"Sell out" MDs

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I occasionally hear people speak of "sell out MDs". I once asked my cousin if he was referring to those in private practices and he replied that it more that referred to those leaving research and practicing altogether. The only thing I can think of is perhaps working for a pharmaceutical company.

So I guess my question is, what is he talking about? What other careers require an MD and would categorize as "selling out"? Aside of academic medicine and practicing, what other careers would benefit from an MD at all?

medical malpractice trial lawyers, snake oil salesmen, dermatologists, etc.

Clinical trial consulting

Originally Posted by flatearth22

medical malpractice trial lawyers, snake oil salesmen, dermatologists, etc.

Gupta, Oz, ect

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

Gupta, Oz, ect

First thing I thought when I read this thread.

There are no sellout MDs. They paid their way through med school with loans and/or their own money. They don't owe anyone anything and can use their degrees however they see fit. If in the US the government funded med school then we could make the argument that they were selling out by not practicing. But seeing as each individual pays their own way through, they can do whatever they want with the degree including going on TV, working in malpractice and doing consulting.

who do you think pays for residency?

Also, med school tuitions generally don't fully cover the total cost of educating a medical student.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9075424/

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

Gupta, Oz, ect

Oz definitely! Gupta, not sure; since he does more journalism rather then promoting crappy products and healing practices.

Originally Posted by pooghe

There are no sellout MDs. They paid their way through med school with loans and/or their own money. They don't owe anyone anything and can use their degrees however they see fit. If in the US the government funded med school then we could make the argument that they were selling out by not practicing. But seeing as each individual pays their own way through, they can do whatever they want with the degree including going on TV, working in malpractice and doing consulting.

I tend to agree with this statement. We all have to go through 4 years of medical school, 3+ years of residency, etc., often during our "prime" and accruing significant financial debt in the process. After working through all that, I think you've earned the right to use your degree as you see fit. I can see why people would consider Dr. Oz to be a "sellout," but there's a need for doctors like him as well, those who reach out to a large audience, even if his cause is not as altruistic as we imagine a doctor's should be.

There's is getting paid to use your degree and getting paid to tout the party line of whoever is paying you using your degree as a speaking platform. One of these is selling out.

The Doctors TV Show.

Did they make the Paragon or Renegade choice?

Anyone who joins the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.
Stanislaw Burzynski
Mark Geier
Jay Gordon
Joesph Mercola

Those that work for insurance companies and spend their days reviewing and denying claims?

Those who train and "supervise" midlevels. Also, hired gun whore "expert" witnesses.

A bunch of scalawags who should have their licenses revoked.

I have no problem with anybody getting as much as they can, when they can and as fast as they can so long as whatever they are doing is legal. Even if I don't agree with what you are doing, this is a country founded on ambition and I'm never going to hold it against somebody for getting as far ahead in life as they possibly can. I may not LIKE them or what they do, but I'll never fault anyone for making more money than me.

You think Dr. Oz is a sell out? You just plain don't like him? Neither do I, and I'm sure he'll be crying about our opinion of him all the way to the bank.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

Those that work for insurance companies and spend their days reviewing and denying claims?

Would you rather someone less qualified deny their claims? Or does the very thought of denying claims just break your whittle heart?

Originally Posted by BA11

Would you rather someone less qualified deny their claims? Or does the very thought of denying claims just break your whittle heart?

I think I saw the contrails of Lizzy's point as it flew right over your whittle head.

Applicants who say they are going to practice rural medicine in their PS and on the interview trail, but change their minds after an acceptance.

My father worked as one of these expert witnesses. He has a family to provide for, 3 kids to put through college, etc etc. he also was working in primary care at the time in a private practice with 3,000 + patients. Is he a sell out? It's easy to cry about people who've figured out a way to make an extra buck and it's easy to throw out judgments without knowing almost any of the story. This goes for every profession, but doctors for sure seem to have a higher moral standard to live up too in order to avoid condemnation.

