ABT: Military Medical Students at Rocky Vista

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I was reading the forums and was looking at the new osteopathic medical school Rocky Vista and noticed they had a huge military medicine contingent at their program. Larger than my medical school my class size was roughly 300 medical students at a top 10 Medical school. I did some research and noticed that their school does not accept federal stafford loans (probably a huge factor in aiding military recruitment). This is all about the money, not a desire to serve. This does not make sense why the .mil would give scholarships to a school where the students cannot get stafford loans(as well as untested). Mind boggling.

Originally Posted by narcusprince

I was reading the forums and was looking at the new osteopathic medical school Rocky Vista and noticed they had a huge military medicine contingent at their program. Larger than my medical school my class size was roughly 300 medical students at a top 10 Medical school. Its because at a top 10 school the students know better than to sign up for HPSP. I did some research and noticed that their school does not accept federal stafford loans (probably a huge factor in aiding military recruitment). This is all about the money, not a desire to serve. You cant possibly know that. Ive met some of their students at various AF training and they seemed pretty gung ho about serving. Maybe it does drive their numbers up, but you cant claim its all about the money. This does not make sense why the .mil would give scholarships to a school where the students cannot get stafford loans(as well as untested). Mind boggling.

I wouldnt say its mind boggling. Schools cannot get federal funding until they are fully accredited and they cannot be fully accredited until they graduate a class. RVUs first class will graduate this year.

Yes there is some risk in the school not getting accreditation but prob not likely. Its a med school and the .mil is getting their doctors in the end.

Originally Posted by teacherman84

Its a med school and the .mil is getting their doctors in the end.

We will see about that.

Originally Posted by Gastrapathy

We will see about that.

Their student from this year have already matched into .mil residencies, they are getting their docs.

Originally Posted by teacherman84

Their student from this year have already matched into .mil residencies, they are getting their docs.

No, they are getting their RVU grads. Whether they are getting capable, independent board-certified physicians remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by Gastrapathy

No, they are getting their RVU grads. Whether they are getting capable, independent board-certified physicians remains to be seen.

Ok, at this point that is true. But their students are passing boards and impressing PDs enough to land positions at programs so whatever they are doing is working. I know everyone likes to dump on the place on here but I don't see how they are going to not accredit the place now...if it wasn't going to get accreditation you think they would've stopped it before 4 classes matriculated.

I will add to this. RVU only allows the top 85% of graduates to take boards in the appropriate time and the bottom 15% are told to take boards later. Versus my medical school all MS had to take boards in May/June time frame. Their is a learning process where you learn to do things efficiently and within a timeframe that even to this day is essential to being a stellar resident. In my residency we have a tradition of not taking Caribbean grads because of the way they are taught and allowed to take the boards late. These residents tend to do weaker on their boards because as stated they never get organized. I am so glad that the University of Colorado is in the proposal stages of expanding their medical school so that they can apply the University standard to all the medical students in Colorado. I hope to be involved in medical education as well as resident education.

Originally Posted by narcusprince

I will add to this. RVU only allows the top 85% of graduates to take boards in the appropriate time and the bottom 15% are told to take boards later. Versus my medical school all MS had to take boards in May/June time frame. Their is a learning process where you learn to do things efficiently and within a timeframe that even to this day is essential to being a stellar resident. In my residency we have a tradition of not taking Caribbean grads because of the way they are taught and allowed to take the boards late. These residents tend to do weaker on their boards because as stated they never get organized. I am so glad that the University of Colorado is in the proposal stages of expanding their medical school so that they can apply the University standard to all the medical students in Colorado. I hope to be involved in medical education as well as resident education.

And I'm sure the organized students at a top 10 medical school are a different caliber student than the bottom 15% of RVU...they probably aren't applying for anesthesia at Cleveland Clinic either so don't fret.

Yes, some things about RVU are sketchy but there are enough threads on here beating that topic to death. This was about the military giving scholarships to students there, not the downward spiral in military medicine due to the increase in mediorce DO students.getting scholarships.

He started the thread. Its about whatever he wants it to be about.

Originally Posted by Gastrapathy

He started the thread. Its about whatever he wants it to be about.

Thanks for contributing.

Originally Posted by teacherman84

Thanks for contributing.

OK, here's my contribution. Teaching became much less fun the last few years of my time in the .mil because of the quality issues. This isn't going to help. Now I teach average allopathic students. Its nice.

I had a ton of RVU students in my platoon at BOLC last summer. As far as motivation to be in the military, most seemed genuine and were pretty gung-ho about everything. None seemed motivated solely by finances to accept the HPSP.

