Official 2012-2013 IM Residency WAMC (What Are My Chances) Thread

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Hello,

MS3 from a not TOP 50 but with some name recognition school in DC.

I have average stats: 223 step 1
All passes in preclinical,
MS3:
HP in ob/gyn
HP (probably) Peds
Hoping to honor IM next.
EC: Volunteer, medical trips, leadership stuff
Research: dabbled, no pubs

I would like to go to a mediocre competitive program in NE: Brown, Dartmouth seem like dream schools to me. I was wondering if anyone can way in on what are my chances there (lets say with a H in internal medicine and average step 2)? More importantly, can someone please list some programs that are at same caliber as the two I mentioned?

Much appreciated!
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gutonc said:
Now that it's interview season (rather than application season), I'm going to retire the WAMC thread from this year. It will remain open but will no longer be stickied.
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Just wanted to point out that your advice in this thread was not reflective of reality and at times dangerously incorrect and misleading. You wildly underestimate the competitiveness and selection criteria of top NE programs.
 
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skinMD said:
Just wanted to point out that your advice in this thread was not reflective of reality and at times dangerously incorrect and misleading. You wildly underestimate the competitiveness and selection criteria of top NE programs.
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Thanks. I needed a good laugh today.
 
gutonc said:
Thanks. I needed a good laugh today.
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you are seriously doing a disservice to 4th years who frequent this forum by giving advice that is way off base while pretending that this advice is backed up by some sort of experience. i don't know whether things have changed since you applied but your advice is wrong. Your arrogance only makes it more dangerous. Trust me we will be discussing this in depth when the dust settles for the sake of future 4th years . Suffice it to say now that your advice is wrong and there is a lot of evidence to back up that statement.
 
skinMD said:
you are seriously doing a disservice to 4th years who frequent this forum by giving advice that is way off base while pretending that this advice is backed up by some sort of experience. i don't know whether things have changed since you applied but your advice is wrong. Your arrogance only makes it more dangerous. Trust me we will be discussing this in depth when the dust settles for the sake of future 4th years . Suffice it to say now that your advice is wrong and there is a lot of evidence to back up that statement.
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I'd like to see this evidence. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but you haven't really demonstrated that the advice was wrong.
 
skinMD said:
you are seriously doing a disservice to 4th years who frequent this forum by giving advice that is way off base while pretending that this advice is backed up by some sort of experience. i don't know whether things have changed since you applied but your advice is wrong. Your arrogance only makes it more dangerous. Trust me we will be discussing this in depth when the dust settles for the sake of future 4th years . Suffice it to say now that your advice is wrong and there is a lot of evidence to back up that statement.
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You're welcome to disagree with me. And even point out where I'm wrong. I'm cool with that.

But don't just say "you're wrong...shut up" and call it a day. That s*** is weak.

I'm more than happy to admit mistakes. And I have no doubt that things are different than they were 7 years ago. But a blanket condemnation of my advice is complete bull****.

And out of curiosity, would you prefer complete radio silence (which is what you'd be likely to get if I, jdh71 and instatewaiter...all of whom are 3+ years from the process...didn't post)?
 
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Oooooh I wonder if we could get everyone that posted and got advice in WAMC to follow-up. Or maybe we can cross reference the WAMC thread with the interview invite thread! That could be helpful (not it - until after boards :))
 
LovelyBRass said:
Oooooh I wonder if we could get everyone that posted and got advice in WAMC to follow-up. Or maybe we can cross reference the WAMC thread with the interview invite thread! That could be helpful (not it - until after boards :))
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this needs to be done so that we can create a FAQ thread for all future applicants. this will help all those 250+ OMGAMIGOINGTOMATCH questions.
 
gutonc said:
You're welcome to disagree with me. And even point out where I'm wrong. I'm cool with that.

But don't just say "you're wrong...shut up" and call it a day. That s*** is weak.

I'm more than happy to admit mistakes. And I have no doubt that things are different than they were 7 years ago. But a blanket condemnation of my advice is complete bull****.

