Hpsp Faq

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Originally Posted by veyep

If you already have a doctorate degree once going to medical school... Are you going to be ranked as a captain from first year of medical school? How are the benefits different if you are in that situation?

No you are still O1 through school, once you graduate you will be a O3 with the years spent in your doctorate toward your promotion to O4.

For the automatic acceptance,

Is that just for the undergrad GPA or can it be applied to Masters GPA.

Also, the MCAT min is a 21.

Hello all, I am applying for a navy hpsp scholarship and will soon fund out if I get it. My question: at what point do I make a final commitment to the navy, ie, can I accept the scholarship right away and turn it down at a later date before school starts and face no penalties? If not, does anyone know how long I can hold on to it before I have to decide? I ask because I am still waiting to hear back about financial aid from the schools I got in to. Thanks for your help!

Originally Posted by AJski

Hello all, I am applying for a navy hpsp scholarship and will soon fund out if I get it. My question: at what point do I make a final commitment to the navy, ie, can I accept the scholarship right away and turn it down at a later date before school starts and face no penalties? If not, does anyone know how long I can hold on to it before I have to decide? I ask because I am still waiting to hear back about financial aid from the schools I got in to. Thanks for your help!

This is from the Army perspective, but milmed is milmed. Assume you will not be able to get out of your contract once you sign. Some may tell you that as long as you have not taken money, you can get out; this is not automatically true. Personal antidotes aside, the military is under no obligation to release you from your contract so do not sign your contract unless you are 100% ready to commit.

I know you have probably heard and read this a million times, so here is one-million and one; do not use HPSP if you are not serious about military life. Deployment, loss of personal freedom, separation from family and love ones, loss of income are all ready consequences of HPSP.

Also, don't waste the Navy's time and scholarships. There is someone standing behind you who would love the 4 year scholarship. If you don't know, step aside and get a 3 year scholarship next year or use FAP for loan reimbursement after med school and serve.

Don't mean to sound like an as$$, just want to keep you from making a decision that would be bad for you.

Mahalo,
MB

Originally Posted by 2000 Man

I heard from other sources that the stipend is counted toward the annual cost of attendance (i.e. both tuition and living expenses) and if the stipend (before taxes) is more than or equal to the cost of living budget you can not borrow any more in federal loans. This sucks (if it is true) as you will come out short after taxes are deducted. So it seems some schools don't view the stipend as taxable income/wages and tack it onto your total award. Anyone have this happen to them or know if it is true or not?

According to my school's financial aid officer, the stipend is considered financial aid for the purposes of determining your eligibility for student loans. Therefore, if your stipend + tuition puts you over the school's COA, then the school is not legally able to certify any additional loans (certainly not federal loans, as they consider that "double-dipping").

I haven't had much success with the argument that the stipend is taxable income, and therefore shouldn't count as aid.

Hi, is there any possible way to guarantee being a Navy flight surgeon when doing a GMO. If I do a 3 year HPSP, will I be able to do all of my service as a flight surgeon? Will it be a 2 year tour and then a 1 year tour or a grand 3 year tour? Will I be assigned to a fighter squadron or cargo planes (please give the odds of being assigned to each)?

Will I or can I be reassigned to a another squadron if chosen to do so. What are the chances of becoming a flight surgeon when doing GMO tours and what other options do I have if I do not get to be a flight surgeon, I heard about underwater medicine (SEALs)?

Is the Navy phasing out flight surgeons or GMO tours in general? I am not interested in doing residency in the military.

Also,

Can I be forced to do a residency if I did a 3 year Navy HPSP, like can they not give me a GMO and tell me you have to do a residency?


Thank you for any helpful responses and replies.

This is a great source of info, but I am having trouble finding an answer that involves the Army HPSP requirements for pharmacy. My wife has nearly completed the pre req courses to apply for the pharmacy schools she has been looking at. These schools do not require her to have a bachelor's degree to attend. My question is, will she be eligible for HPSP if she gets accepted to pharmacy school but has not attained a bachelor's degree. I understand on the go army website it does list a bachelor's degree as a requirement, so I called three different army medical recruiters just to verify. The answers I recieved; "Im not sure", "maybe", "I dont know, I will try to find out and call you back". I didnt think this was such a hard question to find an answer for so Im hoping I can find it here, thanks.

Originally Posted by Bargle

This is a great source of info, but I am having trouble finding an answer that involves the Army HPSP requirements for pharmacy. My wife has nearly completed the pre req courses to apply for the pharmacy schools she has been looking at. These schools do not require her to have a bachelor's degree to attend. My question is, will she be eligible for HPSP if she gets accepted to pharmacy school but has not attained a bachelor's degree. I understand on the go army website it does list a bachelor's degree as a requirement, so I called three different army medical recruiters just to verify. The answers I recieved; "Im not sure", "maybe", "I dont know, I will try to find out and call you back". I didnt think this was such a hard question to find an answer for so Im hoping I can find it here, thanks.

Currently the Army HPSP is only available to pharmacy students who have an Army ROTC scholarship that has been exhausted. Meaning, that you have to have a ROTC scholarship for Pharm/Pharm D and used all four years of said scholarship in pursuit of the degree. Prior to the end of your third year you can apply for the last two years of the didactic training via the HPSP. In short, there is no Army HPSP for Pharmacy students right off the streets.

