestly only one member of that department who can explain the techniques concisely and clearly. The physiology lecturers are generally quite good, however, and everyone seems to enjoy White's neuro lectures. I wish I could say something more positive here, but I was really only "wowed" by the neuro, physio, and perhaps micro lecturing. Disappointingly, there was a language barrier with some of the other professors that extended even to their test questions. (Some subjects had a lot of test q's thrown out on the block exams because of grammatical errors that literally made the questions impossible to get right.) That said, the faculty at most medical schools seems to be of mixed quality, and overall I don't think we're any worse here than any other med school. It's a plus in some ways because it forces you to keep on your toes as a student and ensure that you learn the material cold yourself.

Study areas: Currently, this is the one thing that lots of students complain about. The library is tiny and has only four dedicated study rooms. The second floor also has several other rooms that can be used for studying, but a couple of these are for PBL use only. (The neighboring University Doctors Pavilion also has a few rooms that can be used for studying at times, but they aren't very large.) The school has tried to address these complaints by moving a bunch of desks into the halls of the 3rd floor, converting a computer lab into a dedicated study space and opening the histo labs up for general study use. (Our histo instruction is now fully computerized, so the histo labs weren't being used much anyway.) Still, study space is inadequate overall.

Clinical rotations: Currently, these seem to be high-quality and generally well-regarded by most 3rd and 4th years.. There is a "North Track" in which ~20 SOM students can do their rotations at Christ Hospital in Jersey City. The rest of the students do their rotations at various hospitals in the Kennedy, Our Lady of Lourdes, and UMDNJ clinic systems throughout South Jersey. The rotations seem to allow for a great deal of responsibility (one 3rd year I talked to said he had delivered several babies with a resident during one snowy night in which an attending didn't show on an OB rotation). However, some third years have stated that there may well be a "shake up" in the rotations because of budget issues between UMDNJ-SOM and its clinical partners, so stay tuned. I certainly hope nothing changes here in the near future.

Housing: No housing is available on campus. Surrounding housing prices range from reasonable to quite expensive depending on how good of a shopper you are. You can expect to pay between $500-1k+ depending on what size of apartment you want. Because of the expense of larger apartments, many students choose to have roommates. For whatever reason, many students choose to live in the (IMHO very overpriced) Echelon Glen or Village apartments. Here's a little secret: do yourself a favor and look around at the multitude of cheaper, better apartments (Cherrywood, Timber Ridge, King's Row, Autumn Ridge, and many others) that are just a few more miles away from the school. You'll probably save yourself $200-300+ a month and get a bigger apartment with better amenities to boot.

Social scene: This is probably my only serious beef with the campus. Quite a few SOM students have noted that the class of 2013 is "cliquish", and the cliques are a bit more exclusive than I'd hoped. This seems to be because many students in the class of 2013 have lived their entire lives in NJ and have attended state schools like TCNJ and Rutgers. Consequently, many of the younger students seem to have known each other already from their college days, and this makes it much harder for OOS students to meet people and make friends. My wife and I are pretty frustrated at the fact that we've lived here a year already had haven't made any real solid friends yet. It wasn't this hard in college! Furthermore, the chief pastime of many of my classmates seems to be hard partying and drinking, and I'm not really into that. It's honestly been hard to find people that share my interests - and it's not as if my interests are bizarre or anything.

To sum up:

Curriculum: B- It was frustrating for us, but I have faith that it'll get better for upcoming classes.
Location: A- The immediate area is sort of bland, but more interesting places (esp. Philly) are not far away. Plus, everything you need as a student is right here.
Cost: A Even OOS tuition isn't that expensive here, and the fact that OOS students can get in-state tuition after a year makes SOM a real bargain.
Faculty: B/B- Nothing much more to say here...just make sure you prep for the boards hard yourself because there doesn't seem to be much "hand-holding" in that department.
Housing: B+
Study space: C+ This needs work, and I'm not sure when they're going to get around to fully fixing it.
Clinical rotations: A- These are in great shape currently, and I hope they stay that way.
Social scene: C- I'm hoping this changes as I get to meet more of the incoming members of the class of 2014. They seem to be a lot different from the 2013ers.
Overall: B+/B

Feel free to ask/PM me if you want to know anything else; I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade.
 
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You can also apply for medicaid and get free health insurance and waive NYCOM's. Which they told us to do on our interview in-case we were accepted so that we would have medicaid in time.