And out of curiosity, would you prefer complete radio silence (which is what you'd be likely to get if I, jdh71 and instatewaiter...all of whom are 3+ years from the process...didn't post)?
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sometimes no advice is better than bad advice

i'm not going to go into any details or discuss this until after match. just wanted to make sure i got this message out there so if someone next year is surfing through this thread like I did with last year's thread they will know that this "advice" is questionable and can either look for the ensuing discussion or can follow-up with me directly.
 
skinMD said:
sometimes no advice is better than bad advice

i'm not going to go into any details or discuss this until after match. just wanted to make sure i got this message out there so if someone next year is surfing through this thread like I did with last year's thread they will know that this "advice" is questionable and can either look for the ensuing discussion or can follow-up with me directly.
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Dude...that's just sad. My "advice" is "questionable" but you're not going to say why...what are you hiding? My advice is out there and I stand by it (but am willing to admit that I'm wrong if somebody is willing to confront me directly).

You have exactly 0 posts in this thread that aren't directly attacking me. Nut up or go away.
 
While I haven't formally posted a WAMC thread, I've been greatly helped by gutonc's advice in general, which appears realistic and informed.
 
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gutonc said:
Dude...that's just sad. My "advice" is "questionable" but you're not going to say why...what are you hiding? My advice is out there and I stand by it (but am willing to admit that I'm wrong if somebody is willing to confront me directly).

You have exactly 0 posts in this thread that aren't directly attacking me. Nut up or go away.
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we'll get into details after match but bottom line is that class rank and AOA seem to be most important while your advice almost exclusively revolves around step 1 scores. also the advice of putting off step 2 has become outdated. finally med school reputation plays a big role and it didn't sound like you took that into account sufficiently when giving advice.
 
I've always found Gutonc's advice to generally be pretty okay though I would agree that AOA/Med school/Class rank seem to be some of the most important factors screening-wise for some of the bigger programs this year. I'm guessing that it's been a frustrating season for you but I don't think it really very productive to be calling out specific individuals for advice that you don't feel was completely congruent with your own personal experience. Also, while these WAMC-type threads on SDN may serve as rough guides, I've always felt that students should seek the advice of advisors at their own schools who should (theoretically) have a better understanding of their own institution's experiences when sending their students out into the wild.
 
skinMD said:
we'll get into details after match but bottom line is that class rank and AOA seem to be most important while your advice almost exclusively revolves around step 1 scores. also the advice of putting off step 2 has become outdated. finally med school reputation plays a big role and it didn't sound like you took that into account sufficiently when giving advice.
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Yeah you definitely can't get away with hiding your Step 2 score anymore. Learning that the hard way... And AOA/class rank is HUGE... also learning that the hard way lol Medicine is definitely not a "buyer's market" for the big university programs, which is where I'm guessing we'd all like to ideally end up.
 
skinMD said:
we'll get into details after match but bottom line is that class rank and AOA seem to be most important while your advice almost exclusively revolves around step 1 scores. also the advice of putting off step 2 has become outdated. finally med school reputation plays a big role and it didn't sound like you took that into account sufficiently when giving advice.
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Your inability to understand my advice doesn't make it bad.

AOA is huge, I've said that multiple times. I have no doubt that it factored massively into my good interviews. But if you have a Step 1 of 200, AOA won't matter.

Step 2 is becoming more important...I actually very rarely comment on that. If you have a 250 on Step 1, nobody will care about your Step 2, at least for the interview. But you're right that it's a bigger deal than it was 5 or 6 years ago.

And I have no idea where you got the idea that I don't think med school matters. I'm on record here saying the complete opposite of that. Look...it's right over here. I went to a crappy med school. I think I missed out on a bunch of interviews that I probably would have otherwise gotten with my stats if I'd come from a better school. But a stellar app (good Steps, AOA, significant research, solid LORs, etc) can easily overcome it. There's no other reason I would have gotten interviews the places I did.

I appreciate you pointing out what you think I got wrong. But the fact that you don't comprehend the advice doesn't make it wrong.
 
HoldTheCoffee said:
I've always found Gutonc's advice to generally be pretty okay though I would agree that AOA/Med school/Class rank seem to be some of the most important factors screening-wise for some of the bigger programs this year. I'm guessing that it's been a frustrating season for you but I don't think it really very productive to be calling out specific individuals for advice that you don't feel was completely congruent with your own personal experience. Also, while these WAMC-type threads on SDN may serve as rough guides, I've always felt that students should seek the advice of advisors at their own schools who should (theoretically) have a better understanding of their own institution's experiences when sending their students out into the wild.
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it's not just my personal experience

also while the advice of advisors might not have been particularly accurate either none of them were as abrasive or as arrogant about it to go as far as ridiculing people for applying to solid mid-tier university programs
 
gutonc said:
Your inability to understand my advice doesn't make it bad.