Originally Posted by alerk323

My father worked as one of these expert witnesses. He has a family to provide for, 3 kids to put through college, etc etc. he also was working in primary care at the time in a private practice with 3,000 + patients. Is he a sell out? It's easy to cry about people who've figured out a way to make an extra buck and it's easy to throw out judgments without knowing almost any of the story. This goes for every profession, but doctors for sure seem to have a higher moral standard to live up too in order to avoid condemnation.

Many of these "expert" witnesses give whatever opinion the lawyer hiring them wants, regardless of whether it has any basis in medical practice or scientific fact. Just as there are plenty cases where a suit against a doctor has merit, there are witnesses who give their honest opinion about a case without (consciously) altering it to fit their (potential) employer's viewpoint.

If your father was/is an expert witness who based/s all of his testimony on the facts of the case, standard of care, and real medical science, standing by that opinion even if the attorney who approaches him about testifying refuses to hire him because it isn't the story the attorney wants, he is certainly not deserving of condemnation.

If he was the hired gun type, willing to say anything to get paid (as far too many expert witness physicians are), he is absolutely deserving of condemnation and should lose his license.

Originally Posted by BA11

You think Dr. Oz is a sell out? You just plain don't like him? Neither do I, and I'm sure he'll be crying about our opinion of him all the way to the bank.

He's not a sell out because he's on TV, he's a sell out for promoting reiki and faith healing.

yes, I agree, and I think if he were doing that, or anyone, it would be breaking the law in some sort of way. (I'm not sure exactly the details but perjury seems a possibility). Regardless, I don't think people are arguing that doctors acting illegally should be condemned. The problem is a lot of people paint with a very large brush. I would expect that most expert witnesses act according to the standards you described, rather than as a "hired gun".

Originally Posted by kami333

He's not a sell out because he's on TV, he's a sell out for promoting reiki and faith healing.

Tapping into ley lines to channel the power of our spirit animals to throw fireballs is a perfectly legitimate form of healomancy.

Originally Posted by eHombre

Also, med school tuitions generally don't fully cover the total cost of educating a medical student.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9075424/

That is one of the greatest medical education lies ever told. Well, other than "residents actually cost the hospital money."

Originally Posted by alerk323

My father worked as one of these expert witnesses. He has a family to provide for, 3 kids to put through college, etc etc. he also was working in primary care at the time in a private practice with 3,000 + patients. Is he a sell out? It's easy to cry about people who've figured out a way to make an extra buck and it's easy to throw out judgments without knowing almost any of the story. This goes for every profession, but doctors for sure seem to have a higher moral standard to live up too in order to avoid condemnation.

While I respect your father's plight, its not well respected in the medical community to stab your peers in the back. He got the bills paid; now you get to apply to medical school. However, this reeks of bad juju.

Their are MD's who work in movies/TV/books that I don't consider sellouts. Michael Crichton for instance

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

Gupta, Oz, ect

A bet there are very few people on this forum that would turn down multi-million dollar contracts to host TV shows talking about medicine. I can't hate a man for getting that cheese

Originally Posted by MT Headed

Applicants who say they are going to practice rural medicine in their PS and on the interview trail, but change their minds after an acceptance.

Laughed out loud

Hey man, we are all growing, and our interests change. Our bodies change, our needs change, the people we want to see and the surroundings we want change. Plus, you mentioned you would have gone rural med if the WICHE schools showed you more love, so it's all fair.

Plus, NOLA is beautiful. I loved your PS BTW.

Not feeling Chicago?

Why are you guys hating on Dr. Gupta? He's done some great work man

Ron Paul!

Originally Posted by MT Headed

Applicants who say they are going to practice rural medicine in their PS and on the interview trail, but change their minds after an acceptance.

Or those who actually NEVER really intended to do so from the beginning. Just used it as a campaign to get into medical school.

Originally Posted by MOMSBUSYDAZE

Or those who actually NEVER really intended to do so from the beginning. Just used it as a campaign to get into medical school.