If you need more information, or a good POC for recruiting you are welcome to PM me.

do I have any chance to get in with a 3.2-3.3 overall GPA? I'm in a combined BS/MD program and am NOT allowed to take the MCAT

I'm a current junior and could possibly do the 2 year ROTC program + a 2nd degree or MPH if that would help my chances with HPSP

Originally Posted by prepremed

do I have any chance to get in with a 3.2-3.3 overall GPA? I'm in a combined BS/MD program and am NOT allowed to take the MCAT

I'm a current junior and could possibly do the 2 year ROTC program + a 2nd degree or MPH if that would help my chances with HPSP

Depends on which service, but if you are already in an MD program, chances are OK. They will want to see your SATs so they have an idea of how you perform on standardized tests.

Hey all,

I have a unique situation and was looking for some info for those that have received the HPSP or are currently receiving it.

I joined the ROTC (Army) in 2007 to help pay for undergrad and with a general interest in serving my country. I was in the program and fulfilled my commitments until July 2008 when I was diagnosed with Hodgkin's Lymphoma and was subsequently discharged due to the medical condition. I took a year off school and went back and finished my degree but without the ROTC or any commitment to the Army.

I have been accepted to A.T Still KCOM and was looking at the HPSP. My questions are:

My discharge papers say that I can reapply for commission after a five year cancer free time period. So, would my prior ROTC help me get the HPSP? Does anyone know if the HPSP contracts say which cancers are automatic disqualifiers? Would having a history of cancer (if it's not an automatic disqualifier) hinder my acceptance at all? (fear of future recurrence, unable to fulfill my obligation?)

Part of taking the HPSP is being commissioned, so I would say since your discharge papers put a stipulation on you being commissioned you would have to wait until those were met. Reading my contract I see:

2."I understand that I will commission into the IRR in an inactive status in the rank of Second Lieutenant...."

Regarding Medical Waivers:

Is asthma a waiverable condition for HPSP?

My story:
I have never been clinically diagnosed with asthma, however I was medically disqualified at MEPS in 2004. The head physician at the time stated that one item in my medical history somehow "proved" that I had severe asthma and all of my subsequent waiver applications were denied.

In my favor:
1) I have taken a metacholine challenge test which was negative.
2) I have never used an inhaler
3) I meet all of the criteria in 11.d.(2)(a)-(d) from
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/c...df/613003p.pdf
4) I have worked as a Forest Service firefighter for the intervening seven years, exposed to every natural asthma trigger I can think of
5) A rough translation of my forest service PFT scores to the army PFT would give me a 300+ score.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by ThreadStalker

Regarding Medical Waivers:

Is asthma a waiverable condition for HPSP?

My story:
I have never been clinically diagnosed with asthma, however I was medically disqualified at MEPS in 2004. The head physician at the time stated that one item in my medical history somehow "proved" that I had severe asthma and all of my subsequent waiver applications were denied.

In my favor:
1) I have taken a metacholine challenge test which was negative.
2) I have never used an inhaler
3) I meet all of the criteria in 11.d.(2)(a)-(d) from
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/c...df/613003p.pdf
4) I have worked as a Forest Service firefighter for the intervening seven years, exposed to every natural asthma trigger I can think of
5) A rough translation of my forest service PFT scores to the army PFT would give me a 300+ score.

Thoughts?

You should be ok. Reapply - and if the issue comes up, have them send you to a military Allergist or Pulmonologist for clearance -

Good luck.

A few questions for current HPSPers that were active enlisted Army

- Can the application for HPSP be processed with a LOA and a planned degree date before matriculation?

- Medical insurance during school, is it covered by the scholorship or do I keep my current Tricare?

-Can OBC be scheduled to attend before first year?

-When is the bonus given out?

-Has anyone used GI bill with HPSP for living expenses? Is it possible? My current understanding should allow it (that doen't mean much though)

-Are travel expenses covered for ADT during the 45days?

-Is moving to the school or any required moves during school (ie 3,4 yr at second location) considered PCSs that would be covered?

I am sure I will have many more questions later but those are some of the ones I am thinking about right now

Originally Posted by carp56

A few questions for current HPSPers that were active enlisted Army

- Can the application for HPSP be processed with a LOA and a planned degree date before matriculation?
The app can be processed with a LOA before matriculation
- Medical insurance during school, is it covered by the scholorship or do I keep my current Tricare?
You cannot keep Tricare but the scholarship will reimburse you for your own insurance, I just got school insurance and they reimburse directly to the school
-Can OBC be scheduled to attend before first year?
Yes, but you need to get accepted into the program and commissioned early to get a spot. I would imagine most spots are filled by now.
-When is the bonus given out?
As long as your paperwork is in order you get the stipend and bonus once you matriculate. The stipend starts on your first day of classes and you get paid on the 1st and 15th. The comes in 3 payments a few days apart a week or two after classes begin.
-Has anyone used GI bill with HPSP for living expenses? Is it possible? My current understanding should allow it (that doen't mean much though)
There is a whole thread on here about this...something about the HPSP GIBILL Juggernaut.
-Are travel expenses covered for ADT during the 45days?
Yes, either to and from home or to and from school.
-Is moving to the school or any required moves during school (ie 3,4 yr at second location) considered PCSs that would be covered?
Nope, youre on IRR. You dont get money to move until you go active duty, whether its residency or post-residency to your first duty station
I am sure I will have many more questions later but those are some of the ones I am thinking about right now

Not prior enlisted

Hey, I'm not sure if there's a separate thread for this or not, but does anyone know anything about HPSP for Veterinary Medicine?