I wish they would have told me that on my interview... I guess I'll be paying for nycom's lol
 
I wish they would have told me that on my interview... I guess I'll be paying for nycom's lol

Yeah, I just figured it recently too. Gonna try to apply for medicaid and withdraw from nycom's as soon as it kicks in.
 
The cost is getting hilarious... but now they have your souls muahahahaha! I see 50K easily in the next two years.

Edit:

PNWU is already more costly than RVU which is a FOR Pofit school

Currently Western costs more than PNWU.
 
Yeah, I just figured it recently too. Gonna try to apply for medicaid and withdraw from nycom's as soon as it kicks in.

Medicaid takes 3 months to kick in, if you are eligible which you will be as long as you are a student with no income. You'll have it in time by next semester so youll only have to pay for this semester.
 
Medicaid takes 3 months to kick in, if you are eligible which you will be as long as you are a student with no income. You'll have it in time by next semester so youll only have to pay for this semester.


Exactly, so I figure I'll save SOME cash, because their insurance is just too expensive.
 
Sorry you're right it was just one block, I corrected it.
And 4.5% is still much higher than the average, I curious how did you get the number I had to really work to get it. (even though it should be free access, but that's another subject.) But I hope its true, it might show some improvement from last year.

Oh which also brings me to that fact that you have to buy a NYCOM insurance plan, ($4 K) you cannot buy your own, the only exception is if you are on your parents plan. Friend looked it up, yes definitely not legal.

you think 4.5% is high? we average 10% at TCOM between 1 and 2 year and another 4-5% have to repeat 2nd year.
 
4.5 and 10% are both high.....Especially for a place like NYCOM with such a large class. That is a lot of students. I have no idea how large TCOM is.

We had 2 kids have to repeat first year, or at least part of it. One of them asked to do it and the other got sick. Despite passing her classes, they recommended she redo the first year. Anyway, 2 people was a complete shock for us.
 
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Anyone can check my past posts and they'll see that I'm usually very supportive of DO schools, but when it comes to attrition, DO schools need to get their act together. I don't know of a single allopathic school that would kick someone out first semester of first year. I don't even know of one that kicks students out after first year. All the ones I'm familiar with make you repeat first year before they kick you out. A number of DO schools don't bother with that. It's a shame too because I'd think you'd have a huge stigma against you if you tried to reapply with a dismissal on your file. I know you can do it, but it must be hard.

I don't know why DO schools are so unforgiving in this regard.
 
4.5 and 10% are both high.....Especially for a place like NYCOM with such a large class. That is a lot of students. I have no idea how large TCOM is.

We had 2 kids have to repeat first year, or at least part of it. One of them asked to do it and the other got sick. Despite passing her classes, they recommended she redo the first year. Anyway, 2 people was a complete shock for us.

We lost 6/135 (4.4%) in the first semester, all "voluntarily" (some people supposedly took medical leaves while others simply quit). The administration seemed "shocked" by this, but I'm not sure how it compares to past years.

Another couple of people seemed to disappear in the second semester, but these dropouts haven't been "confirmed" yet.
 
Despite passing her classes, they recommended she redo the first year.

That's pure, unmitigated BS on the part of the administration. I'd be super pissed if this was "recommended" to me.
 
come on guys, anybody got something to say for PCOM?

Im really interested in a specific review of some of the faculty..who you think is good/bad? what classes they teach and what areas do you think they were able to prep you best for in terms of boards and what professors didn't prepare you much?

note: I know you prepare yourself for boards and all, but the first two years of class also prepare you a lot. I am interested to know a little about that please...

If that's okay with you of course :)
 
At least they have a good rep and can sort of justify the cost. Plus they are in Cali and everything is expensive there.

True, my worry is the new campus will carry the same tuition (website says it hasn't been finalized yet but I don't see why it would be cheaper), and nothing is expensive in Lebanon, OR.

I'm just venting because if I want to stay in the Pacific Northwest, I'll basically be paying double for tuition if I was willing to go to the otherside of the country.

Looking forward to your review of PNWU, sylvanthus.
 
At least they have a good rep and can sort of justify the cost. Plus they are in Cali and everything is expensive there.

I'm sure Western didn't get their reputation overnight, nor in two years. It will take time to see how PNWU pans out and what reputation it earns for itself, but it is far too early now. Simple solution for you, quit worrying about it and don't apply to PNWU.
 
