2011-2012 Washington University in St. Louis Application Thread

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ksmi117 said:
Yeah, y'all should call the office and they'll fix it for you.
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I had two open dates: Jan 25 and 27 - maybe they just opened or something?
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EleanorAutumn said:
I had two open dates: Jan 25 and 27 - maybe they just opened or something?
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I read in earlier threads that WashU is big on waitlisting people late in the game ... any current students have any input on this? Is interviewing at the end of January like pretty much interviewing for waitlist positions? Any current students on here interview late in the season?

Any input would be much appreciated!
 
EleanorAutumn said:
I read in earlier threads that WashU is big on waitlisting people late in the game ... any current students have any input on this? Is interviewing at the end of January like pretty much interviewing for waitlist positions? Any current students on here interview late in the season?

Any input would be much appreciated!
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I personally did not interview late, but a lot of my classmates did. Some of them were on the waitlist prior to getting in, but not all of them. I think no matter what rolling acceptance school you're talking about, it's harder to get in if you interview late, but WashU generally does see a lot of waitlist movement, so in the end, there are a lot of people who interviewed later in the year who get accepted here. But there are people who interviewed the last week who got accepted without being waitlisted too so anything can happen.
 
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ksmi117 said:
I personally did not interview late, but a lot of my classmates did. Some of them were on the waitlist prior to getting in, but not all of them. I think no matter what rolling acceptance school you're talking about, it's harder to get in if you interview late, but WashU generally does see a lot of waitlist movement, so in the end, there are a lot of people who interviewed later in the year who get accepted here. But there are people who interviewed the last week who got accepted without being waitlisted too so anything can happen.
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Thanks for the input! Do you happen to know what days WashU interviews during the week? Last night when I signed up for a date there were only two options and I was hoping to call the office tomorrow to try and get a new date, but figured if I knew ahead of time which days of the week they typically interview, it would help in formulating possibilities (for dates).
 
EleanorAutumn said:
Thanks for the input! Do you happen to know what days WashU interviews during the week? Last night when I signed up for a date there were only two options and I was hoping to call the office tomorrow to try and get a new date, but figured if I knew ahead of time which days of the week they typically interview, it would help in formulating possibilities (for dates).
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They interview every weekday.
 
Cinclus said:
I sent mine about a week after my interview. That way, I was able to include how much I enjoyed the interview, how I loved the school, how I felt it was a great fit, etc. It was a combined update/interest letter. They told me they added it to my file.
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Out of curiosity, about how long was your letter? Or how long do letters or interest or update letters tend to be?

It would be easy to write 2 pages single spaced but I think that would be a little excessive.

Thankssss
 
ialwayslose said:
Out of curiosity, about how long was your letter? Or how long do letters or interest or update letters tend to be?

It would be easy to write 2 pages single spaced but I think that would be a little excessive.

Thankssss
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Mine was about 3/5 of a page with two paragraphs, single spaced. I don't know what the norm is.
 
Cinclus said:
Mine was about 3/5 of a page with two paragraphs, single spaced. I don't know what the norm is.
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haha you give fractions more specific than 1/4's ...just like me... CRAZY :scared:

thanks - mine will probably end up being around 1 page
 
During the application process, I ended up sending WashU 2 letters, one was a little over a page and the other was exactly a page. I think around there is probably the norm.
 
Hey y'all - on the visiting arrangements it says the pizza party is 'strongly recommended' but my flight gets in after the pizza party ends ... is this really bad? Should I try and figure out a flight plan that sets it up so I can attend the pizza party?

I figure it is just a meet-and-greet gathering and has no influence on our decision, but thought I'd extend the situation to some of the current students on here to get their feedback.

Thanks for any input!
 
EleanorAutumn said:
Hey y'all - on the visiting arrangements it says the pizza party is 'strongly recommended' but my flight gets in after the pizza party ends ... is this really bad? Should I try and figure out a flight plan that sets it up so I can attend the pizza party?

I figure it is just a meet-and-greet gathering and has no influence on our decision, but thought I'd extend the situation to some of the current students on here to get their feedback.

Thanks for any input!
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While it is a good way to talk to current students and get to know the other interviewees before the interview day, it's no big deal if you miss it. The admissions office has no way of knowing who goes and who doesn't. And you'll have plenty of time to talk to students during the interview day between breakfast, lunch, and your tour.
 
ksmi117 said:
While it is a good way to talk to current students and get to know the other interviewees before the interview day, it's no big deal if you miss it. The admissions office has no way of knowing who goes and who doesn't. And you'll have plenty of time to talk to students during the interview day between breakfast, lunch, and your tour.
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Thank you! Your input is always so helpful! Could I bug you once more? Do you know if we need to do anything additionally to reserve a room in Olin the night before our interview? As in, if we have checked it off on our visiting arrangements, is that all we have to do?
 
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EleanorAutumn said:
Thank you! Your input is always so helpful! Could I bug you once more? Do you know if we need to do anything additionally to reserve a room in Olin the night before our interview? As in, if we have checked it off on our visiting arrangements, is that all we have to do?
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That should be it. :)
 
Wow! I havent come across another school yet in which the student(s) talk negatively about their lives as much as in this previous post! ...or maybe it's just my limited exposure thus far...

Thanks LSLGPK for your honest opinion! It's a rarity to hear as such...
 
I'm a little confused-

At my interview day, the students made a huge deal about how collaborative WashU is - are you saying they were ALL putting on a facade?

At my interview day, the students told me that the classes are NOT graded on a curve, and therefore the entire class could get honors if they earned it. -Is this not the case, or is honors simply such a difficult thing to attain?

I was also wondering about the match list at WashU. As a student, would you be able to share it with us? I think it would be very interesting to see.
 
Here's last year's match list (from the 2010-11 thread). Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks pretty strong to me:

Here's the full list. In alphabetical order by specialty:

Anesthesiology - 4
Child Neurology - 2
Dermatology - 4
Diagnostic Radiology - 9
Emergency Medicine - 10
Family Medicine - 1
General Surgery - 7
Internal Medicine - 25
Internal Medicine/Primary - 1
Neurosurgery - 1
Neurology - 4
Ob/Gyn - 6
Ophthalmology - 7
Orthopaedic Surgery - 6
Otolaryngology - 4
Pathology - 3
Pediatrics - 15
Plastic Surgery - 2
Psychiatry - 3
Radiation Oncology - 1
Urology - 1
Prelim Medicine - 12
Transitional Year - 8

In alphabetical order by specialty:

Anesthesiology Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania
Anesthesiology Jackson Memorial Hospital
Anesthesiology University of California - San Francisco
Anesthesiology University of California - San Francisco
Child Neurology Mayo School of Graduate Medical Education
Child Neurology St. Louis Children’s Hospital
Dermatology Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Dermatology Stanford University
Dermatology Tulane University
Dermatology University of Illinois
Diagnostic Radiology Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Diagnostic Radiology Beth-Israel Deaconess Medical Center
Diagnostic Radiology Duke University Medical Center
Diagnostic Radiology Loyola University Medical Center
Diagnostic Radiology Queen's University/Kingston General Hospital
Diagnostic Radiology University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
Diagnostic Radiology University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
Diagnostic Radiology University of Texas Health Science Center
Diagnostic Radiology University of Washington
Emergency Medicine Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center
Emergency Medicine Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center
Emergency Medicine Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center
Emergency Medicine Cook County-John H. Stroger Hospital
Emergency Medicine Hennepin County Medical Center
Emergency Medicine Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania
Emergency Medicine Johns Hopkins Hospital
Emergency Medicine New York Methodist Hospital
Emergency Medicine New York Presbyterian Hospital - Columbia & Cornell
Emergency Medicine UCLA Medical Center
Family Medicine University of Massachusetts
General Surgery Mayo School of Graduate Medical Education
General Surgery University of California - San Francisco
General Surgery University of Colorado
General Surgery University of Texas Medical School
General Surgery University of Virginia
General Surgery University of Washington
General Surgery University of Wisconsin Hospital and Clinics
Internal Medicine Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center
Internal Medicine Cleveland Clinic Foundation
Internal Medicine Duke University
Internal Medicine Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania
Internal Medicine Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania
Internal Medicine Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania
Internal Medicine Massachusetts General Hospital
Internal Medicine Massachusetts General Hospital
Internal Medicine New York Presbyterian Hospital-Weill Cornell Medical Ctr
Internal Medicine Northwestern McGaw Medical Center
Internal Medicine University of Massachusetts
Internal Medicine University of Vermont
Internal Medicine University of Washington
Internal Medicine University of Washington
Internal Medicine Yale-New Haven Hospital
Internal Medicine/Primary Massachusetts General Hospital
Internal Medicine-Preliminary Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine-Preliminary Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine-Preliminary Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Internal Medicine-Preliminary Einstein/Beth Israel Medical Center
Internal Medicine-Preliminary St. Luke’s Hospital
Internal Medicine-Preliminary University of Illinois
Internal Medicine-Preliminary University of Missouri, Kansas City
Internal Medicine-Preliminary University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
Internal Medicine-Preliminary University of Texas Health Science Center
Internal Medicine-Preliminary University of Texas Southwestern Medical School
Internal Medicine-Preliminary University of Virginia
Internal Medicine-Preliminary University of Washington
Neurological Surgery Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Neurology Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Neurology Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Neurology Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Neurology Jackson Memorial Hospital
Obstetrics and Gynecology Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Obstetrics and Gynecology Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Obstetrics and Gynecology Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Obstetrics and Gynecology University of California - San Diego
Obstetrics and Gynecology University of Illinois
Obstetrics and Gynecology University of Vermont
Ophthalmology UCLA Medical Center
Ophthalmology UCLA Medical Center
Ophthalmology University of Rochester, Flaum Eye Institute
Ophthalmology University of Texas Southwestern Medical School
Ophthalmology University of Texas Southwestern Medical School
Ophthalmology University of Washington
Ophthalmology Washington University School of Medicine
Orthopaedic Surgery Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Orthopaedic Surgery Hospital for Special Surgery
Orthopaedic Surgery SUNY Upstate Medical University
Orthopaedic Surgery University of Iowa
Orthopaedic Surgery University of Rochester/Strong Memorial Hospital
Orthopaedic Surgery University of Washington
Otolaryngology Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Otolaryngology Duke University
Otolaryngology UCLA Medical Center
Otolaryngology UCLA Medical Center
Pathology Barnes-Jewish Hospital
Pathology Massachusetts General Hospital
Pathology Penrose Hospital
Pediatrics Children's Hospital
Pediatrics Children's Hospital
Pediatrics Children's Hospital of Philadelphia
Pediatrics Cincinnati Children's Hospital
Pediatrics Mayo School of Graduate Medical Education
Pediatrics Medical College of Wisconsin
Pediatrics St. Louis Children's Hospital
Pediatrics St. Louis Children's Hospital
Pediatrics St. Louis Children's Hospital
Pediatrics St. Louis Children's Hospital
Pediatrics St. Louis Children's Hospital
Pediatrics St. Louis Children's Hospital
Pediatrics University of California - San Francisco
Pediatrics University of Michigan Hospitals
Pediatrics University of Washington
Plastic Surgery University of Texas Southwestern Medical School
Plastic Surgery University of Washington
Psychiatry Massachusetts General Hospital
Psychiatry New York Presbyterian Hospital - Columbia
Psychiatry New York University School of Medicine
Radiation Oncology Cleveland Clinic Foundation
Transitional Year Harbor-UCLA Medical Center
Transitional Year Riverside Regional Medical Center
Transitional Year Santa Clara Valley Medical Center
Transitional Year St. John’s Mercy Medical Center
Transitional Year St. John’s Mercy Medical Center
Transitional Year St. John’s Mercy Medical Center
Transitional Year St. John’s Mercy Medical Center
Transitional Year Virginia Mason Medical Center
Urology Washington University School of Medicine
 
http://medadmissions.wustl.edu/FactsandResources/studentstatistics/Pages/NRMPInternshipandResidencyMatches.aspx

^match statistics they do publish online (kind of hard to find on their website)

i'm also wondering about whether exams are curved.

it's worrisome to me that lslgbk is being advised to re-think long term goals before having gotten his/her (much more important?) clinical year grades and step scores. regardless thanks for posting your side of the story, i really hope things work out for you in the end.
 
Exams aren't curved per se but are refined in terms of difficulty to create stratification. 90% = H, 80% = HP. Also, the match data you quoted show exactly what I mean. St. Louis Children's Hospital and Barnes Jewish are ours. St. John's Mercy is often a transitional year for feeding into our programs. The match list that maowl quoted should be compared with other schools in the top ten for the fields I listed. You'll see the difference.
 
For what it's worth: "Residency Directors Scores 2011": http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=720207

WashU is ranked 3rd behind Harvard and Hopkins.

The non-pass/fail grading does seem to be out of step with the other top10s maybe top15s and beyond, but as was mentioned Penn is not entirely P/F and lots of people are still in love with it and almost everyone I know that's interviewed or attended loves it.

If WashU truly does have a higher acceptance rate and lower yield than would be expected for a school of its perceived prestige I don't doubt its due mostly to its location which for many people makes it much less desirable than the other top tens. Of course many people also appreciate St. Louis's low cost-of-living.

I did notice there were far fewer interviewees from Ivies at WashU than my other interviews. I'm not sure what that means if anything. It could also have been a random coincidence of my particular interview day.
 
