SGU vs KCUMB

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So I don't mean to start the DO vs Caribbean war but I just wanted to know which school would be better to go to if I'm looking at obtaining a non-primary care residency? And why?

Thanks for all the help!

DO, because you have the option to go to a DO residency for competitive specialties. A lot of "competitive" specialties match DO's fairly frequently as well

DO, anytime you get a chance to stay in the US you do it. No matter what specialty you want to go into.

KCUMB 100,000 times before SGU. If you want a non primary care residency you have the DO ones. If you go SGU you will likely have major problems obtaining even a primary care residency.

Originally Posted by FrkyBgStok

KCUMB 100,000 times before SGU. If you want a non primary care residency you have the DO ones. If you go SGU you will likely have major problems obtaining even a primary care residency.

truth!

KCUMB

/endthread

It's not even close. KCUMB

I'm going to go with SGU. Who wouldn't want an MD after their name!?

Originally Posted by ensuii

Who wouldn't want an MD after their name!?

Besides me?

Is this a real question?
KCUMB, no question...

Originally Posted by ensuii

I'm going to go with SGU. Who wouldn't want an MD after their name!?

I don't. I only applied to DO programs.

Go to the one that has a lower attrition rate.

Originally Posted by costales

Go to the one that has a lower attrition rate.

Don't be an idiot, go to KCUMB.

Originally Posted by Isozyme

I don't. I only applied to DO programs.

This has to be trolling. No way someone got into DO school being this clueless having never done any research on the subject and that asks DO's for their opinion on Caribbean vs DO.

Originally Posted by TriagePreMed

This has to be trolling. No way someone got into DO school being this clueless having never done any research on the subject and that asks DO's for their opinion on Caribbean vs DO.

Why would a troll post this?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...3#post12185733

He's just clueless, apparently. Or just discovered SGU.

Originally Posted by ensuii
I'm going to go with SGU. Who wouldn't want an MD after their name!?

There are a lot of factors that ought to go into your choice beside just the desire to have "MD" placed after your name. Too many in here unfairly look down on DO schools. As has been posted before, once you study at a Caribbean med school, and yes...SGU is among the best of them...you acquire a whole new set of challenges in both residency and practice in the US. Your transition would be far more seamless, if you attend a DO school instead. KCUMB had a leadership problem a few years ago, but that has been resolved and students there do very well. It's a solid school.

What is really important is that you weigh all the factors very carefully, and consider what your career will be like down the road before making such a big decision.

Originally Posted by Aquaman55

Originally Posted by ensuii
I'm going to go with SGU. Who wouldn't want an MD after their name!?

There are a lot of factors that ought to go into your choice beside just the desire to have "MD" placed after your name. Too many in here unfairly look down on DO schools. As has been posted before, once you study at a Caribbean med school, and yes...SGU is among the best of them...you acquire a whole new set of challenges in both residency and practice in the US. Your transition would be far more seamless, if you attend a DO school instead. KCUMB had a leadership problem a few years ago, but that has been resolved and students there do very well. It's a solid school.

What is really important is that you weigh all the factors very carefully, and consider what your career will be like down the road before making such a big decision.

I think there was a bit of sarcasm in ensuii's post...

Originally Posted by Dharma

I think there was a bit of sarcasm in ensuii's post...

haha, yeah...there was a lot of sarcasm in my post :-D

Kcumb!!!!!

If you could only pick one thing to wake up to sitting on your desk right next to your head, what would you pick?

KCUMB:


or SGU:

Originally Posted by twist25

I just wanted to know which school would be better to go to if I'm looking at obtaining a non-primary care residency? And why?

Go to KCUMB for the bolded reason. In addition to having their own programs, DO's do well in nabbing pretty competitive allo residencies like anesthesia and EM. I have no first hand knowledge of either institution, but any school on US soil (aside from Stewart Med ) will offer you an open run at getting into pretty much any field of medicine...it will all depend on how well you do. This is a luxury carib students don't have.

