Leaving anesthesiology, need advice

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desflurane

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Been practicing in the "real world" for a solid five years now, fully certified anesthesiologist, no fellowship. Been in a few practice settings and have never found that silver bullet combo of money, lifestyle and interesting work. Over time been growing tired of the lack of respect from all angles. Also can't deal with pushing propofol down in endo..I'd rather sell Amway. The NY Times editorial regarding CRNAs was a real wake up call for me. I am considering the r/b/a of going back and doing a pain fellowship.

My other alternatives: suck it up, cardiac, b-school. I guess I am looking for comments from people who have transitioned out of anesthesia into something else, why you did and any pros and cons. Especially would like to hear about the future of pain vs future of anesthesia.

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Been practicing in the "real world" for a solid five years now, fully certified anesthesiologist, no fellowship. Been in a few practice settings and have never found that silver bullet combo of money, lifestyle and interesting work. Over time been growing tired of the lack of respect from all angles. Also can't deal with pushing propofol down in endo..I'd rather sell Amway. The NY Times editorial regarding CRNAs was a real wake up call for me. I am considering the r/b/a of going back and doing a pain fellowship.

My other alternatives: suck it up, cardiac, b-school. I guess I am looking for comments from people who have transitioned out of anesthesia into something else, why you did and any pros and cons. Especially would like to hear about the future of pain vs future of anesthesia.

Have you tried switching to sevoflurane? ;) J/K

Sorry to hear about your frustration with the field. Does anesthesia not interest you anymore? I know some people who had dropped gas and had switched into pain. Their main reason was quality of life. They did not like taking call and having to do appy's at 2:00am. Now they have 8-5 schedules and seem very happy. They like the work however. I don't think I could do it.
 
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never found that silver bullet combo of money, lifestyle and interesting work.

I think most people's thinking goes about this the wrong way. Is anesthesia a lifestyle specialty? Of course it is. It doesn't get anymore lifestyle. It's similar to the ER. You can work 2 shifts a week if you want to and make more then 95% of working Americans. You can also leave the cushy high paying boring pp job and find some very interesting work. And try telling the average struggling college educated plus graduate degree American that working 3 days a week for 150-180k is terrible money.

For some reason everyone feels you have to fit in the box of a group of 6 working 70 hrs a week with every 6th night oncall, every 6th week off, and on every 6th weekend struggling at 350k because we used to make over 400.
 
I think most people's thinking goes about this the wrong way. Is anesthesia a lifestyle specialty? Of course it is. It doesn't get anymore lifestyle. It's similar to the ER. You can work 2 shifts a week if you want to and make more then 95% of working Americans. You can also leave the cushy high paying boring pp job and find some very interesting work. And try telling the average struggling college educated plus graduate degree American that working 3 days a week for 150-180k is terrible money.

For some reason everyone feels you have to fit in the box of a group of 6 working 70 hrs a week with every 6th night oncall, every 6th week off, and on every 6th weekend struggling at 350k because we used to make over 400.

:thumbup: Good post. I think the original poster's unhappiness comes from the constant assault on one's self esteem that is present in many, but certainly not all departments.
 
Same here. I am going back and doing critical care fellowship.
 
Same here. I am going back and doing critical care fellowship.

I thought I would do a pain fellowship after residency. I did several extra months of Pain and was very slick with the needles, etc. I decided to go into practice instead. After a few years of practice as a direct provider I came to the conclusion that I hated adult anesthesia and I didn't want to go into my own pain practice. I was the pain clinic's "golden boy" and was able to cherry pick the great pain cases in the procedure heavy clinic during residency and was going to hate routine pain clinic, followups, med refills, etc. I did a Peds anesthesia fellowship and couldn't be happier. Complex peds is certainly going to be a safe haven from CRNA solo practice for at least the duration of my career. I am in academics now at a higher than average paying hospital in a nice city where I supervise residents, fellows and CRNAs. However I still provide anesthesia solo about 25% of the time. It's a perfect balance of money:lifestyle:job satisfaction for me.
HOWEVER, I enjoy anesthesia. If you really don't, you may want to get out, but it will be very difficult to find a career that pays as well. Of course our salaries will probably go down over time. How about dental school. Drilling for dollars. Seriously.
 
Been practicing in the "real world" for a solid five years now, fully certified anesthesiologist, no fellowship. Been in a few practice settings and have never found that silver bullet combo of money, lifestyle and interesting work. Over time been growing tired of the lack of respect from all angles. Also can't deal with pushing propofol down in endo..I'd rather sell Amway. The NY Times editorial regarding CRNAs was a real wake up call for me. I am considering the r/b/a of going back and doing a pain fellowship.

My other alternatives: suck it up, cardiac, b-school. I guess I am looking for comments from people who have transitioned out of anesthesia into something else, why you did and any pros and cons. Especially would like to hear about the future of pain vs future of anesthesia.

I think that if you are willing to transition out of anesthesia, it takes a lot of the stress off. You have lots of options and the invasion of nurses into medical practice shouldn't even affect you. If you are willing to leave anesthesia today, what do you care if nurses and politicians ruin it in 5 years?

Like Narc said, you can work 2-3 days a week and make a good living. The irritating things won't build up and weigh on you so much if you work less. Better yet, you can work 2-3 days a week while attending law or business school at night. If you end up hating it, you are still current with your anesthesia skills.