I heard you can only do it for 3 years not 4, is that true? And for the active duty, would we be working as part of the Veterinary Corps? What exactly would we be doing? I assume we'd be working on working dogs, and maybe a few horses, and other base pets basically. Is that true? Is there anyone who has or is doing the Veterinary version of HPSP? I would like to know more. Thanks in advance.

What about for specialization? I'm very interested in pursuing a specialty after Veterinary Medical school. If I were a part of HPSP, could I still do that? Would that extend or alter in any way the requirements for payback to the army?

Originally Posted by Shina

Hey, I'm not sure if there's a separate thread for this or not, but does anyone know anything about HPSP for Veterinary Medicine?

I heard you can only do it for 3 years not 4, is that true? And for the active duty, would we be working as part of the Veterinary Corps? What exactly would we be doing? I assume we'd be working on working dogs, and maybe a few horses, and other base pets basically. Is that true? Is there anyone who has or is doing the Veterinary version of HPSP? I would like to know more. Thanks in advance.

What about for specialization? I'm very interested in pursuing a specialty after Veterinary Medical school. If I were a part of HPSP, could I still do that? Would that extend or alter in any way the requirements for payback to the army?

http://vetopportunities.amedd.army.m.../hpsp_faq.html
not sure if this will answer all your questions but its a start

Originally Posted by Shina

Hey, I'm not sure if there's a separate thread for this or not, but does anyone know anything about HPSP for Veterinary Medicine?

I heard you can only do it for 3 years not 4, is that true? And for the active duty, would we be working as part of the Veterinary Corps? What exactly would we be doing? I assume we'd be working on working dogs, and maybe a few horses, and other base pets basically. Is that true? Is there anyone who has or is doing the Veterinary version of HPSP? I would like to know more. Thanks in advance.

What about for specialization? I'm very interested in pursuing a specialty after Veterinary Medical school. If I were a part of HPSP, could I still do that? Would that extend or alter in any way the requirements for payback to the army?

Correct, there's no 4 year scholarship; it's just the 3-for-3 or 2-for-3 in vet school.

Primary focus during the first 2 years is working dogs, pets at the base, some show horses, and leading food safety teams (inspection). The third year is highly variable (some people deploy overseas, humanitarian aid or outbreaks, others stay domestic). After that you can specialize if you stay in.

Army vet board certification options are surgery, internal med, pathology, lab animal, radiology, and emergency/critical care. These residencies are typically 2-3 years. This would extend your obligation a variable amount (depending on the training, usually 4-5 years).

The link that teacherman84 posted is VERY helpful, but some of the info is out of date by a couple years. Keep your eyes out for the change from the veterinary corps as it eventually merges with the public health command (I don't know all about this, it's unclear still).

Good luck!

Hi guys, I am sorry to interrupt an ongoing discussion here at this thread, but I have one question want to ask about HPSP.

I know it pays for all the tuition and fee, but I want to know, DOES IT PAY FOR THE HOUSING AS WELL?? Let say I want to dorm at my school, which cost around $13200 a year, do military pay that for me too?

II recently start considering HPSP because of MONEY. YES, MONEY! I thought the military is paying for tuition AND my housing AND $2000 stipend a month. Yet as I keep on reading more about it, there didn't mention any thing about medical school housing, and they seem to expect us using the stipend to pay for the housing. Is that true???

Again, I will be appreciated if any of you can clear this up for me. Thank you!

Originally Posted by crazyboy123

Hi guys, I am sorry to interrupt an ongoing discussion here at this thread, but I have one question want to ask about HPSP.

I know it pays for all the tuition and fee, but I want to know, DOES IT PAY FOR THE HOUSING AS WELL?? Let say I want to dorm at my school, which cost around $13200 a year, do military pay that for me too?

II recently start considering HPSP because of MONEY. YES, MONEY! I thought the military is paying for tuition AND my housing AND $2000 stipend a month. Yet as I keep on reading more about it, there didn't mention any thing about medical school housing, and they seem to expect us using the stipend to pay for the housing. Is that true???

Again, I will be appreciated if any of you can clear this up for me. Thank you!

No, housing is not covered. You get tuition, fees, insurance, and books/supplies covered as well as the 2k/month stipend. You can easily survive on 2k/month if you have no dependents. If you do, take a little out in loans and youll be fine.

Also, like everyone will tell you, dont do this just for the money. Yes money is a big plus, but just dont let that be the only reason and make sure you weigh the good and the bad.

Originally Posted by teacherman84

No, housing is not covered. You get tuition, fees, insurance, and books/supplies covered as well as the 2k/month stipend. You can easily survive on 2k/month if you have no dependents. If you do, take a little out in loans and youll be fine.

Also, like everyone will tell you, dont do this just for the money. Yes money is a big plus, but just dont let that be the only reason and make sure you weigh the good and the bad.

Thank you very much for your response, it really clears things up for me. Are you taking the HPSP??

