recreational drug use in psychology

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Hi everyone,

I am applying to clinical psychology programs this year and I have found it this forum to be pretty helpful. I do have one question that I haven't seen yet. I smoke marijuana recreationally, and I'm wondering if I will ever be tested for it, or if it could cause problems. I'm a responsible user, and have never had it interfere with any obligations in my life, so I don't think it would actually effect my professional career, unless I get tested and punished. I'm planning on pursuing clinical practice, rather than academia, but I don't know what setting (private practice, VA, etc.). So my question is, am I likely to get tested at some point? Practicum, internship, post-doc, or "real" practice? If I am, then I'll stop, because this is more important, but I'd prefer being able to keep up my habit.

P.S. I understand that some people don't like any drug use at all. I respect that position, and I also that people respect my choice as well. I don't drink, but I do like to smoke marijuana, and I am comfortable with my choice.

In my lab (academic med center), RAs are drug-tested per official hospital policy. People who test positive for anything are not allowed to work there - excepting prescribed medications of course. When I arrived, grad students were not drug tested but I believe this has recently changed. I don't know what would happen if an accepted grad student tested positive upon arriving, but I imagine it could get ugly.

I think in a traditional psych department this is less likely to happen, but I can't say for sure.

I was drug tested and had to have a background check before I started at my practica sites. I was told no additional testing is done unless they suspect something, though you consent to be tested as needed. It isn't my thing so I didn't much worry, but I know others who were social users and planned accordingly.

You should ecxpect to be drug tested if you appply for practicum or clinical positions in almost any type health care service centers these days. I have been tested at every hospital have worked at, and every practicum I've had in grad school, except the university clinic. The VA does random screens in addition to initial employment screens. This is true for practicum students as well. I would encourage you to quit for no other reason than that it is terrible for your lungs. I would encourage you to take up wine instead. A glass per day is healthy and the alcohol isnt that bad of a bonus either...

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Is it safe to assume drug tests are urine based (rather than hair, which tests a longer period of time)?

Originally Posted by MLevin

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Is it safe to assume drug tests are urine based (rather than hair, which tests a longer period of time)?

Considering the cost difference between the two, I think a urinalysis is probably the most likely method.

Thats my experiecne as well, however is till urge you to look more closely at the issue and considering moving past that "phase" of your life.

Originally Posted by erg923

Thats my experiecne as well, however is till urge you to look more closely at the issue and considering moving past that "phase" of your life.

I appreciate your concern, but I am quite comfortable with my use. I don't think it's fair to assume there is an issue. I don't have a problem giving it up for a career I love, but I would prefer to have both.

For what it's worth, I haven't been drug tested while at school, working in an outpatient clinic, and working at a VA. So far the background checks have all been paper and reference based. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be surprised if most psych students get tested at some point during their training tenures.

Originally Posted by KillerDiller

For what it's worth, I haven't been drug tested while at school, working in an outpatient clinic, and working at a VA. So far the background checks have all been paper and reference based. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be surprised if most psych students get tested at some point during their training tenures.

I was surprised that the VA didn't drug test us....I figured being a gov't employee and whatnot.

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

I was surprised that the VA didn't drug test us....I figured being a gov't employee and whatnot.

Yeah, I didn't really think much about it, but now that it comes up it is a little surprising.

Originally Posted by MLevin

Hi everyone,

I am applying to clinical psychology programs this year and I have found it this forum to be pretty helpful. I do have one question that I haven't seen yet. I smoke marijuana recreationally, and I'm wondering if I will ever be tested for it, or if it could cause problems. I'm a responsible user, and have never had it interfere with any obligations in my life, so I don't think it would actually effect my professional career, unless I get tested and punished. I'm planning on pursuing clinical practice, rather than academia, but I don't know what setting (private practice, VA, etc.). So my question is, am I likely to get tested at some point? Practicum, internship, post-doc, or "real" practice? If I am, then I'll stop, because this is more important, but I'd prefer being able to keep up my habit.

P.S. I understand that some people don't like any drug use at all. I respect that position, and I also that people respect my choice as well. I don't drink, but I do like to smoke marijuana, and I am comfortable with my choice.