AOA is huge, I've said that multiple times. I have no doubt that it factored massively into my good interviews. But if you have a Step 1 of 200, AOA won't matter.

Step 2 is becoming more important...I actually very rarely comment on that. If you have a 250 on Step 1, nobody will care about your Step 2, at least for the interview. But you're right that it's a bigger deal than it was 5 or 6 years ago.

And I have no idea where you got the idea that I don't think med school matters. I'm on record here saying the complete opposite of that. Look...it's right over here. I went to a crappy med school. I think I missed out on a bunch of interviews that I probably would have otherwise gotten with my stats if I'd come from a better school. But a stellar app (good Steps, AOA, significant research, solid LORs, etc) can easily overcome it. There's no other reason I would have gotten interviews the places I did.

I appreciate you pointing out what you think I got wrong. But the fact that you don't comprehend the advice doesn't make it wrong.
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just so we're clear given that you're now conceding all these points i want to make sure you still stand by this advice from earlier in the thread...particularly the tone:

whoknows2012 said:
School: Mid-tier NY school
Step 1:242
Step 2:257
Pre-clinical:Couple H/HP. Mostly Pass though.
Clinical: H in Medicine (and Medicine Sub-I), Psych. HP in everything else except P in Fam Med.
Class rank: Broken down into quintiles, I am in the 4th quintile, or 60-80th percentile. Not AOA
Research: 3 projects, no articles published yet, although expect at least 1, maybe 2 will be published. All research in Hem/Onc.

NY/NJ:
Cornell
Mt. Sinai
NYU
Columbia
SLR
Lenox hill
Einstein
BI
NSLIJ
WMC
Maimonedes
UMDNJ

New England:
MGH
BI deaconess
BU
Tufts
Brown
Yale

Pa:
Jefferson
Penn

DC:
GW
Georgetown

MD:
UMD
Hopkins

Preference is to stay in NY/NJ/CT but will go to the best program I get into most likely. Feeling like I may have too many reaches on my list. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!
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gutonc said:
I see a grand total of 4 reaches on your list (I don't have to list them...you should be smart enough to figure them out). You'll get most/all of the interviews you want and will likely match in your Top 3.

SLR
Lenox hill

New England:
BU
Tufts
Brown

Pa:
Jefferson

DC:
GW
Georgetown
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And applying to these programs is a waste of your dad's money:
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I fail to see the problem with what he said. He was stating his opinion and thoughts, which is what people are asking for. He doesn't need to preface that post with, "Well, I think that..." We know that he thinks that...He's saying it. He's not citing references from 2000 in his post. He's stating his honest opinion and what he's seen anecdotally.
 
skinMD said:
just so we're clear given that you're now conceding all these points i want to make sure you still stand by this advice from earlier in the thread...particularly the tone:
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I absolutely stand by the post.... My advice for that particular applicant was solid. If it didn't work for you, I'm sorry about that, but I wasn't giving you the advice.

And the tone too. That's just how I am. Should I dial the snark back sometimes? Probably. But that's a pretty low snark post all things considered.
 
I've never seen someone so angry about advice they got from an anonymous person on an online forum. At the end of the day each person has to make their own decision about where to apply, and no one knows 100% what each individual program is looking for/thinking. SDN is not where you go for facts lol.
 
umean2tellme said:
I've never seen someone so angry about advice they got from an anonymous person on an online forum. At the end of the day each person has to make their own decision about where to apply, and no one knows 100% what each individual program is looking for/thinking. SDN is not where you go for facts lol.
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Amen brother

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
 
gutonc said:
I absolutely stand by the post.... My advice for that particular applicant was solid. If it didn't work for you, I'm sorry about that, but I wasn't giving you the advice.
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so how can you agree that class rank and AOA are crucial then completely ignore it when giving advice as you did in the above example? Also I'm assuming the four reaches you're referring to on that list are mgh, BID, columbia and hopkins. what about yale and penn? or cornell, sinai, and nyu?

also why the vitriol against some solid mid- or upper mid-tier programs while staying silent about some of the lower-tier programs on the list? it sounds particularly misplaced and unfounded.

