about Ritalin abuse for academic achievement

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If you're so PRO-ritalin/adderall/etc then just go get diagnosed with ADD and head to Walgreens to pick up your script. Heres the criteria they use and I'm sure that a majority of people could make a case for a diagnosis without lying to a physician and risking legal penalty for either of you:

http://www.mental-health-today.com/add/dsm.htm

As far as the morality issue goes. It IS a legal OTC medication in other countries. So is it immoral for students in India, for instance, to be taking Adderall for pulling all-nighters even though its legally available to anyone there? Think about it... You're using United States law to determine what is moral and what is immoral. So would you then agree that gay marriage is immoral too? Maybe you do, but that is just one example where the relationship between law and morality is probably out of line according to a large number of US citizens
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I am very pro-ritalin for those with ADHD symptoms. I couldn't stay awake for the life of me in class or during studying even with hourly coffee/redbull/monster injections. With the time release ritalin prescribed, I have no problems paying attention in class and then studying for 3-5 hours a day.

There are people who do not even need coffee to stay alert all day long. Good for them, but I need the juice to get things done. Just like most people cannot do things I find easy and natural. No one said life was fair, so I even the playing field. It would be silly not to, as long as it is safe (i.e. pre-and-interval ECGs).
 
g3pro said:
I don't do ritalin, or drink coffee. Or do any other performance enhancing substances. Why am I able to succeed without any of that stuff yet people need to resort to illegal drug use to stay competitive? :confused:


Is this what med schools are like these days? Drug-abusing gunners who are so obsessed with out-competing other students that they will go to any lengths to score above them?
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If I don't drink coffee I would fall asleep in every single lecture and likely fail out of medical school. Are you saying I'm getting an unfair advantage for drinking coffee? Or that I'm a drug-abusing gunner? I'd say that the vast majority of kids in my class are coffee drinkers and the vast majority of them are also not gunners
 
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anyone know of any legal substances that dont have horrible side effects? I tried coffee but it just doesn't work for me. I'd rather not start using ritalin and adderall because I would have to buy them illegally, they would expensive, and there are unpleasant and unknown side effects. So far the only thing I've heard that actually works pretty good is the 5 hour energy drink. Anyone have any other suggestions?
 
poiuyt123 said:
anyone know of any legal substances that dont have horrible side effects? I tried coffee but it just doesn't work for me. I'd rather not start using ritalin and adderall because I would have to buy them illegally, they would expensive, and there are unpleasant and unknown side effects. So far the only thing I've heard that actually works pretty good is the 5 hour energy drink. Anyone have any other suggestions?
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Redbull and Monster.
 
poiuyt123 said:
anyone know of any legal substances that dont have horrible side effects? I tried coffee but it just doesn't work for me. I'd rather not start using ritalin and adderall because I would have to buy them illegally, they would expensive, and there are unpleasant and unknown side effects. So far the only thing I've heard that actually works pretty good is the 5 hour energy drink. Anyone have any other suggestions?
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I've actually found that staying very well hydrated works pretty good for keeping me alert. I also drink a few cups of coffee per day though too. Lots of people I know drink Red Bull or other energy drinks and that seems to work. Getting a decent amount of sleep to begin with appears to be beficial as well :D
 
kdburton said:
I've actually found that staying very well hydrated works pretty good for keeping me alert. I also drink a few cups of coffee per day though too. Lots of people I know drink Red Bull or other energy drinks and that seems to work. Getting a decent amount of sleep to begin with appears to be beficial as well :D
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I pretty much do everything "natural" that people say to do in order for you to be energized. I exercise, eat well, drink water, get enough sleep, etc but none of it really helps. Therefore I need to resort to something that will give me some extra energy for approximately 2-3 hours.
 
poiuyt123 said:
I pretty much do everything "natural" that people say to do in order for you to be energized. I exercise, eat well, drink water, get enough sleep, etc but none of it really helps. Therefore I need to resort to something that will give me some extra energy for approximately 2-3 hours.
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If you're talking about undergrad studying, then just deal with it because unless you really have ADD, it is a waste to to use medication for UG classes.

