Ph.D./Psy.D. comparison

Thanks psych 101!!

Here are some links -- most address the original question from this thread, but some might also be helpful to those currently in the application process. Might result in more than one sticky? Check out/post whatever you think is appropriate or helpful.

http://www.appic.org/Surveys/2004/2004PredocQ21.pdf
“supply & demand” issue – 2004 predoc internship director responses

http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan00/ed1.html
PsyD degree turns 25

http://www.psichi.org/pubs/articles/article_171.asp
Boulder vs. Vail model, typical student stats

http://www.appic.org/downloads/Sati...gypsydvsphd.pdf
2001 PhD & PsyD recipients satisfaction with grad training survey

http://www.psichi.org/pubs/articles/article_90.asp
article about master’s degree in psychology

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb04/number.html
2004 article: PhD #s declining, typical PhD student stats

http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/issues/docdata.htm
Results from Survey of Earned Doctorates (completed by each doctoral recipient upon graduation)

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/issuebrf/sib00321.htm
PsyD vs. PhD debt at graduation

http://research.apa.org/
links to APA surveys (e.g., salaries, employment, intern applicants)

http://psych.fullerton.edu/psych466/lbrandt/psych.html
applying for grad study in psychology

http://www.psywww.com/careers/options.htm
grad school options, types of degrees, licensure explanation

http://www.apa.org/ed/graduate/faqs.html
APA FAQs about grad study in psychology (e.g., PsyD vs. PhD diffs)

http://www.lemoyne.edu/OTRP/otrpres.../psyd/psyd.html
2004 PsyD program summary (location, accreditation, etc.)

http://www.lemoyne.edu/OTRP/otrpres...inical-phd.html
clinical/counseling PsyD.PhD

http://www.lemoyne.edu/OTRP/otrpres...linical-ma.html
clinical/counseling psychology master’s degree

http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/doctoral.html
accredited doctoral programs in professional psychology

http://www.psychgrad.org/
applying, succeeding, life after grad school – lots of links

http://www.rider.edu/%7Esuler/gradschl.html#counseling
grad schools & careers in psychology

http://www.psichi.org/pubs/articles/article_41.asp
applying to grad schools in clinical psychology

http://www.psichi.org/pubs/articles/article_174.asp
gaining admission to the school of your choice.

Originally Posted by MD2b20004

so what is the difference in a nut shell?!!!!

Answer: Ph.D = a stronger research focus
Psy.D = a stronger clinical focus

As a result PsyD's are generally not involved in academia and usually have a solely clinical practice (as opposed to Phd's who may often split their time between a practice and doing research at a university.)

With all the talk of diploma mills, can anyone give me a good idea of which PsyD programs out there are actually well-respected? So far, my sense is that Baylor, Rutgers, and Virginia Consortium are way up there how about Pepperdine/George Washington etc?

Also, it's quite clear that PhD programs are looking for students with interests that "fit" a particular professor. How about PsyD programs? What do they tend to look for? Previous clinical work experience (and how do you get that if you don't have the qualification the the first place... does volunteering at a inpatient psych ward help for example)?

Originally Posted by leikcaj

With all the talk of diploma mills, can anyone give me a good idea of which PsyD programs out there are actually well-respected? So far, my sense is that Baylor, Rutgers, and Virginia Consortium are way up there how about Pepperdine/George Washington etc?

While I think there are some rankings that exist for clinical psychology programs, such rankings are rather meaningless. The notion of getting accepted into a "top" PsyD program has little relevance for the actual work/position you ultimately set out to pursue. (It's even more ludicrous when you consider that not a few clinical psych PhDs consider "well-respected" and "PsyD" to be an oxymoron.)

Your concern regarding prestige would be more relevant applied to the decision of choosing which law school or MBA programs enjoy the finest reputations. The same calculus, however, does not apply to clinical psych programs -- and particularly not to PsyD programs whose research output is comparatively meager, the metric that is applied to determining prestige. After all, graduates from the top law school and MBA programs have interested employers lining up to offer them very sweet salaries. There, graduating from one of the "Ivies" translates into $$. That's simply not the case with newly graduated doctoral psychs. How much industry recruiting, if any, exists for clinical psychs? It's definitely a buyer's market.

What matters most is finding the school(s) whose program best matches your interests with the important caveat that you limit your choices to APA-accredited programs, if for no other reason than graduating from a program that's not APA accredited may result in chronic professional migraines. (I know of someone who graduated from a non-APA program and years later started all over again -- from scratch!! -- at an APA-approved program as a result of all of the black balling.)

There's so much diversity in the settings and areas of specialties that psychologists work that the notion of "top" programs quickly dissolves itself. It's a vanity issue that in the long run concerns only other snobbish psychologists. They're in the minority. For the remaining majority, a career in clinical psychology is a self-made profession -- it's what you put into it, not the name on the diploma.

Thanks! That was really helpful to know... and comforting!

i have been reading through these threads and there seems to be a lot of debate as to whether the Ph.D is better than the Psy.d and i have now begun to wonder whether i am making the right choice in choosing a Psy.D!!

