Occupy the imbalance!

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Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

Good idea.

I think the best opportunity to organize a demonstration/protest is AT the APA conference because that will get the most awareness within the community.

Originally Posted by O Gurl

Thumbs up to physical protests. There are benefits to both approaches. Picketing headquarters may appeal more to those who want to boycott the convention. The convention may be more convenient because the audience is gathered (like T4C pointed out). Personally, I would be game for either.

Working on it. Join the FB group.

It'll be at Convention. Most of the people it should be in front of are rarely physically in the APA HQ building.

Originally Posted by 4410

I believe there is much mis-information and people get the programs at designated institutions confused. Argosy/Alliant/Nova and other comparable professional programs have faculty from APA accredited programs and they follow the APA accredited training curriculum. I believe most of the locations for these three Universities are APA accredited. I believe they have to follow the same standards as all programs applying for APA accreditation so how can they be de-certified unless they are not following the APA standards?

These programs are not in any way similar to programs like DeVry or University of Phoenix which are mostly online programs. It seems that there is much mis-information floating around as students in these programs have required stats and research courses and do engage in research. How can generalization be made based on talking with one or two students? Students in these programs pass the EPPP and gain licensure and get accepted to APA accredited internships. Are all of these measures flawed? You could make similar generalizations about PhD university based programs as some of these students never pass the EPPP or gain licensure or get accepted into APA accredited internships. Could it be the program rather than the student characteristics? Everyone seems biased with broad generalizations on this topic.

First paragraph: Yeah. This is the POINT. Standards are too low, and do not account for outcomes.

Second: DeVry and U Phoenix are not accredited. Neither has sent any students through APPIC, ever. Look at the APPIC report. And, generalizations are made based on the 11 years of APPIC data, not two students.

Also, if you, you know, READ the paper I wrote about it, you'll see that we wrote it partially to move AWAY from the PhD vs. PsyD generalizations of past work, and focus more on the variables of interest (contribution to number of unmatched students).

I'm well aware that these programs are not online, but Devry and ITT Tech (I didn't compare to U Phoenix) offer many campus-based programs as well. Online is a separate issue - I was simply referring to things like resources (pitiful libraries, fewer opportunities for cross-department collaborations/training, the sorts of folks generally teaching at them). You are correct that generalizations cannot be made by talking to 1-2 students (though for the record, its more like 15-20 I've spoken to in person, not counting the multitude of others online and secondhand info from others who encountered their students). However, that was just one place where this belief comes from - also from seeing who their faculty are, seeing the dissertations the students produce, looking at match rates (MUCH lower, and some don't even require everyone apply to APA internships) and EPPP scores across programs, seeing and hearing about the curriculum at these schools, etc. However, keep in mind when we are talking with schools we are inherently talking about means, not individuals. Does anyone really believe we could line up a random sampling of Argosy students and a random sampling of Minnesota students and not be able to tell which group is which based on any of a number of different metrics?

RE: APA-accreditation, you are right that they currently are accredited. That's sort of the point...that many of us feel accreditation standards are way too low and that these schools managing to get accredited is just one example of that. APA is a minimum standard...not something to take pride in. I've used the analogy before when someone posted that they picked their school because it required they at least do SOME kind of dissertation as being akin to selecting an apartment on the grounds that it was not currently on fire. Its certainly better than one that IS on fire, but I like to aim a little higher.

I'm also not saying that no one is saying that no one at these institutions does any research ever. Yet, how many methods/stats courses do they take? How many posters/publications does the typical student have at graduation? How much time are they expected to spend doing research? What percentage of their faculty even have lab space and/or publish regularly, in good places? I can continue listing these issues, but the point is if you just look at the averages and the "expectations" of students, they just aren't as high.

Originally Posted by Ollie123

I'm also not saying that no one is saying that no one at these institutions does any research ever. Yet, how many methods/stats courses do they take? How many posters/publications does the typical student have at graduation? How much time are they expected to spend doing research? What percentage of their faculty even have lab space and/or publish regularly, in good places? I can continue listing these issues, but the point is if you just look at the averages and the "expectations" of students, they just aren't as high.

To pro-actively head off the, "I don't want to be an academic researcher" response....research is an important aspect of doctoral training, period. It influences clinical competencies. It is involved in selecting treatment interventions. It is also part of assessment development, selection, and use. You may never publish or present something once you leave your training (most private practice clinicians do not), but you will at least know how to do it.