I can't speak to their knowledge or ability, but some of them had a chip on their shoulder due the school's reputation which made them put in more effort. Whether that results in adequate residents will be seen shortly I suppose.

Just my anecdotal input.

Originally Posted by narcusprince

I was reading the forums and was looking at the new osteopathic medical school Rocky Vista and noticed they had a huge military medicine contingent at their program. Larger than my medical school my class size was roughly 300 medical students at a top 10 Medical school. I did some research and noticed that their school does not accept federal stafford loans (probably a huge factor in aiding military recruitment). This is all about the money, not a desire to serve. This does not make sense why the .mil would give scholarships to a school where the students cannot get stafford loans(as well as untested). Mind boggling.

The military gets a lot of HPSP'ers from DO schools in general, for two main reasons.

1) A lot of DO schools are really really expensive.

2) During the recent pre-bonus/Iraq-in-high-gear lean years of HPSP recruiting, the average quality of HPSP'ers definitely declined as competition for the program evaporated. The program went further down the applicant list, ending with more DOs who (on average) have lower gpas/MCAT scores.

The truth is that most people who apply for and accept an HPSP slot really know very little about the program other than "pays for medical school and I serve for 4 years in return" ... there is very much a $ motivated calculation going on. And that's not wrong by default. Money matters and debt aversion is very rational.

Recruiters are rarely well-informed, and their prime objective (recruit a body) is at odds with what's best for the applicant and the military. If the point of the selection process is to ensure a good match for the military, it seems like an informed applicant is desirable. Maybe I'm crazy.



I interviewed an Navy HPSP applicant a few hours ago. By all appearances, he's a smart and capable guy with some very impressive accomplishments. My guess is he'll do great wherever he goes, with or without HPSP money.

He didn't know what a GMO is or does, or how the GME1/GME2+ selection process works, or how HPSP/residency concurrent payback functions. Not because he's an idiot ... it's just that there's no effort to present information to the applicants, and (outside of this forum) really no place to get that information.

I was the third person to interview him, and apparently the previous two didn't see fit to ask or talk about these issues. I don't know WTF they did ask about but it was probably useless boring "why do you want to be a doctor" crap that gets a rehearsed rote conservative answer. This really surprises me, as I think they are by FAR the top three issues that lead to hate and discontent in people who don't understand them before signing up.

I've got another interview tomorrow with an applicant whose stellar #s and CV surely opened the door to every medical school in the country. I bet that applicant won't know anything about GMOs, or "officer vs physician" issues, or what milmed has done with the retiree caseload over the last 20 years either.


My point is just that HPSP recruiting is (and always has been) a really poorly run system that does an especially terrible job educating applicants exactly what they're applying for. I don't think it's deliberate concealment of drawbacks to military service and the medical corps ... I think the recruiters are genuinely ignorant and think the only pertinent information concerns $ paid and years owed (which they bone up 9 times in 10 anyway). So we shouldn't be to surprised or too judgmental when we get a disproportionate number of applicants from really expensive schools.

Because in the end, HPSP advertising isn't at all like a Marine Corps commercial offering brotherhood and honorable service. It is deliberately marketed as a "$ for med school" program, not a "sign up to serve" program. I think that's stupid and counterproductive, but nobody ever asked for my opinion. Frankly, I'm surprised they asked me to interview people in the first place.

Originally Posted by pgg

The military gets a lot of HPSP'ers from DO schools in general, for two main reasons.

1) A lot of DO schools are really really expensive.

2) During the recent pre-bonus/Iraq-in-high-gear lean years of HPSP recruiting, the average quality of HPSP'ers definitely declined as competition for the program evaporated. The program went further down the applicant list, ending with more DOs who (on average) have lower gpas/MCAT scores.

The truth is that most people who apply for and accept an HPSP slot really know very little about the program other than "pays for medical school and I serve for 4 years in return" ... there is very much a $ motivated calculation going on. And that's not wrong by default. Money matters and debt aversion is very rational.

Recruiters are rarely well-informed, and their prime objective (recruit a body) is at odds with what's best for the applicant and the military. If the point of the selection process is to ensure a good match for the military, it seems like an informed applicant is desirable. Maybe I'm crazy.



I interviewed an Navy HPSP applicant a few hours ago. By all appearances, he's a smart and capable guy with some very impressive accomplishments. My guess is he'll do great wherever he goes, with or without HPSP money.

He didn't know what a GMO is or does, or how the GME1/GME2+ selection process works, or how HPSP/residency concurrent payback functions. Not because he's an idiot ... it's just that there's no effort to present information to the applicants, and (outside of this forum) really no place to get that information.