Pain is probably the best option though. Most people in business or law hate their jobs and get no respect, and most don't even make all that much money. At least in pain you don't have to be anyone's employee.

Pain is the best. Is it too late to switch to a pain fellowship this year? ;)
 
Are all of us MS4s making a big mistake going into anesthesiology? Or is it more of a medicine issue? I'm willing to work hard and have my self-esteem battered around by others...a secure, well-paying job (>160k/yr) sounds really good!
 
Are all of us MS4s making a big mistake going into anesthesiology? Or is it more of a medicine issue? I'm willing to work hard and have my self-esteem battered around by others...a secure, well-paying job (>160k/yr) sounds really good!

You will find the OP's same emotional response to nearly every specialty in medicine. Read some of the threads about what people like in Anesthesiology. Read POD's post in the Club forum regarding PP in BFE. More than a thousand graduates every year are content or -gasp- even HAPPY with anesthesiology as a specialty.
 
Are all of us MS4s making a big mistake going into anesthesiology? Or is it more of a medicine issue? I'm willing to work hard and have my self-esteem battered around by others...a secure, well-paying job (>160k/yr) sounds really good!

No, you are not making a mistake if you love it.

I would rather be a wino sleeping in a cardboard box under the freeway than to be almost any other kind of doctor.
 
work part time. Can still make more than 95% of population and go have some fun. Travel. Everyday, I meet internists, peds, rads, ED and surgeons who say they would love anesthesia. grass is greener, etc.
 
Same here. I am going back and doing critical care fellowship.

youre gonna enter a world of pain worse than you aare in now with that fellowship. although its very interesting.. what the hell its only a year.
 
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No, you are not making a mistake if you love it.

I would rather be a wino sleeping in a cardboard box under the freeway than to be almost any other kind of doctor.

cmon thats exagerrating.. you couldnt see yourself doing radiology in your pjs.. or pathology.. cmon.........
 
I You can work 2 shifts a week if you want to and make more then 95% of working Americans. You can also leave the cushy high paying boring pp job and find some very interesting work.

where are you going to find a job working 2 shifts a week?

It aint that easy. this is a sellers market. full time or nothing.. you can go to the endo centers and work like that i guess but i think it may be difficult to find that at a conventional practice/hospital. How do you explain to the chief of the group that you are just starting out.. or you are not even close to retirement age but you wanna work only 2 days a week.. he will be in ahurry to hire you as opposed to a guy who refuses to take a vacation..
 
cmon thats exagerrating.. you couldnt see yourself doing radiology in your pjs.. or pathology.. cmon.........

HI there moderator - please give us a hint - what do you do?
Private or academics?
Pain, CCM, heart?
I do agree with you that anesthesia is not the worst one - but pumping it....
For the OP - do pain or CCM.
Send me a private message.
2win
 
once again I have to agree with IlDestriero-- I'm happy I'm specializing in pediatric anesthesia-- one of the few areas of anesthesia where CRNA's can't replace you in a tertiary care center where you take care of 26 week preemies, kids with crazy genetics diagnoses, pedi hearts, and the multitude of other pedi things that freak most people out-- at least for a while.The kids are often healthy and if they aren't it's not their fault. It's rewarding, and from my observation the pediatric surgeons seem to respect their pediatric anesthesia colleagues more than on the adult side and everyone works together as a team (i.e. the circulators help anesthesia through induction, anything we need during the case). I love it. But peds isn't for everyone. Sick as S#it kids from the unit, kids who arrest in the OR, kids with cancer-- not everyone's cup of tea-- can be very emotionally and pathologically draining unless you have the right personality for it.
 
My problem is that I did internal medicine before anesthesiology. I was treated with more respect from nurses and other doctors as a senior medicine resident than I am now as an attending. And I think that I am a very good anesthesiologist and an easy going person, so it is not that people don't have confidence in me or think I am a prick. I am sick of snide remarks from surgical residents and OR nurses. I am sick of asking orthopods if I can block their patients like I am begging for them to throw me a bone. I miss actually learning new things and using my brain. Anesthesia can be a pretty sweet gig for some people...but I don't think I can do it full time for the next 20-25 years. I need more stimulation. I didn't become a doctor to come to work and punch a clock...I became a doctor because I wanted to be constantly challenged. I am hoping to split my time between ICU and OR....but we shall see....

I always tell medical students that if they can think of any other specialty that they would like to do, then do it. If not...then anesthesia can be a good job.
 
OP, I feel you man, for various other reasons.
 
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I know a few people on the 7-3 no call/no late mommy track. They make about 250 and are happy that they made that choice. You could probably easily find a 51% or 75% clinical time job and get full benefits at an academic program. They need clinical people to get the job done, so they are usually open to these arrangements. You're experience can be a big selling point as most applicants are right out of training. Of course you'll have to move. I looked at a PP job that had 7 FT people and 2 1/2 time people. It worked fine for them. They were eat what you kill BTW, so pay wasn't an issue.
 
My problem is that I did internal medicine before anesthesiology. I was treated with more respect from nurses and other doctors as a senior medicine resident than I am now as an attending. And I think that I am a very good anesthesiologist and an easy going person, so it is not that people don't have confidence in me or think I am a prick. I am sick of snide remarks from surgical residents and OR nurses. I am sick of asking orthopods if I can block their patients like I am begging for them to throw me a bone. I miss actually learning new things and using my brain. Anesthesia can be a pretty sweet gig for some people...but I don't think I can do it full time for the next 20-25 years. I need more stimulation. I didn't become a doctor to come to work and punch a clock...I became a doctor because I wanted to be constantly challenged. I am hoping to split my time between ICU and OR....but we shall see....