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

To pro-actively head off the, "I don't want to be an academic researcher" response....research is an important aspect of doctoral training, period. It influences clinical competencies. It is involved in selecting treatment interventions. It is also part of assessment development, selection, and use. You may never publish or present something once you leave your training (most private practice clinicians do not), but you will at least know how to do it.

Though even in the "PhD" programs at many of these schools, the research experiences seem less than impressive. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to be a researcher, there is a lot wrong with any program that allows its students to get away without doing a real dissertation, or to otherwise minimize their research training. I'm at one of the most research-focused programs in the country and our average clinical hours when applying for internship exceed the average. I'd love it if I could just do research 100% of the time, but you won't hear me say "Well, I don't want to practice so I'm just going to take 2 classes in therapy/assessment, do nothing else that could be construed as clinical experience, and still call myself a clinical psychologist". Yet we hear the reverse all the time

Originally Posted by 4410

I believe there is much mis-information and people get the programs at designated institutions confused. Argosy/Alliant/Nova and other comparable professional programs have faculty from APA accredited programs and they follow the APA accredited training curriculum. I believe most of the locations for these three Universities are APA accredited. I believe they have to follow the same standards as all programs applying for APA accreditation so how can they be de-certified unless they are not following the APA standards?

These programs are not in any way similar to programs like DeVry or University of Phoenix which are mostly online programs. It seems that there is much mis-information floating around as students in these programs have required stats and research courses and do engage in research. How can generalization be made based on talking with one or two students? Students in these programs pass the EPPP and gain licensure and get accepted to APA accredited internships. Are all of these measures flawed? You could make similar generalizations about PhD university based programs as some of these students never pass the EPPP or gain licensure or get accepted into APA accredited internships. Could it be the program rather than the student characteristics? Everyone seems biased with broad generalizations on this topic.

This is chock full of misinformation, as a previous poster pointed out.

It would be great to see more brainstorming/discussion around these approaches:
boycotting convention
press releases/interviews
class action
individual suits
picketing
any APA-independent committee formation to organize dialogue with APA, press, etc.

We can be mindful of our actual relationship to APA, too. It can feel like APA is a faceless, governing entity of committees and subcommittees under which we may practice, and under which we are regulated. In reality this big, faceless system of governance is also coordinated by just a few individuals, to protect us. They ostensibly work for us and as an entity called APA they are maintained by our membership, our subscriptions, and our presence at convention. If APA (I'd love to refer to people specifically to promote accountability) wants future members despite an entity like PCSAS on the horizon, those few people are going to have to actually coordinate a solution. By neglect of science and neglect of the welfare of new professionals, these individuals are shooting themselves in the foot.

Originally Posted by MCParent

Working on it. Join the FB group.

It'll be at Convention. Most of the people it should be in front of are rarely physically in the APA HQ building.

I wasn't planning on going to APA, but if there is a protest, I just might go to be a part of that. That would be awesome.

Originally Posted by Rivi

I wasn't planning on going to APA, but if there is a protest, I just might go to be a part of that. That would be awesome.

I have the same intention. Does anyone have any media contacts that are local to Orlando, FL? Anyone local to Orlando, FL (a constituent who votes there) should contact their local legislatures to inform them of the problem and ask for their support. Even one comment of support from an elected official would be very helpful to get a local news station to do a story. Mental health access is a HUUUUUGE problem everywhere, so supporting our movement ultimately will help the community through raising standards.

I might consider going to that, too!

I believe you cannot generalize as many individuals commenting on the problems with not enough internship sites. When you look at University based programs there is much variance. Commonly the clinical psychology students are housed in a different locations whereby they rarely if ever have much to do with the rest of the University. Similarly many medical school have little to do with the larger University. I believe they are completely seperate and often in different city than the University at large. All they have in common is the University name,

Semantics seems to be the overiding issues as my guess is most clinical psychology programs are merely housed in the University but have limited interaction or involvement with the rest of the university. This is common for most Graduate school programs...normally Vet Med or Med School programs are not even housed near the University that they share a name with.

Also, Phd versus PsyD seem insignificant in this day in age as there is much variance among each type of degree program. What do you do when a person has both the PhD and PsyD as I've known some individuals who have the PhD in school psychology or even the MD degree and have gone back to complete the PsyD in clinical psychology.

I know my opinion is frequently discounted based on bias but certainly I do not believe you can generalize these notions to the imbalance of internship sites. I certainly would not agree to protest at the APA conference in Orlando, Florida as this would or could be harmful to the profession of psychologists and against the ethical principals we abide to working under. The imbalance is not APA responsibilty and my guess is that any protest at the APA conference would end up in the Orlando Police department putting many graduate students in jail and this could have even a greater impact on you eventually practicing as a psychologists.

