UC Davis - Pregnancy Discrimination?

Ummm... wow? A couple points:

1) Since vet schools have had female enrollment levels around 80% for many years now, they've figured out how to handle these situations, and legally, they have to work with you if you get pregant. Where has UC Davis been for the last 15 years? Is this seriously the first pregnant student this guy has ever had?

2) This professor needs a review of FERPA. I bet he released confidential information about the student in formulating his "plan" with the class presidents, which opens him up to a world of litigation.

3) I sure hope that when I'm taking $100K+ in loans the next couple years for my education that my profs aren't *****s. They may not be nice, they may not teach well, but I expect them to not be *****s. I expect them to know the appropriate and legal channels to handle me and my classmates.

What a mess...

Execrable. Seriously.

Brings to mind the policy at my school -- if you are an international student and get pregnant, you get deported tout de suite; that is, unless you agree to have an abortion. How very caveman of New Zealand Immigration.

I'm not actually all that surprised that something like this happened. In my personal opinion, it is representative of what I see as the failure of the women's rights movement. We have a world where women are now allowed to do pretty much everything men can do, but only if we act like men - meaning don't get pregnant and if you do, don't stay pregnant. It's misogynism, plain and simple, and I personally think it exists because women have allowed it to exist. We need to demand better or else we'll never get anything better. Veterinary medicine has a great opportunity to be at the cutting edge of what I would see as true feminism, where women can succeed as women with everything that entails.

I would be a little hesitant to rush to judgment here.

Read the post carefully.

The e-mail came from a STUDENT, not from the professor. Just because the e-mail said the professor offered those options doesn't mean anything. Did he really want the students polled? Did he make those comments perhaps in jest? did he say something stupid and then the class rep sent the e-mail to embarass him? Is he really just a *****?

This all sounds a little fishy to me.

I'll admit that at face value this is horrible... however, though I'm sure that this situation wasn't handled well, there probably is a lot more going on than we are privy to. However, I was also concerned by the comments, particularly this one by "El Picador".

Vets are "scientists" are they? What a friggin joke.

There is nothing that prevents one from *becoming* a scientist but training to be a vet sure as hell isn't training to be a scientist. Despite what vets seem to think...

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I don't know about what everyone else here thinks, but I strongly believe that veterinarians are scientists as well as doctors. I truly hope that this opinion doesn't reflect the greater population of clients that we may one day serve.

I am curious to know if any current UCD vet students, if not 3rd years, have heard about this and care to comment what they think and know.

On a tangent, PendantWorld I looove your avatar .

zumazoom said:

I am curious to know if any current UCD vet students, if not 3rd years, have heard about this and care to comment what they think and know.

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yea someone from davis say something lol i'm so curious. the article seems really extreme

zumazoom said:

On a tangent, PendantWorld I looove your avatar .

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Why, thank you!

I know someone that got pregnant as a 4th year at VMRCVM. It was pretty late in the clinical year, but she told me they worked with her on certain rotations including oncology and radiology. She said if she had it to do all over again, she wouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place, but hey hindsight is 20/20. I'm married and we're pretty careful, but crap happens. VMRCVM specifically discusses students that get pregnant on their website. Check out page 21 and 22.

http://www.vetmed.vt.edu/acad/dvm/docs/DVMSrHandbook.pdf

Unless I'm going crazy, I think in previous pregnancy discussions, people have actually commented on how baby-friendly UC Davis is compared to other schools.

If you're a regular reader of ScienceBlogs, you know Isis (while often has interesting posts) has somewhat a flair for the dramatic and being rather scathingly sarcastic. I think this is one instance where she took something and ran with it way, way off the rails, and a lot of the comments below the post are a little more realistic.

Trilt said:

Unless I'm going crazy, I think in previous pregnancy discussions, people have actually commented on how baby-friendly UC Davis is compared to other schools.

If you're a regular reader of ScienceBlogs, you know Isis (while often has interesting posts) has somewhat a flair for the dramatic and being rather scathingly sarcastic. I think this is one instance where she took something and ran with it way, way off the rails, and a lot of the comments below the post are a little more realistic.