Originally Posted by crazyboy123

Thank you very much for your response, it really clears things up for me. Are you taking the HPSP??

Yes, I am currently on the scholarship.

Thank you for posting the link teacherman84 and thank you scottydu for your answers! That clarifies it a lot more. I couldn't find too much info about the Veterinary Med version of HPSP since most people are doing Med. I really appreciate it.

Does anyone know how to find a healthcare recruiter for your area? or do we go talk to a regular recruiter first?

Originally Posted by Chyea

Does anyone know how to find a healthcare recruiter for your area? or do we go talk to a regular recruiter first?

1-800 872 2769 Ext 183

Originally Posted by USArmyHPSP

1-800 872 2769 Ext 183

Thanks!

Originally Posted by teacherman84

No, housing is not covered. You get tuition, insurance, fees, and books/supplies covered as well as the 2k/month stipend. You can easily survive on 2k/month if you have no dependents. If you do, take a little out in loans and youll be fine.

Also, like everyone will tell you, dont do this just for the money. Yes money is a big plus, but just dont let that be the only reason and make sure you weigh the good and the bad.

Does anyone know if this insurance covers spouses as well?

Originally Posted by carp56

Does anyone know if this insurance covers spouses as well?

No dependents aren't covered. They reimburse only for the student. You can get a family plan and they will reimburse what it would cost to insure just you.

I am a sophomore in college, and I was hearing rumors floating around that you could commit to the HPSP program as and undergrad. Thinking this was true I went to my local recruiting office and talked to some of the Army recruiters. At first, they had no idea what the HPSP program was, and basically said the only option for me to get my foot in to that medical door was to join the reserves. Today, I got a few things clarified by the healthcare recruiter, you cannot commit as and undergrad, and that the reserves is an option, however you must request a 368 to your units commander to leave. I am very interested and have my heart set on applying for the scholarship; I just want to do everything in my power to achieve that goal.

My questions:

Would joining the reserves be the right decision? (make me "stand out")
What are the chances of the 368 getting accepted?

Originally Posted by JWyro

I am a sophomore in college, and I was hearing rumors floating around that you could commit to the HPSP program as and undergrad. Thinking this was true I went to my local recruiting office and talked to some of the Army recruiters. At first, they had no idea what the HPSP program was, and basically said the only option for me to get my foot in to that medical door was to join the reserves. Today, I got a few things clarified by the healthcare recruiter, you cannot commit as and undergrad, and that the reserves is an option, however you must request a 368 to your units commander to leave. I am very interested and have my heart set on applying for the scholarship; I just want to do everything in my power to achieve that goal.

My questions:

Would joining the reserves be the right decision? (make me "stand out")
What are the chances of the 368 getting accepted?

Don't join the reserves to get the scholarship. The only thing you need to "stand out" is get an MCAT above 30 and a gpa above a 3.6 (or maybe 3.7). Seriously. That is an auto-select, and as long as you apply early enough so there are still scholarships, you will get one (not counting any physical or background check problems).

Originally Posted by Barcu

Don't join the reserves to get the scholarship. The only thing you need to "stand out" is get an MCAT above 30 and a gpa above a 3.6 (or maybe 3.7). Seriously. That is an auto-select, and as long as you apply early enough so there are still scholarships, you will get one (not counting any physical or background check problems).

I want to add to this response. I am currently a US Army Healthcare Recruiter out of Louisiana and am "on mission" for an HPSP contract. I am also currently pursuing a biochemistry degree with hopes of being awarded the HPSP when the time comes. (Hence, the reason I came upon this site.) I agree with the first part of the answer, don't bother with the reserves, you wouldn't be in long enough before attending med school for your rank to account for anything. Also, there is always the chance that the unit you join may deploy or go on an extended training exercise which could delay your undergrad completion. Unfortunately, many regular recruiters do not know about the programs that the Army Medical Department (AMEDD) offers, i.e. HPSP, and simply tell you how they can work with you using the options available to them, these are not always in your best interest for you to achieve your own personal goals.

As far as the "auto-select" comment, unfortunately we no longer have Automatic Acceptance Criteria (AAC) for both medical or dental HPSP. This guidance came out last week. This is not to say that it won't change next year, but as of right now we do not have it to offer. That said, the minimum to apply is an MCAT of 24 with "8"s in the verbal, phys science, and bio science areas and a GPA of 3.2 (up from 3.0 two weeks ago.) However, you are able to apply for the scholarship if you score a 21 on the MCAT and have "7"s in the verbal, phys science, and bio science but the recruiter will have to submit for a Minimum Acceptance Criteria waiver. Follow Barcu's advice about the 30 MCAT and 3.6-3.7 GPA to stand out. Also, the physicians who look over the HPSP packets we send to the board look at the "whole person concept". What volunteer work have you done? What organizations are you a part of? How well is your statement of motivation written as to why you want to become an MD and achieve it through the Army? And of course as was mentioned, do you have any medical or prior law violation issues. (And no, depending on the issue or circumstance, those are not always disqualifiers.)

Your best bet is to stay in contact with the Healthcare Recruiters to stay abreast of any new changes. If you have any other questions you are more than welcome to PM me.