Bottom line your advice didn't work for this poster or for me (with a similar but arguably more competitive record). I asked... just to make sure that it wasn't just me.

umean2tellme said:
I've never seen someone so angry about advice they got from an anonymous person on an online forum. At the end of the day each person has to make their own decision about where to apply, and no one knows 100% what each individual program is looking for/thinking. SDN is not where you go for facts lol.
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as gutonc pointed out i never asked for any advice. i was however browsing this thread and last year's thread looking for trends in the advice that could inform my decisions. luckily i erred on the side of caution, ignored gutonc's advice and cast a wider net and am very thankful that i did so.

my goal in posting this is to raise a red flag for future applicants who might come across this thread so that they may be aware that the advice here is not really based on current realities and to err on the side of caution as i did.

anyway despite what you said you are still being unnecessarily stubborn, unwilling to listen to more contemporary experience and i really have no personal vested interest in continuing this discussion. thankfully i made the right decision, ignored your advice, and will end up doing well as a result. i'm sure you'll continue to give "advice" on this board but i just wanted to make sure i put this out there as i'm sure i won't care enough to say anything after match.
 
skinMD said:
my goal in posting this is to raise a red flag for future applicants who might come across this thread so that they may be aware that the advice here is not really based on current realities and to err on the side of caution as i did.
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So you want to warn people to take an anonymous stranger's advice on the internet with a grain of salt?

Noted.
 
Thanks for the public service announcement. Next year, when I'm applying to programs, I'll be sure to do what I think is best before following gutonc's advice.

Then again, I read on the internet that the world is going to end this month, so I guess I won't have to worry about it.
 
wow. what's going on in here. i feel gutonc's advice has been realistic and not unreasonable.

bottom line, ALL programs are looking for something different. and on any given day, someone with stats of X, Y, and Z may in fact get an interview while someone with the same exact stats may not. depends on who read your app. depends on when they read your app.
 
skinMD said:
Just wanted to point out that your advice in this thread was not reflective of reality and at times dangerously incorrect and misleading. You wildly underestimate the competitiveness and selection criteria of top NE programs.
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skinMD said:
Bottom line your advice didn't work for this poster or for me (with a similar but arguably more competitive record). I asked... just to make sure that it wasn't just me.
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Perhaps I should just bring up the elephant in the room. Perhaps it wasn't his bad advice but your bad attitude that is dripping from your posts. Perhaps douchenozzle was
Flowing rampant in your PS.

Or perhaps itis the fact that this process is a crapshoot. For instance, I have yet to get an interview at duke for residency or fellowship but matched to some stellar residency and fellowship positions. You can't know who is going to offer an interview. I think the advice offered on these threads is solid.


gutonc said:
And out of curiosity, would you prefer complete radio silence (which is what you'd be likely to get if I, jdh71 and instatewaiter...all of whom are 3+ years from the process...didn't post)?
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I appreciate the shout out. Really there are about 5 people who post with any regularity. Without them there'd be no wamc threads. When you're getting advice from people who have matches and matches well, it is usual good advice.

This match season is not over. How about you (skinmd) post your stats, rough school rank and what happened to make you say the advice wasn't solid and everyone can learn.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Perhaps douchenozzle was
Flowing rampant in your PS.
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Why does that have to be the go-to response? I'm so sick of reading that on SDN. "Clearly you must be a d-bag in real life and that's why things don't work out for you" - that hyperbole is rude, unfounded, and doesn't accomplish anything.
 
Wow wtf happened? I didn't ask for advice in this thread but so far I've found that most of the advice I've read has been reasonably sound. skinMD I can feel your pain at finding this whole process tough but ranting about it but personally attacking a mod for it is a bit much, no? I agree that they can be pretty ridiculously snarky at times (jdh called me an idiot for suggesting that a hopkins resident saying it was pointless to "pre-read" or prepare for residency was somewhat authoritative) but their advice has generally been quite sound.