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oo so i guess this is a comment from a 3rd yr, well, if u trust this is really a 3rd yr at davis lol but there would really be no reason to lie

"I'm one of the 3rd year vet students, and I had to participate in this decision. First of all, I agree that this situation wasn't handled as delicately as it should have been, but lets face it: not all things in life are handled in the best way possible. Secondly, all aspects of our veterinary education at UC Davis, whether it's curriculum to grading policies, are decided via input from the student body and our elected representatives. It is not a unique thing to have fellow students, who are our brothers and sisters and NOT our competition, decide how to handle certain situations. Dr. Feldman, who despite being misguided, was only trying to be fair, and was merely looking to get advice about how we students would want to be treated if we missed part of our curriculum, which will be changing in the coming year so remediation will be even more tough. Missing out on part of the curriculum, for whatever reason, is very hard to accommodate for and UC Davis (which by the way has a majority of both faculty and students consisting of women) does a remarkable job and goes to great lengths in order to make sure that our needs are met. Obviously, this situation was handled poorly and the student in question was put in an awkward situation. Emails were sent out as soon as this poll went up talking about the absurdity of this, and a general consensus was agreed upon to choose option "E" and allow her grade to be based upon the average of the rest of her quizzes. None of us,man or woman, has gotten where we are at this point in our career without earning every bit of it, and we all respect and care for one another, and that includes the faculty. The author of this blog points out that the options for choosing "give her an A", or "give her a C" were on the poll, but in all honesty no one in the class would have voted for those. It's absurd to think that we would have thrown our fellow student under the bus like that. Now everyone seems intent to comment on an issue they know about because of a few biased excerpts, which were taken out of context, and agree that discrimination and no-good are taking place at UC Davis. Presenting facts and arguing points are hard to do if you weren't a part of the situation in the first place. I do hope the administration learns from this, but I also hope the student body and people outside looking in learn from it too. That being said, after this is over we will still all graduate and get to join a profession we love, which we get paid less to do, which is dominated by women, and which is considered one of the most compassionate professions of all. So please, before you judge a whole school, a whole student body, or even a situation, take a breath and think about it a little longer."

What shocks me most in this is that the professor thought it was a good idea to have the student body deal with a personal student/teacher issue that he did not want to address on his own. While I respect that the student body of UC Davis has input on curriculum and grading policies, isn't it a little "Lord of the Flies-esque" to let the student body determine the fate of one single student. When being too fair goes wrong...sounds like an episode for a bad reality TV show.

Honestly though, I can not see this being the general method for dealing with pregnant students at UC Davis since I am sure the uproar would have been much greater before this. It appears that this professor made a grave mistake he is going to regret for some time. Maybe he should have just manned-up and discussed her grade with her on his own.

PendantWorld said:

I don't know about what everyone else here thinks, but I strongly believe that veterinarians are scientists as well as doctors. I truly hope that this opinion doesn't reflect the greater population of clients that we may one day serve.

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I'm on the fence about this one, quite honestly. I don't know that I really consider DVMs or MDs to be "scientists" in the pure sense of the word, unless they do actual basic science research...

edit: as far as the email and such posted here, I have no comment because I am not a third year and was not involved in any of this except to think that this blog writer is a total ******* who just wants to get attention on the internet. The general method of dealing with disabilities (if you consider pregnancy to be a temporary disability) at UC Davis must be initiated by the student him/herself, who is supposed to get documentation and arrange these types of things with the professor ahead of time.

nyanko said:

I'm on the fence about this one, quite honestly. I don't know that I really consider DVMs or MDs to be "scientists" in the pure sense of the word, unless they do actual basic science research...

edit: as far as the email and such posted here, I have no comment because I am not a third year and was not involved in any of this except to think that this blog writer is a total ******* who just wants to get attention on the internet. The general method of dealing with disabilities (if you consider pregnancy to be a temporary disability) at UC Davis must be initiated by the student him/herself, who is supposed to get documentation and arrange these types of things with the professor ahead of time.

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x 2 for both parts.

I don't actually think that veterinary school/medical school provides enough research experience to their students to actually be considered "scientists". I consider a "scientist" to be someone who is fully capable of performing independent scientific research, typically this would (in my mind) require a significant amount of full time experience in a research lab, managing an independent project. With vet/med students busy schedules it is hard to find time to immerse oneself in research enough to achieve that goal (although those that are interested and willing certainly can and do). Certainly vet/med students are exposed to a lot of science and learn a lot of science, but in my opinion that doesn't make someone capable of actually performing the research and therefore does not equal a scientist.

your opinion may vary. that's okay.

I also think that this blog entry was written in an extremely provocative and instigatory manner. The writer was obviously outraged and instead of presenting "facts" in an unbiased manner (as much as "facts" can come from a friend of a friend or whatever), included their obviously one-sided opinion in the attempt to garner further outrage.

