Rank Order Lists for 2012

Step 1~220, Step 2~240, Pass all classes, Honors at both externships in EM, Great SLORs, Applied to 20 got 20 interviews, all midwest due to wanting to be close to family, Decided to only go on 7 interviews. When it comes down to it I would be happy at any of my programs but prefer some versus other based mainly on location and some other small factors.

1. MCW- Love Milwaukee as a city, great trauma experience alternating trauma captain, lots of procedures, location of hospital is in a good part of town but still get all the gunshots and stabbings, great faculty and EMS experience, Negatives include ward months in peds and medicine

2. Madison- Another great city, Flight program is one of the best, No ward months, 3+1 program for those who want it, ER is a bit slow for my liking but positives outweigh this

3. Regions- Community type hospital with academic feel, Tons of procedures since not many other residents in hospital, Great trauma experience, Great faculty, Toxicology experience and tox fellowship trained attendings, Only dropped for me because of location

4. Iowa- Solid program, Lighter schedule so more chances to moonlight, sports medicine oppurtunities, Great benefits, Career tracks let you personalize residency a bit, This again dropped only because of location

5. Mayo- Interesting program, Seems like good mix of pathology for a smaller city, Dropped for me because of old ER which is going to be replaced with a new one to open in 3 years (too late for me), also the EMR there seems confusing with them using 4-5 different programs

6. Nebraska- Good program, Very rural focused even though Omaha is a large city, only programs I saw with 12 hours shifts, Trauma seems to be run mainly by surgery

7. Kansas- Seems nice, I didn't really give it much thought based stricly on location but the current residents are very happy and like the flexibility of being a newer program

I have been a long time member of SDN, and followed this sub-forum since beginning med school. It's pretty remarkable I'm at this stage, as I distinctly remember reading this thread each of the last 3 years around this time. I figure it's time for me to make a contribution to the aspiring young med students out there who are doing as I did.

Me: East Coast med school, Pacific Northwest native
Step 1: 210s, Step 2: 250s.
Honors: Medicine, OBGYN, Neurology
High Pass: Everything else.
Home EM: High Pass
Away 1: Honors
Away 2: Pass/Fail grading
Research: No pubs; poster and oral presentations at national SAEM and regional meetings
Volunteer: Lots of various activities.
SLORs: 5 in total (3 from home, one from each away); from what I hear, they are all very good.
30 apps, 20 invites, 14 interviews.
This list is one man's opinion, please read and take with grain of salt.

1. UC-Davis: Loved it. Great program, great residents, great faculty. Meshed with this program in every way imaginable. Sacramento isn't awful (or at least as bad as people make it out to be) and it's relatively close to my hometown, family, and friends. Close to bay area, skiing, napa/sonoma, and plenty of other outdoor activities. The right "fit" for me. 12 hour shifts are a little daunting, but decent amount of days off, decreasing with each successive year.

2. USC: Residents here are pretty amazing. Spent a month in the ED and found the ED to be like nothing I've ever seen in terms of volume and acuity. Autonomy, great grand rounds, and pretty stellar skills walking out of residency here. Fourth year is just more clinic time, nothing extraordinarily unique about it. Would have been #4 if girlfriend hadn't pushed so hard to be closer to her family in SoCal. Expensive, polluted city with loads of traffic. Yet, this translates to good ED experience and lots of trauma. On that note, trauma is done almost exclusively by the EM residents. Concern for burn-out given 12 hour shifts, lots of them, and no slow down as the years go by.

3. Univ. of Arizona: Really enjoyed this program, and was very impressed. Really no red flags here except that the city of Tucson is one in which I don't forsee myself staying for the long term. Reputation and history allows residents to land desirable jobs outside of Arizona and all over the west coast. Happy, laid back people that I felt I gelled with well. Nice, large, new ED. The only place I interviewed where the charting process is purely dictation with little handwriting/typing.

4. Vanderbilt: Awesome program! Great happy residents, Corey Slovis is the man, cool morning lectures every weekday, good camaraderie. Nashville is a cool town and one of few outside of the west that I would strongly consider living. Main concern here is that adult ED visits total nearly 50k, and I would prefer to have higher volume and see more patients. Great emphasis on work/life balance.

5. Denver: Malignant reputation was acknowledge by assistant PD and said it is quickly improving. Work hour restriction rumors are also being addressed and solved. 4th year residents are amazing, and the fourth year here seems the most meaningful of any 4 year program I interviewed with. Focus is on ED management and efficiency. Confident that leaving here would suit me well for any kind of job/fellowship.

6. Georgetown: Dr. Love is the man, residents are very happy, great city, great patient/pathology variance and a focus on resident wellness. A 3+1 program as well to help graduate recover from debt AND focus on an area of specific EM training if they so choose. Newer program that has matured wonderfully and I consider a great program.

7. Utah: Awesome. Residents are coolest around, and they play hard. Lots of SICU time (and a little MICU) Great skiing and other outdoor activities. New IMC ED is enormous and residents run the trauma show there. Primary site (university) has lower volume than I would love, but not horrible. Allegedly the relationship between EM and IM is abysmal.

8. USCF-Fresno: Badass program. Seriously, if this program were anywhere else aside from Fresno, it would be just as competitive as the Highlands, Harbors, and UCLAs. Location was literally the only deterrent, and girlfriend has big say in that. Great path, great volume, cool residents, faculty supportive and easy-going. Would be just fine going here.

9. UCSF-SFGH: Didn't like this quite as much. PD rubbed me the wrong way. Academic track program is narrow and residents aren't allowed to stray from one of 6 available. Bummer. Location is prime for girlfriend, otherwise this would be further down. Moffitt hospital volume seems low. SFGH is old, small. and prone to backlog (according to residents). First class is graduating soon and all have great jobs (so they say).

10. Loma Linda: Was initially higher, location brought it down a bit for me. PD was my favorite of all, peds training seemed best of all programs, and a great guideline for malignant behavior (bad attitude = reprimand/firing; hospital wide policy). No meat/caffeine in cafeteria (bummer), hospital facilities seemed outdated. Most of faculty trained there, seems like a close knit community. Met only 2 residents.

11. Christ Advocate: Should be #4. Girlfriend refuses to live in Chicago/Midwest, for fear of cold weather. No graduates they knew of practicing in Pac NW, nor many in west in general. Lots of midwest natives here, and grads seem to stick around area. Training, residents, faculty all seemed about as good as can be. Lacks a "big name", which really didn't affect my decision, but may play a role in why less grads are seen in the western states. Again, girlfriend main reason it's here and not super high.

12. Maricopa: Coolest and most fun residents of all. A little too county feel for me, and hospital is ancient. Phoenix is concrete playground and weather is a little too extreme for me. Need more green plants in my life aside from cacti. Was early interview so cannot offer much in the way of memory or what I gleaned from visit...

13. UVA: Awesome program. Cool residents, nice ED, great interviewers. Location is not for me, too far from home and 75k population is a little lacking. They take large trauma catchment area, and residents seemingly are very well trained after 3 years.

14: GW: Fine program, nothing extra-ordinary for me here. A great fit for many I'm sure, but at the end of the day, they practice in the area, and few are out in the west. Plus, it's four years and expensive to live here. Good trio of hospitals they rotate with though.

Declined interviews from Cincy, Kern (Bakersfield), Univ. New Mexico, Christiana, Hopkins, Univ. of Chicago.

Me: Top 20 med school by NIH funding
Step 1: 228, Step 2: 243
Academics: Bottom Half of Class (failed an ob/gyn exam in 3rd year and had to retake the exam. Grades shows up as a pass but the fail is mentioned in comments), HP in EM at home program. Also did a Peds EM month / Tox month at home program.
Aways: No Aways.
Research: Non-EM research, no pubs when applying, working on a manuscript now for publication
EC's: went straight from undergrad to med school, had interesting EC's before med school, pretty basic stuff in med school
SLORs: 2 from single rotation, heard on multiple interviews that my letters were very good
100+ apps -- was not sure how competitive I'd be so I applied very broadly. Ended up with 40ish invites, went on 17 interviews
Misc: I applied late. Didn't get app out until early October as I decided I was waiting for a LOR anyway and took step 2 in late september, this ended up being a mistake as a bunch of programs waitlisted me saying they were full.


