Who thinks SDN overestimates the URM effect?

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I think that the URM effect is definitely over-estimated on SDN. I have been doing some research and things have really changed in the past years. The MCAT median for accepted applicants is a 32 Q and rising. In addition many URMs are scoring in higher percentile overall. I have some friends AA males that have yet to recieve an interview this cycle. And AA girl who has been to only one.. and has been completed since august. The URM effect is not as strong as it used to be and those who are banking on it I believe, are in for a big surprize! Any thoughts?

My only non-SDN experience is an AA from 2-3 years ago with 20 MCAT and 3.6ish GPA who was accepted to a non-Meharry/Morehouse US allopathic schools who didn't fill in any activity descriptions in his 15 activities (I got to view the AMCAS).

I don't know the person and don't know the rest of the life story (don't remember what the PS was about), but it gave credence to SDN's perception.

Originally Posted by loveoforganic

My only non-SDN experience is an AA from 2-3 years ago with 20 MCAT and 3.6ish GPA who was accepted to a non-Meharry/Morehouse US allopathic schools who didn't fill in any activity descriptions in his 15 activities (I got to view the AMCAS).

I don't know the person and don't know the rest of the life story (don't remember what the PS was about), but it gave credence to SDN's perception.

This was 2 or 3 years ago. I am betting if this individual applied now.. things would have been very different.

Originally Posted by Techmed07

I think that the URM effect is definitely over-estimated on SDN. I have been doing some research and things have really changed in the past years. The MCAT median for accepted applicants is a 32 Q and rising. In addition many URMs are scoring in higher percentile overall. I have some friends AA males that have yet to recieve an interview this cycle. And AA girl who has been to only one.. and has been completed since august. The URM effect is not as strong as it used to be and those who are banking on it I believe, are in for a big surprize! Any thoughts?

Can't say if it's over-exaggerated or not, most URM threads outside of this forum end up as borderline troll threads at best anyways. You shouldn't base claims off of anecdotal evidence though.

There's still a pretty sizable MCAT discrepency among matriculants as of 2009.
https://www.aamc.org/download/85998/...ceeth09web.pdf

Unfortuantely the aamc only seems to have posted this data for 2009 instead of shown overtime like they do for some other variables. So it's hard to say how it's changed, at least from the data available at the aamc site.

Originally Posted by DrYoda

Can't say if it's over-exaggerated or not, most URM threads outside of this forum end up as borderline troll threads at best anyways. You shouldn't base claims off of anecdotal evidence though.

There's still a pretty sizable MCAT discrepency among matriculants as of 2009.
https://www.aamc.org/download/85998/...ceeth09web.pdf

Unfortuantely the aamc only seems to have posted this data for 2009 instead of shown overtime like they do for some other variables. So it's hard to say how it's changed, at least from the data available at the aamc site.

That was 2009 that was almost three years ago. I expect to see at least 28 is the coming year and a higher GPA. Perhaps the average MCAT of other groups will rise as well. But the notion that to get into medical school with a 3.3 and a 33 MCAT because you are AA may be a thing of the past in this up coming cycle.

Originally Posted by Techmed07

That was 2009 that was almost three years ago. I expect to see at least 28 is the coming year and a higher GPA. Perhaps the average MCAT of other groups will arise as well. But the notion that to get into medical school with a 3.3 and a 33 MCAT because you are AA may be a thing of the past in this up coming cycle.

To clarify: 2009 is the most recently available data. Applicants from 2009 are the most recent to complete an application cycle. it's from october 2009, one year ago.

I think you're overestimating how quickly things change

Originally Posted by loveoforganic

I think you're overestimating how quickly things change

So you think the stats are spot on?... I think people forget about other factors such as Meharry, Morehouse and Howard ect and schools in PR.

I think what you're talking about needs to be clarified. URM applicants as a whole or URM applicants to US non-Morehouse/Meharry. Your first post seems like the former, your last post like the latter.

Originally Posted by loveoforganic

I think what you're talking about needs to be clarified. URM applicants as a whole or URM applicants to US non-Morehouse/Meharry. Your first post seems like the former, your last post like the latter.

URM applicants to US non-Morehous/Meharry/Howard... sorry about that. I just feel many things are skewed on SDN. Why not the URM effect?

I think its hard to tell, since most of us are simply observers. It seems from the few cases I have seen on SDN (yes I know about sampling bias) that URMs have quicker turnaround in getting interviews, especially at top schools(ie Cornell, Yale, etc.). May not be the actually case, but its something I noticed.