From what i've read....

1. Psy.D is practical work only whereas Ph.D allows for both
2.Psy.D seems to be getting very little respect
3. the opportunities for teaching and research for a Psy.D is very limited

Is it true that you are really limiting your opportunities in teaching and research. while my primary focus would be on the practicing of psych. i would like the opportunity to go into research in later years. in that case why doesn't one go back and do a Ph.D later on when they feel it is time to change, or is that a stupid idea?

i would really appreciate if you could help as i dont want to make a foolish or mis-guided decision.

I just wanted to say that was beautifully said and I appreciate your comment

Originally Posted by leikcaj

With all the talk of diploma mills, can anyone give me a good idea of which PsyD programs out there are actually well-respected? So far, my sense is that Baylor, Rutgers, and Virginia Consortium are way up there how about Pepperdine/George Washington etc?

Also, it's quite clear that PhD programs are looking for students with interests that "fit" a particular professor. How about PsyD programs? What do they tend to look for? Previous clinical work experience (and how do you get that if you don't have the qualification the the first place... does volunteering at a inpatient psych ward help for example)?

It's true some schools seem like mills.. out in CA, they grind a lot of grads out at alliant which used to be called CSPP- i've met psychologists who are very bright from CSPP and I've met some who weren't so bright.. On the east coast, GW is ideal if you want to do psychoanalytic type work. Rutgers is supposed to outstanding in general. The VA consortium is also very good, but both have very tough research requirements. GW does not, so if you're into psychodynamic therapy and you hate research, take a good look at GW. CW Post in Long Island is supposed to be excellent for those who want to work with the severely and persistently mentally ill. Univ of Denver's PsyD program is supposed to very good (pretty psychodynamic as well i believe).. I've had friends from GASPP - good feedback.. Had a Harvard psych professor tell me he thought MSPP was decent. I'd avoid the programs that are free-standing professional schools if possible but, if you can't gain acceptance into one of the University PsyD programs, you can still do very well from a professional free-standing school. I know some Argosy students on the east coast are very gifted and have done well. Apply to many and see what you like at the interviews.

Originally Posted by leikcaj

With all the talk of diploma mills, can anyone give me a good idea of which PsyD programs out there are actually well-respected? So far, my sense is that Baylor, Rutgers, and Virginia Consortium are way up there how about Pepperdine/George Washington etc?

Also, it's quite clear that PhD programs are looking for students with interests that "fit" a particular professor. How about PsyD programs? What do they tend to look for? Previous clinical work experience (and how do you get that if you don't have the qualification the the first place... does volunteering at a inpatient psych ward help for example)?

Hard and fast rule to avoid bad Psy.D. programs. Look at all the fully funded Psy.D. programs, they are every bit as competitive as a full on Ph.D. program. I did interview at Baylor, and was turned down, primarily because of a lack of clinical experience. So if you are aiming for a Psy.D. get that clinical experience along with some research experience.

They do have a different emphasis but they are rigorous, and although it might sound a little elitest, I consider a Psy.D. from Baylor or Rutgers a world apart from one earned at Forrest or Argosy.

Schools that are degree mills often have very flexible admission criteria, huge incoming class sizes, high debt loading, and horrible attrition rates. This is not to say that a bright person going to Forrest or Argosy cannot get a competent education, they are just putting themselves at a disadvantage compared to their peers in more rigorous and selective programs.

I was despondent after not making it in my first go around and almost went for the low hanging fruit. I am glad I didn't! I was talked out of it by a Ph.D. clinical psychologist who was the gate keeper to an APA internship that I had my eye on prior to getting into a Ph.D. program (yes, I was planning that far ahead.) He emphatically stated that they had no interest in Psy.D.'s from professional schools.

Mark

One thing: "Degree Mill" is typically a term that applies to schools where you essentially pay a bunch of money to get a diploma based on life experience. No apa-approved programs would fall under that. So, I don't think it's justifiable to equate professional school programs (which I think are bad for the continuation of our profession an our own well-being, but not bad for individual students who make informed decisions to attend) with diploma mills.

Originally Posted by JockNerd

One thing: "Degree Mill" is typically a term that applies to schools where you essentially pay a bunch of money to get a diploma based on life experience. No apa-approved programs would fall under that. So, I don't think it's justifiable to equate professional school programs (which I think are bad for the continuation of our profession an our own well-being, but not bad for individual students who make informed decisions to attend) with diploma mills.

We will have to disagree on this, there are a few at the bottom end of the spectrum that come very close to just that. While it's not based on life experience the bar is set rather low at some of these schools. I can appreciate the subtle difference that you are getting at but I still believe you cannot compare Forrest Institute of Professional Psychology with Baylor or Rutgers in a favorable light. The APPIC numbers tell the truth.

Argosy Santa Ana: 45.5% Match
Forrest: 59% Match

Baylor: 89% Match
Rutgers: 92.6% Match

Non-APA programs faired the worst! (Duh, of course.)