I was the third person to interview him, and apparently the previous two didn't see fit to ask or talk about these issues. I don't know WTF they did ask about but it was probably useless boring "why do you want to be a doctor" crap that gets a rehearsed rote conservative answer. This really surprises me, as I think they are by FAR the top three issues that lead to hate and discontent in people who don't understand them before signing up.

I've got another interview tomorrow with an applicant whose stellar #s and CV surely opened the door to every medical school in the country. I bet that applicant won't know anything about GMOs, or "officer vs physician" issues, or what milmed has done with the retiree caseload over the last 20 years either.


My point is just that HPSP recruiting is (and always has been) a really poorly run system that does an especially terrible job educating applicants exactly what they're applying for. I don't think it's deliberate concealment of drawbacks to military service and the medical corps ... I think the recruiters are genuinely ignorant and think the only pertinent information concerns $ paid and years owed (which they bone up 9 times in 10 anyway). So we shouldn't be to surprised or too judgmental when we get a disproportionate number of applicants from really expensive schools.

Because in the end, HPSP advertising isn't at all like a Marine Corps commercial offering brotherhood and honorable service. It is deliberately marketed as a "$ for med school" program, not a "sign up to serve" program. I think that's stupid and counterproductive, but nobody ever asked for my opinion. Frankly, I'm surprised they asked me to interview people in the first place.

Good post! I wish the HPSP/HSCP recruited more from within the ranks, but unfortunately (according to instruction) it is primarily a civilian accession program that will accept active duty military applicants on a case by case basis (per manning).

You wouldn't believe the number of capable applicants interested in medicine (with B.S. degrees and good grades) currently serving that have absolutely no clue that these programs even exist (both officers and enlisted).

If they advertised these programs more from within the military (especially military medicine) then they would get students who thoroughly understand the expectations and are grateful for the opportunities.

Originally Posted by Gastrapathy

OK, here's my contribution. Teaching became much less fun the last few years of my time in the .mil because of the quality issues. This isn't going to help. Now I teach average allopathic students. Its nice.

Well Im sorry you had such a rough time trying to teach incompetent residents and I respect that you are speaking based on experience. The issue of HPSP selection standards has been hashed out here in the past.

Yes, they do need to be more selective in giving out scholarships and Im sure if they were there would be fewer mediocre students. That being said I'm sure RVU is going to graduate their share of great physicians as will the other osteopathic schools. Change the standards but judge students by their ability and performance not because of their school.

This statement of judging them based on school is ideal in a perfect world. However, this is not how your GME application works. Their are sections on the GME application that rank stength of medical school. And on the civillian side strength of medical school is a part of the application to residency. So in a perfect world yes it should not be an issue. In reality things are much different.

Originally Posted by narcusprince

This statement of judging them based on school is ideal in a perfect world. However, this is not how your GME application works. Their are sections on the GME application that rank stength of medical school. And on the civillian side strength of medical school is a part of the application to residency. So in a perfect world yes it should not be an issue. In reality things are much different.

I was speaking more about selection of students for the HPSP scholarship, but yes I am aware it doesnt work out that way in GME either.

An RVU grad who got stellar boards scores (and took them on time) and impressed everyone on an audition rotation should be ranked above a mediocre student from a top 10 medical school), but I know that's not always reality.

Originally Posted by corpsman33

Good post! I wish the HPSP/HSCP recruited more from within the ranks, but unfortunately (according to instruction) it is primarily a civilian accession program that will accept active duty military applicants on a case by case basis (per manning).

You wouldn't believe the number of capable applicants interested in medicine (with B.S. degrees and good grades) currently serving that have absolutely no clue that these programs even exist (both officers and enlisted).

If they advertised these programs more from within the military (especially military medicine) then they would get students who thoroughly understand the expectations and are grateful for the opportunities.

The reason there is little or no internal recruiting is because the military generally doesn't WANT career physicians. People with prior service who go HPSP or USUHS are far more likely to stay for 20 years and get retirement benefits, which are expensive.

The bean counters have made a simple cost analysis that tells them that civilian-recruited physicians serve just as many years in a medical capacity as internally-recruited physicians, but cost far far less over their lifetimes.

Originally Posted by pgg

The reason there is little or no internal recruiting is because the military generally doesn't WANT career physicians. People with prior service who go HPSP or USUHS are far more likely to stay for 20 years and get retirement benefits, which are expensive.

The bean counters have made a simple cost analysis that tells them that civilian-recruited physicians serve just as many years in a medical capacity as internally-recruited physicians, but cost far far less over their lifetimes.

Is the amount of prior-service time a selection factor for HPSP/HSCP boards?

Originally Posted by blife

Is the amount of prior-service time a selection factor for HPSP/HSCP boards?