I'm sure Western didn't get their reputation overnight, nor in two years. It will take time to see how PNWU pans out and what reputation it earns for itself, but it is far too early now. Simple solution for you, quit worrying about it and don't apply to PNWU.


:laugh: Funny, but you know the game. You go where you get in. Secondary is already in the making.
 
:laugh: Funny, but you know the game. You go where you get in. Secondary is already in the making.

True. I actually ended up turning down one of those cheaper schools on the other side of the countru to go to PNWU. Sure I wanted to stan in the NW, but PNWU seemed to have a much better game plan than this other established school.
 
Anyone want to do an OUCOM...hopefully an OOSer to give some insight on if they feel the 5 yr contract is worth the education?
 
my class was 173 i believe. we had 155 start 2nd year. at the beginning of third year we were still at 155 after accepting a a half dozen transfer students so we lost some more there.

Some people quit with passing grades, others were forced to sit out the rest of the year and repeat the first or second year when the next cycle came around. some first years were withdrawn during first year and placed in the post bac program for some more catch up work. It was a variety of different reasons for this large an attrition rate.



4.5 and 10% are both high.....Especially for a place like NYCOM with such a large class. That is a lot of students. I have no idea how large TCOM is.

We had 2 kids have to repeat first year, or at least part of it. One of them asked to do it and the other got sick. Despite passing her classes, they recommended she redo the first year. Anyway, 2 people was a complete shock for us.
 
I'm pretty sure most schools have their fair share of students that don't get to move on for a number of reasons...academic, health, family, etc. At LMU-DCOM, at least, if you fail one class, you can remediate over the summer (NOT ideal though for anatomy at least because you have to go to a program somewhere out of state, there are like 4 options though), but if you fail two, you redo the entire year, even if they are both systems grades.

As far as what someone mentioned about students getting kicked out first semester or second semester being crazy, it really isn't that uncommon when it comes to non-academic things. LMU has had a few situations where students have acted unprofessionally, which they lecture and advise against again and again during orientation, and they have had to dismiss students. They take the issues very seriously...no inappropriate cadaver comments, no poor behavior in public, no inappropriate comments about OPP partners etc. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me when they've harped on it so much during orientation.
 
The last Des Moines Pro/Con update is over 2.5 years old, I was wondering if anyone could provide an updated version?
 
After graduating from TCOM, was the only DO in a military rotating internship. Frequent feedback was that my school had prepared me very well...had a 99% rating at the end of the year plus invited to join surg and IM. Check out their website...they have high board scores, etc. and Ft Worth is a nice place to live. (this applies to TX residents mainly...they don't take may OOS)
 
just an update on UMDNJ-SOM

Their IN-STATE tuition is now $30,000 a year. There will be more tuition increases each year. If you are starting at 30k this year for just tuition not housing etc, you can expect to be paying around $40,000 in tuition in the future because of the state budget problems and cuts to education spending.

Keep this in mind if deciding to go there. Seems like a lot of people are not happy with the new curriculumn they put in place.
 
lets get this thing updated with front line reports from new students

I might update DMU later. Can't really say much about rotations or board prep yet though.
 
lets get this thing updated with front line reports from new students

Only problem is you really need to be at least in your 3rd year to be able to comment on these things from experience. Otherwise I'd go ahead and do one for CCOM but it's just gonna have to wait. Overall though I'd say it's unlikely that things will change for a school from year to year. Any reviews within the last 2 years are usually relevant.
 
just an update on UMDNJ-SOM

Their IN-STATE tuition is now $30,000 a year. There will be more tuition increases each year. If you are starting at 30k this year for just tuition not housing etc, you can expect to be paying around $40,000 in tuition in the future because of the state budget problems and cuts to education spending.

Keep this in mind if deciding to go there. Seems like a lot of people are not happy with the new curriculumn they put in place.

In light of this, I'd like to post an addendum of sorts for UMDNJ-SOM.

Tuition for the UMDNJ system was cranked up 18-21% this year (depending on the campus). Consequently, as Pharmatope has pointed out, the in-state tuition is now sitting at around $30k a year. This makes SOM somewhat less of a bargain than it had been.