Walden
17% Match Clinical
12% Match for Counseling

Now if that does not send a loud and clear message, something else to remember is that the internships that Baylor and Rutgers students apply to are often more competitive than the ones being applied to by graduates from Forrest and Argosy - Santa Ana.

To be fair not all Argosy or other professional programs are that bad.

Argosy - Hawaii matched 80%. <-The only Argosy program to do this well!
GA School of Prof. Psychology was a respectable 86% match rate.

If you are having trouble evaluating programs... look at the match rates, they will help give you a better perspective on how students fair in the "real" world. As the internship selection process is a function of how valuable internship sites consider your educational credentials.

I was in the same situation in trying to evaluate programs, and yes, there are plenty of Ph.D. programs that did worse for internship placement than some professional programs.

Mark

http://www.appic.org/downloads/APPIC...06_by_Univ.pdf

Comparing a PsyD to a PHD? Don't get stuck on the "brand" name of your soap. as you will not be "cleaner" at the end of your shower!


As you probably already know...things learned in school and from books are contrived and predictable ....a far cry from sitting in front of someone who will throw a curve ball at you on a regular basis (the patient). The most important part of your education and clinical development will come from the quality, generosity and compassion of your clinical supervisors.

Please remember that personality style of the PHD researcher is often very different than the PsyD practitioner. No matter which you are, when you find yourself sitting in front of a patient with significant impairments, with possible suicidal/homicidal acting out behaviors, your only interest in research will be what is going produce the result of keeping them safe. You will feel like a little ant carrying a very large piece of bread due to the seriousness of your position. Can you hold this kind of anxiety? Can you find hope and instill it in your patient? Will you be able to use your intuition, clinical skills, and compassion while remembering the laws and ethics required of you? Can you make a solid decision you can stand behind in a court of law? Will you be able to sleep wondering if you made the correct decision? These are the strenghts you will need to do this job and these are the gifts your clinical supervisors will give you. If you don’t think you have this kind of fortitude….or you cannot sit in front of your clinical supervisor and bare your soul while sitting through a critique of every word you said to a client in session, please just choose another profession and stop worrying about which degree to get!

Research you say? Your need to be published or validated by an establishment that will only pay you $45,000.00 a year will be of little interest for most of your career unless you are one of the angels that serve our community in that capacity. Unfortunately, being published will not save your client and will not help you to take care of yourself and your family at the end of a rough day. Yes I love research and my dissertation had 104 pages of stats…SO WHAT!

Let us not forget the importance of research and continue to honor those that want to do it t as it furthers our overall goal as a profession. Yes you may always have an affinity for research….especially if you are looking for an empirically validated treatment, but if you didn’t know the treatment before you got in front of the above patient, you are fresh out of luck! In other words, iread- read- read- everyone’s research constantly until your eyes hurt. Doing research should be a choice and should not be MANDATED by someone who “feels” you need it (FYI-these folks may or may not be the same folks sitting in front of significantly impaired patients each day).

The idea that clinical practitioners need to have any focus on research is like splitting the baby in half! Please do not concern yourself with this silly dialog as it will keep you from manifesting your highest self and achievements. Instead, follow your idea of what you want to accomplish and choose a series of small goals that will serve as stepping stones across the river to your goal. If you sit quietly and meditate on your attraction to this helping profession, you may discover that raising the consciousness of humanity just might BE the goal… So please, if you have any research on raising consciousness, increasing empathy, and helping others to find compassion…or if you want to do this kind of research, please do it, share it, present it...and if you want to lift ONE SOUL AT A TIME OUT OF A VERY DARK ABYSS please I applaud you as well. For those of you who want to reach the masses and change the political or emotional landscape....go for a media career. Nothing should stand in your way! No matter what your goal it is valid and we need you. Look around you and see that we need you now. AND WHEN YOU FIND YOURSELF IN FRONT OF YOUR PATIENT PLEASE REMEMBER ON VERY IMPORTANT THING….BE LIKE WATER NOT LIKE WOOD

Originally Posted by PsyDgreatdegree

Please remember that personality style of the PHD researcher is often very different than the PsyD practitioner.

I think that main difference is not in what seems to be popping up this most in this conversation. Yes, the PsyD and the PhD are different degrees. In some cases there are different ideaologies as well. Yes, some PhDs look down on some PsyDs some of the time. Yes, some PsyDs look down on PhDs some PhDs for "being researchers."

I am a PhD clinician. My primary focus is on helping people from a clinical perspective. Yes, I know how to read research, perform research, write grants, teach classes, do program evalation...blah blah.

With that all being said, I have worked with both PsyDs and PhDs that are stellar clinicians and those of both degrees who are a discredit to the profession.

For students, the main difference between a PhD and a PsyD comes simple down to money. PERIOD.

Based upon my own experience and in my humble opinion I offer the following.