1. Univ. of Arizona-UMC - +weather, residents happy, more academic than UPHK
2. Univ. of Arizona-UPHK - more county/community than UMC, newish program, not really looking forward to spanish lectures, almost ranked this #1 as I think I'd prefer a more community training over academic but newish program and both programs have overlap 20/80 at other's hospital
3. Univ. of Pittsburgh - cold weather, nice town, residents cool, 2 very different hospitals=good, prehospital focus isn't my thing
4. Cooper (Camden) - inner city program, residents happy, can live in downtown philly
5. New York Beth Israel - 12h shifts=neg, nyc=plus, busy hospital, residents happy
6. JPS (Fort Worth) - new program (only R1s currently), residents happy, liked the location, liked the PD/APD
7. Georgia Health Sciences University (Medical College of Georgia) - liked the curriculum, residents happy, not sure what to make of military connection, warm but humid, Augusta seems pretty but a little sleepy,
8. Jefferson (Philly) - living in downtown philly=plus, lots of hospitals = good except for apparently a painful commute to children's hospital in Delaware, they're proud of their sim lab but only use it 2x a yr per residents, residents sort of happy, got a bit of an odd vibe from a couple ... maybe they just weren't my type
9. East Carolina University (Greenville) - overall seems like you'd get good training here and it's sort of warm but maybe a bit too rural for me, liked the residents but had an odd interview with apd
10. University of Wisconsin (Madison) - family ties to here so this was the only really midwestern place I ended up interviewing at, residents happy, VERY cold, Madison is a nice town though
11. Kern (Bakersfield) - poor hospital (for example, I was told they use a really old version of cprs [the VA EMR] for their emr), get the impression residents get a lot of autonomy and are busy, you are the radiologist overnight = scary for patients but great for training, residents note they work hard with 12h shifts that go long=red flag, 4 yr program = neg, california = beautiful weather but Bakersfield isn't quite what I pictured
12. Drexel - residents happy and also filthiest jokes on the interview trail by far, multiple hospitals but not quite as bad a commute as Jefferson, don't like the rigid schedule of 2 day/2evening/2 overnight/time off and repeat. Honestly I'd much rather do a string of nights (at least 3 or 4). The 2nd night of night shifts in a row was always the worst for me. Spent a lot of time wondering where to rank this program. Originally ranked it a lot higher possibly above Jefferson.
13. Metrohealth (Cleveland) - Residents complain they work hard, great training at a very county program (Metrohealth) and a very academic program (Cleveland Clinic), don't really care for prehospital focus, cleveland = cold but a decent city
14. Case Western (Cleveland) - new program, residents happy, hear from APD/PD/chief resident that second look is not optional (and I couldn't make it whoops), cleveland is cold but otherwise a nice city,
15. West Virginia University - despite being rural has a nice community population, would get good training here, didn't get to go to preinterview dinner so really didn't get to know residents outside of interview day, small town, sorta cold,
16. Penn State - cold, sort of rural (next to Harrisburg), 8h shifts but a ton of them! didn't get a good vibe at preinterview dinner
17. Allegheny General Hospital (Pittsburgh) - Bankruptcy concerns--I don't want to wake up one day to discover the residency has been terminated, otherwise would have ranked this a lot higher, , paper charts, like the city, residents happy

I ranked based on a combination of location (warmer=better, urban>rural), gut feeling about residents/programs, 3 over 4 yr programs generally and not really a fan of 12h shifts (I'd rather do 8/9/10s)

If I could redo early 4th year: Should have done an away out West (didn't get much love), should have got apps in at least a couple weeks earlier and taken Step 2 at the latest in August rather than end of September.

Fairly competitive applicant from average medical school. AOA, step1/2 250/260, 2 EM research projects with 1 publication, HP in my home EM rotation.

1) Cincinnati
2) U of Pitt - Would have been #1 had it been a 4 year program.
3) Brown
4) BMC
5) BIDMC
6) UPenn
7) Ohio State
8) Carolinas
9) Hopkins
10) Temple
11) Duke
12) Wake
13) BWH/MGH
14) Cooper
15) Yale
16) Mt. Sinai
17) NYU

Created this list based primarily upon location, connection with the residents, and academic reputation. Obviously some amazing programs toward the bottom of my list. They ended up there based on location (I.e. could never live in NYC or New Haven and in general wasn't a fan of the south).

sorry, I have a new-found desire to have anonymity again. DO Applicant, east coast academic programs. PM me if you have any interest in my list.

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About me: top of my class at an average medical school. AOA, gold humanism, lots of volunteer work. two publications (not in EM). 240/275. Honors in all third and fourth year rotations. Looking for an academic program with great clinical training.

1. Vanderbilt: Pros: amazing teaching, great opportunities to teach residents to teach; well-planned curriculum with tons of ICU time; good opportunities for research, but a strong focus on clinical excellence; one month orientation; top-notch facilities in a decent city; great EMR; super friendly residents; good COL Neg: harder for the SO to find a job in this area; only one site

2. Stanford: Pros: incredible resources, big names in EM, super friendly faculty and well-planned curriculum; liked the diversity of the 3 training sites; liked the 3+1 mentality and that stanford tends to take their own for fellowship training. residents seem very friendly and happy; amazing place to live; Con: high COL!!!! kind of suburban around palo alto, 12 hour shifts; residents seem to work very very hard

3. Brigham/MGH: Pros: modular didactics that repeats each year; integrated sim; 5.5. months electives; admin and teaching months sounded really interesting; residents were very approachable and welcoming; i like boston; great EMR; Cons: medicine and gen surg months; too researchy? ; less trauma; too tertiary? high COL

4. UCSF: Pros: amazing location and loved the academic/county split; residents are landing amazing jobs and seem like great people to hang out with; it's UCSF! liked the separate gyn and OB months and that there were no floor months; Cons: newish program that is still fighting with other services over airways etc. PD rubbed me the wrong way during the interview day. Questionable resources available for international rotations;

5. Beth Israel Deaconess (boston): Pros: no nights as an intern; 3+1 idea is amazing, especially with harvard resources; 8 hour shifts in the core and 11 in the periphery; red sox games; lots of hospitals to learn different practice mentalities; like Boston; Cons: just didn't have that warm fuzzy feeling here as much as other places; should have probably second looked here; high COL

6. UCLA-olive view: Pros: loved the academic/county split; loved the PD and the residents and really got that homey vibe; good research opportunities with strong clinical training; Cons: high COL; not in love with LA. lots of driving and nasty traffic between sites. 12 hours shifts all four years

7. Michigan: good mix of hospitals; 7% bonus in November; nice physical plant; flight not required; 8 months of ICU; 4 months of elective; month long orientation; integrated peds; nice people, really liked the PD; Cons: winters in michigan, poor job opportunities for the SO, moonlighting not encouraged

8. Indiana: Pros: huge volume; 9 hour shifts, circadian; 1-on-1 attending ICU time; month orientation; 3 electives; lots of ICU time; nice physical plant; this would have been much much higher on my list, but was vetoed by the SO because of jobs prospects; Cons: indianaoplis; really, that's it. i would have loved to come here, but it wasn't in the cards.

9. Cincinnati: Pros: protected rounds on all rotations; integrated peds; great reputation; one month orientation; bad assness upon graduation, landing you any job you want; super nice people, but not a ton of women in the program (3 in intern class) Cons: flights are mandatory and seemed to disrupt shifts significantly; cincinncati isn't the best city to live in. Off-service rotations seemed to be of lower quality as EM is top dog in the hospital

10. Christ: great program, but maybe not as academic as i'm looking for. commute to oak lawn wouldn't be the best either. Probably my favorite group of residents on the trail, though and by far my favorite chicago program.

11. Highland: i don't want straight county, but really liked the people.
12. Pitt
13. Denver
14. Northwestern
15. Boston county
16. UIC
17. Cook county
18. Resurrection

I really liked things about all of these programs, but in the end, those higher on the list were just a better fit for me. (and i got tired of writing). I used these lists a lot when looking where to interview, so i thought i should contribute

eel800 said:

About me: top of my class at an average medical school. AOA, gold humanism, lots of volunteer work. two publications (not in EM). 240/275. Honors in all third and fourth year rotations. Looking for an academic program with great clinical training.