As far as the "improved" 1st year curriculum goes...they've changed it a lot. The block exams are no longer given all at once on the same day anymore; instead, they've split the subjects up over several days to allow for more study time. The incoming OMS-1s seem to be having a much easier time with this new curriculum. Additionally, the extremely frustrating mandatory 30-hour precepting requirement has been made into an optional 10-hour program, so students are much more pleased with that.

It also seems UMDNJ-SOM is making a serious effort towards expanding its GME programs. We have been told that neurology, neurosurgery, and physiatry residencies are being developed as we speak, and a big-name neurosurgeon from Jefferson is being brought in to direct the neurosurgery residency.
 
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4.5 and 10% are both high.....Especially for a place like NYCOM with such a large class. That is a lot of students. I have no idea how large TCOM is.

We had 2 kids have to repeat first year, or at least part of it. One of them asked to do it and the other got sick. Despite passing her classes, they recommended she redo the first year. Anyway, 2 people was a complete shock for us.

We lost 9-10% before MS2 at LECOM Seton Hill. It seemed like a lot to us.
 
4th Year DMU student perspective. Planning on doing allopathic-IM in Midwest. Only took COMLEX. I kept some comments from the previous DMU summary 3 yrs ago.

Curriculum: 1st year: Biochem, Anatomy, Phys, Micro faculty are great. Use mostly handouts for exam purposes. Texts are typically optional. Which is nice to save $$, but really wish I would have read more texts instead of just the handouts. Especially 2nd year. Wish I would have read the corresponding Harrison’s section for Cards, GI, Pulm, etc. The basic science stuff is pretty standard. It’s the extra’s that sets DMU apart. Second year has a 25 hr surgery course that really prepares you for your surgery rotation. Most students from other med schools show up to the OR and have no idea how to scrub in or throw a decent knot. Get training in basic procedures too, which is super helpful. The standardized patient labs are very helpful too. Good practice for clincial years. Pathology is the one course that is sub-standard. But the faculty do a good job of incorporating path into each system during second year, so that sort of makes up for it. Class attendence is optional. But really, why are you paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to sit at home and do “online” medical school. GO TO CLASS (just my opinon). The lecture mp3s and Notepool are helpful if you are sick, or going out of town for a few days, etc. Overall, felt very prepared for COMLEX. The Kaplan class after 2nd year is great. Lot of material, good visiting Kaplan profs.

OMM: Heavily stressed. Wish the exam questions were more board-style. Took an OMM practical after 3rd year (after doing/reviewing virtually no OMM) and got the same score as right after 2nd year. Point being, that they teach it so well, you can’t forget it, no matter how hard you try ;) I wish you didn’t have to wear OMM uniforms, but that’s just a small gripe. Lots of opportunities to learn more unconventional, practical OMM if that interests you.

Location: Great midwest town. Affordable, easy to get around. Plenty to do on the weekends, especially for outdoorsy types. Great schools if you have kids. Fair number of job opportunites for spouses. Close to MSP/Chicago/KC.

Cost: No idea what tuition is now. But Des Moines is very affordable. Housing is more affordable and nicer if you are willing to drive 10-15 min. Traffic is non-existant, so you can move to a suburb. Parking is almost always available, small fee for a 4 year pass.

Faculty: Really amazing. They are at DMU because they want to teach and do research, not do research and are required to teach. Very friendly, personable. Willing to hold special review sessions, meet after hours, etc. One always wandered the study rooms/library the night before the exam to answer any students questions. He even bought pizza once. Won’t find that at Big-Med-U. Clinicians are great during 2nd year too. Some get cranky when students don’t come to class, and I guess I can’t blame them.

Reputation: Good reputation at allopathic schools/hospitals in the Midwest.

Clinical Rotations: Good and bad. For my class, half stayed in DM, half went to “Core” sites in MI, OH, MN, WY, etc. Not sure what they have planned for incoming classes. They have been saying for years (since I applied) that they want all 3rd year students to stay in Iowa. But the reality is, that probably won’t happen. They need their core sites in MI/OH/etc. Iowa just doesn’t have enough hospitals willing to take 3rd yr med students for a whole year. My 3rd yr I trained at a small community hospital with just 1 other med student and 15 residents (similar situation for a lot of DMU-ers). Advantage is that you don’t have to compete with a million med students/residents for patient access. More independence and opportunities for direct pt care. Become very familiar with bread and butter medicine (H&P, oral presentation, how to manage HTN/COPD/well-baby/etc). Disadvatage is that you may not see the variety of pathology/interventions offered at Big-U hospital. Have a LOT of freedom that other med schools don’t offer. Can spend your entire 4th year traveling the country, getting a feel for other programs. But, the downside is that you will have to be VERY proactive/hardworking in setting up these rotations.