Originally Posted by Turtlespeed

I think its hard to tell, since most of us are simply observers. It seems from the few cases I have seen on SDN (yes I know about sampling bias) that URMs have quicker turnaround in getting interviews, especially at top schools(ie Cornell, Yale, etc.). May not be the actually case, but its something I noticed.

Yeah I have seen similar things. However, I only know of two URMS that interviewing at such schools. At an internship at Columbia the medical students there has at least a 35.. the advice they gave us premeds is that we shoud pay attention the average MCAT listed on the MSAR. That things have changed drastically when it comes to URMs getting into medical school.

Originally Posted by Techmed07

Yeah I have seen similar things. However, I only know of two URMS that interviewing at such schools. At an internship at Columbia the medical students there has at least a 35.. the advice they gave us premeds is that we shoud pay attention the average MCAT listed on the MSAR. That things have changed drastically when it comes to URMs getting into medical school.

I agree. I have a 37 but not a strong GPA and only my in-state school has given me love (still no acceptance yet). According to SDN I would be interviewing everywhere. URM helps a lot. This fact can't be ignored. However, you had better have the whole package. My lack of research and fairly weak GPA has hurt me. If SDN were correct, it wouldn't have mattered. In general it helps, but SDN vastly overrates the effect. Most schools still have at most 3-4 AA males in attendance. What I think is that those with a compelling story like being involved in Katrina or proven service to the under-served get a favorable boost regardless of stats. Whereas, those with average activities it does not help as much. You hit the nail on the head tech.

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

I agree. I have a 37 but not a strong GPA and only my in-state school has given me love (still no acceptance yet). According to SDN I would be interviewing everywhere. URM helps a lot. This fact can't be ignored. However, you had better have the whole package. My lack of research and fairly weak GPA has hurt me. If SDN were correct, it wouldn't have mattered. In general it helps, but SDN vastly overrates the effect. Most schools still have at most 3-4 AA males in attendance. What I think is that those with a compelling story like being involved in Katrina or proven service to the under-served get a favorable boost regardless of stats. Whereas, those with average activities it does not help as much. You hit the nail on the head tech.

Yup, I thought so. My brother got in to a school with below average stats and had to take the mcat three times before reaching a 30. However, his ECs' were amazing 2 years working in the hospital,tutoring at risk kids etc etc. I think top schools when looking for URMs are looking for these type of applicants. A run of a mill applicant URM with average stats period may not cut it...especially at top schools.

I think people see Jolt and think oh he got in because he is a URM...and although it may have helped..have you seen his ECs I bet the caliber is better or at least at the same level as his fellow classmates at harvard. The statement that all you need is a 30+ and decent GPA to get into a top school as URM is bs...and should not be perpetuated.


Anybody else care to chime in?

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

I agree. I have a 37 but not a strong GPA and only my in-state school has given me love (still no acceptance yet). According to SDN I would be interviewing everywhere. URM helps a lot. This fact can't be ignored. However, you had better have the whole package. My lack of research and fairly weak GPA has hurt me. If SDN were correct, it wouldn't have mattered. In general it helps, but SDN vastly overrates the effect. Most schools still have at most 3-4 AA males in attendance. What I think is that those with a compelling story like being involved in Katrina or proven service to the under-served get a favorable boost regardless of stats. Whereas, those with average activities it does not help as much. You hit the nail on the head tech.

Man I remember you posting a while back. You have a 3.5 and 37 MCAT. You should have gotten more interviews than that...Wow things have most definitely changed. At least your MCAT is good for three years.

Originally Posted by Techmed07

Man I remember you posting a while back. You have a 3.5 and 37 MCAT. You should have gotten more interviews than that...Wow things have most definitely changed. At least your MCAT is good for three years.

Yes. My lack of research has killed me along with fairly mediocre ec's. If you want to go to a top school then you better have research. Naijaba and most of the other successful urm's did. I was hoping my MCAt would help but nope. I hate research but I will start doing it in January if nothing changes.

Originally Posted by Techmed07

Yup, I thought so. My brother got in to a school with below average stats and had to take the mcat three times before reaching a 30. However, his ECs' were amazing 2 years working in the hospital,tutoring at risk kids etc etc. I think top schools when looking for URMs are looking for these type of applicants. A run of a mill applicant URM with average stats period may not cut it...especially at top schools.