It is my guess that if a protest at APA were to occur that it would have just the opposite effect than what most of your are thinking. Society will have even a more negative perspective than current on the practice of psychology and this is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot. My guess is some graduate schools would put students on probation or terminate you from their program if you go to the point of being involved in a sanctioned protest at the national conference. Protest is not how we solve problems when you are in a doctoral level program...this somehow seems a superficial means to an ends and does not reflect the ethical principals to practice as a psychologists.

Try this....do a protest in front of the DCT office tomorrow morning....I am sure they would have no problems with putting you on probationary status and recommending that you not be allowed to advance further towards your doctoral degree. Graduate school and licensing is not a democratic process.

This is a public forum and my guess is many faculty members of programs also read this site, including APA administrative staff. I do not agree with any sort of a sanctioned protest at the national conference for psychologist. I was going to go to the conference in Orlando this year but if a bunch of students are going to make fools out of themselves, I may have second thoughts and stay home this year.

Originally Posted by 4410

I believe you cannot generalize as many individuals commenting on the problems with not enough internship sites. When you look at University based programs there is much variance. Commonly the clinical psychology students are housed in a different locations whereby they rarely if ever have much to do with the rest of the University. Similarly many medical school have little to do with the larger University. I believe they are completely seperate and often in different city than the University at large. All they have in common is the University name,

Semantics seems to be the overiding issues as my guess is most clinical psychology programs are merely housed in the University but have limited interaction or involvement with the rest of the university. This is common for most Graduate school programs...normally Vet Med or Med School programs are not even housed near the University that they share a name with.

Also, Phd versus PsyD seem insignificant in this day in age as there is much variance among each type of degree program. What do you do when a person has both the PhD and PsyD as I've known some individuals who have the PhD in school psychology or even the MD degree and have gone back to complete the PsyD in clinical psychology.

I know my opinion is frequently discounted based on bias but certainly I do not believe you can generalize these notions to the imbalance of internship sites. I certainly would not agree to protest at the APA conference in Orlando, Florida as this would or could be harmful to the profession of psychologists and against the ethical principals we abide to working under. The imbalance is not APA responsibilty and my guess is that any protest at the APA conference would end up in the Orlando Police department puting many graduate students in jail and this could have even a greater impact on you eventually practicing as a psychologists.

From where are you getting the information that "most" university-based programs are somehow separated from the university? None of the university programs of which I know are in any way separate from their namesake university, with the vast majority placing students in university-based counseling centers that are, of course, located on said university's main campus.

Do university-based students complete practica away from the campus as well? Most definitely, but everything about the programs is housed at the university itself, not the least of which includes the faculty and the actual psychology department.

Medical schools are often also located at, or at least near, the university namesake as well. The main reason they might be a little ways away has to do with the physical space required for the hospital. However, there definitely are schools where the hospital site is in the campus itself (Emory springs to mind as one personally-known example).

As for the APA and internships, I don't see how anyone could think it's not a problem they need to deal with. They perpetually tout themselves as the nation's/world's largest psychological organization, so when the field is dealing with the significant issue, the APA needs to become involved...particularly when it's their accreditation systems and requirements that might be contributing to said problem.

Originally Posted by 4410

I know my opinion is frequently discounted based on bias but certainly I do not believe you can generalize these notions to the imbalance of internship sites.

For goodness sake man, quit playing the victim! Its irritating! Your posts are often corrected because your posts are of often full of misinformation, faulty assumptions, and sometimes, just plain false facts (SEE ABOVE). Are you oblivious to all the misinformation and errors pointed out in your posts...both in this thread and in others?

Originally Posted by 4410

I certainly would not agree to protest at the APA conference in Orlando, Florida as this would or could be harmful to the profession of psychologists and against the ethical principals we abide to working under.

Regarding this, you should know that when you make statement like that, you are obligated to state what principle is being violated. I hope you were taught this. I'd be interested to hear the ethical code that is violated be exercising one's first amendment rights to a governing authority...

Originally Posted by 4410

I know my opinion is frequently discounted based on bias

Your opinion is discounted because your posts are uninformed, illogical, or irrational (others have posted some specific instances since your post).

And, unfortunately, those who do not use reason cannot be swayed by it.