I think the fact that the process has been so random for folks just shows that applying for residency is a ridiculous crapshoot as someone said earlier. FWIW my stats are pretty good (250s USMLE step 1/2, honors in IM/sub-I, a couple pubs/research, some pretty solid leadership and ECs which have come up during my interviews, etc) and I still didn't get any love from programs which should have given me some based on the numbers; other times I had to make an inquiry to get an invite. I thought for a while my application had some red flag in it, but there's nothing of the sort - it's just the way the process works.
 
GutOnc for President 2016!!!!

Seriously, the direct advice I got from Jdh as well as reading GutOnc's, instatewaiter's, and DrVanNostren's advice has been a huge help.

It's free advice from strangers on the Internet. And, honestly, I feel like class rank, AOA, GPA, research etc are so linked and interdependent that I'm having a hard time understanding how their advice on this thread really led you astray.
 
ArcGurren said:
Wow wtf happened? I didn't ask for advice in this thread but so far I've found that most of the advice I've read has been reasonably sound. skinMD I can feel your pain at finding this whole process tough but ranting about it but personally attacking a mod for it is a bit much, no? I agree that they can be pretty ridiculously snarky at times (jdh called me an idiot for suggesting that a hopkins resident saying it was pointless to "pre-read" or prepare for residency was somewhat authoritative) but their advice has generally been quite sound.

I think the fact that the process has been so random for folks just shows that applying for residency is a ridiculous crapshoot as someone said earlier. FWIW my stats are pretty good (250s USMLE step 1/2, honors in IM/sub-I, a couple pubs/research, some pretty solid leadership and ECs which have come up during my interviews, etc) and I still didn't get any love from programs which should have given me some based on the numbers; other times I had to make an inquiry to get an invite. I thought for a while my application had some red flag in it, but there's nothing of the sort - it's just the way the process works.
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coffeebeanjenn said:
GutOnc for President 2016!!!!

Seriously, the direct advice I got from Jdh as well as reading GutOnc's, instatewaiter's, and DrVanNostren's advice has been a huge help.

It's free advice from strangers on the Internet. And, honestly, I feel like class rank, AOA, GPA, research etc are so linked and interdependent that I'm having a hard time understanding how their advice on this thread really led you astray.
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telling someone that their advice is incorrect is not a personal attack. don't get me wrong i think gutonc gives good advice outside of the WAMC realm but he has been off the mark in this thread.

as for the two people above... it's not hard to give advice to candidates like you guys with applications that are strong in every aspect (high step 1 and/or step 2 AND good grades AND top of the class and/or AOA AND research/pubs). A first year med student can tell you that you'll get invites from many but not all of the top programs. that's not at all what i'm talking about.

the problem is that when things get a little more intricate, requiring a more measured response and conservative approach, his advice begins to fall apart. the post i referred to above is an excellent example and is very similar to my situation. Also i'm NOT talking about getting some top-tier interviews while being overlooked by others. that's obviously going to happen even if you are an outstanding candidate with all your ducks in a row. what i'm saying is that a 240+ on step 1 does not automatically net you top tier interviews (as he and others have suggested in this thread)...in fact a high step 1 score with an otherwise mediocre record can translate to ZERO interviews from top tier NE programs.

i will concede that my initial post was a bit misleading. you guys are correct that his advice to the outstanding candidates (like he was) who only post in this thread as a humble brag is on target but for less clear cut situations his advice is ....less than stellar and at times completely incorrect.
 
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skinMD said:
telling someone that their advice is incorrect is not a personal attack. don't get me wrong i think gutonc gives good advice outside of the WAMC realm but he has been off the mark in this thread.

as for the two people above... it's not hard to give advice to candidates like you guys with applications that are strong in every aspect (high step 1 and/or step 2 AND good grades AND top of the class and/or AOA AND research/pubs). A first year med student can tell you that you'll get invites from many but not all of the top programs. that's not at all what i'm talking about.

the problem is that when things get a little more intricate, requiring a more measured response and conservative approach, his advice begins to fall apart. the post i referred to above is an excellent example and is very similar to my situation. Also i'm NOT talking about getting some top-tier interviews while being overlooked by others. that's obviously going to happen even if you are an outstanding candidate with all your ducks in a row. what i'm saying is that a 240+ on step 1 does not automatically net you top tier interviews (as he and others have suggested in this thread)...in fact a high step 1 score with an otherwise mediocre record can translate to ZERO interviews from top tier NE programs.