I think people see Jolt and think oh he got in because he is a URM...and although it may have helped..have you seen his ECs I bet the caliber is better or at least at the same level as his fellow classmates at harvard. The statement that all you need is a 30+ and decent GPA to get into a top school as URM is bs...and should not be perpetuated.


Anybody else care to chime in?

Well, Jolt did go to any Ivy League school. We can't ignore the fact that that may have given him a little bump too on top of the urm thing and the 30+ mcat.

Originally Posted by Dartmouth2005

Well, Jolt did go to any Ivy League school. We can't ignore the fact that that may have given him a little bump too on top of the urm thing and the 30+ mcat.

Yet an another piece to the puzzle.

Ivy league for Undegrad
Amazing EC's
30+ MCAT
Non-traditional
Great interviewer (most likely)

The individual is by no means your average joe. I suppose if he was another race he would have had similar success.. (note: I said similar).


This adds evidence that SDN overestimates the URM effect...man I was at one point starting to believe the things said on this forum untill I did some research of my own. The stats are not as promising as one is lead to believe...sigh* Having an extra boost would take a load off though... oh well.

Originally Posted by Techmed07

Yet an another piece to the puzzle.

Ivy league for Undegrad
Amazing EC's
30+ MCAT
Non-traditional
Great interviewer (most likely)

The individual is by no means your average joe. I suppose if he was another race he would have had similar success.. (note: I said similar).


This adds evidence that SDN overestimates the URM effect...man I was at one point starting to believe the things said on this forum untill I did some research of my own. The stats are not as promising as one is lead to believe...sigh* Having an extra boost would take a load off though... oh well.

Dude, you have pretty good stats. I think you will do okay.

What I think really sucks right now is that we are in the tail end of the recession. I remember reading that there is a strong correlation between the state of the economy and grad school applications. When the economy sucks, application numbers surge.

I just don't see this happening: http://www.mdapplicants.com/profile....rderby:,order:

It's not hard to be quantitative. If someone has the Morehouse/Meharry admissions GPA/MCAT scores and class sizes, you can factor their students' data out of the national data from the link you posted (if you make the assumption that all their students are AA).

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

I agree. I have a 37 but not a strong GPA and only my in-state school has given me love (still no acceptance yet). According to SDN I would be interviewing everywhere. URM helps a lot. This fact can't be ignored. However, you had better have the whole package. My lack of research and fairly weak GPA has hurt me. If SDN were correct, it wouldn't have mattered. In general it helps, but SDN vastly overrates the effect. Most schools still have at most 3-4 AA males in attendance. What I think is that those with a compelling story like being involved in Katrina or proven service to the under-served get a favorable boost regardless of stats. Whereas, those with average activities it does not help as much. You hit the nail on the head tech.

That surprises me, regardless of URM status I'd expect any applicant with a decent GPA +37 to have more luck. Did you apply to mainly upper tier schools (they can be a killer if you have no research)?

Originally Posted by Dartmouth2005

Dude, you have pretty good stats. I think you will do okay.

What I think really sucks right now is that we are in the tail end of the recession. I remember reading that there is a strong correlation between the state of the economy and grad school applications. When the economy sucks, application numbers surge.

Yep. Applicant slumps and peaks slightly lag, boom and busts (see graph). One could make a case that reform might scare of some applicants this time, but IMO the recession and job market aftershock was/is so bad that job security is going to remain #1 on most people's list for quite awhile. also, you guys should get some help from the new school openings so the applicant/matriculate ratio probably won't change as much as in the graph.

Recessions in: 81-82, 91-92, 2001

Originally Posted by Dartmouth2005

Dude, you have pretty good stats. I think you will do okay.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Originally Posted by Dartmouth2005

What I think really sucks right now is that we are in the tail end of the recession. I remember reading that there is a strong correlation between the state of the economy and grad school applications. When the economy sucks, application numbers surge.

I just don't see this happening: http://www.mdapplicants.com/profile....rderby:,order:

Yeah.. I agree. The recession will maybe give us a little more competition than the proceeding years .

Originally Posted by loveoforganic

It's not hard to be quantitative. If someone has the Morehouse/Meharry admissions GPA/MCAT scores and class sizes, you can factor their students' data out of the national data from the link you posted (if you make the assumption that all their students are AA).