I always tell medical students that if they can think of any other specialty that they would like to do, then do it. If not...then anesthesia can be a good job.


you knew that going in.. nobody respects anesthesiologist or even acknowledges your presence til something bad happens. thats known. The little respect part is known...... I knew that.. Thats not what bothers me.. its the lack of autonomy.. as you stated.. you dont like askin orthopods if you can block their patients.. Its a different mentality and job altogether. Anesthesia is really a service job. You have to keep your customers happy. and your customers happen to be everyone.. surgeons... pacu nurses.. crnas... holding room nurses.. all that.. otherwise you wont be successful..
 
wow. Debbie Downers out tonight. Look, find me a speciality where people are well paid, respected all around, have a good lifestyle, patients appreciate them,
colleagues applaud them, and no one ever thinks twice about leaving.

In the end, let's be real. It is NOT your job that defines you.This whole discussion is bullshi*. We are all going to die so don't mentally masterbate about every aspect your life or career. And don't whine like a little girl about how your life sucks and how unhappy you are. Look around you. Have you been watching the news lately. 1/3 of people on the planet don't have clean water. So get over yourself. Enjoy your family and go out there carpe diem. Live life. Drive a nice car, date beautiful women and drink lots of wine. Everything else will work out just fine. Trust me. Sorry for the rant.
 
Everyone in the anesthesiology forum always talks about the lack of respect. I know you're referring to respect from colleagues and hospital staff, but what about when you're walking about town. Correct me if I'm wrong, but anesthesiology sounds pretty studly to the average person you meet at a BBQ. Right? That's got to count for something.

Imagine being a dermatologist or radiologist. A lot of professional respect, but out in the real world, everyone thinks you're a beautician or you put the lead apron on people getting a dental exam. Holy sh.t that would be frustrating. Half of your social interactions would turn into some bizarre attempt at qualifying your credentials to a Subaru mechanic or sandwich artist. And we all know they'd never really believe you anyway*.

*until they saw your car, but by then it's too late, you're leaving
 
Originally Posted by Arch Guillotti
No, you are not making a mistake if you love it.

I would rather be a wino sleeping in a cardboard box under the freeway than to be almost any other kind of doctor.

maceo:
cmon thats exagerrating.. you couldnt see yourself doing radiology in your pjs.. or pathology.. cmon.........

Ahh, you missed the keyword in the above quote..... almost
 
Everyone in the anesthesiology forum always talks about the lack of respect. I know you're referring to respect from colleagues and hospital staff, but what about when you're walking about town. Correct me if I'm wrong, but anesthesiology sounds pretty studly to the average person you meet at a BBQ. Right? That's got to count for something.

*until they saw your car, but by then it's too late, you're leaving

I know I've been studying way too much when sideway's avatar made me think of an anticoagulated TEG turned backwards.
 
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Everyone in the anesthesiology forum always talks about the lack of respect. I know you're referring to respect from colleagues and hospital staff, but what about when you're walking about town. Correct me if I'm wrong, but anesthesiology sounds pretty studly to the average person you meet at a BBQ. Right? That's got to count for something.

Imagine being a dermatologist or radiologist. A lot of professional respect, but out in the real world, everyone thinks you're a beautician or you put the lead apron on people getting a dental exam. Holy sh.t that would be frustrating. Half of your social interactions would turn into some bizarre attempt at qualifying your credentials to a Subaru mechanic or sandwich artist. And we all know they'd never really believe you anyway*.

*until they saw your car, but by then it's too late, you're leaving

As a 4th year, I can tell you from my limited interactions what the responses are. Some are like, "Oh-you're-going-to-put-people-to-sleep" clueless comments. Some are like, "Oh, wow, isn't that really competitive?" A lot are like, "Oh, wow, you're going to make a lot of money". And then others just kind of look at me and smirk like I'm taking the easy way out regarding specialty difficulty/expertise. And then others are like, "Really, I thought you would do X"

The reality is that it's a mixed bag, dude. People are generally pretty clueless. I wouldn't be overly concerned with what they think. I get pretty annoyed with how they get treated in the OR, but I would rather tolerate some work-related maltreatment than have all the respect in the world as a neurosurgeon, but be working 120hrs/wk for the rest of my life.

[Guys, please don't lecture me on this last part regarding being lazy. You cannot accurately assess what kind of student I am in terms of grades/boards/etc based upon wanting to enjoy a little bit of non-medical life. It just so happens that I love the material the most and it is less demanding time-wise.]
 
As a follow up to some of your questions,

I'm in private practice, mostly ambulatory work, some OB, some healthy peds, no hearts, no heads.

I considered a peds fellowship as well but the ones in my area are ultra competitive. No thanks to critical care, just don't want to contribute to the prolongation of death.

As for what to tell the MS4's, sorry but this isn't going to be good:

I would really reconsider. Many fields face nurse encroachment but none as completely as anesthesia. In a world where everything must be done cheapest, logic has to tell you that either you will be replaced by a crna or be willing to accept that income level.

