Is USPHS's Pharmacy's Best Kept Secret Legit?

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http://www.usphs.gov/corpslinks/phar...df/secret1.pdf

USPHS/Commissioned Corps has a pay scale table comparing the salary and tax benefits of an officer to that of a pharmacist making $120,000 (at the bottom of the pdf). For those outside of the USPHS/Commissioned Corps, is this an accurate depiction of your take home?

wow. This definetly seems like a route I'd like to take...

Originally Posted by Fatpharm

http://www.usphs.gov/corpslinks/phar...df/secret1.pdf

USPHS/Commissioned Corps has a pay scale table comparing the salary and tax benefits of an officer to that of a pharmacist making $120,000 (at the bottom of the pdf). For those outside of the USPHS/Commissioned Corps, is this an accurate depiction of your take home?

Yes, when you examine the tax breaks it is very close to private sector pay, maybe even more after 3 years. It is a great deal if you stay in for the full 20-30 and get the pension. The major downside is the locations. With a couple exceptions these reservation sites are very rural places with high crime, drug use and unemployment. Good vacation package. I encourage you to call your local PHS pharmacy recruiter and ask for an onsite visit, talk to the pharms there and see if it is for you. The fact that IHS mandates indian preference turns me off. I am a 'best man/woman for the job' type of guy, so I spit at this IHS practice.

For the most part the document is accurate, it is going to vary based on dependents, tax write offs, marriage status, state income tax, retirement contributions...but it is a very fair estimate.

I actually make less than this document projects as private sector pay. After shift differentials and on call it may be similar.

I very seriously considered this. The location of these jobs is what ultimately made my decision for me. Not so much the middle-of-nowhere thing, since I already do that, but that the IHS middles of nowhere are also really far from DH's and my family. It's all about what's important to you, but yes, it is legit.

Also if I had learned about it early enough to take advantage of JR and SRCOSTEP, I would have even more seriously considered it.

Salary and benefits in the uniformed services is exactly as advertised. If you Google "military pay" and "basic allowance for housing" you should be able to find detailed officer compensation based on rank, years of service and housing allowances based on location.

Entry level pharmacists with dependents receive starting taxed and untaxed compensation of around $80,000 and are eligible for a $30,000 sign-on bonus. It is much less than entry level retail pharmacists but PSLF, retirement benefits and increasing pay based on years of service can make up the gap depending on your personal situation.

As mentioned above, the pay is accurate. The pay is also the same in the Army, Navy and Air Force

Originally Posted by spacecowgirl

Also if I had learned about it early enough to take advantage of JR and SRCOSTEP, I would have even more seriously considered it.

JR and SRCOSTEP?

Please explain.

Originally Posted by LazyMooch

JR and SRCOSTEP?

Please explain.

Google is your friend.

Originally Posted by spacecowgirl

Google is your friend.

And Bing is your enemy!

Originally Posted by spacecowgirl

Google is your friend.

But he's a lazy mooch!

What ever happened to Jeeves from askjeeves.com? Now it's just ask.com. Lame.

Why don't you just type that question into ask?

Anyways the PHS is more than just IHS. There's also a number of regulatory jobs in the DC area (eg with the FDA), and also scattered positions in the Bureau of Prisons. I'd be really curious to shadow a BoP pharmacist for a week and see what that environment is like.

Originally Posted by PumpkinSmasher

Yes, when you examine the tax breaks it is very close to private sector pay, maybe even more after 3 years. It is a great deal if you stay in for the full 20-30 and get the pension. The major downside is the locations. With a couple exceptions these reservation sites are very rural places with high crime, drug use and unemployment. Good vacation package. I encourage you to call your local PHS pharmacy recruiter and ask for an onsite visit, talk to the pharms there and see if it is for you. The fact that IHS mandates indian preference turns me off. I am a 'best man/woman for the job' type of guy, so I spit at this IHS practice.

For the most part the document is accurate, it is going to vary based on dependents, tax write offs, marriage status, state income tax, retirement contributions...but it is a very fair estimate.