2011 WUMS Match:
136 total in that list, 20 in prelim medicine or transitional, leaving 116 categoricals
Of the categoricals, 26% are inbred (to Barnes-Jewish, WUSM, St Louis Children's).
For the 2006-2011 data table, the inbreeding (Barnes-Jewish, St Louis Children's, St John's Mercy) is slightly lower at 20%.
Competitive specialties (81+% of US slots filled, basis of this in an article in Academic Medicine on residency selection criteria):
plastics - 2, orthopedics - 6, ENT - 4, optho - 7, radiology - 9, rad-onc - 1, neurosurgery - 1; this sums to 26% of all categorical matches.
In addition, 4 in derm.

2010 WUMS Match here:
115 total in list, 1 transitional, leaving 114 categoricals. Of categoricals, 29% are inbred.
Competitive specialties:
plastics - 2, orthopedics - 9, ENT - 3, optho - 7, radiology - 12, rad-onc - 0, neurosurgery - 1; sums to 30% of categorical matches.
In addition, 6 in derm.

2011 HMS Match here:
170 total in list, 3 non-residency (?!), 2 prelim surg, 1 prelim med, leaving 164 categorical. Of categoricals, 45% are inbred (MGH, BWH, BIDMC, Children's, Cambridge Health Alliance, Mass Eye Ear).
Competitive specialties:
plastics - 4, orthopedics - 6, ENT - 5, optho - 7, radiology - 9, rad-onc - 7, neurosurgery - 4; sums to 26% of categorical matches.
In addition, 5 in derm.

2010 HMS Match here:
144 total in list, 2 non-residency, leaving 142 categorical. Of categoricals, 37% are inbred (MGH, BWH, BIDMC, Children's, CHA, MEEI)
Competitive specialties:
plastics - 2, orthopedics - 8, ENT - 2, optho - 6, radiology - 11, rad-onc - 5, neurosurgery - 7; sums to 27% of categorical matches.
In addition, 6 in derm.

2011 JHU Match list not found - but 34 of 97 was inbred (35%).

2010 JHU Match here:
150 total in list, 27 prelim med, 4 surg prelim, leaving 119 categorical. Of categoricals,
34% are inbred (Hopkins, Bayview)
Competitive specialties:
plastics - 0, orthopedics - 3, ENT - 5, optho - 8, radiology - 4, rad-onc - 2, neurosurgery - 3; sums to 24% of categorical matches.
In addition, 4 in derm.

2011 Stanford Match here:
85 total in list, 1 prelim med, leaving 84 categorical. Of categoricals, 33% are inbred (Stanford).
Competitive specialties:
plastics - 2, orthopedics - 4, ENT - 1, optho - 4, radiology - 9, rad-onc - 3, neurosurgery - 3; sums to 31% of categorical matches.
In addition, 2 in derm.

2010 Stanford Match here:
89 total in list (but the post claims 93), all categorical as far as I can tell. Of them, 26% are inbred (Stanford).
Competitive specialties:
plastics - 2, orthopedics - 7, ENT - 3, optho - 6, radiology - 6, rad-onc - 2, neurosurgery - 3; sums to 33% of matches listed.
In addition, 5 in derm.

2011 Penn Match here:
135 total in list, 2 prelim surgery, leaving 133 categorical. Of categoricals, 38% are inbred (HUP, CHOP, Scheie).
Competitive specialties:
plastics - 0, orthopedics - 5, ENT - 2, optho - 7, radiology - 13, rad-onc - 7, neurosurgery - 4; sums to 29% of categoricals.
In addition, 9 in derm.

2010 Penn Match here:
169 total in list, 9 transitional, 3 prelim surgery, 1 prelim peds, 2 prelim med/neurology, 15 prelim med, leaving 139 categorical. Of categoricals, 38% are inbred (HUP, CHOP, Scheie).
Competitive specialties:
plastics - 1, orthopedics - 4, ENT - 2, optho - 6, radiology - 6, rad-onc - 3, neurosurgery - 2; sums to 17% of categoricals.
In addition, 5 in derm.
=======
Summary:
School - inbred - competitive specialties
Code: 
WUMS 2011     - 26% - 26%
WUMS 2010     - 29% - 30%
HMS 2011      - 45% - 26%
HMS 2010      - 37% - 29%
JHU 2011      - 35% - ?
JHU 2010      - 34% - 24%
Stanford 2011 - 33% - 31%
Stanford 2010 - 26% - 33%
Penn 2011     - 38% - 29%
Penn 2010     - 38% - 17%

Conclusion: Based on match data from the past two years, excluding preliminary and transitional matches, WashU does not have a significantly higher proportion inbreeding nor significantly lower proportion matching to competitive specialties compared to its top 5 colleagues.
 
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Could a current student comment on apartment housing. I'm interested in living in the Central West End at a nice, safe, fairly new apartment. Hoping to pay <$1000 for a 1 Br or studio. Thanks. Any suggestions or comments is appreciated.
 
ElChamaco said:
I did notice there were far fewer interviewees from Ivies at WashU than my other interviews. I'm not sure what that means if anything. It could also have been a random coincidence of my particular interview day.
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The proportion interviewees from any given school varies widely by day. In my interview day (10 people?), I recall Harvard, 2x MIT, and Princeton.

Here's some non-anecdotal data: the undergraduate institutions of matriculants over 17 years taken from here

Code: 
Undergraduate Primary Institutions of Matriculating Students, 1995 – 2011	
Washington University		207
Harvard				88
Duke 				79
Stanford			72
UC Berkeley			51
Northwestern			48
U Michigan-Ann Arbor		48
Cornell				46
Yale				46
U Illinois-Champaign Urbana	42
Princeton			41
MIT				39

Conclusion: On average over the last 17 years, each WUMS class contains 12.2 WashU undergrads and 16.8 undergrads from HYPSM. (Context: current class size is ~121.) WashU also has regional selection, as indicated by the high number from a few midwest schools (Northwestern, Michigan, Illinois; 8.1 per class).

Unfortunately I don't know of any comparative data for this indicator (undergraduate institutions) other than Michigan and Vanderbilt.

For what it's worth, these are matriculation data in a recent year FROM Harvard undergrad (including seniors and alumni):
Code: 
Med school	Accept	Matric	Yield
Harvard		44	32	0.73
Stanford	25	12	0.48
Columbia	40	16	0.40
Hopkins		25	10	0.40
Penn		19	7	0.37
Yale		35	9	0.26
WashU		15	1	0.07

I'm not sure of what conclusions to draw from this limited data.
 
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chronicidal said:
The proportion interviewees from any given school varies widely by day. In my interview day (10 people?), I recall Harvard, 2x MIT, and Princeton.
[/CODE]I'm not sure of what conclusions to draw from this limited data.
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That is what I figured, although if I remember correctly the majority of the MSTP students (not interviewees) were not from non-Ivies. I could be wrong though and in any case its a minor point and even if it were true I'm not sure it has any significance I wouldn't be surprised if Ivy grads had a strong coast bias for one, preferring to stay on the east coast if they have the option (or fleeing to the warm weather of California).