I don't have a problem with what you are doing but... just be careful, if you get busted having to disclose a conviction won't be helpful. I think that even posting under an alias on an Internet forum isn't really bright... in the future, should you wish to discuss things that you are legally not supposed to be doing, you should phrase it as a hypothetical.

e.g. My friend is a recreational marijuana user and I am concerned about his future because he is getting ready to apply to clinical psychology programs, do you think that these programs will drug test him prior to admission etc...

Just trying to protect your interests.

Mark

I have also been tested before doing two externships in hospital settings. I've never been tested through my grad school, training clinic, or a private practice externship. A know a few people who have continued to smoke marijuana throughout graduate school, but I don't know what they did in terms of stopping for periods of time before a potential upcoming drug test.

It was rapant it my program when we came in our first year. I think left over from the undergrad days. But to my knowledge and observation, most if not all have stopped entirely at this point.

That weird about the VA though...i just assumed it was uniform nationally. I had to take one before a started my prac and had tro sign a form informing me of random screenings and where to go and what to do should I be selected for one.

I think people need to relax a bit.

As a non-marajuana user let me just say this:

There are a lot of things worse than recreational use of marijuana, such as the consumption of multiple alcoholic drinks per day or regular ciggerette smoking. For that matter, poor coping skills (and, relatedly, the unabashed neuroticism I regularly see amongst my graduate colleagues) are far worse for ones health and well being than recreational use of weed. I personally think many of my colleagues would be far better off if they partook in some substance recreationally.

Also, for what its worth - I have had practicum in two community clinics and a public school setting and have not personally been drug tested.

Best of luck!

Originally Posted by Markp

I don't have a problem with what you are doing but... just be careful, if you get busted having to disclose a conviction won't be helpful. I think that even posting under an alias on an Internet forum isn't really bright... in the future, should you wish to discuss things that you are legally not supposed to be doing, you should phrase it as a hypothetical.

e.g. My friend is a recreational marijuana user and I am concerned about his future because he is getting ready to apply to clinical psychology programs, do you think that these programs will drug test him prior to admission etc...

Just trying to protect your interests.

Mark

I have not been tested at any sites. I did my internship at a VA and we did get a "30 day notice" letter as part of our new hire paperwork, but no actual test. It is supposed to be random. I also have spent a lot of time working in an academic hospital, including for post-doc. They also have drug testing, but I did not have to have it. I did have a criminal background check though.

I've been drug tested at my last practicum in an outpatient hospital setting, so I'd be careful to check on that. Good luck!

My wife will be a PhD psychology practica student next year and we live in California. she has a neuromuscular condition which she uses marijuana for. She smokes it at night and when she is home from work/study and I am concerned that the VA and any other places she would go in health fields will not accept this issue. I recommended that she tell her supervisor and have him help her out but now I am not sure. What do people think?

I'm a responsible user,

Impossible.

If you buy it from someone, you are supporting the drug trade. Take a gander at the violence associated with it. You are funding it. Unethical.

If you grow it yourself, you are committing a felony.

Either way, the consequences for getting caught are problematic for your career. The willingness to take the risk suggests you have a problem.

. .. and as a general comment, I think it should be legal. People want to f themselves up, that's their business. But, it's not and, as a consequence of the context of acquisition and the associated risks of using, it's not very intelligent nor socially aware behavior. On that basis, I do not respect your choice.

I agree with what everyone has said. I also want to add that you need to be careful about your peers/co-workers discovering your use. Personal opinion aside, marijuana use is still considered illegal. I have worked at all forensic practicum sites, and there is an understanding that marijuana use is grounds for automatic termination (I believe this is a standard practice across all types of sites). A rumor had started that one of my co-workers was smoking marijuana, and she was given a random drug test on the spot (no 30 day warning is required).

Originally Posted by student6345

My wife will be a PhD psychology practica student next year and we live in California. she has a neuromuscular condition which she uses marijuana for. She smokes it at night and when she is home from work/study and I am concerned that the VA and any other places she would go in health fields will not accept this issue. I recommended that she tell her supervisor and have him help her out but now I am not sure. What do people think?