You have to play the game. There's a good probability what you say at the beginning of medical school will change anyway.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

Those that work for insurance companies and spend their days reviewing and denying claims?

One of the doctors I shadowed does this. I guess I won't be mentioning this in my application

Originally Posted by ajc28

Ron Paul!

Get out.




Kidding. Reason?

Originally Posted by Socrates25

Those who... "supervise" midlevels...

A bunch of scalawags who should have their licenses revoked.

I guess this means that I should get my license revoked.

Originally Posted by Bacchus

While I respect your father's plight, its not well respected in the medical community to stab your peers in the back. He got the bills paid; now you get to apply to medical school. However, this reeks of bad juju.

A good example of the general ignorance that seems to surround the subject, whether it be your own, or "the medical community's" that you refer to.

If you abide by all of your professional ethics and what not, it's a very legitimate service. Doctors make mistakes that they should be held accountable for, a good expert witness will give a completely objective view of the facts and let the legal system work it's magic. While there are a lot of frivolous malpractice suits, it is the expert witness's job to help differentiate between legitimate issues and frivolous ones. Is that stabbing a peer in the back if, in turns out, the doctor was indeed negligent?

Originally Posted by alerk323

A good example of the general ignorance that seems to surround the subject, whether it be your own, or "the medical community's" that you refer to.

If you abide by all of your professional ethics and what not, it's a very legitimate service. Doctors make mistakes that they should be held accountable for, a good expert witness will give a completely objective view of the facts and let the legal system work it's magic. While there are a lot of frivolous malpractice suits, it is the expert witness's job to help differentiate between legitimate issues and frivolous ones. Is that stabbing a peer in the back if, in turns out, the doctor was indeed negligent?

The defendant isn't going to say "Hey, in my professional opinion, this suit has no merit." The defendant's witnesses are selected to win the case, no matter what degree of negligence doesn't exist on the plaintiff's behalf.

Originally Posted by Bacchus

The defendant isn't going to say "Hey, in my professional opinion, this suit has no merit." The defendant's witnesses are selected to win the case, no matter what degree of negligence doesn't exist on the plaintiff's behalf.

I'm not sure how it works once in court itself. But my dad has said that for the cases that usually come across his desk he says exactly that, but obviously with way more specifics. In fact, he's only been in court maybe 3 or 4 times. Very few cases go to court. so no, this is not how it works at all and is another good example of how most people just kinda brush it off as immoral while no knowing very little about the actual process. I expect that if the expert says that the doctor is innocent, he wouldn't call on him in court. Than again, there are two sides and both usually utilize experts, at least for research and I know at least of a couple times when he has been called in as a witness to defend the doctor.

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

Gupta, Oz, ect

Dr. Oz call out battle rap:



oh, I'll add concierge docs!

Originally Posted by Bacchus

You have to play the game. There's a good probability what you say at the beginning of medical school will change anyway.

****, I'd fart right in Jesus's face if it meant admission to med school.

Originally Posted by notbobtrustme

****, I'd fart right in Jesus's face if it meant admission to med school.

Lol

Originally Posted by kami333

Anyone who joins the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.
Stanislaw Burzynski
Mark Geier
Jay Gordon
Joesph Mercola

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons is a group of physicians that opposes evidence-based medicine and promotes views such as that the FDA is unconstitutional, HIV doesn't cause AIDS, and illegal immigrants carry leprosy.

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

Their are MD's who work in movies/TV/books that I don't consider sellouts. Michael Crichton for instance

I did not know this. The creator of jurassic park... and many novels a harvard md
respect++

Originally Posted by BeanDip4All

Dr. Oz call out battle rap:



oh, I'll add concierge docs!

Thanks for this! Awesome

Originally Posted by Microshaft

I did not know this. The creator of jurassic park... and many novels a harvard md
respect++

Created ER too

How about Dr. Murray. Wouldn't that be an MD selling out?

Originally Posted by cincincyreds

How about Dr. Murray. Wouldn't that be an MD selling out?

the natural medicine guy or the one who was found guilty in the MJ death trial?