If nothing natural works then you have a imbalance somewhere. Go get tested. It will make a difference in med school.
 
I think part of the problem with ADD drugs is the fact that how do we define who is ADD and who is not. I don't think that there is a fine boundary between lazy/dumb and actually having a physical problem with focusing. It seems to me that every doctor has their own standards, which further complicates matters when half of doctors say a kid is ADD and the other half doesn't.

Further, I don't begrudge anyone who competes with me using drugs. I don't need them to perform at my level, so that's their choice. I do worry about the long term effects of such usage, because it really isn't studied nearly as much as it should be by the medical community. If some ADD drugs are as harmless as caffeine, then I see no reason for them not to be stocked right next to my favorite columbian bend. I drink coffee when I need it, decaf when I want the taste. If some ADD drugs can safely be used as focusing drugs, then more power to those who want to use it. All substances are addictive, and thats the price. The reason I drink Decaf half of the time is because I recognize that I have a dependence on caffeine. If I drink it for a month and then stop, I start sleeping 12 hours a day and I get headaches. Your body adapts to what is put into it, and removing that substance causes some level or readjustment, painful or not.

What I don't advocate is people using it without a prescription, because of the fact that, 1, you don't really know what your getting from Jerry down the hall. 2, you don't know if it will react to you negatively or not. I had a friend you had to go to the hospital because she had a reaction to the supposed ADD drug. She wouldn't tell the doctors what she was on (assuming it was really that), and it wasn't a pleasant experience for her. A doctor might not write you a prescription, but he or she WILL tell you if your other meds/conditions cause any increased risks. They aren't dumb, they know kids don't have to get it from them, and they protect you.
 
Neither ritalin or adderal is "cheating", if it helps you better your self then it is well warranted in taking. If one where snorting ritalin, that would be a totally different situation.

Getting a script for ADD meds is not hard, Docs are more willing to give the long acting versions since the short acting versions are usually abused.

vyvanse has been manufactured so that it must be swallowed in order to work and thus can not be snorted.
 
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Many of you are missing a main point here: it is pretty easy to be diagnosed with ADD. It follows then, if you say that taking these drugs is somehow unethical, then claiming to have ADD can be unethical too. Since many people can genuinely claim to conform to ADD requirements, how do you actually tell who really has ADD? I have read some articles that question the very existence of the disease. Given all the distractions of the modern day world, it is not hard to imagine that most of us could benefit with something that focuses our concentration. Anyone claiming Ritalin is addictive, claims that all ADD patients are drug addicts too. Please, provide a link to a scientific study that shows Ritalin is addictive. Wait a minute, MORE addictive than caffeine. Some of the things I have read have shown that Ritalin is like caffeine without the side effects.

I was wondering, has anyone here tried all three: Ritalin, Adderal, and 250mg caffeine pill? What are the main differences and similarities?
 
Excelsius said:
Many of you are missing a main point here: it is pretty easy to be diagnosed with ADD. It follows then, if you say that taking these drugs is somehow unethical, then claiming to have ADD can be unethical too. Since many people can genuinely claim to conform to ADD requirements, how do you actually tell who really has ADD? I have read some articles that question the very existence of the disease.
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I'll agree with you, working in an adult population, diagnosing someone with ADHD and giving them ritalin or whatever does make me feel a little wary because it is absolutely so subjective most of the time. I do feel better knowing there are people out there like a good friend of mine who absolutely did very well his whole life until college when he couldn't cope and his lifelong ADHD he had always managed was affecting him. Medicated, he's pretty much the same guy, but he can just focus now.

Kids though, I would feel pretty confident treating. In my peds experience, there are two types of kids on Adderal, Ritalin, Vyvanse, whatever. There are absolutely the kids who the parents are using it so they don't have to parent. These are the kids who are bouncing off the walls, screaming at you, when you walk in the exam room. But you also see the otherside, the polite nice 10 year old who you have a pleasent talk with and you look down at his med list and he's taking a stimulant, who'd you never guess was ADHD. There are definitely some kids out there who have a night and day type change when using medication.
 