I'm sure it's a factor, and a positive one when it comes to the actual selection board.


I should add that my post above re: reasons why civilian recruiting is favored is simply my opinion and understanding, some of it borne of frustrated and cynical observations of the way the Navy manages itself. It shouldn't be taken as a definitive explanation or a reflection of official Navy policy.

I am not involved with HPSP or other recruitment efforts, except as a periodic interviewer. The two I did last week were the first I've been involved with in quite some time. I am not on the selection board and my only input for those applicants was the interview eval form.


Part of the anti-internal-recruitment bias has a less cynical explanation - the people who are already on active duty were recruited and trained to do a job that is not medicine, and those not-medicine communities aren't going to be thrilled about losing their people to us. For example, the Naval Academy has a pretty strict and low quota on the number of their graduates who are allowed to even apply to medical school. The Academy is not there to educate pre-meds, it's not their mission.

Originally Posted by teacherman84

I was speaking more about selection of students for the HPSP scholarship, but yes I am aware it doesnt work out that way in GME either.

An RVU grad who got stellar boards scores (and took them on time) and impressed everyone on an audition rotation should be ranked above a mediocre student from a top 10 medical school), but I know that's not always reality.

So if person A got accepted to Rocky Vista with the same board scores and grades as person B whom got accepted at an allopathic program. Person B would get selected for HPSP scholarship because the strength of school of person B would be better than A's. Not to beat a dead horse. The military would be smart to recruit person B from said allopathic school. Not getting into the MD DO debate. Thats the way the scholarship should be with the most competitive medical student at the most competitive program from the top down.

Originally Posted by narcusprince

So if person A got accepted to Rocky Vista with the same board scores and grades as person B whom got accepted at an allopathic program. Person B would get selected for HPSP scholarship because the strength of school of person B would be better than A's. Not to beat a dead horse. The military would be smart to recruit person B from said allopathic school. Not getting into the MD DO debate. Thats the way the scholarship should be with the most competitive medical student at the most competitive program from the top down.

And say person B, from run of the mill allopathic state, with the same scores as person C, at your fantastic top ten school both apply for the scholarship. The mil should always select person C ahead of B, correct?

Well you are beating a dead horse...and you've made your views of superiority clear. So unless you and your top 10 crew start recruiting hard, it looks like your stuck with us DOs filling the ranks.

Originally Posted by teacherman84

And say person B, from run of the mill allopathic state, with the same scores as person C, at your fantastic top ten school both apply for the scholarship. The mil should always select person C ahead of B, correct?

Well you are beating a dead horse...and you've made your views of superiority clear. So unless you and your top 10 crew start recruiting hard, it looks like your stuck with us DOs filling the ranks.

No amount of recruiting will bring back the applicant pool of the 80s and 90s. A decade of war, AHLTA, Tricare, truth in advertising (SDN), and a host of other issues have left us here. I'm sorry you're offended but the stats don't lie. Watch the board pass rates of the last couple of years/next few years for the noncompetitive specialties. Our current applicant quality is a huge problem. The mean GPA and MCAT for HPSP acceptees from 2008 are not competitive numbers for an average allopathic school.

The problem with all of these A versus B discussions is that person A hasn't joined the .mil in years.

Add to that the fact that you can't fail everyone (or really almost anyone), and you are left with a system with doctors that I wouldn't want taking care of me or my family.

I want to make this clear this is not a DO vs MD argument. I have served with and recruited stellar DO's for my residency program. This is an argument that the .mil is disproportionally taking students from RVU the only for profit, stafford loan less, school in the country. I wonder if RVU sends out acceptances earlier than most MD or DO programs in order to secure scholarships earlier?

Originally Posted by pgg

The reason there is little or no internal recruiting is because the military generally doesn't WANT career physicians. People with prior service who go HPSP or USUHS are far more likely to stay for 20 years and get retirement benefits, which are expensive.

The bean counters have made a simple cost analysis that tells them that civilian-recruited physicians serve just as many years in a medical capacity as internally-recruited physicians, but cost far far less over their lifetimes.

Wow....I hope this is not the case. I already have my selection letter in hand...., but nevertheless I can easily see the diference between prior enlisted medical corps, and those fresh from college.

The prior military experience helps develop motivated, squared away, officers who exude a level of military bearing not often seen in other individuals (or at least this has been my experience). People will follow men like this, and medicine aside, medical corps officers will eventually become department heads, who become directors, who later become Generals/Admirals leading commands. In my opinion the prior experience is well worth the money, but what do I know.....I am just a lowly E-5.......