Very thorough analysis of the match lists btw haha.
 
Previously, I considered the percentage matching to competitive residencies. Next up on the chronicidal data analysis series, I consider the reputation of internal medicine programs that students at different schools match to.

I choose internal medicine because it's not considered a 'competitive' specialty, but the objective of a large number of elite med school graduates is to get into the best medicine residencies. I exclude medicine-primary care matchers because primary care quality doesn't correlate well with academic strength. I exclude med-peds because strong children's hospitals are separate from strong normal hospitals. I exclude prelim matches, because they're preliminary.

To create a rough list of the best internal medicine programs, I take the intersection of the list of USNWR's medical schools internal medicine training reputation rankings and the list of USNWR's hospital honor roll. Combining two measures, I think, evens out the deficiencies of each alone. On one hand, a medical school strong in medicine training (Harvard) may have several affiliated hospitals, not all of which are equally highest quality (MGH and BWH vs BIDMC). On the other hand, an honor roll hospital may be strong in the specialties ranked (medical subspecialties and surgical subspecialties) but not in internal medicine per se. Or an honor roll hospital might be reputable for care but not have a good reputation for training and academics in a certain field.

There are many ways to disagree. If you do, please provide an alternative analysis.

Primary (1) list (top 10 internal medicine AND hospital honor roll):
Harvard/MGH, Harvard/BWH, Johns Hopkins Hospital, UCSF/UCSF Medical Center, Duke, Penn/HUP, Columbia/NYP, WashU/Barnes-Jewish, UWash, UMich

Secondary (2) list (ranked [top 30] internal medicine AND hospital honor roll):
Yale, Stanford, Cornell/NYP, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, Mt Sinai, Vandy, UPMC, UCLA/Ronald Reagan

The first two columns are proportion of those who matched in internal medicine who matched to a program in the primary or both lists. The next two columns are to control for inbreeding, where the home hospital is taken out of the numerator and denominator. The last column is the percentage of all matches being in internal medicine (but not prelim, peds, primary care). CAUTION: This is not the percentage of applicants who ranked IM and got matched IM. It's the number of people who matched IM divided by the number of categorical matches total.

Code: 
School - 	1 	 1+2	1-other	1+2-other %match in IM
WUMS 2011	.72	.84	.53	.73		.22
WUMS 2010	.48	.57	.21	.36		.18
HMS 2011	.74	.89	.54	.92		.21
HMS 2010	.77	.90	.50	.75		.21
JHU 2010	.83	.90	.76	.88		.24
Stanford 2011	.37	.74	.54	.62		.23
Stanford 2010	.50	.92	.86	.86		.13
Penn 2011	.72	.89	.64	.86		.17
Penn 2010	.69	.90	.44	.81		.21

Impressions: WUMS 2010 match in internal medicine was relatively weak. Hopkins 2010 was relatively strong in program reputation and numbers matched to IM. Stanford 2010 was strong in program reputation but low in numbers matched to IM. WUMS 2011 fell in between and was essentially comparable to HMS and Penn for both 2011 and 2010.
 
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Thanks chronicidal for all that information, that was very helpful. And also thanks to LSLGPK for sharing their experience.
LSLGPK said:
One interesting thing you may notice if you try to dig deeper when comparing schools is that Wash U is very closed about their match list. The match list is unavailable from outside computer networks and requires a student ID/password. Other schools will openly post their match lists.
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I was trying to look for the match lists for some of the other top schools listed by LSLGPK. I wasn't as thorough as chronicidal. His sources are other SDN forums, and I wasn't able to locate a lot of lists directly from institution websites.
LSLGPK said:
The inbreeding is a vicious cycle. The more you inbreed, the less attractive it is to outsiders to take a chance on ranking your program and the fewer representative residents we have in other programs. There are networks of schools and residents that facilitate exchange of medical students in the matching process. We are extremely geographically and politically isolated. So people continue to inbreed here because we are at a relative disadvantage. The grading system, ranking, and AOA schemes are internal barriers. In a winner take all system, there are a lot of people left out.
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I was suspecting other school's "inbreeding" numbers were going to be about the same as Wash U's, and chronicidal's excellently detailed data supports that. I put "inbreeding" in quotes, because the word sounds ominous, there being an implication that people staying at the same institution do so because of the lack of opportunity elsewhere. Regional preference has a variable part in people's choice of medical school, and it would be unsurprising if they wanted to stay in that region post med school. Different family situations can have a role too, more graduating medical students than say college students, may be married or be in serious relationships and have a strong interest to stay in that city. HMS "inbreeding" numbers are pretty high, because they have so many large affiliated hospitals (BID, MGH, BWH etc.). The number of people who stayed in Boston, once you include BU, Tufts hospitals, will be even higher. Probably same for any of the NY schools.
LSLGPK said:
The grading system is a very negative aspect here. It is difficult to get across to you how depressing and stressful it is. This is not limited to just me. Other people will not tell you this because it brings shame and embarrassment. Depression and stress can range from a constant level to a level that requires psychiatric evaluation and hospitalization.
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That said, you have to understand that I'm not trying to wave off LSLGPK's comments. Class rankings, AOA, letter grading (which H/HP/P/F does amount to) increases the stress by a lot more than maybe necessary. As in med school admissions, your stats and your institutional brand name does give you an edge in residency applications. Everyone at Wash U is incredibly talented and smart (as LSLGPK mentioned, 39 MCAT class average, for crying out loud), but two-thirds of this class will be in the middle/bottom third of their own class. The Wash U name, I am sure, matters to residency program directors. The class rank does not constrain the USMLE step 1 scores, which I was told during interview, are pretty high across the board, in keeping with those incredible MCAT numbers. The match list shows that everyone does pretty well. But if other top schools achieve the same success rate with the P/F for both years and no ranks/AOA, it makes you think, are those metrics really worth that extra stress for students?
LSLGPK said:
I have personally been told to maybe reconsider my dreams by school officials because my academic performance hasn't been great. A school that destroys your dreams is a fate that I would not consign anyone.
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Lastly, for LSLGPK, about the school officials redirecting your dreams... that is unfortunate. It is not unique to Wash U though. I obviously don't have numbers of how often this happens, but this happened to a friend of mine at another top school (grading system similar to Wash U's), who was interested in a ROADS residency (not just any odd one for lifestyle, he was really interested in a particular field) and he was *strongly advised* to reconsider. That forms an unfortunate scenario, where the lack of support felt very distressing. This individual did get into the field of his choice, it just made the process incredibly more stressful. LSLGPK, I hope the holidays are a good de-stressor, before stepping back into the pressure cooker.
 
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LSLGPK said:
Dear applicants,

As a medical student at WUSM and someone who knows ksmi117, I would like to give an appraisal of WUSM that includes both the positive and negative aspects of my experience here.