There is a fine line between being a lazy son-of-a-bitch and being ADD. ADHD is another story, and is one that can't be easily confused with a slacker. If you take meds to control either of these diseases that you have been diagnosed with by a physician who actually did a full workup on you, then good for you.

However, the medical student who goes to his doc and "presents" with the symptoms of ADD in order to get some juice is a ****ing *****. Ritalin is just a mild form of amphetamine, and comes with all the same adverse reactions of amphetamines including psychosis, heart attack, insomnia, hallucinations, depression, all the way to elevated liver enzymes. Now as we are all medical students we know that these reactions are usually uncommon and most people typically do well with the medication. But what about people lying about their conditions that are taking them? The med student who is tired and can't pay attention because he/she doesn't exercise, eat right, or use proper "sleep hygiene" doesn't usually have imbalanced brain chemicals like those with ADD, but rather is just a ****-up who has never had to balance something as simple as a checkbook in their lives. Now, after the party that was college, they must do real work, and they can't handle it without procrastination.

This is completely fine in my book, and does not make them bad people. The same thing happened to me. The answer, however, is not drugs. Exposing yourself to these risks, however small, indicates a lack of judgment on the part of the student. Instead, look at how you can EASILY improve your work by simply doing the right things for your health, and most of you will see a big change. As future physicians, you will be asked to handle the same amount or more work as you got in med school for the rest of your life. I hope you don't need long term use of Ritalin to do it.
 
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Ritalin was no big deal when I was in Mexico.. It was over the counter..
Its a sympathomimetic without the euphoria of amphetamine or methamphtimine..
A good dose of coffee or caffeine does it for me..

What you do not want to do is get heart attack, aneurysm, stroke, or aortic dissection (spelling) studying for "a step" and taking Ritalin (methylphenidate)
[My favorite drug is Lasix-please pass the Lasix]

>flight, fright, or fight example>:scared:
 
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I read the complete thread n tho Im nt a med studnt...Ive been studyn psychology n lately drugs..n Ive realized that things are relative...tho we're nt HDAD or ADD patients, we do lack concentration(in my case worse that avg) n to sum extent the seriousness...I don wanna use Ritalin on regular basis. That way I'd be giving up the hope to get disciplined one day. But I wanna use it before mid terms n finals to score at least average. Im nt a score hungry guy but at least keeping up with the average population of engineers is important for the system we are a part of..
 
Mirror Form said:
Your "legal" argument is rudimentary and just plain stupid. If I overstated my problems studying to my doctor so that he'd write me a rx, it would then be legal. Would that make it okay then???? According to your legal argument, that would be more moral then jay-walking.
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FYI. It IS illegal to lie to a doctor in order to get prescription drugs.

Here is an extreme example:

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/45630422.html


EDIT

I just noticed the date this thread was created. :laugh:
 
theinfamousap said:
I read the complete thread n tho Im nt a med studnt...Ive been studyn psychology n lately drugs..n Ive realized that things are relative...tho we're nt HDAD or ADD patients, we do lack concentration(in my case worse that avg) n to sum extent the seriousness...I don wanna use Ritalin on regular basis. That way I'd be giving up the hope to get disciplined one day. But I wanna use it before mid terms n finals to score at least average. Im nt a score hungry guy but at least keeping up with the average population of engineers is important for the system we are a part of..
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Penetrating analysis. Thank you.

DERP.jpg
 
People here are confusing morality with legality. These are two separate concepts and don't have to be consistent with one another. Laws are generally created to reflect a culture's morals, but having a law for every situation is impossible. There are also cases where the law and morality conflict with one another.

Regarding use of Ritalin/Adderall/etc., there are two philosophical debates to be considered. The morality of using Ritalin is not connected to its legality--it is a question of the fundamental role of medicine and fair access.

The first question is whether medicine, traditionally a profession that attempts to restore people to normal function, ought to be involved in enhancing people beyond normal function. For example, if tomorrow scientists discovered a stimulant drug that increased mental performance with absolutely no side effects, would giving all of society the drug be morally permissible? Some would say yes, because the normal functioning human state is already enhanced in so many ways by technology that it seems unreasonable to maintain a status quo bias just for drugs. Some would say no, because medicine's role is strictly to heal, and not to enhance.