I actually make less than this document projects as private sector pay. After shift differentials and on call it may be similar.

It should not at all be shocking that there is Native preference for Indian Health Service jobs. And it is a good practice IMHO. Do you speak Navajo? Tlingit? For a lot of people, English is their second language.

And remember, this is throughout the IHS for the large majority of jobs (pharmacy and non-pharmacy) in these hospitals. I like the fact that Natives have the chance to serve other Natives...in a lot of cases they are able to provide more personal care than anyone else...because of their knowledge of their culture, etc.

Out of the 5 IHS pharmacies I've been to as a student, I haven't seen very many Natives working in the pharmacy. I don't think it has a large impact on pharmacy hiring.

Originally Posted by CUninja

It should not at all be shocking that there is Native preference for Indian Health Service jobs. And it is a good practice IMHO. Do you speak Navajo? Tlingit? For a lot of people, English is their second language.

The hiring of an individual outside of skills and merits is a sad practice that goes against what this country is suppose to stand for.

Of course speaking the language is a great skill and gives a person an edge against the competition. Speaking a certain language is a skill, the color of your skin and your ethnicity is not a skill and should have no part in any hiring practice in this country. I would think this would be obvious, especially in a profession where people can die or be seriously injured from a mistake....maybe it is just me but I want the best man/woman for the job based on skills and merits to be taking care of my family/friends/patients/myself. Even if you do not want the most qualified doctor/nurse/pharmacist taking care of these IHS patients, I do.

Originally Posted by PumpkinSmasher

The hiring of an individual outside of skills and merits is a sad practice that goes against what this country is suppose to stand for.

Of course speaking the language is a great skill and gives a person an edge against the competition. Speaking a certain language is a skill, the color of your skin and your ethnicity is not a skill and should have no part in any hiring practice in this country. I would think this would be obvious, especially in a profession where people can die or be seriously injured from a mistake....maybe it is just me but I want the best man/woman for the job based on skills and merits to be taking care of my family/friends/patients/myself. Even if you do not want the most qualified doctor/nurse/pharmacist taking care of these IHS patients, I do.

I'd also hate to think that I was offered a job based on my skin color or gender and not on my skill set. I think either way, a lot of affirmative action programs demean the real accomplishment of people of color and "underrepresented" genders and promote giving jobs not to those most qualified, but those who most fit a certain predetermined quota.

Originally Posted by PumpkinSmasher

The hiring of an individual outside of skills and merits is a sad practice that goes against what this country is suppose to stand for.

Of course speaking the language is a great skill and gives a person an edge against the competition. Speaking a certain language is a skill, the color of your skin and your ethnicity is not a skill and should have no part in any hiring practice in this country. I would think this would be obvious, especially in a profession where people can die or be seriously injured from a mistake....maybe it is just me but I want the best man/woman for the job based on skills and merits to be taking care of my family/friends/patients/myself. Even if you do not want the most qualified doctor/nurse/pharmacist taking care of these IHS patients, I do.

I do agree that hiring an individual outside of their merits is controversial at the least. Affirmative action is not an argument that I wanted to have in this arena. I myself feel that providing the best medical care is paramount. I hope I did not offend you. Your comment that I don't feel like these patients should be treated by the best possible medical professionals is ridiculous.

However, some of the tribes whose patients are served by IHS hospitals are considered sovereign nations operating inside the borders of the United States. These tribes are not sovereign in the same way that a foreign nation is, legally...native sovereignty has been an touchy subject in our nation's past. But as a (somewhat) independent nation...I also feel that Natives should be able to make hiring decisions regarding the treatment of their people. I hope that clarifies my earlier comments.

Originally Posted by CUninja

I do agree that hiring an individual outside of their merits is controversial at the least. Affirmative action is not an argument that I wanted to have in this arena. I myself feel that providing the best medical care is paramount. I hope I did not offend you. Your comment that I don't feel like these patients should be treated by the best possible medical professionals is ridiculous.