As ksmi117's efforts show, WUSM is extremely interested in recruiting applicants. We do in fact recruit some of the highest MCAT scores in the nation. Our year had an average MCAT score of 39. The research stature of WUSM as measured NIH funding is number four at 348,000,000$ (brimr.org). We have a U.S. news ranking tied at no. 4 with Duke.

WUSM however has a low yield and high acceptance rate, which are negative indicators of desirability (U.S. News report). The explanation given by school officials will usually be geographic. There are however some fundamental weaknesses that should be pointed out though.

The first year P/F and second, third, fourth year H/HP/P/F system should be clear to you if considering the school. We are ranked into top, middle, and bottom thirds. This is in stark contrast to the other top ten schools, which I will summarize the preclinical years for you: (Harvard, P/F both years); (Hopkins P/F); (UPenn Module1 P/F, Module2 H/P/F, Module3 P/F); (Duke: P/F), (UCSF: P/F), (Stanford: P/F), (Yale: no grades/rank), (University of Washington Year one: P/F, Year two: H/P/F), (Columbia: P/F, unranked).

The grading system is a very negative aspect here. It is difficult to get across to you how depressing and stressful it is. This is not limited to just me. Other people will not tell you this because it brings shame and embarrassment. Depression and stress can range from a constant level to a level that requires psychiatric evaluation and hospitalization. You have to remember that we have on average some of the most "book smart" kids according to MCAT scores. For me, second year has been a nightmare where I study until I literally feel I am sick and about to collapse, take the test, feel ok about it, then receive a pass or a fail. I feel a sense of learned helplessness&#8230; no matter how hard I try, I cannot do well&#8230; Obviously for a school that has H/HP/P/F and ranks and has AOA, that is not so good for going to the field or program I want to.

For those of you who are saying, "well&#8230; they might change the grading scheme&#8230;" Trust me, they won't. You'll be attendings by the time they do. For those of you who are saying, "well&#8230; it's probably just as rough anywhere else&#8230;" Trust me, it isn't. I have friends at virtually every top 15 school in the nation. Their experiences are completely different. It is a very competitive system that breeds fear and anguish.

Beyond the grading, medical school is supposed to open doors to residencies. One interesting thing you may notice if you try to dig deeper when comparing schools is that Wash U is very closed about their match list. The match list is unavailable from outside computer networks and requires a student ID/password. Other schools will openly post their match lists. There is a reason for this. If you do manage to gain access, you will notice two things A) inbreeding B) a scarcity of people going into certain competitive fields. I can point out with certainty that we have relatively fewer people going to plastic surgery, neurosurgery, ophthalmology, or dermatology than Harvard, Yale, Hopkins, and Columbia.

Why is this the case? It is not because of a lack of interest. The inbreeding is a vicious cycle. The more you inbreed, the less attractive it is to outsiders to take a chance on ranking your program and the fewer representative residents we have in other programs. There are networks of schools and residents that facilitate exchange of medical students in the matching process. We are extremely geographically and politically isolated. So people continue to inbreed here because we are at a relative disadvantage. The grading system, ranking, and AOA schemes are internal barriers. In a winner take all system, there are a lot of people left out. I have personally been told to maybe reconsider my dreams by school officials because my academic performance hasn't been great. A school that destroys your dreams is a fate that I would not consign anyone.

I left the central west end metrolink platform for the airport two weeks ago. While waiting on the platform, I met an applicant who had just interviewed. She was an interesting and kind person. Naturally, she began to ask me about the school. Naturally, I began to act positive and answer her questions. But towards the end of that conversation, I suddenly realized that she didn't believe me and I didn't believe myself. It is the strangest feeling to realize that you have been so traumatized, that you can't even lie for a 20 minute train ride and put on a smile. My face had been frozen in an emotionless state. My eyes had drifted off into the distance the entire time taking in blurs of a decaying industrial city scarred with torn down buildings and grass filled lots. The words I spoke had the facade of melody but was not music.

Perhaps I face retribution from certain people for bearing witness. They are not terrible people. Our emotions that are deemed good or evil are not divided but often meld and transform into each other. If we did not care, vengeance would not exist. If I did not feel pain and helplessness, I would not feel the intense desire to protect and love.

In a barren wasteland of ambitions, greed, and power, there are a few of us who do care deeply about you. Perhaps you will meet one of us at the cafe over a cup of coffee, or when you need a kind word in the study carrels, perhaps in the wards of the hospital after being degraded. There is no guarantee that you will meet a person who cares. But if you do meet someone, it will make all the difference.
Click to expand...

As a third-year medical student at WUSM, I am concerned by some of the comments made by LSLGPK in the earlier post. I'll attempt to address some of them and provide an honest, positive, alternative view of WUSM.

First and foremost, it is my opinion that WUSM would be better off if both 1st and 2nd year were graded on the H/HP/P/F scale instead of P/F 1st year and H/HP/P/F ("graded") 2nd year. I promise you that this view is shared by a significant percentage of my class (this topic has come up during curriculum update meetings that I have been a part of).

1st year at WUSM is relatively straight-forward as far as medical school goes. It is designed to get everyone up to speed on all of the basics of cell and human physiology, histology, and anatomy (among other subjects). It does make sense to have 1st year Pass/Fail due to the diversity of backgrounds in each incoming class, but in retrospect, most students admit they would have worked harder and would have learned more if they had had "grades" as motivation.

That said, "grades" during 2nd year (which is admittedly much harder than 1st year) are set up to reward excellence, not to promote competition. No 2nd year course at WUSM is curved, period. The H/HP/P/F cutoffs are determined on Day 1 of each course, and if everyone only gets a Pass, so be it&#8230;if everyone gets Honors, then GREAT!

Probably the most brutal (yet amazing, as the teaching is phenomenal) course of 2nd year is Infectious Diseases. In my year (Class of 2013), the grading breakdown was as follows:

Honors = 72/124 students (58.1%)
High Pass = 41/124 students (33.1%)
Pass (cutoff of 65%) = 11/124 students (8.8%)

I won't deny that certain students may be upset if they scored only a Pass on an exam where most people received Honors. But the truth is that other than the grades of my 3 closest friends, I didn't know the grades of any other classmates - it simply isn't discussed. If anything, the grading system allows you to seek out a classmate who did very well in a certain subject and ask them for suggestions as to how to make sure you know everything that you should in that area. Despite the fact that lecturers will say "we don't specifically teach to the boards", everything taught at WUSM during 2nd year is "boards-relevant", so you'll still be responsible for all the covered material after the exam is over.

Thanks to Chronicidal for posting the statistics regarding residencies and match lists. If you ask any WUSM student applying to residency, grades are never the issue in being able to match where you want to. Just as is the case at EVERY medical school in the country, the most restricting aspects of one's residency application are Step 1 and Step 2 boards scores. If you did well enough on the boards to be competitive in your chosen field, then your grades and class rank at WUSM (or any other school) will be fine for that area.