If the APA manages to have students arrested for arranging a peaceful, legal protest on the internship issue, that is going to make them look far worse than anyone getting arrested. It would likely get us an army of pro bono ACLU lawyers trying to sue them out of existence, and a number of people with no connection to the field whatsoever rioting outside their headquarters. Come to think of it, that actually sounds like a pretty ideal outcome to a protest

I'm somewhat confused by the other things in your post. I'm hard pressed to think of one traditional university program where the psych department is off-site, and either way that does nothing to address the many other points that have been brought up.

Originally Posted by erg923

For goodness sake man, quit playing the victim! Its irritating (not just to me, obviously)! Your posts are often corrected because your posts are of often full of misinformation, faulty assumptions, and sometimes, just plain false facts (SEE ABOVE). Are you oblivious to all the misinformation and errors pointed out in your posts...both in this thread and in others?



Regarding this, you should know that when you make statement like that, you are obligated to state what principle is being violated. I hope you were taught this. I'd be interested to hear the ethical code that is violated be exercising one's first amendment rights to a governing authority...

Principal A through E.....I have attended APA conferences in the past where there were protest and it caused much more harm than good, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by 4410

Graduate school and licensing is not a democratic process.

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard...for multiple reasons.

Pretty sure that if our programs kicked us out for protesting at APA, we really COULD take legal action. Heh.

Originally Posted by 4410

I believe you cannot generalize as many individuals commenting on the problems with not enough internship sites. When you look at University based programs there is much variance. Commonly the clinical psychology students are housed in a different locations whereby they rarely if ever have much to do with the rest of the University. Similarly many medical school have little to do with the larger University. I believe they are completely seperate and often in different city than the University at large. All they have in common is the University name,

Semantics seems to be the overiding issues as my guess is most clinical psychology programs are merely housed in the University but have limited interaction or involvement with the rest of the university. This is common for most Graduate school programs...normally Vet Med or Med School programs are not even housed near the University that they share a name with.

Also, Phd versus PsyD seem insignificant in this day in age as there is much variance among each type of degree program. What do you do when a person has both the PhD and PsyD as I've known some individuals who have the PhD in school psychology or even the MD degree and have gone back to complete the PsyD in clinical psychology.

I know my opinion is frequently discounted based on bias but certainly I do not believe you can generalize these notions to the imbalance of internship sites. I certainly would not agree to protest at the APA conference in Orlando, Florida as this would or could be harmful to the profession of psychologists and against the ethical principals we abide to working under. The imbalance is not APA responsibilty and my guess is that any protest at the APA conference would end up in the Orlando Police department puting many graduate students in jail and this could have even a greater impact on you eventually practicing as a psychologists.

It is my guess that if a protest at APA were to occur that it would have just the opposite effect than what most of your are thinking. Society will have even a more negative perspective than current on the practice of psychology and this is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot. My guess is some graduate schools would put students on probation or terminate you from their program if you go to the point of being involved in a sanctioned protest at the national conference. Protest is not how we solve problems when you are in a doctoral level program...this somehow seems a superficial means to an ends and does not reflect the ethical principals to practice as a psychologists.

Try this....do a protest in front of the DCT office tomorrow morning....I am sure they would have no problems with putting you on probationary status and recommending that you not be allowed to advance further towards your doctoral degree. Graduate school and licensing is not a democratic process.

This is a public forum and my guess is many faculty members of programs also read this site, including APA administrative staff. I do not agree with any sort of a sanctioned protest at the national conference for psychologist. I was going to go to the conference in Orlando this year but if a bunch of students are going to make fools out of themselves, I may have second thoughts and stay home this year.

Facepalm.jpg

Originally Posted by 4410

Principal A through E.....I have attended APA conferences in the past where there were protest and it caused much more harm than good, in my opinion.

The Code! The code! For goodness sakes man! Do you know how to use the damn thing?!

Please, please, as Mike Parent urged you, dont fill this board with poor and distorted information. If your dont know what your talking about, then at least be show some humility and own it. This does a disservice to all those who use this board for gathering information about the field. Continuing to do this will likely be grounds for banning you from this board. Please be careful.

Originally Posted by moneyphd

...
It would be great to see more brainstorming/discussion around these approaches:
boycotting convention
press releases/interviews
class action
individual suits
picketing
any APA-independent committee formation to organize dialogue with APA, press, etc.

We can be mindful of our actual relationship to APA, too. It can feel like APA is a faceless, governing entity of committees and subcommittees under which we may practice, and under which we are regulated. In reality this big, faceless system of governance is also coordinated by just a few individuals, to protect us. They ostensibly work for us and as an entity called APA they are maintained by our membership, our subscriptions, and our presence at convention. If APA (I'd love to refer to people specifically to promote accountability) wants future members despite an entity like PCSAS on the horizon, those few people are going to have to actually coordinate a solution. By neglect of science and neglect of the welfare of new professionals, these individuals are shooting themselves in the foot.

