Veterinary student debt continues to climb

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Wow, I had no idea student debt was increasing.

Originally Posted by Trilt

Wow, I had no idea student debt was increasing.

Why don't you actually read the article. It is really good.

Originally Posted by Trilt

Wow, I had no idea student debt was increasing.

I think the powers that be have come a long way in the year since this article was published. I hear a lot more talk that we do have a problem, and I hear a lot of people trying to come up with answers.

It seems like there's more info available about debt and cost and what kind of jobs are (and aren't) out there and what sort of sacrifices it takes to get from here to there. As a practicing vet for over ten years I can say that the prevets on here know WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY more than I did at the same stage. Or maybe you all are just way more aware; I was pretty clueless I think. Still am, maybe

I'm impressed by the idea of reducing vet school to three years by eliminating coursework outside of the students interest...

I think it'd be a good idea to even replace those courses with fundamental business courses.... so small animal vet students can skip large animal medicine and take managerial accounting instead....

also, just applying to vet school this year, I've notice an extreme lack of DVM/MBA programs.... more schools offer "business certificates" but who knows how effective those are....

Originally Posted by VET 2008

Why don't you actually read the article. It is really good.

I did, along with at least a dozen others since it was published. We also discuss the subject pretty much every day on the forums. Which is why it's a little irritating to have someone who is not a regular contributor drop in and lecture us on it and tell people to pursue a different field.

think the powers that be have come a long way in the year since this article was published. I hear a lot more talk that we do have a problem, and I hear a lot of people trying to come up with answers.

It seems like there's more info available about debt and cost and what kind of jobs are (and aren't) out there and what sort of sacrifices it takes to get from here to there. As a practicing vet for over ten years I can say that the prevets on here know WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY more than I did at the same stage. Or maybe you all are just way more aware; I was pretty clueless I think. Still am, maybe

I love your contributions, justavet. You are helpful, offer advice (and your lovely spreadsheets), and seem to take into account that we are in a recession right now more than some alarmist people. I like the forum having practicing vets!

I'm not saying that steps should not be taken to mend up the way the profession is heading and that students shouldn't approach it with a healthy ounce of caution, but being bashed over the head with it gets a tad old. I apologize for the sarcasm.

Originally Posted by Trilt

I did, along with at least a dozen others since it was published. We also discuss the subject pretty much every day on the forums. Which is why it's a little irritating to have someone who is not a regular contributor drop in and lecture us on it and tell people to pursue a different field.

I'm having a similar reaction to VET 2008's approach to this issue. In another thread, he or she reminds an applicant that has just suffered rejection for the third year how class sizes are getting bigger and the fact that she still has not broken through with acceptances is a message that she should find another career. He or she warns all other unsophisticated and naive pre-vetters that "veterinary medicine is in GRAVE condition" and then pops his arms out of their sockets and swings them around frantically while making ghoulish noises.

Relevant message. Extremely poor, heavy-handed delivery, in my opinion. Perhaps channeling his concerns to fellow professional veterinarians on the other SDN forum or VIN and brainstorming ways to protect the future livelihood of this field would be more productive than trying to discourage pre-vet students in the midst of an application cycle from celebrating acceptances we've diligently worked years to attain or from seeking motivation and guidance to weather on beyond rejections. I hope other future peers in the industry are at least attempting to be more constructive about helping to resolve the challenges our profession faces. Best of luck.

Originally Posted by firstattempt1

I'm impressed by the idea of reducing vet school to three years by eliminating coursework outside of the students interest...

I think it'd be a good idea to even replace those courses with fundamental business courses.... so small animal vet students can skip large animal medicine and take managerial accounting instead....

also, just applying to vet school this year, I've notice an extreme lack of DVM/MBA programs.... more schools offer "business certificates" but who knows how effective those are....

What about people interested in Mixed Animal practice? How would we get the time to do small and large animal?

VET 2008's message may be gloom and doom and maybe a bit pessimisstic, but don't shoot the messenger. I think we're all aware of the employment crises in veterinary med and almost everywhere else. But information can't hurt. In fact, for those of us who are still waiting for an interview/acceptance, it gives us an idea that maybe we should start investigating other, more financially sound, ways to use our passion and skills to help better the world and satisfy our interests. I am already working on Plan B myself and hope that others will, too (and I don't mean just reapplying, but actually availing ourselves of other career options). I know we all want to be vets, so it's hard to hear, I know (it is for me, too).

Originally Posted by PetPony

What about people interested in Mixed Animal practice? How would we get the time to do small and large animal?

I completely agree. Not to mention that it would make you in general less employable and boards cover all species. What happens if you get out with what ever area you specialized in, whether large or small animal, and you don't find a job or you want to go into something different than you originally thought. You've now only been educated in one particular area of vet med. Not to mention that a lot of areas, public heath, wildlife, mixed practice, behavior, etc... require knowledge of large and small animals. Many people in my class want to do mixed practice. Also, most schools to my knowledge do allow a considerable amount of tracking. I know here we have core large and small animal rotations we have to take. But most of the rotations and electives are up to you and focus on whatever area you're interested in. TAMU used to be a 3 year program, but you didn't get summers off. I personally want to keep my summers off and use them to get work experience, network, and actually get to touch a live animal. It's what keeps me sane.

It is a very competitive job market. A lot of areas of industry have been hit and vet med is not immune to that. I've had people owning businesses in multiple hard hit areas of employment as well as vet practices tell me that they still have a hard time finding good people. They don't have to advertise positions and they get a ton of resumes. But they tell me that the presentation for most applicants is really not good. The best advice I've gotten so far is to learn the skills that a lot of people don't have, effective networking, resume and interview skills, and learning how to present yourself as an asset to the company you are applying to. Just like with applying to vet school, you have to learn how to set yourself apart. I can't control how many jobs are available. But there are a lot of things about job searching that can be controlled and strengthened.

I also can't control tuition but I can control my expenses and I chose a school that was lower cost for me. It is important to do your research and do the math about what you're going to spend on school versus what your going to make and decide for yourself if you can live with that.

I'm not saying there aren't problems, there most certainly are. There are always problems and obstacles in the world, the question is what are you going to do about it.

Originally Posted by su_grad2007

It is a very competitive job market. A lot of areas of industry have been hit and vet med is not immune to that.

That's the thing. Increasing tuition and lean hiring is not unique to vet med right now. If you want to see doom and gloom, go hang out on an architecture student forum. Or law school. It's helpful to point out the current problems in vet med, but you've got to have a career in something. And right now there are a lot of careers that are hurting just as bad if not worse.

Originally Posted by Bill59

That's the thing. Increasing tuition and lean hiring is not unique to vet med right now. If you want to see doom and gloom, go hang out on an architecture student forum. Or law school. It's helpful to point out the current problems in vet med, but you've got to have a career in something. And right now there are a lot of careers that are hurting just as bad if not worse.

I agree completely.