If the student took all necessary steps during the 9 months they were pregnant to square things away via administration and professors for their impending delivery and was then ostracized that is a potential problem, but I tend to think that UC-Davis is capable of handling a single pregnant student and thus there must be a part of the story we aren't being made aware of.

I think the definition of "scientist" in an academic setting and "scientist" in the public eye are somewhat different beasts. Whether there should or shouldn't be a discrepancy is up to debate, but I'd put vets, doctors, pharmacists, etc. in the "scientist to the general public" category. Whether they're academic "scientists" is somewhat dependent upon that vet's individual experience/job/etc.

El Picador is rather obviously trolling in the first place, though.

I don't see why pregnancy should be treated any differently than any other medical/family issue.

All the inflammatory language in this blog post makes me suspicious. I really, really hope there is more to this story. If there isn't, and that happened to me, I would be furious and humiliated.

I'd be more skeptical if there weren't replies from class mates (supposedly.) If this did happen, it is completly inappropriate, particularly if it happened in the way described (poll announced in class with student protesting, poll distribution, voting, etc.) If that all did occur, then I would honestly say there are a lot of folks who took the wrong path, whether it is the professor, the pregnant student (who should have gone to admin immediatly to have this shut down), and to students that voted on the fate of another student. Vet school isn't survivor. I do agree the language the blogger used is incredibly inflammatory, and pretty unneccessary, but that is her opinion and interpretation of the messages these actions send. Even without any of those comments, I think many of us would find this completly inappropriate. As for those students who claim that the students at Davis have a role in this situation in this fashion, I wonder how they would like private aspects of their live placed up for a vote; at least here our grades are our business, not our fellow students, and our health status is protected more than that.

As for scientists, I do believe that vets are scientists. I do not necessarily believe they are research scientists. Scientist is often defined as one learned in science, or one engaging in systematic activity to acquire knowledge. I would contend that most vets are invovled in both. Evaluating, diagnosing, and treating a patient are systematic acquisition of knowledge involving hypothesis, but generally with n = 1. Animal comes in with a given set of symptoms, we offer a set of diagnoses, do tests to rule out diagnoses, and give a treatment on the hypothesis that it will be effective. I won't say it is hard core, 100% replicatable research. Even with that, a lot of vets are involved in hard core research, both in and out of clinical settings. If I ever go into private practice, I am certain I will participate in clinical research. Even as a vet student, I have already had to design, implement, and am now analyzing and reporting on a research project without a PI.

As a student at UC Davis, I want to let you all know that the administration and faculty are taking this seriously. And - it seems like there are a lot of facts missing from the complete story. As a student at Davis, who may start a family while still in school, I have no doubt that Davis will treat me with respect and fairness. I am choosing to wait and watch to see what happens. If this happened the way it is posted, then I am disturbed by it - but feel strongly that the entire school will approach it in a responsible and sensitive manner. I hope that the student that this happened to still feels supported and respected, cuz this is not the vibe at our school at all! So far, my experience with the faculty has been great - they have been very understanding of students' and the struggles they've had to deal with this year. I hope that it gets resolved soon. As graduate schools become more and more populated with women - the atmosphere will just HAVE to change overall.

PearlDVM said:

. If this happened the way it is posted, then I am disturbed by it - but feel strongly that the entire school will approach it in a responsible and sensitive manner.

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I guess I am still trying to understand how it happened at all...and how it progressed to any student ever even casting a vote on it. I think that is what I struggle with. Why didn't anyone say 'hey, Dr, all the respect in the world, but this is a violation of this woman's privacy, and this isn't a decision that I should have any level of responsibility in?' I know that if a professor even started to discuss the health status of another student with me, I'd have to cut that off; it isn't my business unless that student shares it with me. I have to say our school is very good about this; they will not release private information without permission. I would have the same reaction even if this was presented in a positive manner; if it wasn't done without express permission of the student, it isn't acceptable.

It doesn't matter how close the student body is, or how cooperative the environment is, that doesn't negate the right to privacy about health information, nor the responsibility of the professor to manage this in an appropriate manner. For me, the fact that it occured at all raises doubts about responsibility and sensitivity. I hope this is just a poor choice that is corrected quickly and effectively and not at all representative of the school's position. Perhaps faculty need to attend some courses of their own.

