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| Otolaryngology For discussions related to the training and professional field of Otolarygnology ("ENT") | RSS: |
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#1 |
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Junior Member
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just wanted to get the opinions of the attendings here.
What are some important questions to ask when interviewing for a private practice job? I have asked many of the generic questions, just wondering if there are some important ones I have left out. What is a good way to determine how busy a group is without asking about their income? should you ever ask to see the groups financial info? How can you determine if a group wants to hire you because they are busy or if it is to decrease their overhead? or does that even happen? thanks for the help |
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#2 | |||
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Senior Member
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How many patients does the average doc in your practice see in a day? How much time do you typically book new patients for? Established patients? How much marketing do you do? Is this market competitive? e.g. Is there more than 1 ENT per 30,000 population? How many patients do you need to see in a day to break even at the salary at which you're starting me? In other words, they should know the avg reimbursement they get per patient (that can be further broken down into the type of visit: est, new, consult, inpt consult, pre-op, etc) and should know how many you need to see to cover the cost of hiring you. If they don't, that's a warning sign that they're not in their books enough. Sure. Most won't give it. I won't. I'll show them our overhead percentage (53%) of which I'm very proud. I won't show them gross collections, net revenue, or anything else. You can generally tell by the growth of the practice, the quality of equipment (particularly computers, phones, waiting room furniture, scopes--distal chip, etc), and how much they market or don't market. Quote:
If I am not busy enough, I'm not going to hire a new physician and have them take some of my lucrative new patients away in order to build their practice. That's giving them money and taking it out of my pocket. It doesn't make sense for a practice to hire a new physician if they're not ready and actually needy. Historically, the lowest overhead offices were the ones that had 3-4 docs. That's changing rapidly this day in age. Now the lowest overhead usually goes to the group with the largest number of docs and the most extensive use of non-physician income earners--audiologists, allergy nurses, aestheticians, etc. EHR's have changed the game--you can add docs without needing as many FTE's as with paper charts. Look at it this way. Any square foot of space for which you're paying that isn't generating income, is losing it. Any employee that doesn't bill and generate money, is taking it away from you. Use those 2 rules and you'll quickly figure out how to minimize your overhead. |
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#3 |
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Junior Member
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As usual, very helpful info.
Two other questions. What should a private practice ENT expect to bill after 5 years of practice? Not interested in collections, etc. Just curious about what you should expect to bill grossly once your practice is in full swing. Also, is overhead ,when mentioned as a percentage, an actual percent of your net collections? or your gross billings? |
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#4 | |
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Senior Member
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Overhead is usually expressed as a percentage of collections. It is a number that can be deceptive as revenue can vary significantly from one month to the next but expenses are much more fixed for a medical practice. |
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#5 | ||
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Senior Member
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I try not to see more than 28 pt's in a day. I make a great living doing that and if I see more (there are some in this area that will see 40), I could make a large chunk more money but I don't think I'd enjoy my life as much, I don't think patients would like me as much, and I certainly don't think I could teach my patients the way I think they should be taught. Quote:
Clear as mud? |
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#6 |
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Junior Member
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The reason I asked about gross billings is, I have heard people say that they collect x% of what they bill. So, it was my impression that if a guy bills 1 mil, collects 50% of that, and then has 50% overhead- he made 250K. Correct? or way off??
I realize that there is a lot of variability in collections because of a multitude of reasons. But on average, what then would you expect to collect after 5 years of practice. If this is too general of a question feel free not to answer, I am simply trying to get an idea of what to look for when I talk to practices next year and they are showing me their finance info. I am using this as a relative gauge (amongst other things) as to how busy the practice is, and how successful they are. |
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#7 | |
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Senior Member
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Ask how much overhead each partner pays. Actual dollar number, not a percentage of anything. If you want to know how busy they are then ask how many patients they see per day and how long new patients have to wait before being seen. How much after 5 years? Very difficult question that depends on a ton of factors. I know guys that make $250K and I know others in the same area that make >$1M. It all comes down to how busy you are and what you are busy with. Busy with ear tubes will put you on the lower end of the spectrum. Busy with sinus cases will put you at the higher end. Last edited by Fah-Q; 11-18-2011 at 05:53 PM. |
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#8 |
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pluggin away
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While we are talking jobs, I am in need of advice from the attendings. I'm a chief at a well-known midwest program, going on to do a peds fellowship next year, looking to join a private practice group in a big town in TX doing general/peds. I interviewed with a group of 3, expanding into a large 13000 sq. ft. space with all ancillary services minus allergy and possibly also a surgicenter to be built attached to this building. They seem busy and do alot of sinus, plastics, general. With the space, they are ready to hire one more doc.