Originally Posted by Rivi

I wasn't planning on going to APA, but if there is a protest, I just might go to be a part of that. That would be awesome.

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

I have the same intention. Does anyone have any media contacts that are local to Orlando, FL? Anyone local to Orlando, FL (a constituent who votes there) should contact their local legislatures to inform them of the problem and ask for their support. Even one comment of support from an elected official would be very helpful to get a local news station to do a story. Mental health access is a HUUUUUGE problem everywhere, so supporting our movement ultimately will help the community through raising standards.

Originally Posted by cara susanna

I might consider going to that, too!

OK. Well, might as well get ideas out here. I'll post a parallel post in the Occupy FB group.

Convention:
-Visibility. I'll be ordering Occupy the Imbalance pins (same logo as my avatar, and the FB group). I'll give these away for free at convention. Distribution is a little hard to work out; I was planning on just posting my schedule and asking people to find me, when I thought I'd be giving away 100 of these. Now it looks more like 500 or more. Ideas on getting those to people are welcome. This is intended to help group members recognize each other, network, and increase awareness (e.g., when people look at/ask about your pins).
-Actual presence: Business meetings, etc., are open. We can attend. Since those things are usually attended by about 8 people, even a group of 20 will be a noticeable presence. We can raise the topic of the imbalance and encourage division/committee leadership to take a stance on the imbalance. Last year I recall the program book taking forever to come out, so that might require quick planning after it comes out to let everyone know. Any divisions of which you are a member would be especially important to go to.
-An actual Occupy. This would REQUIRE a large group, or it would look feeble. There are several pretty obvious times/places when we can do this (e.g., outside of the presidential address, outside of a talk everyone is going to go to [I don't know if there's a Zimbardo parallel going on this year]).

Originally Posted by MCParent

OK. Well, might as well get ideas out here. I'll post a parallel post in the Occupy FB group.

Convention:
-Visibility. I'll be ordering Occupy the Imbalance pins (same logo as my avatar, and the FB group). I'll give these away for free at convention. Distribution is a little hard to work out; I was planning on just posting my schedule and asking people to find me, when I thought I'd be giving away 100 of these. Now it looks more like 500 or more. Ideas on getting those to people are welcome. This is intended to help group members recognize each other, network, and increase awareness (e.g., when people look at/ask about your pins).
-Actual presence: Business meetings, etc., are open. We can attend. Since those things are usually attended by about 8 people, even a group of 20 will be a noticeable presence. We can raise the topic of the imbalance and encourage division/committee leadership to take a stance on the imbalance. Last year I recall the program book taking forever to come out, so that might require quick planning after it comes out to let everyone know. Any divisions of which you are a member would be especially important to go to.
-An actual Occupy. This would REQUIRE a large group, or it would look feeble. There are several pretty obvious times/places when we can do this (e.g., outside of the presidential address, outside of a talk everyone is going to go to [I don't know if there's a Zimbardo parallel going on this year]).

The wife and I were gonna do Sea World and Universal..DAMN YOU GUYS!

Originally Posted by erg923

The wife and I were gonna do Sea World and Universal..DAMN YOU GUYS!

Right, no. This is realistic. It's next to freakin DISNEYWORLD this year. We should incorporate that fact into the planning.

It is insanely hot in August in Orlando though. That might encourage folks to stay in.

Wow. Just.....wow. If you want to know where the bias comes from....it comes from you. It comes from interacting with people like you. This is another thread that has become an outstanding illustration of why people object to those institutions.

PS - My DCT would likely be quite understanding and help us figure out a solution. How would yours feel about you making them sound like a vindictive d-bag at a school that has little concern for the well-being of its students on a public forum?

Anyways, back to occupy....

I like the idea of attending the business meetings and/or any other event where comments and questions from the membership are allowed/encouraged. Being able to have 2-3 pre-written questions/talking points would allow for a focused discussion. This would also allow for consistency across panels...so each committee/board member can respond and their answers compared Apples to Apples. It is important to get comments 'on the record', so we can have tangible data to help further the discussion. It can also be helpful in informing the membership of leadership action/inaction, as that can help shape voting for future positions.

Getting everyone together in one place before the Presidential Address would seem ideal. The pins are a great idea, as they would bring more membership attention to the issue, as MANY members of APA don't believe to the listservs and/or are not very active.