Unfortunately, I'm one of those people in vet school that didn't have the option of an in-state school, and I only got into one school (waitlisted at a second). I went into this with wide open eyes about the debt I would incur (which is well over the average $107,000 vet grads walk away with), and for me, that's ok. But I've checked multiple job sites (VIN included) and I still see plenty of active job offers around.

Originally Posted by August West

"veterinary medicine is in GRAVE condition" and then pops his arms out of their sockets and swings them around frantically while making ghoulish noises.

HahahaI agree that he/she has been extremely tactless in their efforts to prevent pre-vets from entering such a "GRAVE" situation. Perhaps reality has suddenly set in for them as they start to pay back their loans, and they have forgotten the drive that originally led them to pursue vet med. I certainly think that it is a good idea to warn pre-vets about debt related issues as they attempt to gain admission- the more we know upon entering and taking out 100000s of thousands in loans the better. However as Trilt mentioned, the SDN comminity in particular discusses this issue quite frequently.

I also agree that limiting the veterinary education to SA or LA will decrease the value of the education. There are certainly people who would never think of switching degrees, but limiting our knowledge will do all of us as health professionals a diservice. Perhaps we should go to a European style of education in which we eliminated undergrad degrees allowing students to save money on total loan repayments without decreasing the species related knowledge we would gain.

Originally Posted by Fireflysushi

Perhaps we should go to a European style of education in which we eliminated undergrad degrees allowing students to save money on total loan repayments without decreasing the species related knowledge we would gain.

i wholeheartedly agree with this fireflysushi. while i enjoyed many of the classes i took in UG, probably about 1/2 of them are completely irreleveant to my vet med degree. i think that a 5 year program like the UK schools would work well (with the 1st year being basic science requirements). i'm already entering vet school with ~$50,000 debt from undergrad.

Originally Posted by sunnex3

i wholeheartedly agree with this fireflysushi. while i enjoyed many of the classes i took in UG, probably about 1/2 of them are completely irreleveant to my vet med degree. i think that a 5 year program like the UK schools would work well (with the 1st year being basic science requirements). i'm already entering vet school with ~$50,000 debt from undergrad.

Absolutely. I didn't learn one gorram thing in college that was useful to my vet med degree, besides perhaps one or two classes. And I was a biochemistry major.

I look at my dad (British) who got his PhD at 24 and was in the job market immediately....and here am I, 27, still slogging along in a ton of debt earning pittance. If it were up to me, I would eliminate college completely and go back to specialized trade school/apprenticeship system.

Originally Posted by Fireflysushi

HahahaI agree that he/she has been extremely tactless in their efforts to prevent pre-vets from entering such a "GRAVE" situation. Perhaps reality has suddenly set in for them as they start to pay back their loans, and they have forgotten the drive that originally led them to pursue vet med. I certainly think that it is a good idea to warn pre-vets about debt related issues as they attempt to gain admission- the more we know upon entering and taking out 100000s of thousands in loans the better. However as Trilt mentioned, the SDN comminity in particular discusses this issue quite frequently.

I also agree that limiting the veterinary education to SA or LA will decrease the value of the education. There are certainly people who would never think of switching degrees, but limiting our knowledge will do all of us as health professionals a diservice. Perhaps we should go to a European style of education in which we eliminated undergrad degrees allowing students to save money on total loan repayments without decreasing the species related knowledge we would gain.

I also think we need to more proactively pressure the government and advocate on behalf of veterinary students and professionals alike. We provide an extremely valuable service to the community and the quality of life for the country as a whole will surely go down should the veterinary profession truly begin to deteriorate and fall apart as some seem to be projecting could happen. We need help. We need to get back subsidized student loans and argue for even more assistance with playing off our debt. Easier said than done, right? We're supposed to be a pretty smart bunch. I think we can move past the doom and gloom and get innovative and resourceful.

Two Hunter S. Thompson quotes come to mind when thinking about these challenges:

'Politics is the art of controlling your environment.'

AND

'When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional.'

Originally Posted by sunnex3

i wholeheartedly agree with this fireflysushi. while i enjoyed many of the classes i took in UG, probably about 1/2 of them are completely irreleveant to my vet med degree. i think that a 5 year program like the UK schools would work well (with the 1st year being basic science requirements). i'm already entering vet school with ~$50,000 debt from undergrad.

I know that in the past UC-Davis has allowed students to apply without a Bachelor's degree and take most of the pre-requisites at a community college. Not sure if this is true for most SVM's, but it is a much more affordable and efficient path for many. Last I heard, though, Davis was considering doing away with this policy and requiring a BA or BS from all applicants. Maybe you guys are right and we need the schools to rethink some of their policies so that students can at least enter their DVM program without pre-existing debt on their back. At the same time, I would hate to erode the full value of a DVM by streamlining the process away from the stringent requirements human doctors need to fulfill. Tough call...

Originally Posted by WhtsThFrequency

If it were up to me, I would eliminate college completely and go back to specialized trade school/apprenticeship system.

We have those in Germany. Not everyone goes to college, only for certain things like medicine, psychology etc. Everyone else goes to trade schools or does apprenticeships. And those apprenticeships sometimes already start (or can be started) at 16.

Originally Posted by August West

I know that in the past UC-Davis has allowed students to apply without a Bachelor's degree and take most of the pre-requisites at a community college. Not sure if this is true for most SVM's, but it is a much more affordable and efficient path for many. Last I heard, though, Davis was considering doing away with this policy and requiring a BA or BS from all applicants. Maybe you guys are right and we need the schools to rethink some of their policies so that students can at least enter their DVM program without pre-existing debt on their back. At the same time, I would hate to erode the full value of a DVM by streamlining the process away from the stringent requirements human doctors need to fulfill. Tough call...

That's kind of what I'm trying to do. I made a plan to take my prerequisites in three years, but I'm still taking other classes (animal science) to fill up my schedule. And if I don't get in on the first try, then I'd finish my major in the next year and try again.

That was my plan. Because I wanted to save money. But I am now looking at the UGA vet school guarantee program and if I get admitted, then I'd be here for four years of undergrad. More money, but at least I'd know that most likely, I will go to vet school if I finish the program.

The ideas of shortened and specialized veterinary education have been debated for over twenty years when the Future Directions for Veterinary Medicine (1989) (also known as the Pew Report) which also characterized the concept of the "universal" veterinarian as "anachronistic".
Specialization in a class or area of practice was advocated as a way of making the veterinarian more productive given the time and money spent on the degree and the increasing need of in depth knowledge needed to be competitive and productive in both clinical and non-clinical avenues. That idea really conflicts a lot with the professional "identity" of the veterinary profession even though it is sound economic logic in accordance with the division of labor.