And I'm a US MD student if that matters.

If you need to ask then please go to SGU, I don't want to end up being in your lab group.

Originally Posted by DocEspana

truth!

I don't know if this is 100% accurate. The stipulation would be that if the student has the intellect/hard work to survive in an offshore medical school and do well on the boards, then acquiring an IM residency should not be as difficult as some make it to be (I know several individuals who have acheived just that from offshore med schools). That being said, there is absolutely no reason to pursue medical education at an offshore medical school when you have secured a position in a school in the US.

Eh.. i've read a lot of posts on valuemd and amazingly enough, there are individuals over there who have picked the carib over DO. Honestly I think they should uninstall their brain at that point.

Yep. I've met folks who went carib and wouldn't even consider applying DO. Nothing like making an already long and tough journey that much harder..and more expensive. This is a no-brainer for everyone who is informed on the subject (and has their head screwed on correctly)..consider yourself informed now OP

Originally Posted by ineed2stpsmurfn

Eh.. i've read a lot of posts on valuemd and amazingly enough, there are individuals over there who have picked the carib over DO. Honestly I think they should uninstall their brain at that point.

Worse yet, some of them believe that if they fail out of SGU (or any med school for that matter), a DO school would be willing to take them.

LMAO to the original poster..... Have you seen 2011's match list for KCUMB ?
you sir, are very misguided.

Yea I agree.. kcumb's 11' match list was impressive.. 16 em residencies and bunches of anesthesia. that general surgery looked good as well (am interested in)

They're delusional.

i get that, my point was looking into competitive residencies and later on with fellowships like GI, allergy/immunology, Cardio ... it seems that the MD route (even if it is going to SGU) is better than the DO route (something like KCUMB)

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2011/ResidP...=PGY1&Count=-1

vs .

http://www.kcumb.edu/acad3/PDF/2011M...yStateSite.pdf

No doubt that the kcumb list is pretty impressive and it is a great school, but when compared to SGU's list with places like hopkins on there, that makes me question the obvious choice of KCUMB>SGU.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddatasms2012.pdf
for most fellowships it seems that FMGs such as SGU grads have same match rate, if not a higher match rate.

Well, if you think you are better off that way, do it. Likewise, if being a DO is just not something you can tolerate, do it. I think if you are going IMG, you probably will do the best from SGU.

A lot of people make a big deal about competitive specialties and DO vs. caribbean, but frankly there are people in both that aren't going to get into competitive residencies due to less than stellar performace. I say go with what you feel best about. Its your decision and your time/money/life.

If you want an MD from SGU, go to SGU. Case closed.

Originally Posted by twist25

i get that, my point was looking into competitive residencies and later on with fellowships like GI, allergy/immunology, Cardio ... it seems that the MD route (even if it is going to SGU) is better than the DO route (something like KCUMB)

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2011/ResidP...=PGY1&Count=-1

vs .

http://www.kcumb.edu/acad3/PDF/2011M...yStateSite.pdf

No doubt that the kcumb list is pretty impressive and it is a great school, but when compared to SGU's list with places like hopkins on there, that makes me question the obvious choice of KCUMB>SGU.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddatasms2012.pdf
for most fellowships it seems that FMGs such as SGU grads have same match rate, if not a higher match rate.

Boy you're crazy. What sort of kooky math are you doing. Let me set you straight. You compare SGU to any schools its own size you'll see DO schools blow them away. SGU = 800-900 students graduated per year. DO = 120-150. So you'd need to compare 6 different DO schools combined against SGU. If your're going to compare KCUMB, DMUCOM, MSUCOM, CCOM, PCOM, and UMDNJSOM together against SGU, thats a fair fight because finally the student body sizes are equal. (actually, doing the math, SGU still has about 50 more students than those combined do). So thats flaw 1.

Flaw 2 is that you're citing SGU's tracking of people into fellowships. Fellowships are (mostly) due to your residency performance and connections, and not your med school anything. Because of this DO schools really dont follow them at all. That SGU does is nice, but largely irrelevant and not done by many other schools out there. Definitely not the norm.