You will also be surprised once you get out of training how many d-ckheads there are on the other side of the table, ortho, general surg, GI. These were the people in the middle to bottom of your class (maybe not ortho) who are now treating you like a servant. You may think its ok now but it gets old fast.

You should also consider seriously the freedom vs autonomy factors here. I chose gas because I wanted freedom from patients, go on vacation without a beeper. There is no autonomy though, you will always work for someone else, have someone tell you when you are allowed to eat, and take a wizz, and when you are allowed to go home.

My problem was not realizing these annoyances that I saw in residency would amp up 10 fold in private practice.

I agree with many of the posts that EVERY specialty has issues and your job should be to learn what the negatives are and see if you could live with them. I didn't do that well enough and am paying the price.

Maybe I'll start a Medspa? jk:D
 
No, you are not making a mistake if you love it.

:thumbup: That goes for just about any job out there.

I would also like to add that not all groups are spineless. If our group comes across a surgeon who is consistantly counterproductive, rude and just a plain 'ol a**hole, they get put on probation and admnistration gets involved. Most of the time they learn to be a team player, but we have asked surgeons to find their own anesthesia providers to do their cases. Ultimately they leave.

I have a great time with my surgeon colleagues. We are all friends and are always doing things outside of the hospital. Together, anesthesia and surgery make up a huge force in the hospital. If we are both on the same side working for a common goal, we get respect and people listen to us.
Last weekend was the lake. The weekend before that was bowling (I know... kinda weird, but I did get over 200 and there was some pretty good competition).
 
Well you know that the smackdown is coming if I post a reply:

I find it more than a little irritating that anesthesiologists seem to complain about respect issues, lifestyle, pay, nurses, etc. and just stew over it.

I have been in practice six years, do every kind of case known to man, 100% solo/no supervision, work hard but play hard, and only twice can I recall being disrespected/questioned in that time.

Both times, by nurses, a quick, educational, and authoritative response quelled any further insubordination. Surgeons, nurses, and administrators know that when I say something, request something, order something, do something, it has a legitimate purpose and MUST be done. It is a confidence they have in my judgement and more importantly, my compassion.

Conversely, I am told regularly about how some anesthesiologists have little to no ability to make a firm decision, bounce back and forth between totally opposite treatments/decisions, speak/act like scared mice, rush out of the PACU or ICU to make a haircut appointment, talk about anything EXCEPT medicine or THEIR patient, etc.

With that backdrop, it becomes increasingly difficult to keep the lines distinguished.

These are YOUR patients, not just the surgeon's. Take ownership of your patients, your situation, your facility, and be heard. Too many expect that M.D. or D.O. acronyms on their badges will instantly afford respect or authority. With Hollywood medical vomitus on TV and in the movies creating an overgeneralized image of the lazy, incompetent, vain, self-centered, dangerous physician, the deck is stacked against you.

Don't jump up and down on the down side of an overloaded ship, throw the baggage overboard.

Get involved in every phase of every case you do. The more you do that, the faster and easier it becomes and the more indispensible you become. "Dr. CT surgeon, I spoke with your AVR, redo CABG patient last night and he has worsening cervical stenosis with OPLL diagnosed over a year ago. I am recommending full neuromonitoring for this case and will consult with his neurosurgeon on post-op followup and care." In the ICU give a full report and direct the care. "This patient requires Q 4h neurochecks including full upper and lower extremity range of motion and strength exams." Do the first one yourself.

When you walk into an OR, or PACU, or preop holding area, or ICU, your presence should be anxiolytic, not anxiogenic. You can see and hear the difference when different anesthesiologists walk in. We need to make a concerted effort across the specialty to change the attitude of and towards the specialty.

It starts with the medical students. I cannot tell you how many PM's and e-mails I still get from this forum from med students with subpar grades and docile personalities, looking for the high pay, easy lifestyle, no stress field. I no longer respond to those students, because this field does not need foot soldiers. It needs leaders and visionaries to push the boundaries of the field and take ownership of our future. It doesn't need fearmongers, supporting cast members, or the spineless.

Work in a hostile environment? Defuse it. Find out what the issues are and tackle them head on. Do it with zeal, a positive, helpful attitude, but most of all with authority. As I have said multiple times in the past, you have to get involved from the top down to understand and develop all facets of your practice and your facilities. That means spending some off time in administration and rooting out problems before they start to fester. I spend a large portion of my free time in administrative meetings both teaching and learning from administrators about issues they may not even have considered.

Cost considerations are always a concern. This group will do it cheaper, this group uses CRNA's, this group will come out to location X, etc. I have been asked to change my practice by facilities before and each time, I have clearly delineated the pros and cons and emphasized the depth and experience of my group to administrators. I am more than willing to take those assets and develop your competitor. That happened again and two months ago, I was reapproached by the facility I left to come back and resume our practice there. I declined. When they sweetened the deal, I accepted with stipulations.

In the future, we need to develop physician specific, core business concepts that will provide reproducible, sustainable models in all situations. The "cheaper is not better" approach combined with sustainable revenues and proven outcomes starts with the ASA and legislative efforts. It is a comprehensive model that can be used to not only sustain our presence but also redefine our roles as providers, leaders, and business developers.
 
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This is why u have been one of my favorite posters ever sine I was a med student over 7 years ago. You are so right on so many levels.

Well you know that the smackdown is coming if I post a reply:

I find it more than a little irritating that anesthesiologists seem to complain about respect issues, lifestyle, pay, nurses, etc. and just stew over it.