WTF is right on target about the need to have a system not entirely bound to the traditional educational institutions in order to gain the knowledge to be employed in industries. Apprenticeships have worked for many decades. The mission of the traditional college really needs to be looked at to see if it is still effective in a dynamic economy and a longer work life.

http://thedx.druckerinstitute.com/20...em-by-degrees/

Originally Posted by Trilt

I did, along with at least a dozen others since it was published. We also discuss the subject pretty much every day on the forums. Which is why it's a little irritating to have someone who is not a regular contributor drop in and lecture us on it and tell people to pursue a different field.



I love your contributions, justavet. You are helpful, offer advice (and your lovely spreadsheets), and seem to take into account that we are in a recession right now more than some alarmist people. I like the forum having practicing vets!

I'm not saying that steps should not be taken to mend up the way the profession is heading and that students shouldn't approach it with a healthy ounce of caution, but being bashed over the head with it gets a tad old. I apologize for the sarcasm.

This forum is useless when it comes to paying for vet school. There are 5 kinds of people here when it comes to financial discussions: 1. People that went to their in-state school-- these people are smart and you rarely hear from them; 2. People who got rejected from their in-state school and who are terrified about being in massive, suffocating debt for the rest of their lives; 3. Clueless people who were just happy they got into a school and ended up just going, and who advise People 2 to just go for it as well because they'll be doing what they love; 4. Older voice of reason types who write long, thoughtful posts that are really great but basically just say, think carefully; 5. Random people discussing hurt feelings after a condescending post from someone.

Meanwhile the post is 57 pages long of nothing, or if something gets said, it's impossible to find. Since you're a regular though maybe you can quickly recap the best stuff. Has there ever been a recent grad that's shared their actual debt load and how they're dealing with it, and whether or not it's manageable/whether or not it was worth it. Any examples of success or failure?

If there's anyone out there that went to Cornell and ended up with 7 million dollars in debt, but now you're absolutely killing it professionally, can you please brag about it and tell us how you did it, in detail.

To vet2008: the example of Fish in your article is awesome. I loved reading about his plan. I wish he could be contacted somehow.

Originally Posted by Boophilus

Has there ever been a recent grad that's shared their actual debt load and how they're dealing with it, and whether or not it's manageable/whether or not it was worth it. Any examples of success or failure?

There have been several, although they don't post much. chickenlittle made some great contributions, but not sure where she went. I can give the perspective of someone specializing, at least.

Me? I'm currently 158,000, in my second year of residency. I went to my in-state school and am in forbearance - can't even really afford to pay interest. After my residency I'm likely going to have to do a PhD. Assuming 1.5 more years of residency and then 4-5 of PhD (during which I will also have to be in forbearance), I'm looking at 200+K and a starting salary in my field of 80 to maybe 100 if I am lucky, unless I sell my soul to Big Pharma and look at hundreds of rat stomachs for some drug study every day and get paid more.

Is in manageable? Barely. It would be better if I has double income (ie hubby or serious SO), but I don't. I won't be able to buy a house, a car, etc for at least four or five more years, maybe more. Kids? Unless my future hubby makes a crapload, likely not until I get a "grownup" job . Is it worth it? Debatable question. I love my job. I love what I do. I consider myself extremely lucky, because not many people can say that about their job. Would I have done it all over again/done things differently? Probably. I went to my in-state school and worked part-time jobs all the way up until fourth year; don't know what else I could have done besides beg my folks or marry rich

However, I will say, for anyone interested in specializing, you do indeed get a big salary bump when you are done. If you can stand the forbearance, do it. And make sure it's a specialty with a job market that is at least stable.

That's real-life information and probably will be extremely useful to pre-vets. Thanks for sharing, WTF.

Originally Posted by flyhi

That's real-life information and probably will be extremely useful to pre-vets. Thanks for sharing, WTF.

Useful, but certainly an unrepresentative case in that most people will not do a residency, let alone a PhD on top of it.
They still could be in debt that much of course (or more), but most people will have a much much higher income over the 8 years post-DVM than an aspiring Resident+PhD.

I'm sure WTF knew that she could have made different choices that resulted in her being in an infinitely better financial position 8 years down the line..
Not meaning to be critical really, i'd do the same if i had such a passion..
I hope I never develop such a passion

Originally Posted by New Foundland

Useful, but certainly an unrepresentative case in that most people will not do a residency, let alone a PhD on top of it.
They still could be in debt that much of course (or more), but most people will have a much much higher income over the 8 years post-DVM than an aspiring Resident+PhD.

I'm sure WTF knew that she could have made different choices that resulted in her being in an infinitely better financial position 8 years down the line..
Not meaning to be critical really, i'd do the same if i had such a passion..
I hope I never develop such a passion

I'm not so sure I agree with the residency conclusion.
With the increasing oversupply of regular DVMs I can see starting salaries to be under more pressure, and residency may be the only way to have a decent wage.
This is all speculative, but 3 years of lowered wages may pay off.... I can see residents directly competing with regular DVMs as well soon, as there aren't enough residency positions. So it may be part time DVM vs full time residency.

I wouldn't say WTF chose the worse financial situation at all as a resident.
Now, adding on a PhD? Who knows?

Exactly. Her initial debt is on the low side for grads and her overall debt AFTER a residency and Ph.D will probably be average for DVM grads by the time she finishes all of her work and she'll have a residency and PhD, compared to a DVM. I think it is relevant and like SOV mentioned, the advanced training may very well become the new norm to be competitive in the market 8 years down the road.

Originally Posted by New Foundland

Useful, but certainly an unrepresentative case in that most people will not do a residency, let alone a PhD on top of it.
They still could be in debt that much of course (or more), but most people will have a much much higher income over the 8 years post-DVM than an aspiring Resident+PhD.

I'm sure WTF knew that she could have made different choices that resulted in her being in an infinitely better financial position 8 years down the line..
Not meaning to be critical really, i'd do the same if i had such a passion..
I hope I never develop such a passion

Yes, NF, but you forget that specialists demand a higher salary that will, over time outstrip your average general practitioner. So really, it's a wash.

What "different choices" do you mean? I mean, I could have gone to business school and become a stockbroker, I suppose...but I want to do pathology. There is no way around doing that besides doing a residency. So really, I didn't have "better choice" I'm trying to damndest to wiggle out of the PhD.

I will say that specializing, for me, was also heavily influenced by my debt. I was willing to sacrifice three years of paying back loans in order to have a higher starting salary (and plus, obviously, I love my field of work).

Originally Posted by flyhi

the advanced training may very well become the new norm to be competitive in the market 8 years down the road.

Exactly. In the future, even GP clinics may be looking only for new associate vets who are boarded in Internal Medicine. Or Sx. Or whatever. I do think its important to reach out to the people on this forum who are considering specializing.

The rate of people doing internships and residencies has been increasing every year, and a lot of it is due to money concerns. I believe my case is really not that uncommon, and may be even less uncommon in the future Nearly 40% of new grads are pursuing advanced training now: http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=10819

Originally Posted by flyhi

Exactly. Her initial debt is on the low side for grads and her overall debt AFTER a residency and Ph.D will probably be average for DVM grads by the time she finishes all of her work and she'll have a residency and PhD, compared to a DVM. I think it is relevant and like SOV mentioned, the advanced training may very well become the new norm to be competitive in the market 8 years down the road.