The second is a question of access. Consider again a drug that increases mental performance with no side effects, but now consider that the drug is very costly to produce and only 10% of society can get it through a lottery system. Would it be morally permissible for the 10% who win the lottery to enhance themselves? Again, some people would say yes because this action would improve the utility of society as a whole. Others would say no because it is unfair to the other 90% of the populationh

If you are truly concerned about the fact that Ritalin abuse is immoral, report potential cases to your dean. After all, you've always hated those gunners anyway, right?
 
People aren't confusing legality with morality. It is more or less a part of the same porridge. Morality serves manipulative purposes, and so does legality. The deluded and gullible ones use it unintentionally manipulative, to tout their interests and wishes, and the cynical uses them deliberately to manipulate.

Using "should" without "in order to gain..." is nothing but a brainfart of a manipulative and maybe manipulated mind. It is stupid.

You might be pi-ed off that you feel the competition from druggies, and a pressure to use drugs yourself. Yes, your interests are compromised. But going from that, into claiming that people somehow should follow your "morals" is just a feeble attempt at concealing yourself saying: do as I tell you, because I want you to.

All you ethics and moral people are disgusting. You are bogus and nothing but a lying heap of garbage. You have no honesty and no integrity. You lie to yourself, and wrap yourself up in the same fantasies that religious *****s believing in spaghetti monsters and unicorns do. It is sick, sick, sick.

Yes, you may have a conscience. It has components of more fundamental self-interest programming (e.g reciprocity-levels) and cultural components. Believing there is anything more is just plain BS. Go take your unicorns somewhere else, please.
 
Ok i just became a member here to clear a few things up very very quickly.

my name is george im 23 years old, i was diagnosed with ADHD 8 months ago, now lets say this as fast as possible, 8 months ago, i was about to lose my job my girlfriend get kicked out of my house, i didnt had dreams in life everything was going bad i was almost got kicked out of college, no one liked me because i was extemely ennoying and energetic and i never listened or concentrated in my life, sad part was i thought i was "normal" now i was put on ritalin 10mg daily, which helped me for 3 hours, after a few long sessions and increasing my doses the psychiatrist managed to put me on 60mg, never ever have i felt so focused attentive concentrated, Iam now promoted a supervisor at work, everyone loves me, i have just finished filming with 2 big companies on TV, i had 3 pay rises, im now studying to be a doctor (psychologist) my life has done a FULL turn around i can do everything i can think off, now i NEED ritalin to help with my ADHD symptoms i NEVER done other drugs and never have drunk alcohol, never have abused ritalin and never will, it helps me extremely much with my life, people that take it to have an "advantage" and pull off "all nighters" i find this very very sad, the reason methylphenidate is a shedule 2 controlled substance is the actual reason why im here because stupid people abuse it to get good grades when in fact is not NEEDED people with ADHD actually need the medication sure its called a smart drug and sure when i take it i can think clearly memorize things be calm focused and so on, but even if you go to the psychiatrist and get a "FAKE" diagnosis so you can abuse the drugs, weather you get it prescribed or not if you havent got ADHD then your abusing it, (thats in my eyes) now the reason people get it is either to get "high" or to get good grades in univ-school-college, as i mentioned those people are just sad people, when i take ritalin my brain becomes extremely clear im using it for the reason to help with my life, i have had COUNTLES people saying ur "cheating" or your getting an "advantage" on the drugs, either way yes i feel like i get a big advantage as i can do things better than others when im on the drug, even before i was using the drug i was great on the things i liked, but working, and other things in life where falling apart, everyone near me knows im extremely clever but i just couldnt control the way i was, now i can, and if you think of either having a "fake" diagnosis to get the drug or just buying it from a friend than a HUGE HUGE shame on you, the drug is destructive as it is while using it as prescribed but using it withought having ADHD or being prescribed the drug then thats plain just PLAIN ABUSE! whatever you all say is just plain stupid to use it when not needed, and to be completely honest both of my uncles my auntie and 3 of my cousins are ALL doctors everyone of them owns their practise, psychiatrists, surgeons GP's everyone of them, they all have ADHD the skill is in everyone but some people need help just like i did, why waste a life so damn precious when you can help the people, thats how i was inspired to be a doctor, i hope people take this message as a friendly approach and actually understand that they dont need the drug to make them achieve in life, people that have ADHD then they need it people that dont have ADHD shouldnt even go near it in a million years, no matter what the circumstances are, is a potent drug and if misused it completely ruins life, you think by taking it you become a doctor but it will ruin you in the long run if you havent got ADHD i get seen by the psychiatrist every 4-6 months and i get trusted, hence i dont use it on saturdays and sundays unless i work, which shows that some people have morals, i actually only use it AS NEEDED if i dont work or study i wont even look at it, unless i can see that i annoy people then i might take a very small dose to calm down, my message is if you go to the doctors faking ADHD to get ritalin then complete shame on you. end of i wont check back and you wont hear from me again so dont bother repying i just wrote it to show my appreceation on the drug and to stop people abusing it.
 