I have been in practice six years, do every kind of case known to man, 100% solo/no supervision, work hard but play hard, and only twice can I recall being disrespected/questioned in that time.

Both times, by nurses, a quick, educational, and authoritative response quelled any further insubordination. Surgeons, nurses, and administrators know that when I say something, request something, order something, do something, it has a legitimate purpose and MUST be done. It is a confidence they have in my judgement and more importantly, my compassion.

Conversely, I am told regularly about how some anesthesiologists have little to no ability to make a firm decision, bounce back and forth between totally opposite treatments/decisions, speak/act like scared mice, rush out of the PACU or ICU to make a haircut appointment, talk about anything EXCEPT medicine or THEIR patient, etc.

With that backdrop, it becomes increasingly difficult to keep the lines distinguished.

These are YOUR patients, not just the surgeon's. Take ownership of your patients, your situation, your facility, and be heard. Too many expect that M.D. or D.O. acronyms on their badges will instantly afford respect or authority. With Hollywood medical vomitus on TV and in the movies creating an overgeneralized image of the lazy, incompetent, vain, self-centered, dangerous physician, the deck is stacked against you.

Don't jump up and down on the down side of an overloaded ship, throw the baggage overboard.

Get involved in every phase of every case you do. The more you do that, the faster and easier it becomes and the more indispensible you become. "Dr. CT surgeon, I spoke with your AVR, redo CABG patient last night and he has worsening cervical stenosis with OPLL diagnosed over a year ago. I am recommending full neuromonitoring for this case and will consult with his neurosurgeon on post-op followup and care." In the ICU give a full report and direct the care. "This patient requires Q 4h neurochecks including full upper and lower extremity range of motion and strength exams." Do the first one yourself.

When you walk into an OR, or PACU, or preop holding area, or ICU, your presence should be anxiolytic, not anxiogenic. You can see and hear the difference when different anesthesiologists walk in. We need to make a concerted effort across the specialty to change the attitude of and towards the specialty.

It starts with the medical students. I cannot tell you how many PM's and e-mails I still get from this forum from med students with subpar grades and docile personalities, looking for the high pay, easy lifestyle, no stress field. I no longer respond to those students, because this field does not need foot soldiers. It needs leaders and visionaries to push the boundaries of the field and take ownership of our future. It doesn't need fearmongers, supporting cast members, or the spineless.

Work in a hostile environment? Defuse it. Find out what the issues are and tackle them head on. Do it with zeal, a positive, helpful attitude, but most of all with authority. As I have said multiple times in the past, you have to get involved from the top down to understand and develop all facets of your practice and your facilities. That means spending some off time in administration and rooting out problems before they start to fester. I spend a large portion of my free time in administrative meetings both teaching and learning from administrators about issues they may not even have considered.

Cost considerations are always a concern. This group will do it cheaper, this group uses CRNA's, this group will come out to location X, etc. I have been asked to change my practice by facilities before and each time, I have clearly delineated the pros and cons and emphasized the depth and experience of my group to administrators. I am more than willing to take those assets and develop your competitor. That happened again and two months ago, I was reapproached by the facility I left to come back and resume our practice there. I declined. When they sweetened the deal, I accepted with stipulations.

In the future, we need to develop physician specific, core business concepts that will provide reproducible, sustainable models in all situations. The "cheaper is not better" approach combined with sustainable revenues and proven outcomes starts with the ASA and legislative efforts. It is a comprehensive model that can be used to not only sustain our presence but also redefine our roles as providers, leaders, and business developers.
 
My problem is that I did internal medicine before anesthesiology. I was treated with more respect from nurses and other doctors as a senior medicine resident than I am now as an attending. And I think that I am a very good anesthesiologist and an easy going person, so it is not that people don't have confidence in me or think I am a prick. I am sick of snide remarks from surgical residents and OR nurses. I am sick of asking orthopods if I can block their patients like I am begging for them to throw me a bone. I miss actually learning new things and using my brain. Anesthesia can be a pretty sweet gig for some people...but I don't think I can do it full time for the next 20-25 years. I need more stimulation. I didn't become a doctor to come to work and punch a clock...I became a doctor because I wanted to be constantly challenged. I am hoping to split my time between ICU and OR....but we shall see....

I always tell medical students that if they can think of any other specialty that they would like to do, then do it. If not...then anesthesia can be a good job.

I thought that's what the surgeons always like to tell the medical students.....
 
Well you know that the smackdown is coming if I post a reply:

I find it more than a little irritating that anesthesiologists seem to complain about respect issues, lifestyle, pay, nurses, etc. and just stew over it.

I have been in practice six years, do every kind of case known to man, 100% solo/no supervision, work hard but play hard, and only twice can I recall being disrespected/questioned in that time.

Both times, by nurses, a quick, educational, and authoritative response quelled any further insubordination. Surgeons, nurses, and administrators know that when I say something, request something, order something, do something, it has a legitimate purpose and MUST be done. It is a confidence they have in my judgement and more importantly, my compassion.

Conversely, I am told regularly about how some anesthesiologists have little to no ability to make a firm decision, bounce back and forth between totally opposite treatments/decisions, speak/act like scared mice, rush out of the PACU or ICU to make a haircut appointment, talk about anything EXCEPT medicine or THEIR patient, etc.

With that backdrop, it becomes increasingly difficult to keep the lines distinguished.

