ENA can go screw

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I'm so angry right now.

For how I understand this issue, in New York State, nursing is regulated (license-wise) by the State Department of Education. EMS, however is regulated by the State Department of Health. In my city (population approx 220,000, with a metropolitan population of slightly more than a million) there is 1 paramedic program at the local community college. We have 4 hospitals, two of which are major tertiary care medical centers, one of which is university owned, with another, smaller one affiliated with the university.

The paramedic program utilizes the >700 bed university medical center for most of their clinical education. However, the good old ENA has filed a complaint with the State Education Department that the paramedic students are doing their job, and should not be allowed to do their clinical rotations at their hospital. Some attorney in the State Education Department has agreed. The State Department of Health disagrees.

I should mention that the university has a nursing school, and is a mill for NPs, along with 3 other colleges that have NP programs, plus another with a BSN program and an ADN program. Our market is saturated with NPs, and everything everyone talks about on here is evident: the NPs are disrespectful to everyone (my ex wife is a PA) and think there is no reason they can't do everyone else's job better, etc etc etc. This hospital is also critically short of nurses, in every area but especially the ED (2-3 hour drop times for EMS are not uncommon here), so their argument holds NO water. There has always been that tone of disrespect from the nurses to EMS (we're just ambulance drivers) but now they're trying to stop the training and education of our EMS personnel. And, the nurses in the hospital are "standing strong" with them. The other major hospital has agreed to take up much of the slack, and we will probably be better off for it, but WTF?!?

I guess I just wanted a place to vent. I have no problem with nurses in general; their job is different from mine, and both are needed. I'm just angry with the militant, f*** everyone else attitude.

Originally Posted by Farmer2DO

I'm so angry right now.

For how I understand this issue, in New York State, nursing is regulated (license-wise) by the State Department of Education. EMS, however is regulated by the State Department of Health. In my city (population approx 220,000, with a metropolitan population of slightly more than a million) there is 1 paramedic program at the local community college. We have 4 hospitals, two of which are major tertiary care medical centers, one of which is university owned, with another, smaller one affiliated with the university.

The paramedic program utilizes the >700 bed university medical center for most of their clinical education. However, the good old ENA has filed a complaint with the State Education Department that the paramedic students are doing their job, and should not be allowed to do their clinical rotations at their hospital. Some attorney in the State Education Department has agreed. The State Department of Health disagrees.

I should mention that the university has a nursing school, and is a mill for NPs, along with 3 other colleges that have NP programs, plus another with a BSN program and an ADN program. Our market is saturated with NPs, and everything everyone talks about on here is evident: the NPs are disrespectful to everyone (my ex wife is a PA) and think there is no reason they can't do everyone else's job better, etc etc etc. This hospital is also critically short of nurses, in every area but especially the ED (2-3 hour drop times for EMS are not uncommon here), so their argument holds NO water. There has always been that tone of disrespect from the nurses to EMS (we're just ambulance drivers) but now they're trying to stop the training and education of our EMS personnel. And, the nurses in the hospital are "standing strong" with them. The other major hospital has agreed to take up much of the slack, and we will probably be better off for it, but WTF?!?

I guess I just wanted a place to vent. I have no problem with nurses in general; their job is different from mine, and both are needed. I'm just angry with the militant, f*** everyone else attitude.

I think there is great benefit in having paramedics do some training in the ED but also having nurses do some training in the field. where I work, it is a requirement that the residents do ride time on the ambulance. this benefits both professions and gives each a better understanding and increased respect for the other.

Paramedic interns in clinicals, "doing their job" What nurses are these? I am still respectfully very humble when it comes to a veteran RN in the ER, ICU, CRNAs and other specialized nurses. They have alot to teach and in no way would I have been able to do "their" job as a medic intern. I worked with some fine ER nurses, knowledgeable ICU nurses and CRNAs that could teach a crusty street medic a thing or two or three about intubation if they listened.

If I understood your post right, this is actually working nurses who have an issue, or is it nursing students?

I have been told in some states, the state legislature and powers that be can mandate training at facilities in order for them to remain accredited and licensed or something along those lines, especially if any of those facilities are county, or state funded. What I wrote is a very "broad" undefined answer, but I am no expert. I am sure your school is looking into this, and if not it could be something you could mention, the department of health should have some power and strings they can pull, I wouldn't worry.

Good luck.

To the OP: any updates on this story? Based on your description, I'm guessing it's the same paramedic program I attended after my undergrad at Geneseo, and it was a fantastic program at the time. I would hate to hear of them having any difficulties with rotations; I loved my rotations at the "big teaching hospital", and don't understand how I could be thought of as functioning as a nurse.

Originally Posted by Lawsonc

If I understood your post right, this is actually working nurses who have an issue, or is it nursing students?

the department of health should have some power and strings they can pull, I wouldn't worry.

This is the working nurses, using the Emergency Nurses Association (ENA) as their voice, which is a large, powerful, political lobby. Their goal is to keep supply of nurses well below demand, so that pay remains high. Anything, and I mean anything, that even appears that it may diminish that demand in any way, must be squashed.

The problem with the Department of Health, who does back EMS, is that they are fighting against another agency, the Department of Education, who is responsible for licensing nurses in New York State. So now you have attorneys for 2 different state agencies claiming they are correct, and the other is wrong. There is no guarantee what will happen.

Originally Posted by medic25

To the OP: any updates on this story? Based on your description, I'm guessing it's the same paramedic program I attended after my undergrad at Geneseo, and it was a fantastic program at the time. I would hate to hear of them having any difficulties with rotations; I loved my rotations at the "big teaching hospital", and don't understand how I could be thought of as functioning as a nurse.

It is a good program. I'm an adjunct faculty for the program. Everthing is still in a holding pattern, from what I understand. What the program is doing is diversifying their clinical package, to the other 3 hospitals in town. (The other big hospital in town has hired quite a few EM trained physicians in the last several years, and has really become VERY EMS friendly, including the nurses. They are doing EMS research, and treat EMS with a significantly greater amount of respect than the university based hospital.)

I am faculty at a paramedic programme that has had to diversify it's clinical package as well. Our time at the university based trauma centre has been severely restricted. However, our problem is not with nurses per se, it's due to the fact that hospitals are experiencing an over saturation of students in all disciplines and clinical spots are highly competitive.

I also have had similar experiences at our other clinical sites. The physicians at the large centres are typically uninterested in interacting with paramedic students at best; however, many are residents or physicians tasked with working with residents, so people are much more interested in their own thing, so to speak. clearly, I understand most of this because they are typically quite busy. However, our experiences with physicians at other facilities are much more high yield when it comes to physician interaction. One facility let's us round with the pulmonologists in the ICU and a few of those guys are top notch on the fly educators. Their support of students is well known among the respiratory students that frequent that hospital as well.

In terms of certain types of experience, some of the smaller hospitals may have much to offer. Perhaps it was a good thing you guys had to diversify?

well sounds like Paramedics and the entire ems community needs to be told about this to rally arround our brothers and sisters of the national association. I mean serriously paramedics who are doing rotations doing nurseing jobs for nurses? how foolish first off and second how narrow minded. im pretty certain if you brought it up to the govenors attention by useing the political system and the association as cover fire for the story then things will get done in your favor alot faster. remember paramedics have just as much of a right training there as the ed nurses have of working (or what seems like lack there of working) and complaning of being in the ED. so dont back down just reload!