Oh, also: the APAGS elections are coming up. I'll be asking all the the nominees for all the positions to make a statement on the imbalance, and what they plan to do about it in their roles. Responses posted to the Occupy FB group (hopefully also to the FB pages they all set up about their candidacies).

T4C--yup, a consistent question is good. I will not be able to be present at every meeting (and, anyway, it would be better if members of the divisions asked the questions; I'm only a member of like 5 divisions).

Glad you like the pins :-p help me figure out how to distribute them.

*Edited* Sorry, I just realized I'm repeating a lot of what was already said because I didn't notice there was a 4th page to this thread. Carry on.

I'm just in awe of someone in a thread titled "Occupy the Imbalance" arguing that peaceful protest is unethical and warrants getting kicked out of your program. I didn't know that free speech was considered unethical.

Honestly, I'm so happy that people are actually doing something about this issue. Thanks so much for getting this going, Mike. I wish my internship was much closer to Florida... or, you know, paid enough for me to fly there.

Originally Posted by RGirl

I'm just in awe of someone in a thread titled "Occupy the Imbalance" arguing that peaceful protest is unethical and warrants getting kicked out of your program. I didn't know that free speech was considered unethical.

Honestly, I'm so happy that people are actually doing something about this issue. Thanks so much for getting this going, Mike. I wish my internship was much closer to Florida... or, you know, paid enough for me to fly there.

Because free speech violates ALL the (unenforceable) principles of the APA ethics code, duh!

Originally Posted by RGirl

I'm just in awe of someone in a thread titled "Occupy the Imbalance" arguing that peaceful protest is unethical and warrants getting kicked out of your program. I didn't know that free speech was considered unethical.

Honestly, I'm so happy that people are actually doing something about this issue. Thanks so much for getting this going, Mike. I wish my internship was much closer to Florida... or, you know, paid enough for me to fly there.

Does not sound overly peaceful if students are going to go to the presidential speech and try to give stickers and items to psychologists at the national convention. Regardless of being peaceful or not, the problem is not with APA, professional schools, PsyD or PhD programs or many of the reasons posted on this website.

What is 60 minutes going to do a documentary on the imbalance? From my perspective a protest is not a viable solution to the problems of a shortage of internship sites. A protest is a self-centered attempt of gaining attention and there are much better ways of having a peaceful means of addressing the issues at hand.

Many police departments will not allow peaceful protests as it is commonly the case that a peaceful protest turn into a non peaceful protest and people are injured. Good luck with having a peaceful protest as my guess it won't be allowed and people will be arrested. We aren't in the 60's anymore!

Originally Posted by 4410

Does not sound overly peaceful if students are going to go to the presidential speech and try to give stickers and items to psychologists at the national convention. Regardless of being peaceful or not, the problem is not with APA, professional schools, PsyD or PhD programs or many of the reasons posted on this website.

What is 60 minutes going to do a documentary on the imbalance? From my perspective a protest is not a viable solution to the problems of a shortage of internship sites. A protest is a self-centered attempt of gaining attention and there are much better ways of having a peaceful means of addressing the issues at hand.

Many police departments will not allow peaceful protests as it is commonly the case that a peaceful protest turn into a non peaceful protest and people are injured. Good luck with having a peaceful protest as my guess it won't be allowed and people will be arrested. We aren't in the 60's anymore!

Oh, yes, handing out stickers sounds downright violent. I'm sure psychologists will be petrified at the prospect of having to say no thank you to a bunch of fellow psychologists and graduate students.

Quite simply, peaceful protests are not against the law. Period.

And most protests do not turn violent. Do you really see a bunch of APA members smashing windows at the conference center and barricading attendees? Seriously?

I was a part of the 2011 Wisconsin protests, which lasted nearly a month. One day there were nearly 100,000 people there. The police department in Madison made several press releases about how the protests remarkable remained peaceful. In that month period, there were fewer arrests than there were at a typical Badgers football games. If 100,000 people can remain calm, surely a bunch of professionals can manage.

Ok. 4410's posts on this thread are sufficiently poorly-informed and irrational so as to be ignored. I love debate but I've got no interest in a dialogue with people who make things up and say nonsense to support their positions.

Help me figure how to distribute the buttons.

Originally Posted by MCParent

Ok. 4410's posts on this thread are sufficiently poorly-informed and irrational so as to be ignored. I love debate but I've got no interest in a dialogue with people who make things up and say nonsense to support their positions.

Help me figure how to distribute the buttons.