These are YOUR patients, not just the surgeon's. Take ownership of your patients, your situation, your facility, and be heard. Too many expect that M.D. or D.O. acronyms on their badges will instantly afford respect or authority. With Hollywood medical vomitus on TV and in the movies creating an overgeneralized image of the lazy, incompetent, vain, self-centered, dangerous physician, the deck is stacked against you.

Don't jump up and down on the down side of an overloaded ship, throw the baggage overboard.

Get involved in every phase of every case you do. The more you do that, the faster and easier it becomes and the more indispensible you become. "Dr. CT surgeon, I spoke with your AVR, redo CABG patient last night and he has worsening cervical stenosis with OPLL diagnosed over a year ago. I am recommending full neuromonitoring for this case and will consult with his neurosurgeon on post-op followup and care." In the ICU give a full report and direct the care. "This patient requires Q 4h neurochecks including full upper and lower extremity range of motion and strength exams." Do the first one yourself.

When you walk into an OR, or PACU, or preop holding area, or ICU, your presence should be anxiolytic, not anxiogenic. You can see and hear the difference when different anesthesiologists walk in. We need to make a concerted effort across the specialty to change the attitude of and towards the specialty.

It starts with the medical students. I cannot tell you how many PM's and e-mails I still get from this forum from med students with subpar grades and docile personalities, looking for the high pay, easy lifestyle, no stress field. I no longer respond to those students, because this field does not need foot soldiers. It needs leaders and visionaries to push the boundaries of the field and take ownership of our future. It doesn't need fearmongers, supporting cast members, or the spineless.

Work in a hostile environment? Defuse it. Find out what the issues are and tackle them head on. Do it with zeal, a positive, helpful attitude, but most of all with authority. As I have said multiple times in the past, you have to get involved from the top down to understand and develop all facets of your practice and your facilities. That means spending some off time in administration and rooting out problems before they start to fester. I spend a large portion of my free time in administrative meetings both teaching and learning from administrators about issues they may not even have considered.

Cost considerations are always a concern. This group will do it cheaper, this group uses CRNA's, this group will come out to location X, etc. I have been asked to change my practice by facilities before and each time, I have clearly delineated the pros and cons and emphasized the depth and experience of my group to administrators. I am more than willing to take those assets and develop your competitor. That happened again and two months ago, I was reapproached by the facility I left to come back and resume our practice there. I declined. When they sweetened the deal, I accepted with stipulations.

In the future, we need to develop physician specific, core business concepts that will provide reproducible, sustainable models in all situations. The "cheaper is not better" approach combined with sustainable revenues and proven outcomes starts with the ASA and legislative efforts. It is a comprehensive model that can be used to not only sustain our presence but also redefine our roles as providers, leaders, and business developers.

Thanks for that information-packed post! I have news that will encourage you...there are many students at my school applying for anesthesiology that are definitely competitive in terms of grades and boards. There are several of us that relish testicle-busting work too.
 
I am an ER attending switching to anesthesia. This discussion makes me think medicine is becoming an unpleasant field for a lot of people. A lot of people view ER as a lifestyle field, but believe me it is not. Just like the original poster there are many things that cause ER to be a high burnout specialty. I work half the weekends and holidays, I literally do not have time to pee during a shift, the busiest times in the ER are in the evenings and overnights so the bulk of the scheduling is during that time so I am not home with my family for dinner and I still feel like I am on call multiple times a week when I am pulling into my driveway at 3am after a long shift.
My point is, it is very hard to see the details and intricacies of what the "real world" work life of a specialty will be like as you are drudging through med school and when you get on the other side it is often a surprise as to what it is really like.
 
I am an ER attending switching to anesthesia. This discussion makes me think medicine is becoming an unpleasant field for a lot of people. A lot of people view ER as a lifestyle field, but believe me it is not. Just like the original poster there are many things that cause ER to be a high burnout specialty. I work half the weekends and holidays, I literally do not have time to pee during a shift, the busiest times in the ER are in the evenings and overnights so the bulk of the scheduling is during that time so I am not home with my family for dinner and I still feel like I am on call multiple times a week when I am pulling into my driveway at 3am after a long shift.
My point is, it is very hard to see the details and intricacies of what the "real world" work life of a specialty will be like as you are drudging through med school and when you get on the other side it is often a surprise as to what it is really like.

There's not a month, week, day, hour, minute, second, microsecond, or nanosecond that I wish I was still doing ER. ER prepares you to do any specialty because no matter what it is, it's a massive upgrade.
 
I miss actually learning new things and using my brain. I need more stimulation.

So the surgical specialties like Ortho and Uro are brain oriented? The highly skilled surgeon doing the same 1 or 2 cases day after day is stimulated? An internist largely treating chronic HTN and DM for our overweight country is challenged?

You can do Desfluranes job and be bored out of your mind, you can find a job where you are running start to finish treating complicated crap all day, or you can find inbetween.
 
There's not a month, week, day, hour, minute, second, microsecond, or nanosecond that I wish I was still doing ER. ER prepares you to do any specialty because no matter what it is, it's a massive upgrade.

Would you mind elaborating?
 
Would you mind elaborating?