Yeah.. If I had time I would look atMorehouse,Meharry,Howard and Puerto Rican schools numbers and see their effect on the numbers we see in the table

Originally Posted by DrYoda

That surprises me, regardless of URM status I'd expect any applicant with a decent GPA +37 to have more luck. Did you apply to mainly upper tier schools (they can be a killer if you have no research)?).

Yeah it is very strange. Bravo have you called regarding your application. Perhaps, a bad LOR?

Originally Posted by DrYoda

Yep. Applicant slumps and peaks slightly lag, boom and busts (see graph). One could make a case that reform might scare of some applicants this time, but IMO the recession and job market aftershock was/is so bad that job security is going to remain #1 on most people's list for quite awhile. also, you guys should get some help from the new school openings so the applicant/matriculate ratio probably won't change as much as in the graph.

Recessions in: 81-82, 91-92, 2001

Looks like things are on the rise in regards to applicants...

I wish I applied in 2007...So, this is what everbody is talking about.

http://www.mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=8835

Originally Posted by Techmed07

I wish I applied in 2007...So, this is what everbody is talking about.

http://www.mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=8835

^^^I wonder what happened to that guy... hollatchaboy

Originally Posted by flaahless

^^^I wonder what happened to that guy... hollatchaboy

ayyyyeee. Do you feel like URM effect is over-estimated on SDN?

I think you have already looked up all the facts and figures. No need to beat the topic over the head.

Originally Posted by Techmed07

ayyyyeee. Do you feel like URM effect is over-estimated on SDN?

I don't think it is. I started med school in 08. 3.15 GPA w/ a slightly lower science GPA. 33 MCAT. Decent but not spectacular recs. In terms of highly rated schools got IV's from Duke, UCLA, and Emory. Notable rejections were Harvard, UCSF, Vandy.

*

38MCAT here, really low GPA, lots of volunteer experience, shadowing etc, non-trad, minimal research.


Result: decent but not great
IV: Yale, Mich, Pitt, Cincinnati, state school, Cornell, Northwestern
Adm: State school, mich, cincinatti
waitlist: Pitt
didn't apply: Duke, JHU, case western
Rejected: Wash U, Vandy, Penn,

I guess OP has a point. I dont think i would have done much worse if I wasnt URM

Originally Posted by Naijaboiler

38MCAT here, really low GPA, lots of volunteer experience, shadowing etc, non-trad, minimal research.


Result: decent but not great
IV: Yale, Mich, Pitt, Cincinnati, state school, Cornell, Northwestern
Adm: State school, mich, cincinatti
waitlist: Pitt
didn't apply: Duke, JHU, case western
Rejected: Wash U, Vandy, Penn,

I guess OP has a point. I dont think i would have done much worse if I wasnt URM

Interesting, I'm almost your exact clone but not URM. 38 MCAT, 3.4ish GPA, good volunteer and work experience, nontrad, minimal research.

I applied to 30+ schools including your list of IV, interviewed at Emory, Iowa, Ohio, VCU, MCW, Rosalind. Accepted so far at MCW and Rosalind, still waiting to find out from the others. Rejected from all the rest.

Tech I don't think you really have anything to worry about. Your stats and ec's are great for anybody. It wouldn't surprise me if you got into a couple of top 10's.

this thread is false

Originally Posted by ozzi22

this thread is false

In what way?

Overestimate?

The effect of the URM bump? Not at all.
The number of URM's that apply/get the bump? Definitely.

Originally Posted by amakhosidlo

Overestimate?

The effect of the URM bump? Not at all.
The number of URM's that apply/get the bump? Definitely.

I disagree with the statement in bold. There are some idiots on SDN who honestly believe that a URM can get into Harvard with a sub-20 MCAT score and a sub-3.0 GPA. Perhaps if those making such bogus claims were more focused on improving their own applications rather than worrying about the applications of complete strangers, they'd be able to escape from the depths of self pity.

Originally Posted by ready2rumble10

I disagree with the statement in bold. There are some idiots on SDN who honestly believe that a URM can get into Harvard with a sub-20 MCAT score and a sub-3.0 GPA. Perhaps if those making such bogus claims were more focused on improving their own applications rather than worrying about the applications of complete strangers, they'd be able to escape from the depths of self pity.

I am starting to get very overwhelmed about this URM stuff. It gets on my nerves. I feel that I just need to focus on my application, NOT BLAME RACE (because white people do not get into too) and work very hard. YThen when you have excellent stats, you can worry about URM. I do not want this to affect my study habits by obsessing over race.