The average professional PsyD program is very very expensive. The schools are profit-based and are interested in having many students attend. The more students the better income. As a result, the admissions standards for most PsyDo programs tend to be a little less competitive. I think the average is about every 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 is accepted. There are some very dedicated and very accomplished faculty at these schools. The drawback is that classes are often bigger, you have less time with the professors, and less overall support to get you through. As a result, you must be very self-reliant. PsyD students are exposed to clinical work, assessment and some research. Yes, there are difference in all programs. I would say the average debt I have heard for PsyD student is around 100K to 200K. There seems to be more difficulty in internship placement due to the lack of personalized "service" from professors.

The average PhD program will not cost you a dime in tuition. The schools are not profit based and as a result, can admit few PhD students. The students often end up costing the University money. Most Universities can afford to have about 4-9 students come in each year. Because students are funded with both a monthly stipend (average $1K a month), and waived tuition they are much more competitive. I would say the average acceptance is 1 out of every 20 to 30 students that apply. PhD students get exposure to lots of clinical work (I spent about 20 hours per week on practicum), research/statistics, program evaluation, assessment, and teaching. Classes are very small and you start and finish the program with the same group of students. Professors are often more available as they need you to work as research slaves to them (Many unpaid hours of research). Most PhD students are straight through students meaning they have never worked in the "outside" world. Internship placement rates are very high, typically everyone in a class with get matched. This is partially due to professors knowing other people at the internship sites. Average debt for a PhD student is about 40K or so. It could be more if you have no external support and can't live on 1K a month. But, that is living expenses, not school expenses.

So, make your decision based upon economics as well. You do not want to bankrupt yourself before you even begin your career. PhD vs PsyD is not really about practice vs research. I chose the PhD because I wanted exposure to research, how to produce and how to evaluate. Exposure to research teaches you how to think empirically when you are working with a clinical population. I also wanted the teaching experience. I also didn't want the debt.

I'm not here to debate which one is better, because neither one is any better. What is most important is what you put into your education...that is what will come out when you are sitting with your Patients. They are the ones that will evaluate your education.

Originally Posted by Markp

Hard and fast rule to avoid bad Psy.D. programs. Look at all the fully funded Psy.D. programs, they are every bit as competitive as a full on Ph.D. program. I did interview at Baylor, and was turned down, primarily because of a lack of clinical experience. So if you are aiming for a Psy.D. get that clinical experience along with some research experience.

They do have a different emphasis but they are rigorous, and although it might sound a little elitest, I consider a Psy.D. from Baylor or Rutgers a world apart from one earned at Forrest or Argosy.

Schools that are degree mills often have very flexible admission criteria, huge incoming class sizes, high debt loading, and horrible attrition rates. This is not to say that a bright person going to Forrest or Argosy cannot get a competent education, they are just putting themselves at a disadvantage compared to their peers in more rigorous and selective programs.

I was despondent after not making it in my first go around and almost went for the low hanging fruit. I am glad I didn't! I was talked out of it by a Ph.D. clinical psychologist who was the gate keeper to an APA internship that I had my eye on prior to getting into a Ph.D. program (yes, I was planning that far ahead.) He emphatically stated that they had no interest in Psy.D.'s from professional schools.

Mark

Far too many people depend on the "prestige" of a school to determine their future success. No doubt online programs are suspect simply because you lack the support that faculty can offer. However, any program, including Forest, offers not only classes on research design, stats, and opportunities to publish and present at conferences, but also the guidance needed to do accomplish these well. This is what you get from an APA approved school. At the end of the day, how well you do or your success is in your hands. I spoke with the Navy's top psychologist who leads the board that selects interns. He clearly states that doing well at an "average school" (i.e. Forest) is better than doing average at a "great" school (perhaps Baylor). Furthermore, select a school that is known for something. Forest has a top Forensics and Neuropsych. program. Dr. Denney is the President of the National Academy of Neuropsychology (NAN) and professor at Forest. The staff is split evenly between Ph.D's and Psy.D's, with all being board certified in their respective fields.

Case and point: Don't allow you're pride over prestige guide your life decisions. If it does, what does that say about your clinical skills? Finally, if provided with the correct resources and opportunities (a clinic to practice, community contacts, research opportunities), a school is what YOU make of it.

Yes. I go to Forest.

Originally Posted by leikcaj

With all the talk of diploma mills, can anyone give me a good idea of which PsyD programs out there are actually well-respected? So far, my sense is that Baylor, Rutgers, and Virginia Consortium are way up there how about Pepperdine/George Washington etc?

Also, it's quite clear that PhD programs are looking for students with interests that "fit" a particular professor. How about PsyD programs? What do they tend to look for? Previous clinical work experience (and how do you get that if you don't have the qualification the the first place... does volunteering at a inpatient psych ward help for example)?

I'm also interested in the GW PsyD program. In other postings, people have mentioned that GW's match rates are low. But if you look at GW's website, the APPIC and APA matches have been increasing every year. In 2006, there were 95% APPIC matches and 78% APA matches. Are those good numbers for a PsyD program? It seems as if the school is relatively young (opened in 1999) and is slowly developing more prestige and success over the years.