I'm assuming narcotized was also an ER doc at one point. Maybe I can elaborate some of my feelings as an ER attending. Christmas/Thanksgiving/major holidays - no different staffing than any other day, be prepared to work at least half. Weekends- work at least half of them in a month. Busiest time in the ER is late evenings, so lots of shifts at that time, it is hard for me to join a basketball league or other repeating activity because most of my shifts are during the time most others are off. The workload is also silly, I literally do not have time to pee.
I know a lot of people reading this are thinking that I just need to suck it up and deal with it but I am with narcotized, I am ready to get out.
 
you knew that going in.. nobody respects anesthesiologist or even acknowledges your presence til something bad happens. thats known. The little respect part is known...... I knew that.. Thats not what bothers me.. its the lack of autonomy.. as you stated.. you dont like askin orthopods if you can block their patients.. Its a different mentality and job altogether. Anesthesia is really a service job. You have to keep your customers happy. and your customers happen to be everyone.. surgeons... pacu nurses.. crnas... holding room nurses.. all that.. otherwise you wont be successful..

Yes...I did know what it was like before I switched into anesthesia, but I thought it wouldn't bother me...I guess I was wrong. And yes, when the **** hits the fan they are glad I am there. I think that I am pretty good at not letting the **** hit the fan often, and most people in the OR do not really know that all the little things I do keep this from happening. Whatever though...its not a bad gig I guess, but I just can't see myself spending the rest of my career in the OR alone.
 
I am an ER attending switching to anesthesia. This discussion makes me think medicine is becoming an unpleasant field for a lot of people. A lot of people view ER as a lifestyle field, but believe me it is not. Just like the original poster there are many things that cause ER to be a high burnout specialty. I work half the weekends and holidays, I literally do not have time to pee during a shift, the busiest times in the ER are in the evenings and overnights so the bulk of the scheduling is during that time so I am not home with my family for dinner and I still feel like I am on call multiple times a week when I am pulling into my driveway at 3am after a long shift.
My point is, it is very hard to see the details and intricacies of what the "real world" work life of a specialty will be like as you are drudging through med school and when you get on the other side it is often a surprise as to what it is really like.

I used to work as a hospitalist and spend a lot of time in the ER...I know how stressful you guys have it. I don't blame you for wanting out.
 
So the surgical specialties like Ortho and Uro are brain oriented? The highly skilled surgeon doing the same 1 or 2 cases day after day is stimulated? An internist largely treating chronic HTN and DM for our overweight country is challenged?

You can do Desfluranes job and be bored out of your mind, you can find a job where you are running start to finish treating complicated crap all day, or you can find inbetween.

I agree that many, if not most specialties are not that challenging. I am hoping that doing ICU work will be, but who knows.... Like someone earlier said, it is only one year. And I currently work in a MD-only practice in a level one trauma center and do pretty much all types of cases...but regardless of how complicated the case is surgically, it is pretty much just variations on the same thing as far as I am concerned.
 
Personally, I think that if someone wants to get out of anesthesia then they should. That leaves the rest of us more in demand.

If you are good at something then it becomes less and less challenging. It can still be stimulating but no matter what you do in medicine I believe the challenges become less and less often.

I love it when someone says they are tired of anesthesia. I often find myself becoming tired of going to work and taking care of people who are grateful for what we do. I find it tiresome when surgical colleagues, ICU colleagues, and ER colleagues struggle with something that we make look easy when they ask for our help. I get tired of watching my bank account grow. Of having nice things. Of taking nice vacations. All while watching the rest of this country suffer and wonder if they will get a job in the next day, week, month. I get tired of coming home to my beautiful wife after a day of taking care of people and working with intelligent caring co-workers. I get tired of pts giving me gifts and writing me letters of appreciation even after they have been given some seriously disturbing news about their health but they took the time to thank me anyway. This must be an awful job I have.

So if a colleague disrespects me or treats me like anything inferior to them I plainly make it very apparent that I won't tolerate it and that I think absolutely nothing of them if they can't see how "OUR" pts need me. UTSW said it correctly, You must take ownership of your pts.
 
Personally, I think that if someone wants to get out of anesthesia then they should. That leaves the rest of us more in demand.

If you are good at something then it becomes less and less challenging. It can still be stimulating but no matter what you do in medicine I believe the challenges become less and less often.

I love it when someone says they are tired of anesthesia. I often find myself becoming tired of going to work and taking care of people who are grateful for what we do. I find it tiresome when surgical colleagues, ICU colleagues, and ER colleagues struggle with something that we make look easy when they ask for our help. I get tired of watching my bank account grow. Of having nice things. Of taking nice vacations. All while watching the rest of this country suffer and wonder if they will get a job in the next day, week, month. I get tired of coming home to my beautiful wife after a day of taking care of people and working with intelligent caring co-workers. I get tired of pts giving me gifts and writing me letters of appreciation even after they have been given some seriously disturbing news about their health but they took the time to thank me anyway. This must be an awful job I have.

So if a colleague disrespects me or treats me like anything inferior to them I plainly make it very apparent that I won't tolerate it and that I think absolutely nothing of them if they can't see how "OUR" pts need me. UTSW said it correctly, You must take ownership of your pts.