Originally Posted by Swiss Medical

I am starting to get very overwhelmed about this URM stuff. It gets on my nerves. I feel that I just need to focus on my application, NOT BLAME RACE (because white people do not get into too) and work very hard. YThen when you have excellent stats, you can worry about URM. I do not want this to affect my study habits by obsessing over race.

Leave SDN and do not come back. I almost dropped the ball this semester because of this crap on URMs. When I started on this premed journey I had no Idea about the "lower standards" for URMs. Right now, I am applying with a 3.9-3.8 gpa and 90ish percentile MCAT score. Would have I done as well if I knew about the lower standards? I really don't know, but I don't think knowing would have helped my motivation any in those super hard weed classes I had. STAY AWAY FROM SDN until you are applying....this place is ridic.

Originally Posted by MayoorBust

Leave SDN and do not come back. I almost dropped the ball this semester because of this crap on URMs. When I started on this premed journey I had no Idea about the "lower standards" for URMs. Right now, I am applying with a 3.9-3.8 gpa and 90ish percentile MCAT score. Would have I done as well if I knew about the lower standards? I really don't know, but I don't think knowing would have helped my motivation any in those super hard weed classes I had. STAY AWAY FROM SDN until you are applying....this place is ridic.

Thanks for the advice and congrats on your success...

Originally Posted by DrYoda

Can't say if it's over-exaggerated or not, most URM threads outside of this forum end up as borderline troll threads at best anyways. You shouldn't base claims off of anecdotal evidence though.

There's still a pretty sizable MCAT discrepency among matriculants as of 2009.
https://www.aamc.org/download/85998/...ceeth09web.pdf

Unfortuantely the aamc only seems to have posted this data for 2009 instead of shown overtime like they do for some other variables. So it's hard to say how it's changed, at least from the data available at the aamc site.

I have to agree with dryoda here. There is a sizeable disparity between african american matriculants vs white matriculants. 26.1 MCAT vs 31.3 MCAT and 3.28 Science GPA vs 3.64 Science GPA. That's probably more than a standard deviation on the MCAT side. The URM effect is not overstated.

Hmmm I don't think we get in because we are URM. I think we get in because we are FIRST QUALIFIED and it so happens to be that we ARE URM

Good Luck to everyone for this cycle

Originally Posted by FIREitUP

I have to agree with dryoda here. There is a sizeable disparity between african american matriculants vs white matriculants. 26.1 MCAT vs 31.3 MCAT and 3.28 Science GPA vs 3.64 Science GPA. That's probably more than a standard deviation on the MCAT side. The URM effect is not overstated.

Well, I wish someone would have told me this earlier! I could've printed this information out in 2009 and showed the admissions committees so they'd let me in.

Ughhh, so you're telling me I spent all that time, money, and effort in 2010 re-applying with better stats/finally getting some acceptances when I didn't have to?!

I think the URM effect on SDN is overestimated.

*EDIT*

Originally Posted by amakhosidlo

Overestimate?

The effect of the URM bump? Not at all.
The number of URM's that apply/get the bump? Definitely.

I actually kind of agree with this statement

umm, this is all relating to medical it seems, my vietnamese dentist told me, all I need to do is just "try my best" which i believe it true, i plan on using my girlfriend (cambodian) and my black/jewish/japanese status to serve those underserved asian/black communities, and im sure the adcoms in dental school will give me many points for that, can you find a reason why they would not?

are cambodians themselves URM's? i dont see many khmai dentists.

/thread.

I believe URM status is a huge lift in one's application.

I know two URMs, both got into MD schools in 2010-2011 cycle with sub-3.0 postbacc GPA and sub-24 MCAT. One of them applied early (July-August), the other applied in October.
Another person I know who is not a URM didn't even get an interview although he's got 3.4 SMP GPA and 26 MCAT.

Howard, Meharry, Georgetown, Morehouse... heavily favor black applicants.

It IS annoying though on those "what are my chances" discussions where some random guy posts ridiculously low stats and the people reply no way, you have absolutely no chance..... Unless you're a URM..



Although medschools acknowledge the need for more minority physicians (and the need for non-minorities to be more knowledgable of other cultures and peoples), every applicant has to work hard, give it their all, and bring something unique to the table

Tech...My Man!! Congrats on getting into Harvard!! Are you going to matriculate there?

What was your secret man, spill the beans!!

Any tips for an undercover brother?