I'm sorry to hear that LSLGPK has been told to 'reconsider' his/her dreams. As previously explained, the truest and most unbiased test as to whether you should reconsider your dreams will be Step 1 and Step 2 board exam performance. You can only take these tests once if you pass (so there is no parallel to going 29, 33, 37 on three attempts at the MCAT), and everyone in the country takes a comparable exam. You are given up to 5 weeks of dedicated study time at WUSM to prepare for Step 1, and combined with the high relevance of the material in 2nd year to the exam, that is more than enough time to score >90th percentile, which is a good goal for being competitive at the top-tier residencies in the ROADS areas. Being told as a 2nd year (before having taken Step 1) to reconsider your goals is something I've never even heard of. Nobody wants to shatter your dreams, but if you aren't performing at a level that will allow you to achieve what you're aiming for, I'd say it's better to get that reality check earlier than later. If nothing else, such news would only stress how important it is to do well on the boards and to get good marks as a 3rd year medical student.

I won't expand too much on the "inbreeding" issues because the statistics have been posted above. That said, people who match to WUSM (Barnes-Jewish, really) for residency will tell you that they wanted to stay at a top-tier hospital that they are familiar with, treats them well, and allows a great standard of living. It is not that they couldn't have gotten into MGH or UCSF had they wanted to.

I'd like to add a few more things. When I get asked by current applicants what I like about WUSM, one of the things I always tell them is that it is a place where you compete against your own standards, not the standard of the kid sitting next to you in class. Grades aren't really discussed and board scores are definitely not conversation topics. The faculty here set high standards and expect students to meet them. If you survived college and the MCAT and got into WUSM, then surviving medical school shouldn't be beyond you. Will it be hard work? Yes. I certainly spent more hours studying during 2nd year of medical school than any other period of my life. Did I regret any minute of it? No.

And frankly, regarding the attitudes of the faculty at WUSM, mentorship and support here is beyond what I expected. The term "teaching hospital" truly applies to WUSM - whatever you want to accomplish you can. Neither the faculty nor your classmates are out to get you at WUSM. It doesn't do anybody any good to see a WUSM student not happy and not succeeding.

Lastly, I want to express my disappointment with how LSLGPK portrays his/her feelings as if they were common sentiments and realities at WUSM. It is dishonest to imply that degradation, stress, and shame are so rampant that students are being hospitalized left and right - that is simply not true. I won't try to claim that there is never a student who needs to take time off from school due to stress - it probably happens every year or two (just as it does elsewhere). I'm not going to dig up the publications now, but there are tons of Medscape citations with the data on this issue.

I hope this clarifies the reality of WUSM. It is a great place to be a student, resident, and physician, and I'd be happy to provide more details regarding my experiences. I have nothing to hide, so feel free to message me anything you might still be wondering and I'll do my best to answer.
 
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In the last installment of the chronicidal data analysis series, I examine the strength of the surgery and surgical specialties matches in the last two years at WUSM (WUMS?) and five peer schools. I added in Columbia because they're the College of Surgeons and Surgeons.

I consider the following specialties "surgical": general surgery, neurological surgery, orthopedic surgery, otolaryngology / ENT / head and neck surgery, plastic and reconstructive surgery, urological surgery. For each of these categories except plastics, I try to get some measure of program/department reputation (no rankings exist for plastics; it's such a small and competitive field that I include all matches). For neuro, ortho, ENT, and urology, this came in the form of specialist reputation ratings as reported in USNWR, divided in categories of "very strong" (>50% specialists naming a program as one of the best 5/10), "strong" (>15%), "significant" (>3%), "modest", or none. For general surgery, I approximated by using the cardiology/cardiac surgery rankings as a proxy. This is not entirely unreasonable given that cardiac/thoracic surgery is a subspecialty of general surgery and typically a division within the department of surgery.

I used data from the same matches (Hopkins 2011 is unavailable, making comparisons difficult) as before.

First, I look at the percentage of all categorical matches being in a surgical specialty.
Code: 
School		% surgery of all categorical matches 
WUMS 2011	18
WUMS 2010	18
HMS 2011	19
HMS 2010	17
Hopkins 2010	17
Stanford 2011	18
Stanford 2010	21
Penn 2011	13
Penn 2010	13
Columbia 2011	21
Columbia 2010	26

Impression: Columbia, true to its reputation, had the greatest proportion of students matching into surgical specialties. WUSM is near the high end while Penn is on the low end.

Second, I looked at the number of surgical matches to hospitals that have "significant", "strong", or "very strong" reputations with specialists. I normalize to class size. The following data are expressed as matches per 200 overall categorical matches. Plastics are unfiltered for quality.

Code: 
School		General	Neuro	Ortho	ENT	Plast	Urology	Total
WUMS		5.2	0.9	6.1	3.5	3.5	1.7	20.9
HMS		8.4	7.1	6.5	2.6	4.5	1.9	31
JHU		6.7	5	3.4	5	0	5	25.1
Stanford	8.1	5.8	11.6	4.6	4.6	1.2	35.9
Penn		6.6	2.9	5.1	2.2	0.7	1.5	19
Columbia	6.6	3.3	13.2	3.9	2	4.6	33.6

These data are depicted in graphical form here, with WUSM in red. Again, these are not all matches, but matches to high reputation programs.
e7kkyx.png


Impressions: In general surgery matches, WUSM is weakest compared to its peers, with HMS and Stanford dominating the group. In neurosurgery, WUSM is weakest compared to its peers, with HMS dominating the group, followed by Stanford. In orthopedics, WUSM beats Hopkins and holds its own against HMS and Penn but the clear winners are Columbia and Stanford. In ENT, everyone is pretty close, WUSM falls in the middle, and Hopkins and Stanford have small leads. In urology, everyone is about equal except for the leaders Columbia and Hopkins. In plastics, WUSM falls in the upper half of its peers (in fact, one SEM above the mean), with HMS and Stanford taking a very slight edge.

Overall, WUSM leans towards the weaker side in surgery. Stanford>Columbia>HMS>Hopkins>WUSM>Penn
 
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LSLGPK said:
Dear applicants,

As a medical student at WUSM and someone who knows ksmi117, I would like to give an appraisal of WUSM that includes both the positive and negative aspects of my experience here.

As ksmi117's efforts show, WUSM is extremely interested in recruiting applicants. We do in fact recruit some of the highest MCAT scores in the nation. Our year had an average MCAT score of 39. The research stature of WUSM as measured NIH funding is number four at 348,000,000$ (brimr.org). We have a U.S. news ranking tied at no. 4 with Duke.

WUSM however has a low yield and high acceptance rate, which are negative indicators of desirability (U.S. News report). The explanation given by school officials will usually be geographic. There are however some fundamental weaknesses that should be pointed out though.