Are there any GW PsyD students who can write about their experiences? Nobody really mentions GW on the forum. Is there a reason for that? What is their reputation? Please do not hesitate to be straight-forward! Your honesty is appreciated!

Gw ???????

Here is a link to all of the state licensing boards and related information: http://www.asppb.org/about/boardContactStatic.aspx

Originally Posted by leikcaj

With all the talk of diploma mills, can anyone give me a good idea of which PsyD programs out there are actually well-respected? So far, my sense is that Baylor, Rutgers, and Virginia Consortium are way up there how about Pepperdine/George Washington etc?

Hi, you have a good list started already, Pepperdine is very expensive but they do have a good program.
In terms of PsyD programs they are going to be very hit or miss, I can mention a few programs that are better in than most in CA although all will be more expensive tuition wise than a Ph.D
Pepperdine
Stanford Consortium- look out for $
Biola-Rosemead
Antioch University, Santa Barbara and New England
Fuller-
If you are about Psychoanalysis
it might also be worth at least glancing at Wright
I sugget you check out class size, cost, APA involvement, and Orientation of the programs you are looking at. Find a school you feel comfortable in, tiny classes? Cohorts? Research? Practice? good luck
[/QUOTE]
Also, it's quite clear that PhD programs are looking for students with interests that "fit" a particular professor. How about PsyD programs? What do they tend to look for? Previous clinical work experience (and how do you get that if you don't have the qualification the the first place... does volunteering at a inpatient psych ward help for example)?[/QUOTE]

PsyD programs are going to interested in experiences with human contact- if that means a clinic, a suicide hotline.. etc. At the same time a research background almost never goes a miss. They are looking for well rounded individuals with a good presence, and relevant experiences. The best programs would prefer you are a driven student with at least a decent GPA to stand behind. They may also request writing samples and life experiences that steered you into the line of mental health work.
-Hope this is helpful

What about earnings? I realize that a PhD you are often paid to do and a PsyD is something one pays for, but what about the ten year projected earnings for each? Are they equivalent? I have not been able to find sufficient information about this. Perhaps it is because there is no difference?

It is the same licensure, which in regard to insurance reimburses at the same level.

Originally Posted by Mace

Answer: Ph.D = a stronger research focus
Psy.D = a stronger clinical focus

As a result PsyD's are generally not involved in academia and usually have a solely clinical practice (as opposed to Phd's who may often split their time between a practice and doing research at a university.)

No, I have to say that I disagree with that assertion. Psy.D's are extensively trained in research. It's true, there's not as heavy of a focus on research in a Psy.D program versus a Ph.D program, but Psy.D's still receive a lot of training in research. Also, there are quite a few Psy.D's in academia. So I really disagree with your assertion that Psy.D's are not generally involved in academia. I personally know a lot of Psy.D's who work full-time in the field and teach part-time as an associate professor, etc. There are some Psy.D's in full-time academic positions. It's not real common, but there are some Psy.D's in the field who spend most their time doing some type of research. So having a Psy.D degree DOES NOT prevent you from entering the world of psychology research. Don't let anybody tell you that it does!

To make yourself a well rounded Psy.D student I highly recommend that you make some research presentations at a few conventions as a student. A lot of internship sites are looking for students who have at least some experience doing some research and presenting their findings. Most Psy.D schools receive a good amount of grant money to send out their students to do presentations at different psychology conventions around the country. To make yourself competitive as a Psy.D student against all the Ph.D students competing for internship sites you really need to make a few research presentations. If you don't like speaking in public that's fine, even a few poster presentations at a convention will make you more competitive for an internship.

Also, some of the comments about what schools are more pretigious then others are correct, especially PsiKo's comments. With Psy.D programs it's really tough to say that one school is necessarily more presitigious then another, because the APA pretty much sets the standard for all schools across the board as far as the academic curriculum is concerned that is needed to earn your degree. However, when it comes to prestige you defnitely want to go to a school that is APA certified with their program, there's no question about that. An APA internship site really isn't as important. As a matter of fact, I think only the State of Mississippi requires their clinical psychologists to have an APA internship in order to get a license. Be that as it may, if you're smart enough and have the connections to get accepted into an Ivy League clinical psychology doctoral program, then go for it! Having an Ivy League name attached to your degree definitely doesn't hurt.

If it means anything.....the information that you have just posted is very valuable and timely. I am finishing a Masters in Counseling--Marriage and Family Therapy....I have been torn between the PsyD and the PhD program. I really love research and after seeing the need for effective cross-cultural research/best practices in our field with diverse populations, I have been leaning in that direction...which of course means an extra year in school. Has anyone here made that same transition?

PsiKo made a great point about clinicians being self-made.

There has been headway for PsyD's in academia....but it is still very much PhD heavy. If you know you want to be in academia, go for the PhD. I am a strong supporter of the PsyD, but from what i've been told....it is an uphill battle in academia if you want tenure with a PsyD. It happens, more frequently as of late (i've been told), but why deal with that extra stuff? As for APA-Acred.....DEFINITELY only look at APA-acreditted programs. You will really short yourself if you go any other way. The same thing is true with internships.