Duly noted. Sorry for getting sucked in... you think I'd know now about how effective arguing on the internet is.

As for the buttons, maybe have a team meet early on the first day of the conference to strategize. Perhaps they could have t-shirts or something to have them easily identified when handing out buttons. Maybe you could have a team strategy about different places people could be to hand them out - e.g., coffee break locations, outside of keynote addresses, by the registration tables.

Originally Posted by erg923

Because free speech violates ALL the (unenforceable) principles of the APA ethics code, duh!

It's basically at par with sleeping with your clients.

You are right and my apologies for contributing to the derailing. I'm increasingly convinced he/she is trolling as some of these things are so totally off-the-wall it seems a bit too outlandishly ignorant to be real, even for the interwebs...

I think having certain meeting locations (at varying times) is good, particularly at the grad-student focused events (e.g. APAGS events). You could rely on a network model (i.e. make extras and give everyone a handful to give their friends). If enough people are on board and willing, you could even set up a rotating schedule of folks roaming near registration desks. I'm not familiar with the Orlando location, but there are always more heavily trafficked areas at these things.

Of course, you could always walk around wearing a sandwich board that says "Ask me why APA hates graduate students"...but THAT one might get you in trouble

Edit: Depending on whether the buttons themselves are "Protest" or "Show of support" would APAGS be willing to stand by this as an important issue and perhaps make a case for formal involvement in distribution? Any chance these being kept AT the registration desks or distributed with student registration packets? Figure that is a huge long-shot and APA is not exactly known for promoting open and honest communication on professional issues, but just brainstorming....

I wonder if APS would report on something like this?

*bump*

We're rounding the bend to SEVEN HUNDRED signatures!!

GIANT thanks to folks who shared this! Keep that going! Obviously some people are tapping social networks I didn't even know existed!

Originally Posted by MCParent

*bump*

We're rounding the bend to SEVEN HUNDRED signatures!!

GIANT thanks to folks who shared this! Keep that going! Obviously some people are tapping social networks I didn't even know existed!

Wow, awesome. Does anyone remember how many signatures last year's petition ended up getting? My gut is telling me that 700 is a substantially higher number, which is excellent.

Originally Posted by moneyphd

I wonder if APS would report on something like this?

Good idea. Checking now.

Originally Posted by AcronymAllergy

Wow, awesome. Does anyone remember how many signatures last year's petition ended up getting? My gut is telling me that 700 is a substantially higher number, which is excellent.

I looked at it the other day....~500 if I remember correctly.

If anyone wants to circulate this to non-psych folks (e.g. Rotary Club, Community Organizations, etc), that can really help with the #'s. Whole communities are being impacted by the Imbalance...albeit more indirectly.

Have you posted this in the interview, invite, acceptance threads? I think those students are the ones who would most benefit from any changes the petition brings about, though it might require additional explanation.

Originally Posted by Duck Duck Goose

Have you posted this in the interview, invite, acceptance threads? I think those students are the ones who would most benefit from any changes the petition brings about, though it might require additional explanation.

Doing so now.

New to this thread, and to some extent the issue, but its become a whole lot more relevant as I just got accepted into a PhD program. I wanted to throw my support and thanks for you guys organizing this petition and taking up the cause. I've signed and passed along the petition anyway I could.

Originally Posted by napsych8771

New to this thread, and to some extent the issue, but its become a whole lot more relevant as I just got accepted into a PhD program. I wanted to throw my support and thanks for you guys organizing this petition and taking up the cause. I've signed and passed along the petition anyway I could.

Awesome Thanks!!

Originally Posted by napsych8771

New to this thread, and to some extent the issue, but its become a whole lot more relevant as I just got accepted into a PhD program. I wanted to throw my support and thanks for you guys organizing this petition and taking up the cause. I've signed and passed along the petition anyway I could.

Congratulations on your acceptance! And way to be aware of the issues! You're off to a good start.

APAG's official statement about the Match:

APAGS Statement on the 2012 APPIC Internship Match

For students in clinical, counseling, school, and combined-integrated psychology doctoral programs, the internship match is an important benchmark, and the process of applying can be stressful. The APPIC match statistics indicate that out of 4009 students participating in the 2012 match, 2968 successfully matched to an internship. Unfortunately, 1041 students did not match, for a total of 26%.

APA and APAGS remain deeply concerned about the internship crisis. APAGS considers the discrepancy between the number of applicants for internship and the number of internship positions (particularly APA-accredited positions) to be a crisis for doctoral education in professional psychology. APAGS will continue to advocate for long term solutions to the internship crisis until all students from APA-accredited doctoral programs are able to secure APA-accredited internships.