The first year P/F and second, third, fourth year H/HP/P/F system should be clear to you if considering the school. We are ranked into top, middle, and bottom thirds. This is in stark contrast to the other top ten schools, which I will summarize the preclinical years for you: (Harvard, P/F both years); (Hopkins P/F); (UPenn Module1 P/F, Module2 H/P/F, Module3 P/F); (Duke: P/F), (UCSF: P/F), (Stanford: P/F), (Yale: no grades/rank), (University of Washington Year one: P/F, Year two: H/P/F), (Columbia: P/F, unranked).

The grading system is a very negative aspect here. It is difficult to get across to you how depressing and stressful it is. This is not limited to just me. Other people will not tell you this because it brings shame and embarrassment. Depression and stress can range from a constant level to a level that requires psychiatric evaluation and hospitalization. You have to remember that we have on average some of the most "book smart" kids according to MCAT scores. For me, second year has been a nightmare where I study until I literally feel I am sick and about to collapse, take the test, feel ok about it, then receive a pass or a fail. I feel a sense of learned helplessness&#8230; no matter how hard I try, I cannot do well&#8230; Obviously for a school that has H/HP/P/F and ranks and has AOA, that is not so good for going to the field or program I want to.

For those of you who are saying, "well&#8230; they might change the grading scheme&#8230;" Trust me, they won't. You'll be attendings by the time they do. For those of you who are saying, "well&#8230; it's probably just as rough anywhere else&#8230;" Trust me, it isn't. I have friends at virtually every top 15 school in the nation. Their experiences are completely different. It is a very competitive system that breeds fear and anguish.

Beyond the grading, medical school is supposed to open doors to residencies. One interesting thing you may notice if you try to dig deeper when comparing schools is that Wash U is very closed about their match list. The match list is unavailable from outside computer networks and requires a student ID/password. Other schools will openly post their match lists. There is a reason for this. If you do manage to gain access, you will notice two things A) inbreeding B) a scarcity of people going into certain competitive fields. I can point out with certainty that we have relatively fewer people going to plastic surgery, neurosurgery, ophthalmology, or dermatology than Harvard, Yale, Hopkins, and Columbia.

Why is this the case? It is not because of a lack of interest. The inbreeding is a vicious cycle. The more you inbreed, the less attractive it is to outsiders to take a chance on ranking your program and the fewer representative residents we have in other programs. There are networks of schools and residents that facilitate exchange of medical students in the matching process. We are extremely geographically and politically isolated. So people continue to inbreed here because we are at a relative disadvantage. The grading system, ranking, and AOA schemes are internal barriers. In a winner take all system, there are a lot of people left out. I have personally been told to maybe reconsider my dreams by school officials because my academic performance hasn't been great. A school that destroys your dreams is a fate that I would not consign anyone.

I left the central west end metrolink platform for the airport two weeks ago. While waiting on the platform, I met an applicant who had just interviewed. She was an interesting and kind person. Naturally, she began to ask me about the school. Naturally, I began to act positive and answer her questions. But towards the end of that conversation, I suddenly realized that she didn't believe me and I didn't believe myself. It is the strangest feeling to realize that you have been so traumatized, that you can't even lie for a 20 minute train ride and put on a smile. My face had been frozen in an emotionless state. My eyes had drifted off into the distance the entire time taking in blurs of a decaying industrial city scarred with torn down buildings and grass filled lots. The words I spoke had the facade of melody but was not music.

Perhaps I face retribution from certain people for bearing witness. They are not terrible people. Our emotions that are deemed good or evil are not divided but often meld and transform into each other. If we did not care, vengeance would not exist. If I did not feel pain and helplessness, I would not feel the intense desire to protect and love.

In a barren wasteland of ambitions, greed, and power, there are a few of us who do care deeply about you. Perhaps you will meet one of us at the cafe over a cup of coffee, or when you need a kind word in the study carrels, perhaps in the wards of the hospital after being degraded. There is no guarantee that you will meet a person who cares. But if you do meet someone, it will make all the difference.
Click to expand...
I hope everything works out for you--you seem pretty unhappy. I may or may not have been that person on the tram? anyway, good luck this semester.

For the people who do decide to stay in St. Louis for residency, is it largely because they liked the WashU system so much? Is it frowned upon to stay in the same place for med school/residency? I hear that about undergrad/med school, but that might be BS..i feel like there is so much of that that goes around :)
 
I hate to derail the interesting discussion going on here, but I had a question or two about the interview visit. My flight gets into St. Louis at about noon the day before, and I was wondering if anyone had experience getting to the school that early in the day. Are they alright with people showing up that early, or do they usually want people showing up later (after the last batch of interviewees have left)? At the very least id like to drop off my luggage.

Also, since I have around 8 hours... what are the must see or do things in St. Louis? :D
 
Dr Horrible said:
Also, since I have around 8 hours... what are the must see or do things in St. Louis? :D
Click to expand...
When I was there, Forest Park was great. I walked from one end to the other. Of course, it's January now, so that probably means bad things in terms of weather...
 
Dr Horrible said:
I hate to derail the interesting discussion going on here, but I had a question or two about the interview visit. My flight gets into St. Louis at about noon the day before, and I was wondering if anyone had experience getting to the school that early in the day. Are they alright with people showing up that early, or do they usually want people showing up later (after the last batch of interviewees have left)? At the very least id like to drop off my luggage.

Also, since I have around 8 hours... what are the must see or do things in St. Louis? :D
Click to expand...

You can drop your luggage in a closet in Olin Hall.

You can go see the Arch.
 
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If grades cause so much stress and possibly depression without any real benefit, why are there still pre-clinical grades?

The administration seems quite supportive of the students, both from what you all are saying and from what I heard while I was interviewing. Can one of you please show this huge discussion to someone? Get them to give out a survey or something? Or is it not that simple?
 
Ok, so here are my two cents...

1. Grading system - I personally LOVE it the way it is and don't want it to change. P/F first year is awesome because it gives you lots of free time to make awesome relationships with your new classmates, make a place for yourself in St. Louis, pursue outside interests, etc. Granted, I really didn't learn nearly as much as I could have because I took the "all I need to do is pass" approach. But it's that time I got to actually get to know my classmates and find out what other student orgs, etc. I love that keep me happy now.

Second year grades, while not super fun, are really important to keep me motivated. The material we're learning is crucial for the rest of our career and I like having that extra push there. Plus, it's all on boards at the end of the year and I'd rather learn more now than put it off and be screwed at the end of the year. If I had the same mentality as I did last year, I know I wouldn't do as well as I am in classes and I'd be totally screwed once boards came along.

2. Competition - Sure, everyone wants to do well, but c'mon, who is being competitive???? I'm in your class and I haven't seen anyone try to sabotage anyone else EVER. I can only speak from my experiences, but all of my friends are super happy for me if I do well and vice versa. My friends that aren't doing so hot, I offer to help. That's what friends do. And not sharing notes with the entire class != being competitive. That's a preposterous claim.