Her initial debt is not on the low side... average graduating debt (of students who graduate with debt) is 142k for 2011. Not everyone goes to Penn or abroad.

Originally Posted by WhtsThFrequency

Yes, NF, but you forget that specialists demand a higher salary that will, over time outstrip your average general practitioner. So really, it's a wash.

I didn't forget that at all.. I was commenting on your 10-year outlook, not your total lifetime earnings at retirement...
All I meant was that you purposely made a choice that results in not being able to pay off much debt at all in the years directly following your DVM.. Not a situation most will be in.
I'm not criticizing you for going into pathology. I thought I made that clear. I know path requires extended schooling (often beyond a residency).

You say your situation is "barely manageable"
Clearly you were referring to your short-term situation rather than your lifelong career. And so was I. I made no comments on the long-term profitability of a specialization.

I was willing to sacrifice three years of paying back loans in order to have a higher starting salary

only 3 years? How much do you expect to make as a PhD student? (I'm not trying to make a point here, I actually don't know.. I was assuming PhD students wouldn't make more than like 60k, but i'd be interested to hear whether you expect to be making good money during a PhD..)




And I don't buy for a minute the whole alarmist VIN-addled brain argument about how non-specialists won't be able to find work in the future because too many people will be specialized that they'll overflow. There will be a slight trend and it will only affect salaries marginally. Yes there's a general trend in the direction of more people doing internships, and to a lesser extent residencies.. That is not a bellwether for the disappearance of employment for "mere DVMs"

The rate of people doing internships and residencies has been increasing every year, and a lot of it is due to money concerns. I believe my case is really not that uncommon, and may be even less uncommon in the future Nearly 40% of new grads are pursuing advanced training now: http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=10819

Find me numbers that exclude just internships? Anybody with 2 years of private practice experience can compete with somebody who has 1 year of internship experience and 1 of PP .. Show me numbers of those pursuing residencies and you'll better understand my point in the previous paragraph..
**edit** by "pursuing residencies", i mean are actually enrolled in a residency program (or alternatively how many AC diplomates are granted each year), not just those who say they want to do one. I don't care about how many interns *want* to do a residency. It's about how many specialists are created each year (minus retiring specialists each year).

Originally Posted by firstattempt1

I'm impressed by the idea of reducing vet school to three years by eliminating coursework outside of the students interest...

I think it'd be a good idea to even replace those courses with fundamental business courses.... so small animal vet students can skip large animal medicine and take managerial accounting instead....

also, just applying to vet school this year, I've notice an extreme lack of DVM/MBA programs.... more schools offer "business certificates" but who knows how effective those are....

3 year of vet school would require an extreme re-evaluation of the applicants accepted. The only way to make that work would be to reduce the time spent in clinical rotations. If you look at the successful applicant stats there are plenty of applicants who have extremely high GPAs with very little good experience. These applicants would probably have serious problems entering the job market following vet school. (I'm not against you idea... but its not law school, you need to have a working understanding how everything works before you enter the job market)


Independently of that, I think there is employment in veterinary field if you:

(A) ... network and establish relationships with members of the field. I know my work experience will definitely help me out because my practice owner would hired me out of vet school and I have also maintained contact with many other vets I have had the pleasure to work with. I understand that I still need to implement my theory but I have never had a hard time becoming employed in the field since I was high school.

(B) ... are open to exploring other fields of veterinary medicine and moving to where the job is.



Looking at other threads I am concerned by how so many people want to be in fields of veterinary medicine that pay very poorly (most of them dont pay well to start with)... and they are going to go OOS for it. That does seem like poor decision making to me.... and that would be very disappointing to those who did not anticipate that.



... and now I will just go on ranting and rambling...

Other professions are in serious trouble too, which make our problems seem small. For example Law Schools have opened ~10 new schools in the past 10 years (~180 schools total now), even top schools like harvard have an entering class of 1000 students each year, there are entire forums on "alternative careers" that you can do with a law degree, and sooooooo many people end up hating their profession and do something else a few years after graduating.

...maybe one could go horribly in debt and get a law degree after your vet degree and then you can work as a patent attorney making bank (at least in that job market people need a scientific background/advanced degree ... and you actually would have the potential to pay off all those loans )

Originally Posted by Virginger

3 year of vet school would require an extreme re-evaluation of the applicants accepted. The only way to make that work would be to reduce the time spent in clinical rotations. If you look at the successful applicant stats there are plenty of applicants who have extremely high GPAs with very little good experience. These applicants would probably have serious problems entering the job market following vet school. (I'm not against you idea... but its not law school, you need to have a working understanding how everything works before you enter the job market)

I really like your post but disagree slightly with this part. I think most curricula would be able to eliminate enough of the classwork to cut down the length of school by at least a semester if not a year without taking away from clinic exposure.

Here at NCSU, for example, we take two credits of career and PBL exploration in first year, immunology on top of the other three infectious disease courses, five credits of epidemiology, nutrition even though it was a prereq to enter our school, two semesters of pharmacology when about half of the drugs we learn are clinically relevant, and multiple rounds of medicine courses that could be condensed. By clipping, consolidating, and eliminating some of this stuff you could definitely shorten the classwork time by whole semesters.

There are already several vet schools that have slightly longer school years and squeeze all of the bookwork into just two years followed by two years of clinics. Why not adapt this format of two years of bookwork, make it into one year of clinic time focused on your area of interest (why worry about exposure to colic surgery in horses if you are strictly small animal?), and keep the option of an internship year which is essentially an extra year of clinics? Med schools also have only two years of bookwork time with two years of clinical exposure, so fitting in enough material in that length of time has historical basis.

Originally Posted by NittanyKitty

I really like your post but disagree slightly with this part. I think most curricula would be able to eliminate enough of the classwork to cut down the length of school by at least a semester if not a year without taking away from clinic exposure.

Here at NCSU, for example, we take two credits of career and PBL exploration in first year, immunology on top of the other three infectious disease courses, five credits of epidemiology, nutrition even though it was a prereq to enter our school, two semesters of pharmacology when about half of the drugs we learn are clinically relevant, and multiple rounds of medicine courses that could be condensed. By clipping, consolidating, and eliminating some of this stuff you could definitely shorten the classwork time by whole semesters.

There are already several vet schools that have slightly longer school years and squeeze all of the bookwork into just two years followed by two years of clinics. Why not adapt this format of two years of bookwork, make it into one year of clinic time focused on your area of interest (why worry about exposure to colic surgery in horses if you are strictly small animal?), and keep the option of an internship year which is essentially an extra year of clinics? Med schools also have only two years of bookwork time with two years of clinical exposure, so fitting in enough material in that length of time has historical basis.