In the end, it comes down to what you want from your degree. Your 'learning' is a collection of classwork, research, supervision, internship, post-doc, etc. I know some great clinicians who came from top-level programs, and other equally great clinicians who came from middle of the road programs. I think it is up to the invidual to make their education worthwhile.

-t

Hey guys,

I'm actually in my first year of a PsyD program right now... at John F. Kennedy University in California. The reason why I chose this was because I did research in my undergrad and absolutely grew cynical over it. I have a huge problem with some psychological research and I found it hard to find universities in Canada (where I'm from) that had research areas that I could focus on for a few years.

I'd be happy to answer anyone's questions about the PsyD program. The important thing here is if you want to go into academia, PhD is the way for you. If you care about practicing, either one is good. I love the practical emphasis on the PsyD... I'm in my first year and already we're required 216 hours in a clinical setting.

Originally Posted by CanadianV

Hey guys,

I'm actually in my first year of a PsyD program right now... at John F. Kennedy University in California. The reason why I chose this was because I did research in my undergrad and absolutely grew cynical over it. I have a huge problem with some psychological research and I found it hard to find universities in Canada (where I'm from) that had research areas that I could focus on for a few years.

I'd be happy to answer anyone's questions about the PsyD program. The important thing here is if you want to go into academia, PhD is the way for you. If you care about practicing, either one is good. I love the practical emphasis on the PsyD... I'm in my first year and already we're required 216 hours in a clinical setting.

Do they have a good student loan system in Canada?

Updated Link: http://www.lemoyne.edu/OTRP/otrpreso...nolf07psyd.pdf

-t

I am curious about your overall feedback on the program at JFK. I have applied for the fall of 07 and have an interview coming up in two days...

Hey CanadianV,

I know you posted the blog about being in a Psy.D. program a while ago, but that just means you have all the more experience in the program at this point so i have a question for you? At John F. Kennedy U., what are some of the most important criteria they consider when evaluating applications? I am going to be an undergrad junior this fall '08, and i have done ALOT of reading, reseraching, and talking to people about how to plan for graduate school so i know the general important criteria like letters of reccomendation, GPA, GRE scores, research experience, etc., but could you elaborate on any of that based on your experiences? And, I don't want to ask you anything too personal, but could you tell me what your undergrad GPA, GRE scores, reserach/clinical experience looked like and what kinds of programs you were accepted to? If you don't feel comfortable saying any of that info its cool and i understand. It would just be nice to hear some specifics of someone who actually got into a doctoral program.

Thanks alot for your help!

Hi There

Are you still around? I know you posted this a long time ago, but I'm trying to research PsyD programs and would like to ask you about yours specifically.

Thanks!

KrisBee

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

PsiKo made a great point about clinicians being self-made.

There has been headway for PsyD's in academia....but it is still very much PhD heavy. If you know you want to be in academia, go for the PhD. I am a strong supporter of the PsyD, but from what i've been told....it is an uphill battle in academia if you want tenure with a PsyD. It happens, more frequently as of late (i've been told), but why deal with that extra stuff? As for APA-Acred.....DEFINITELY only look at APA-acreditted programs. You will really short yourself if you go any other way. The same thing is true with internships.

In the end, it comes down to what you want from your degree. Your 'learning' is a collection of classwork, research, supervision, internship, post-doc, etc. I know some great clinicians who came from top-level programs, and other equally great clinicians who came from middle of the road programs. I think it is up to the invidual to make their education worthwhile.

-t

APA accreditation is huge for the school you attend - don't even look at non-APA ones. for internship, not as important. I've noticed that if you want to work for the federal government or at a prestigious university, then it's smart to focus on an APA internship as well b/c they require it (feds definitely do - VA hospitals that is, federal prisons are not as stringent).

*edit*

Thanks T4C and MarkP for your advice! i guess i will have to ask them for two different versions. The thing is, i want to do a mix of research and clinical work... so i feel like both a PhD and a research oriented (relatively research oriented) psyD would both allow me to pursue my interests... even though the research road will be harder with a psyd.

thanks !! hopefully this helps others with the same question

Here is a useful overview on clinical psychology, counseling, etc.

-t

Hello everyone

Could somebody please post the exact distinctions between PsyD and PhD degrees, instead of referring to research / no research only differences?

It would be helpful to understand what one can exactely do (specifically) with either degree.

Thanks

Originally Posted by psychometric

Hello everyone

Could somebody please post the exact distinctions between PsyD and PhD degrees, instead of referring to research / no research only differences?

It would be helpful to understand what one can exactely do (specifically) with either degree.

Thanks

Hmmmm.... well.... the PhD (Boulder model) degree tends to focus on performing research and prepares one for a career in academia, while a PsyD (Vail model) tends to train people for clinical work.