In college, people never shared notes at all, but here there are countless forms of notes from older students, current classmates, and even the professors.

No, I'm not going to send every single note I take out to the entire class for one main reason - I'm not confident enough in my own understanding of the material to send it out as "law" to the class. What if something in my notes is wrong and people study from it?? But for EVERY single class we've had thus far, people have sent out some form of notes to the entire class. Doesn't seem very competitive to me.

As far as the note-taking service this block, I think it's awesome. And I don't think it's fair to let everyone have access to it all year, because it's a lot of work to get it all up and running. And if you aren't contributing then you shouldn't be able to take advantage of the other people who are. That being said, you are aware that everyone in the class will get access to all the notes we take a week or so before the exams, right? Again, doesn't seem very competitive to me.

3. Stress - I'd be lying if I said med school doesn't stress me out from time to time. It's a lot of information to learn in a short amount of time. But you'd be hard pressed to find anyone at any school who isn't stressed out by med school. The vast majority of the time, it's totally cool and stress-free for me, but when exams roll around, I get a little stressed. But it's not WashU's fault. If anything being here has kept me more sane because it's such a cohesive and happy environment - or at least the people I surround myself with are. There is nothing about WashU that makes it any more stressful than other schools - it's just a product of med school in general. As I've told many applicants, med school sucks, but if you're gonna do it, WashU is an awesome, happy place to study medicine. I really can't imagine it being a lot better.

As LSLGPK mentioned, there are students who get more stressed than others. I'm not denying it. I've known classmates who've gone to student health regarding the stress of school, but I just want to make it clear that in my opinion, WashU's methodology, grading system, etc. are not stressful to everyone. If you foresee it being stressful for you, by all means, go somewhere else with a different curriculum. People learn best in different ways - and WashU's style is perfect for some of us.

4. Match lists - I can't really speak on. I personally think the match lists for WashU are awesome, but I want to do internal med or peds so I'm not too concerned about the matches in the highly competitive specialties.

5. Mentoring - I've personally never talked to any administrators about my long-term goals, so I've never had anyone tell me to reconsider anything. I do think it's sad that someone told you to reconsider your life plans with so much left in our medical education, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it was not delivered as harshly as you make it out to be. There's plenty of people in our class that have struggled with a class or two since starting school, and that's totally normal. I just can't see any of our administrators flat out telling someone that they won't be able to enter whatever specialty before taking boards or even finishing the first semester of 2nd year. If that is the case, I'm sorry. That really sucks. Maybe you should talk to someone else to like outline how exactly you could reach your goals.

6. Class cohesion - A class can only be as cohesive as people let it be. Yes, there are people who only attend the required school things, but that doesn't mean that the class isn't cohesive. A lot of social events are announced via the class-wide email system, and a good bit of the class goes to said parties. Obviously there are people who don't attend, but that's their prerogative. If they choose not to go to class or partake in class social events, then honestly, they can't really complain about not getting support from other classmates. They kind of need to be present to build those supportive relationships.

7. Recruiting - LSLGPK, I resent the fact that you implied that I'm lying on SDN, when talking to applicants at pizza parties, whatever to recruit students. I honestly LOVE WashU and I share my experiences with applicants so that they can see why. If those are the kinds of things they are looking for in a school, awesome! If not, then maybe another school is a better place. As I've told practically every applicant I've talked to... med school isn't just a means to an end. You should still be happy during your time, so go to the school that you think will make you happiest.

And now, I shall step off my soapbox. I hope I've made it clear that LSLGPK's concerns are all valid to some degree but that they are by no means the concerns of the students here as a whole. Everyone I surround myself with loves it here, and I personally couldn't even imagine being in school somewhere else.
 
TheGreyWarden said:
If grades cause so much stress and possibly depression without any real benefit, why are there still pre-clinical grades?

The administration seems quite supportive of the students, both from what you all are saying and from what I heard while I was interviewing. Can one of you please show this huge discussion to someone? Get them to give out a survey or something? Or is it not that simple?
Click to expand...

It's nowhere near that simple. As condor and I can attest to, there are people who actually like it. Last year, I would have been on the P/F side of this argument, but I've since changed my opinion. And trust me, it's really not as stressful as LSLGPK is making it seem. No, it's not fun (but it's school, who really like tests anyway?), but it's good for us in my opinion.
 
Interesting opinions and personal experiences being shared in this thread. I personally got nothing but good vibes at Wash U, and I'm still anxiously waiting to hear back.
 
LSLGPK said:
I have meditated about your thoughts. It's definitely good to hear your perspective. With regards to your opinion on the grading system, I had no idea they were considering the opposite trend P/F --> H/HP/P/F for first year. It is interesting because they always say they'll consider the opposite move for second year. It seems doubtful to me that a move like that would help considering the trend of P/F of other medical schools overall. There is a report on pubmed about the Mayo transition to pass fail grading, which decreased stress, improved mood, and increased class cohesion (compared the two transition classes). There is also a later report by Mayo on metrics of stress, depersonalization, emotional exhaustion, and burnout being higher under non pass fail grading.
Click to expand...

Here is the that article on P/F grading. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21952063 (multi-institutional: Mayo Medical School; Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences F. Edward Hébert School of Medicine; University of Alabama School of Medicine; University of California, San Diego, School of Medicine; University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine; University of Minnesota Medical School–Duluth; University of Minnesota Medical School–Minneapolis; University of Washington School of Medicine–Seattle; University of Washington School of Medicine–Alaska; University of Washington School of Medicine–Idaho; University of Washington School of Medicine–Montana; and University of Washington School of Medicine–Wyoming.)
and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17120399 (Mayo only)
 
does anyone happen to know when the next batch of decisions will be released?
 
I think that it's this Friday at 12:00am (Saint Louis time). Correct me if I am wrong guys!

MD2016 Accepted!!! :D
 
medhopefuls2016 said:
I think that it's this Friday at 12:00am (Saint Louis time). Correct me if I am wrong guys!

MD2016 Accepted!!! :D
Click to expand...

What is the latest interview date that you think would be covered by this?
How has it generally been in the past?
 
Does anyone know the length of time it takes for the committee to make a decision? My file was marked as complete on Nov 30th, and I still haven't heard anything back. I'm getting really nervous! :(

Thanks
 
assis1 said:
Does anyone know the length of time it takes for the committee to make a decision? My file was marked as complete on Nov 30th, and I still haven't heard anything back. I'm getting really nervous! :(

Thanks
Click to expand...

at least a few weeks.
 
Ok so I interviewed Nov 30th (I submitted my secondary mid September (haha totally my fault); it was marked complete early October. Interview Invite Nov 4th). Since I know someone who was accepted from the last batch (December 16th) who interviewed on the 14th of Nov, I would say that this batch would go from mid of November to early December.
 
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