Originally Posted by corpsman33

Wow....I hope this is not the case. I already have my selection letter in hand...., but nevertheless I can easily see the diference between prior enlisted medical corps, and those fresh from college.

The prior military experience helps develop motivated, squared away, officers who exude a level of military bearing not often seen in other individuals (or at least this has been my experience). People will follow men like this, and medicine aside, medical corps officers will eventually become department heads, who become directors, who later become Generals/Admirals leading commands. In my opinion the prior experience is well worth the money, but what do I know.....I am just a lowly E-5.......

I understand your points. However, If you look at previous Surgeon Generals or other MC Generals I don't see that they had significant prior service (enlisted or officer service) before doing HPSP.

I spent several years enlisted time before doing HPSP and I don't find myself better adapted or performing better than my colleagues who are not prior service. I feel just as frustrated in military medicine...

Originally Posted by Gastrapathy

No amount of recruiting will bring back the applicant pool of the 80s and 90s. A decade of war, AHLTA, Tricare, truth in advertising (SDN), and a host of other issues have left us here. I'm sorry you're offended but the stats don't lie. Watch the board pass rates of the last couple of years/next few years for the noncompetitive specialties. Our current applicant quality is a huge problem. The mean GPA and MCAT for HPSP acceptees from 2008 are not competitive numbers for an average allopathic school.

The problem with all of these A versus B discussions is that person A hasn't joined the .mil in years.

Add to that the fact that you can't fail everyone (or really almost anyone), and you are left with a system with doctors that I wouldn't want taking care of me or my family.

Im not offended by what your saying and I agree that the standards are too low...I have seen first hand some people who should not have received the scholarship. I also recognize that the majority of these students are probably at DO schools. Im not denying that. I am bothered by lumping all students together as incompetent based on their degree or the school.

Originally Posted by narcusprince

I want to make this clear this is not a DO vs MD argument. I have served with and recruited stellar DO's for my residency program. This is an argument that the .mil is disproportionally taking students from RVU the only for profit, stafford loan less, school in the country. I wonder if RVU sends out acceptances earlier than most MD or DO programs in order to secure scholarships earlier?

Well that's the way your last post came off. Here are some numbers of military matched students...this may not include those that were civilian deferred but its probably a good representation:
ATSU-SOMA 6 5.7%
DMUCOM 16 6.8%
GA-PCOM 8 9.0%
KCOM 12 7.1%
KCUMBCOM 15 5.4%
LECOM 10 3.5%
LECOM-BRAD 12 7.5%
LMU-DCOM 13 8.5%
MSUCOM 6 2.6%
MWU-AZCOM 13 5.3%
MWU-CCOM 9 4.9%
NSUCOM 18 6.8%
NYCOM 12 3.7%
OSUCOM 3 3.1%
OUCOM 13 10.6%
PCOM 10 3.4%
PNWUCOM 7 9.9%
RVUCOM 17 13.2%
TOUROCOM 5 3.6%
TUCOM-CA 6 3.9%
TUNCOM 14 8.6%
UMDNJSOM 3 2.5%
UNECOM 12 8.9%
UNTHSCTCOM 10 5.7%
UP-KYCOM 1 1.4%
VCOM 17 8.4%
WESTUCOMP 6 2.6%
WVSOM 15 8.0%
TOTALS: 289 5.8%

The military is taking willing students, regardless of where they come from. Again, I agree they should raise the standards but it doesn't do any good to bash individual schools. If that's your goal go join in on the premed forums.

Originally Posted by pgg

I'm sure it's a factor, and a positive one when it comes to the actual selection board.


I should add that my post above re: reasons why civilian recruiting is favored is simply my opinion and understanding, some of it borne of frustrated and cynical observations of the way the Navy manages itself. It shouldn't be taken as a definitive explanation or a reflection of official Navy policy.

I am not involved with HPSP or other recruitment efforts, except as a periodic interviewer. The two I did last week were the first I've been involved with in quite some time. I am not on the selection board and my only input for those applicants was the interview eval form.


Part of the anti-internal-recruitment bias has a less cynical explanation - the people who are already on active duty were recruited and trained to do a job that is not medicine, and those not-medicine communities aren't going to be thrilled about losing their people to us. For example, the Naval Academy has a pretty strict and low quota on the number of their graduates who are allowed to even apply to medical school. The Academy is not there to educate pre-meds, it's not their mission.

pgg, thanks for your response. I have a pretty good chunk of prior time so I was a little worried about how the selection board might view this.

As for prior time making a more 'squared away' .mil physician, eh, maybe. The biggest prior service slacker (squared away-wise) I know will be a future .mil doctor, so I think it's all dependent on the individual.