Study areas: Fantastic. Library and commons area updated a few years ago. Can usually find a study room. Can always find a spot in the library.

School Policies: No dress code. Class attendence optional, but as mentioned, some clinicians get crabby when students don’t show up. Very strict honors code.

Social Scene: Plenty to do for an average size midwest city.

Local Hospitals: Mercy and Methodist are the two main hospitals, but Mercy is the one most students rotate at for core hospital. They have an allo FP residency and an AOA gen surg residency, but it’s a private hospital with lots of private physician groups, so experiences on rotations can vary a lot. Methodist has an allo peds, IM and gen surg residency, but the gen surg is rather anti-DO…most of the peds and some IM residents are DMU grads, however, and students often rotate there. Some specialty services (nephro, heme/onc) require students to be committed to applying to their IM program in order to rotate…why, I’m not sure…it’s a stupid rule. There’s also a VA and a county hospital, the latter of which is very popular with students…requests for rotations often outnumber requests for Mercy. There are also many surrounding communities, 15-45 minute-drives away, which offer lots of various experiences including core hospital blocks. Basically, if you want to stay here for your entire 3rd and 4th year, it’s doable, but you may want to branch out to larger facilities for gas, rads, heme/onc, OB and a few others. (This is from the previous DMU summary. I can’t comment, as I have never spent time in local hospitals)

Board Prep: KAPLAN teaches a COMLEX 1 prep course. Included in tuition, and well worth it.


Curriculum: A
Location: A
Cost: C
Financial Aid: A
Faculty: A
Reputation: A
Technology: A
Study Space/Library: A
Library technology/Resources: A
Rotations: C to A (depending on how willing you are to travel and how motivated you are)
Social: A
Hospitals: C to A
Post Grad opportunity: D


Overall Grade: A
PM me with disputes or questions.

;)
 
4th Year DMU student perspective. Planning on doing allopathic-IM in Midwest. Only took COMLEX. I kept some comments from the previous DMU summary 3 yrs ago.



Post Grad opportunity: D




;)


Thanks, Chevelle, for the thorough review. Could you elaborate on the D for post-grad opportunity?

Thanks,
 
I'm a first year, so I won't be able to provide much insight on the clinical stuff....

Curriculum: The curriculum is pretty well thought out. If a class was really hard in previous years, they'll make adjustments in the scheduling or organization of the class to make it better for the students. Anatomy is hard at first, but everyone has gotten used to it and the grades have improved. Biochem/Physio/Histo are sort of combined, which is a little weird, but we have to learn that stuff anyway, so it doesn't really matter how they organize it. The attendance policy is that we have to go to 70% of the lectures, and it's really not that bad. I think most of us have found that we do better when we attend lecture.

Basically - it's a lot of work, most of us have lives.


Location: Henderson is your average suburban city with everything you need. You don't need to go to Vegas to have a good time, although there's nothing like the strip! Housing is cheap if you're from California. Expensive if you're from the midwest.

Cost: around 37, 000 a year

Faculty: Most of the faculty are actually REALLY good, a few are straight up geniuses, and most are extremely nice and available.

Reputation: The school is only 4 years old. I'm not sure what the reputation is.

Study areas: They're decent - library is pretty small, but there are study rooms. Most of the DO students also invade the PA and nursing study rooms because they're newer (nicer).

Social scene: The class is really friendly. You have a good mix of married people and single people. The Mormons hang out with Athiests, White people hang out with Asian people, nobody cares! But of course you have the stereotypes - Gunners, people who spread rumors....Oh that reminds me - a large age range too. Some of the 22 year olds can be kind of immature, but then you have people in their late 20s, 30s and 40s, to provide a balance.

Other stuff:

Parking: Some people complain about the parking, but if you went to a big public school, like any of the UC's then you won't complain at all.

Food and Drink: No cafeteria. Just vending machines.

I second this review. Pretty spot on. I am going to miss the Henderson area. very peaceful and quiet. It is all relative right?
 
The writer of KCUMB's review on Page 16 did an excellent job; I'd like to give my 2 cents regarding the rotation opportunities available to those KCUMB students who stay in KC for rotations.