1. Vanderbilt: Pros: amazing teaching, great opportunities to teach residents to teach; well-planned curriculum with tons of ICU time; good opportunities for research, but a strong focus on clinical excellence; one month orientation; top-notch facilities in a decent city; great EMR; super friendly residents; good COL Neg: harder for the SO to find a job in this area; only one site

2. Stanford: Pros: incredible resources, big names in EM, super friendly faculty and well-planned curriculum; liked the diversity of the 3 training sites; liked the 3+1 mentality and that stanford tends to take their own for fellowship training. residents seem very friendly and happy; amazing place to live; Con: high COL!!!! kind of suburban around palo alto, 12 hour shifts; residents seem to work very very hard

3. Brigham/MGH: Pros: modular didactics that repeats each year; integrated sim; 5.5. months electives; admin and teaching months sounded really interesting; residents were very approachable and welcoming; i like boston; great EMR; Cons: medicine and gen surg months; too researchy? ; less trauma; too tertiary? high COL

4. UCSF: Pros: amazing location and loved the academic/county split; residents are landing amazing jobs and seem like great people to hang out with; it's UCSF! liked the separate gyn and OB months and that there were no floor months; Cons: newish program that is still fighting with other services over airways etc. PD rubbed me the wrong way during the interview day. Questionable resources available for international rotations;

5. Beth Israel Deaconess (boston): Pros: no nights as an intern; 3+1 idea is amazing, especially with harvard resources; 8 hour shifts in the core and 11 in the periphery; red sox games; lots of hospitals to learn different practice mentalities; like Boston; Cons: just didn't have that warm fuzzy feeling here as much as other places; should have probably second looked here; high COL

6. UCLA-olive view: Pros: loved the academic/county split; loved the PD and the residents and really got that homey vibe; good research opportunities with strong clinical training; Cons: high COL; not in love with LA. lots of driving and nasty traffic between sites. 12 hours shifts all four years

7. Michigan: good mix of hospitals; 7% bonus in November; nice physical plant; flight not required; 8 months of ICU; 4 months of elective; month long orientation; integrated peds; nice people, really liked the PD; Cons: winters in michigan, poor job opportunities for the SO, moonlighting not encouraged

8. Indiana: Pros: huge volume; 9 hour shifts, circadian; 1-on-1 attending ICU time; month orientation; 3 electives; lots of ICU time; nice physical plant; this would have been much much higher on my list, but was vetoed by the SO because of jobs prospects; Cons: indianaoplis; really, that's it. i would have loved to come here, but it wasn't in the cards.

9. Cincinnati: Pros: protected rounds on all rotations; integrated peds; great reputation; one month orientation; bad assness upon graduation, landing you any job you want; super nice people, but not a ton of women in the program (3 in intern class) Cons: flights are mandatory and seemed to disrupt shifts significantly; cincinncati isn't the best city to live in. Off-service rotations seemed to be of lower quality as EM is top dog in the hospital

10. Christ: great program, but maybe not as academic as i'm looking for. commute to oak lawn wouldn't be the best either. Probably my favorite group of residents on the trail, though and by far my favorite chicago program.

11. Highland: i don't want straight county, but really liked the people.
12. Pitt
13. Denver
14. Northwestern
15. Boston county
16. UIC
17. Cook county
18. Resurrection

I really liked things about all of these programs, but in the end, those higher on the list were just a better fit for me. (and i got tired of writing). I used these lists a lot when looking where to interview, so i thought i should contribute

Click to expand...

You look like the most competitive applicant ever. Why do so many interviews though? At some point aren't you screwing your co-applicants? I recall at some point I was turning interviews down because even though the programs were strong, I knew they wouldn't rank highly on my list? I know, everybody is saying that EM is getting more competitive these days, but 18?! Hope you found what you were looking for. Couples matching?

SepulvedaMD said:

You look like the most competitive applicant ever. Why do so many interviews though? At some point aren't you screwing your co-applicants? I recall at some point I was turning interviews down because even though the programs were strong, I knew they wouldn't rank highly on my list? I know, everybody is saying that EM is getting more competitive these days, but 18?! Hope you found what you were looking for. Couples matching?

Click to expand...

Maybe they didn't know that they wouldn't rank highly on their list.

SepulvedaMD said:

You look like the most competitive applicant ever. Why do so many interviews though? At some point aren't you screwing your co-applicants? I recall at some point I was turning interviews down because even though the programs were strong, I knew they wouldn't rank highly on my list? I know, everybody is saying that EM is getting more competitive these days, but 18?! Hope you found what you were looking for. Couples matching?

Click to expand...

Tough to cancel interviews when every program is 'the best in the country' and produces 'bad-ass clinicians'. Consider this collateral damage of the policy to not tell people which are the strongest programs.

SepulvedaMD said:

You look like the most competitive applicant ever. Why do so many interviews though? At some point aren't you screwing your co-applicants? I recall at some point I was turning interviews down because even though the programs were strong, I knew they wouldn't rank highly on my list? I know, everybody is saying that EM is getting more competitive these days, but 18?! Hope you found what you were looking for. Couples matching?

Click to expand...

The list he or she interviewed at are all great programs, it would be difficult for me to decide where to cancel if I was in their shoes...

turkeyjerky said:

Tough to cancel interviews when every program is 'the best in the country' and produces 'bad-ass clinicians'. Consider this collateral damage of the policy to not tell people which are the strongest programs.

Click to expand...

Nothing against eel, but good gracious. The above statement is exactly why you sit down with a mentor/PD/advisor before/during interview season. You need to be able to sort out what you want before interviewing. I knew I didn't want to live in Florida, so I didnt apply... Let alone, I couldnt even of afforded to go on 18 interviews. Heck, I had trouble paying to go on 12.

stooges287 said:

Maybe they didn't know that they wouldn't rank highly on their list.

Click to expand...

That's fair to a point, but one has to have some semblance of hierarchy when applying and accepting interviews. At all times you have to be looking at the big picture of where you really want to be. Maybe they thought they could be happy at all 18 places, maybe they realized not so much after 16. In the end it's your prerogative to interview at how ever many programs you choose, but the numbers say 10 is the magic number. So once you go beyond that, you are doing so for specific reasons. I did 13, because I think I'm an above average applicant nationally, but perhaps not so for the west coast. Programs have to make choices about who they will and won't interview, we have to do the same. Because, when we choose to interview, we are removing a spot from the pool. Eel may have had his reasons. Hell, I don't know he/she could have 5 DUIs and an weapons charge pending. Don't know, doesn't matter now.

turkeyjerky said:

Tough to cancel interviews when every program is 'the best in the country' and produces 'bad-ass clinicians'. Consider this collateral damage of the policy to not tell people which are the strongest programs.

Click to expand...

I know that's the "word on the street". I don't know if it's actually true, but if it is it only further reinforces the idea that one is picking the people and location more than program, right? How many interviews did you go on before you started forming a list?

ThymeLess said:

The list he or she interviewed at are all great programs, it would be difficult for me to decide where to cancel if I was in their shoes...

Click to expand...

Ditto, but there has to be some sort of deciding factor

cofcemt said:

Nothing against eel, but good gracious. The above statement is exactly why you sit down with a mentor/PD/advisor before/during interview season. You need to be able to sort out what you want before interviewing. I knew I didn't want to live in Florida, so I didnt apply... Let alone, I couldnt even of afforded to go on 18 interviews. Heck, I had trouble paying to go on 12.

Click to expand...

Well said.

Since I've clearly opened my big mouth on the subject. Here is my list

Average med school, 233/247, few clinical honors, em research but no pub, pass/fail em rotations. Want to be on a coast in a large city. BTW, I could speak at length about my top 5 or 6 but in interest of brevity

1.UCLA/OV: pros- love the ppl and the two sites, flexibility of curriculum, cons- possibly the worst traffic in la exists between the two sites
1a/2 LAC/USC: pros- awesome path and ppl, IMO the "sexiest" program out there, cons- only one site
3 Loma Linda: pros- as stated above the PD is awesome, good peds and mult sites. Cons- loma linda area
4 highland: pros- solid county exp, good funding for county fac, strong em dept in hosp cons- as top dog in hosp one may not learn much from residents off-service, highland pride kinda intense
5 unlv: really liked the ppl and strength of em within hosp, and PD, cons- still kinda new
6. Maricopa: pros- great residents, cool leadership, and good path, cons- not into phx
7 UW: pros- strong vision by PD, opportunity to help shape young program, cons- newness
8.Cook County: Outstanding PD, good path, cons- chicago is cold, weak pads exp
9. AB/BI- PD has good vision for program, cool residents, 3 yrs, cons- COL in NYC
10 Jacobi- Cool PD and diverse residents, great volume at both sites, Cons- 4 yrs, on wrong coast
11. GW: pros- Great variety of training sites, cons- they seemed to favor number of patients seen over quality of care
12. UCSF/SFGH: Liked the multi sites, PD very blunt and candid, cons- PD candid and blunt with a twinge of stubbornness, EM gets airway only on the weekends!?
13 Kern: Pros- pretty busy county hops in california, Cons- bakersfield is not very california

Here goes my anonymity, but many of the places I interviewed aren't talked about very frequently.