I, in no way, meant to minimize the seriousness of all of this. I just think that it's always important to know the facts - which aren't all there. I totally agree - someone, somewhere on the way to this happening, made a horrible judgment call. I only meant to say that this is not typical - and that the school, including the student body, takes the issue seriously. No one should have to deal with this - but now that it has happen, I think that it will be investigated, and dealt with. Believe me - if this professor okayed this email, than I would be right in line to say something - but we just don't know where this all originated. I don't know this professor at all - I just hate to judge people when we don't know who, truly, started this problem. That's all I mean - that I think we will get to the bottom of this, and that students here typically are not going to be okay with this sort of discrimination.

Also - let me say - I'm a first year. I only know a few people in the third year class - and this all may sound naive of me, and like I think everything is roses here at Davis. I just know that, from what I've experienced, Davis tries really hard to create a place where this sort of stuff wouldn't be tolerated. And I don't think it is being tolerated. But - I did want to point out my limited personal knowledge about all of this - and offer up a slightly closer view.

sumstorm said:

I guess I am still trying to understand how it happened at all...and how it progressed to any student ever even casting a vote on it. I think that is what I struggle with. Why didn't anyone say 'hey, Dr, all the respect in the world, but this is a violation of this woman's privacy, and this isn't a decision that I should have any level of responsibility in?' I know that if a professor even started to discuss the health status of another student with me, I'd have to cut that off; it isn't my business unless that student shares it with me. I have to say our school is very good about this; they will not release private information without permission. I would have the same reaction even if this was presented in a positive manner; if it wasn't done without express permission of the student, it isn't acceptable.

It doesn't matter how close the student body is, or how cooperative the environment is, that doesn't negate the right to privacy about health information, nor the responsibility of the professor to manage this in an appropriate manner. For me, the fact that it occured at all raises doubts about responsibility and sensitivity. I hope this is just a poor choice that is corrected quickly and effectively and not at all representative of the school's position. Perhaps faculty need to attend some courses of their own.

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Just being a fly in the ointment, but there doesn't appear to be any mention of the student's name in the e-mail so there was no privacy violated. In that case, it is an e-mail asking about how to handle the situation in general. If other people are aware of this pregnancy then that is really not relevant to the privacy issue.

Is it the right way to handle it? No.

But, it does appear that student reps are supposed to be involved in these kinds of decisions (grading exceptions) at Davis so I don't think the professor was wrong to confer with the student reps. The e-mail is kind of ridiculous but we still don't know why that e-mail was sent.

StartingoverVet said:

Just being a fly in the ointment, but there doesn't appear to be any mention of the student's name in the e-mail so there was no privacy violated. In that case, it is an e-mail asking about how to handle the situation in general.

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So you are saying the UC Davis is making it their policy that students' grades are voted on if they have a medical condition? Or are you saying that all students who have ever had medical conditions that have removed them from some portion of class where they have missed some oppurtunity for grades will now be given the same treatment as this student? By suggesting that the student is known to them and has missed exams can be considered identifying characteristics. Much like you can't say 'lets vote on the grades of the red head' when you only have a single red head in attendance and claim that you aren't aware that you are identifying personal information. Especially if it is the case that the student objected in class.

Also, privacy violation isn't just mentioning names. At least according to our school, if you are in clinics and just found out a popular stallion has a condition, you cannot share that info, even in a covert way. You can't walk out the door and say to the stable manager down the street 'wow, we had this amazing stallion with this rare condition' when there was general knowledge that a particular amazing stallion was in your care, because even a potential rumor to that effect would be damaging to the owners of that stallion.

I honestly can't believe that everyone isn't outraged by this!
Come on ppl, if your condition was obvious(as pregnancy usually is) and you were singled out for that, and if your grades depended on what your class thought about your condition(looked down on you or admired you) everyone would have alot more to say about it.

For instance, forget totally about he pregnant part and think of a person with a growing tumor on their face. Now the professor sends out an email asking the class for input on how a someone should be graded because they have to go get a tumor removed from thier face.

As someone who gave birth during college, I may be a little biased, but if i take the pregnancy out of the situation....I'm still mad as all get out.

The only reason this professor had for sending out this email was to humiliate and bring her peers into a mass judging opportunity. What he should have come out and said is "who here thinks this hussy should pass?" What a d!ck

laurafinn said:

Execrable. Seriously.

Brings to mind the policy at my school -- if you are an international student and get pregnant, you get deported tout de suite; that is, unless you agree to have an abortion. How very caveman of New Zealand Immigration.

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Not to threadjack here, but what laurafinn said is very alarming, whether or not you plan on going to school in NZ. If you've got a link, please share.

EDIT: I found an article that discusses this ... wow.