Big huge flaw #3 is that you're comparing US-IMGs (10% of the resident population) to DOs (5% of the the resident population). So lets take the exact number you cited. 37 foreign grads became Gastroenterologists. 21 DOs did (just in ACGME fields). So without counting any AOA GI fellowships, and there are some, DOs did better than US forgiegn grads, since they are literally half the population they'd be 42 spots if the population sizes were equal.

If you go down the list of fellowships DOs will either be matching at a higher rate, or straight out HAVE MORE PEOPLE, in every fellowship but oncology. Oncology is the biggest international graduate field in medicine.

Originally Posted by DocEspana

Boy you're crazy. What sort of kooky math are you doing. Let me set you straight. You compare SGU to any schools its own size you'll see DO schools blow them away. SGU = 800-900 students graduated per year. DO = 120-150. So you'd need to compare 6 different DO schools combined against SGU. If your're going to compare KCUMB, DMUCOM, MSUCOM, CCOM, PCOM, and UMDNJSOM together against SGU, thats a fair fight because finally the student body sizes are equal. (actually, doing the math, SGU still has about 50 more students than those combined do). So thats flaw 1.

Flaw 2 is that you're citing SGU's tracking of people into fellowships. Fellowships are (mostly) due to your residency performance and connections, and not your med school anything. Because of this DO schools really dont follow them at all. That SGU does is nice, but largely irrelevant and not done by many other schools out there. Definitely not the norm.

Big huge flaw #3 is that you're comparing US-IMGs (10% of the resident population) to DOs (5% of the the resident population). So lets take the exact number you cited. 37 foreign grads became Gastroenterologists. 21 DOs did (just in ACGME fields). So without counting any AOA GI fellowships, and there are some, DOs did better than US forgiegn grads, since they are literally half the population they'd be 42 spots if the population sizes were equal.

If you go down the list of fellowships DOs will either be matching at a higher rate, or straight out HAVE MORE PEOPLE, in every fellowship but oncology. Oncology is the biggest international graduate field in medicine.

A few DO like NYCOM have 300 seats...but really holy crap, SGU graduates 800-900?! With carib level attrition that means they take well over 1100 people per class!! How the hell does anyone learn anything with that many class mates?? Anatomy lab must absolutely suck; there's no way they have enough cadavers for those kinds of numbers. Frankly, I find it funny that this thread exists at all.

Originally Posted by twist25

i get that, my point was looking into competitive residencies and later on with fellowships like GI, allergy/immunology, Cardio ... it seems that the MD route (even if it is going to SGU) is better than the DO route (something like KCUMB)

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2011/ResidP...=PGY1&Count=-1

vs .

http://www.kcumb.edu/acad3/PDF/2011M...yStateSite.pdf

No doubt that the kcumb list is pretty impressive and it is a great school, but when compared to SGU's list with places like hopkins on there, that makes me question the obvious choice of KCUMB>SGU.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddatasms2012.pdf
for most fellowships it seems that FMGs such as SGU grads have same match rate, if not a higher match rate.

You will get a better education if you go to KCUMB simply looking at the # of students they admit and not to mention the astounding # they let go after a little whil). This is not to say that you would not have to work your ass off at either place, but I honestly think KCUMB gives you the best set of resources to be a successful medical student, and not just a number.

Originally Posted by Bones DO

A few DO like NYCOM have 300 seats...but really holy crap, SGU graduates 800-900?! With carib level attrition that means they take well over 1100 people per class!! How the hell does anyone learn anything with that many class mates?? Anatomy lab must absolutely suck; there's no way they have enough cadavers for those kinds of numbers. Frankly, I find it funny that this thread exists at all.

Yup. They enroll three times a year, with three classes a year of 300-400 each.