Originally Posted by teacherman84

Im not offended by what your saying and I agree that the standards are too low...I have seen first hand some people who should not have received the scholarship. I also recognize that the majority of these students are probably at DO schools. Im not denying that. I am bothered by lumping all students together as incompetent based on their degree or the school.



Well that's the way your last post came off. Here are some numbers of military matched students...this may not include those that were civilian deferred but its probably a good representation:
ATSU-SOMA 6 5.7%
DMUCOM 16 6.8%
GA-PCOM 8 9.0%
KCOM 12 7.1%
KCUMBCOM 15 5.4%
LECOM 10 3.5%
LECOM-BRAD 12 7.5%
LMU-DCOM 13 8.5%
MSUCOM 6 2.6%
MWU-AZCOM 13 5.3%
MWU-CCOM 9 4.9%
NSUCOM 18 6.8%
NYCOM 12 3.7%
OSUCOM 3 3.1%
OUCOM 13 10.6%
PCOM 10 3.4%
PNWUCOM 7 9.9%
RVUCOM 17 13.2%
TOUROCOM 5 3.6%
TUCOM-CA 6 3.9%
TUNCOM 14 8.6%
UMDNJSOM 3 2.5%
UNECOM 12 8.9%
UNTHSCTCOM 10 5.7%
UP-KYCOM 1 1.4%
VCOM 17 8.4%
WESTUCOMP 6 2.6%
WVSOM 15 8.0%
TOTALS: 289 5.8%

The military is taking willing students, regardless of where they come from. Again, I agree they should raise the standards but it doesn't do any good to bash individual schools. If that's your goal go join in on the premed forums.

I'm sorry, on average these new HPSP students (usually DO grads) are really really dumb. In many instances they are not trainable. Trust me I teach them, foreign grads and MD school medical students and residents daily. I honestly and floored by the lack of basic intellect and astoundingly poor judgment these individuals show. It is depressing and a reason why I have stopped recommending the military as a medical career. Bash me all you want for pointing out the obvious but it is my license, and reputation they practice on. This has led to a dramatic increase in my stress and job dissatisfaction. Honestly, the DO horde is a plaque on the military medical community. Not everyone who wants to be a doctor SHOULD be a doctor. We don't need more DO schools. We need a medical climate which makes being a doctor more desirable and thus encourages the best and brightest to apply to medical school. Off soapbox.

Originally Posted by a1qwerty55

I'm sorry, on average these new HPSP students (usually DO grads) are really really dumb. In many instances they are not trainable. Trust me I teach them, foreign grads and MD school medical students and residents daily. I honestly and floored by the lack of basic intellect and astoundingly poor judgment these individuals show. It is depressing and a reason why I have stopped recommending the military as a medical career. Bash me all you want for pointing out the obvious but it is my license, and reputation they practice on. This has led to a dramatic increase in my stress and job dissatisfaction. Honestly, the DO horde is a plaque on the military medical community. Not everyone who wants to be a doctor SHOULD be a doctor. We don't need more DO schools. We need a medical climate which makes being a doctor more desirable and thus encourages the best and brightest to apply to medical school. Off soapbox.

I'm a 3rd year Navy HPSP student attending a DO school. I had a 30+ MCAT, a 240 on the USMLE step 1, and a 600+ COMLEX level 1.

A "plaque on the military medical community"? Seriously? Is this how my attendings are going to percieve me when I'm doing my 4th year clerkships and applying for internship?

Originally Posted by a1qwerty55

I'm sorry, on average these new HPSP students (usually DO grads) are really really dumb. In many instances they are not trainable. Trust me I teach them, foreign grads and MD school medical students and residents daily. I honestly and floored by the lack of basic intellect and astoundingly poor judgment these individuals show. It is depressing and a reason why I have stopped recommending the military as a medical career. Bash me all you want for pointing out the obvious but it is my license, and reputation they practice on. This has led to a dramatic increase in my stress and job dissatisfaction. Honestly, the DO horde is a plaque on the military medical community. Not everyone who wants to be a doctor SHOULD be a doctor. We don't need more DO schools. We need a medical climate which makes being a doctor more desirable and thus encourages the best and brightest to apply to medical school. Off soapbox.

As a second year DO student, I tend to agree that the low end of the curve perhaps shouldn't be doctors, though myself and my two other army HPSP colleagues are near the top of our class. The fact that we're DO students doesn't outright make us "really really dumb."

I think of the MD/DO populations as two distinct normal distributions that are super-imposed on one another. On the tail ends you have two groups that are clearly not the same, though in the middle you've got a significant chunk that are qualitatively similar.

I realize this doesn't necessarily seem to be the point of the thread, but I figured I'd add my two cents.