However, some of the tribes whose patients are served by IHS hospitals are considered sovereign nations operating inside the borders of the United States. These tribes are not sovereign in the same way that a foreign nation is, legally...native sovereignty has been an touchy subject in our nation's past. But as a (somewhat) independent nation...I also feel that Natives should be able to make hiring decisions regarding the treatment of their people. I hope that clarifies my earlier comments.

First - the PHS is a lot larger than just the IHS - the affirmative action, better known as Indian preference, is only in place with the IHS. Like it or not, it exists and should factor into your consideration. That being said, the other sites for PHS are extremely diverse and offer a lot of opportunities. The PHS underwent a restructuring last year that resulted in a service wide hiring freeze. This has ultimately been lifted and many opportunities are out there.

The link above is absolutely legit - however, it doesn't paint the whole picture. Make sure you do your complete research.

n/m

The information is accurate. But as someone mentioned before, it's for a reason. Most of the jobs are gonna be IHS, which will be really remote and has lots of social-economic issues. Also, the quality of care... Knowing how VA operation is constrained by budget to provide the standard of care, I can't even begin to think what level of care is being provided on reservations with a tiny fraction of VA's budget. I know I for one would become very frustrated if my hands are tied and my patients are getting substandard care.

Here what wikipedia has on IHS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Health_Service

I am pretty dead set on joining the corps and have visited a couple of IHS sites. They can range from really rural, to semi-rural, to big cities. There were not a lot of native american pharmacists but the support staff seemed to be all natives. As a student on government/IHS sites, I have not seen any substandard care. Its more of a managed care situation- go with the cheapest medicine that will cure the patient (which is not any different from any other organizations goals). If any government hospital were providing substandard care, the government would be put up for more lawsuits. Pharmacists have more authority in the USPHS. I want to participate in pharmacy run clinics and USPHS seems like it is a better quality of life.

I was just curious about the take home of the private sector pharmacist because I have not worked a full tax year and so I could not compare my situation to the document. It seemed to good to be true.

I was hoping to be corps by September but from what I'm reading on the USPHS facebook page it will probably take til Winter or even Spring. There is a new process where you have to be confirmed by the Senate plus submit the long application. The freeze was also ~ a year so you have to wait in line.

Originally Posted by Fatpharm

Pharmacists have more authority in the USPHS. I want to participate in pharmacy run clinics and USPHS seems like it is a better quality of life.

I was just curious about the take home of the private sector pharmacist because I have not worked a full tax year and so I could not compare my situation to the document. It seemed to good to be true.

The private sector take home pay is not a secret magical number, you just take gross pay and plug it into a tax calculator considering your home/work state, marriage status and deductions and you will then have the net take home....Here is a calculator: http://www.paycheckcity.com/calculat...alculator.html

I agree the pharmacist authority in IHS is cool, I spent 6 weeks on rotations at one of their sites that has pharmacy residents and a hospital/clinic combination. One thing I noticed about these pharmacy run clinics, at least at my site: The anti-coag clinic would have 1-2 patients per day and often times they would not show up. The same went for metabolic clinic, maybe 1-2 pts per day, often times they did not show up. Opposed to the VA or other hospitals where you will see numerous patients on CHF, DM, ACC, HIV clinic days. I am told the clinics vary from site to site but the low turnout is common even in the larger/most progressive IHS sites: Gallup, NM for example. I am sure these are things you could try to change with the right attitude and initiative, I just think it is important to know that IHS doesn't advertise the true story about the pharmacy clinics at many sites

Originally Posted by PumpkinSmasher

I agree the pharmacist authority in IHS is cool, I spent 6 weeks on rotations at one of their sites that has pharmacy residents and a hospital/clinic combination. One thing I noticed about these pharmacy run clinics, at least at my site: The anti-coag clinic would have 1-2 patients per day and often times they would not show up. The same went for metabolic clinic, maybe 1-2 pts per day, often times they did not show up. Opposed to the VA or other hospitals where you will see numerous patients on CHF, DM, ACC, HIV clinic days. I am told the clinics vary from site to site but the low turnout is common even in the larger/most progressive IHS sites: Gallup, NM for example. I am sure these are things you could try to change with the right attitude and initiative, I just think it is important to know that IHS doesn't advertise the true story about the pharmacy clinics at many sites

Were you bored to tears? I would have been...