It's a state law. It does not trump federal drug laws. And your wife will be working in a federal facility.

Originally Posted by student6345

My wife will be a PhD psychology practica student next year and we live in California. she has a neuromuscular condition which she uses marijuana for. She smokes it at night and when she is home from work/study and I am concerned that the VA and any other places she would go in health fields will not accept this issue. I recommended that she tell her supervisor and have him help her out but now I am not sure. What do people think?

That's a good question. Someone took notes from Jon Snow!

Originally Posted by Markp

I think that even posting under an alias on an Internet forum isn't really bright... in the future, should you wish to discuss things that you are legally not supposed to be doing, you should phrase it as a hypothetical.

e.g. My friend is a recreational marijuana user and I am concerned about his future because he is getting ready to apply to clinical psychology programs, do you think that these programs will drug test him prior to admission etc...

Just trying to protect your interests.

Mark

Originally Posted by student6345

My wife will be a PhD psychology practica student next year and we live in California. she has a neuromuscular condition which she uses marijuana for. She smokes it at night and when she is home from work/study and I am concerned that the VA and any other places she would go in health fields will not accept this issue. I recommended that she tell her supervisor and have him help her out but now I am not sure. What do people think?

Originally Posted by zzzz2

That's a good question. Someone took notes from Jon Snow!

You mean Markp.

I was just wondering about this. Thanks for starting this thread! (not a regular user, though pro-green)

Originally Posted by Jon Snow

Impossible.

If you buy it from someone, you are supporting the drug trade. Take a gander at the violence associated with it. You are funding it. Unethical.

If you grow it yourself, you are committing a felony.

Either way, the consequences for getting caught are problematic for your career. The willingness to take the risk suggests you have a problem.

. .. and as a general comment, I think it should be legal. People want to f themselves up, that's their business. But, it's not and, as a consequence of the context of acquisition and the associated risks of using, it's not very intelligent nor socially aware behavior. On that basis, I do not respect your choice.

I second this, especially on what's occurring with drug cartel violence in South American countries, and Mexico.

Only cases I've seen testing done so far was in a hospital setting. I'd imagine testing is done more in healthcare related settings.

Another consideration to keep in mind is that using substances that are illegal (regardless of whether the law makes sense) or DUI arrests can lead (despite all your best intentions) to circumstances that you may be required to report on both the AAPI application internship and/or applications for specific sites. Some internship sites will not even consider you if there are reportable offenses on your AAPI and not reporting but then having failure to disclose discovered at the time of a security/employment screening could have really dire consequences professionally. Using illegal substances stops being "recreational" when you get on the professional escalator and becomes a discretionary risk you manage. Individual tolerance for risk varies and institutional tolerance may be zero.

I don't use it myself. I do think that many people too easily disregard the implications of participating in the drug trade, which is highly detrimental to many parts of the world.
However, I have no moral objections to pot use itself, just to give you a context for my answer:

I've never been drug tested. Not when working at the VA, not by my graduate program, and not for a practicum placement. I believe that, for each of those clinical settings, I signed an agreement stating that I could be tested for any reason, and without notice. Colleagues have signed similar agreements with their practicum sites, and a few had to schedule drug testing before they could actually be approved to start at their sites (a few of them just stopped smoking for a few weeks in advance), but none have been tested randomly. So based only on my experience, I would conclude that the odds of actually being tested without warning are small. The consequences of being tested and coming up positive would be pretty awful, of course, but I haven't heard of it happening to anyone here.

Being arrested for a drug-related offense is probably even less likely, but just thinking about the potential consequences is enough to make me a bit anxious, and I don't even smoke! Competition for internship slots is bad enough as it is, and having to disclose a recent arrest is enough to torpedo your application for a lot of sites. It's unfortunate that something like being caught smoking pot could have such an impact on your ability to finish your training, but that's the reality.

Originally Posted by FreudianSlipper

Our field has a bit of a reputation for pot use.

Um, I think that's just your experience/impression.