I'm married with a kid; luckily my wife will go anywhere, but family ties/location and commute to work played a big part in my list. Had no interest in big cities for the most part (COL way too high).

Step 1 <200, Step 2 230's. HP in EM rotations, 2/6 honors 3rd yr, EMS experience before med school, very good letters, good amount of research, clinical leadership roles. Step 1 really limited where I got offers from, but knew that going in.

1. Mayo - (+)Near family, money is no object, international elective options, nicest sim lab I have ever seen, off service rotations are great, really got along with residents and attendings, place people all over the country, def not the step child of mayo like some people think
(-)Cold winters, ED is undergoing expansion (but they did say it wouldn't impact current space)
2. Geisinger - (+)Nicest and happiest residents on trail, mtn biking trails behind hospital/hiking nearby, small town vibe, no floor months at all, helicopter (and boy do they love it), one of the attendings won the ACEP teaching award
(-)Tiny town (minus for many, we liked it), would have to drive 20-30min to stores like Best Buy, etc.
3. York - (+)PD really cares about resident wellness, one of the oldest programs and have alumni everywhere, CHOP Peds ED (paid housing in Philly) and Tox months, highest pay I came across ($55k)
(-)York isn't a very happening place, COL higher than expected
4. VT/Carilion - (+)15min from AT/mtns, young active attendings, 1st year always 1:1 w/ attending, wife & I liked Roanoke, lots of research money being brought in, great CC experience
(-)Odd vibe from a couple of residents, new program
5. Southern Ill - (+)2 hospital system, family in Springfield, minimal floor months, ED is non-resident dependent-so you mostly see cases to learn from, 120k volume with 6/residents per class with no future increase in sight which equals highest volume to resident ration I found
(-)New program, Springfield itself, not near mtns/hiking
6. Synergy - (+)2 hospital system, low # of other residency programs so lots of 1:1 attending teaching, St Mary's has very high acuity (~30% ICU admit rate)
(-)Saginaw (sort of segregated town, poor on one side of the river and wealthier on the other)
7. MUSC - Home program, if I hadn't lived in Charleston for the last 10 yrs, would be much higher. Probably one of the nicest cities in the US to live. Beach, sunny, best food in south...
(+)Super motivated/active attendings, Jauch (big name in neuro/stroke in EM) is new chair, very nice sim lab with great utilization, nicest people to work with, smaller program (6/yr)
(-)Very high COL comparatively, Chest pain center/Cath lab in different building as main ED, facilities a bit older, not big users of u/s, no fellowships as of yet
8. Allegheny - (+)Pittsburgh's nice, can live 15 min from hospital and be able to get to rural PA in 30, great biking, everyone in the program very nice, new buy-out of hospital is creating nice cash influx, lots of sports and event med opportunities, u/s director used to be at Pitt and is excellent/very passionate
(-)Steelers fans (Packers fan here), cold, odd interview day
9. Mississippi - Rotated here, wife's from the area
(+)Good fellowship opportunities, residents very down to earth, "mini-fellowships" to help carve your own niche, best moonlighting opportunities I've seen ($175/hr+), a lot of elective time, low COL
(-) 4yrs, Jackson
10. Penn State - (+)Hershey seems like a nice town, very nice sim lab, got had great interviews with faculty, probably prettiest ED I went to, great ancillary staff
(-)Odd experience at pre-interview dinner, new PD appeared motivated but has a list a mile long of small changes and very scatter-brained (just worried how this may impact training?); however the PD is very interested in making the program the best it can be
11. Baton Rouge - (+)Residents got along well and social, Baton Rouge wasn't as bad as I expected and has quite a bit of southern charm/fun local activities, NOLA 1hr away
(-)4 hospital system is a bit too much driving, the "Earl" is still the main site (maybe changing, but haven't broken ground on new facilities)
12. Sinai Grace - Agree with a previous poster, would be well trained and graduate with a bunch of "holy ****" stories.
(+)Really got along with the residents, ED completely run traumas start to finish (most trauma in Detroit), new u/s attending, good mix of patients
(-) Got a weird vibe from my interviewers, older ED with 2 beds per curtain bed, pressed for space

Did not interview at Louisville. Anyone that sends out more offers than they have spots to interview, I'm not interested in anyways. If I end up matching I will be happy and I feel every place I interviewed would afford me good training.

cofcemt said:

Nothing against eel, but good gracious. The above statement is exactly why you sit down with a mentor/PD/advisor before/during interview season. You need to be able to sort out what you want before interviewing. I knew I didn't want to live in Florida, so I didnt apply... Let alone, I couldnt even of afforded to go on 18 interviews. Heck, I had trouble paying to go on 12.

Click to expand...

Two points:

First, not all advisers or PDs are completely forthright about this stuff. I think it's more common for people to have the same tight-lipped attitude is real life as people tend to on this site. (chief difference is nobody's mentioned In-N-Out in real life). I talked to several people and the two common responses were "I don't really know too much about programs, I just applied based on location" or "You'll get great training anywhere, just apply based on location or if they have other stuff you're interested in, ie EMS". Residents I talked to were more forthright about places they interviewed at and didn't like, but their advice was tempered by their relative inexperience and by the limited number of interviews they'd go on.

Second, if you actually look at eel's list, the programs are pretty geographically clustered and it'd be easy to do all those on 4 or 5 trips. In my opinion, the bigger problem w/ interviews is people holding onto invites for a long time after they know that they won't be interviewing there. I talked to people in mid January who still hadn't canceled some that they knew they weren't going to keep. That's assholism to the extreme.

SepulvedaMD said:

That's fair to a point, but one has to have some semblance of hierarchy when applying and accepting interviews. At all times you have to be looking at the big picture of where you really want to be. Maybe they thought they could be happy at all 18 places, maybe they realized not so much after 16. In the end it's your prerogative to interview at how ever many programs you choose, but the numbers say 10 is the magic number. So once you go beyond that, you are doing so for specific reasons. I did 13, because I think I'm an above average applicant nationally, but perhaps not so for the west coast. Programs have to make choices about who they will and won't interview, we have to do the same. Because, when we choose to interview, we are removing a spot from the pool. Eel may have had his reasons. Hell, I don't know he/she could have 5 DUIs and an weapons charge pending. Don't know, doesn't matter now.


I know that's the "word on the street". I don't know if it's actually true, but if it is it only further reinforces the idea that one is picking the people and location more than program, right? How many interviews did you go on before you started forming a list?

Click to expand...

I think it's entirely untrue. The consequence of that, however, is that you often need to visit a program to actually get a feel for how good the training is (even then it can be hard as hell). If the only knowledge of a program you have about it prior to interviewing is based on a glowing review on SDN and the program's fancy website, then how are you supposed to know that you wouldn't like it? Well you could go based just off of location (prolly what most do), but if you don't really buy the "equivalent training" thing (and most strong applicants don't), then how do you make your decision?

turkeyjerky said:

not all advisers or PDs are completely forthright about this stuff.

Click to expand...

I guess you're right, probably dependent on each institution. I was just lucky that the attendings/my advisor were pretty forthcoming.

turkeyjerky said:

Second, if you actually look at eel's list, the programs are pretty geographically clustered and it'd be easy to do all those on 4 or 5 trips.

Click to expand...

True, but I couldn't ever get that much time off (my school is ridiculous about how little time off we get...no more than 2 days per month/rotation) and I could never get my interviews to line up timing wise.

Wow. I can't believe my post got such a reaction. People are right.....i didn't know what i wanted before i started interviewing. i actually applied to 32 programs because of that fact (and my advising came a bit late in the game as i almost applied to a different specialty). My advisers didn't have a lot of input into where i applied. All i kept hearing was "they're all great programs" which really wasn't that helpful. Many of my advisers went to my home program for residency, so just didn't have a lot of input into where else i applied. I went on a few interviews, found out more about what i wanted, and promptly cancelled a bunch of interviews that didn't fit. the interviews i went on intially ended up more towards the bottom of my list, but were still great programs. i would much rather go to any of those programs than not match, thus i ranked every one. it would be pretty stupid to have to scramble because i thought i was so competitive, i didn't have to rank everywhere, wouldn't it? I don't believe that my ranking 18 programs has any bearing on how other people match. the bigger problem is people holding interviews until the last minute in my opinion.

for students applying next year, i would advise you to seek help with your list early. if you don't get the kind of help you want, keep asking other people until you find better answers. it's hard to interview so many places and even harder to decide where to rank in the end.

eel800 said:

4. UCSF: Pros: amazing location and loved the academic/county split; residents are landing amazing jobs and seem like great people to hang out with; it's UCSF! liked the separate gyn and OB months and that there were no floor months; Cons: newish program that is still fighting with other services over airways etc. PD rubbed me the wrong way during the interview day. Questionable resources available for international rotations;

Click to expand...

apples2 said:

11. UCSF- The only program I really didn't like. SF is awesome, but WHOA expensive and especially difficult on a resident salary. The PD was quite rude, I thought, and a lot of the faculty were off-putting. Just didn't get a good feel here.