I am convinced there is no question that 3 years is do-able, but I am also convinced that there is no school that is motivated to do so. Why would they? They have full enrollment for 4 years, they don't want to cut the number of tuition paying students. They can't afford to. Same faculty and fewer students = no way.

Very simple solution is to set up first year as distance learning. Let's face it, lecture time for most of these courses do not require our presence. Offer 1st year on-line at some small price to subsidize the technology, let people work while they take the classes (or whatever), and voila. One year is taken care of. Second year would be more on campus and a lot more lab time. Still give you 1-2 years of clinics.

Originally Posted by NittanyKitty

I really like your post but disagree slightly with this part. I think most curricula would be able to eliminate enough of the classwork to cut down the length of school by at least a semester if not a year without taking away from clinic exposure.

Here at NCSU, for example, we take two credits of career and PBL exploration in first year, immunology on top of the other three infectious disease courses, five credits of epidemiology, nutrition even though it was a prereq to enter our school, two semesters of pharmacology when about half of the drugs we learn are clinically relevant, and multiple rounds of medicine courses that could be condensed. By clipping, consolidating, and eliminating some of this stuff you could definitely shorten the classwork time by whole semesters.

There are already several vet schools that have slightly longer school years and squeeze all of the bookwork into just two years followed by two years of clinics. Why not adapt this format of two years of bookwork, make it into one year of clinic time focused on your area of interest (why worry about exposure to colic surgery in horses if you are strictly small animal?), and keep the option of an internship year which is essentially an extra year of clinics? Med schools also have only two years of bookwork time with two years of clinical exposure, so fitting in enough material in that length of time has historical basis.

I can agree with you. Though, I would be very disappointed about consolidating of courses like epidemiology, immunology, infectious disease... personally, I love those topics . ... so, I would recommend that the programs require immunology and other topics that can be completed in undergrad as a pre-req so the vet schools could focus on subjects that can only be taught while in the DVM program... but, it is hard to assume that every school/class is equal in the amount and depth of material covered for that pre-req.

I do think the whole veterinary community would have to embrace doing internships following vet school or at least practices would need to embrace having to do even more initial training of new grads. The hands on learning is so important but I agree it doesnt have to be completed in vet school with a ton of tuition $$$ tacked onto it.

... the other real question is would they then bump up the tuition dramatically if the shortened the program? ... I gut says they shouldnt but it doesnt mean that wouldnt do it. Then we would still be stuck.

Originally Posted by Virginger

3 year of vet school would require an extreme re-evaluation of the applicants accepted. The only way to make that work would be to reduce the time spent in clinical rotations.

What makes you think that if you cut out 1 year of vet school, it would be out of clinics, rather than the academic years? A lot of the 1st year material and some of even 2nd year material can be learned just as well during UG. The purpose of clinics is not meant to be catch up time for people to learn tech skills. It's time to put together all the academic components into practice so that you learn doctor skills. No matter how much experience you've had during your pre-vet years, clinics is probably going to still be the most valuable time during vet school. (Edit: haha... just realized like 2 peeps posted the same thing before me)

I agree 100% with the points you made about networking and being open to relocation being key to finding employment though. I'd say that's where good experience throughout your pre-vet and vet school years will really help you out. Sadly... the only real relevant networking I've had is with my bf, with possible employment in the form of marriage. Hopefully that works out . FML FML FML. He really is the love of my life, but it just makes me so uncomfortable to be financially dependent on someone else. Though at the same time, he's the one that's keeping me location restricted (and I have some connections in other parts of the country), so maybe that won't be as bad if I don't get "hired." Time will only tell.

Originally Posted by WhtsThFrequency

chickenlittle made some great contributions, but not sure where she went..

I'm still around, but not posting much anymore.... work is hectic, pregnancy is exhausting, and I started to feel like my posts here probably weren't of much help to anyone

Unfortunately, I really don't have much to contribute to the debt discussions. I went to my in-state school and my parents paid my tuition and gave me a small amount for living expenses. I earned the rest by teaching GRE/SAT prep classes for The Princeton Review. (That was the best job of my life, by the way... great pay and the most enjoyable/rewarding work I've ever done while getting paid! Highly recommend for anyone looking for a PT job in college or vet school.) So yeah, I'm one of those lucky fools who graduated with no student loans and only $5-10k in credit card debt.

I'm now on my fourth job since graduation, and have worked my way up from a starting salary of $45k/yr up to currently making $103k/yr. I've been very fortunate in that area, and have no complaints with my own finances. Still, I know a LOT of people who have not been so financially fortunate... with some of those people, it's their own decision (at some point, you have to decide whether to take the busier/less-desirable job with better pay, or sacrifice pay to practice in an ideal environment), but others have found themselves in such situations through no fault of their own. Yes, there are still decent jobs out there, but once you get married, it becomes harder to relocate for those jobs.

For anyone who's curious about how $103k breaks down into actual take-home pay, I've done this before but don't mind tossing it out there again. I take home approximately $4600/month after state/federal taxes, health/disability insurance, 5% IRA contribution, and HSA contribution (our health insurance has a $2500 deductible and we're having a baby this year, so I contribute about $350/month so there will be enough in there to cover anything our insurance doesn't cover...other people could probably contribute less). For us, that's more than enough to live off comfortably and still be able to set aside for savings. When I hear of people with student loan payments of $1,500-2,000/month, though, I think it would be a challenge for me to pay those even on my relatively high salary.... much less on a new grad's salary.

So yeah, that's why I don't contribute to the debt discussions. I'm no help

If anyone's really curious, here's our monthly budget... just because I'm trying to procrastinate cleaning my house right now!! We live in a $175k house in a relatively low-COL area. My husband is a FT grad student and doing an unpaid internship... he'll be graduating in August and then likely will be working only PT while mostly being a stay-at-home dad for a year or two (we're due in August, and I'd like to keep the baby out of daycare for at least the first 1-2 years).

Mortgage $1300
Water/sewer $50
Natural gas $10
Electric $120
Cell phones $115
Cable/internet/phone bundle $140
Horse boarding $150
Charity $300
Husband's tuition $400 (put aside monthly so it's there at start of semester)
Savings $600 (for maternity leave, emergencies, etc)
Roth IRA $100 (have a 401k through work, but still try to contribute some to my Roth)
VIN $58 (my job doesn't pay for this, but I consider it essential)
Gas for our vehicles $200
Car insurance $100
Groceries $400 (I know this could probably be lower, but my husband loves to cook)
Eating out $300 (lunches when we're at work/school, date nights, etc)

That adds up to about $4350, leaving ~ $250/month for the things I didn't include... like heating oil, clothing, car repairs, vacations, vet bills (no, it's not all free), dog food, books (fun books for me and textbooks for my husband), home repairs, etc. Sometimes those things also have to come from savings, which is why I try to make sure we set aside enough every month to let our savings grow.