i will concede that my initial post was a bit misleading. you guys are correct that his advice to the outstanding candidates (like he was) who only post in this thread as a humble brag is on target but for less clear cut situations his advice is ....less than stellar and at times completely incorrect.
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Let me clarify - when I say I didn't get some interviews, I mean that I got rejected unilaterally from all of my top tier places and even some mid-tier places. Hopkins, Penn, etc gave me no love whatsoever. I'm also not at the top of my class (2nd quintile) and I'm not AOA. I don't really care, in the big scheme of things, but I also don't think gutonc or jdh or whoever misled - sometimes it's tough to judge what programs will do year in and year out, and this year there was heavy competition at the top so that things like AOA and class rank became screening criteria. A lot of the advice given was before the interview season started, and they were basing it off their personal experience. If 10% of it was misleading, I'll grant you, the other 90% was quite good otherwise IMO.
 
Uh huh. Except my Step 1 was <240 and I come from a med school that isn't even top 50.

Be careful with all of the generalizations you so generously make.

I didn't post to WAMC as a humble brag. I'm somewhat offended that you alleged I did so. I needed real advice on how many programs I needed to apply to (to contrast with the advice from my asst dean, which was to apply to >30 programs).
 
coffeebeanjenn said:
Uh huh. Except my Step 1 was <240 and I come from a med school that isn't even top 50.

Be careful with all of the generalizations you so generously make.

I didn't post to WAMC as a humble brag. I'm somewhat offended that you alleged I did so. I needed real advice on how many programs I needed to apply to (to contrast with the advice from my asst dean, which was to apply to >30 programs).
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i didn't look at your specific case nor was i implying either of you posted to brag however there were many posts that had very clear cut cases. looks like you got good solid measured advice from jdh and none of my posts have referred to jdh. your case also demonstrates exactly what i said earlier that class rank and AOA seem to be the absolute most important thing and step 1 score matters less ...which isn't in line with the advice gutonc has been giving out.


PS: 239 really isn't much different than 240.
 
skinMD said:
i didn't look at your specific case nor was i implying either of you posted to brag however there were many posts that had very clear cut cases. looks like you got good solid measured advice from jdh and none of my posts have referred to jdh. your case also demonstrates exactly what i said earlier that class rank and AOA seem to be the absolute most important thing and step 1 score matters less ...which isn't in line with the advice gutonc has been giving out.


PS: 239 really isn't much different than 240.
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All of these n=1 anecdotes are unnecessary. The PDs have made clear which factors they value and to what degree.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

Things may have changed since 2008, but it appears from these data that AOA is actually one of the least important factors in IM ranking. MSPE and clerkship grades are hugely important. Class rank is reasonably important. Step 1 is of less importance in ranking, though it might play a bigger role in getting the initial interview invite.
 
DrSnips said:
All of these n=1 anecdotes are unnecessary. The PDs have made clear which factors they value and to what degree.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

Things may have changed since 2008, but it appears from these data that AOA is actually one of the least important factors in IM ranking. MSPE and clerkship grades are hugely important. Class rank is reasonably important. Step 1 is of less importance in ranking, though it might play a bigger role in getting the initial interview invite.
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This is across ALL programs and on an average; at the top programs the criteria feels a lot like applying for a competitive subspecialty like derm or plastics.
 
DrSnips said:
All of these n=1 anecdotes are unnecessary. The PDs have made clear which factors they value and to what degree.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

Things may have changed since 2008, but it appears from these data that AOA is actually one of the least important factors in IM ranking. MSPE and clerkship grades are hugely important. Class rank is reasonably important. Step 1 is of less importance in ranking, though it might play a bigger role in getting the initial interview invite.
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this data, just like the charting outcomes data, is completely useless for such a heterogenous specialty like IM and is certainly not representative of the top (or possibly even the upper mid-tier) programs.
 
skinMD said:
this data, just like the charting outcomes data, is completely useless for such a heterogenous specialty like IM and is certainly not representative of the top (or possibly even the upper mid-tier) programs.
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Bingo. I would expect this to be very different for the elites, starting with 'med school reputation' and 'interest in an academic career'.
 