Click to expand...

turkeyjerky said:

16. UCSF--I got a really bad vibe from this place, huge disappointment. The hospitals are dominated by others services and the residents seemed beaten down. Off service rotations seemed pretty low yield, like having to stay in one room during Gas, one month each of OB and Gyn, no ICU months until 3rd year. Also, they only get the trauma airway during weekends which is a huge red flag for me. Finally, the PD seemed bat**** crazy.

Click to expand...

CominUpMilhouse said:

9. UCSF-SFGH: Didn't like this quite as much. PD rubbed me the wrong way.

Click to expand...

Glad to see I wasn't the only one!

SDEM2012 said:

Glad to see I wasn't the only one!

Click to expand...

so sad. what exactly did the PD do?

----------

i matched many moons ago but find these threads kinda amusing... and i totally agree w/ the women vs men comment....

Out of curiosity, why are people jumping all over Eel? There's a few other people on here who did very similar things, and in the end, the only spot he took was from the last person on each of the respective program's list of people to interview.

Wild guess here, but Vanderbilt probably isn't going fifty plus deep to fill their program

Heck, at the end of the day he (or she for that matter) probably did that person a favor.

member11223344 said:

I think the PD is kind of intense--I say this as a person who loved the program. She certainly comes across as kind of brusque in a lot of interactions. I'm not particularly bothered by this--somehow I think when women are confident, and a little pushy, they get pushed into the "bat-**** crazy" category. When men are confident and pushy, they're called surgeons. You might note how many times OB-GYN attendings were called "crazy" versus Gen Surg--at least a 5:1 ratio, on my rotations. I guess I just think that you'd have to be pretty intense and maybe at times inflexible to create a program at a place like UCSF, which has got a lot of strong residencies ceding ground for your program to exist. That said, I'm sure her personality is not for everybody. I just resist the gendered descriptions of intense physicians--be egalitarian! Call EVERYONE an a-hole, if that's what you mean!

Click to expand...

That's one way to put it. Her entire attitude seemed very strange for an interview day where you're trying to impress and recruit applicants. She struck me as rather arrogant during the initial presentation, and coupled this with an antagonistic and dismissive response to most questions that were asked. Add that to the bizarre thing where she brought everyone into a small room after the tour and had each person tell a "story that defined yourself" to the group, and it made me think that this is not a person I want to work under for the next 4 years.

I heard it frequently from current residents that she's the exact type of personality needed to build a program at a place like UCSF, but I'm not really sure that's the case. Nowhere else did I interview where any of the faculty, much less the PD or chair, had that type of personality (at least presented to applicants). Maybe UCSF is a malignant institution on the whole and you need that kind of attitude, but is that really a place you want to be? In addition you have the fact that she wasn't actually able to get some really important things for the program, ie trauma airways.

member11223344 said:

I think the PD is kind of intense--I say this as a person who loved the program. She certainly comes across as kind of brusque in a lot of interactions. I'm not particularly bothered by this--somehow I think when women are confident, and a little pushy, they get pushed into the "bat-**** crazy" category. When men are confident and pushy, they're called surgeons. You might note how many times OB-GYN attendings were called "crazy" versus Gen Surg--at least a 5:1 ratio, on my rotations. I guess I just think that you'd have to be pretty intense and maybe at times inflexible to create a program at a place like UCSF, which has got a lot of strong residencies ceding ground for your program to exist. That said, I'm sure her personality is not for everybody. I just resist the gendered descriptions of intense physicians--be egalitarian! Call EVERYONE an a-hole, if that's what you mean!

Click to expand...

I agree, and actually found her less intense than I expected based on what I had heard beforehand. The deal breaker for me was the resident murmurings while I was there that they don't feel she has their back in certain situations. I think she's done a great job establishing the program so far, but maybe it's time to bring in a more fuzzy PD. She would probs make a great chair.

Just wanted to clarify a few things. I work for the UCSF residency and am not the PD. We have ~55 attendings in the program. My colleagues are committed to teaching, mentoring, and supporting the residents. While it is a new-ish program, in our staff meetings we constantly are discussing ways to make the program better, and implementing new changes all the time. Resident feedback is heavily considered and changes are made accordingly.

EM does virtually all the airways at the tertiary hospital, all of the medical airways at the county hospital, and trauma airways are shared with anesthesia. We're working to take over all the trauma airways, but change happens little by little.

As for support, residents who want to do global health will likely be able to. I can think of at least one resident who spent time abroad as a 3rd year, and 2 months abroad as a 4th year. If you want to do academic projects, mentorship will be there, usually within our faculty, or we'll help you find it in another specialty within the medical school. You'll find a good atmosphere for interdisciplinary academic collaboration.

As for our graduates, they've gotten jobs they wanted in critical care fellowship, US fellowship, academic assistant PD position, research fellowship, Bay Area and Seattle community EM (tight markets), and locums jobs. (This is public knowledge on the residency website).

There are so many excellent EM residencies, and each of them have particular flavors to offer. So what is the UCSF residency? It's a relatively new 4 year program in the Bay Area that is a mix of academic (tertiary) and county experience.

As I look back on my residency and consider what was important, it sort of comes down to:

Will you get good training?
Will you be able to do the projects and have the experiences you want to?
Will you find supportive and skilled mentors?
Will you be able to get the type of position you want after residency?

My colleagues and I are working very hard to make the program as good as it can be.




Originally Posted by eel800
4. UCSF: Pros: amazing location and loved the academic/county split; residents are landing amazing jobs and seem like great people to hang out with; it's UCSF! liked the separate gyn and OB months and that there were no floor months; Cons: newish program that is still fighting with other services over airways etc. PD rubbed me the wrong way during the interview day. Questionable resources available for international rotations;
Quote:
Originally Posted by apples2
11. UCSF- The only program I really didn't like. SF is awesome, but WHOA expensive and especially difficult on a resident salary. The PD was quite rude, I thought, and a lot of the faculty were off-putting. Just didn't get a good feel here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turkeyjerky
16. UCSF--I got a really bad vibe from this place, huge disappointment. The hospitals are dominated by others services and the residents seemed beaten down. Off service rotations seemed pretty low yield, like having to stay in one room during Gas, one month each of OB and Gyn, no ICU months until 3rd year. Also, they only get the trauma airway during weekends which is a huge red flag for me. Finally, the PD seemed bat**** crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CominUpMilhouse

9. UCSF-SFGH: Didn't like this quite as much. PD rubbed me the wrong way.

RNR said:

Just wanted to clarify a few things. I work for the UCSF residency and am not the PD. We have ~55 attendings in the program. My colleagues are committed to teaching, mentoring, and supporting the residents. While it is a new-ish program, in our staff meetings we constantly are discussing ways to make the program better, and implementing new changes all the time. Resident feedback is taken into great consideration and changes are made accordingly.

EM does virtually all the airways at the tertiary hospital, all of the medical airways at the county hospital, and trauma airways are shared with anesthesia. We're working to take over all the trauma airways, but change happens little by little.

As for support, residents who want to do global health will likely be able to. I can think of at least one resident who spent time abroad as a 3rd year, and 2 months abroad as a 4th year. If you want to do academic projects, mentorship will be there, usually within our faculty, or in another specialty in the school.

As for our graduates, they've gotten jobs they wanted in critical care fellowship, US fellowship, academic assistant PD position, research fellowship, Bay Area and Seattle community EM (tight market), and locums jobs. (This is public knowledge on the residency website).

There are so many excellent EM residencies, and each of them have particular flavors to offer. So what is the UCSF residency? It's a relatively new 4 year program in the Bay Area that is a mix of academic (tertiary) and county experience.

As I look back on my residency and consider what was important, it sort of comes down to:

Will you get good training?
Will you be able to do the projects and have the experiences you want to?
Will you find supportive and skilled mentors?
Will you be able to get the type of position you want after residency?