It is important to note that the difference in private sector pay vs. USPHSCC can vary greatly depending on your personal situation. A new retail pharmacist who makes $120K and is single with no special tax deductions will take home by my estimate only 12-13% more than a single O-3 USPHSCC pharmacist.

But say you have a non-working spouse, 2 kids, and contribute the max to 401(k) and IRA's. Then the retail pharmacist will be taking home around 30% more -- now that's quite a difference. The key is the more deductions you have, the better it is to make more as a retail pharmacist.

Pendulum will swing back to the USPHSCC pharmacist if they take advantage of PSLF (i.e. have lots of debt) and/or devote 20 years and receive pension benefits.

Originally Posted by joetrisman

Were you bored to tears? I would have been...

I spent time responding to prescriber questions and working on projects. Actually, it was a good clerkship overall. Interesting to learn about the culture and the area.

Originally Posted by Monsterdaddy

Salary and benefits in the uniformed services is exactly as advertised. If you Google "military pay" and "basic allowance for housing" you should be able to find detailed officer compensation based on rank, years of service and housing allowances based on location.

Entry level pharmacists with dependents receive starting taxed and untaxed compensation of around $80,000 and are eligible for a $30,000 sign-on bonus. It is much less than entry level retail pharmacists but PSLF, retirement benefits and increasing pay based on years of service can make up the gap depending on your personal situation.

I worked for IHS as a pharmacist for a couple of years and talked openly with my commissioned corps coworkers about their salaries. Pharmacists start out as O-3 (lieutenant) and are generally stuck at that rank for 4-5 years before they are eligible to be reviewed for a promotion to O-4. Right now, it is fairly competitive to get 0-5 status but they are trying to make clinical positions (running the various clinics-AC,BP etc.) eligible for promotion to O-5 after you have put at least 10 years in. To get O-6 is extremely competitive and that is unlikely to ever change. Also, your ability to make rank depends a lot on how willing your supervisor is to support your promotion. In some places your supervisor may not want you to get promoted because they don't want you to make O-5 and then be in competition with them when the rare O-6 position comes along.
Anyway, one of my single friends who is an O-3 staff pharmacist told me that she brought home $4800/mo and she said that was including all of her benefits. One of my other friends who is a former Navy officer & has several years of experience as a PharmD also came in as an O-3 when she joined. She has a family and seems to be getting quite a bit more per month than my other friend though she didn't give an exact figure. She also was hired in a position that allowed for promotion to O-4 (most O-3s come on as staff pharmacist but she came on as a senior pharmacist) and made her next rank very quickly but I think that was probably due to the fact that she had been an O-5 in the Navy and did every extra project that came along.
I have to say that IHS is a very interesting place to work. You actually get to use your clinical skills but personally I just wasn't that interested in joining the commissioned corps and was getting a pretty low salary as a civilian so I didn't stay with it.

Originally Posted by PumpkinSmasher

The hiring of an individual outside of skills and merits is a sad practice that goes against what this country is suppose to stand for.

I am a Native American PharmD and, as I mentioned earlier, I worked for IHS for a couple of years (I am now a tribal employee). There is reason behind Native American preference. Cultural competency is a big issue with IHS. If you have spent much time in the Native American community you would probably know that there are some (not all) Natives who don't really trust non-Native providers and oftentimes Natives wont be open with providers who they don't connect with.
A lot of Natives were taught by their parents that non-Natives don't really care about you and that they are simply there to do their job and only care about getting you out of their hair. So the patient will simply not tell the provider what is really going on.
IHS provides cultural competency classes to help non-Native workers connect better with the people they serve. They tell you obvious things like direct eye contact can sometimes be construed as a sign of disrespect when dealing with the elders of some tribes and that you need to do a lot of listening and not come off as just wanting to rattle a bunch of information off to get them out of there. True cultural competency only comes from spending time around Natives. I have seen non-Natives who are culturally competent after spending several years in the IHS service.