So, I got my offer via email and am sort of bummed. I'll be the first to admit I don't have much business sense. Never needed it until now. Here's the entire offer. No clauses or anything. What do you guys think? 1. Compensation of $150k for the first year, with a $20k sign on bonus 2. $190k for the second year 3. Option to buy in the 3rd year at the price of $250k. 4. Plus a bonus of of 20% of my net profit (collected revenue minus ¼ general overhead minus my employee specific expenses). Eligible for this bonus after the first 6 months of employment. The initial bonus would be calculated based upon the first 6 months of data. 7. On call every other week until partnership. No ER call. Seems like a real low-ball offer. No mention of non-compete. The buy in thing sucks. Is that still done? Do I need to know the exact overhead in order to calculate my ability to make a bonus here? Is there a way to calculate how many patients I would need to see a day in order to get above said expenses so that I could estimate what this bonus would be like? Should I be asking for any other specific info? Any advice would be sincerely appreciated..... |
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#9 |
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Senior Member
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Where to begin.
First, don't take a salary. Just ask them to let you take home a certain percentage of your collections (this should be equal to the partners' overhead percentage). This will give you incentive to get out and attract more referrals and grow the practice rather than just taking patients from the partners. If you let them pay you a salary then they will likely lose a lot of money for the first year or maybe longer and they will always look at you with that "you owe me" kind of look. Don't fall into that trap. I know that you feel well trained and super important and that you deserve a big salary (trust me, we all felt that way too). The truth is that you are not very special and as an employee you will be very expensive. Eat what you kill. It is the most fair to everyone. The buy-in should be for real assets only. If they want $250K from you then they think their practice has $1M real assets right now. Possible but hard to believe. I suspect the buy-in includes ownership of the building. That's really the only way anyone could justify a buy-in of $250K. Don't pay them a cent for "goodwill." If you can't put your hands on it and sell it for cash tomorrow then it is not worth buying into. Call should be equally shared but you probably won't get very far with that idea. No ER call is sweet. |
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#10 |
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Senior Member
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$150K is not so bad for a desirable location and a good practice. In my research, I found that 150-200K for the first year is pretty standard for quality practices. The high $$$ guarantees are going to be for places that you most likely will not want to live ("ENT needed in scenic rural Idaho!" etc). Academics you'll make more starting out but probably less in 5 years than PP.
It depends on your own situation, but I would think very carefully before proposing what Fah-Q advocates. It takes time to build up your practice, and you are very likely not going to be seeing that many patients for the first few months. My guess is that you would almost certainly make substantially less than $150K your first year and probably more than $190K your 2nd year if you didn't take a salary. The first few months would be especially lean. Would depend on the percentage of your collections that your partners skimmed off the top too. In the end, you may come out on top, but IMO the piece of mind that comes with a guaranteed salary check outweighs any potential "you owe me" mentality down the road. I'm in my first year in a practice on salary right now and I'm certainly not slacking on marketing myself/meeting referring docs/drumming up business. I agree also that you need to find out more details on the $250K buy-in per Fah-Q's advice above. The new guy's always gonna take more call, at least you won't be in the ER apparently. |
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#11 |
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Blasted ENT Attending
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Good discussion, guys.
Always an interesting thing to learn more about what you don't have to worry about in academics. Based on this thread, I have concluded that our overhead is 99%.
__________________
+ neutropeniaboy + otolaryngology - head and neck surgery + a good traveler has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving. -Lau Tsu |
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#12 | ||||
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Senior Member
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This is the stuff I love to look at, so let's take a gander and do some math.