For those who successfully matched to an internship, APAGS would like to congratulate you. This is a significant accomplishment, and APAGS wishes you the best on your journey to your doctorate.
For those who did not match, APAGS extends its support during this difficult time. Students may want to look at this article written by a former APAGS Committee member for suggestions about next steps. Please consider these suggestions as you make plans.

APA and APAGS find the internship crisis to be unacceptable, and are working diligently to advocate for strategies to mitigate this crisis, along with the greater psychology community (Grus, McCutcheon, & Berry, 2011). One of these efforts was a successful collaboration with APA’s Education Directorate and Government Relations Offices, APPIC, the New York State Psychological Association, and other groups to restore funding for 22 interns at six APA-accredited doctoral internships in New York state. Governor Andrew Cuomo had threatened terminating funding for these slots, but reversed his position and restored full funding for the interns to complete their training after receiving hundreds of letters from psychology graduate students, psychologists, and other psychology allies. This was a direct result of an APAGS advocacy alert that was distributed to thousands of individuals.

In addition, APAGS has done the following this past year to address the internship crisis:
· APAGS held a retreat at its Fall 2011 meeting on the internship crisis. APAGS members reviewed the latest published literature on the crisis and met with leading staff members in APA working on internship issues;
· APAGS continues to raise awareness of the internship crisis within APA governance, professional psychology training councils, and the greater psychology community;
· APAGS sent 8 delegates to the 2011 Education Leadership Conference, where students met with at least 15 congressional offices to develop support for the Graduate Psychology Education program, which funds doctoral training, internship and postdoctoral training opportunities;
· APAGS has continued to dialogue with the Council of Chairs of Training Councils (CCTC) at its business meetings to collaborate directly with the various training councils responsible for professional psychology education, in addition to continuing a close liaison relationship with CCTC;
· APAGS has successfully pushed for more coverage and visibility of the internship in major APA materials, including gradPSYCH and the Monitor;
· APAGS has moved its annual Internship Workshop to regular convention programming (rather than a pre-convention workshop), allowing APA Convention registrants to attend at no cost (compared to a previous cost of $25-$35).

At the Fall 2011 business meeting, APAGS developed the following policy on the internship crisis:
APAGS believes that all emerging psychologists deserve quality, respectful, and complete training. The internship crisis is a membership, workforce, and health service provider issue that affects all of APA, as well as consumers of psychological services. APAGS believes the internship crisis will need multi-level and multi-systemic changes at the student, doctoral program, and internship program levels. APAGS strives for an APA-accredited internship for each student from an APA-accredited doctoral program. Based on these values, APAGS will continue to collaborate with all relevant stakeholders and develop a systematic framework to identify short- and long-term goals with regard to the internship crisis.

This statement is intended to guide APAGS in its advocacy for comprehensive strategies to address and ultimately resolve the internship crisis. Simply put, APAGS would like to see every student from an APA-accredited doctoral program be matched to an APA-accredited internship position. The solution to the internship crisis requires a partnership between psychology leadership, graduate students and the training community. We invite you to become involved at the grassroots level. APAGS will continue to advocate on this issue until every student from an APA-accredited doctoral program has the opportunity to be matched to an APA-accredited doctoral internship position.
Grus, C. L., McCutcheon, S. R., & Berry, S. L. (2011). Actions by professional psychology education and training groups to mitigate the internship imbalance. Training and Education in Professional Psychology, 5, 193-201.

bureaucratic BS and stalling.

Their goal is unachievable, and they should change their priorities.

So many words to say absolutely nothing at all. Funny that their statement does not mention the most glaring issue behind the imbalance: the drastic increase in admission rates at (you guessed it) professional schools. We need new representation and I love MC Parent's idea of asking every candidate for APAGS office to directly address the imbalance in order to earn votes--no more pointless, wordy non-statements.

Originally Posted by O Gurl

So many words to say absolutely nothing at all. Funny that their statement does not mention the most glaring issue behind the imbalance: the drastic increase in admission rates at (you guessed it) professional schools. We need new representation and I love MC Parent's idea of asking every candidate for APAGS office to directly address the imbalance in order to earn votes--no more pointless, wordy non-statements.

We'll do it. I don't think the nominees have been announced yet.

I'll also expand the social media tomorrow to include twitter (ugh. reluctantly.) and a group site called wiggio.

Btw, a friend from grad school just forwarded the petition to me... apparently it is making its way around the NPSYCH listserve. 858 signatures!