Hello, I am interested in the HPSP scholarship and had a few questions. I keep reading about these Minimums(mcat 21, GPA 3.2) for getting a scholarship. I have a 29 MCAT but a 3.0 GPA. I am applying to Osteopathic schools next year. I have some good ECs. Does my 3.0 discount me from being accepted for one of the scholarships?

Also, if I am admitted to a Medical school(lets say early October) before I even apply to the HPSP then would the branch I apply to accept me for one of their their scholarships?

Finally, what are the steps in the application process? Do they reject people before they are allowed to tryout for the physical? I would appreciate any information

Originally Posted by stretch30244

I want to add to this response. I am currently a US Army Healthcare Recruiter out of Louisiana and am "on mission" for an HPSP contract. I am also currently pursuing a biochemistry degree with hopes of being awarded the HPSP when the time comes. (Hence, the reason I came upon this site.) I agree with the first part of the answer, don't bother with the reserves, you wouldn't be in long enough before attending med school for your rank to account for anything. Also, there is always the chance that the unit you join may deploy or go on an extended training exercise which could delay your undergrad completion. Unfortunately, many regular recruiters do not know about the programs that the Army Medical Department (AMEDD) offers, i.e. HPSP, and simply tell you how they can work with you using the options available to them, these are not always in your best interest for you to achieve your own personal goals.

As far as the "auto-select" comment, unfortunately we no longer have Automatic Acceptance Criteria (AAC) for both medical or dental HPSP. This guidance came out last week. This is not to say that it won't change next year, but as of right now we do not have it to offer. That said, the minimum to apply is an MCAT of 21 and a GPA of 3.2 (up from 3.0 two weeks ago.) Follow Barcu's advice about the 30 MCAT and 3.6-3.7 GPA to stand out. Also, the physicians who look over the HPSP packets we send to the board look at the "whole person concept". What volunteer work have you done? What organizations are you a part of? How well is your statement of motivation written as to why you want to become an MD and achieve it through the Army? And of course as was mentioned, do you have any medical or prior law violation issues. (And no, depending on the issue or circumstance, those are not always disqualifiers.)

Your best bet is to stay in contact with the Healthcare Recruiters to stay abreast of any new changes. If you have any other questions you are more than welcome to PM me.

yep the "whole person" concept - 2 arms, 2 legs, hopefully a head, and an acceptance to on of the DO metastatic schools. Only the best for the DOD.

Originally Posted by a1qwerty55

yep the "whole person" concept - 2 arms, 2 legs, hopefully a head, and an acceptance to on of the DO metastatic schools. Only the best for the DOD.

So the DOD would be better off only accepting MD students? Because EVERYONE knows that people at DO school are only there because they can't get into MD, right??

Originally Posted by Charlie0318

So the DOD would be better off only accepting MD students? Because EVERYONE knows that people at DO school are only there because they can't get into MD, right??

Yes.

While certainly some students I sure actually strive to go to a DO school rather than an MD program, for most it is the path of least resistance... I'm doubting most DO's purposely dreamed of going to a start up medical school in Harlem or one in a strip mall. Why would you want to go to one of those stodgy MD schools and have a better chance of getting a non primary care residency?

Originally Posted by a1qwerty55

Yes.

While certainly some students I sure actually strive to go to a DO school rather than an MD program, for most it is the path of least resistance... I'm doubting most DO's purposely dreamed of going to a start up medical school in Harlem or one in a strip mall. Why would you want to go to one of those stodgy MD schools and have a better chance of getting a non primary care residency?

Talk about arrogance and ignorance incarnate.

I wonder if it is borne of insecurity or just plain stupidity?

Originally Posted by Charlie0318

Talk about arrogance and ignorance incarnate.

I wonder if it is borne of insecurity or just plain stupidity?

Much as I like a good tussle, we've kind of done this one to death in this forum before so....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0

I can't resist jumping in here.

Back in the day, the 29 on the MCAT would probably have disqualified you, now it is such a rarity thanks to our osteopathic brethren that it constitutes an "automatic acceptance" into the HPSP. Your GPA is even less impressive.

The fact that the .mil recruits almost exclusively from D.O. schools now is not a good thing, and the "minimum standards" as cited by our recruiter friend are downright embarrassing.

This is a direct reflection on the undesirability of military medicine as a career or even a 4 year commitment for most allopathic applicants. The .mil, of course, instead of changing things, gleefully looks the other way as it ushers half of the incoming class from Lake Erie-fill in the blank campus through MEPS.

I think my favorite D.O. school is the new for profit monstrosity, "RVU-COM." What sweet irony!

Originally Posted by 61November

I can't resist jumping in here.

Back in the day, the 29 on the MCAT would probably have disqualified you, now it is such a rarity thanks to our osteopathic brethren that it constitutes an "automatic acceptance" into the HPSP. Your GPA is even less impressive.

The fact that the .mil recruits almost exclusively from D.O. schools now is not a good thing, and the "minimum standards" as cited by our recruiter friend are downright embarrassing.

This is a direct reflection on the undesirability of military medicine as a career or even a 4 year commitment for most allopathic applicants. The .mil, of course, instead of changing things, gleefully looks the other way as it ushers half of the incoming class from Lake Erie-fill in the blank campus through MEPS.

I think my favorite D.O. school is the new for profit monstrosity, "RVU-COM." What sweet irony!