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Whoa. I agree with the above. You better be getting some partnership in real estate for that buy in and you better see the appraisals indicating that it's worth that much. NEVER do a good will buy-in. That's for suckers these days. ESPECIALLY if they've ever discussed selling the practice to a hospital in any near future. You'll buy in and get nothing for it. Quote:
That sucks. Totally unreasonable in my region. You're getting raped on that one in my opinion. Maybe, but probably not once you do the math. See below. Awesome. Their oversight, not yours. Don't say a word. Quote:
Ok the math. Since you're considering TX, I'll share my ballpark. If you take every encounter I had last year and divide that into my total collections, I made about $128 per encounter. That includes OR, ER (insured or not), inpt consults, pro bono for referring physicians/employees/family/friends/neighbors/etc, outpt clinic whether office new pt/est pt/post-op in global/allergy/audiology, and anything else conceivable. So how does that translate to the $150k? Assume you made $128/encounter too on avg. You'd have to have 1172 encounters to make $150k. Is that a lot of patients? Not really. It's only 22 patient encounters in a week. You're multiples less than the average ENT at that point. Assuming no overhead, you could have 6 encounters a day for a year and make more than $150k. Remember, encounters means anything from highly lucrative sinus surgery cases to nothing for a post op thyroid. So, then, it obviously boils down to overhead. Let's assume the avg private ENT 4 person single specialty practice is 50% for the sake of math (it's usually closer to 53%). Well, then just double your encounters to 12 a day and you bring in over $300k. $150k of that is gone to cover your guarantee. Of the remaining $150k, you get a 20% bonus or $30k. Let's say you're full steam, double the number of encounters again to 24/day. Now you're bringing in over $600k minus $150k to cover guarantee and then 20% of the remaining $450k as a bonus and you get $90k. Therefore, if you are seeing an avg pt volume by your second year getting the avg collection/encounter that I get, you'll make $190k in guarantee plus $90k bonus. That's pretty good for most ENT's in their second year. I'm going to guess that their overhead is not close to 50% if they have a 13,000 sq ft office, but who knows, maybe they have a savvy real estate agent. You can never ask too many questions. Can you buy into the surgicenter? Do you get a cut of hearing aid sales? Do you get a cut of allergy revenue? Who does your credentialing? Who does your insurance contracts? Who pays for your malpractice? Who pays for your marketing? Who pays for your CME? Do you get paid vacation? How much? Who pays for your health insurance? Is there any stipulation on partnership for passing the boards? Will the hospital pay for ER call if you want to take it? Hope that helps some. It's later than freak and I've been up since 4AM for a anticoagulated nose bleeder that keeps rebleeding around his pack. I'm going to bed. Feel free to check my math, it may be off with me this tired. . . Last edited by resxn; 02-17-2012 at 09:17 PM. |
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#13 |
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Senior Member
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As per usual resxn is clutch. Thanks for that break down. Nice for a student to get a feel for how to look at contracts and what questions to ask in the future when it will be vital.
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#14 |
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Blasted ENT Attending
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I'm really ENTrigued by all this. (Was that lame?)
Honestly, I think I'm going to bank this thread somewhere for future consideration if I ever leave academics. It's interesting to note some of the factors do cross over to academics, but it really does look like there is a plethora of business decision making going on here. And that further highlights why doctors can no longer survive if they run their practices under the auspices of delivering health care without ensuring fiscal responsibility. |
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#15 |
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Senior Member
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Very thorough analysis by Dr. Resxn as usual. Here are some further things to consider.
Resxn has a mature practice and seems to do very well. Earboy's new practice will look very different in the first 2 years and possibly longer. Let's say you decide to become an employee and take a salary. Where will your patients come from? At first they will come from your employers (the partners). So, not only are you taking patients from them but they are going to pay you to take money out of their pocket. Sound fair? What patients do you think they will give you? Big sinus cases and thyroids with Aetna? No, you will get Medicare reflux, earwax and dizziness. Good luck reaching that bonus. The other issue is your chosen subspecialty. Peds requires one thing....volume. The cases do not pay well and so you have to see a ton of kids to line up a decent OR day. You just won't have the volume in your early years to generate enough revenue to reach your bonus. Your share of the overhead will be 25%....25% of what? Their overhead is probably $100-120K per month. Who determines what employee specific expenses are attributed to you? Also, you won't have much in the way of collections for the first few months because you will not be on any insurance plans. The bonus is a mirage. A fool's errand. The goalposts will be moved. Don't fall for it. I know it sounds crazy, but the best long-term position to be in is to start under the thumb of nobody. Your friends will be taking jobs in academics or with multi-specialty groups with >$250K starting salary. You feel like you are from a good program and fellowship trained and should be getting more. Well, you will when you earn it. Try to lose the entitled mentality. I certainly had it when I started and most everyone I know had it too. It is one of those things you wish you could go back in time and punch yourself for thinking, trust me. I would tell them that you would like to share space, employees, call, etc. but don't accept a salary. Just pay them a percentage of collections and build your practice from the ground up. |
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#16 |
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pluggin away
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Thanks guys very much! Your advice is priceless. I read a book on contractual pitfalls and it doesn't touch the quality of advice you've given in this thread.