Anyway, do we think any of the answers here would be different if the OP said: "I like to get ****faced (recreationally) a few times per week. I'd like to continue to do this throughout grad school. Is this ok?"

Would any of us REALLY think there is nothing wrong with this, so long as the person doesnt get a PI or a DUI on their record?

I agree with others who emphasize the illegal nature of smoking weed. It doesn't matter if it's a low-harm (or even harmless) substance, if it has medical benefits, etc. It is illegal and that is why testing occurs and that is why it can completely screw up your life and career if you take part in using it. I also believe that it doesn't make a lot of sense that it is illegal, but it is. Go work in a substance abuse setting and see how a felony possession charge can completely f*** up your life.

I also think the social and political considerations are very compelling.

I do not think they are compelling.

Originally Posted by Jon Snow

Impossible.

If you buy it from someone, you are supporting the drug trade. Take a gander at the violence associated with it. You are funding it. Unethical.

If you grow it yourself, you are committing a felony.

Either way, the consequences for getting caught are problematic for your career. The willingness to take the risk suggests you have a problem.

. .. and as a general comment, I think it should be legal. People want to f themselves up, that's their business. But, it's not and, as a consequence of the context of acquisition and the associated risks of using, it's not very intelligent nor socially aware behavior. On that basis, I do not respect your choice.

I would also avoid buying governement bonds or paying interest on your student loans, as part of those proceeds fund the enforcement of marijuana prohibition, which prohibition incentivizes and makes more violent the cartel activities.

Not that I would ever even consider consuming illegal substances (as I am pro America), but it seems like some of the posters here would benefit from a healthy dose of green.

I would also avoid buying governement bonds or paying interest on your student loans, as part of those proceeds fund the enforcement of marijuana prohibition, which prohibition incentivizes and makes more violent the cartel activities.

Not that I would ever even consider consuming illegal substances (as I am pro America), but it seems like some of the posters here would benefit from a healthy dose of green/

We have mechanisms in place to deal with politics. If you don't like drug prohibitions, vote for libertarians. Drug user = egocentric thinker. The OP isn't contemplating the consequences of his actions outside of his own high.

Originally Posted by Jon Snow

We have mechanisms in place to deal with politics. If you don't like drug prohibitions, vote for libertarians. Drug user = egocentric thinker. The OP isn't contemplating the consequences of his actions outside of his own high.

I commend you on your ability to decode and assess motivation based on a couple of anonymous posts.

From my work in corrections, physicians, nurses, LPC, and yes psychologist come visit us occassionally. Many other professional visit us too such as Lawyers, Stock Brokers, OT, Parole Officers, Police and Correctional Officers, and Psychiatrist. Most common charge is prescription fraud for Vicoden, Xanax, and morphine-opiate based medications by medical professionals. We also see professionals who have committed murders, sexaully abused children, aggravated assaults and many other non drug related charges. We also have a good number of college students with possession of marijuana charges who may sit in jail for six months waiting for trial. It is very difficult to attend class when you are sitting in jail. They have to drop out that semester and normally they have to meet with their advisor about their progress. My guess is that most clinical psychology programs would put you on probation or dismiss you from the program, if you have a felony drug conviction. One Judge received a DWI but was high on Vicoden. You can receive a DWI or DUI if you are high on marijuana. You get a DWI or a DUI, your insurance for your automobile premium triples as you are in a High Risk group now. The judge gets to wear a leg monitor now and it is hard to hide a leg monitor on your job. Do you want to wear a leg monitor? Most of them have means to make bond but for major charges it is difficult to bond out and for some charges there is no bond. Judges, DA, and licensure boards are not very forgiving to drug abuse (prescription or illegal) especially by professional with a license for medical practice or psychology practice.

Most of us in our youth made errors in judgment but if you are a MD, PhD, etc... you are not allowed to make these errors. Denial and rationalization are common for people who use and abuse drugs. Basically, people have been forced to change careers as licensing boards main responsibility is to protect the public and if you have a felony and prison time you are going to struggle with licensure. Pharmacist, Nurses, and MD have lost their license to practice and basically their career. One MD was able to have a restricted license working in a substance abuse State funded program with ongoing close supervision, but another had his license revoked and last I heard he was working as a Tow Truck Driver for repossed auto companies. Wife, kids, home--are all gone. You get a drug conviction and your life changes ten fold, even if it is "only" marijuana.