dr agro said:
Ok i just became a member here to clear a few things up very very quickly.

my name is george im 23 years old, [REDACTED].
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Wow you actually used 2 sentences there to write the entire paragraph. Are you trying to let us know your ADHD state of mind? Thanks for the necro bump I guess.
 
Take it easy on that stuff brah, you're clearly high as a kite when you wrote this. You don't want to end up like Charlie Sheen.
 
If he didn't fall into convulsions after tweaking so hard writing that, I'd be surprised.
 
bobow98 said:
Wow you actually used 2 sentences there to write the entire paragraph. Are you trying to let us know your ADHD state of mind? Thanks for the necro bump I guess.
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OOOOooooohhh, he mad. He changed his status from pre-med to pre-psych
 
dr agro said:
Ok i just became a member here to clear a few things up very very quickly.

my name is george im 23 years old, i was diagnosed with ADHD 8 months ago, now lets say this as fast as possible, 8 months ago, i was about to lose my job my girlfriend get kicked out of my house, i didnt had dreams in life everything was going bad i was almost got kicked out of college, no one liked me because i was extemely ennoying and energetic and i never listened or concentrated in my life, sad part was i thought i was "normal" now i was put on ritalin 10mg daily, which helped me for 3 hours, after a few long sessions and increasing my doses the psychiatrist managed to put me on 60mg, never ever have i felt so focused attentive concentrated, Iam now promoted a supervisor at work, everyone loves me, i have just finished filming with 2 big companies on TV, i had 3 pay rises, im now studying to be a doctor (psychologist) my life has done a FULL turn around i can do everything i can think off, now i NEED ritalin to help with my ADHD symptoms i NEVER done other drugs and never have drunk alcohol, never have abused ritalin and never will, it helps me extremely much with my life, people that take it to have an "advantage" and pull off "all nighters" i find this very very sad, the reason methylphenidate is a shedule 2 controlled substance is the actual reason why im here because stupid people abuse it to get good grades when in fact is not NEEDED people with ADHD actually need the medication sure its called a smart drug and sure when i take it i can think clearly memorize things be calm focused and so on, but even if you go to the psychiatrist and get a "FAKE" diagnosis so you can abuse the drugs, weather you get it prescribed or not if you havent got ADHD then your abusing it, (thats in my eyes) now the reason people get it is either to get "high" or to get good grades in univ-school-college, as i mentioned those people are just sad people, when i take ritalin my brain becomes extremely clear im using it for the reason to help with my life, i have had COUNTLES people saying ur "cheating" or your getting an "advantage" on the drugs, either way yes i feel like i get a big advantage as i can do things better than others when im on the drug, even before i was using the drug i was great on the things i liked, but working, and other things in life where falling apart, everyone near me knows im extremely clever but i just couldnt control the way i was, now i can, and if you think of either having a "fake" diagnosis to get the drug or just buying it from a friend than a HUGE HUGE shame on you, the drug is destructive as it is while using it as prescribed but using it withought having ADHD or being prescribed the drug then thats plain just PLAIN ABUSE! whatever you all say is just plain stupid to use it when not needed, and to be completely honest both of my uncles my auntie and 3 of my cousins are ALL doctors everyone of them owns their practise, psychiatrists, surgeons GP's everyone of them, they all have ADHD the skill is in everyone but some people need help just like i did, why waste a life so damn precious when you can help the people, thats how i was inspired to be a doctor, i hope people take this message as a friendly approach and actually understand that they dont need the drug to make them achieve in life, people that have ADHD then they need it people that dont have ADHD shouldnt even go near it in a million years, no matter what the circumstances are, is a potent drug and if misused it completely ruins life, you think by taking it you become a doctor but it will ruin you in the long run if you havent got ADHD i get seen by the psychiatrist every 4-6 months and i get trusted, hence i dont use it on saturdays and sundays unless i work, which shows that some people have morals, i actually only use it AS NEEDED if i dont work or study i wont even look at it, unless i can see that i annoy people then i might take a very small dose to calm down, my message is if you go to the doctors faking ADHD to get ritalin then complete shame on you. end of i wont check back and you wont hear from me again so dont bother repying i just wrote it to show my appreceation on the drug and to stop people abusing it.
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I went to med school and got emails like this. I put my book down, found the person that wrote it, made them put their shaky hands down from their laptop and take a break from the juice for a while. All your professors need is one email like this and you're getting referred for a soft psych eval.