Anyway, as I said, we're definitely not hurting for money... we take fun trips (on a budget - I love priceline!), we eat out, we occasionally go to the symphony, and we have a good time. Still, ten years ago, I would have thought that $103k/yr would provide a pretty extravagant lifestyle for a married couple with no kids... I don't really know that our level of extravagance is as high as I would have envisioned. And if I were paying the student loan payments that I hear about from a lot of the newer grads these days, we'd definitely be having to cut back pretty substantially.

Originally Posted by StartingoverVet

I am convinced there is no question that 3 years is do-able, but I am also convinced that there is no school that is motivated to do so. Why would they? They have full enrollment for 4 years, they don't want to cut the number of tuition paying students. They can't afford to. Same faculty and fewer students = no way.

Originally Posted by Virginger

The hands on learning is so important but I agree it doesnt have to be completed in vet school with a ton of tuition $$$ tacked onto it.

... the other real question is would they then bump up the tuition dramatically if the shortened the program? ... I gut says they shouldnt but it doesnt mean that wouldnt do it. Then we would still be stuck.

I think that's kind of the heart of the matter. If they're going to have to pay for a veterinary teaching hospital for any part of your training, they're going to have to have students be there long enough to take advantage of it, and they're going to need tuition to pay for it. Same thing with any other part of the vet school infrastructure. Just magically cutting out 1/4 of our time in school isn't really going to make it cheaper to have a teaching hospital.

Though... I kind of wonder why Western tuition is still so expensive. They're not a for profit school right? So where is all that money going? Does it cost them that much to send their students to other clinics in the area? Or are vet students taking up a bigger burden of supporting the university (newer school that needs money to build infrastructure and build research and such?)

Originally Posted by chickenlittle

I'm still around, but not posting much anymore.... work is hectic, pregnancy is exhausting, and I started to feel like my posts here probably weren't of much help to anyone

Congrats on the lil one! And you have no idea how much your input does help. As stupid and immature as this sounds, no matter how much I've thought about my future finances (will I be able to buy a house? how bad would having kids be? what to do about retirement? etc...), I have not actually lived outside of the paying rent and living on survival mode. So it's really hard for me to put everything together in terms of exactly how bad things will be, and exactly what I'll be able to afford/not afford. I can only speculate... and even then, it's very segmented. So even if it's coming from someone not dealing with debt, your budget breakdown helps a ton. It let's me really think about how/what to prioritize, what's necessary, and what's really troubling.

Originally Posted by Minnerbelle

What makes you think that if you cut out 1 year of vet school, it would be out of clinics, rather than the academic years? A lot of the 1st year material and some of even 2nd year material can be learned just as well during UG. The purpose of clinics is not meant to be catch up time for people to learn tech skills. It's time to put together all the academic components into practice so that you learn doctor skills. No matter how much experience you've had during your pre-vet years, clinics is probably going to still be the most valuable time during vet school. (Edit: haha... just realized like 2 peeps posted the same thing before me)

I agree 100% with the points you made about networking and being open to relocation being key to finding employment though. I'd say that's where good experience throughout your pre-vet and vet school years will really help you out. Sadly... the only real relevant networking I've had is with my bf, with possible employment in the form of marriage. Hopefully that works out . FML FML FML. He really is the love of my life, but it just makes me so uncomfortable to be financially dependent on someone else. Though at the same time, he's the one that's keeping me location restricted (and I have some connections in other parts of the country), so maybe that won't be as bad if I don't get "hired." Time will only tell.

On the whole BF thing... I get that. What got me started on Oregon State was that he has a great job out there... good thing I visited the school and fell in love with it outside of my relationship with him.

A successful relationship does play a huge role in my plans to pay off my student loans... but I have also have had to accept that its possible that it might not work out and then I will be working happily as a poor veterinarian for many years with student loans... lol

.... i just dont see myself doing anything else... at least being rich was never in the plans.

Originally Posted by Minnerbelle

Congrats on the lil one! And you have no idea how much your input does help. As stupid and immature as this sounds, no matter how much I've thought about my future finances (will I be able to buy a house? how bad would having kids be? what to do about retirement? etc...), I have not actually lived outside of the paying rent and living on survival mode. So it's really hard for me to put everything together in terms of exactly how bad things will be, and exactly what I'll be able to afford/not afford. I can only speculate... and even then, it's very segmented. So even if it's coming from someone not dealing with debt, your budget breakdown helps a ton. It let's me really think about how/what to prioritize, what's necessary, and what's really troubling.

Glad it was helpful!! I know back when I was a student (and even when I was working FT before vet school, only making $24k), I often wondered what my budget would be like as a "grown up" and really liked it when people were willing to share their own personal budgets so that I could get some ideas.

Also, keep in mind that I'm supporting my husband and myself. If I were living on my own, that would free up probably another $700-800/month (no tuition, one less car to insure, health insurance, less on groceries and eating out, etc).

Originally Posted by WhtsThFrequency

There have been several, although they don't post much. chickenlittle made some great contributions, but not sure where she went. I can give the perspective of someone specializing, at least.

Me? I'm currently 158,000, in my second year of residency. I went to my in-state school and am in forbearance - can't even really afford to pay interest. After my residency I'm likely going to have to do a PhD. Assuming 1.5 more years of residency and then 4-5 of PhD (during which I will also have to be in forbearance), I'm looking at 200+K and a starting salary in my field of 80 to maybe 100 if I am lucky, unless I sell my soul to Big Pharma and look at hundreds of rat stomachs for some drug study every day and get paid more.

Is in manageable? Barely. It would be better if I has double income (ie hubby or serious SO), but I don't. I won't be able to buy a house, a car, etc for at least four or five more years, maybe more. Kids? Unless my future hubby makes a crapload, likely not until I get a "grownup" job . Is it worth it? Debatable question. I love my job. I love what I do. I consider myself extremely lucky, because not many people can say that about their job. Would I have done it all over again/done things differently? Probably. I went to my in-state school and worked part-time jobs all the way up until fourth year; don't know what else I could have done besides beg my folks or marry rich

However, I will say, for anyone interested in specializing, you do indeed get a big salary bump when you are done. If you can stand the forbearance, do it. And make sure it's a specialty with a job market that is at least stable.

Wow, amazingly valuable information. Thanks so much. Too bad it's about to get lost in a 37 paragraph argument about dropping the 4th year of vet school.

I have to believe that a lot of people will be making the same decision you did for the exact same reason (... so I think it's very representative btw). With low salaries and increased debt after graduation, it makes perfect sense to put that all off and specialize and take it all on later when you're making more money. [I know you're also driven by your interest in pathology]. All of this though was sort of enabled by the fact that you went in-state and finished with a relatively low debt load. Can students who finish with 250K in debt afford the forbearance for 3 years to specialize? My guess is no -- that at some point the debt is so high that the higher specialist salary just doesn't compensate. But I dunno. I imagine there are people out there facing these decisions (with actual numbers) right now. It would awesome if people could follow WTF's lead and like 10 more people posted their experiences. Thanks again.