Sorry to break it to you, but research/ no research is a BIG difference between the degrees. Granted, there is a lot of gray area between certain programs, it really boils down to practice vs. research.

Originally Posted by JR in SB

Hmmmm.... well.... the PhD (Boulder model) degree tends to focus on performing research and prepares one for a career in academia, while a PsyD (Vail model) tends to train people for clinical work.

Sorry to break it to you, but research/ no research is a BIG difference between the degrees. Granted, there is a lot of gray area between certain programs, it really boils down to practice vs. research.

I don't think it is that clear cut because many Psy.Ds have research requirements, though some are more stringent than others. When I was considering programs, I was very weary of any program that didn't have a formal research requirement, as even as a consumer of research (which is what Psy.Ds were designed to be), it is important to understand the research process, and the best way to do that is to have experience DOING it. You obviously don't have to do it as a career, but I think it is really important to have done some research during training, and have it formally evaluated.

-t

Norcross and colleagues conducted a survey of all PsyD programs a few years ago and offer this very excellent overview of programs.

http://www.liu.edu/cwis/CWP/clas/psy...toral/psyd.pdf

I came across this article several months ago and it helped me realize that some PsyDs do offer funding. Article contains a list of all PsyD programs then in existence (2004) including the year they became APA accredited.

I've been meaning to update this thread....so here is the first of many links I'll be adding in the coming months.

Information about the Armed Services Health Professionals Scholarship Program (HPSP): http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=492874

I like doing research but I don’t really want to work in academic setting at least not full time. I would want to be more of a private or group practice clinical psychologist. Not that I would dislike teaching part time or night classes but not full time. But I would rather focus on building my own private clinical practice. I am thinking I would be better off with a PhD. than a PsyD? What do you think?

I am about to start my second year at a free standing PsyD program in the Chicago area. I have been very impressed with the program and the professors. My school's average class size for PsyD students is about 40 opposed to some of the other programs in the area that have close to 100 (and have a lot more faculty as well). I agree that the PsyD programs don't help their reputation by letting in so many. I feel that many of the students I am class with are bright and motivated. At the same time, there are too many students who, I feel, are not motivated and are not going to be successful i.e. seem to be the same students who haven't gotten placements for the 1st round of practicum. What's sad is that these people may not even terminate with a masters and will still be in some real debt.

Originally Posted by Toto99

I am about to start my second year at a free standing PsyD program in the Chicago area. I have been very impressed with the program and the professors. My school's average class size for PsyD students is about 40 opposed to some of the other programs in the area that have close to 100 (and have a lot more faculty as well). I agree that the PsyD programs don't help there reputation by letting in so many. I feel that many of the students I am class with are bright and motivated. At the same time, there are too many students who, I feel, are not motivated and are not going to be successful i.e. seem to be the same students who haven't gotten placements for the 1st round of practicum. What's sad is that these people may not even terminate with a masters and will still be in some real debt.

I too go to a great PsyD program in Missouri. I haven't had a single class with over 30 students or so. My school is fairly selective for a Psy.D program. They accepted about 20% of the students who applied last year.

I have been licensed as a psychologist in Florida for four years.
My school offered both Ph.D. and Psy.D., the difference being tons more statistics and more research design courses for the Ph.D. When I first started grad school, I was in a Ph.D. program. I felt smug and superior to the Psy.D. students. Eventually, when I realized that I did not want to do research and really want to be the consumer of others' research to be a great clinician, I switched programs. What I have since discovered is that the Psy.D. is a highly respected degree; that being a good therapist is an art informed by scientific research; that many great researchers have absolutely no clinical skills; and that my school, despite my initial misgivings, since it is a professional school which has a big class, really did provide me with a truly great education in how to be a good psychologist.

The decision between Ph.D. and Psy.D. should be based on whether or not you want to do research or whether you want to be a clinician, and not on your perception of which is more prestigious. because if that is the case, you are going to psych school for the wrong reasons.

My school offered both Ph.D. and Psy.D., the difference being tons more statistics and more research design courses for the Ph.D. When I first started grad school, I was in a Ph.D. program. I felt smug and superior to the Psy.D. students. Eventually, when I realized that I did not want to do research and really want to be the consumer of others' research to be a great clinician, I switched programs. What I have since discovered is that the Psy.D. is a highly respected degree; that being a good therapist is an art informed by scientific research; that many great researchers have absolutely no clinical skills; and that my school, despite my initial misgivings, since it is a professional school which has a big class, really did provide me with a truly great education in how to be a good psychologist.

I am fairly certain I know which program you're talking about and I'm sure you dd get a good clinical education. However, your distinction perpetuates a myth that has already been repeatedly addressed in this thread, the idea that if you want to be a clinician you should get a PsyD and if you want to be a researcher you should get a PhD. Further, mired in the distinction between PsyD and PhD is the professional school issue. On a proportional basis, professional schools make up the preponderance of PsyD programs and a small percentage of PhD programs. So, with a few exceptions, pursuing a PsyD necessarily means attending a professional school with all of the financial pitfalls and other issues that entails.