For whatever reason though, I was the one that Native patients would confide in. They would tell me the stuff that they should have told their doctor and say something like 'I was trying to tell him but he didn't seem like he was listening' (In reality, it was probably something simple like a facial expression that the doc made that struck the patient the wrong way and consequently the patient just sat there silent the rest of the time or decided just to give yes or no answers.) and then I would have to call the doctor.
My husband also worked as a nurse at IHS and he had patients confide all kinds of things to him. I remember him telling me about a woman who told him she had tried to go to a traditional healer to remove a blood clot and the treatment caused her to end up in with an infected wound. She had came to the ER complaining of pain but wasn't planning on telling the doctor about the wound because she didn't feel comfortable talking with him about how it happened .
Since there are still some really traditional Natives out there that have cultural values that are very different from mainstream America, I think that the Native American preference thing helps assure that there will be someone around that the patient feels comfortable talking to

its based off the military pay scale so it ultimately comes down to where you work. if you live in an expensive urban location then you'll have a significantly higher base pay. while in FL this was 1600 tax free, in DC its 2400 tax free. as others have mentioned it depends on your dependents, exemptions, etc. my single friend was takin home 5500/month from WAGs before joining hte PHS (same locale) and bringing home closer to 6200/month. Honestly, if you worked retail in the midwest you would probably take home more than if working as PHS in the same spot. If you worked PHS in the east coast, I-95 corridor near a metro area you'll probably take home more as PHS than working retail. also, if you take the bonus you're committed to 4-years. just something to keep in mind if you go to the IHS/BOP.

Originally Posted by MURMA

I am a Native American PharmD and, as I mentioned earlier, I worked for IHS for a couple of years (I am now a tribal employee). There is reason behind Native American preference. Cultural competency is a big issue with IHS. If you have spent much time in the Native American community you would probably know that there are some (not all) Natives who don't really trust non-Native providers and oftentimes Natives wont be open with providers who they don't connect with.
A lot of Natives were taught by their parents that non-Natives don't really care about you and that they are simply there to do their job and only care about getting you out of their hair. So the patient will simply not tell the provider what is really going on.
IHS provides cultural competency classes to help non-Native workers connect better with the people they serve. They tell you obvious things like direct eye contact can sometimes be construed as a sign of disrespect when dealing with the elders of some tribes and that you need to do a lot of listening and not come off as just wanting to rattle a bunch of information off to get them out of there. True cultural competency only comes from spending time around Natives. I have seen non-Natives who are culturally competent after spending several years in the IHS service.

For whatever reason though, I was the one that Native patients would confide in. They would tell me the stuff that they should have told their doctor and say something like 'I was trying to tell him but he didn't seem like he was listening' (In reality, it was probably something simple like a facial expression that the doc made that struck the patient the wrong way and consequently the patient just sat there silent the rest of the time or decided just to give yes or no answers.) and then I would have to call the doctor.
My husband also worked as a nurse at IHS and he had patients confide all kinds of things to him. I remember him telling me about a woman who told him she had tried to go to a traditional healer to remove a blood clot and the treatment caused her to end up in with an infected wound. She had came to the ER complaining of pain but wasn't planning on telling the doctor about the wound because she didn't feel comfortable talking with him about how it happened .
Since there are still some really traditional Natives out there that have cultural values that are very different from mainstream America, I think that the Native American preference thing helps assure that there will be someone around that the patient feels comfortable talking to

The issue of Indian preference is a lot more complicated than it appears. I can appreciate what you have said above, having seen these interactions first hand. I have also seen it abused. Talking about its benefits allows us all to understand it better.

Hello All,

This was a great thread as I too have been considering US PHS to get rid of my extensive debts.

However I was troubled to hear the comments in this day and age assuming that any Indian Preference or Affirmative Action program = hiring candidates that are not qualified in order to meet a quota. While unfortunately many companies and local govts probably interpreted these initiatives as quotas, or "reverse discrimination," in the past; that doesn't make it true now. They are there to even the playing field for qualified minorities that systematically get overlooked because of their skin color (although they DO have the skills/experience/education).