Originally Posted by Boophilus

Wow, amazingly valuable information. Thanks so much. Too bad it's about to get lost in a 37 paragraph argument about dropping the 4th year of vet school.

I have to believe that a lot of people will be making the same decision you did for the exact same reason (... so I think it's very representative btw). With low salaries and increased debt after graduation, it makes perfect sense to put that all off and specialize and take it all on later when you're making more money. [I know you're also driven by your interest in pathology]. All of this though was sort of enabled by the fact that you went in-state and finished with a relatively low debt load. Can students who finish with 250K in debt afford the forbearance for 3 years to specialize? My guess is no -- that at some point the debt is so high that the higher specialist salary just doesn't compensate. But I dunno. I imagine there are people out there facing these decisions (with actual numbers) right now. It would awesome if people could follow WTF's lead and like 10 more people posted their experiences. Thanks again.

It also depends on the specialty. My passion was working with zoo/exotics. This specialty pays low compared to every other specialty. Zoo vets typically do not make more than $60,000 a year. To follow that path would have been economically foolish

Originally Posted by Boophilus

Wow, amazingly valuable information. Thanks so much. Too bad it's about to get lost in a 37 paragraph argument about dropping the 4th year of vet school.

For real? Is the snarkiness really necessary, especially when this suggestion is an active and very real consideration among, ya know, actual vet schools? WTF always makes excellent points and has a great "real world" position she can speak from, but that hardly makes everything else in this thread invalid.

Originally Posted by dyachei

It also depends on the specialty. My passion was working with zoo/exotics. This specialty pays low compared to every other specialty. Zoo vets typically do not make more than $60,000 a year. To follow that path would have been economically foolish

Agree. Depends on the specialty and if there are jobs available. Each year it is getting harder to for specialists to find a job. Equine medicine is terrible. SA internal medicine is getting bad and the residents are worried about finding jobs. One awesome onco resident only got one job offer last year (I know all you need is one!). My specialty is pathology and I can't find a job and I know numerous pathologists who are unemployed, getting PhDs or have temporary jobs trying to ride out the bad market. I've applied to many jobs and to many in other countries but no luck so far. It is very stressful.

Originally Posted by VET 2008

Agree. Depends on the specialty and if there are jobs available. Each year it is getting harder to for specialists to find a job. Equine medicine is terrible. SA internal medicine is getting bad and the residents are worried about finding jobs. One awesome onco resident only got one job offer last year (I know all you need is one!). My specialty is pathology and I can't find a job and I know numerous pathologists who are unemployed, getting PhDs or have temporary jobs trying to ride out the bad market. I've applied to many jobs and to many in other countries but no luck so far. It is very stressful.

And this terrifies me as someone interested in pathology. All we hear in class is how great a field it is, how many opportunities there are, and how there just aren't enough pathologists to go around. But then I hear from people like you and WTF and the residents at our school who are actually in the front lines right now and are hunting for jobs that aren't there. It's scary trying to make a choice that will let you pay bills and be happy. Do you go for specialization and continue to rack up debt in the hopes that the promise of a better-paying job that you really love will be waiting on the other side? Or do you forgo that and hope that you can snag one of the elusive entry level GP jobs right away? It's still two years away for me and I'm panicked.

Originally Posted by New Foundland

You say your situation is "barely manageable"
Clearly you were referring to your short-term situation rather than your lifelong career. And so was I. I made no comments on the long-term profitability of a specialization.

Yup yup, gotcha.

Originally Posted by New Foundland

only 3 years? How much do you expect to make as a PhD student? (I'm not trying to make a point here, I actually don't know.. I was assuming PhD students wouldn't make more than like 60k, but i'd be interested to hear whether you expect to be making good money during a PhD..)

Like I said...the whole PhD business drives me bonkers. I am NOT happy that the vast majority of veterinary pathology jobs require or highly encourage one. I think it's useless. I'm a diagnostician first and foremost. But in order to work in pharma or academia/teaching hospitals, they are starting to require it. The idiocy is overwhelming. ergh. State diagnostic labs or sendout labs like IDEXX don't want one, and that is where I would love to work...but those jobs are very few and far between. You basically have to wait until someone dies or retires.

PhD students typically make 25 to 30K. Many times even less. So, I would actually be taking a pay CUT if I were to enter any old PhD program. Even though I have a doctorate already, yep. That's another reason I'm trying to wiggle out.

However, NIH-funded ones (which are difficult to get, but some institutions have them) pay anywhere from 40-60K. These are for veterinarians specifically, though. And there arent many. Those I would consider, just because it will make it much easier for me to find jobs in the next 20+ years.

Originally Posted by New Foundland

Find me numbers that exclude just internships? Anybody with 2 years of private practice experience can compete with somebody who has 1 year of internship experience and 1 of PP .. Show me numbers of those pursuing residencies and you'll better understand my point in the previous paragraph..

The AVMA had some numbers a while back. I'm tired from call, or else I would dig them up...ugh. Obviously, the percent of residencies is quite a bit less than internships. However, I still see both increasing. Just wanted to provide an alternative preceptiopn, since I am sure there are at least a couple people here considering specializing.

Originally Posted by NittanyKitty

And this terrifies me as someone interested in pathology. All we hear in class is how great a field it is, how many opportunities there are, and how there just aren't enough pathologists to go around. But then I hear from people like you and WTF and the residents at our school who are actually in the front lines right now and are hunting for jobs that aren't there. It's scary trying to make a choice that will let you pay bills and be happy. Do you go for specialization and continue to rack up debt in the hopes that the promise of a better-paying job that you really love will be waiting on the other side? Or do you forgo that and hope that you can snag one of the elusive entry level GP jobs right away? It's still two years away for me and I'm panicked.

It really depends. There is nothing wrong with practicing first and then going back to specialize - most of my colleagues did. I was a bit stuck, however, because there was no way in hell I could have dealt with a GP job. It would have completely burned me out - I'm an introvert by nature. I hated most clinical practice. For me, it was either residency or PhD as a backup, so i didn't have much choice. I did play around with the idea of being a food animal practitioner, because I also loved that field and found the clients much easier to deal with.....but the market there also didn't look much better.

I don't mean to dissuade you (or anyone, especially from pathology) - I will say pretty much everyone I know in my field has or found a job - sometimes it took longer, and they needed to fall back onto support networks or their Plan Bs, and many had to make compromises on where they wanted to live or what exactly they wanted to to - kind of like getting accepted to vet school. It's not god-awful. But it is definitely difficult, and much more difficult than it used to be.

Originally Posted by NittanyKitty

And this terrifies me as someone interested in pathology. All we hear in class is how great a field it is, how many opportunities there are, and how there just aren't enough pathologists to go around. But then I hear from people like you and WTF and the residents at our school who are actually in the front lines right now and are hunting for jobs that aren't there. It's scary trying to make a choice that will let you pay bills and be happy. Do you go for specialization and continue to rack up debt in the hopes that the promise of a better-paying job that you really love will be waiting on the other side? Or do you forgo that and hope that you can snag one of the elusive entry level GP jobs right away? It's still two years away for me and I'm panicked.