I did a bit more asking and got some more answers. Their average overhead is ~160K/month. Pretty high. That means I'd have cover 40K/month. There is a very reasonable non compete clause of 5 or 10 miles depending on if I leave voluntarily or if I am let go. The buy in is for real assets -25% of assets including the building, equipment, etc. Only caveat is that the surgicenter is a different entity as is the sleep and imaging. I would be able to get partnership in those as well but for some kind of $$$$. Health insurance is only for me and not my family which stinks. $2500/yr for CME. 3 vacation weeks per year while an employee. Overall, given the location, its not a bad deal. I have an offer to stay as faculty for a whole lot more bonus with a significantly higher salary. Only downside for me is location. What can I ask for at this point? What is reasonable? Can I ask for a higher base salary or to make sure my family could get health insurance? Can I tell them I've got a higher offer so that they may increase theirs? I think it's time to get a lawyer! |
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#17 | ||||
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Senior Member
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Their overhead is stupid high. Just stupid. In Texas??? Is their office in a luxury box in Cowboys Stadium???
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You can get a family high deductible policy for $300-400 per month. No big deal. Quote:
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Only if you want to drop several thousand dollars and increase the complexity of the situation by a factor of 3. |
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#18 | ||||
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Senior Member
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I have a little bit different spin than Fah-Q, but we agree on most.
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Goal of overhead for a 3-4 ENT private single specialty practice should be 51% or less. In other words, their monthly collections then need to be $320k+. That's pretty high too for a 3-4 person practice. Also, what are they counting as their overhead. Since you're being hired as an employee of the practice, not of the sleep lab, imaging, or the surgicenter (which requires extra to be a part of), you should not be told the total overhead for all of that. Only for the practice itself (building mortgage, payroll, equipment leases, lines of credit, utilities, malpractice, CME, etc etc). If they haven't divided those parts of the practice into separate business entities, well then that's a warning sign because in Texas, it would be stupid not to for reasons your accountant and atty can get into. If they're willing to give you those numbers, they should be willing to give you the overhead percent. Heck, they may give you gross receipts for 2011. If they do that divide it by 12 and then by put that in the denominator under 160 and you'll get the month avg overhead. If it's over 60%, they do not have an efficient business model. Karen Zupko would be all over that. They may argue it's justified saying that they have the premiere practice, busiest clinics, blah blah blah. They can still do that with a good business model. Not saying this a deal breaker, just saying you need to know what you're taking on. The world's most expensive cruise ship still looks good during the early stages of sinking. Quote:
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Definitely a point to negotiate, but Fah-Q is right about getting a plan for the rest of your family at a reasonable rate. Not bad. Covers home study course and will get you a trip to the Academy probably. Typical Quote:
Another point with which I diverge with Fah-Q. An atty is sooooooooo useful here. You can pay one about $400 to review your contract and make suggestions. You never have to let the practice know you've retained one. I can guarantee their lawyer wrote the contract they're giving you. If they didn't, the practice is really retarded. A $400 investment is a tremendously lucrative one if he gets you even $2500 more in that contract. Think of it that way. |
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#19 | |
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Senior Member
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The bigger question is why do they want to you to sign a non-compete? Here's the deal: they know you would be much better off in the long run starting your own practice. They know you will eventually figure that out. When you do figure it out they don't want you to be able to pack up and move across the street and compete with them. They insert the non-compete because they want it to be prohibitively expensive for you to make the decision in 2 years that you should have made today. They figure that you are going to move into the area anyways and they would rather have you as an employee to help them with their ridiculously high overhead and to take most of the call than as a competitor (general ENT's hate to compete against peds fellowship trained ENT's). |
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