Unless it's at Truman/Children's Mercy (UMKC affiliated) or KU, you're most likely going to rotate with DOs. This is good and bad. It's good the school supports its own, but most allopathic residencies want to see letters of recommendation from allopathic doctors. So you have to be sure to do some rotations at KU and UMKC.

Also, a lot of docs seem to take advantage of KCUMB's need for preceptors. I am not sure, someone else would have to say, but I believe the school either pays its preceptors or those docs get CME credit. Anyway, I had several "preceptors" who seemed to be doing it for the benefits, because they didn't make any attempt to teach, they treated me like a burden, they didn't give me any responsibility, and they gave me subpar reviews despite my performance being equal to other months where I got great evaluations.

What I'm trying to say is, if you attend KCUMB and stay in town for rotations, they're real hit or miss. And the school doesn't seem to get rid of docs known for being poor preceptors; I've heard of some receiving multiple complaints from students this past year yet still get students this coming year.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM me.

Jake
 
I would love to hear more about the rotation sites and organization at CCOM and MSU-COM. I'm currently trying to decide between the two schools.
 
As a 4th year finishing CCOM next spring, I'll put my two cents in.

Curriculum:
The first two years are spent on campus. I'll just highlight some points with each department:
- Anatomy: the best division (IMO); great profs and great organized lecture materials that is systems based; included histology, embryology, gross anatomy, and neuroanatomy
- Psych: 5 quarters is a lot; PhD profs form the grad program and sometimes outside attendings; low stress lectures and organized well
- Biochem: shared general lectures with pharm, PA, and biomed students; smaller discussion classes to go over clinically relevant assignments; the department head title is passed around the different professors; overall they try to listen to the students to improve their class, but its above average. Somewhat disorganized
- Health care issues: a 1 quarter class lumped with all the other schools on campus; pass/fail waste of time
- History of medicine: a 1 quarter class where each student rights a paper about one profession in medicine; pass/fail and also a waste of time
- Physiology: 3 quarters of general lecture and small discussion class with clinically relevant assignments. Faculty for the most part were decent teachers. Material not so straight forward.
- Pathology: 3 quarters taught by practicing pathologists (MDs and DOs); lectures; attendance dwindled to less than 15-20% cuz their exam questions were recycled from old circulating exams from previous years; overall good lectures if you went (except for one doc who was so boring)
- Pharm: combined with PA, Pharm and biomed students. Notes were straight forward and can get a B+ without going to class. Again circulating old exams are key with that. Some profs were good others boring as hell
- Immunology/Micro: most challenging class (all memorization), but taught very well so that you were prepped for boards. Boring professors, but they submit questions for COMLEX I so its money well spent.
- OMM: 2 years of lecture and skills lab. The lab is very nicely furnished with well kept tables and flatscreen TVs everywhere (that's where my tuition went to); faculty are quirky, but they teach at national conference; also a good prep for boards (I think they also submit questions for COMLEX I)
- Clinical medicine class: the worst of them all; taught by IM and EM physicians that also sit on our residency selection committee for MWU programs; they teach practical medicine which is good, but it does not prep you for the medicine on the boards (although that's what they say they are doing); it will only get better; overall average
- others: I think you're required to shadow a doc once a quarter during your 2nd year and only once during your whole first year; i think you have 3 OSCE (simulated patient exams) which does closely mimics COMLEX PE.

Location: Downers Grove is an upper middle class southwest suburb of Chicago. Safe and great for those with families. Malls and franchised restaurants galore. Too far from the awesome nightlife in the city (~45+ minutes commute) It is quietly flanked by a forest preserve and houses so its green and clean. Except for those damn geese, its a really great campus.

Cost: around 49,000 a year in tuition alone...slap like 15-20k for living costs

Faculty: Just like when you buy a bag of grapes: some are excellent, some are good and a few you just have to throw away. All kidding aside, most are approachable and friendly. LOTS of forced accountability because they don't trust the students to be responsible (partly true) You get beaten over the head with being "professional" because one bad apple in your class or you're just paying for the sins of your predecessors

Reputation: We are 110 years old. Our dean was just elected to be president of the AOA (maybe we get some kind of perks? highly unlikely). Currently, constructing the dental school that will house the new anatomy lab on the top floor...state of the art from what I was told in passing.