Cocaine (available to ENTS), Hydrocodone/morphone, Oxycodone/morphone, opium, amphetamine, straight methamphetamine (desoxyn on the Rx) and PCP are all schedule 2 drugs. If you're a vet, you can also get Ketamine very easily. The PI sheet lists SUDDEN DEATH as one of the possible side effects of Adderall and that was enough for me. No Stephens-Johnson, not anaphylaxis, not renal failure...SUDDEN DEATH. It goes without saying that the posession or use of any of these without an active prescription on file is illegal. You'll want to carry the bottle with you at all times, especially if traveling.

If you're bored with the material, take a break and hit it again until you get through it. If you need to stay awake, coffee or Vivarin will be better for that purpose than the highs and lows of the prescription stimulants and their side-effects. The "stim twitch" is very obvious to your teachers and classmates if you're self-dosing whatever you feel like; you're not fooling anybody. Seeing a sea of your fellow students suddenly show severe Huntington's during an exam is ridiculous and almost laughable. Even so, many are addicted to the effect without being physiologically addicted to the drug.

None of these drugs make you smarter or able to retain information better, they MAY help you use more of you're brain on one subject, but probably not as much so if they don't actually have a diagnosis of ADHD of some subtype.

You know what works really well??? Turn off your phone and laptop, disable your FaceBook account and brew a cup of coffee for drinking while you look through the hard copy of the book you're trying to study.
 
Psycho Doctor said:
I sort of agree with you for the most part. And if med school wasn't so difficult to get into, no one would feel the need to abuse it. To much coffee actually make syou sick and has other physical problems. Adderal and ritalin seem quicker and safer to use short-term and people ustify that if it's used as a precription for others it can't realisticallyhave severe long term effects.

Just curious what everyone'e views are on amphetamines to stay awake? How about diet pills for someone slightly overweight but they really want it to pull all-nighters.
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Definitely not true. I took adderall for a couple months and became physically addicted to it. I was wrongfully diagnosed with ADD and adderall turned out to be a nightmare for me. When I stopped taking it, I would wake up in the mornings and be tired within an hour or two. I started getting chronic migraines, blood pressure increased significantly in the long run. I could go on and on about this. Adderall is pretty much speed and it's dangerous even in the short run.
 
I was told recently by a neurologist that ritalin/adderall affects can be compared to that of coffee when it comes to cognitive enhancement in normal people. I've never done them before, but I'm assuming that's not true?
 
RockinRoll said:
What about the people that prescribe the drugs?
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Either enablers or victims of lying patients, take your poison. Though I'd amend the above to say people who abuse drugs, not those that use (and taking Ritalin w/o a Rx is abuse).
 
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