Originally Posted by twist25

i get that, my point was looking into competitive residencies and later on with fellowships like GI, allergy/immunology, Cardio ... it seems that the MD route (even if it is going to SGU) is better than the DO route (something like KCUMB)

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2011/ResidP...=PGY1&Count=-1

vs .

http://www.kcumb.edu/acad3/PDF/2011M...yStateSite.pdf

No doubt that the kcumb list is pretty impressive and it is a great school, but when compared to SGU's list with places like hopkins on there, that makes me question the obvious choice of KCUMB>SGU.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddatasms2012.pdf
for most fellowships it seems that FMGs such as SGU grads have same match rate, if not a higher match rate.

(1) Where are you seeing Hopkins? I didn't see anyone matching Hopkins from your link on SGU.

(2) Since when is Hopkins anything more impressive than allo plastic surgery, which is on KCUMB's list? And you want to say that Hopkins is also more impressive than Mayo? The year before last, a DO student from AZCOM matched Mayo derm. When was the last time an SGU student matched Mayo derm?

(3) School has nothing to do with fellowship. Fellowship is about residency performance and connections.

(4) Number 3 is why pre-meds shouldn't enter into these kinds of debates.

Originally Posted by Mass Effect

(1) Where are you seeing Hopkins? I didn't see anyone matching Hopkins from your link on SGU.

(2) Since when is Hopkins anything more impressive than allo plastic surgery, which is on KCUMB's list? And you want to say that Hopkins is also more impressive than Mayo? The year before last, a DO student from AZCOM matched Mayo derm. When was the last time an SGU student matched Mayo derm?

(3) School has nothing to do with fellowship. Fellowship is about residency performance and connections.

(4) Number 3 is why pre-meds shouldn't enter into these kinds of debates.

p'zownd


(I cant believe im referencing this)

Originally Posted by DocEspana

p'zownd


(I cant believe im referencing this)

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2011/ResidP...pkins&count=-1
SGU grads at hopkins for PGY-5 ... thats what i meant.

School definitely does matter especially if its the difference between MD and DO...some fellowship program directors still do have that bias.

Originally Posted by twist25

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2011/ResidP...pkins&count=-1
SGU grads at hopkins for PGY-5 ... thats what i meant.

School definitely does matter especially if its the difference between MD and DO...some fellowship program directors still do have that bias.

eeeeexcept the person you're talking about was dropped from the diagnostic radiology program (go check hopkins website for the 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 programs, when according to SGU he was in their diagnostic radiology program. He was a PGY-2 then dropped from the program in 2009) and put into Nuclear Medicine, which is *not* a fellowship in his case. Its a regular PGY-1 Residency at Hopkins. And if you're doing it as a residency, you're basically the red-headed stepchild everyone makes fun of.

Nuclear medicine is more or less unmarketable since all modern radiology residencies teach PET and SPECT readings, its been years since NM was a fellowship worth taking, thus why they switched it to a residency lately. ABNM stants for american board of no marketability.

So if the example you really rely on is a guy who was *dropped* from his program into a weaker program... you have no legs to stand on.

Originally Posted by DocEspana

eeeeexcept the person you're talking about was dropped from the diagnostic radiology program (go check hopkins website for the 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 programs, when according to SGU he was in their diagnostic radiology program. He was a PGY-2 then dropped from the program in 2009) and put into Nuclear Medicine, which is *not* a fellowship in his case. Its a regular PGY-1 Residency at Hopkins. And if you're doing it as a residency, you're basically the red-headed stepchild everyone makes fun of.

Nuclear medicine is more or less unmarketable since all modern radiology residencies teach PET and SPECT readings, its been years since NM was a fellowship worth taking, thus why they switched it to a residency lately. ABNM stants for american board of no marketability.

So if the example you really rely on is a guy who was *dropped* from his program into a weaker program... you have no legs to stand on.

p'zownd.


lol... I had to.

Originally Posted by ineed2stpsmurfn

p'zownd.


lol... I had to.

you're welcome

Originally Posted by twist25

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2011/ResidP...pkins&count=-1
SGU grads at hopkins for PGY-5 ... thats what i meant.