Study areas: The two story library is really nice and the study rooms are available all over campus. Brand new windows 7 OS on new computers...I think there are 3 computer labs.

Social scene: Great if you're married with kids, but again all the nightlife is in the city. You'll share the campus with pharm, PA, biomed, and PT students all year round. And the dental students will start next year so lots of co-mingling

Parking: Right now it sucks due to more people coming on campus + the construction, but they are planning to expand the parking lot next.

Food and Drink: Currently expanding the cafeteria. Decent dinning facility with a big screen TV in the basement to watch CNN or whatever between classes or just ditching them.

Recreations: Indoor basketball courts, workout area, outdoor soccer field. You can tell who the PT students are cuz they're doing ultimate Frisbee while the med students watch from the library.
 
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3rd year rotations:
There is a lottery during the second year to determine your 3rd year rotation schedule. Some people make a big deal about when to do certain specialty, but in my honest opinion, the lottery for your 4th year is more important to get your elective months early. Only 4 weeks of vacation for the entire 3rd and 4th year so use it wisely. Can no longer split the vacation (ie two weeks in 3rd year and 2 weeks in 4th). Only 3 weeks of summer break between 2nd and 3rd year to get your step 1 boards done (either USMLE I or COMLEX I). Its not necessary to get it done before 3rd year starts, but I did so I didn't have it hanging over my head during my IM months.

Internal medicine:
- one month of IM and one month of IM specialty
- IM core sites: Swedish Covenant, Cook County, Lutheran General, St. James Hospital (all have a IM residencies);
- IM specialty sites: above locations plus local private practice
- once a week lectures on campus taught by a IM or EM attending/resident
- work with residents
- weekly online CLIPS cases with questions
- NBME shelf exam at the end of the 2 months

Elective rotation:
- one month
- can only do 8 weeks of a specialty TOTAL during the 3rd and 4th year (ie. rads, path, PM/R, research) but unlimited for IM and family medicine (not sure about IM specialties)
- can go to an international rotation (school has a DOCARE program that goes to a Latin country)

Psychiatry rotation:
- one month
- core sites: Swedish, Streamwood, Cook County, private practice, etc.
- class once a week on campus
- Case presentation on one patient at the end of the month
- no residents
- NBME shelf

Surgery rotation:
- formats: 1 month general + 1 month specialty or 8 weeks at one location
- core sites: Resurrection Medical, Cook County, Illinois Masonic, St. James
- class once a week on campus
- residents
- NBME shelf at the end of 2 months

Pediatrics and OB/GYN:
- 6 weeks of peds then 6 weeks of OB/GYN or vice versa
- core sites: UIC/Advocate Christ Hospital, Little Company of Mary, Swedish Covenant, Lutheran General?, private practices, etc.
- class once a week on campus
- weekly online CLIPS cases
- work with residents
- NBME shelf at the end each 6 week rotation

Family Medicine
- 3 months (way too long for my taste); split 6 weeks at 2 locations
- core sites: lots of options - hospital (have residents) and private practices
- class once a week on campus
- weekly quizzes
- NBME shelf at the end of 12 weeks

4th year
Two weeks of break between 3rd and 4th year. There are two schedule formats, either 3 months of IM or 2 months of IM + 1 month family medicine. I did 3 months of IM. Again, get the the track with electives early in 4th year to visit your residency programs before you submit ERAS apps.

Clinical Integrative Seminar (CIS)
- 3 weeks REQUIRED on campus for everyone - total waste of time
- lectures to prep for COMLEX II - waste of time
- you take an exam at the end of the 3 weeks
- OSCE exam to prep for COMLEX PE - actually useful
- goes over ERAS, CV, applications for residencies, personal statements, and loan repayments
- 1 week of break before you start your REAL 4th year rotations

OMM rotation
- one month
- core sites: seemed like most sites were family practice docs
- once a week return to campus to be a teaching assistant for the OMM lab for the 1st and 2nd years, unless your OMM was right after CIS like me and didn't have to be a TA
- 25 q multiple choice exam and skills exam at the end of the month
- will start some kind of online lecture that will be required starting next year

Electives:
- 3 months (some tracks have these months split up or consecutively)
- use these months to visit residencies

Emergency rotation:
- one month
- core sites: Swedish Covenant, Providence, St. Bernard's, St. Francis, St. James, Cook County, etc.
- return to campus once week for lectures
- end of the month EM exam