The problem is that US allopathic schools don't produce anywhere near enough doctors. Thanks to DO schools, we no longer have to hire 1/3 of our physicians from foreign medical schools. I never understood why some MD's think DO schoold are terrible, but seem more than happy with spending tax payer money to train MD's from India.

Furthermore, isn't it much more horrible that HPSP has so few MD's from Ivy league institutions these days? Now the military has to settle for MD's from old state U. Talk about sacrificing quality with these idiots who couldn't get into a competitive med school . . . .

Originally Posted by Mirror Form

The problem is that US allopathic schools don't produce anywhere near enough doctors. Thanks to DO schools, we no longer have to hire 1/3 of our physicians from foreign medical schools. I never understood why some MD's think DO schoold are terrible, but seem more than happy with spending tax payer money to train MD's from India.

Furthermore, isn't it much more horrible that HPSP has so few MD's from Ivy league institutions these days? Now the military has to settle for MD's from old state U. Talk about sacrificing quality with these idiots who couldn't get into a competitive med school . . . .

Well for starters I do think it is disappointing that few, if any Ivy league med school grads choose HPSP. These are the proverbial "cream of the crop" and it was not uncommon in the 80's and 90's to find them well represented in military medicine. Their absence is a loss, to be sure.

Also, "state U" allopathic schools are usually very competitive (California comes to mind) b/c of their low tuition compared to Tufts, for instance. Ironically, these students also seldom join the military b/c their debt load is comparatively light.

The absence of these demographic groups reflects very poorly upon military medicine. Essentially it tells us that the cream of the crop want to have nothing to do with a system fraught with difficulties, bureaucracy, poor pay, and uncertainty. For the "state U" folks as you call them it would seem to tell us that patriotism and sense of duty is not a large factor in considering HPSP anymore. It's the money, stupid. Of course this is borne out by the glut of D.O's who flock to mil med b/c of the exorbitant costs of their schools. They are also attracted by the lack of discrimination within the DOD with regards to residency availability. Conversely, this lack of discrimination turns some MD students off and so they do not apply for the "scholarship." Finally, the people who join the .Mil strictly for the money are the ones most likely to end up embittered and unhappy.

If everybody would stop being so damn PC for a second and consider the present situation, they'd be alarmed. What does it say about an organization that it is forced to rely on sub-par applicants to fill its quota? Are the ridiculous "minimum" standards for application (MCAT 21, GPA 3.2!!!!????) a good thing? Is it better to lower the bar, as military medicine has, while consistently advertising the monetary and residency benefits of the resulting indentured servitude? Qualified applicants, it would seem, are not fooled.

I think the military would do better to be honest and upfront. Tell the lemmings that there is a good chance they won't get their residency of choice. Be open about GMO tours. Do not skirt the fact that for many specialists, military medicine is a financial black hole, and a considerable sacrifice.

Emphasize the SACRIFICE. Emphasize duty to country and kin. Emphasize honor and courage. Military service of any type, at this juncture in our history, is ennobling. These are the things that make daily life in the military livable, and the stuff you can look back on with pride.

//end rant

Originally Posted by 61November

Well for starters I do think it is disappointing that few, if any Ivy league med school grads choose HPSP. These are the proverbial "cream of the crop" and it was not uncommon in the 80's and 90's to find them well represented in military medicine. Their absence is a loss, to be sure.

Also, "state U" allopathic schools are usually very competitive (California comes to mind) b/c of their low tuition compared to Tufts, for instance. Ironically, these students also seldom join the military b/c their debt load is comparatively light.

The absence of these demographic groups reflects very poorly upon military medicine. Essentially it tells us that the cream of the crop want to have nothing to do with a system fraught with difficulties, bureaucracy, poor pay, and uncertainty. For the "state U" folks as you call them it would seem to tell us that patriotism and sense of duty is not a large factor in considering HPSP anymore. It's the money, stupid. Of course this is borne out by the glut of D.O's who flock to mil med b/c of the exorbitant costs of their schools. They are also attracted by the lack of discrimination within the DOD with regards to residency availability. Conversely, this lack of discrimination turns some MD students off and so they do not apply for the "scholarship." Finally, the people who join the .Mil strictly for the money are the ones most likely to end up embittered and unhappy.

If everybody would stop being so damn PC for a second and consider the present situation, they'd be alarmed. What does it say about an organization that it is forced to rely on sub-par applicants to fill its quota? Are the ridiculous "minimum" standards for application (MCAT 21, GPA 3.2!!!!????) a good thing? Is it better to lower the bar, as military medicine has, while consistently advertising the monetary and residency benefits of the resulting indentured servitude? Qualified applicants, it would seem, are not fooled.

I think the military would do better to be honest and upfront. Tell the lemmings that there is a good chance they won't get their residency of choice. Be open about GMO tours. Do not skirt the fact that for many specialists, military medicine is a financial black hole, and a considerable sacrifice.

They really don't need to. The word is out, in fact it has been for a long time. People know already what the score is, especially the smart people who know they have alternatives. And forget spinning sacrifice. That is part of the problem: your sacrifices are neither recognized, nor appreciated nor rewarded. That is what you call a tough sell.

Originally Posted by 61November

Emphasize the SACRIFICE. Emphasize duty to country and kin. Emphasize honor and courage. Military service of any type, at this juncture in our history, is ennobling. These are the things that make daily life in the military livable, and the stuff you can look back on with pride.