Originally Posted by AhoyMateys

I'm a 3rd year Navy HPSP student attending a DO school. I had a 30+ MCAT, a 240 on the USMLE step 1, and a 600+ COMLEX level 1.

A "plaque on the military medical community"? Seriously? Is this how my attendings are going to percieve me when I'm doing my 4th year clerkships and applying for internship?

"Not trainable" is a harsh word. His view is personal and I disagree.

As one of military attending I expect medical students to work hard and feel compassion toward their patients. If you care about patients I hope medical students will work hard to acquire necessary knowledge to practice evidence based medicine. You are medical students, you are there to learn and make mistakes. You will make much more mistakes when you become interns and residents as you take on more responsibilities. During your training period (medical students, intern, resident, fellowship) you are learning to become a doctor.

Personally, I feel that those doctors who are lazy, lie and don't care about their patients should not become doctors.

Originally Posted by Roberie

As a second year DO student, I tend to agree that the low end of the curve perhaps shouldn't be doctors, though myself and my two other army HPSP colleagues are near the top of our class. The fact that we're DO students doesn't outright make us "really really dumb."

I think of the MD/DO populations as two distinct normal distributions that are super-imposed on one another. On the tail ends you have two groups that are clearly not the same, though in the middle you've got a significant chunk that are qualitatively similar.

I realize this doesn't necessarily seem to be the point of the thread, but I figured I'd add my two cents.

Ok you are they guy with two legs running in the paralympics - top of the class means what when you are riding the short bus?

If anyone took the time to read my post - in detail - they would realize I used the terms on average and most (not all). I have plenty of posts on this site which describe positive interactions and respect I have for DO colleagues. There is no denying that the caliber of HPSP matriculants is much worse than it was 10-20 years ago, that is MD and DO HPSP students. The DO schools do take people who intellectually (sorry but true), are not as strong ON AVERAGE as someone who goes to the average MD school. Case in point, today which is my daily experience - my MD med student can answer like 80% more clinical questions that my dense... but pleasant... DO resident who thinks he is going to train in my specialty. You could superimpose the bell curves but you'd have to artificially shift the DO one to the right to overlap the MD programs. While DO's can't seem to look in the mirror and accept this - this is reality... I'm sorry if you were so **** hot - why didn't you go to Hopkins, or UVa, or St. Louis U, or UC whatever? I had no clue DO schools existed when I applied to medical school because my health professions advisor didn't even feel they were worth mentioning. I am NOT a DO hater - I am however a hater of PC baloney -

Originally Posted by haujun

"Not trainable" is a harsh word. His view is personal and I disagree.

As one of military attending I expect medical students to work hard and feel compassion toward their patients. If you care about patients I hope medical students will work hard to acquire necessary knowledge to practice evidence based medicine. You are medical students, you are there to learn and make mistakes. You will make much more mistakes when you become interns and residents as you take on more responsibilities. During your training period (medical students, intern, resident, fellowship) you are learning to become a doctor.

Personally, I feel that those doctors who are lazy, lie and don't care about their patients should not become doctors.

OK- I think we all agree that lazy, lying doctors are bad - how about doctors who aren't smart enough to be doctors?

While desire and work is great, you actually have to have the tools (IQ and clinical acumen) to be a safe physician. Untrainable means that SOME (not all) people graduating from random letter generatorCOM and the bottom tier of MD schools seem to not have developed enough sulci and gyri to get from one end of the room to the other yet they feel that ala "Rudy" if they just try hard enough they can pull it off........ not with my patients or my family thank you.

If you are a DO - great! - now f'ing crush the USMLE boards not the COMLEX - be diligent and knowledgeable and you will do great. If on every rotation they keep telling you that you are nice.. hard working.. but your fund of knowledge is well below your peers - this means you are dense as a stone since docs rarely give honest negative feedback.

Originally Posted by AhoyMateys

I'm a 3rd year Navy HPSP student attending a DO school. I had a 30+ MCAT, a 240 on the USMLE step 1, and a 600+ COMLEX level 1.

A "plaque on the military medical community"? Seriously? Is this how my attendings are going to percieve me when I'm doing my 4th year clerkships and applying for internship?

You will be judged based on performance by most of us - I have listed DO students at the top of my OML for residency. You however are not the typical DO student based on your numbers.

Originally Posted by a1qwerty55

OK- I think we all agree that lazy, lying doctors are bad - how about doctors who aren't smart enough to be doctors?

While desire and work is great, you actually have to have the tools (IQ and clinical acumen) to be a safe physician. .

While I don't think every doctors possesses ability to develop required technical skills/clinical acumen during training period to become "safe" neurosurgeon and there are many specialties in the field of medicine that an "average" IQ physician can choose from. What is your minimum IQ score to become a safe physician?