Surgery rotation:
- one month: general or specialty of choice
- sites: either core sites or non-core sites (you may need to get paperwork for it if its not listed)
- don't have to come back to campus
- no exam

Internal Medicine
- either 3 months or 2 months + 1 month FM; one month has to be a sub-intern month (I'm doing ICU)
- sites: either core sites or non-core sites (you may need to get paperwork for it if its not listed)
- don't have to come back to campus
- no exam
- weekly online CLIPS cases

Overall, I really like the clinical rotations. You're in Chicago so you will be sharing rotations with UIC, CMS, Loyola and foreign medical students. Lots of great academic and community residencies all over the city. The one major problem is the long commute to hospitals so plan where you want to live during the 3rd and 4th year. Yes living in Wrigleyville or Lincoln Park is sweet because of the fantastic nightlife, but you may get stuck with a rotation in Joliet (> 90 minute commute). Once you hit your track off the lottery, then you choose the top 4 sites. Those sites are given randomly and you may rarely end up in Rockford, Kankanee, or even Michigan because they can't find enough sites in Chicago. Lots of the private practices that offer rotations are in the south suburbs down to Joliet. You can design your rotations in the city like I did. I think I was lucky because I got my first choice 33% of the time and never got anything beyond my top 4. Some of my classmates never got their top choices.

Hope this helps
 
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I would avoid any new DO schools that are not accredited yet. Wait till they graduate their first class. I personally wouldn't go to a school without an accreditation hanging over my head. The dean and whoever can say whatever they want about it, but seeing is believing.
 
Whoa there. I advise any reasonable prospective student interested in a true DO medical education, with an interest in serving the underserved populations of the mid-South US to consider WCU-COM very seriously. I speak here as a senior member of the pre-clinical faculty, so yes I am definitely biased. However, having retired from teaching med school after over 30 years? - THIS school got me to get back in action. WHY? Because it has very, very great promise. And - now halfway thru our very first semester?

Contact our current students! See what THEY think. Compare faculty on board at WCU-COM with those elsewhere. Compare facilities. Ask yourself - what do YOU want/need/desire in medical education. WCU-COM is traditionally discipline based, lectures/labs ARE emphasized; self-study is not.

No one school is appropriate for all. BUT, please do not discount WCU-COM just because it has yet to graduate a class of students. This school obtained provisional accreditation in much less than 1/2 the usual time! Why? Because the administration, the faculty and the University HAVE their act together!

BTW- better hurry! Our applications are piling up and I understand that we have a very competitive pool of aspiring students. I, myself, am not a member of the Admissions Committee, but I do get to interview. And, frankly, I am as proud and supportive of our new students here at WCU-COM as I have ever been in my previous two medical school (allopathic) situations.
 
I would avoid any new DO schools that are not accredited yet. Wait till they graduate their first class. I personally wouldn't go to a school without an accreditation hanging over my head. The dean and whoever can say whatever they want about it, but seeing is believing.


I think you need to come up with a better reason for not attending a school because its not credited yet. The chance of a school not receiving its accreditation or graduating a class is very unlikely. Rotation sites are probably one of the most important things to take into consideration if you are thinking about choosing to attend a new school.
 
Let me rephrase this. Although new DO schools will more than likely get accredited, its just one variable in the choice of school you ultimately choose. Of course, an older school can be smacked with a probation that can effect your choice. There are also many other variables that do come into play such as rotation sites, price, location, and family. Not everyone is going grade schools the same, nor do I expect them to.

I guess I'm just a cynic and I need to see that the graduates are going to be solid when they got out. I'm sure the students and faculty of said schools are great, but I need to the see the end results. Maybe a bad analogy, but if I'm going to buy a smart phone, I'd like to know what to expect from a product on the market that has been tested and scored well by critics. This is just me...but people will determine their own criteria to judge a school. I'm probably in the minority who feel this way and I apologize if I offended others, but this is an important decision to make for the next 4 years of your life. Now if someone is gonna talk about the AOA, I'd probably get banned from SDN
 
new schools without a graduated class are still working out kinks, trying to make the right connections (rotation sites for example) and get the most effective faculty, but the fact is that they are nowhere near as stable as most older schools. I interviewed at one that is a few years old, and one that was over a hundred years old. To me (everything else being equal) there is no contest. A year later and I am extremely happy with my decision.
 
Former TCOM review removed because it no longer stands true.
 
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