My colleagues and I are working very hard to make the program as good as it can be.




Originally Posted by eel800
4. UCSF: Pros: amazing location and loved the academic/county split; residents are landing amazing jobs and seem like great people to hang out with; it's UCSF! liked the separate gyn and OB months and that there were no floor months; Cons: newish program that is still fighting with other services over airways etc. PD rubbed me the wrong way during the interview day. Questionable resources available for international rotations;
Quote:
Originally Posted by apples2
11. UCSF- The only program I really didn't like. SF is awesome, but WHOA expensive and especially difficult on a resident salary. The PD was quite rude, I thought, and a lot of the faculty were off-putting. Just didn't get a good feel here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turkeyjerky
16. UCSF--I got a really bad vibe from this place, huge disappointment. The hospitals are dominated by others services and the residents seemed beaten down. Off service rotations seemed pretty low yield, like having to stay in one room during Gas, one month each of OB and Gyn, no ICU months until 3rd year. Also, they only get the trauma airway during weekends which is a huge red flag for me. Finally, the PD seemed bat**** crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CominUpMilhouse

9. UCSF-SFGH: Didn't like this quite as much. PD rubbed me the wrong way.

Click to expand...

What does this have to do with the PD being a jerk?

SepulvedaMD said:

That's fair to a point, but one has to have some semblance of hierarchy when applying and accepting interviews. At all times you have to be looking at the big picture of where you really want to be. Maybe they thought they could be happy at all 18 places, maybe they realized not so much after 16. In the end it's your prerogative to interview at how ever many programs you choose, but the numbers say 10 is the magic number. So once you go beyond that, you are doing so for specific reasons. I did 13, because I think I'm an above average applicant nationally, but perhaps not so for the west coast. Programs have to make choices about who they will and won't interview, we have to do the same. Because, when we choose to interview, we are removing a spot from the pool. Eel may have had his reasons. Hell, I don't know he/she could have 5 DUIs and an weapons charge pending. Don't know, doesn't matter now.




I know that's the "word on the street". I don't know if it's actually true, but if it is it only further reinforces the idea that one is picking the people and location more than program, right? How many interviews did you go on before you started forming a list?




Ditto, but there has to be some sort of deciding factor



Well said.

Since I've clearly opened my big mouth on the subject. Here is my list

Average med school, 233/247, few clinical honors, em research but no pub, pass/fail em rotations. Want to be on a coast in a large city. BTW, I could speak at length about my top 5 or 6 but in interest of brevity

1.UCLA/OV: pros- love the ppl and the two sites, flexibility of curriculum, cons- possibly the worst traffic in la exists between the two sites
1a/2 LAC/USC: pros- awesome path and ppl, IMO the "sexiest" program out there, cons- only one site
3 Loma Linda: pros- as stated above the PD is awesome, good peds and mult sites. Cons- loma linda area
4 highland: pros- solid county exp, good funding for county fac, strong em dept in hosp cons- as top dog in hosp one may not learn much from residents off-service, highland pride kinda intense
5 unlv: really liked the ppl and strength of em within hosp, and PD, cons- still kinda new
6. Maricopa: pros- great residents, cool leadership, and good path, cons- not into phx
7 UW: pros- strong vision by PD, opportunity to help shape young program, cons- newness
8.Cook County: Outstanding PD, good path, cons- chicago is cold, weak pads exp
9. AB/BI- PD has good vision for program, cool residents, 3 yrs, cons- COL in NYC
10 Jacobi- Cool PD and diverse residents, great volume at both sites, Cons- 4 yrs, on wrong coast
11. GW: pros- Great variety of training sites, cons- they seemed to favor number of patients seen over quality of care
12. UCSF/SFGH: Liked the multi sites, PD very blunt and candid, cons- PD candid and blunt with a twinge of stubbornness, EM gets airway only on the weekends!?
13 Kern: Pros- pretty busy county hops in california, Cons- bakersfield is not very california

Click to expand...

I understand the "magic number" is 10 to match...but what's the number to find the right program that would be the best fit for you? Most people aren't just looking to match, but to find a place that really fits well with you and I don't think there is a magic number for that.

Step 1/2 250s, 3/6 3rd year honors, honors in all 4th year rotations (including EM home and away), top quartile of class, no AOA, 1 bench research pub, 1 EM case report pub, 2 really good slors

1. LAC+USC: (+) rotated here and meshed well, hard to top the clinical experience, high level of responsibility, autonomy, code pager, true graded responsibility, county, trauma, jail pop, underserved pop, nationally recognized didactics and grand rounds, beach, strong senior residents, great job placement, flight and dive med, moonlighting starting pgy3, staying true to the mission (-) COL, traffic
2. Highland: (+) loved the residents and faculty despite the odd MMIs, county, trauma, pt pop, autonomy, great teaching, great job placement, GI rounds, highest salary in cali, tahoe ski cabin! (-) off service training
3. Harbor UCLA: (+) IMO best 3 year in cali, county, trauma, pt pop, great job placement, beach (-) COL, traffic
4. UC Davis: (+) IMO 2nd best 3 year in cali, get everything you need at davis + community hospital, huge catchment, mountains (-) sac
5. Denver: (+) nice county/academic blend, strong off service training (esp crit care), strong senior residents, circadian, mountains (-) lots of surg, lots of 8 h shifts that commonly become 9 or 10 h shifts
6. BMC: (+) county, trauma, jail pop, liked the residents, really liked the PD, love the mission (not just lip service) (-) COL
7. LSU NO: (+) great academic/county mix, loads of trauma (I believe they boast highest % of penetrating), NOLA, mission (-) not the SOs favorite city
8. UNM: (+) 3 years, single hospital, huge catchment, high acuity, lots of trauma and ICU, mountains, COL (-) Albuquerque
9. NYU: (+) amazing clinical experience, bellevue, manhattan (-) COL
10. BIDMC: (+) 3+1 is great, boston (-) not much trauma, seems to have least acuity of the boston programs, COL
11. Loma Linda: (+) 3 years, solid academic and county experience, wilderness opportunities (-) location, no caffeine or meat in cafeteria (you can bring these in to work though)
12. Northwestern: (+) loved the PD and the focus on job placement (-) Chicago is cold, COL, too academic
13. UCSD: (+) multiple sites that provide great mix of academic/county/community/rural, flight and dive med, beach (-) COL, don’t like the way they do trauma
14. UCLA Olive View: (+) very intelligent residents and faculty (lots of IM/EM folks), good mix of academic/county (-) COL, scribes, traffic between the 2 sites is absolutely horrid, not much trauma, too academic
15. U of Washington: (+) seattle, mountains, very strong training sites (IMO one of the best programs on paper), lots of ICU (-) new, no alumni, still a division of surgery

Declined interviews: UCSF, UC Irvine, Stanford, Utah, St. Luke’s Roosevelt, Beth Israel Med Center (NY), New York Presbyterian, Temple, U of Arizona, Maricopa, U of Chicago, Cook, Pitt, Vandy

Rejected: OHSU, BWH/MGH

I ranked 15, but only had to do 12 interviews (the other 3 were my home institution and places where I did away rotations).

I applied to too many programs and ended up cancelling a lot of them. There are a lot of good programs that I “declined”, simply because I didn’t have enough money/energy. I really wish I had checked out Vandy, Pitt, and U of A. Would be extremely happy matching 1-9, very happy with 10-13, and happy with 14-15. I ranked everywhere I interviewed.

turkeyjerky said:

I think it's entirely untrue. The consequence of that, however, is that you often need to visit a program to actually get a feel for how good the training is (even then it can be hard as hell). If the only knowledge of a program you have about it prior to interviewing is based on a glowing review on SDN and the program's fancy website, then how are you supposed to know that you wouldn't like it? Well you could go based just off of location (prolly what most do), but if you don't really buy the "equivalent training" thing (and most strong applicants don't), then how do you make your decision?

Click to expand...

I agree that one can never really know 'everything' about program from the interview day. Not even a rotation will give you everything. I also agree that not 'every' program offers 'great' training. But something that was mentioned on the trail has stuck with me and I find it to be pretty accurate. It's the two Gs, geography and gestalt. Looking back, that's how most of us made up our minds of where to apply to and rank. Residency isn't like med school where you simply go to the 'best' place you get in, its more about the place, the people, etc.

sandler743 said:

I understand the "magic number" is 10 to match...but what's the number to find the right program that would be the best fit for you? Most people aren't just looking to match, but to find a place that really fits well with you and I don't think there is a magic number for that.