It must be nice to work in a small, tight knit group where you look out for each other. My only exposure is the 6-7 hospitals I rotated at as a resident and fellow, but my guess is that in most practices you'd end up fired if you stand up for yourself. You start off with a presumption of guilt in any conflict with no opportunity to argue your point of view. I hope I'm wrong and that more practices are reasonable, but frankly I doubt that's the case. Especially with more and more AMCs and larger and larger groups, the management is removed from the practice and just wants employees who don't rock the boat. We certainly shouldn't be getting into arguments with surgeons, circulators, PACU nurses, etc. on a daily basis, but I also don't think our jobs should be on the line every time an anesthesiologist refuses to be disrespected. The disrespect stands because your job is at risk and theirs isn't.

Correct me if I am wrong.
 
Agree with gypsydoc. Outside of an academic dept with a strong chair, the squeaky wheel gets squashed. I worked at a small group, did big cases, was requested by most of the staff to give their gas to them or their family members. Even in that situation we were expected to not complain, not cancel cases, just do the work. I didn't accept this, cancelled cases if the patients weren't fit for surgery and was given crap for it.

Money wins, and in a "service field" you have to do what is expected or be replaced. No matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you "own your patients" you are easily replaced. There were GIs who loudly proclaimed how they prefer the crnas because they never cared about preop ekgs or lab work, they just did the case. Needless to say, I no longer work there.
 
It must be nice to work in a small, tight knit group where you look out for each other. My only exposure is the 6-7 hospitals I rotated at as a resident and fellow, but my guess is that in most practices you'd end up fired if you stand up for yourself. You start off with a presumption of guilt in any conflict with no opportunity to argue your point of view. I hope I'm wrong and that more practices are reasonable, but frankly I doubt that's the case. Especially with more and more AMCs and larger and larger groups, the management is removed from the practice and just wants employees who don't rock the boat. We certainly shouldn't be getting into arguments with surgeons, circulators, PACU nurses, etc. on a daily basis, but I also don't think our jobs should be on the line every time an anesthesiologist refuses to be disrespected. The disrespect stands because your job is at risk and theirs isn't.

Correct me if I am wrong.


you are absolutely correct. You have to certainly pick your battles otherwise you will find yourelf unemployed. Its a decent paying job but the amount of "let it slide" i do on a daily basis is astounding.
 
Personally, I think that if someone wants to get out of anesthesia then they should. That leaves the rest of us more in demand.

If you are good at something then it becomes less and less challenging. It can still be stimulating but no matter what you do in medicine I believe the challenges become less and less often.

I love it when someone says they are tired of anesthesia. I often find myself becoming tired of going to work and taking care of people who are grateful for what we do. I find it tiresome when surgical colleagues, ICU colleagues, and ER colleagues struggle with something that we make look easy when they ask for our help. I get tired of watching my bank account grow. Of having nice things. Of taking nice vacations. All while watching the rest of this country suffer and wonder if they will get a job in the next day, week, month. I get tired of coming home to my beautiful wife after a day of taking care of people and working with intelligent caring co-workers. I get tired of pts giving me gifts and writing me letters of appreciation even after they have been given some seriously disturbing news about their health but they took the time to thank me anyway. This must be an awful job I have.

So if a colleague disrespects me or treats me like anything inferior to them I plainly make it very apparent that I won't tolerate it and that I think absolutely nothing of them if they can't see how "OUR" pts need me. UTSW said it correctly, You must take ownership of your pts.


funny post. you are out of touch.
 
you are absolutely correct. You have to certainly pick your battles otherwise you will find yourelf unemployed. Its a decent paying job but the amount of "let it slide" i do on a daily basis is astounding.

Man, then perhaps you're just not doing something right. Sure, I'm all wet behind the ears and naive etc. etc. (the predictable response) but I know a lot on this forum as well as many anesthesiologists personally, who love their jobs, get an adequate amount of "respect" (earned mind you), and feel well compensated and challenged.

So, what is making you, and a few others, so different? How can Noy say one thing and you another?

Maybe it IS time to change groups if it's that bad. OR, maybe you could look in the mirror and see if their's anything in your day to day behavior that may warrant a change?

Why are some more or less happy (with realistic expectations) with their careers and others so miserable. Is it REALLY the job, or is it the individual and that individual's ATTITUDE TOWARDS the job?? We should all reflect on this.

I see some dudes on this forum really embrace their measely positions as anesthesiologists (too many to name but we all know who they are). They embrace responsibility. They take ownership of their patients. They work to establish good report's with surgeons. They earn the respect of others by doing a good job, and MOST IMPORTANTLY adding value to the perioperative process. Whatever that means, and it surely means something different in different practices/institutions.

It's all up to us, people.

And let me speak to the future, for any fellow PGY1's or med students out there. I hear all the time how "impressed" people are with the quality of the anesthesiology interns. WE are currently working to EARN the respect of folks in the hospital. This isn't that hard, and it WILL translate into a more amiable environment in the OR when we work hard during our surgical months. When we take good care of post-op patients (OF SURGEONS WE'LL BE WORKING WITH very soon) in the SICU. When, on our various months, doing whatever, we work hard, take interest, CONTROL our attitudes (even when working crappy ER shifts kind of blows), taking INTEREST (even if you have to fake it and I mean that) in other specialties (thus in other specialISTS) etc. etc. It's really not that ****ing difficult. Have an attitude. Get some confidence. Do whatever it takes.

Do you know how valuable it is as a junior resident to walk up and INTRODUCE yourself to a well known/respected surgeon (or any other specialist for that matter, including those of our own specialty)???? This can be huge. Make a good first impression. Take an active role and itnerest in the care of their patients and I will gaurantee you will earn respect.

cf
 
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