In terms of pathology, I hope some pathologists can retire soon as the economy gets better and this will open up the market again. I think the inability of people to retire is part of what is hurting pathology. Diagnostic jobs are lacking and pathologists have gotten laid off, but hopefully it will grow again as the economy improves. Keep pathology an option because thing can change very quickly and you still have a couple of years before you apply and then 3 years of residency +/- PhD or post-doc. It might be high demand again. It is just going to be hard for the next few years for sure.

There are also pathologists who do research but this often requires post-docs or a PhD so there may still be some demand there? Industry likes PhDs. It is too late to apply for PhD programs for me (need to apply before Dec1!) so I am hoping to get a post-doc but I've talked to people and they are not getting grants like they use to so can't afford a post-doc.

I have been able to pay on my student loans despite being in a residency. Haven't made much of a dent on the principle but I am not accumulating interest and I have been able to save, invest and put into retirement.

Focus on doing well in your classes, making strong connections, get research experience and take out as few loans as possible.

Originally Posted by WhtsThFrequency

Yup yup, gotcha.





Like I said...the whole PhD business drives me bonkers. I am NOT happy that the vast majority of veterinary pathology jobs require or highly encourage one. I think it's useless. I'm a diagnostician first and foremost. But in order to work in pharma or academia/teaching hospitals, they are starting to require it. The idiocy is overwhelming. ergh. State diagnostic labs or sendout labs like IDEXX don't want one, and that is where I would love to work...but those jobs are very few and far between. You basically have to wait until someone dies or retires.

PhD students typically make 25 to 30K. Many times even less. So, I would actually be taking a pay CUT if I were to enter any old PhD program. Even though I have a doctorate already, yep. That's another reason I'm trying to wiggle out.

However, NIH-funded ones (which are difficult to get, but some institutions have them) pay anywhere from 40-60K. These are for veterinarians specifically, though. And there arent many. Those I would consider, just because it will make it much easier for me to find jobs in the next 20+ years.

The PhD thing drives me CRAZY too. You may already know this but: If you apply, try to get a T32 training grant (MN and NCSU have them for sure. Not sure about other places. The deadline is early December or earlier). You might also want to contact Mark Simpson at the NIH (http://ccr.cancer.gov/resources/training/home.asp). They have training opportunities available after a residency. Not 100% sure what the status of the program is though. Consider Post-docs as well.

Originally Posted by VET 2008

The PhD thing drives me CRAZY too. You may already know this but: If you apply, try to get a T32 training grant (MN and NCSU have them for sure. Not sure about other places. The deadline is early December or earlier). You might also want to contact Mark Simpson at the NIH (http://ccr.cancer.gov/resources/training/home.asp). They have training opportunities available after a residency. Not 100% sure what the status of the program is though. Consider Post-docs as well.

Yep, the T32 is what I was talking about. A few places I would consider have them (WI, VA-MD, Cornell, etc). I don't want to stay where I currently am for my PhD....cannot find any projects that interest me and money is scarce. We have a T32 here, but it seems no one can ever get it. Too many people needing it and not enough $.

Mark Simpson is a super cool guy. I've talked to him before although he may not remember me. NIH payscale is also FAR superior than PhDs or generic postdocs. My mentor back home would constantly try and get me to go NIH Of course, what I would love to do it get a diagnostic lab job....sigh...

Originally Posted by August West

Relevant message. Extremely poor, heavy-handed delivery, in my opinion. Perhaps channeling his concerns to fellow professional veterinarians on the other SDN forum or VIN and brainstorming ways to protect the future livelihood of this field would be more productive than trying to discourage pre-vet students in the midst of an application cycle from celebrating acceptances we've diligently worked years to attain or from seeking motivation and guidance to weather on beyond rejections. I hope other future peers in the industry are at least attempting to be more constructive about helping to resolve the challenges our profession faces. Best of luck.

Originally Posted by Fireflysushi

HahahaI agree that he/she has been extremely tactless in their efforts to prevent pre-vets from entering such a "GRAVE" situation. Perhaps reality has suddenly set in for them as they start to pay back their loans, and they have forgotten the drive that originally led them to pursue vet med. I certainly think that it is a good idea to warn pre-vets about debt related issues as they attempt to gain admission- the more we know upon entering and taking out 100000s of thousands in loans the better. However as Trilt mentioned, the SDN comminity in particular discusses this issue quite frequently.

Completely on board with these two opinions. I fully support the stance that people need to face facts about the economic status in this country and the vet med field and how it will affect your debt/life/future in the long run. However, it's bothersome to me when veterinarians or just "realists" of whatever kind come in here and flat out tell people "DON'T GO TO VET SCHOOL."

..............but you did?? Yea, things aren't necessarily great for you now, but I would wager you had the same hopes and dreams for it as the student or students you're trying to dissuade. It's not like talking to a 16 year old having boyfriend issues. It's people's dreams and ambitions and to try and discourage them from having a go at it is useless. EVEN if you're right, your real world sob stories and post-vet school nightmares probably aren't going to change their mind. I'm tired of people coming in here to be an ambassador for the Disgruntled Vet School Graduates and everyone applauding them and deeming anyone who may not feel the same as a rose-colored-glasses-out-of-touch-with-reality fruitloop. /endrant.

Originally Posted by lei325

Unfortunately, I'm one of those people in vet school that didn't have the option of an in-state school, and I only got into one school (waitlisted at a second). I went into this with wide open eyes about the debt I would incur (which is well over the average $107,000 vet grads walk away with), and for me, that's ok. But I've checked multiple job sites (VIN included) and I still see plenty of active job offers around.

THIS. My thoughts and situation exactly.

Originally Posted by VET 2008

Agree. Depends on the specialty and if there are jobs available. Each year it is getting harder to for specialists to find a job. Equine medicine is terrible. SA internal medicine is getting bad and the residents are worried about finding jobs. One awesome onco resident only got one job offer last year (I know all you need is one!). My specialty is pathology and I can't find a job and I know numerous pathologists who are unemployed, getting PhDs or have temporary jobs trying to ride out the bad market. I've applied to many jobs and to many in other countries but no luck so far. It is very stressful.

Your job market argument is noted, but I feel compelled to remind you that not everyone has dreams of specializing. Also, the level of difficulty of finding a vet job is relative to where you live in the country. If you live in the Northeast US (ex: Nevada), I'm sure that you certainly are having above average difficulty. It's much harder to find work up there than it is in the Southern US (ex: Texas).

If your adamant attempts at warning would-be vet students about vet school are based mainly on your geographic location that's in significant economic distress and passion for wanting to specialize, you're not really representing a well-distributed, majority of the population of your audience.