Click to expand...

True, one just hopes that it doesn't take 18 interviews to find it. Eel had good reasons, and reading his post you have to look at his list like someone who did two specialties since his priorities changed in the process.

Any non-stellar applicants care to chime in? It's like I entered the bloody derm forum with everyone and there mom having step 1/2 in the 250s, multiple pubs, AOA, etc etc etc. I know people like to toot their own horn and quite frankly can't blame them all that much, but some variety would be a good thing I think.

THere are plenty of non-250 applicants, just read the rest of the thread. DO, MD, carib, etc, this thread has a little of everything. Also, don't forget you're on SDN, the home of many neurotic med students with ridiculous numbers who think they are sub-par.

Step 1 (230+) Step 2 (250+) 4/7 Honors in 3rd year clerkship
Top 1/3 of class at an avg med school, no AOA
Did 3 aways (2 honors, one pass from a pass/fail rotation), got 2 excellent SLORs, 1 lukewarm SLOR, 1 strong LOR from IM attending
Good amount of volunteering including 1 leadership position and some quirky ECs (talked about my ECs a lot during interviews)
One research project presentation at regional conference but no publication
Applied to 30 programs, received 22 invites, went to 15. Really wanted to stay close to so cal/westcoast. Location played the biggest factor. Want to be at a 3 yr program with strong peds and international experience.

1. UC Irvine (+) No floor months, fun residents, strong faculty, close to beach, ranked it #1 mostly due to location (-) 12 hr shifts, small class, lower volume compared to other Cali programs
2. Loma Linda (+) high volume, high acuity, good balance of county and academic feel, strong peds and international, lower cost of living while still in So Cal, awesome PD, meshed well with residents and faculty (-) in San Bernardino, Riverside County still using paper charts, 30 min drive between two sites
3. Stanford (+) well-funded, strong faculty, well rounded curriculum, good off-service rotations, strong peds and international experience, fun residents (-) COL in Palo Alto, traffic getting out of Palo Alto during certain hours causes one to become suicidal .
4. UCSF-SFGH (+) Really liked SFGH, good county/academic split, awesome city, strong off-service rotations, good amt of resources, enjoyed my interview day there, liked the "pathways" they offer, had no problem with the PD (-) high COL, seem to get less procedures than other programs, 4 yrs.
5. Highland (+) Awesome residents, strong reputation, high volume, high acuity, strong in US, liked their emphasis on resident well-being, good salary, strong faculty. (-) Stay at one site, weaker off-service rotations, might be too "county" for me, 4 yrs, MMIs were somewhat uncomfortable.
6. Maricopa (+) Favorite group of residents, strong and well balanced curriculum, would rank higher if not in AZ, had a great interview day. (-) In PHX
7. UA/UPHK (+) Community/underserved emphasis, medical spanish in curriculum, pretty much identical to UA program other than the fact that you spend more time at the other hospital (-) In AZ, small class (although you do get a lot of interactions with residents from the other UA EM program)
8. UNLV (+) meshed well with residents, liked the PD, curriculum seems strong , in Vegas (-) in Vegas, still pretty new program so ??reputation
9. UC Davis (+) strong curriculum, liked the faculty, well balanced academic/county/community experience (-) weak in international exp, did not like sac-town that much
10. University of Wash (+) big name, great PD, has great potential (-) new program
11. Advocate Christ (+) Best Chicago program IMO (-) cold winters, location
12. Resurrection (+) rotated here, loved the people (-) too community, cold winters, location
13. UNM (+) High acuity, strong curriculum, liked the PD (-) in NM
14. UT-Houston (+) trauma (-) did not mesh with chief resident, location
15. Kern County (+) strong curriculum, high volume, high acuity (-) in Bakersfield, low salary, 4 yrs.


I consider myself a competitive applicant yet got no love from the 3 LA programs. I was somewhat disappointed. I think it's because off the lukewarm SLOR from one of the LA programs I rotated at&#8230;combined with the fact that the SLOR came in way late during the process (a lot of interviewers asked me about it) probably raised a red flag for them&#8230;My advice to future applicants: GET YOUR SLORs IN EARLY. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ONE FROM EACH OF YOUR EM ROTATIONS!

I wanted to make a brief statement on behalf of the UCSF PD. This is unsolicited and completely volitional on my part. She was my PD when I was a resident (before UCSF). Some of that which has been said I can definitely appreciate. However, there is one unassailable fact: she WILL make you into a superior EM physician. Not passable, not good enough, not "not bad", but excellent. I was an f'up resident, and she made me toe the line. The brusque and the driven, yes, I see that. However, her ways work. Quite honestly, I don't know when she'll become a department chair, but I feel it will be sooner than later (and not an "if", but "when").

(And she has no effect on my life or profession beyond historical.)

sylvanthus said:

Any non-stellar applicants care to chime in? It's like I entered the bloody derm forum with everyone and there mom having step 1/2 in the 250s, multiple pubs, AOA, etc etc etc. I know people like to toot their own horn and quite frankly can't blame them all that much, but some variety would be a good thing I think.

Click to expand...

Below Average Step 1, Above Average Step 2, Honors 1/6 core 3rd year rotations, 2 SLORs, 2 High pass grades in EM rotations, 1 research publication in EM, 1 case report not published. I considered myself to be a less competitive applicant and received some terrible advice to apply to way too many programs. Looking for 3 year programs

ROL

1 St Lukes-Roosevelt-NY - Really cool group of residents, tight knit, like to have fun. Great location and housing. Great interhospital diversity. Really nice PD and faculty. Really strong program graduating residents all over the country at some really competitive locations.
2 Einstein/Beth Israel Med Ctr-NY - Great location and a good bunch of residents. Solid program. Somewhat of a negative with regards to travel to other hospital sites. Trauma experience is extensive and perhaps a little too much so. Great ancillary staff, esp for NYC. This was ultimately a gut decision based on location.
3 U Texas Southwestern Med Sch-Dallas - I felt this was the strongest program I interviewed at. Ultimately, it dropped to 3 because of location. Awesome residents, amazing curriculum, and crazy clinical experience. Midway through your 2nd year, residents seemed prepared to be attendings, many already signing contracts to work in Dallas, awesome market for docs. Put this program in the Northeast and it's #1 without a doubt. 2 months in New Zealand, expenses paid. Mavericks and Stars games.
4 UPMC Medical Education-PA - This was another gut decision. Initially ranked a bit lower, it started to climb up my list probably in part because of its reputation. Cool EMS experience, cheap cost of living, event medicine, terrible weather.
5 Drexel Univ COM/Hahnemann Univ Hosp-PA - My first interview that left a lasting impression. The shifts seem difficult to adjust to (2 morning, 2 afternoons, 2 nights, 2 days off). Like the idea of the ED run ICU.
6 NY Methodist Hospital-NY - got a good vibe from the residents I met briefly. Location is great, salary is tops. Seems like the residents end up staying late after shifts which are already quite long.
7 Baystate Med Ctr-MA - Extremely nice PD who genuinely cares about his residents. Springfield just didn't do it for me. Great program otherwise and I would definitely be happy here.
8 U Massachusetts Med School - Again, not a great location but a great program with a ton of resources. Initially very high on my list because of great flight program but dropped a bit when I decided I didn't really want to fly too much.
9 Cooper University Hospital-NJ - Really more like a Philly program. Good training. Nothing too special.
10 Eastern VA Med School-VA - Short shifts = nice , 23 shifts/28 days = not so nice. Really like Virginia Beach area though.
11 Maimonides Med Ctr-NY - Like the curriculum a lot. Don't really like the hospital though.
12 NYP Hosp-Columbia & Cornell-NY - My only 4 year program I decided to actually go on. Here purely for location...oh and the PD was a nice guy.
13 U South Florida COM-Tampa - Location is great. The attitude of the program with regards to their work hours is not so great. They say that they don't need the residents to run the ED and that they believe that you need so many hours to become an expert. However, resident shifts increased when fellow residents got pregnant, turning already overworked residents into ridiculously overworked residents (and subsequently destroying their argument for high work hours)
14 UMDNJ-R W Johnson-Piscataway - Newish program. I like the curriculum. Nice PD.
15 York Hospital-PA - Do not want to live in York.
16 Hershey Med Ctr/Penn State-PA - Do not want to live in Hershey
17 Newark Beth Israel Med Ctr-NJ -
18 U Connecticut Health Ctr - did not get a good vibe from anyone here down the line from PD to residents. Bragged about things that exist at every program. Exhausting, unnecessarily long tour. Considered jumping from the helipad.