//end rant

Selling "sacrifice" without any reciprocation is a fraud. Demanding "sacrifices" from some but not others gives the lie to the notion of fairness and decency. Unfortunately that is the problem: when your organization is perceived as dishonest, unfair and indecent, people don't want much to do with you.

They have their work cut out for them.

Originally Posted by Mirror Form

The problem is that US allopathic schools don't produce anywhere near enough doctors. Thanks to DO schools, we no longer have to hire 1/3 of our physicians from foreign medical schools. I never understood why some MD's think DO schoold are terrible, but seem more than happy with spending tax payer money to train MD's from India.

In fairness, the physicians in U.S. allopathic residency programs from foreign medical schools (India included) are some of the best I've come across. In some of the bottom-of-the-barrel malignant programs you have questionable-admission folks who can hardly speak English, but most of the ones I've come across are as good or better physicians than most U.S. med school grads I've met.

I'm not talking the folks who flee the U.S. to attend Sandy U out of fear of the D.O. degree. I'm talking the actual foreign medical school graduates. Most of these folks (India comes to mind quite prominently) have skills and intellectual abilities that put most U.S. allopathic grads to shame. If you think it's hard to get into a U.S. medical school, try being born in another country.

Originally Posted by Mirror Form

Furthermore, isn't it much more horrible that HPSP has so few MD's from Ivy league institutions these days? Now the military has to settle for MD's from old state U. Talk about sacrificing quality with these idiots who couldn't get into a competitive med school . . . .

I don't think HPSP losing a few Harvard Med grads is a sign of the apocalypse. But the fact that there are increasingly few graduates from (say) the better half of the allopathic medical schools should probably be viewed with some significance.

As others have said, the DO vs. U.S. MD things is just plain silly. We're all physicians. Just as are those with Caribbean MDs. Just as are IMG's with foreign MDs.

I'm sure there are some folks who yearned for a DO degree as children or who eschewed a U.S. allopathic program out of a desire to spend four years in Dominica. But to pretend that these folks are the majority versus folks who went that route with honorable intentions because grades, scores, or life circumstances prevented them from other paths is kinda silly, no?

We're all doctors. Pretending some graduates are more doctors than others is just silly. But pretending I went to State U rather than Harvard Med because I wanted to feel closer to the people or somesuch is just claptrap.

Ah screw it, I'm jumping in.

First, the DO vs MD argument. As notdeadyet points out, we're ALL doctors. Quite frankly, this is one of those useless pissing contests that ranks right alongside Surgeon vs IM and Primary Care vs Specialists. Crap like this is why our career field gets hammered so routinely by CMS cuts and such: we're so easily fractured over what letters come after our names that no one faction can muster the lobbying power to protect us as a whole. Carrying on about this - particularly in public - is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Now we do need to talk about the entrance qualifications for this big happy doctor club we're trying to form. Anyone here ever been on a med school/residency admissions committee, or a rush committee in college? The secret to having a good class of med students or pledges or whatever is that you DON'T take everyone, and you let everyone know that. That's how you build prestige as an organization: you have standards that are above the norm. No one shouts from the rooftops that they got into their local junior college, but you can bet that that acceptance letter from Harvard will be framed by your mother and shown off at every social event for the summer.

The military is doing the exact opposite of this.

People who get into medical school are high achievers. Just clearing the bar is almost like a failure to them. They like challenges, and meeting and exceeding high expectations. These people google the HPSP out of curiosity and they go right for the entrance qualifications and they see...a 21 MCAT? A 3.0 GPA? Geez, they think, my cocker spaniel could crap out a 21 with a pencil in its teeth and a Ouija board. Drunk. This is no challenge for me. What kind of people does the military take? They must really be desperate. There's no honor, no badge of achievement in being awarded an HPSP scholarship. Heck, if I got one and one of my classmates googled the qualifications, I'd probably be made fun of. No thanks.

You want more smart people in? Tell everyone that you're only taking applicants with a 35 on the MCAT or above. This gets the word out - ooh, the Army (or Navy, or Air Force) only takes the cream of the crop - they're even more selective than most Ivy League schools! It would take a couple of years, but you'd see the quality of the applicant pool trend up and you'd get more applications than you'd expect too. In the interim you could keep the waiver system for lower scores so as to keep the pipeline flowing.

Advertising the raising of standards would also go a long way towards restoring milmed's prestige throughout the medical community. It's a ballsy move though, and the fact that standards have sunk this low indicates that it probably won't happen.

I wasn’t going to jump on this thread, but on the recommendation of someone I now feel that this may be the proper place to point out a couple misconceptions about the Army HPSP. HPSP students selected for the scholarship have an average GPA of 3.54 and the average MCAT across the board for those currently in the program is 28.

There is a bare minimum for a packet to be forwarded to the HPSP Selection Board. The minimum acceptance criteria is actually 3.2 GPA and 24 MCAT with no less than eight in each of the three categories. The selection board is staffed with three Army physicians of which one is or was a Program Director. It is the board that ultimately decides who will be offered the scholarship. Those physicians who sit the board are to be commended for taking the time and being conscientious to ensure that they only select the best of what they see at the board. Conversely, for those who are less than satisfied with the board’s decision and want to change a part of it are welcome to volunteer to sit on the board.