The Risk is not worth the cost. Additionally, it may be worth your while to talk with a substance abuse counselor and maybe even do some volunteer work or practicum in a substance abuse program to have first hand knowledge of the severity of drug abuse and dependence and how it changes individuals lives. It is an epidemic and you will find nurses, pharmacist, psychologists, LPC and MD in these programs via court ordered drug treatment. Believe me, if you can leave marijuana alone, go that direction as it is not worth the cost.

Originally Posted by Zebra F701

I commend you on your ability to decode and assess motivation based on a couple of anonymous posts.

Huh?! He didnt decode anything. Its there plain as day in the OPs own words. I'd like to continue to get high so long as I don't get caught, right? How else could that question be interpreted?

If you want to "decode" something, I would look at the number of time "I" or "I want" was used in the post and compare it with the number of times he/she asked about the "effect of my use on..."(insert something here). You don't think that telling of....something?

Originally Posted by erg923

Huh?! He didnt decode anything. Its there plain as day in the OPs own words. I'd like to continue to get high so long as I don't get caught, right? How else could that question be interpreted?

If you want to "decode" something, I would look at the number of time "I" or "I want" was used in the post and compare it with the number of times he/she asked about the "effect of my use on..."(insert something here). You don't think that telling of....something?

I'm just arguing for a little more nuance and a little more understanding on behalf of Mr. Snow.

I commend you on your ability to decode and assess motivation based on a couple of anonymous posts.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Jon Snow

Thanks!

Originally Posted by erg923

Um, I think that's just your experience/impression.

Anyway, do we think any of the answers here would be different if the OP said: "I like to get ****faced (recreationally) a few times per week. I'd like to continue to do this throughout grad school. Is this ok?"

Would any of us REALLY think there is nothing wrong with this, so long as the person doesnt get a PI or a DUI on their record?

Well, now this is a good question. I've seen professors from my training program buzzed/a little drunk/perhaps even more than that before. Part of the transition from student-professional involved learning to manage multiple relationships and situations like this.

Because recreational alcohol use (even drunkenness to a point) is legal, do we think about it differently? Similar ethical questions emerge, although not necessarily for the drug trade. That particular argument I think is somewhat dangerous - it is a slippery slope if you are going to project ethics too far indirectly. If you use that logic for other things, then pyschologists won't be able to wear Nikes or use Google at some point.

Originally Posted by Pragma

Well, now this is a good question. I've seen professors from my training program buzzed/a little drunk/perhaps even more than that before. Part of the transition from student-professional involved learning to manage multiple relationships and situations like this.

Because recreational alcohol use (even drunkenness to a point) is legal, do we think about it differently? Similar ethical questions emerge, although not necessarily for the drug trade. That particular argument I think is somewhat dangerous - it is a slippery slope if you are going to project ethics too far indirectly. If you use that logic for other things, then pyschologists won't be able to wear Nikes or use Google at some point.

Interesting discussion. I'd add that in my world (medical), the consensus is that while alcohol is technically legal, working while under the influence impairs your judgment, and I'd even say indicates an impaired judgment to not recognize that. We have professional boundaries that you don't work while intoxicated, on anything.

A drink of alcohol is out of your system in an hour. How long is marijuana in your system? For chronic users it's detectable in your urine for up to a month. Police are giving out DUI's for those intoxicated on marijuana and driving -- why? It affects your reaction time, and you can't say it doesn't change how you feel about things. That's the whole point of using it. And therefore if it's effecting how you think and react, isn't it effecting your performance, and thus impair you from being in a good place to assess whether you're impaired or not?

Just some other thoughts.

OP, I would be very careful with cannabis if I were you! Look at how it absolutely ruined the careers of Carl Sagan and Lester Grinspoon! Illegal drugs are bad, and they are bad because they are illegal. Just remember that and you'll be fine...