Originally Posted by a1qwerty55

. While DO's can't seem to look in the mirror and accept this - this is reality... I'm sorry if you were so **** hot - why didn't you go to Hopkins, or UVa, or St. Louis U, or UC whatever? -

I am curious what do you tell those (ignorant people btw) who asked if you are such a great doctor why are you **** still in the military?

Originally Posted by a1qwerty55

You will be judged based on performance by most of us - I have listed DO students at the top of my OML for residency. You however are not the typical DO student based on your numbers.

You sounded a lot like...I am not racist I have a lot of black friends.

Originally Posted by haujun

I am curious what do you tell those (ignorant people btw) who asked if you are such a great doctor why are you **** still in the military?

Every heard of indentured servitude?

Originally Posted by haujun

While I don't think every doctors possesses ability to develop required technical skills/clinical acumen during training period to become "safe" neurosurgeon and there are many specialties in the field of medicine that an "average" IQ physician can choose from. What is your minimum IQ score to become a safe physician?

An interesting question. I think we all get that being a doctor is not all about IQ, and test scores, but is also isn't all about hard work and desire. I run into docs who can't seem to master some basic concepts (not technical skills) even when drilled into their head daily. This is what scares me.

.

Originally Posted by acesup123

a1qwerty55, you have no one to blame but your MD brethren who are too scared to join the military once the 2 wars broke out. At least the "inferior" DOs have the courage to do something that MDs don't.
So if you want to generalize on average DOs have larger balls than MDs who have smaller balls.
I would take a lower MCAT score and have larger balls any day.

Posts like this are the opposite of helpful. I was trying to make a point that DOs are not necessarily "really really dumb". You're not helping my case.

Originally Posted by acesup123

a1qwerty55, you have no one to blame but your MD brethren who are too scared to join the military once the 2 wars broke out. At least the "inferior" DOs have the courage to do something that MDs don't.
So if you want to generalize on average DOs have larger balls than MDs who have smaller balls.

You don't actually think "courage" accounts for the recruiting patterns of HPSP and the military in general, do you?

Originally Posted by acesup123

I would take a lower MCAT score and have larger balls any day.

It's interesting that you bring that up. We don't carry rifles and kick in doors.

There's plenty of disagreement on this forum, but one thing that almost 99% of us strongly agree about is that the military has enough officers, and they need us to be doctors more than officers. It's not adventure summer camp.

And if you ask the average Lance Corporal who's sick or wounded, if he'd rather have the doctor with the better scores over the ballsy guy with the drop holster he got off ebay.

This thread is making me feel like my decision to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX is justified, despite everyone's advice that USMLE doesn't matter in milmed.

Originally Posted by acesup123

a1qwerty55, you have no one to blame but your MD brethren who are too scared to join the military once the 2 wars broke out. At least the "inferior" DOs have the courage to do something that MDs don't.
So if you want to generalize on average DOs have larger balls than MDs who have smaller balls.
I would take a lower MCAT score and have larger balls any day.

Yea, man! **** smart doctors in the military! They better have big ****ing balls so they can get the hooah stuff done, you tracking?! **** yea, you're tracking. You know what's up.

Originally Posted by dr zaius

Yea, man! **** smart doctors in the military! They better have big ****ing balls so they can get the hooah stuff done, you tracking?! **** yea, you're tracking. You know what's up.

Despite the way this thread is going, I had to laugh when I read this.

I think this thread has become a disgrace.

Originally Posted by corpsman33

I think this thread has become a disgrace.

It took a bit longer to circle the drain than I thought it would.

blah blah, I was being sarcastic this whole thread has been a disgrace since aqwerty or whatever the hell his name is started bashing DOs.

Originally Posted by a1qwerty55

An interesting question. I think we all get that being a doctor is not all about IQ, and test scores, but is also isn't all about hard work and desire. I run into docs who can't seem to master some basic concepts (not technical skills) even when drilled into their head daily. This is what scares me.

I am actually more scare about doctors who think they know everything and place their interest before their patients. I also feel that if doctors do not achieve certain minimum standard (both technical and non-technical skills) at end of PGY I, II etc..I agreed that they should not progress and complete their residency. Some doctors may require some more remedial training, but it is more desirable to find them and help them during training period than later.

I believe that this requires some intelligence, but we are NOT talking about Biochemistry or Quantum physics level of thinking here. I would like to encourage medical students and residents not to be scare to make mistakes and learn from them as much as possible during your training.

Having finished residency while back...I think that two most significant traits that doctors should have are compassion and diligence. That is my personal view...