School definitely does matter especially if its the difference between MD and DO...some fellowship program directors still do have that bias.

And you know this from your extensive research into match lists? Or from you experience on the interview trail? Do yourself a massive favor and look at that list again. I see a whole lot of FP, community IM, community peds, ect. But keep drinking that carribean Koolaid that " hay we had a radiology match 5 years ago look we are so awsome!"
PLEASE go to SGU because you obviously feel that md is worth much more than actually being employed. Your not gonna be happy being "just" a DO

Kcumb

KCUMB for sure

:/

Originally Posted by twist25

So I don't mean to start the DO vs Caribbean war but I just wanted to know which school would be better to go to if I'm looking at obtaining a non-primary care residency? And why?

Thanks for all the help!

I highly recommend against caribbean for non-primary care specialties. My reasoning, the match rates are clearly stacked against you. People go to the caribbean for various reasons. Some go because they did not get into a difficult to get into canadian school, but had very high academic credentials. Others had a great application with a stellar undergraduate gpa, but had something that did not set well with admissions, and they maybe inpatiantely decided to go to the caribbean. Most caribbean students had around a 3.0 or slightly lower gpa with aorund a 30 or maybe a bit below MCAT. If this sounds like the student you are, you can bet that most likely you would be a candidate for IM or family practice at best. Does caribbean and family practice nessesarily equate to no money to pay of student lone debt? No. Look up marijuana doctors, if you believe in this, one doctor on CNBC claimed he made 1M in a cash practice in the first year in colorado. Dr. Patel of california is another example. I would say if you are the sort of person that likes less stress, going osteopathic will equate to this given the goal of a specialty other than family practice, like surgery, anesthesiology, or neurology. Being a US doctor will help you out end of story. If you have a lot of connections, you could be OK with caribbean. E.G. I have seen a guy in Ohio whos father is a surgen become a plastic surgeon going to AUC, and another guy whos dad is a doctor in New York get a residency at Columbia. Use your best judgement.

Originally Posted by Poisson

I highly recommend against caribbean for non-primary care specialties. My reasoning, the match rates are clearly stacked against you. People go to the caribbean for various reasons. Some go because they did not get into a difficult to get into canadian school, but had very high academic credentials. Others had a great application with a stellar undergraduate gpa, but had something that did not set well with admissions, and they maybe inpatiantely decided to go to the caribbean. Most caribbean students had around a 3.0 or slightly lower gpa with aorund a 30 or maybe a bit below MCAT. If this sounds like the student you are, you can bet that most likely you would be a candidate for IM or family practice at best. Does caribbean and family practice nessesarily equate to no money to pay of student lone debt? No. Look up marijuana doctors, if you believe in this, one doctor on CNBC claimed he made 1M in a cash practice in the first year in colorado. Dr. Patel of california is another example. I would say if you are the sort of person that likes less stress, going osteopathic will equate to this given the goal of a specialty other than family practice, like surgery, anesthesiology, or neurology. Being a US doctor will help you out end of story. If you have a lot of connections, you could be OK with caribbean. E.G. I have seen a guy in Ohio whos father is a surgen become a plastic surgeon going to AUC, and another guy whos dad is a doctor in New York get a residency at Columbia. Use your best judgement.

Not too sure about those numbers...if someone with those numbers goes carib, well...then I don't know. Because those numbers tell me the person is too smart to make the mistake of going carib (with said numbers); but if the person went to the carib (with those numbers) that would mean their analytic skills weren't strong enough for those numbers...which means the person who earns the grades is too smart to make the mistake he made...which is causing my head to spin....

But seriously, I think those numbers are a bit high.

that cannot be right... if most people had a 30 or a little lower mcat you would expect the average mcat of admissions to be higher. the average carib student has a 3.0 gpa (some highter... but also some lower) and an mcat in the high teens low 20s. AUC reports 7s for average on each section and st george reports 21 total on a quick google search..... if 21 is the average you have to suspect that a few 16s snuck in there