The decision between Ph.D. and Psy.D. should be based on whether or not you want to do research or whether you want to be a clinician, and not on your perception of which is more prestigious. because if that is the case, you are going to psych school for the wrong reasons.

The decision between a PhD and a PsyD should be based on money, program resources (faculty, community, etc. . .), and future job prospects. It is a mistake for an incoming student to go in with the attitude of, "I want nothing to do with research." Research is a necessary piece of educating a good doctoral level clinician. If you want nothing to do with research, you have no business getting a doctorate in my opinion. Both degrees lead you to a license in clinical psychology. One does so, theoretically, with less debt. Also, please look at the APPIC numbers. PhD students on average reported more clinical hours than PsyD students going into internship.

At a good PsyD program (e.g., Rutgers) and at a good PhD program, you are going to learn how to do research and you're going to learn how to be a clinician. I would hate to see a student with reasonable credentials choose to go to an unfunded PsyD program over a funded PhD program because they think that PsyD = clinical work and PhD = research. Both degrees are in clinical psychology. The PhD is not in experimental psychology. Please, if you are a prospective student, don't limit yourself with this ridiculous dichotomy. There are plenty of funded non-professional school PhD programs that offer a good balance of clinical and research training.

POI= Professor of Interest right?

I read many posts on this board that talk about POIs and how to get the attention of them so they will select you, etc. Do you have POI when you applying to a PsyD or is it more like applying to college where you just apply to the general program.

I am only interested in the PsyD degree at this time (I only want to be a child psychologist working in a private practice, school setting and/or agency setting.)

I am getting confused about this POI stuff.

Also, I am being a research assistant this summer as well as (hopefully) working in a Crisis Center. Should I emphasize my research experience in my PsyD application or will they not care?

My top choices are Widener, Rutgers, IUP, and Yeshiva.

Originally Posted by ladysky61

POI= Professor of Interest right?

I read many posts on this board that talk about POIs and how to get the attention of them so they will select you, etc. Do you have POI when you applying to a PsyD or is it more like applying to college where you just apply to the general program.

I am only interested in the PsyD degree at this time (I only want to be a child psychologist working in a private practice, school setting and/or agency setting.)

I am getting confused about this POI stuff.

Also, I am being a research assistant this summer as well as (hopefully) working in a Crisis Center. Should I emphasize my research experience in my PsyD application or will they not care?

My top choices are Widener, Rutgers, IUP, and Yeshiva.

You can still have a POI when applying to PsyD programs. Generally, instead of this individual being someone you wish to do research with (though this certainly CAN be the case, particularly at PsyD programs that emphasize research) the POI is a mentor who has a high level of expertise in an area that you may wish to gain experience in for your practice/research/whatever the case may be.

Also, please emphasize your research interests as this is a part of you and the PsyD programs (especially Widener and Rutgers, not sure about the other two) will want to see. Widener and Rutgers value research experience in their prospective PsyD students.

Hello all!
I am a junior at my school right now and am trying to figure out if I want to get my MA in counseling or pursue a Psy.D. What do you suggest? I want to be some type of --right now looking at Marriage and Family. I will probably graduate with a 3.3-3.5 range (undergrad). ANY and all suggestions would be very much appreciated!

p.s. I've heard that the Psy.D program takes 3-5 years.. is that true? Is it given as much acknowledgement as a Ph.D? I am not interested in research, so I am thinking Psy.D is the program for me. Thanks everyone!

Cell - I would suggest you read through this thread and some threads with similar titles that talk about the different degrees.

You first need to figure out what you want to be doing and where you want to be working. Masters' level clinicians cannot practice independently in all states, and there are some states in which they cannot be licensed at all.

Originally Posted by Cell3207

I am not interested in research, so I am thinking Psy.D is the program for me.

Then most of us would suggest that you not get a doctorate in psychology at all. Research is the foudation of this dicipline, even in the psy.d model. It was never designed for people who have no interest in research. The Vail model of training was orginally designed to provide more clinical experience, not neccasarily neglect research. All psychologists are scientists (ph.d or psy.d) and any good clinician approaches their clincial work with a scientific mindset and is informed of the literature. If one does not have at least some natural curiousity about the science and research underlying the clinical activities that they will be engaging in, then I would argue that they should not pursue a doctorate on psychology.

The objective of most Psy D's should be state licensure and practice. The research requirement under the Vail model makes little sense. Program prestige only matters to a Psy D insofar as it will provide future referrals for jobs or for a practice. Licensing exams can be studied for with the help of any program and/or outside materials.

I have a great deal of research experience and many publications. That means squat. Research is all about funding, which is a glamour game akin to being a Hollywood star. It has nothing to do with anything rational. Research funding is a 'cult of personality' phenomenon.

If you want a career in Psych., you best focus on helping people and qualifying for the appropriate credentials to do that best. Program ratings do not correlate well with the best helpers.

kirandeep, I moved your posts HERE because I thought you'd get more input in a seperate thread.