Declined interviews at : Detroit receiving, sinai grace, loma linda, rochester, buffalo, syracuse, stony brook, florida hospital, michigan state, NJMS, brooklyn hosp, virginia tech, east carolina, allegheny, albert einstein philly, morristown, staten island, wright state, st luke's, lehigh valley, geisinger,

Rejected from: BID, Wisconsin, Duke, Christ, Temple, UC Irvine, Resurrection, NYMC, Orlando, Carolinas

Declined some good ones, rejected from good ones, but definitely too many. Ranked my last interview number 1, so you really never know. PM with questions on specific programs

Step 1/2, 230/250+, 3/3 EM honors with 2 aways, 2 honors in 3rd year, good medical school, long time EMT, 2 strong reach experiences but no formal publications, 3 good extracurricular activities. 32 apps, 18 invites, attended 15. I will not rank on the site since you're hopefully reading this to find out where you might get interviews not for an opinion if someplace is good or not. Going from east to west.

Georgetown, George Washington, J Hopkins, Penn State, MetroHealth, Indiana, Cook, UIC, MCW, HCMC, Nebraska, Maricopa, U of Az, Univ of Washington, Stanford

I enjoyed each place above, found +'s in each. Didn't apply to Northeast or LA areas.

Apollyon said:

However, there is one unassailable fact: she WILL make you into a superior EM physician. Not passable, not good enough, not "not bad", but excellent. I was an f'up resident, and she made me toe the line. The brusque and the driven, yes, I see that. However, her ways work.

Click to expand...

I appreciate this comment because it gets back to one of the core issues that I thought about when ranking programs--the "do I like the PD" question is an important one--but not an all encompassing question. There is some small part of me (and I imagine of other MS4's as well) that is afraid that I'll find a way to coast through residency, and leave not knowing the things I should. I want to know that someone is there to kick my ass in gear, and make me accountable for being an awesome EM doc when I drop the ball myself. And yes, I should be self-motivated, and yes, I usually am. But I also want to know that I'm not going to get by on my friendly nature and baseline intelligence. I want to know I'll be pushed. For better or worse, I felt like the PD at UCSF was going to be able to deliver in that regard.

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sylvanthus said:

Any non-stellar applicants care to chime in? It's like I entered the bloody derm forum with everyone and there mom having step 1/2 in the 250s, multiple pubs, AOA, etc etc etc. I know people like to toot their own horn and quite frankly can't blame them all that much, but some variety would be a good thing I think.

Click to expand...

Sure I had 220's on both steps. Average class rank. Good extracurriculars and research. MD but not a highly ranked school.

my top 8:
1.OSU- I loved the emphasis on active learning, Columbus is a young, fun city and the night out with the residents was great
2.Maricopa- Dr. Katz is amazing, Residents were down to earth, I also heart cacti (inside joke to people who interviewed there)
3.UTSW- Place is huge, new ED is a major plus, odd they are still under surgery dept. for how big of a program they have (19 per class I believe)
4.Metro-Cleveland: Residents overworked but did a second-look there and the training there really was top notch. Only level 1 trauma center in Cleveland
5.Resurrection- Board pass rate and inservice scores are very impressive. I love chicago and heard great things about the program.
6.NY Methodist- only residency that offered a liveable salary in NY, heard from a couple rotating students that didactics aren't that great, residents seemed easy to get along with
7.Grand Rapids- Was pleasantly surprised by the city, residents a bit too family oriented for me (I didn't get the vibe the residents went out together very often), nicest hospital I interviewed at
8.Akron General- I loved Beeson and everyone I talk to raves about him. The residents there were fun and welcoming. I don't like the fact there are two EM residency programs in Akron (and two level 1 trauma centers).

Truth is I would be content with any of my top 8. Not much separated them in my mind.

Other places I interviewed at: Drexel, Allegheny, Maimonides, Akron Summa, St. Vincent's-Toledo, Louisville, SLU

Nice, thanks man.

Now that I'm matched, done with classes, and finally have got nothing to do but post on SDN, I'll put in my $0.02. Me: avg med school, 240s on the steps, good leadership, a few clerkship honors, 1 out of 2 EM honors, 1 great SLOR 1 good SLOR, no publications.

1. OHSU - pros: amazing program in an amazing city. Awesome faculty who are both super-supportive and accomplished, diversity of training sites, enough trauma to get really good at it (don't really need that much for this), great support staff, great off-service rotations, autonomy, really clicked with the PD and the residents, residents are all super-tight, lots of research opportunities, portland (awesome city with great cost of living). Cons: rain.
2. UC Davis - Similar to OHSU as faculty and residents are all really really cool. Huge catchment area, great community experience, lots of research opportunities, great u/s experience, great ancillary staff, really like the PD, really liked sacramento (lots to do, close to skiing and SF, the american river is right there, etc),opportunities for advocacy in Sacramento. Cons: 12h shifts, hot summers
3. Denver - pros: 4th year residents are ballers, great faculty, well-respected program, amazing location, great mix between denver health and the university hospital, lots of autonomy for residents, residents run the EMS line, residents all seemed really cool. Cons: 4 years, lots of shifts, didn't totally click with the PD or other faculty members
4. Highland - pros: Bay area, lots of cool faculty, residents were tight, energetic didactic sessions, trauma (thought it's overrated), county patients, bay area. Cons: 4 years, weak EMR, ancillary staff is OK, cost of living, peds only at Oakland Children's, some faculty were a bit quirky
5. UCSF-SFGH - pros: great training sites (UCSF and SFGH), some awesome faculty members, great residents, great city, good trauma (though EM residents don't do all airways) cons: 4 years, relatively new program, PD came across a bit too unlikeable (but I have no doubt that she is an outstanding PD), cost of living, no good way of commuting between the 2 sites when the shuttle isn't running (ie night shifts)
6. Brown - awesome program, super-awesome PD, great residents. Wasn't crazy about Providence, 4 years
7. Maine Med - 3 years, great clinical experience, weak on trauma, brrrrrrrrrr
8. Arizona - UMC - loved the PD, great residents, nice patient diversity. Hot....
9. St. Luke's - Happy happy residents, great 2 sites to train, don't think I could do manhattan for 3 years
10. Carolinas - Amazing program with outstanding reputation. Residents know how to have a great time, great patent pathology. The south....not me.
11. Harbor UCLA - Amazing program. LA's not for me.
12. UCSD - Wasn't crazy about the program but the city is awesome...
13. UNC (north carolina) - good program, awesome PD, The south....not me.

Bumping this thread reminded me I should post too, I suppose. Couples matched, so my rank list ended up a little bit different than it otherwise would have (although my #1, where I ultimately matched, would not have changed). My caveat is that I am heavily biased toward county programs, which may not be everyone's cup of tea.

Stats: Step 1 255, Step 2 275, six of eight "letters of distinction" (UCLA's equivalent of high honors), AOA, Excellence in Emergency Medicine award from SAEM.

1. Harbor-UCLA
(+): Awesome people with highly respected faculty, outstanding clinical education, ridiculously high acuity, very appreciative patient population, will be in new ED.
(-): Intern year has lots of non-ED stuff and off-service rotations such as wards/ICU are paper charts still. Benefits/wages are not as high in proportion to the cost of living as other programs.

2. Highland*
(+): Essentially my impression of Highland from my interview day was "Harbor in Northern California" which was appealing to me. Really nice people, great clinical training in a high acuity and high-volume ED. High salary due to unionized status. Partnership with UCSF lends itself to strong off-service rotations in some areas.
(-): Many of those who rotated through Highland from my school felt the patient population was not nearly as appreciative as that of LA's.
* had I rotated here, it may have moved it up to #1, but I ultimately went with the program I knew I would be really happy at.

3. Stanford
(+): Great people, happy residents, three different places to rotate through (Stanford, Kaiser, Santa Clara) to get different flavors of practice. Outstanding opportunities if you are interested in doing... anything, really -- lots of international support.
(-): Santa Clara isn't as "county" of a county hospital as Harbor or Highland, lower acuity patients at other sites.

Since my ROL would have been different were I not couples matching, the following other programs that I ranked were in no particular order, and if anyone wants input on any particular one I'd be happy to add it! (lots of these have been covered many times already)
UC Davis, UC San Diego, UC San Francisco, UC Los Angeles, Beth Israel Deaconess, MGH/BWH.