ArcGurren said:
This is across ALL programs and on an average; at the top programs the criteria feels a lot like applying for a competitive subspecialty like derm or plastics.
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The derm and plastics data also showed similar trends with regards to importance of AOA vs clerkship grades, with the exception that derm and plastics care much more heavily about LORs than IM.

skinMD said:
this data, just like the charting outcomes data, is completely useless for such a heterogenous specialty like IM and is certainly not representative of the top (or possibly even the upper mid-tier) programs.
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It is very possible that these data are useless for top IM programs. Saying that they are "certainly not representative" would of course require data that you have not presented.

Anecdotes of individual interview invites or lack of invites are definitely useless. Sorting through all of the applicants, you will always be able to find people who had the same stats but different outcomes with respect to an individual program.
 
I was explicitly told by my dean that some programs used AOA to screen this year. Not sure if they did in previous years, but my guess is that the ones that did this year probably did the previous years too.
 
From my experience sounds pretty correct that the "top programs" are using AOA and grades from all four year more than Step scores.... (at least in California)

Step1: 252
Step2: 243
No AOA
Clerkship grades: Honors/High Pass half and half
First two years: Pass/High Pass half and half
Good letters
Research: 1 pub, 1 first author poster/abstract, multiple projects

No love from:
UCLA, UCSF, Stanford, UCSD

Interviews at:
UCI, UCLA-Harbor, UCLA-Olive view, USC, Cedars, kaiser-la, CPMC, SCVMC, etc...
 
wyme84 said:
From my experience sounds pretty correct that the "top programs" are using AOA and grades from all four year more than Step scores.... (at least in California)

Step1: 252
Step2: 243
No AOA
Clerkship grades: Honors/High Pass half and half
First two years: Pass/High Pass half and half
Good letters
Research: 1 pub, 1 first author poster/abstract, multiple projects

No love from:
UCLA, UCSF, Stanford, UCSD

Interviews at:
UCI, UCLA-Harbor, UCLA-Olive view, USC, Cedars, kaiser-la, CPMC, SCVMC, etc...
Click to expand...


I think everyone is thinking way to deeply about this. I am neither AOA, nor top of my class. I don't have stellar grades, and my step scores are lower than yours and I do not attend even a top 40 school, but I managed to get IVs from 2 of the big 4 and a bunch of top 20 places, but I've also gotten more than my fair share of rejections from the top places as well as many mid-tier places. I really think the top programs are looking for that "it" factor and leadership, whether it be from a prior career or something you've done in medical school to stand out. I am no way writing this to brag, I wrote this to show that getting IVs at the top is very much a crapshoot and no one can predict if you will get those IVs. Simply put, don't have any expectations going into this process, if you want to play the lottery, toss $100 into the pile and apply to all the top ten places but don't be upset if you don't get tossed a bone.

Regardless of what the naysayers say, I appreciate all of the advice I gleaned from the WAMC thread. Good luck to everyone as the interview season moves forward, I am sure we will all end up in a good place.
 
Wow, such vitriol. I have to say that I've appreciated this thread. Haven't posted in it, but kept up with it when trying to trim down my application list. The general advice (ignoring individual cases, but rather looking at trends) has been very helpful.

And obviously it's more than just step 1/2 scores... otherwise why bother with the rest of the application? Also, it should be pretty obvious that school matters, too (most places don't post their residents' step scores, but they do post where they came from; doesn't it make sense that they'd want people to say "Ooooh, they snagged a [insert top 10 school here] grad?").

If you base your actions off what anonymous people on the internet tell you to do, you're going to have bigger issues than where you match.
 
Live4Life said:
I think everyone is thinking way to deeply about this. I am neither AOA, nor top of my class. I don't have stellar grades, and my step scores are lower than yours and I do not attend even a top 40 school, but I managed to get IVs from 2 of the big 4 and a bunch of top 20 places, but I've also gotten more than my fair share of rejections from the top places as well as many mid-tier places. I really think the top programs are looking for that "it" factor and leadership, whether it be from a prior career or something you've done in medical school to stand out. I am no way writing this to brag, I wrote this to show that getting IVs at the top is very much a crapshoot and no one can predict if you will get those IVs. Simply put, don't have any expectations going into this process, if you want to play the lottery, toss $100 into the pile and apply to all the top ten places but don't be upset if you don't get tossed a bone.