Whether a person agrees or disagrees with the fairness of a law, that doesn't change the consequences of breaking that law. Having any kind of drug related mark on your record will be problematic. There are already enough hurdles to navigate during training, no sense adding more hurdles if you can help it.

I'm a Libertarian and believe individuals should be able to do whatever they would like as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of another person, but that isn't how our legal system works. Licensing boards will not look favorably on any history of drug use/abuse.

Originally Posted by nitemagi

Interesting discussion. I'd add that in my world (medical), the consensus is that while alcohol is technically legal, working while under the influence impairs your judgment, and I'd even say indicates an impaired judgment to not recognize that. We have professional boundaries that you don't work while intoxicated, on anything.

A drink of alcohol is out of your system in an hour. How long is marijuana in your system? For chronic users it's detectable in your urine for up to a month. Police are giving out DUI's for those intoxicated on marijuana and driving -- why? It affects your reaction time, and you can't say it doesn't change how you feel about things. That's the whole point of using it. And therefore if it's effecting how you think and react, isn't it effecting your performance, and thus impair you from being in a good place to assess whether you're impaired or not?

Just some other thoughts.

I don't think anyone in psychology would disagree with you that working while under the influence of alcohol (or marijuana) is unethical. I'd imagine the situation Pragma mentioned (i.e., intoxicated professor) happened in a non-professional environment, as get-togethers with faculty members outside of school tend to be a fairly common occurrence.

Then again, I could be wrong, and Pragma's professor might've actually shown up to supervision drunk.

I was surprise tested at an external practicum (hospital) site- i.e. I had to get drug tested within the hour that same day, so no chance to detox or find someone else's pee or anything.. Thankfully I don't do drugs and so was fine. But I can imagine this practice would trip up many people!

Originally Posted by AcronymAllergy

I don't think anyone in psychology would disagree with you that working while under the influence of alcohol (or marijuana) is unethical. I'd imagine the situation Pragma mentioned (i.e., intoxicated professor) happened in a non-professional environment, as get-togethers with faculty members outside of school tend to be a fairly common occurrence.

Then again, I could be wrong, and Pragma's professor might've actually shown up to supervision drunk.

No not on the job, at a social event. With some supervisors, perhaps it would explain a few things if it WERE on the job

I know people in just about every medical specialty that like to tie one on from time to time (surgeons, nurses, etc). I don't see it as a big deal as long as it is not to the extreme and does not affect their work (e.g., going to see patients hungover). In my program, it was not unusual for supervisors to buy their students drinks. It is a slippery slope.

It is a little different than the original topic, but what about non-recreational use of things like pain medication? Can a psychologist or a physician take prescribed medications that may have an adverse impact on concentration, memory, and judgment and still see their patients?

Legal vs. Illegal is an interesting issue to me, particularly when we are sprinkling ethics in to the discussion.

Originally Posted by Pragma

It is a little different than the original topic, but what about non-recreational use of things like pain medication? Can a psychologist or a physician take prescribed medications that may have an adverse impact on concentration, memory, and judgment and still see their patients?

THIS....is a much more interesting discussion, at least to me. For example, if a clinician dx'd with bipolar is suddenly thrust into a manic episode, should they see patients? How about if they have back surgery and are on a significant amount of opiates? It probably comes down to a case by case basis...though it'd be interesting to talk about.

Originally Posted by nitemagi

A drink of alcohol is out of your system in an hour. How long is marijuana in your system? For chronic users it's detectable in your urine for up to a month.

You're referring to marijuana metabolites which is not indicative of intoxication. It's not like someone who smokes pot regularly is high for a month.

Originally Posted by AnnoyedByFreud

You're referring to marijuana metabolites which is not indicative of intoxication. It's not like someone who smokes pot regularly is high for a month.

Being "high" may be independent from impairment d/t use. Which really brings up how one draws the line as to "impairment." Plenty of evidence that effects are chronic not acute, though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7776840
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20217055
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18519827
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15925403

Really not trying to turn this into a pro/con THC war. I'm fairly impartial except when you walk into my clinic actively psychotic. Just pointing out that there is evidence to consider.