AA or Indian Preference means that IF you have two EQUALLY qualified candidates and one can also meet the AA/Indian Preference, then the company may chose the AA/Indian Preference candidate.

As a hiring manager for over 10 years, I know this is true - as every company I have worked for keeps documentation to show that the candidate hired is the most qualified, or was picked from a pool of candidates that were all equally qualified - most companies that don't want lawsuits do this whether they hire an underrepresented minority or not.

Companies do have to report the "numbers" for the different ethnicities, but they don't get in trouble that the "quota" isn't reached if they have proof that the hiring process is always fair.

Case in point: in the state where I live, the AA population is about 20%. However, in the Pharmacy schools I assure you there were NOT 20 AA for each 100 students, more like 2-3 in a class of 150 (and they were extremely bright might I add). Furthermore, at the major teaching hospitals I've worked for I NEVER saw anything close to 20% AA. For example, one hospital where we had over 100 pharmacists, we all knew who the black pharmacists where... all 3 of them.

These companies are not just meeting quotas. They maybe got away with that in the past, but I'm not convinced that goes on now (except maybe in a small, family-owned business anythings possible).

Anyways, I guess I'm saying I respectfully disagree with the broad comments mentioned on this board about quotas... now back to US PHS pay:

What about other agencies for pharmacists, like FDA, CDC, others? I know those are more competitive jobs, so I'm assuming the pay is not that great? But how do they compare against corresponding jobs in the Pharma industry?

Thanks everyone

Last time I checked USPHS had a hiring freeze on all except doctors and dentists. There was a bulletin posted on the main page indicating this.

Correct. They are not considering any pharmacists right now unless your application was submitted before 12/31/11 or if you are chosen as an IHS resident (which also fast tracks your application).

Stupid question: Just wondering if the hiring freeze still applies to applicants who weren't matched to IHS residency programs?

Originally Posted by ravingrabbid

Stupid question: Just wondering if the hiring freeze still applies to applicants who weren't matched to IHS residency programs?

Well a certain portion of IHS positions will never be subject to (us gov) hiring freezes as they are employed directly by the tribes. So at least there's that.

are there any Bureau of Prison pharmacists who can share what it's like to work in the prisons?

I have a dilemma - not a bad one - I have been a civilian pharmacist at an IHS site with an application to the USPHS that has been in process for more than a year. I am underpaid and being gouged for housing at this site, but have had hopes of enlisting with the USPHS. However, I now have a job offer to work at a very forward-thinking independant pharmacy in Colorado - with autonomy to work with doctors and patients in the community with minimal politics. Any thoughts?

At mid-years 2011, two IHS officers said there would be a freeze on all new PHS applicants after Jan 1,2012 that would last approximately 2 years. He said they currently had 2000 unprocessed applicants in file. The only path into the PHS would be residencies (I tried that and failed) or native american ancestry. This includes the FDA, BOP, IHS, etc.

An application is at least 50 pages long.
It looks like a great job, but if you check with temp companies, they fill the posts with floating pharmacists frequently.

Originally Posted by flutedawgPharmD

Hello All,


AA or Indian Preference means that IF you have two EQUALLY qualified candidates and one can also meet the AA/Indian Preference, then the company may chose the AA/Indian Preference candidate.

Indian Preference means as long as the person meets the minimum requirements, they will get the job, no matter who the other people are. It doesn't matter if the candidates are equal or not.

Originally Posted by type b pharmD

Well a certain portion of IHS positions will never be subject to (us gov) hiring freezes as they are employed directly by the tribes. So at least there's that.

Originally Posted by ellwoodis

At mid-years 2011, two IHS officers said there would be a freeze on all new PHS applicants after Jan 1,2012 that would last approximately 2 years. He said they currently had 2000 unprocessed applicants in file. The only path into the PHS would be residencies (I tried that and failed) or native american ancestry. This includes the FDA, BOP, IHS, etc.

The public health service has civilian workers and Commissioned Corps Officers. The freeze is on the Commissioned Corps, but not the federal civilian system.