We're all doctors sounds really nice but to suggest that there aren't differences in applicant quality between the average MD and DO applicant is to lie for the sake of political correctness. It also doesn't change the reality that our current crop of trainees is struggling to meet basic standards that were easily met 8-10 years ago.

If anyone doubts this, sit down with a program director from a residency that pulls from the bottom half (ie my residency) and ask about applicant quality.

One major driving force behind this quality drop is the acceptance of more DO students. DO students have a more variable quality of education and some of the newer DO schools really put the onus on the student to an alarming degree. There is just more variability in the product (yes, some just as good but others not so much).

This is not a personal attack or some deep-seated insecurity. Its what we face with our current housestaff every day. If you are a DO trainee and go to a school that lacks structure, you need to overcome that with your own diligence.

Now, is there an alternative to accepting marginal students? Not really. The reason marginal performers can get a scholarship is because the scholarships are tough to sell. I don't believe that DoD is interested in fixing this because that would require making the scholarship a good enough deal to attract quality people (which would require fixing the payback experience, physician pay, and a host of other issues).

We've decided that this is good enough. I can understand why people find that disappointing.

All that said, if I was a DO, I would seriously consider the .mil because we take DOs in every specialty and there really isn't a significant anti-DO bias.

Originally Posted by USArmyHPSP

I wasn’t going to jump on this thread, but on the recommendation of someone I now feel that this may be the proper place to point out a couple misconceptions about the Army HPSP. HPSP students selected for the scholarship have an average GPA of 3.54 and the average MCAT across the board for those currently in the program is 28.

There is a bare minimum for a packet to be forwarded to the HPSP Selection Board. The minimum acceptance criteria is actually 3.2 GPA and 24 MCAT with no less than eight in each of the three categories. The selection board is staffed with three Army physicians of which one is or was a Program Director. It is the board that ultimately decides who will be offered the scholarship. Those physicians who sit the board are to be commended for taking the time and being conscientious to ensure that they only select the best of what they see at the board. Conversely, for those who are less than satisfied with the board’s decision and want to change a part of it are welcome to volunteer to sit on the board.

No one is blaming the board. You can't make chicken salad...

Originally Posted by Gastrapathy

We're all doctors sounds really nice but to suggest that there aren't differences in applicant quality between the average MD and DO applicant is to lie for the sake of political correctness. It also doesn't change the reality that our current crop of trainees is struggling to meet basic standards that were easily met 8-10 years ago.

If anyone doubts this, sit down with a program director from a residency that pulls from the bottom half (ie my residency) and ask about applicant quality.

One major driving force behind this quality drop is the acceptance of more DO students. DO students have a more variable quality of education and some of the newer DO schools really put the onus on the student to an alarming degree. There is just more variability in the product (yes, some just as good but others not so much).

Gotcha, and I think we actually agree here. Our point about staying away from MD vs DO bashing wasn't motivated by the warm fuzzies of political correctness at all (when's the last time I was politically correct?). It was about maintaining the brand of the title "Doctor". When people think of a "Doctor", they think of a bright, serious person wearing a white coat who is generally altruistic and comforting. They rarely make a distinction between MD or DO, if they even know of the distinction; they're both Doctors.

That is a good image, and we should maintain it. So when doctors snipe at other doctors in public about how some Doctors are better than others...exactly what are we accomplishing? That's right, we're degrading the Doctor brand for no good reason, and we should stop because it hurts all of us. No one likes to hear that their doctor is low quality!

So it's great that we want to raise the bar for applicants to receive the coveted title of Doctor. That helps the brand, and everyone who is already a doctor. But we need to restrict the argument to the application process, not the final product. Once you're a Doctor, THAT'S IT. You have passed through the threshold to become a Doctor, and it is horribly unfair for others to then start saying yeah, but some Doctors are more equal than others. If there's a problem with someone's credentials, then it needs to be addressed before they're allowed to represent the brand. Attacking doctors after they've acquired the title accomplishes nothing, and damages everyone else who has the title too.

To the public we should all be one big happy family of Doctors, maintaining the brand that our predecessors worked so hard to build and is what incidentally gives us our standing in the community and funds our livelihood. Keep the internecine fights behind closed doors and everyone benefits.

Originally Posted by USArmyHPSP

I wasn’t going to jump on this thread, but on the recommendation of someone I now feel that this may be the proper place to point out a couple misconceptions about the Army HPSP. HPSP students selected for the scholarship have an average GPA of 3.54 and the average MCAT across the board for those currently in the program is 28.

There is a bare minimum for a packet to be forwarded to the HPSP Selection Board. The minimum acceptance criteria is actually 3.2 GPA and 24 MCAT with no less than eight in each of the three categories. The selection board is staffed with three Army physicians of which one is or was a Program Director. It is the board that ultimately decides who will be offered the scholarship. Those physicians who sit the board are to be commended for taking the time and being conscientious to ensure that they only select the best of what they see at the board. Conversely, for those who are less than satisfied with the board’s decision and want to change a part of it are welcome to volunteer to sit on the board.

And these minimum standards where raised from far lower standards last year because someone started realizing that we had a major problem. We have a problem don't act like there is some rigor in being selected for an HPSP scholarship.