Regardless of what the naysayers say, I appreciate all of the advice I gleaned from the WAMC thread. Good luck to everyone as the interview season moves forward, I am sure we will all end up in a good place.
Click to expand...

all very important statements. i did not get invites from those "big 4", but i got my fair share of invites from programs i did not think i would have a shot at. my stop scores are mediocre at best but rocked the **** out of 3rd year. the rest of my app is just okay.
 
At this point, I have no idea what to think anymore. I know plenty of people with the above including good ECs, pubs, strong step scores, who got no love anywhere in the top 10, and the only thing they were missing were AOA (that I'm aware of). I think at the end of the day, we all only have anecdotal evidence, I don't think any of us really knows what's going on here. I guess it really is a "crapshoot" at the top.
 
wyme84 said:
From my experience sounds pretty correct that the "top programs" are using AOA and grades from all four year more than Step scores.... (at least in California)

Step1: 252
Step2: 243
No AOA
Clerkship grades: Honors/High Pass half and half
First two years: Pass/High Pass half and half
Good letters
Research: 1 pub, 1 first author poster/abstract, multiple projects

No love from:
UCLA, UCSF, Stanford, UCSD

Interviews at:
UCI, UCLA-Harbor, UCLA-Olive view, USC, Cedars, kaiser-la, CPMC, SCVMC, etc...
Click to expand...

CA (esp the 4 you mentioned) is a different beast.

But as others have pointed out, there's a lot that goes into this and there's no single formula (for any one program, let alone the entire spectrum of residencies) to help you decide where to apply. I (and others) have answered truthfully (if snarkily) based on our knowledge and experience. Nobody knows everything and the advice you receive on SDN (from myself or others) is worth exactly what you paid for it (unless you are a Donor, in which case it's worth much less than what you paid for it).

From the other side of things, when reviewing fellowship apps this year, people who I thought should be a slam dunk to interview (based on how they looked on paper) were sometimes overlooked, while others that I s***canned immediately got invites and relatively high ranks.

TL;DR...it's a crapshoot and there's little you can do about it.
 
I hope there'll be a lot of contributions to the 'official where did you match' thread so people can share their experiences with stats to help those in the future (at least with information)!
 
Here's a WAMC that probably no one can answer (but maybe some can speculate on). I can handle speculation:

Earlier this week, I got an invitation from what will likely be my top ranked choice. I can't imagine I'm very high on their rank list seeing as I got an invitation...Dec. 13th.

I don't even want to get my hopes up, though, cause it's a super competitive program. Among other things it's ranked far higher than any other program I've gotten an interview at (no this is not the only reason I am going to rank them first, there is a lot that goes into it, yes I have visited the program/location before, no I do not have any contacts or anyone pulling strings for me in the program).

Soo...anyone have any speculation about WAMC? Or for that matter what I can do to really make a difference (other than telling them at my interview, which will be my *final* interview that I will be ranking them first?)
 
quepatho said:
Here's a WAMC that probably no one can answer (but maybe some can speculate on). I can handle speculation:

Earlier this week, I got an invitation from what will likely be my top ranked choice. I can't imagine I'm very high on their rank list seeing as I got an invitation...Dec. 13th.

I don't even want to get my hopes up, though, cause it's a super competitive program. Among other things it's ranked far higher than any other program I've gotten an interview at (no this is not the only reason I am going to rank them first, there is a lot that goes into it, yes I have visited the program/location before, no I do not have any contacts or anyone pulling strings for me in the program).

Soo...anyone have any speculation about WAMC? Or for that matter what I can do to really make a difference (other than telling them at my interview, which will be my *final* interview that I will be ranking them first?)
Click to expand...

We really can't say. I don't have any idea how that program treats people post-interview. It's possible that everyone walks in with a mostly blank slate and you'll knock their socks off during the interview and end up near the top of the list. It's also possible that they have a pretty set idea of where people are going to end up, and since you were one of the later ones they sent an invite to you'll be at the bottom of the list. Or anywhere in between.

What I can say is this: Going to the interview gives you infinitely better chances than not getting it in the first place. If you're seriously considering the program (and it sounds like you are), and the price of the plane ticket isn't too much, go. Then rank it how you want to when you submit your list in February. Who knows, you may end up hating the program...

The algorithm favors the applicant, you have nothing to lose.
 
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